A176 Adventist Pastor Endorsed Spousal Rape?

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Hello and welcome back to absurdity.
My name is Ryan Becker and I am

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joined by our elegant cohost, Henry
Johnson, and we are thrilled today.

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Not Really, actually, we're pretty
bummed about this one, but it is

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an important one for us to do, and that is simply because on absurdity

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we talked about all things absurd in
religion, culture and society, and one

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of the true tests of the integrity
of this show is that we're willing to

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do it when the absurdity happens in
our own backyard. Sure R. and

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we have talked a lot about things
happening in the evangelical world. We've talked

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a lot about things happening in the
cult ishue world, we've talked about I

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mean just this just last year,
we did two episodes on the the Josh

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dugger stuff, which is religiously tied
and it's easy to criticize when it's when

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it's outside, but it's a lot
harder to criticize and be a hundred percent

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honest when you have to look in
the mirror a little bit. Now,

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when we say that, though,
we're not saying Henry and I did something

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dumb, but rather the something is
happening in the denomination that we belong to,

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which is the seventh, the adventist
church, and we felt it important

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that we don't stay quiet about it, but rather we we talked about it

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too. So yeah, it's you
may have heard about it because it actually

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made rounds outside of adventism, and
if you if you haven't, then we'll

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give you some background to you.
But I am Henry. Do you want

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to for those who have no idea
what adventism is, can you give like

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a like a Good Luck Thirty Second
Synopsis Or a Minute Synopsis of like what

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This denomination actually is? All right, this is way oversimplified, but the

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short is it is a denomination that
came out of a great, second great

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awakening in the United States and the
s and s primarily in something called the

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millerite movement. That was started by
a lay baptist preacher and he believed,

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through his study of the Scriptures,
that the second coming of Jesus was imminent,

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and his followers came out of a
lot of different denominations at that time,

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although it was primarily bankrolled, interestingly
enough, by methodist pastor in the

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northeast. But in any case multi
denominational front. They set a date for

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Jesus coming in eighteen forty three,
then reset it again for eighteen forty four.

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And for all of you that have
any religious background going wait, can

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anyone know the day in the hour
of Jesus was returned? Ah, yeah,

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yeah, you're right. They were
wrong. It collapsed obviously when,

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surprise, the Lord did not return, and out of that came several different

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denominations for different reasons. And we're
not getting into that history because I've already

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gone past thirty seconds. But the
short of it is about the time of

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the American Civil War, one group
that came out of that millerite movement finally

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established the seventh day adventist church.
The name says primarily the two big things

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they were known for at the time. They believed in worshiping on the seventh

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day of the week versus the first, so Saturday versus Sunday. There's the

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seventh day, and then advent,
like Christmas that we just passed. Think

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they're looking forward to the second advent
of Christ and that started a movement that

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now has twenty two million active members. I think there's more than that on

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the books, but that's on the
books and, as we all know,

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books aren't necessarily accurate. So in
any case it's a worldwide church now,

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existent and all. But I think
fifteen countries, at least officially, and

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we also we run the second largest
private hospital system behind the Roman Catholic communion,

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and are very active in private education. Hospital system that we also have

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the second largest education system in the
world, I believe so, as well

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as far as privately run. So
yeah, Church has been active, it

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has been involved, it has a
history of being active in their communities and

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you know, if you want to
find out more, you sure you can

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find it, but just know that
for today this is a established church,

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which means something. Bom Bom bomb, it means bureaucracy and inertia and all

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the things you would expect whether you
called Yourself Catholic, baptist, methodist,

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episcopal, Presbyterian. You know,
Jove is what is whatever, although to

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be fair, I think joe is
witnesses are a little anyway, point is

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insert your name here and just begin
to think, oh, this is going

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to be good, yes, go
right. And one big have you hat

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to understand this story well, is
that the Administrach does have layers of its

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structure, and so pastors, for
example, that this is the part that's

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relevant. Pastors are not necessarily employed
by their local church directly, but are

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employed by one level of kind of
the next layer of church structure, which

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is a conference, which typically covers
about an area the size of a state.

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So I think Florida Conference Carolina Conference
is actually both Carolina's. So they

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those regions, though, are similar
in in size, and so the employment

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and a lot of stuff is handled
at the conference level versus the local church

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level, and that is an important
caveat to this. So back in November

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a story broke and it broke are
on the same time that I got married

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and and Henry, I think you
were. We're still away in jump school.

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I don't tail end of Oct totally
remember, but yeah, but this

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story broken we were on break,
so we didn't cover it originally. But

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pastor known as doctor because he does
have a PhD, Dr Burnette Robinson,

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who was the pastor of the grand
concourse seventh, they adventist church in the

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Bronx New York, and he was
a part of the I believe it was

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the Greater New York conference and he
was during, during a sermon, which

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we can't find. No one can
find like the full sermon at this one.

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We can only find the one clip
that was that was shared. I

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think it's Bob moved. Yeah,
he shared a clip or are he shared

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in a moment of his sermon where
he essentially said, and there's a trigger

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warning over all of this now,
he basically said that if you know,

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if man, if you're going to, if you are going to, I

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would say to you, gentlemen,
this is what he said. I would

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say to you, gentleman, the
best person to rape is your wife.

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Now it has become legalized rape.
And he was there's no context in which

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that statement on its own or like
that, that statement fits. That is

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correct and less. The context is
condemning the statement like this is so brain

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dead wrong. That and inappropriate,
and rightfully so, went viral for all

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the you know praises. Yeah,
wrong and right reasons, which is accountability.

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He the the Greater New York conference
a few days later did release a

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statement that essentially said we don't condone
this. We're actually going to be increasing

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the education towards our pastors and and
and all conference staff and and members.

