When Self-Help Becomes Something We Do Together with Toni Jones

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Hi and welcome back to A Thought I Kept, a weekly podcast about the ideas that stay with us, when all the rest just didn't.
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Or maybe they did.
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I'm Claire Fitzsimmons, writer, author, coach, and co-founder of If Lost Dart Here.
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Every Monday on the show, I sit down with someone and I ask them one almost impossible question.
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What's the thought that you've kept?
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Because there are so many ideas thrown at us every single day, online, in books, in podcasts, in conversations, in wellness culture, in the news.
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And yet how many really stay and shift something and change our lives?
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This week's guest, Tony Jones, is the perfect person to get into this with.
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Because of the past decade, she's read a thousand, yes, a thousand self-help books.
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In 2017, Tony founded Shelf Help, the world's first dedicated self-help foot club.
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And that's when I first met her.
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It was two years into that journey when I interviewed her as one of the first spacemakers for our online guidebook to places that help make life better.
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Now, eight years later, Tony has built a global community inspiring 25,000 people to read, reflect, and apply self-development.
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Tony is also a bibliotherapist and she hosts the brilliant podcast, The Bibliotherapist, with Tanya Lynch, who has also been on the show talking about silver linings and creativity and ease.
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And the reason that we're also here talking today is that Tony has become a self-help author herself.
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She's the author of You, a Beginner's Guide, a pocket-sized guide shaped by this decade of being immersed in the world of self-help.
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So in this conversation, we catch up and we talk about what happens when you immerse yourself in self-help and what happens when you do so with others.
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We talk about the strange vulnerability of sharing parts of ourselves with others.
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We talk about overwhelm and the really complicated experience of trying to improve your life while also just living it.
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We talk about why people turn to self-help in the first place, whether books can genuinely change us, why the genre is often dismissed, what actually stays after all of the reading, and what Tony has learned from building a community around the idea that we were never meant to do all of this alone.
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So let's discover whether this week's thought is one that you will keep and carry with you into the week ahead, or maybe even beyond.
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Here's my conversation with Tony Jones.
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Hi Tony, welcome to A Thought I Kept.
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Hello, thank you for having me.
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Very, very happy to be here.
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Thank you.
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It's nice to connect after we've been kind of in touch virtually for many years.
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Yeah, because we spoke.
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I look back on this because we spoke eight years ago for the first time.
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Wow.
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I had just started if lost.
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You had, I think you were at your two-year birthday for shelf help.
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I was sat in my car with my kid in the background sleeping, waiting for my toddler.
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You were on some glamorous rooftop in London.
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And I was just thinking about this.
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I was like, gosh, how much has changed, but also how we've been quite consistent in what we're really interested in and what we're doing.
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And it's been really lovely seeing how shelf help has developed and this incredible community.
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And then your bibliotherapy podcast, and then the book, which is out right now.
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How has that all been for you?
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Like when you think back over that period, where are you now and what's that been like?
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Writing the book has been, it's just it's highlighted the wild ride that that has and the arc of development, I suppose, and growth and self-help.
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So I I have literally spent the last 10 years helping myself.
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So reading, writing, well, reading, doing, sharing self-help.
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So when I spoke to you, I think probably I'd, if it was eight years ago, I would have been reading self-help for about two years after burning out.
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I think 10 years ago is when I was at my probably lowest, like physically, mentally, all of it.
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And then I found self-help.
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And then two years in, I'd started self-help as a way to the which is my self-help book club, as a way to start sharing everything that I was learning.
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And so now that I've written my own book, which is a decade in and I've read a thousand self-help books, at least I've worked out because that's two books a week for 10 years.
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Easily I read that of self-help.
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Um, so I'm I'm kind of looking back, I look back at all the books that we've read as a community.
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That's how I've been really digging into my book and looking at what have been the biggest and most important themes.
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And even though at the time it felt a little bit like I chose these books quite at random, or I managed to get an interview with an author, or I liked the cover, or whatever reason I chose the book, I just I did I didn't feel like it was very strategic.
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But now when I look back, as always with hindsight, that lovely way of being able to look back and seeing patterns, which is what a lot of self-development is, isn't it?
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But I can really see an arc.
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And the first book was a book called Change Your Life in Seven Days.
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And quite a few people have like highlighted to me actually during this process that how interesting that when you when you're a journalist and you were working too hard and you were too busy and trying to do everything so quickly, you the first self-help book that you chose was about changing your whole life in seven days.
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Like, like spoiler, it takes longer than seven days to change your life, or not, like depending on on the mindset, I suppose.
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But yeah, that's been quite interesting to me.
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And the first few books that I chose were very much about like quick fix, what can I do?
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How do I what the I'm very much like, give me a plan, which is what my book kind of is as well, because I think it's what I needed.
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But and then I start going into more self-care, and then eventually like the somatics and mind-body, and and so there's very much the the development of shelf help, the book club, has very much gone alongside the development of me and and the business has as well.
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So that's been really interesting to reflect back on and just quite juicy.
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Like I'm looking back, I'm a book, I I scribble in books.
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I don't know about you, but same.
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I yeah, and and I and I know people either love it or hate it.
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So in my community, it's very like Mar Might, you're either for or against this.
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But I'm a scribbler, and so looking back in all these that we've read 64 books as a community since 28, 20, so 2017.
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Um, and it's just all the scribbles from my out of my head.
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So some of them, some of them seem pretty like I don't feel like it's me.
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Some of them I feel really sad about that she was in that place, some of them I feel like, oh, I can see what's happening here, and then I can get again see a real arc of progression and understanding myself more and getting to know myself more and just getting to like myself more, really.
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So that's been a real amazing part of writing this book.
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That's such a beautiful recognition that as you're developing this community, that you're really seeing your story and you're seeing what you needed at certain moments and who you were.
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And I've had that experience too, where I've I've looked back over books and I've underlined something and I've realized that that sort of acute kind of visceral like, oh my goodness, is that what I was thinking and feeling?
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And I've also had that moment of sharing books with people without really right realizing what I've underlined and sharing them with people and realizing that they're witnessing almost what I was going through by what I've underlined.
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And there's something so vulnerable in that, isn't there?
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And but you're doing that in community.
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So you're in this position of saying, like, okay, at this moment, at the beginning, I'm doing this quickly.
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I'm burnt out, I need to get through this period, I need something immediately, I need the seven days, I need to change my life.
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And then you're moving through this and you're showing the pieces of you that need maybe something about relationship, maybe something about nervous system, maybe something about I don't know, whatever it would be for your feelings, and and you're doing that learning in public and in community.
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Like, how how has that experience been for you that you are showing aspects of yourself as somebody that maybe wasn't used to sharing pieces of yourself before?
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It's very different.
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I didn't share at all before, ever, with anyone.
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Like I have loads of I'm really lucky I have loads of friends and I have a massive family.
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So I always have people around me.
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So I've I've always I've always had the opportunity maybe to be very open, but I just have have never, that's never been my style.
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So I was terrible at talking about my feelings.
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I was terrible at even acknowledging I had feelings for like until I literally got to my late 30s and found self-help and then started on picking this stuff.
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And I sometimes call like the shelf help, like an the accidental book club, because I started it because I needed it, because I was reading this stuff and it was setting off these literal light bulbs in my head, and then I wanted to share it.
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I think that's the journalistic background, probably, and the journalists in me wanting to share it.
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So I started this book club because I thought I need to connect with people who understand.
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So, like AA is when you're connecting with people who are going through something similar to you.
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I'd like, I feel like I need to do this with other people because my current friends and family are like, we have we get that it's helping you.
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We're not we're not that interested.
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So there was that side of it.
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But I don't think I ever realized that starting a self-help book club wouldn't would mean that I had to then start sharing about myself.
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Yeah.
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Because I suppose a book club is really you get together and it and it's always about the book and the themes, and it is what you think, there is opinions, but actually I was bringing people together to talk about these massive subjects.
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And book people generally are quite introverted.
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And people who are reading self-help, even though what I've discovered from running this community now, even though they really want to to connect with people to talk about this, they're not necessarily the kind they're not very comfortable talking about it with other people.
