Interview with Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: Parenting Young Adults Through Anxiety, Anger, And Algorithms

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Hi guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health.
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Hey little helpers, it's Dr.
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Kibby here.
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Before we dive into this episode, I wanted to tell you how I could help you navigate the mental health or addiction struggles of the people you. KulaMind is the online coaching platform and community that I built to support you in the moment when you need it the most, like having hard conversations, asserting your needs, or setting boundaries.
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Even if you're just curious and want to chat about it, book a free call with me by going to the link in the show notes or going to coolamine.com, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com and click get started.
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Thank you and enjoy the show.
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Welcome back, little helpers.
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We have a fan favorite guest, Dr.
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Marcus Rodriguez.
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He's been on the podcast before.
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He's a DBT expert, especially in families and young adults.
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So I'm so excited to talk to him about this topic today.
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He's the founder and director of Youth and Family Institute.
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So if you're in California and you have a youth or family that needs mental health support, check it out.
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And he's also the director of the Global Mental Health Lab.
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He's also a tenured associate professor at Pittsar College.
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He was raised in Mexico, lived in China for nine years, and has traveled to over 90 countries.
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He gives therapy and training in Spanish and Mandarin.
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So he is more Chinese than I am for some reason.
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But he is also my older lab brother.
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So we have the same uh advisor, Zach Rosenthal, a Dr.
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Zach Rosenthal in at Duke.
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So we've been really good friends for a long time and just constantly learning from you, just constantly.
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So I am so happy to see you again.
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Super glad to be here.
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Super good to see you.
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Marcus.
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Um I'm really excited to talk to you about this topic today because I have been in KulaMind, we've been getting people reaching out who are parents of young adults, like parents of teens up to like in their early 20s, and they don't know what to do to help their kid.
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Their kids are non-functional.
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They are they're struggling with emotions, maybe they have some kind of substance use, they're in their room playing video games, you know, maybe not have a job or go to school, or something, something is interrupted with their career path.
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And the parents are like, I don't know what to do to help them.
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And this is driving me nuts.
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So I wanted to ask you with all of your family and parent coaching knowledge, like what, first of all, like, have you seen this too in your practice?
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Or is this like something that I'm just seeing?
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Yes.
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I think what I see is that what parents describe as the problem is, in fact, the problem for them.
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It's that like my kid is really angry, they're like engaged, they're aggressive, they're just like so quick to conflict, or or their problem is that they're anxious and they're avoiding everything and they're abusing substances and they're hyper-controlling their calories or they're binging, or they're, I don't know, just like ruminating all day, seeking reassurance, engaging in obsessive and compulsive, obsessive thinking, compulsive behaviors, or they're just like, or or they'll say, like, my kid is just like has super low self-esteem, they're constantly beating themselves up, they feel so embarrassed.
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And the parents will say, that's the problem.
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And I think where they get it wrong, and why we're seeing more and more of this problem, is that they're missing that like those things are how the kid is coping with their problem.
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That's not the problem.
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That's like they're using these behaviors, not using in an in a in a way with awareness and intention, but that those behaviors function when they are at one extreme self-harming, using drugs, you know, yelling and throwing things, threatening aggression.
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Those behaviors help them to regulate their secondary anxiety and anger.
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And that secondary anxiety and anger and shame is protecting them from feeling helpless.
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But the real problem from the kid's perspective is that they're sad.
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And it's so hard, like parents oftentimes don't see that.
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Cause like I don't see a sad kid.
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I see an angry kid, I see a kid with low self-esteem, I see a kid who's super anxious all the time.
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But but those are behaviors that are regulating those secondary emotions.
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And those secondary emotions are protecting their kid from feeling out of control.
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And they're out of control when it comes to being thinking, having this sense of agency that they're going to be able to get their needs met and their needs, that's the sadness.
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Like sadness doesn't mean that my kid is tearful, that my kid is lamenting what they don't have.
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Sadness just means there is a gap between what I want and what I have, and that something important, whether it's meaningful relationships, a meaningful career, that's missing.
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And the hope that I'll have that is missing.
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And my repeated efforts to get it has led to failure.