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But they release a statement, also
saying that Robinson deeply regrets the statement and

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knows it caused injury and has given
an unqualified apology. The conference that that

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Robinson had been put on immediate administrative
lead leave, but within a few days

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he then was no longer employed by
the conference. What I find interesting about

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this is you can definitely tell lawyers
got involved, because for them to say

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Robinson deeply regrets instead of Robinson,
like he's the one that had the podium

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and in my Oveni he should have
been the one to apologize and and the

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only statement on stay out after like
The Washington Post pick this story up.

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Oh Yeah, all of this happened
after the video went viral and there was

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one the the person who shared it
is someone who is Dr Sara McDougal.

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She's or not doct I'm sorry,
Sarah McDougall. She is a license counselor

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and works a lot in abuse recovery. She's a survivor of abuse herself and

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a huge advocate in in for abuse
awareness, recognizing signs of abuse in your

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churches and she does a lot of
training as well as counseling, and she

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is we're actually I'll just link her
stuff in the show notes and episode description

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so you can check her out because
she's great. She's been on this show

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before and she is a friend.
I greatly respect the work that she does.

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She's the one who, when some
member shared it with her, she's

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the one who gave this kind of
kicked this off as far as it's as

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far as it's virality was concerned.
But in a comment on your riginal little

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clip from the she's not the one
who's got the clip. Someone else.

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Someone else sent it to her,
but it was her post. I think

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that originally got all the eyes when
I did go go viral, and I

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would say there was one comment that
she I believe she had shared that a

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source and she does work directly with
a lot of church organization. So I

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don't take this comment just as here
say, but I do remember for seeing

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her say that up until it went
viral. The the conference response was essentially

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that was really dumb, don't do
it again, and a slap on the

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wrist. So the public accountability is
what is what drove a kind of remorseful

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statement and then an apology from Robinson. But the reason we're bringing this up

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now is because yeah, do you
want to do you want to talk about

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what what happened? Is Now the
reason we're doing right now? No,

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no, you can still entra I'm
just going to say this. It's not

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that we want to preface it this
by saying it's not that we turned a

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blind eye to it. There was
just stuff going on in life and and

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when it looked like he was out
of employment, we were kind of like,

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well, situation resolved. Good,
it resolved. We don't know all

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the particulars, but, you know, pray for those that are hurting and

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glad he doesn't have a platform to
speak, or at least not in our

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church. And then Duntn'tn't Ryan keep
going. This is why we're talking about

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it. Yep, on or in
early January, Pastor Robinson now no longer

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employed. Our Doctor Robinson, he
showed up in a church event in at

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the conference office in Jamaica. Yes, I free for this, so he's

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left of the country for this and
an interview with I believe it was their

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conference president, and he goes off
in this interview and talks about his experience.

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And here is the and will link
to the clip in the show notes

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for you too. But he says
that he maintains that everything in the sermon

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was actually empowering to women and that
his life has been woven around women.

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He describes the handful of women in
his congregation as malicious, calling them the

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gang of five and blaming them for
posting the clip. He defines the women

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who posted the sermon segment as agents
of Satan seeking to harm him by posting

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his own words. I love that
that that's a direct quote, all of

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it, a direct quote from Sarah
macdougal's actual facebook post where she summarizes the

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clip itself, but you can see
the clip as well. He derides his

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administrative leadership for going into a panic
and he says they pandered under pressure and

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did nothing. I did not get
the defense of any of them, is

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what he claimed. And he claims
he had already planned to retire and simply

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moved his retirement date forward. So
he made a preemptive strike by choosing to

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retire early. What the way I
read that, and here that is I

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chose to quit so they couldn't fire
me, so I keep my benefits.

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That is the that is quite literally
all I see there, and to me

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this I mean Henry. I don't
know about you, but this really strikes

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me as someone who would give an
unqualified apology for the statement that they so

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clearly regret making in their sermon in
the position they took. I I mean

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I see full evidence of that original
statement released in New York at the time

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of his retirement, where it said
that he was so very sorry for the

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hurt and pain that it was caused. And and I see it as a

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man that, true to principle,
is standing for the rights, hopes and

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ambitions of women by meticulously undermining and
slandering them and not even giving them human

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agency, are even giving them names, and then leaving the country and his

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great wisdom and courage to therefore sit
behind a computer screen and say they're garbage.

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Yes, yes, I see much
apology and hope right here. Yep,

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and I think that was sarcasm,
by the way. Yeah, so,

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let's be clear. This is this
is dangerous and and entirely inappropriate empowerment

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of someone who does not deserve to
be on a platform at this point,

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who is ruined that privilege and had
that privilege taken from them. In fact,

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the Greater New York conference was even
quoted by, I believe, bet

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as saying like he won't be serving
in any something administ church, and I

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think the caveat to that is the
only the only thing they have control over

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as whether he serves in a church
in the Greater New York conference, they

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don't have control of that outside of
the conference. So correct. It is

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a statement that is removed his credentials
which if he retired. Bureaucratic standpoint,

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yeah, so it the problem with
this, on to on top of the

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empowerment and enabling with in this part
of church culture, is that it means

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that the statement that the Greater New
York conference made, there's there's kind of

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one of three possibilities. Either one, this is the way that Robinson always

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felt, and so he lied about
the apology in order to get in order

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to be able to retire instead of
being fired. Number two. The second

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possibility is that he he lie or
he did apologize and either didn't mean it

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or no, no, he did
apologize, and then now there's revisionist history

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and he's like no, you know
what, I'm actually angry about this.

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And now he's kind of though his
statement about making a preemptive strike by retiring

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early to me says that's not the
case. But or three that the the

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conference lied about the apology altogether.
I am more likely in the first camp

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of the apology itself being a lie, not the conference statement being a lie.