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So even getting into the room or getting into the Zoom room, ready to like let's dive into say it's anxiety or say it's relationships, that's what we're gonna be reading about.
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I still have to, Tony still has to very much lead this conversation because that's a that's that's me learning how to hold space, I think is the term for it, isn't it?
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And how to encourage people to connect over these themes.
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So the book's actually a brilliant tool for people to start connecting over themes that otherwise they might have found difficult, I think.
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You know, like there's they talk, they say, like if you're sitting in a car, you might have a conversation that's quite difficult because you're not making eye contact.
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So it's that you're you're in this kind of you're close to somebody, but you can you feel like you it's not too it's not too threatening.
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And I think when we're looking at the books, we can say, let's pull out a quote.
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How does that make you feel?
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And and we're referencing the books, so we're not just sitting there totally vulnerable.
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But yeah, very much I've had to become that person who opens up, oh, this is how I think about it, this is how it affects me, this is my experience of it.
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And that to me was completely alien and absolutely horrible.
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And I hated it for a long time until I didn't.
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And now I don't I now I have no, well, I don't have no feeling about it.
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Now I feel like I'm happy to share anything about me really, because I don't even I don't get the physical feeling of like, oh, cringe or embarrassment.
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Like I that's gone.
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I think because I've done it so much now, but also I just feel like it's so I can see how it is valuable to other people.
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So uh the long answer, the short answer to your question is yeah, I've had to very much, as we said, develop myself into someone who can be public-facing, who can take leadership of a group of people who need are ready to be guided to help, to, to kind of learn about themselves.
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So that has been a real like I've been I'm a journalist, I like other people's stories, I'm a good listener, I love watching people, and and I still do look like interviewing authors is my one of my favourite parts of shelf help.
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But yeah, along alongside that, with this book club that was started growing in popularity, I was then feeling this responsibility of this is something, and people are getting loads from it, including me.
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So the responsibility now and the work is to make to kind of elevate myself, I suppose, or upgrade myself or develop myself to a point where I am comfortable confident and comfortable and able to add real value, I think.
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I think this might bring us to your thought because it's so much about I think we can have this idea that self-help is something we do alone.
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And I think we did speak about this when I first met you because that was sort of the question that I had around it is that we do so much alone, we can get lost in ideas, we can get kind of disorientated sometimes by what we're supposed to be doing, how to be a person in the world, all the wellness advice out there.
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And there is something about this piece of reading self-help together that kind of activates it in a different way, that makes it more doable in a very different way.
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And so I wonder whether this might be a good moment to share the thought that you've kept and how that has helped you be in that community and keep going during those periods when you've maybe wanted to back away.
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Yeah, so it's actually so it's a quote.
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So it's a thought that's inspired by a quote.
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So, as someone who is in loves words and is in words a lot, a quote that I live by and love and share all the time, and I'll talk to you more about how that's happened, is by Brene Brown.
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And the quote is, and the thought is, we don't have to do all of it alone, we were never meant to.
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And that is from one of her books called Rising Strong, which came out in 2015.
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So bearing in mind, I started reading self-help in 2016.
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So Brene Brown, I'm sure anybody listening to this podcast will know who Brene Brown is.
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But what they might not know is that her, the TED talk that she gave, which is the power of vulnerability, which is the one that made her famous, that was from 2010.
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And I didn't realise it was quite that long ago.
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So that's um 16 years ago now.
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And that was a talk about the idea of you've already touched on this a little bit, Claire, the vulnerability that is needed to be able to connect properly to people.
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So when I say I was terrible at sharing feelings and terrible at sharing, I was terrible, terrible at sharing myself.
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And I very much thought that being share oversharing or sh sharing, I would call it oversharing maybe then, is was being needy and and I didn't ever want to be a needy person and I didn't ever want to put on people.
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I was very much wanted to help people and wanted to listen to people and thought they don't really want to hear what's going on for me.
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And that and I'm fine, I'm fine, it's all fine.
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So let's just not share.
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And then I think as I was going into my burnout and then leaving the mail, I then had a few years of freelancing, and that was my really most difficult time, I think.
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And this is when I started watching Brene Brown on repeat, listening to any podcast she was on, like with Glenn and Doyle with Oprah, because she was huge, right?
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Well, she is huge, Elizabeth Gilbert.
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So I really got into this.
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I went through that period too, yes.
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Yeah, just in just inhaling it.
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But I mean, then that is no bad thing, is it?
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Because for and then and from that, I just thought, well, she and Brene Brown is like, she's kick-ass, she's Texan, she's really like and I I think I relate to her because she is someone who went to therapy and was like, I don't want to be here.
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And I was very much like, I did the same, went to therapy, didn't really want to be there at the same time as I started reading the self-help books.
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And when she's talking about the idea of understanding that being vulnerable is actually the the bravest thing you can do, and it's what people need to be able to connect with you.
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So if you say we know that we want connections, we know we don't want to be lonely, but actually just having a surface connection isn't enough.
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If you don't show anybody anything of you, then they're not able to, it's not about helping you necessarily, they're just not able to connect with you.
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And there's another quote of hers, which is I think it's this I'm paraphrasing, but it's vulnerability is the the the first thing I want to see in you and the last thing I want you to see in me.
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And so it's like when you told me that you'd had a bad night's sleep because something happened with one of your children, I would connect with you, I would feel, I would feel for you, and I'd have empathy for you.
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And then why wouldn't I then want you to know what's going on for me?
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It's like it's a very human way of being.
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So I think Brene's work and all of that kind of era of work helped me understand that connecting with other people is actually the best way to start to get to know yourself and support yourself and understand yourself.
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So and the idea of you're not meant to do it on your own.
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It's like we are social beings, and being social to me 10 years ago meant going out every night and being on the list for every party and having lots loads of different friends and all different pockets of friends for different things.
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And I never gelled them together because I felt like I don't want to show those friends that side of me, I don't want to show those friends that side of me.
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And then I started leading this book club and left my job, so left that whole big part of my identity.
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And so I was having to find my way in new community and in new kind of ways of being, I suppose.
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So yeah, I love I love that quote and I love that thought.
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And the idea of self-help with friends has just really, since starting the book club, I can just see that it's it's it's it helps people read the books because it's a bit of accountability.
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So that's book club magic for you, but it also helps us see things from different perspectives and remember that we're not on our own.
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So I think the idea of reading a book about so Brene Brown's books are a lot of them are about like being imperfect and getting over imposter syndrome and all that kind of stuff.
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And so when you realize that other people are suffering from the same, it makes you feel less alone, and I think it makes you have more compassion for other people and yourself.
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Yeah.
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What was the impact of your existing relationships of starting to be more vulnerable and starting to share?
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Because there is a sense that you are learning how to be vulnerable, you're sharing more, you're building a community that is built for sharing in a sense, but you also have these existing relationships that maybe they weren't so used to Tony as a version that is deeply connecting with somebody or deeply feeling, even.
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Yeah, 100%.
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Well, um, the first time I remember the first time was a disaster.
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Well, it was it was not this is really important actually to say, I think, because it's great to say um tell people what you need or start sharing, or but if you're not, if if the relationships you have are not built on that, it doesn't mean that you can't.
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It just means that you need to go slowly with because people aren't, as you just said, really beautifully, people aren't used to it.
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So I was with one of my friends, and I think, and I don't have children, and we were talking about kids, and and I shared something about not wanting kids, like, and it was quite personal.
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So this is like, yeah, so this is probably eight years ago, and she didn't know what to do with me.
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She didn't know what to do with the information, and so she handled it really badly, like from an outside point of view looking in.
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She just was like, didn't she didn't give me anything back.
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So I'd felt like I'd like unburdened myself for the first time and like, well done me.
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And then because she wasn't used to it, she she kind of didn't respond in any of the way that I would have expected.
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And then I just didn't do it for a while because I thought that that's horrible.
00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:55.599
And eventually, obviously, she kind of came around and said, I just remembered our conversation, and I feel like I didn't really respond to you at all, but I just never knew that about you.