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And when that happens again and again, that repeated effort to get what I need, even if it happened at a very young age, if it got blocked, invalidated, if they were just unable to meet that need, then almost just like Pavlovian conditioning, there's like sadness fires as a signal saying, go get that.
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They try, they get blocked, they get invalidated, they get, they're just unable, and then they feel helpless.
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And again, sadness blocked, helplessness, sadness, blocked, helplessness.
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And just like Pavlovian conditioning, right?
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It's just like bell, meat, powder, saliva, bell, meat, powder, saliva, until eventually sadness and helplessness are fused.
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Feeling helpless is horrible, horrible.
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And so then anxiety says it's okay, you don't have to feel anxious.
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You can instead, you don't have to feel helpless, you can feel anxious instead.
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You can avoid and prevent things when you're anxious, which means you don't feel helpless.
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And then they engage in all those anxious behaviors.
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Or anger comes in and says, you don't have to feel helpless, you can feel angry.
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And when they're attacking and defending themselves, they don't that regulates their anger, but they need that anger because without it they feel helpless.
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Or shame comes in and says you don't have to feel helpless.
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You can beat yourself up, you can convince yourself this is all your fault.
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The the inability to have and make the types of relationships you want, to fill your life with the types of activities you want, it's all your fault.
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But if it's all my fault, then that means I should be able to snap my fingers and make it all go away, which means it is in my control.
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So I'm not helpless.
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So shame.
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And that's what's going on for a lot of these kids.
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And and parents are digging in to try to solve the the really what's like their kids coping how they're coping with the problem.
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But the problem is they've just got a lot of sadness and they're not expressing it directly, and they can't stay with it long enough because it's been paired with helplessness.
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My God.
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That was so well said and so spelled out and so devastating.
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So many questions.
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Can you give me an example?
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What is an age?
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Like, give me an example of like, are we talking to like middle school, high school, like like a 17-year-old or a 20-year-old, you know, like the the kind of I think I think I'm I'm just interested in like what does this look like for that transition between I'm a kid to okay, I'm about to go to college or an adult.
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I'm I'm I'm seeing a lot of like issues there.
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And I'm curious if you're you know, if you if something comes to mind or a typical scenario.
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Let me try to anchor this in like a few clients.
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I'll fuse them together so they're in, you know, not mostly because I feel like the parents of these kids tend to feel really ashamed, right?
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Because uh they they they'll say, like, oh, all my other friends are kids are like uh competing and going to this cool college or getting this job.
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And so there's like, I don't know, there's some there's something about the emerging adulthood that is like ripe for this problem.
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I think what it looks like in the kid is, for example, a lot of parents will say, my kid has terrible executive functioning skills.
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They'll say, like, my kid forgets everything, loses everything, like can't manage the most basic responsibilities.
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And as a result, the kid starts avoiding engaging in things, right?
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Because it it just gets associated with failure.
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And so the kid is in fact not trying things, they're not doing or the or the parents would be like, I'm I've been trying to tell my kid to get a driver's license for a really long time.
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I told them they can have our Jeep if they get a license.
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And the kid like won't even go get a license, and their Jeep is rad.
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Like they have like a lifted Jeep, and the kid won't, or then they'll be like, I don't even know how to motivate my kid.
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They'll be like, I told them, like, if they will, you know, if if they will make up that class that they failed last semester and do this online math class that I will send them and their friend on a trip to freaking Cabo, and the kid won't do it.
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Like they're trying, or they'll be like, I told them I'll get them the new iPhone 17.
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Like, I will do whatever.
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It's so important for me that this kid.
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And so they'll they'll call it executive functioning failures, they'll call it laziness, they'll say, like, my kid is just not interested in anything.
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All they care about is, you know, watching Dodgers and memorizing all the statistics about the game, or all they care about is if they're, you know, um, is their makeup or or or just like being on their phone scrolling endlessly.
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That's it.
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Um, so yes, parents will generally describe their kids in these ways, and those are in fact their behaviors.
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It's just those behaviors are how their kid is coping with feeling really helpless about getting their core needs met.
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And and and so, yeah, so it just looks it looks to the parents like OCD, because the kid will seek lots of reassurance from the parents.
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Like, why do my friends not like me?
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Do you think this is a weird text, mom?