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Right, and I can see that
conference leadership choosing, administration choosing to

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just go with it the second they
had it because of because of the legal

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protection to I wanted done and just
be done with it. They want to

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be past it. But it castle
light on that because that's problematic. And

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it's problematic because it really seems that
they didn't take appropriate steps to educate him

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as to why this was inappropriate to
I don't know what they did, but

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it seems like there was really no, nothing, and are again retire what

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to a certain extent. Yeah,
power do they have? They can't compel

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the individual to go do anything.
Yeah, yeah, this is add to

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the list. But also bothers me
is not just that side of it.

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What bothers me is now there is
another church entity. Yep, right.

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So we're all supposed to be part
of one big world church and you would

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think there was certain cooperation or something. In other words, let me get

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the benefit of the doubt. The
president of the Jamaican Conference, from North

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Jamaican conference or more North Jamaican Union, whichever one it is. I forget.

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I'm not just up to our structure
elsewhere. But for there is no

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way they couldn't have even done a
five minute Google search and known anything about

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what transpired. I mean they would
have had to have it. No enough

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to either in I mean to invite
this person on this program, because I

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don't think he liked went around the
world trying to find who would put him

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on, but maybe you did,
I don't know. But to invite him

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onto an official church program because I
think this is like a program that this

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president, on behalf of the Church
in Jamaica, hosts once a week pretty

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regularly, something like that. So
you're using church recent it's a North Jamaica

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conference. Okay, North Jamaica Conference. So you're using church resources to give

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a platform to someone that another entity
in the church has removed or at least

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allowed to cease employment, and then
you give him that program not to figure

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out repentance or to talk about,
you know, the wounding of whatever and

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why this was in approach, but
you basically give a platform for this individual

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to do revisionist history and then further
attack and maim and harm women and ways

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that this was the irony of it. Right again, there's no context,

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like you said it, in which
the statement if there's anyone you're going to

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rape, rape your wife is appropriate. But if he wanted to argue somehow

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with this, is out of context. And Biblical marriage where. Now he's

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moved on from rape of the wife
to women are agents of Satan. Don't

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get me started on that theology right, which is not unique to adventism.

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It's the wider Western Christian world and
their headship theology and bad views about women.

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We talked about this some of the
dugger episodes. But you give them

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a platform that seemingly then is endorsed
also by the president. You Watch the

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clip and he seems only too supportive
of everything coming out of this guy's mouth.

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It's not like the guys saying this
stuff and then the presidents like Whoa,

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okay, yeah, note, we're
done now. He's just Kinda like

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or her, her or front whatever. This bugs me because so much either

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about a breakdown in the bureaucratic system
a breakdown in the individuals in question.

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And again I don't know them.
They'd be really easy for me to go

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and be like off with the North
Jamaican conference president's head, like he needs

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to quit, and that might be
the clip somebody to all the sudden ssides

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to cut out of this. But
in context my points, I don't know.

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But I do know. On what
planet is it right to offer the

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interview Comma, with me not knowing
everything, if, once the interview starts,

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it's this guy giving all this drawball
and gross slime and then you not

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only air it, because I don't
think it was live, or if it

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was, you leave it. I
was live. They do. They do

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regularize it's it's the live on facebook. That's right, but you don't do

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anything to distance yourself from it,
don't do anything to counteract it and seemingly

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put the Church's stamp of approval on
it, which is not only undermining to

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the denomination as a whole, I
think it's a disservice to the Greater New

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York conference that got rid of him
or allowed him to step down. So

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now you're we're like murdering each other
on the same boat and you know,

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I just this is bad. It's
just absolutely bad and unacceptable. I don't

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know what they were thinking, how
anybody was thinking. If they have some

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sort of communications director, they were
either on acid or not involved or whatever,

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because I don't know how they allow
this to go online and and so

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far I've heard nothing in response to
this. Was Why we want to talk

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about it, like wait, what, you just platformed this guy and everybody's

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like whatever, and that was the
entire which tells me that that's what they

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exactly what they intended to do.
And I bet you I'm actually going through

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their facebook right now to see if
they if they have left it up,

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and can't fully tell if they if
they have or not. But the to

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me, this also speaks of the
danger of how manipulative people can be,

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when people are like like, he
showed his true colors and he shows what

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he's willing to believe, and then
he did it again on this platform.

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And yet there are still places that
he's going to be able to go,

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to be able to share what he
believes and to spread toxicity and in this

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way, and this is the exact
kind of thing that contributes to ongoing abuse,

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harassment silencing of women in our churches. It's the exact thing that keeps

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them in with a glass ceiling over
their head of only being able to go

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so far and only be able to
do, you know, so much in

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the church. It perpetuates every single
problematic part of a patriarchal church structure in

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church society and it is it's disgusting. On Burnett Robinson like that. That's

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like the easy part of life of
this episode is condemning what he's said and

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done and what he's doing. But
he is not the only person that has

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gotten away with something like this.
Yeah, and this, and this shows

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massive loopholes in the bureaucracy of a
world church that you could drive a trust

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through. Because, and this is
not the only incident that we've seen.