00:19:55.759 --> 00:20:01.039
And so it so eventually it's it it started a deeper conversation, and now we're really good friends.
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:08.400
So there were a few times where I would, and I think it's important to know that not everybody is built to hear everything you've got to say, anyway.
00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:11.200
Like we have different friendships for different things, don't we?
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:23.599
And we have different levels of closeness with people, but yeah, when we start making changes to who we are and how we are and how we show up, it does kind of change this like energetic contract we have with people, doesn't it?
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:26.559
Where whereby they're kind of yeah, they're not so used to it.
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:38.400
And there's another story that I tell in the book, and it's about it's a bit was the same, it was sad at the time, but it's when I was going out too much, and I knew that I was not looking after myself, and I knew that things were not looking good for me.
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:46.799
And I used to go out in East London till really late, and I lived in West London, which if you live in London, it's from Chiswick to Shoreditch is quite a long way.
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:49.200
Even on the tube, it's like an hour and a bit.
00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:59.200
And I used to miss the last tube home, and then I used to put all my friends in cabs, and then I'd get the night bus home, which took three and a half hours, which was like two or three night buses.
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:10.799
And I did that as not because I couldn't afford the cab, it was because I it was like a kind of weird punishment of like, you've done this again, you've gone out again, you've spent too much money, you're doing your drinking.
00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:18.720
And instead of having any kind of self-compassion or any self-awareness, which I didn't have at the time, I used to do this, I used to put myself in these dangerous situations.
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:20.559
And I didn't tell anyone about it.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:25.920
Even my husband, he just thought I'd been out until five in the morning and obviously wasn't very happy about that either.
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.680
But I could I couldn't bring myself to tell him why I was so late.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:32.799
And then I told a really good friend about it.
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:35.519
I think when I when we were out another night, I think I told him.
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:41.839
And then at the end of the night, he booked booked me a cab and put me in the cab and made sure I got home.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:47.759
And it's like even now that just makes me feel like that's just you know, I'm an adult woman, I can get myself home.
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:59.839
But the idea of someone listening to you and thinking that she needs to be looked after, it was really like I at the time I felt like that was I I you know, tried to pay him back and and it was and I didn't.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.920
Need him to do it, and I felt and I think I probably acted very ungratefully, probably.
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:18.720
But now I just think how amazing that we can have people in our life that will see what we need, which is physically at the time was a taxi home, but actually that wasn't what I needed, was just someone to say that's not okay, that what you're doing, that's not nice to yourself.
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:20.559
So let's not let it happen again.
00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:25.440
So I think, yeah, that and a lot of my relationships are are stronger than ever.
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:29.039
Lots of lots of friendships kind of fell fell away, I suppose.
00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:43.359
But I think I would say they were very much situationships, not from a romantic point of view, but uh I used to hang out with certain people because they were the people that made me feel like what I was doing wasn't wrong or what I was because we were all in the say a similar position, I think.
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:54.400
And once you start once you re start building up a good relationship with yourself, generally you start looking after yourself better because you feel like you do you're worth it and you deserve it.
00:22:54.559 --> 00:23:01.759
So yeah, my friends and my husband, we're we've been married 19 years this year, so he's been he's been through it.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:05.920
He's been he needs a lot of self-help himself after 19 years with me.
00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:12.960
But um, and then my best friends are still my best friends, and they and but everyone's in in different chapters of their life now.
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:28.160
Like I don't have kids, but lots of them are now mothers and fathers, and and we and I think the idea of being there with your crew of friends and special people, regardless of what's going on in their life, is actually that's one of the bits I love about getting older.
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:36.480
Like having a relationship that's nearly 20 years, having friendships that are having friendships that are nearly 20 years is like you can't you can't bottle that, can you?
00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:45.119
Like you wish you could, but I think, yeah, for lots of them, they've kind of they've watched from afar, and then now that I've got the book out and they've been really supportive.
00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:46.720
And we do talk about this stuff more now.
00:23:46.799 --> 00:24:04.880
It's taken a while, but I think the conversation generally is we we're more open, aren't we, talking about our mental health, our emotional health, and maybe what we need and and the idea that you want to do things together, maybe or want to change how we do things, and just have given each other the grace to change and develop.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:09.440
Yeah, and I think what you said then too, it sounds like and I'm really, really happy you said this.
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:12.880
It sounds like there's something about the experimentation and the try-in self-help.
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:25.680
Because there I think sometimes there's a perception that you pick up the book and then you're almost like one and done, or it's easy, or it's kind of very linear, and things just change for you.
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:31.599
And actually I think what you're speaking to is the idea it's much more gradual, it's often smaller than you expect.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:33.599
It's gonna go wrong sometimes.
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:39.440
Like you're gonna try it, someone's like is gonna say the wrong thing, you may even retreat, and then maybe you'll try again.
00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:52.319
And there's a lot of just experimenting so that you can get it right in or right's a bit difficult, but so that it can kind of sit within your life and how you work and how your brain works and how your energy is and what your lifestyle is and all those things.
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:56.480
And it's not the sort of you know, very clean, clear, precise thing.
00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.079
Like it's a little bit messier, I think, self-help than we expect.
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:06.720
Yeah, I love the word that you just said the word experiment because I think that is very much when we can hold it a bit more lightly, maybe.
00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:22.319
And I know if you're in a if you're in a dark place, it's hard to hold things lightly, but the idea of treating this, these, this work or this information or these tools or strategies as experiments actually is a bit more freeing.
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:26.400
So it's not like I need to read this book and do everything in it, otherwise my life's over.
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:30.559
It's like this book and this teaching and this podcast might be helpful.
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:33.839
So I'll I'll listen and I'll learn and then I'll try and apply it.
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:40.319
And if it doesn't work, I'll do something else rather than this has to work or it must work because it's worked for everybody else.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:50.640
So I love any books and any work around like behavior change, and because that's about building a skill versus changing who you are at the core.
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:54.480
It's about if you want to do things differently, we can all do things differently.
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:55.680
We can all learn to do things.
00:25:55.839 --> 00:26:04.880
So I think when we treat ourselves like experiments or like projects and that idea of like designing your life and and looking forward with intention, that's really juicy, isn't it?
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:12.240
And sometimes I was had a podcast yesterday, and the interviewer was talking about how sometimes she just has a laugh at all the drama of her life.
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:22.720
Like she almost has a this takes herself back now because she's got to a place where she's quite spiritual and she's got to a place where she can see the drama happening and she can choose to go into it or not.
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:24.079
And she said, Sometimes I do.
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:28.160
Sometimes I'm just like, Yeah, I'm gonna get into that gossip fest or whatever it is.
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:38.640
But other times it's just like, look what every look at this, what look what's happening, look at all these triggers, look at everyone triggering each other, and I'm just gonna watch and learn and just protect my peace.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:41.680
So I think that's really um, yeah, it's good, isn't it?
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:49.039
And I think then then, and it's just like, yeah, hold it lightly, treat, treat these things like experiments, little experiments on your life, on yourself.
00:26:49.279 --> 00:27:04.799
And I I did I went sober for the year in 2024, and I kept just telling everyone it's an experiment, and that language was so helpful to me and also other people to work out what to do with me, I think, because that was a bit of a change from going from a being a big drinker, like so.
00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:09.200
I wasn't saying I'm off, I'm I've quit drinking, and I wasn't saying I'm in recovery.
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:16.000
I just thought I'm gonna try something for a year and see what the effects are and see how it affects me and see if I enjoy it.
00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:28.240
And and so that helped me when it was really hard, like at a free bar on holiday in Greece or at four-day wedding events with champagne flowing.
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:51.119
Like I do still deserve a medal for going sober for a year, but it taught me so much, and this experimental side of it, it just was so like I'd really lent into that like sober curious element of yeah, I'm not drinking at the moment, and maybe I'll drink again one day, and I do now drink a bit mindfully, but then I'd be like on a Friday night, I'd be like, I always on a Friday night, I always want loads of drinks, and that's just because I've always done it.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:28:07.519
So just being able to, you know, see yourself as that almost like third, third person or you know, that out of body looking into your life and treating it like data and treating it as information, and then choosing to do whatever you want with that information.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:09.279
Yeah, there's so much there.