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Can you read this?
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Like, what do you think?
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And I I think my friends hate me.
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Do you think my friends hate me here?
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Like, look at this.
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Um, and and yet what it really is is that that is secondary anxiety trying to rescue them from feeling helpless.
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And what's actually happening is I don't know how to fill my life with the things that I care about most.
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And maybe I don't even know what I care about most anymore.
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They've just practiced avoidance so much.
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They've practiced interrupting that sadness with and that helplessness.
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They've they've interrupted it with anger, and they're just so quick to anger that there's it's hard to be curious as a parent or as a loved one of what someone needs when they're yelling at you.
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You like you're not gonna be like, oh, tell me, what is this need that I sense behind your yelling and cussing?
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It it just they they're not gonna get that need met.
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And so it becomes a vicious cycle where the ways that they're coping with feeling out of control leads to more feelings of out of control because they're still not going to get their needs met, what sadness is pointing them to.
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So fascinating.
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Is I mean, is there any truth to this?
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Like, is then is this next generation screwed?
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Like they're they're like on on the on the less clinical uh side, I'm like, yeah, as a parent, if a kid is not like doing their homework or doing all the things, I might be like, well, back in my day, we would just figure out, like, figure out how to make how to you know get a driver's license.
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Um, is is it just like something something in the air or something going on in our society?
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I just like kids.
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No.
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They they are as on the whole, they're the most compassionate generation.
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They are like they are so caring.
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I feel like in my generation, we were so judgmental of differences.
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This generation is accepting they're less judgmental, they're more caring.
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They care about things that I didn't even know existed when I was their age.
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Um, problems that I didn't even I couldn't even conceive.
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And so and also this generation is aware of like work-life, like of like work-life balance and and and they're mindful of what they don't have but need.
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And therefore, if you know, like I I can't just like I think boomers and Gen X and even to some degree millennials, like when we get really sad, I think we just turn to like lots of work.
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I feel like this generation is more compassionate on the whole.
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They are more accepting and understanding.
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They're less likely to say, Oh, I have a problem.
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I'm just gonna power through and become a workaholic to cope with it.
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They're just like, this job makes me really unhappy.
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And I don't see a scenario where it does make me happy, so I'm just not gonna do it.
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Like, kids today will wake up and they'll be like, Am I gonna go to school today?
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But like, that's never a question that I ever asked.
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Like, I never had a day where I'd like to wake up and be like, Am I gonna go to school today?
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But they're actually just trying to figure out like, is this going to help me get my needs met?
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No, I don't think it is.
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So I'm not gonna do it.
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And I think that brings about helpful changes, or it can potentially.
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So I would say, no, this generation is not screwed, but they do have challenges that other generations didn't face.
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And I don't have like a comprehensive list of those challenges, but they have so much information.
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Like they like January 6th was terrifying for me.
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And I'm like 45 years old.
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I was like, oh shoot, like, is our democracy gonna collapse?
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Or like, or, or, or there's all these people on social media talking about like why we need Bitcoin and because our currency is so unstable and our economy could crash, and we need this external source of.
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I I think they're so aware of the problems and the threats, like global warming.
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Like, I didn't, I don't think I ever saw a picture of like a polar bear struggling to like find the next piece of ice to stand on.
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Like these kids have those images like burned into their hippocampus.
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Like it's so tricky.
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It's really, really challenging.
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Like they're like watching bulldozers knock down the rainforest in Peru and Brazil.
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And like, I don't think I even knew exactly where the rainforest was.
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I think that these kids just have so much information now, and yet their prefrontal cortex is not fully formed yet.
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So they don't even know how to regulate all of the like sadness that that brings up to watch a massive bulldozer knock over hundred, you know, trees that are hundreds of years old that sustain, you know, hundreds of animals that that live in this ecosystem.
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And I think that they just they're facing problems that they are in fact helpless to do anything about.
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And so they have more sources of sadness and the problems they're facing because they're so massive, they do feel justifiably pretty helpless to do anything about most of those problems.
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God, that's terrifying.
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I mean, it's so funny to think that parents, like when I think of like a teen or a young adult getting sucked into like TikTok and what that does to mental health, I would assume that it's not about like getting to know current events or world um, you know, world changes or anything.