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And again, this isn't like wow, wow, bash the the thing,

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but I mean it's just relevant to
the topic. Too often, I've seen,

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once the lawyers get involved, once
the church bureaucracy decides it has to

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start moving, they always seemingly default
to giving the best possible outcome to the

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victimizer than the victim. HMM.
And and whether it's intentional or not,

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they allow certain loopholes to give platform
and, okay, kind of parachute landings

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to these people. So, for
example, this might be a little nerdy

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insight into the workings of the Church. That needs to be understood. When

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they allowed him to retire Greater New
York. Now we're backing up to the

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initial incident. The way our system
is, you would think, okay,

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he retires, he gets his benefits, but there is one key benefit that's

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not considered retirement that he got to
hold on to that I think impacts this

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that's bugging me in our system because
this is not that the seventh day have

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in his church is not one that's
a bunch of into it's not a loose

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coalition of independent churches. Okay,
so say something like if you're in the

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Western world, you might are in
in North America you might be more in

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noticeable of Southern Baptist, you know, kind of systems where the Individual Church

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runs basically everything and they just are
loosely associated with the denomination for theological purposes

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and mission. This is much more
whereas its it. We said before,

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the pastors are all employed by the
denomination and I think there's some benefits to

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that, and that's a different topic
for another time. But the point is

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the credentialing of them. In other
words, there's licenses and ordinations that take

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place. So basically something that the
denomination does to say this person is trained,

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this person has a right to seek
for the church, this person has

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a right to act on the church's
behalf in certain things. We have this

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kind of system and there's been debates
in our church about women and being ordained

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and all those other stuff different issues. But the point is I would assume,

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I believe, this pastor is ordained. He'd been in the church long

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enough, he'd probably gone through the
system, he's received an ordination credential and

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what that means from a church perspective
in our global church is that once someone

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is ordained, because this is not
independent churches, it's a global church,

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once an individual is ordained they have
the right to fulfill the duties of a

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pastor in two unique ways. One, they can operate anywhere in the World

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Church with that ordination. If your
licensed, you can only operate in the

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entity that's licensed you. So if
he's ordained, that means he can go

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to Jamaica, he go to Russia, he could go wherever and he technically

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has the right to baptize, preach, teach, open closed churches, etc.

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As he wishes. Okay. And
the second thing, right, is

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that he can do all of that
even if not employed by the church.

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So an entity of the church.
So you don't have to be on the

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payroll to do this. So when
he retired, it did two things.

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He not only got to keep his
benefits, but he keeps his ordination credential,

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which allows other entities, whether knowingly
or unknowingly, like it's interesting to

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me this happened outside of the country
because it might be a teeny bit harder

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to see. But okay again,
come on, Google. Right, he

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could go to a Jamaica, he
could go to Spain, he could go

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to wherever. And if they're not
really in the know about what you did

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in another part of the world field, you can just show that credential and

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be like I'm a pastor, I'm
a good standing or else I wouldn't still

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have this thing. And let me
preach, let me go back into my

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career, let me do whatever.
And and it gives an excuse for people

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like North Jamaica Conference. Again,
I'm not giving them as much excuse because

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Google, I mean, you know, but to turn around and go well,

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he's still a pastor. What were
we supposed to do about it?

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And, and this is what angers
me, there should have been either some

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sort of censure, or maybe not. Initially. Okay, let me let

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00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:45.240
me phrase it this way. Maybe
not initially, maybe he lied to them,

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he's apologetic, whatever. But now, especially that we're seeing there seems

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to be no contrition, no recognition
of wrong. In fact, now a

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campaign to go harm other women and
defend nobody but himself. Those credentials need

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to be gone. He does not
need to have the official endorsement of the

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church anywhere. If he wants to
go run around the globe trash and women,

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he can do it without the official
premiere of the Church as a function,

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which means now unions, which is
a level above these conferences that are

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involved in that. I mean,
I have no shame in saying, and

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00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.200
it's kind of weird to say because
I'm employed by the church and they might

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00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:25.960
not like this, but someone needs
to haul in before a union and either

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temporarily remove those or remove those ordination
credentials. This is unacceptable. Until he

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00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:34.119
gets help, he needs to stop
getting given a platform by the church to

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harm other people. Yeah, well, and they're I do want to be

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fair to churches in other countries or
church leaders in other countries when, when

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something like this happens, just because
it's viral in America does not mean it's

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viral everywhere. And if someone does
have ordination, no one's checking. No

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00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:56.799
one's calling their conference and saying,
Hey, is this person okay? Is

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00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:00.680
there any reason why we shouldn't?
That's never that just doesn't happen because the

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00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:06.079
ordination is supposed to serve as that
kind of official stamp of approval. But

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00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:11.839
the the it'd be one thing if
this interview wasn't about this at all and

351
00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:15.799
he was just there to talk about
ministry or in general or t are at

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00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:18.160
a local church. That's what I'm
saying. What I'm saying is it be

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00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.720
different if this was like a local
area where it's not very likely they would

354
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.480
know about this. I can understand
where a church invites a pastor to preach

355
00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:33.160
or do something not having any clues
about about what happened, and to North

356
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:37.200
Jamaica's credit at least they removed the
live stream. I can't find any record

357
00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:40.319
of it. It skips from January
five to January eight and this was on

358
00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:45.640
January seven that the stream actually took
place. I know these is. They

359
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:51.079
get it. laterly interviewed him about
this yet and intentionally interviewed him about the

360
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:53.400
topic that it happened. So that's
that's what I'm saying. There's no yes,

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00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.240
isn't like, oops, they didn't
know. Let's give them a little

362
00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:00.839
bit of a pass. This is
there's no way they didn't know. Yeah,

363
00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:03.839
and that's that's the dipth. That's
what I'm trying to get to.

364
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:06.160
Is like. That's the difference here. It be one thing if it was

365
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some local church randomly that that wouldn't
realistically know about this, but this is

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00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:12.720
way too close to the US.
Too many people know about it and he

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00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:18.119
was specifically given a platform to talk
about his perspective of it and they never

368
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:22.640
pushed back on it. NOPE,
it is. It is mean. I

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00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:26.720
be mad if I was the president
of the the Greater New York conference.

370
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:32.720
I'd be furious because this is now
your contemporary somewhere else sticking it to you.

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00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:36.480
So you're not helping them get out
of legal liability either or deal with

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00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:38.599
the trauma that they've been left with
because he left his church. It's still

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there. On that conference, I
mean, and there's still yeah, there's.

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As far as I know, I
can't find any statements about this.

375
00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:49.319
If there were any, I'm sure
there were phone calls made and emails him.