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:13.039
Yes, I love that you said all of those things because there's so much in well-being right now.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:15.759
This is what I've seen over the decade that I've been doing this.
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:29.039
Um this shift to almost endlessly self-improve, this shift to strive to do more, add one more thing, kind of optimize and make yourself better in lots and lots of different ways.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:37.759
And the thing that really helps me that almost the pressure and the implied judgment or the overwhelm of it is this idea or these ideas about curiosity in play.
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:42.240
And that actually it can be like it can be something still fun.
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.200
It doesn't have to be something to berate ourselves about.
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:47.359
We can get really curious about it.
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:50.720
Some things may not be working for us, some things may be working for us.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:29:00.640
Before I was coming on to speak to you, I was writing something that was about this overwhelm of ideas right now, this overwhelm of well-being.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:06.480
Like there is so much, so much we can do and be and think and change and feel.
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:15.039
How do you deal with that when you are choosing books, just being a person in your life, like being in relationship with other people?
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:17.039
Like, how do you deal with the overwhelm of it all?
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:22.319
I think for me, it's about that relationship with yourself to start with.
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:38.400
So once my experience of my own life and working with other people is that once you have that baseline of a kind of like level of peace with yourself and a contentment, then you can dip in and out of different things, but ultimately knowing that's not what's going to change you or your life.
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:54.319
So I think if you're someone who's just feels like something needs to change, so I was at the point of like, I just need to leave this job, I just need something to change, then for that, it's I think that's the idea of getting to understand how you think and feel and behave.
00:29:54.480 --> 00:30:00.319
So that's really the job of probably self-discovery and um not optimization.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:03.680
It's that's the going backwards stage, which is like what has shaped me.
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:05.279
Why do I got to this position?
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:08.160
Why am I an adult person who is behaving like this?
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:13.680
And then so my three steps, that's step one, and then step two is looking forward and kind of where do I want to go?
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:18.400
Let's get some intentional about that and consciously design my future.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:20.559
So that there's so much empowerment there, isn't it?
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:23.599
The idea of who are you becoming, who do you want to become?
00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:27.039
And then the third step is and what do you what do you need right now?
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:33.200
So that's this what that's your kind of support systems and your habits and routines and rituals and and connections.
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:37.920
So I try and break it down like that just so it's super simple for exactly that reason.
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:43.599
There is so much out there, and the overwhelm is real, and um and it's and it's it's it's great.
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:45.599
There's loads of juicy books coming out at the moment.
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:53.440
I there's uh I just interviewed the guy that wrote Attached, he's written a new book about secure, and that's about attachment theory, which we all love because isn't it great to learn more about that?
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:57.279
But that's not probably gonna change how you wake up feeling every morning, right?
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:07.039
And then so, and then there's books, there's another book I'm interviewing, and also called Alex L, who writes a lot about healing, and hers book is called The Company We Keep, and that's all about your relationships and your boundaries.
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:12.160
I think really it's like get to that base level of understanding yourself.
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:17.039
Ideally, please start to love yourself, like yourself at least to start.
00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:22.400
And then when you have when you're coming from that space, I think you intuitively know a bit more about what you need.
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:24.400
And the idea, like we talked about the experiments.
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:38.079
So if we're talking about boundaries and who's in your life, so maybe if I am at a place where I feel like I'm happy with who I am now, but this one person, maybe it's a parent or a sibling or someone who's close to me, always makes me feel bad.
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:41.440
So maybe I'm gonna try and do things a bit differently with this person.
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:48.240
And if it goes right, then brilliant, and then we have a better relationship as a result of it, or I don't feel so stressed.
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:53.519
If it goes wrong, let's I'm gonna treat it like an experiment and think, oh, that didn't work, so let's try something else.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:02.480
But I think when you're trying those different things from a place of self, like you've got that self-security, then you don't feel like it's it's you're not a bad person because it went wrong.
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:03.920
You're just trying something new.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:07.359
So I think it's great to try new things, it's great to always be learning and growing.
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:08.160
Like we love it.
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:11.279
There's a whole billion-dollar industry around it.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:31.119
But ultimately, if you don't have the foundations of you think you're a worthy and deserving human, then anything you try might, if it doesn't go right, which it very likely won't do the first time, it becomes like a almost like a kind of statement about yourself versus the method.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.200
Like let them theory doesn't work for everybody.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:40.400
Like you have to be a certain kind of person to be able to even get to that point of when you can p let let people just be who they are, right?
00:32:40.720 --> 00:33:17.119
So I think it's about in it's like to cut out all the overwhelm, it's like coming back to the foundations, and like the foundational work for me would be self-compassion, learning about your thoughts, your feelings and behaviours and and what has shaped them, looking at how you show up and how you spend your time and how and how you are how you're taking care of yourself, really, and then taking care of versus optimizing or being excelling in all these areas, and then from that place of hopefully kind of I like self-authorship.
00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:18.240
I really like that term at the moment.
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:19.039
Self-authorship.
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:19.440
I love that.
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:20.799
So juicy, isn't it?
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:26.960
It's really interesting because it's very much about you have agency and there's a sense of the design implied of it.
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:30.079
And there's something about storytelling that I really like as well.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:34.960
I really like that self-authorship much more than some of the other terms right now.
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:40.480
I feel like it's something that we can aim for because self-authorship is like you're in charge of your story.
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:41.440
And I love that.
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:44.000
That's there's so much power in that, isn't it?
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:47.920
And so it's like it's the reframe of what it's I'm in charge.
00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.960
So, oh no, like, well, I'm not doing very well at the moment.
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.079
It's like, well, okay, if you're not, then that is information, that's data.
00:33:54.319 --> 00:34:00.000
So then there's lots of things that you can do to change the next part or the next chapter.
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:03.359
So um where do we start with that?
00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:12.960
And then so often quite that's the self-that's why the self-reflection part I think comes first and the self-discovery part comes first, because then you can start writing the story that you want.
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:17.119
So your book, this is part one of your book, is the self-discovery part.
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:18.800
So you have this connected self method.
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:23.840
So what you've just described is part one, and then you have two further parts in your book.
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:27.679
And we've touched on your book lightly, but maybe we'll just go there much more directly.
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:31.119
Maybe you could speak to what you is and how you came to.
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:34.239
I mean you've read a thousand self-help books over ten years.
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.920
How do you then sit down and then write your own book?
00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:39.119
How do you do that?
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:43.920
Yeah, that's it's a massive challenge, which is why it's taken me 10 years.
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:56.400
But it's a pocket-sized guide as well, so it's smaller than your average book, which is the challenge when you know a lot about something or you think know a lot about something, is to kind of get it into something that is digestible for other people, right?
00:34:56.559 --> 00:35:01.039
So I've spent 15 years working for The Sun and the and the Daily Mail.
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:07.039
So I've spent a long time wrangling lots of words into a shorter space and still making them make sense.
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:10.559
So my first full-time job was subbing Dear Deirdre and Mystic Meg.
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:21.519
So I would get a thousand words about, I don't know, a threesome or somebody running away with their sister-in-law and have to make it into like 150 words with a nice picture of Deirdre at the top.
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:30.880
So I think the skill of taking maybe not threesomes always, but taking like information and making it into making it into a form that you the people will receive.
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:41.519
And so my like philosophy on self-help is that it's I want it to be accessible and I want it to be something that anyone can do and it's something to be celebrated.
00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:44.480
So like the book is I don't I don't have my coffee here to show you.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:50.079
But um, it's yellow and white and black, it's like minimal, it's sleek, it's sophisticated, it's not threatening.
00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:56.239
So it already looks like something anyone could pick up and not look like they are in dire straits for stuff.
00:35:56.800 --> 00:35:57.920
Could they read it on the tube?
00:35:58.239 --> 00:35:59.599
They can read it on the tube, yeah.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:09.679
I did uh we did a book club once for the Paul McKenna book, and it's got his face on the front and then change your life in seven days, and somebody came and they'd wrapped it in brown paper and they'd read it on the tube.