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I would think, oh, they're just gonna watch like stupid, like brain rot content.
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But it's like, yeah, I guess if you have a compassionate group of kids who are way more emotionally aware than the previous generations, and on their phone, they're seeing horrible things happen on a daily basis.
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And I will say, the more I learn about tech, the more it's like social media is designed to stress you out because rage bait and upsetting content is actually way more engageable.
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Like people engage in things that are upsetting.
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So it's going to be like the algorithm is going to favor showing you horrifying things.
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And they're sitting there on their phone looking at it with nothing that they could do about it.
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And not even understanding how the system works, right?
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Like I had a client who later learned how the social media algorithm works, but she already has some like OCD tendencies.
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This is like a kid in middle school, and then like on Instagram, they would there would be like a video of like someone's dog dying.
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And then it would show like the person like holding their dog like on those like surgery table at the veterinarian's office, and then look, and there's like sad music and they're like crying and saying goodbye to their dog.
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And so then my patient likes the video.
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Oh man.
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Right?
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She likes the video.
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And and and then there's a part of her, because one the very first time she saw a video like that, it said, which is so messed up, the video said, if you don't like this video, or maybe I don't know if it said this or if she believed this or understood it, but she had this understanding that the video told her, if you don't like this, then something like this might happen to your dog.
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And so then, so again, I can't imagine there was actually a video that said, like, like our video, or some, but so probably.
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No, it definitely did to get to the viral post.
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That's horrible.
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So this kid, this kid likes the video because she's like, I don't want that to happen to my dog.
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So then the algorithm's like, oh, you like dying dogs?
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It gives her another one.
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And she's like, Oh shoot, I have to like it.
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And then another one, oh shoot, I have to like it.
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And so so in the end, this is I'm laughing.
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It's horrible.
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Like it's like it's not funny, right?
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This kid's entire social media stream was dying dogs.
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Right.
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And this kid is like horrified.
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She's she's all at once feeling so sad and all at once feeling like so helpless, like just like hating, like feeling so anxious, thinking, oh shoot, I've got to like this.
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I've got to watch it all the way to the end.
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And I have to follow them too.
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I can't just like it, I have to follow them because they asked me to follow them.
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And if I don't follow them, something bad might happen to my dog.
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And she doesn't even understand why this is happening.
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Later, right?
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Like when she got into like high school, actually, it was in our session that I explained to her how the algorithm works.
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And she's like, oh my gosh, that makes sense.
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:56.400
And she was able to like break free from these videos, constantly feeding.
00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:01.279
Well, she actually had to like uninstall, she like stopped using like Instagram.
00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:07.200
But she was able to take it back up later when she understood, oh, that's how it works.
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:12.640
But like, even just that, like there's so many rules that you have to learn.
00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:13.839
Like growing up is hard.
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:18.400
Like, I you have to learn, like, when you wash your feet, also wash the I'm literally teaching that to my daughter.
00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:21.839
Like, she'll she'll take a shower and she forgot to wash the bottom of her feet.
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:38.640
And then she wipes the bottom of her foot after her shower on the white towel, and it just leaves this, like you're you're like learning all these things as a kid, like constantly learning, like, oh, don't forget to soap the bottom of your feet, like floss and brush your teeth, and look people in the eyes when you greet them.
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:42.720
Like, there's an infinite number of things that these kids are learning all the time.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:50.960
It feels like when you move to a new country and you're like becoming oriented to their culture, but that's just the experience of a child every day.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:53.519
They're constantly learning the rules.
00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:56.240
Like when you're done with your towel, hang it up.
00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:58.880
Don't leave it in a bunch on the floor, right?
00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:00.240
That's like a rule of life.
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.279
Like we're teaching them and they're constantly learning.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:09.759
But now, in addition, like, and they're also learning the rules of socializing, of like connecting with people.
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:30.480
And then what happens is there's these really, really complicated, unintuitive algorithms on these social media platforms, which is like the best way that they can connect with their friends because now all millennials and Gen X are so anxious, they don't let their kids actually just like go out and hang out with their friends, right?
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:32.400
So, like our generation is freaked out.