376
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:55.160
You know, emails exchanged and meetings
happen, but there's nothing about this

377
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:57.119
that says we regret this, we're
sorry. It looks like they just deleted

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00:27:57.160 --> 00:28:00.960
the live stream to do the the
lesson, the bare minimum, to remove

379
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:03.720
it, and even then it was
just probably to remove it to avoid that,

380
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.799
you know, the terrible comments,
and we don't want people continually taking

381
00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:14.000
taking these things out of context.
And it is a this is a disgusting

382
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:18.680
interview and the fact that it was
platformed like this is is even even more

383
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:23.519
disgusting to me. Like I said, Oh, this is yeah, okay,

384
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:27.279
I forgot about this. He did
say during the conference interview. This

385
00:28:27.319 --> 00:28:30.920
is what Robinson said. No Man
had is the right to rape, neither

386
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:33.559
his wife nor anyone. Rape is
a crime, it's criminal. And yes,

387
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:40.319
a man can rape his wife because
sex must be mutual consent. If

388
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:42.960
she says no, let it be
no. So he makes that comment of

389
00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:47.000
Yes, a man can rape his
wife. It's not like a Provi he's

390
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.920
just saying like, like literally,
it's possible because it requires mutual consent.

391
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:52.680
If that's really what he believes,
then why did he say the other thing

392
00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:56.920
and why was this so difficult to
apologize for, like, but what he's

393
00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:02.720
doing saying they misunderstood me on it. It's their fault. This is this

394
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:06.359
is gas lighting. It's all in
your head, that what you think I

395
00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:10.279
did is wrong it. This is
all on you, not me. I

396
00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:12.680
didn't do anything and now you've ruined
my ministry because of it. That,

397
00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:17.759
to me, is disgusting. And
the other go out and ruin five other

398
00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:21.640
people that I didn't even know about
before this, who know even whether they

399
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:26.440
are and crush them because I'm going
out, so I'm taking people out with

400
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.079
me. On top of the fact
that we already are dealing with in our

401
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:37.519
church a growing division between different parts
of of our Global Church of differences in

402
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:42.000
opinion, in many cases differences of
theology, and difference in policy, as

403
00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:47.200
all of those relate to it and
and what policies extend out to the to

404
00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:52.720
the global church, and things like
this do nothing to help unify because it

405
00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:57.160
literally is. This is what happened
and this is what it does is it

406
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:03.039
paints his victimization as a as a
product of Western civilization, in Western culture

407
00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:07.319
and this idea of cancel culture,
and you know, all of this stuff

408
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:14.319
that and and it further stereotypes people
are a further stereotypes America and Western civilization

409
00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:18.160
against parts of the world that may
view US differently and that we've already had

410
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.359
been having troubles building more positive relationships
with in order to work through some of

411
00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:25.319
the significant issues that we have to
deal with. So people who only hear

412
00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:30.880
robins inside. That's that's all there. Like that just perpetuates all of this

413
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.880
like it continually. And their layers
and layers on top of we could get

414
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:40.519
into we're not going to because partially
we don't fully understand it, but there

415
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:45.880
are significant cultural layers to to what
what factors contribute to them platforming him like

416
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:52.000
this, and they're theological stuff that
that are theological errors that lead to it

417
00:30:52.039 --> 00:31:02.559
as well. and to me,
the thing that I struggle with in all

418
00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:07.319
of this is I have a video
on my youtube channel that I posted a

419
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:08.519
year and a half ago, I
think. Yeah, I was about a

420
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:14.319
year year, a little over a
year ago, where I basically said hey,

421
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:19.680
Dave Ramsey is not someone that we
should be endorsing or following, and

422
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:23.759
read an article where he called minimum
wage workers or low wage workers, a

423
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:29.279
a eight dollar an hour twerps.
On top of the other slew of things

424
00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:33.519
that he is done, but none
of I would say that and argue that

425
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:37.000
none of the things that I've seen
him do, or or not I've seen,

426
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:41.680
but that we've seen in the news, that he has reportedly done to

427
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:45.559
me, or as bad as stuff
like this. They're bad, but they're

428
00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:48.000
not as bad stuff like this.
And yet when he makes a comment about

429
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:51.119
eight dollar an hour teves, that
was enough for me to be like,

430
00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:53.799
see, we shouldn't, we shouldn't
be a part of this. And yet

431
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:57.640
this stuff happens in my church and
I think, man, I leave other

432
00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:04.559
organizations for far less than this.
So why am I still adventist? And

433
00:32:04.839 --> 00:32:08.559
ultimately, that's the that's the question
that's causing a lot of people to leave

434
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:15.000
in our age group especially, is
like, I don't need all it takes

435
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:16.960
as me to find out that,
like some, some company is using child

436
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:21.680
labor in the production of their clothing. And No, I don't buy clothing

437
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:25.960
there anymore. And yet this is, which good luck finding companies that don't,

438
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:32.319
that aren't like fully locally made,
and then this stuff happens. And

439
00:32:32.599 --> 00:32:37.160
I know that in commerce and in
the market in general, if there's to

440
00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:42.680
some degree, it's almost impossible to
avoid some form of unethical business practices and

441
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:47.839
Labor, Labor practices that contribute to
this. But man, that's a hard

442
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:52.279
question to ask, is why do
I stay when I was willing to leave

443
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:57.720
other things for so much less than
this, and that's something I'd love to

444
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:00.200
talk about and discuss. I don't
know, Henry, what your initial thoughts

445
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:04.519
are, if that's something that you've
asked yourself, but that is something to

446
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:08.200
me that is a critical question to
be able to answer. I mean,

447
00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:13.480
I definitely agree on and being a
critical question, and I would be remiss

448
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:17.319
if I didn't say that there are
many times, and it sometimes grows as

449
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:22.519
time goes by, where I'm torn
between a message that I believe in and

450
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:28.599
an institution that's supposedly a shepherding it
that is fast going down the garbage disposal

451
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:31.640
and you're right. I think that
would be an interesting discussion to have.