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:18.719
Like Yeah, because there is a shame sometimes, like depending on what which book you've chosen, yeah, of publicly associating with certain ideas about how you want to change yourself.
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:18.880
Yeah.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:20.719
Of course, it says a lot about you, doesn't it?
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:22.880
Which you might not want everyone on the tube to know.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:31.599
But because I feel like self-help is really personal growth, self-development, and this is things that we it just gives us tools to support our life.
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:33.920
For in whatever situation you are.
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:36.880
If you've if you've got a great life, brilliant, carry on having a great life.
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.480
There's things you need to do to support it.
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:42.960
Like if you had a great body, there'd be things you need to do to keep it to keep that great body, right?
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:47.599
So yeah, I really want m self-help generally to have a bit of a makeover.
00:36:47.920 --> 00:37:04.320
I hope that my book is a is a way of kind of giving it a bit of a rebrand and making it something that people can pick up and read in a weekend, but in it is some of the biggest concepts that because reading a thousand self-help books, I've learned that a lot of it is the same messages, repackaged.
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:10.239
And it's and people will relate to different authors and people will relate to different styles and different voices.
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:17.519
And so there's there's definitely there's a there's several themes that run through most self-help, I would say, in personal development.
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:24.639
So, what what I've written is the book that I think I touched on earlier is that I would have needed, which is a bit of a plan.
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:28.880
So I need something to change, I don't know what to do or where to start.
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:30.639
So I just started doing everything.
00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:35.679
Go to therapy, go to yoga, start reading the books, go on a silent retreat, do some eye-gazing.
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:37.840
Like it was all to a bit too much, probably.
00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:43.519
But so I I would have quite liked that plan that would kind of just act as a guide, maybe.
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:50.559
So my book is introducing some of the biggest concepts, but very much introducing and then sharing more books to read.
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:52.960
If so, that's what happened with me with the Paul McKenna book.
00:37:53.039 --> 00:38:01.599
Everything I learned, I went went off and read another book, or watched a documentary or a TED talk or went to an event or something like that because it was all new information to me.
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:10.400
So I would love my book to then be like the jumping-off point for people to then go and find out, go further down the rabbit holes of the bits that speak to them.
00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:19.199
But equally is giving them some kind of guide through this development journey, which is yeah, the connect connected self method.
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:22.639
So it invites you to connect with your past self and look at what has shaped you.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:24.159
And we talked about that already.
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:38.320
Then connecting with that future self and who you're becoming and what you want your life to look and feel like, and then connecting with your present self as and looking at if now we've identified who I am and where I want to go, how do I support myself to get there?
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:45.039
And so the step three, which is so I call that life support, that's very much I think what we do mostly in shelf help now.
00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:46.639
It's almost maintenance.
00:38:46.880 --> 00:39:35.119
So I would say I've moved through steps one and step two, still going back to both of them at different times as needed, as as we all will, but very much step three is about, and in the now, if I say I'm writing a book at the you know, I'm promoting a book at the moment, so my morning routine might look a bit different than hopefully in two months' time when I've got a bit more time on my hands, and then I might decide I want to be a bit more restful or creative or I don't know, whatever it is, but it's like giving yourself this toolkit of different things to try and different things that work and and different ways to support yourself, I think, your health, your happiness, and I think what I hope the book is is a little bit a taste of lots of things, and we'll hopefully people will come away with more questions because they'll have well, more questions and from a place of a better understanding of themselves.
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:36.559
So that's why the book is called You.
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:40.400
Originally I wanted to call it who are you becoming because I just love that question so much.
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:41.280
Oh gosh, that's lovely.
00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:47.119
Yeah, the publisher was like, I think if you want it to be a beginner's guide, that might be a bit scary to people.
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:48.880
And it is like it's with you.
00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:51.199
Yeah, it's it's because who are you becoming?
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:52.719
Well, who are you now?
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:54.480
And you we're always becoming someone.
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:57.920
So whether we are intentional about that or not, it's happening, right?
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:07.119
So the idea of that the woman on the getting the night bus home, if she made no changes, I wouldn't be here right now, would I, talking to you like this for sure.
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:11.440
So it's like the idea of well, if I don't change anything, who am I becoming?
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:14.320
If I try some of these things, who might I become?
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:15.440
Who do I want to become?
00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:24.000
And then let's start making the effort, I suppose, maybe effort, or just making the changes maybe needed to get there.
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:27.760
What does it feel like to be a self-help author?
00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:29.840
Amazing, I love it.
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:30.960
I'm loving it so much.
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:43.519
I got invited to my first author meetup next week, and it's like honestly, I'm so I'm gonna I'm trying to, I'm gonna try and act cool, Claire, but I don't know if I will because I'm already just like, I'm gonna hang out with authors, we're gonna just talk about book stuff.
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:47.760
So yeah, it's a bit mad because I've spent so long.
00:40:47.920 --> 00:41:03.760
I like love platforming other authors and championing other authors, but like one of the best bits of this whole journey is that a lot of these authors become my friends because I think people who write self-help books have written it from a place of their own experience and their own need, and then they want to share that with other people.
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:06.400
So very much what I like to do.
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:14.159
It's amazing that you I think now, like with Substack and everything and social media, you can connect with people like on such a different level, can't you?
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:15.039
Like pre-premate.
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:17.360
It's extraordinary, just that in terms of access.
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:19.920
It's amazing, and then also your own visibility as well.
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:21.840
Yeah, it's totally changing everything.
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:23.119
And both sides, I think.
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:33.440
So, from a reader, like once upon a time, if you'd read uh Tony Robbins book, I mean Tony Robbins probably still won't answer my DMs, but I can still follow him and his wife Sage around a little bit, can't I?
00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:35.119
And get a glimpse into how he lives his life.
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:41.679
So that here's this book that changed my life, and it used to be just like you'd read the book and that would be it, and then try and apply what you'd learned.
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:47.599
And now I think you read the book and then you can see that this person really lives what they're talking or not, because sometimes that's the case as well, right?
00:41:47.679 --> 00:42:00.079
But when you can see, like for me, I love like I love the word expanders, and I love having people who I look up to and I like to see how they're living their life because they've given me great advice, which I'm trying to like assimilate into mine.
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:06.719
But then if I can see them living it and see them having successful, happy lives as a result, then it just makes it even more powerful, doesn't it?
00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:07.119
I think.
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:10.480
Yeah, and it's almost like world building now, I think, when you're an author.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:19.119
Like there's something about in the moment of writing, the moment of talking about publishing, but it's also just people just wanting to be with you in company with you in your world as well.
00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:21.840
No, it is so different than I think how we used to consume books.
00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:26.320
Like, you know, you pick it up, you read it, and you're kind of in a sense you move on to the next book, don't you?
00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:33.039
And I think there's something about really loving and holding on to throughout a life, a book or an author.
00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:36.400
You are in relationship with those things now in a very different way.
00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:36.880
Yeah.
00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:42.960
And we both talked about Brene Brown, like at the beginning, about how we both basically stalked, like socially stalked her.
00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:44.719
And but that's amazing, isn't it?
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:57.360
That that but that one so one book now it's not just one book because it's all the stuff that goes around it, but then you build this little kind of little cosmic cosmic, like, I don't know, ecoverse of different touch points with people.
00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:02.639
And and that how amazing is that that you can connect with people in all these different ways.
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:12.159
So my book, because it's uh like limited edition and a crowdfund model, I know that some people have bought it because they like me or they're my or they're related to me.
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:16.880
Yeah, I do have a massive family, and finally there is a payoff.
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:25.679
So there is that, but then I think, well, but but sneakily, they're gonna now have a self-help book in there, like landing in their hands, and they might never have read a self-help book.
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:30.800
So they maybe they've bought it because they know Tony, but now maybe they're gonna read some of that book.
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:45.440
And I don't care that they what they know about me or you know if they know it or not, but it's like hopefully some of those concepts might kind of like stealth help, I'm calling it, they'll go in because they're they're they're supporting because they want to support the person.
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:55.280
But actually, then I'm able to then be sharing all these things that I wouldn't necessarily be able to just tell people they need to do without.
00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:56.880
Because the book is telling them instead.