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:39.279
Like, none of our kids are like out there getting hurt and breaking limbs on bikes because their parents were like, I'm not gonna let you do that.
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:51.680
But in our generation, like all the time there's kids like messed up because they would do like we would make like jumps in our backyard, and they were just like super dangerous.
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:55.920
And our parents would be like, Oh, it seems like a bad idea, but like good luck.
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:58.240
Oh my god.
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:18.559
I didn't think about how awful that is for young people, and I think it's it it is so interesting because so much of their like socializing and connection are mediated by these these like companies like the meta and the you know TikTok and everything like that.
00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:27.119
And they want to your goal is to connect, but their goal is to get you to pay more and what and stay on the app, right?
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:31.839
So they will they will like feed you things to get you to stay on the app.
00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:43.599
I actually heard recently that the all the dating apps are their algorithms are shifting to matching you with people that you wouldn't actually match well with.
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:44.240
What?
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:48.559
Just like hot people that you would date, but not actually fall in love with.
00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:51.839
Right, because then you keep coming back to date.
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:55.119
You won't actually just oh, that is dark.
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:56.640
That is just like so.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:04.240
I know, and and and and I fully believe that, but like also that's wild.
00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:10.880
Yeah, so if you're dating on the app and you were like, I can't find love, it must be me, right?
00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:16.720
Like this is this is inserting a company in like the most personal form of connection.
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:19.839
You're like, why am I why am I striking out all the time?
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:21.279
I'm I guess I'm unlovable.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:25.200
It's like, no, because you're only seeing people that you would never fall in love with.
00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:28.960
That's and like horrifying.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:29.519
Yeah.
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:34.880
And then there's all like in my mind, I'm thinking about my young adult patients, and I'm like, oh my God.
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:36.240
Like, I need to tell them that.
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.599
I need to go tell them like this makes so much sense.
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:40.319
Yeah.
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:58.480
And and anything on you see on Instagram or TikTok, all the things that are like comment or like or whatever, they they it's manipulating you to engage, which means that their content is pushed out further, which probably feeds back to getting them more money.
00:23:58.480 --> 00:23:59.119
Like, right?
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:02.559
It's just it's growing an account, it's advertising something.
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:18.000
So yeah, this it's just interesting to think about like the from the perspective of young people trying to understand how the world works and they're learning through systems that are just designed to make money off of you.
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:27.599
And this generation learns about the system that they're learning from at a super young age.
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:40.559
Because there are some really, really brilliant TikTokers and Instagram, whatever influencers who can explain what you said really concisely, really clearly.
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:46.000
And now they understand, oh my gosh, this dating app doesn't actually want me to find love.
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:48.400
It just wants me to keep using the dating app.
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:53.839
And then it just cultivates the cynicism that is realistic, by the way.
00:24:53.839 --> 00:25:01.279
Like if you feel cynical, after hearing that, it's like, yeah, but that's not like that's not pathological cynicism.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:18.160
That is just a real view of the world where where you are the product, your attention, your time is what they're fishing for, and they can see that clearly, and then they're distrusting and they just feel like there's no point, right?
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:18.880
Like, what was it?
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:27.920
I saw this quote, it said, like you're closer, like it said, like I everyone needs to be reminded, you're closer to being unhoused than you are to being a billionaire, right?
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:32.799
And that's true for like almost the entire planet's population.
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:39.200
And there's these little nuggets of truth that are just like out there, and these kids get exposed to that.
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:43.200
And if they really reflect on that piece of information, they're like, wait, that's like fully true.
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:47.519
Like, I'm way closer to being unhoused than I am to being a billionaire.
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:53.680
And that's there's just information like that out there that has been made so attainable.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:26:03.119
Like now people take what used to be a seven-minute lecture and they have to crank, crank it down into 30 seconds, and they really can deliver.
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:05.519
Like, I've learned how to do my taxes online.
00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:17.359
Like, honestly, like I've learned how to like open a business online because you know, they have they've just condensed information to make it so consumable.
00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:35.440
And these kids are consuming this information and it's too much for them to take in, and it's cultivating helplessness, it's cultivating the sense that I'm out of control of getting my core needs met, which then necessitates these secondary emotions.