452
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:36.799
Now, admittedly, I'll just be
fully transparent with people. It is.

453
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:42.720
It is a somewhat nervous one to
have any online setting like this. I'm

454
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:45.480
not saying I wouldn't have it,
but just to be fair, people like

455
00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:47.640
yeah, well, why don't you
have it? And if we don't have

456
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:51.480
it for some reason for the next
several months, just recognize there's a lot

457
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:55.240
that goes into it too. Ryan's
a teeny bit spoiled now in this regard,

458
00:33:55.359 --> 00:34:00.200
but when you're employed by the very
thing you're now taking a bat to,

459
00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:06.039
it puts you in a very unique
position and that is kind of selfish,

460
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:07.320
and I meant it right off the
back, because obviously I eat and

461
00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:10.920
keep a roof over my head and
take care of my family with it,

462
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:15.199
and so I get totally why people
just roll over and don't have that conversation.

463
00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:17.840
So that's kind of a side I
it is one that needs to be

464
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:22.480
had, because I struggle with it
more and more. Like I just I

465
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:24.320
make no shame about it, I
love the seventh day I have in his

466
00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:30.800
message. The institution has even personally
burned me more than once and it becomes

467
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:37.039
extremely hard when other people affected in
those same situations walk away, and I

468
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:38.360
totally get why they do, and
then they look at you and go,

469
00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:44.199
well, I why are you still
there? All Right? Are you supporting

470
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.159
that then, or do you?
Are you a coward or you what you

471
00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:51.280
know? So I'm with you there. It is a struggle and that's another

472
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:53.440
reason why we're trying to be honest
and having this conversation in a public setting.

473
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:57.400
When garbage does happen. We don't
want to just be known as the

474
00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:00.480
people a yeah, it's easy to
poke it everybody else, because sometimes I

475
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:02.440
think that's the defense mechanism. We
just say everybody else is worse so than

476
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:07.920
I feel good about staying no,
we're all in this sinking boat in the

477
00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:13.760
sense that Western Christianity is corrupted itself
and taking a lot more interest in and

478
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:19.639
being American or being western than being
biblical. And that's another topic for another

479
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:24.679
time that we've alluded to and some
of our Christian nationalism conversations and and whatnot.

480
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:28.719
But as a whole, to swing
it back to this topic, I

481
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:32.679
think recognizing you're right, I don't
know everything, and recognizing, like you

482
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:37.039
just said, that there are some
cultural issues probably at play and there's a

483
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:42.000
whole lot of weeds we could be
digging through and get sidetracked on over this

484
00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:45.079
issue. But in short, I
think what makes me more confident to be

485
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:50.800
angry and vocal about this is that
you can strip all of that away and

486
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:55.000
still have a very basic, glaring
bad that I think there are ways you

487
00:35:55.039 --> 00:36:02.239
can quickly address the queer bad is
matter. We why whatever, one entity

488
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:07.440
of the church in one country had
someone cease being employed by it for things

489
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:15.400
they did that were hurtful. The
similar entity and another country then platforms this

490
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:20.880
individual to specifically talk about the harm
that was caused and then seemingly endorses a

491
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:29.960
revisionist, angry, further violating viewpoint
on it. And there's just silence.

492
00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:35.000
Yeah, and to me then,
on an administrative bureaucratic level, this means

493
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:38.800
something. This shows a lack of
contrition. Maybe there was then, but

494
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:42.920
I don't know if it was over
consequences or whatever. But the point is

495
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:46.360
they're obviously not contright now. They're
obviously not living a gospel centered way of

496
00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:51.559
addressing this in any sort of framework
that the church would agree to theologically,

497
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:58.920
no matter where it was. And
now he is using privileges the church has

498
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:05.960
given him ecclesiastically to seemingly accomplish this
mission which tells me you're right. It

499
00:37:05.960 --> 00:37:08.599
doesn't work for the church anymore.
I can't go in and like refire him

500
00:37:08.599 --> 00:37:13.360
and I can't whatever. But there
are certain things the church can still do,

501
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:19.239
and I think one of those is
remove his ordination period. Are I

502
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.400
mean, I don't we don't really
have a process for suspending it temporari but

503
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:25.639
something he needs to if nothing else
to protect our fellow brothers and sisters in

504
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:30.599
the World Church, like individual churches
that may have no clue what happened and

505
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:36.239
are going to give platform to this
guy to seemingly possibly either hurt women there

506
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:39.960
in his effort to hurt nameless women
over here. Are The point is,

507
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:45.280
I guess we can't trust these other
entities to either invest in it or no

508
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:50.039
or that's a loophole that the bureaucrats
need to fix. But at least in

509
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:55.039
this particular case, letting him retire
and keep his benefits didn't help anything,

510
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:59.239
and I'm sure legally we can't go
back and take his retirement, but the

511
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:01.800
church has every right to ordain and
credential who it will and who it won't,

512
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:06.119
and I think now it's proven that
until he gets help, he doesn't

513
00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:09.000
need to have the official endorsement of
the church in retirement or an active employment.