00:43:57.360 --> 00:43:58.239
Telling them instead, exactly.
00:43:58.320 --> 00:43:59.440
You can hide behind the book again.
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:03.039
Even if it's my book, I can still say, well, the book says, I'm sorry.
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:06.719
Okay, so usually at around now we do this five word second moment.
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:13.679
But because you know so much about books, I'm endlessly looking for recommendations, although I have too many to read.
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:16.559
I wonder if we could just do a quick fire round.
00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:18.480
And I haven't prepared you for this, so this might be a bit cruel.
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:22.559
I do have a pile of books here, so I might just be like diving in and out.
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:23.519
Yeah, I'd love that.
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:24.480
That was my hope.
00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:28.320
My hope is to come away and be like, oh, there's all the other things I should be reading.
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:28.719
Okay.
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:31.840
What is the book that you recommend to almost everyone?
00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:36.320
That that is the kindness method, which I think I've touched on a little bit already.
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:37.199
Where is she?
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:43.119
I can't see the copy now, but yeah, it's the kindness method by Cheru Izadi, and it's about behaviour change.
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:47.440
And Cheru talks about she's written three books now, but we're now really good friends.
00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:52.079
We met eight years ago when this book came out, and it's all uh sorry, this is supposed to be quickfire, isn't it?
00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:53.039
But it's about behaviour change.
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:54.000
I can't do quickfire.
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:56.800
I told you this at the beginning when we're talking about self-help.
00:44:57.039 --> 00:45:04.239
The idea that changing any behaviour is let's make it a skill-building situation versus something you need to change about yourself.
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:24.960
So whether it is a behaviour around drink or cigarettes or spending too much, like whether it's an addictive type behavior, or whether it's something like the way that you talk to yourself, or whether it's something like what you believe about yourself, the science is that being kind to yourself is going to be more helpful in helping you change your habits, any kind of habit.
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:32.719
And so most of us spend our time kind of bullying ourselves into change or using trying to use willpower.
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:43.920
But actually, if ultimately you're not the kindness isn't there at the beginning, then you won't like if you you wouldn't if you shouted at your kid until that he did something, you wouldn't expect him to then keep doing that forever.
00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:48.880
Like he would have done it because he had to for that time, and then would go back into different habits.
00:45:49.039 --> 00:46:04.400
So the kindness method is all based on the this evidence-based addiction research, really, and how Cheru she used to work in the NHS on addiction in addiction, and applying that to how you how you talk to yourself, how you treat yourself, how you show up for yourself.
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:07.440
So it's full of mind maps and and kind of flowcharts.
00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:09.679
And so if you like that kind of self-help, love that.
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:26.559
Um yeah, and I recommend that to anybody because most people that I interact with want to change something about what they are doing, whether that's working or drinking or spending, or like I said, talking to themselves in in those ways that make them make are making them unhappy.
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:33.280
And that's such an important piece because you're right, it can so easily turn into self-attack rather than self-compassion.
00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:36.320
And it could just be another thing where we're like, what's what's wrong with me?
00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:37.519
Like, why can't I do this thing?
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:39.760
You know, why am I still drinking, or whatever it would be?
00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:40.000
Yeah.
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:43.679
So that kindness idea is such an important reframe.
00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:46.800
And people find it hard because they think it's a cop-out.
00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:49.039
Like it wouldn't work somehow.
00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:49.519
Yeah.
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:54.000
It's just like, well, I'm I'm I don't deserve kindness because I'm obviously crap because I drink too much.
00:46:54.159 --> 00:46:57.119
Like that's the mentality of was definitely me and for lots of people.
00:46:57.199 --> 00:47:00.320
But Yashiri says it's that's why it's a skill building exercise.
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:04.079
Like you wouldn't get into a car as a non-driver and expect to know how to drive the car.
00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:09.599
Even if you read all the books about how to drive a car, like you don't necessarily know how to drive the bloody car.
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:16.800
So you would expect to have less, you know, you you try, and one goes one lesson will be great, one will be terrible, and then you'll go back in again and try again.
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:18.960
You don't just stop because it's terrible either.
00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:24.079
And the and you don't being mean to yourself as you're doing this thing is not helpful.
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:26.719
Same as it wouldn't be being mean to anyone else you know.
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:39.119
So that idea of yeah, making making it into making yourself into a project and an experiment and behaviour change as something you can learn and something you need to learn to then make it stick.
00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:39.760
I love that.
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.719
And I think it's really is a good reframe for people.
00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:46.159
Okay, what's an underrated self-help book?
00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:48.239
Underrated self-help book.
00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:51.760
I'm looking at my little um Oh, you know what I love.
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:52.800
I love.
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:54.480
Actually, I'm gonna share this one.
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:55.840
This is a bit random.
00:47:56.079 --> 00:47:58.239
There's this book called A Complaint Free World.
00:47:58.320 --> 00:47:59.119
I don't know if you've heard about that.
00:47:59.360 --> 00:47:59.599
I haven't.
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:01.280
It's a book and a method.
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:04.079
This is this will this will change your life.
00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:05.840
I say this a lot about um different things.
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:07.199
So it's called The Complaint Free World.
00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:08.239
It's got a terrible cover.
00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:09.760
Don't judge a book by its cover.
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:16.159
And it's basically a 21-day challenge of, and you're supposed to wear something around your wrist, like a hair bubble or a wristband or something.
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:21.760
And every time you hear yourself complaining out loud, you have to change your just change this onto your.
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:22.800
So it's using like scene.
00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:24.159
You thought you were about to say you had to flick yourself.
00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:25.840
I was like, that's your paint as much.
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:27.519
Okay.
00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:31.360
And then make make yourself aware of how many times you're moving the wristband across.
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:33.519
And it will be so many times a day.
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:36.960
It will be I think I want you to try it for 24 hours.
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:40.960
And the idea is we all like just small talk, oh, the weather's awful.
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:42.239
That's a complaint, right?
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:47.840
And so it's like anything that comes out of your light mouth, it isn't, it doesn't have to all be positive, but it's like just don't say it.
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:48.960
Like there's no need.
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:53.840
So don't complain about traffic, don't complain about something, I don't know, the food was cold or whatever.
00:48:54.000 --> 00:49:03.519
Just try not complaining for a day and see, and and you'll notice how much you do it, and and then you'll notice how much other people do it, which is is so fascinating.
00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:07.760
And so as a pro so the the challenge is do it for 21 days, don't complain out loud.
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:09.679
And it's it's it's impossible.
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:11.440
Like I don't know anyone who's been able to do it.
00:49:11.599 --> 00:49:23.920
There's someone in my group, my book club, and he's been wearing the wristband because we did it together, I think, at Christmas three years ago, and he's still wearing the wristband because you and he's on it, he's doing it, and he's like gets to day 18 and then moans about something.
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:32.159
And the the the principle behind it is when we start looking for positive things to see and say, it will really kind of like change your mindset.
00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:42.800
And when you just notice how much we're complaining unnecessarily, and out of habit and out of just small talk, it really highlights that we're in quite a negative space a lot of the time.
00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:47.199
And so, like the the critics of it are like, oh, toxic positivity, we shouldn't have to be happy all the time.
00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:54.559
And it's it's not about that, it's just about raising awareness of the idea that you will be complaining a lot more than you think.
00:49:54.639 --> 00:50:04.800
And when you actually think about that, it that's what's going on in your head, and that's that's the energy you're bringing to conversations, then it's like, do I want to be this moony person?
00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:06.719
And you'll really notice it in other people.
00:50:06.800 --> 00:50:07.440
It's fascinating.
00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:14.559
I've heard you talk about books before and how you can have a really visceral response to them, like there's something in your body, and I love that idea, find it fascinating.
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:19.519
And I also did this like I think there's a real I grew up in Manchester.
00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:23.599
It's professionally professional loneliness, basically.
00:50:24.159 --> 00:50:26.719
There's something about that that that's self-deprecating.
00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:26.960
Yeah.
00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:30.400
But I also spent a lot of my life in California, so I had this real duality.
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:35.280
Like I can happily trip into Positivity World, and I can very, very, very much moan.