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:56.160
Like unless, unless they have a super attuned parent, a parent who can who can validate their experience, co-regulate with them, soothe them when they can't regulate themselves, while also teaching them to like hang up the towel, not throw it on a bunch in the floor and it gets mildewy.
00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.240
Like that's it, it just requires like it's so hard for the parents too.
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:11.039
I just want to I I think it's important to acknowledge it's that these parents are trying to teach their kids all the things, like look both ways before you cross the street, and like don't take candy from strangers.
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:12.400
Yeah, like all those things.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:34.079
And they're also trying to help them figure out which of these emotions are primary and you need to do what the emotion tells you to do, and which of these emotions are secondary, and you actually just need to manage that emotion by acting opposite to that secondary anxiety, that secondary anger, that secondary shame.
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:44.720
It it is more challenging as well, I think, to be a parent when your kid has access to information that you don't have.
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:48.160
And I think that's that's new.
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:53.839
I think like back in the 80s, parents knew more than their kids, almost all of the time.
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:55.920
Not always, but almost all of the time.
00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:04.960
But now that these kids have these devices, some of them getting them in elementary school, there are some areas, some things that their kids just know so much more about.
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:12.400
And some of those things lead to justified cynicism, fear, a sense of helplessness.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:23.599
In a minute, I'll I'll ask you like what parents should do about this, but from the perspective of parents, what does the world look like to them?
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:29.359
For example, like when you're saying like dealing with all these emotions for parents who are like, I don't do emotions.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:39.119
What what parents are trying to do is make sure their kids are doing doing the things that long term will lead to a successful life, right?
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:41.119
Like go to school.
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:47.279
Like even if you wake up and don't feel like it, go to school because your grades will get you to college, will get you a good job.
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.519
Go get go to a good college, right?
00:28:49.519 --> 00:29:04.160
They they're looking at these long-term goals for career and life milestones, but you're saying that the kids are not seeing those long-term benefits, and they're focusing on like, does this feel good to me today?
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:06.319
But what what long-term goals do they have?
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:08.720
Like, what does the world, what do they want to do with their life?
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:13.599
Like, what motivates them to go to school or to possibly get a job?
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:31.440
Or I just because especially when you said, like, oh, we're closer to being unhoused than to be a billionaire, actually online on social media, you're seeing a ton of influencers who are like, yeah, I'm 22 years old, I'm an influencer, now I'm making millions of dollars.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:32.720
I don't even go to school.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:39.920
So the future goals look, I don't even know what the world looks like and what kids are striving for these days.
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:40.960
Yeah.
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:59.839
I do think that it's really helpful for parents to take a dialectical view of the problem, meaning like a flexible view, not a dichotomous all or nothing view around, for example, since you mentioned education, that there are a million ways that their kid can grow up.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:02.000
To be healthy and well adjusted.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:04.480
And going to school is one of them.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:05.839
It's not necessary.
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:09.119
Going to a good college is certainly not necessary, right?
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:12.319
Like you and I went to like a good school for grad school.
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:14.240
You went to good schools for all the way through.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:16.480
You know, you go, I went to a good grad school.
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:20.400
But like we know people who were there that were like really, really unhappy.
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.119
And I've been to schools that aren't super good.
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:25.440
And I see kids that are super happy.
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:29.119
And I think parents know that in their wise mind.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:32.000
It's just hard to hold on to that truth.
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.759
I think that's one thing.
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:58.799
I think the other thing that parents need to do is to trust that, like to be curious, to slow down when they see their kids anxious and angry and full of like what feels like unjustified shame or shame that is or sadness, sorry, anger and anxiety and shame that are just disproportionate to the situation at hand.
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:06.799
When they're seeing that, I think what they can do is to get curious about like what is my kid's need right now?
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:12.240
Because I think this might just be how they're coping with not getting their need met.
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:20.240
And it's not as simple, the younger the kid is, the harder it is because it's it's not as simple with the young kid to just say, Well, what is it that you need right now?
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:28.720
I see you, you know, engaging in this angry behavior, this anxious ruminative behavior, this shame hiding behavior.
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:35.680
And I sense that maybe it's these behaviors are protecting you from feeling helpless and you feel helpless about getting your needs met.
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:36.480
What are that?