514
00:38:09.079 --> 00:38:14.920
So deal with it. Yeah,
well, I agree with with all

515
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:17.480
of that and and even in response
to my own question, the ultimate reason

516
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:21.920
that I'm still some day Adventis is
because I believe it like that. That's

517
00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:24.880
just the bottom line is of it's
because it's tied to my literal beliefs about

518
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:30.920
God, his relationship to the world
and what that means. And so because

519
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:34.239
of that, where else do I
go right? Where else do I go

520
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:37.639
that that I can find community among
people that that believe similar lead to me

521
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:44.480
and do life together with them and
without going in out of bitterness starting my

522
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:46.880
own thing or, you know,
trying to break off that way, out

523
00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:50.480
of out of spite, because I
don't want to build a community purely out

524
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:55.559
of spite to the thing I left. But throughout my time, especially in

525
00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:00.239
working in Youth Ministry, which I'm
no longer as Henry litted to, no

526
00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:02.400
longer actively pastoring, but I was
employed by the church for a number of

527
00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:07.400
years and I graduated from an Advice
University with a degree in theology with pastoral

528
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:10.679
prep in mind. And Whey,
the way, he didn't do anything wrong.

529
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:14.079
That's not why he's not working for
the Church and correct. I just

530
00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:17.639
in context, should probably yeah,
we should probably specify that. But in

531
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:21.920
my time doing ministry, I've I've
people have come to me saying I live

532
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:24.239
in this small town where this church
is either a dying church or it's toxic.

533
00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:27.800
I've been my family's gone here for
years. It's toxic and it's hurting

534
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:30.199
me. But there's this other church
that I've seen that is, you know,

535
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:34.719
just a Baptist Church or not denominational
or something, and and they're they're

536
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:37.039
like great, it's a great church. I've gone once with friends and it's

537
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:43.360
amazing whatever. And I'm like look, they end up torn, believing they

538
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:45.079
need to stick it out here versus
the other and what that tension is.

539
00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:49.239
And I'm like look, if one
is actively damaging your relationship with Jesus Christ

540
00:39:49.239 --> 00:39:54.239
and one is encouraging it, then
I would rather Jesus protect your faith in

541
00:39:54.280 --> 00:40:01.320
one outside of the denomination then have
it be destroyed by people inside. And

542
00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:07.480
I've that's just the bottom line and
I've never I am with you and understanding

543
00:40:07.480 --> 00:40:10.400
why people have left over things and
I and my line is different from someone

544
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:15.039
else's line. If someone has a
history tied to that, tied to marital

545
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:19.880
rape and abuse, I can understand
why they wouldn't want anything to do with

546
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:23.679
a denomination where a pastor ordained by
the denomination would say that, and who

547
00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:27.960
knows how many times he said it
before. I there's no fault in I

548
00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:30.480
don't find a fault in that.
It because you need to go where you

549
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:34.679
were safe and if you don't feel
safe somewhere, I understand it. But

550
00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:38.320
I also agree with with you here
and saying this is one or a few

551
00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:42.800
entities. And yes, this does
happen in a lot more places. This

552
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:45.719
place was just the live streamed incident. This happens in other churches, for

553
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:52.400
sure. Just look at the fall
of quite literally any megachurch pastor and several

554
00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:57.840
pastors just in general. There's a
pastor in Georgia that was just accused or

555
00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:04.320
arrested for false imprisonment, for running
a or false yeah, false imprisonment for

556
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:07.800
essentially came napping a very running claim
to be a pastor and he wasn't.

557
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:12.679
But yes, but there's I mean
that's that's just the bottom. You have

558
00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:15.480
it everywhere of every belief system.
You have people who abuse their religion in

559
00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:21.159
order to feed their narcissism, feed
their ego and gain power over others.

560
00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:23.360
That's just the bottom line wherever you
go, and you'll find it outside of

561
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:29.039
belief systems to the difference is that
at that point they're just using people and

562
00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:31.800
using what they know how to manipulate
people and are in order to do that,

563
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:36.159
which is the tools are different but
the person is the same. So

564
00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:40.559
I to me, the reason I
stay is ultimately I believe what I believe

565
00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:44.679
and there's no other way. There's
no other place I go that has that

566
00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:49.920
ultimate expression. And so I am. And there are quite a few adventis

567
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.639
that go through their entire lives and
never having to interact with the system on

568
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:57.719
a grand scale anyway, and everything
is just fine. So I think that's

569
00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:01.239
important to keep in mind and I
think it's an interesting conversation to have,

570
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:05.440
and I think this would be an
open call to anyone who has had similar

571
00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:08.599
experiences or who's struggled and wrestle with
that question themselves. I would love to

572
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:13.679
have them on and have you on
and to talk about your experience and to

573
00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:17.400
listen and learn. I hope that
Henry and I have demonstrated some form of

574
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:22.039
attitude that that is evidence that we're
not going to there's no condemnation from us

575
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:24.599
one way or the other. I
think we can be honest when we disagree

576
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:29.559
and do so respectfully. So I
would love to hear good, bad,

577
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:34.079
ugly, whatever, whatever kind of
experiences you have, let us know either

578
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:37.239
reaching out through the show notes or
comments if you're watching the youtube stream of

579
00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:42.559
this. All of that helps us
and helps us create quality content that can

580
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:45.440
help other people too, and if
your story can be helpful for someone else,

581
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:47.800
that's some of the best meaning I've
found from some of the worst things

582
00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:52.119
that have happened to me. So
that's an open called anyone really we'd love

583
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:57.679
to connect with you. But Henry, any any final thoughts from you on

584
00:42:57.719 --> 00:43:00.119
this, or is there any other
thing that you want to talk about before

585
00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:06.679
we close out? Just I again
I thank everybody for always listening to us

586
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:08.440
working through some of this, because
you get it's kind of a weird world

587
00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:12.800
we live in that we can thought
process some of this with a lot of

588
00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:16.960
people watching, and so sometimes that's
good and sometimes that can the rawness of

589
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:22.159
that can either not come across as
we'd like or further wound. So we

590
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:27.039
apologize and I apologize if you know
any kind of righteous anger or seemingly end

591
00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:32.679
righteous anger or whatever. It's further
traumatized anyone in that conversation, and thank

592
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:36.880
you for being patient with us.
Obviously is we're even grappling out loud with