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:36.400
So I'm gonna try that.
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:37.599
That sounds really fascinating.
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:40.639
But I did have that visceral like, ooh, interesting.
00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:44.719
Okay, what's a book that arrived for you at exactly the right time?
00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:46.159
Oh wow.
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:48.239
Well, so many of these actually, really.
00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:51.760
So obviously Paul McKenna, well that that 100% did.
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:57.119
And then so with the first self-care book we read as a community was Susie Redding.
00:50:57.360 --> 00:50:58.239
Oh, she's wonderful.
00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:00.559
Oh, yeah, she's been on the show, she's great.
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:02.000
She's also a friend now.
00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:12.159
We've done two of her books, and we read the book, it was in lockdown because it we were we'd all uh my community had moved online like everyone's did, and it's called Self-Care for Tough Times.
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:14.880
And it was a tough time, wasn't it, for everybody.
00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:18.079
So this book wasn't written for lockdown, it was written pre-lockdown.
00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:27.199
And I think it's talking about how to how to manage anxiety and how to manage change when it when it's grief or loss or a big transition.
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:34.639
So Susie, as you know, is very much about when you don't have anything in the tank, you still need that's when you need to care for yourself.
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:41.760
And so, and she, I think there's a lot of pushback on self-care, as in like, well, it's great when you feel great, it's easy to take care of yourself.
00:51:41.920 --> 00:51:47.360
And what Susie says is self-care is it's not about being nice to yourself, it's about resourcing yourself.
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:48.719
So it's like, what do you need?
00:51:48.880 --> 00:52:01.599
So self-care for tough times was very is very much about really small practices, a lot of them body-based, a lot of them it might just be a bit of touch to yourself or a kind word or legs up against the wall before you go to bed.
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:11.119
There was like very small things that you can do that help give you something back when you are at a very low ebb, which I think is really important.
00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:19.119
So we talked earlier about if you're at a place like in a dark place or in a place where the idea of reading a whole self-help book is just like that's not gonna happen.
00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:22.320
You know, I don't have the time or the energy or the inclination.
00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:26.880
I just want, I just need to feel better, or I just need to, I know I need to be taking care of myself.
00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:35.519
So I think that book was brilliant because it was locked down and we all needed something, just something that was it's like a hug in a book, really.
00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:37.519
And I think a lot of her stuff's like that, isn't it?
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:39.920
Apart from her new one, have you seen, called How to Be Selfish?
00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:42.639
How to be selfish, yes, it's interesting, isn't it?
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:53.440
But that's also about the idea about being deserving of care, because so much of that that those other books start from, and also what you've touched on earlier, is so much about being deserving of care.
00:52:53.760 --> 00:53:00.639
Like we are allowed to be cared for by ourselves, by other people, by the world that we're in.
00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:06.239
It's so important, and particularly during tough times, not just when things are okay again, but particularly during tough times.
00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:08.239
Yeah, you're we're allowed to, and we need to.
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:12.159
So back to the quote my thought, which is we don't have to do all of it alone.
00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:12.480
Yeah.
00:53:12.639 --> 00:53:16.880
It's like we need it, and that like, and I've just interviewed the attached guy I mentioned earlier, Dr.
00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:29.360
Amir Levine, and he talks about like at a cellular level, when you are not connecting well to people, when you are feeling like not seen and not heard and not taken care of, you're you're doing damage to your cells.
00:53:29.440 --> 00:53:38.400
So it's not just you it does feel it doesn't feel nice, but your emotion, the reason that it doesn't feel nice is because your body's like, this is not a place to be, it's not good for me.
00:53:38.559 --> 00:53:41.760
I'm I'm seeing, I'm feeling threat, I'm not feeling safe.
00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:53.519
And so all of the stuff I think that Susie talks about is giving yourself that idea of you are your safe place, and and it's okay to tell her to to to expect other people to give you that as well, right?
00:53:54.079 --> 00:53:56.719
How do you hope you'll hold on to this going forward?
00:53:56.880 --> 00:54:00.320
This idea that we don't have to do it alone and we were never meant to.
00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:05.679
Well, I feel like I'm kind of I've I've given myself I'm not giving myself no option.
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:13.760
I run an run an online community now, well, I run a global community, so I have a lot of accountability partners, don't I, in the in my membership?
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:17.519
So I think and I think I just I just operate differently now.
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:27.440
I I'm very I I am very open to connecting with people and I'm I I understand that that's important for them and for me to have nice relationships.
00:54:27.519 --> 00:54:37.599
So I feel like from a point of view of yeah, from my work connecting with people every day about self-help and all that kind of stuff, but then in my own relationships, that's just how I live now, I think.
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:41.280
So it's very much yeah, how I operate.
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:46.880
Is that the dream life that you were setting out to discover when you picked up that first book?
00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:48.079
Maybe, you know.
00:54:48.239 --> 00:54:55.199
Well, didn't I always say that when when I was just in the place where I was like, I don't know what's gonna happen, but I need something to happen.
00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:58.960
I used to just say peace, peace, peace, peace, peace with my mantra.
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:03.280
That's like when I started learning about mantras and listening to affirmations and things.
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:06.239
It was just because I was what I had was the opposite of peace.
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:07.360
What is that?
00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:08.000
Chaos?
00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:13.760
Like I felt like not in my life, uh my life and also in my myself, there is no peace.
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:22.079
And so now I am I do now live in a barn and I hang out mostly with my dog, and I sometimes say, Milo, I think we've got too much peace now.
00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:24.880
Oh, I think it's come my dream has come true.
00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:28.719
So now I just need to make sure I get a bit of bit of energy as well.
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:45.039
But yeah, like I think, and I and I said I was talking about somebody yesterday who I'd I talked about expanders, and I'd met this woman ten years ago, and she intimidated me so much because she was just like living the life that I desperately internally wanted, and I didn't realise it.
00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:52.079
Like she was ran a great business, but also just really owned herself and she was confident and she looked took care of herself.
00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:58.639
And I described this woman who intimidated the hell out of me and also made me really sad because I was like, That's I'll never be that.
00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:02.400
And the person who interviewed me said, This is you, you're talking about you.
00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:05.840
This is like everything you've just said about this person, it's you now.
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:11.360
And then the person who intimidated me now is my friend, and says, said to me yesterday, I love who you've become.
00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:12.400
And I just think, wow.
00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:22.079
I know, and it's just like this whole process has been at to your point of like sometimes you don't know it's happening until you look back, until it's happened.
00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:26.320
So yeah, you do this work, you read no one needs to read a thousand self-help books, right?
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:44.559
But it's like you read some books and you'll take some bits, and if you're consistently applying them, you know, forward, back, forward, back, forward, forward to the side, back, but hopefully forward eventually, then there will become a point where like where you are now is where you that's such a brilliant question because it's where it's where you dreamed of being.
00:56:44.719 --> 00:56:50.639
And that doesn't mean that then it's like now I'm like, oh yeah, cool, mic drop, sit down and just like sit here, just loving life.
00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:52.960
Like now it's like, well, now there's a next step, isn't it?
00:56:53.119 --> 00:56:54.880
Now there's the next step for the business.
00:56:55.199 --> 00:57:03.440
And but hopefully I'm coming at that from not a striving, like grasping point of view, whereas 10 years ago I was like, I don't care what happens, but something needs to change.
00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:04.800
Like, I'm just desperate.
00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:06.000
Now I'm not desperate.
00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:09.039
Now I'm just like, oh, how juicy, what could happen next?
00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:10.639
Let's let's see what could happen next.
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:22.079
And if I take care of myself in this way, or if I challenge myself in this way, if I you know put push myself out of the comfort zone in this way, these are the things that might happen for me and for the for the community.
00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:26.400
So um I think yeah, it's so lovely, isn't it?
00:57:26.480 --> 00:57:28.800
Sometimes to and this is why the reflection part is so nice.
00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:37.119
So even though I say, Well, I've done the self-discovery, and it's like, oh yeah, I've done therapy and I've looked at my limiting beliefs, and I know that I'm I know I've got stuff about money, still working on that.