593
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:42.000
like Ryan was saying. You know, where's that line individually in a world

594
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.119
where we're realizing just how more interconnected
we are? You know, you can't

595
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:50.280
just be a pilo under yourself.
And and probably just final thing I would

596
00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:53.679
say is maybe some of the anger
to this, even in me, is

597
00:43:53.719 --> 00:44:00.480
my own baggage with with things that
I've experienced from the institutionalized church, for

598
00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:04.400
sure, but also also be fair. I just finished I was a little

599
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:07.800
late to the party. I just
finished going through like all fourteen hours of

600
00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:14.000
the rise and fall of Mars Hill
podcast from Christian Day and I just finished

601
00:44:14.039 --> 00:44:16.760
that right as we had chosen to
talk about this topic. And for those

602
00:44:16.760 --> 00:44:21.320
of you who have no clue what
that is, that's talking about Mark Driscoll

603
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:24.559
and the rise and fall of the
Mars Hill Church in Seattle. He was

604
00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:30.400
kind of big and in Evangelical Christianity
for a while there. It's a great

605
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:34.119
podcast, by the way. I
know there's some people are like, well,

606
00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:37.000
it really offer any solutions or tell
this anything new? At least for

607
00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:39.800
me it was kind of some new
information and it was helpful to me.

608
00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:43.519
I think it's worth hearing for sure. So go. You know, they

609
00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:45.559
didn't ask for this, they're not
paying us, but go check out Christianity

610
00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:50.320
today's rise and fall of Mars he'll
podcast, because I think it deals with

611
00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:53.840
some of the issues that maybe they
kind of hint on this from another denominational

612
00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:57.400
perspective. This isn't me trying to
deflect and be like, Oh, look,

613
00:44:57.400 --> 00:45:00.280
it's not having a so good look
over there, but I'm just saying

614
00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:04.760
it. I remember finishing that feeling
kind of despondent and angry and then we

615
00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:07.400
were like, oh look what's happening
on our own church, and I was

616
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.519
like really. So anyway, thank
you for letting us kind of work through

617
00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:15.599
this and and giving us a platform, because it wasn't fun and we're still

618
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:19.760
wrestling with it. But I also
want to thank Ryan on air too,

619
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:21.519
because you know, he brought up
he's like, you know, we need

620
00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:24.719
to be fair to our listeners and
let him know that we're not just pointing

621
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:29.119
fingers everywhere. That you know we
want to be. We're trying our best

622
00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:30.400
to be fair across the board.
I said, yeah, let's do this,

623
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:35.280
so we felt like we needed to
do it now and maybe because of

624
00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:37.119
that there's other things I even needed
to work through before we did. But

625
00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:40.639
I'm glad we've had this conversation.
So thanks for putting up with us.

626
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:45.920
Yeah, absolutely, I you know, I will co sign your recommendation for

627
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:47.559
the rise and fall of Mars Hill. I think also the first two episodes

628
00:45:47.599 --> 00:45:52.880
give a great history and context for
the rise of the megachurch movement in general.

629
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:58.239
That I learned a lot in those
steps and marchrisches a great example of

630
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:02.519
the fall of leadership that doesn't come
from some specific catalyst of a like one

631
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:07.480
very obvious, blatant scandal, but
rather is a lot of things that are

632
00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:10.239
a lot more obscure and the harder
to prove from a you know, beyond

633
00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:14.679
a reasonable doubt, even though I
know that's a really more dambushing. Yeah,

634
00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:17.880
yes, and that's that's it's looking
at an aggregate of things rather than

635
00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:23.760
just the one specific catalyst, and
I think that's a really important thing to

636
00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:28.599
learn about. So I co sign
that absolutely and promis and he, by

637
00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:30.880
the way, totally nerd moment,
but their intro is one of the best

638
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:37.480
podcast Intros I've heard ever. I
love when the partner with Kings Kaleidoscope,

639
00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:43.800
who came out of Mars Hill.
That's the subtlety there. Is Not lost.

640
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:46.280
Nope, not at all. Yes, I and thank you for the

641
00:46:46.360 --> 00:46:50.719
kind words, Henry. We do
believe in trying to be I mean there

642
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:52.400
was an episode where I said something
really stupid in the middle of the episode,

643
00:46:52.440 --> 00:46:55.719
apologized to it for it profusely throughout
the rest of the episode and kept

644
00:46:55.760 --> 00:47:00.599
it in because that's integrity to us. Yeah, we can edit out mistakes,

645
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:05.320
but if we're just editing, if
we're trying to make ourselves look better

646
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:09.239
than we are or our behavior,
we're trying to hide bad behavior rather than

647
00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:14.800
just editing out like a like an
error or like an actual factual thing or

648
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:20.519
something, then yeah, that's that's
not integrity to me, and so I

649
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:22.400
believe that's important and we want to
do so with a cut with the topics

650
00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:24.599
that we cover. So thank you
of them for being on the journey with

651
00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:27.920
us. If you want more if
you want to know more about the AVIDENCE

652
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:31.639
church, as if this was some
sort of good advertisement for it. But

653
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:35.239
if you want to talk to us
about it, we're open to just conversations.

654
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:36.880
It's all you have to come on
the show to talk to us.

655
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:38.400
So you know, you can just
reach out and we would love to have

656
00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:42.880
I've had several conversations with people before
about any number of things and I'm so

657
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:45.840
grateful for the listeners that we've connected
with. But yeah, thank you everyone

658
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:49.440
for listening, for being a part
of this, this journey with us.

659
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:52.960
We we love you and appreciate you
and and the time that you've given us

660
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:55.679
as well and and the world that
you've allowed us to play in your lives,

661
00:47:55.719 --> 00:47:59.639
even if just for the duration of
our episodes. So thank you so

662
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:00.199
much everyone. We'll see you next
week.