00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:51.039
It's like it's always some the reflection part is so nice, and even like once a month, or like looking back at what worked and what didn't, and and treating it again like data, and then designing the next month around it, it's just so powerful.
00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:54.559
So you have written this book.
00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:59.360
This episode is going out on Monday, the 18th of May.
00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:02.079
And people can get the book until when, Tony.
00:58:02.239 --> 00:58:03.119
And how did they get it?
00:58:03.199 --> 00:58:04.559
And how does it all work?
00:58:05.199 --> 00:58:08.880
It's a limited edition, so it's available until the 26th of May only.
00:58:09.039 --> 00:58:10.960
So just under one week to get your copy.
00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:24.400
And it's available from the Pound Project, which is the Pound Project, is a British independent publisher, and they back one book at a time, and it's always a three-week window, and it's very much about small change, one story at a time.
00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:29.440
Is there kind of an ethos, which I just think the reason I'm so happy to be working with them?
00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:31.280
Yeah, it's just like perfect, isn't it?
00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:34.400
It's like we don't need you've already said this, we don't it doesn't need to be massive.
00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:36.800
It's like, in fact, it probably shouldn't be.
00:58:36.880 --> 00:58:42.239
It's like about making these small adjustments to ourselves and to our lives.
00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:46.000
And so the pound project, yeah, we kind of it's a collaboration really.
00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:48.079
Um that's the only place to get it.
00:58:48.159 --> 00:58:52.159
So I feel we've sold hundreds of books already, which is really good for that's huge.
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:55.199
Like I don't really know about book sales, I'm very much in it for the ride.
00:58:55.360 --> 00:59:04.880
But my publisher is like, well, you should want to know about book sales, but yeah, we've sold like we sold 200 in the first to 10 hours of going live or something like that, which is so brilliant.
00:59:05.039 --> 00:59:08.719
And also it's self-help books, which is like that's so cool, isn't it?
00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:25.599
Because really, if my mission and my th wish is that everyone reads self-help, which it secretly is, then the fact that you've bought a self-help book because you know me or because you follow my journey, then I'm so grateful that that book will now be in your hands and all that information ready to help support whatever comes next for you.
00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:38.880
Well, huge congratulations on the book, and it's been a real joy to actually see how over the last eight years you've really developed, Shelf Help's developed, the podcast, the book, all the different things.
00:59:39.039 --> 00:59:43.440
So it's lovely to reconnect with you, and thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
00:59:43.760 --> 00:59:49.440
Thank you for having me and letting me share all of that, and I'm excited to see how the no complaint challenge goes.
00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:51.679
Oh gosh, just complained.
00:59:51.840 --> 00:59:52.800
There you go.
00:59:56.239 --> 00:59:58.480
It was such a pleasure to reconnect with Tony.
00:59:58.559 --> 01:00:08.480
And what I really love is that her book is so much about the past, where you've been, the present where you are, and the future about where you're going.
01:00:08.800 --> 01:00:24.800
And for me, this is a real full circle moment of coming back to you know where we both were eight years ago when I first called Tony from my car and connected with her from the States, and she was in London.
01:00:25.039 --> 01:00:45.679
And also where we both are now as we find ourselves promoting our first books and still really being immersed in this world of self-help and wellness, and just trying to be a person while doing all the things that uncertain times and one life demand of us.
01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:53.920
And then also that future part the part about you know who we're becoming, where we're going, what's next, what else.
01:00:54.960 --> 01:01:00.880
And so I really hope that you take what you need from this episode.
01:01:00.960 --> 01:01:04.320
That seems to be so much of what self-help really is about.
01:01:04.719 --> 01:01:10.239
As always, I will ask you, my listeners, whether this is a thought that you will hold on to.
01:01:10.320 --> 01:01:16.239
It's one from Breni Brown that could be a whole series of thoughts kept from Brennan Brown.
01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:24.000
I have one about vulnerability connects, I have another about being in the arena, which is from her TED Talk.
01:01:24.320 --> 01:01:35.199
But the one that Tony brought today is so important, I think, for right now, the genre of self-help and for what maybe we do fundamentally need to help us feel better.
01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:38.960
And that is we don't have to do it all alone.
01:01:39.360 --> 01:01:40.800
We were never meant to.
01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:46.239
So is this a thought that you'll keep, that you'll share, or even that you'll forget?
01:01:46.719 --> 01:01:56.239
Maybe you'll hear it while you're on your commute to work and you feel that you're still carrying the weight of absolutely everything and everyone.
01:01:56.480 --> 01:02:10.000
Maybe you'll mention this episode to somebody over coffee as you try to share a little bit more about really how you are feeling and what's really going on in your life.
01:02:10.480 --> 01:02:20.000
Maybe this will come back to you while you're hiding in the bathroom, wondering why it's all too much and too difficult.
01:02:21.280 --> 01:02:30.800
Wherever you are, whatever you're bringing, however you're arriving here, I do hope that this thought helps you in your life this week.
01:02:31.119 --> 01:02:32.719
Tony's book is out now.
01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:41.199
This episode is going out on May the 18th, and the book is available from the Pam Project until the 26th.
01:02:41.599 --> 01:02:42.800
I just put my copy.
01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:45.119
I'm really, really excited to read it.
01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:48.800
I really want to support the work that Tony is doing.
01:02:49.119 --> 01:03:05.280
And there is something here too about supporting the voices that we do want to see more of in the world, the ones that can offer a version of wellness to us that feels more accepting and more expansive and more playful, too.
01:03:05.840 --> 01:03:17.519
You can also find details in the show notes about the shelf help community and how you can attend one of the meetups, and also links to listen to the podcast The Bibliotherapists.
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:18.800
I hope you'll check that out.
01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:19.679
It's a really great show.
01:03:19.840 --> 01:03:24.800
I always, always find new books from my to be read pile.
01:03:25.360 --> 01:03:47.039
If you like talking about well-being, if you like being the space of conversations about things to try or do or feel, then do join me over on Substack, where I write on more good days, and where we continue exploring the ideas from this podcast.
01:03:47.280 --> 01:04:09.920
And if, like Tony, you felt like you spent parts of your life avoiding your feelings, or not really even noticing yourself, or you feel curious about what would happen if you looked at where you are, where you want to be, and how you might get there, then do explore how to work with me one-on-one, and that's also in the show notes below.
01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:26.480
And of course, if you're interested in finding a kinder way to well, like exploring all that well-being could actually be for you, then I would love it if you would take a look at my book that came out a couple of weeks ago.
01:04:26.719 --> 01:04:33.679
It's also called If Lost Art Here, and it's well-being for the anxious, the disconnected, or the uncertain.
01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:51.199
It's a really wonderful journal, historic guidebook that's all about getting a bit more playful, a little bit more exploratory, a little bit more expansive with how we define wellness, well-being in our everyday life.
01:04:51.440 --> 01:05:00.480
If you love self-help, you'll also love the episodes from Susie Redding and Gabrielle Trina, who have both been Shelf Help Monthly Picks.
01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:15.280
And if you're curious about why books matter, there's the episode with Tony's bibliotherapist co-host, Tanya Lynch, and consumer of books, writer of books, promoter of books, in all ways, the author Kathy Rentenbrick.
01:05:15.519 --> 01:05:21.280
Finally, if you enjoyed this episode, I would really love it if you would share it with someone who might need it too.
01:05:21.440 --> 01:05:29.039
Because podcasts also grow in connection through text sent, through voice notes to friends, through conversations that begin with.
01:05:29.280 --> 01:05:31.840
I heard something really interesting this week.
01:05:32.079 --> 01:05:33.760
You must check this out.
01:05:34.400 --> 01:05:42.719
This episode was hosted by me, Claire Fitzsimmons, and made by you just by listening, following, reviewing, and just saying hi.
01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:51.280
I've loved hearing about how these episodes are impacting you and how they're changing things for you in ways big and also small.
01:05:51.599 --> 01:05:59.840
I'll see you next Monday morning for another thought that one of my guests brought that you might want to carry with you into your week, or even keep for a lifetime too.
01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:02.000
Bye for now.