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:41.920
I think if you ask that question to an 11-year-old, they're just gonna be like, I need you to not be an idiot, Dad, right?
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:44.640
Like, they're not gonna be able to answer that question.
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:59.359
But for us to be asking that question even so, and curious and collecting the answer over time, because I think that the answer is the same answer since like the beginning of humankind.
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:02.400
It's that like, what is what are our core needs?
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:06.079
It's that we want to fill our lives with meaningful activities.
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:07.920
That's happiness.
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:12.480
We want to fill our lives with meaningful relationships, that's love, right?
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:17.519
And so sadness is saying there's something important missing in my life.
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:22.960
And when you boil it down to its essence, it's that what's missing are meaningful activities, i.e.
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:23.839
happiness.
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:27.119
What's missing is meaningful relationships, i.e.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:27.839
love.
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:50.319
And I think you can start with these broad categories as parents, but when the kid is telling you, like, I really need, and then they're telling you, like, I have to have my iPad, you know, or or the kid is saying, like, I have to have, I have these like young kids, these are like kids in their 20s getting like preventative Botox.
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:54.559
I don't know, like they're getting, yeah, like, and they're like, I have to have this.
00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:01.039
Um, that beneath that is a core need, likely.
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:14.880
And if the parents can get, can not react, which is so hard to not react to that initial response, then it allows them to stay more curious and figure out, like, yes, I know in this moment that's what you want.
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:33.759
And I'm trying to figure out after I regulate my own emotions, why it makes sense and how I can help you have more clarity about your core needs, hope that you're going to get them, meaning agency, so you don't feel so helpless in the face of those needs.
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:47.200
And then do what I can to like collaboratively problem solve and try to get you as much of those things as possible, which is meaningful activities, i.e., happiness, meaningful relationships, i.e., love.
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:51.200
That's so awesome.
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.400
That's so like powerfully said.
00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:56.400
What does that look like practically?
00:33:56.400 --> 00:34:07.519
Like, let's say, I mean, I'm seeing this already in my three-year-old, and I, you know, I see it with teenagers all the time where they go like, Mom, I want to play, you know, I want my iPad.
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:09.199
Can I just can I watch some TV?
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:10.559
I want to play Roblox.
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:15.519
And then in that moment, you know, you they you could sense that they're feeling something.
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:16.559
But then what do you say?
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:17.519
Do you say yes?
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:18.559
Do you say no?
00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:20.079
Do you get into the battle?
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:20.960
Do you pause?
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:22.800
Like, what does it what do you do?
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:29.840
I mean, it's it just it's the variability family to family is too great to even answer that question.
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:36.480
But I'll say what you don't do is you don't match their dysregulation with your own dysregulation, right?
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:45.840
Like, if you are also dysregulated, which by the way, I say that and I'm like laughing because like I can't like I can't even do that myself consistently, right?
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:59.440
Like when I see my kids like getting really, really dysregulated, it's so hard for me to be like, let me stay super zen and be really curious and be really validating.
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:03.039
I don't, I don't know how to do that, but I know that that's the goal.
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:06.800
Like it at the very minimum, it's like do no harm.
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:08.960
Like, don't make a bad situation worse.
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:10.960
Like it's gotta start there.
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:17.920
And when we react to their secondary anger with our anger, now we're making things worse.
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:25.760
If if we react to their anxiety with our own anxiety, so the kid says, I don't want to go to school today, and we're and then the parents like, what?
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:28.000
What do you mean?
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:31.280
What are you gonna do with your life?
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:42.639
And then the parents start like, it's like, um, I would say step one is like, and and what does it even mean to regulate?
00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:45.760
I would say like start with your body.
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:49.920
Like, like I I need to just like breathe in a way that's calm.
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:58.239
I need my I need to notice when there's this tension in my chest, when there's like skeletal muscles down my spine that are tense.
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:00.480
It's not even like I'm not like flexing my arms.
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:04.880
It's literally that there's like muscles that are tight and I'm not even in control of them.
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:09.599
I need to notice that and be like, oh, let me soften my back.
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:18.000
Let me drop my shoulders, let me like breathe slow and steady.
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:37.920
Like it starts with like calming my body so that I can maybe calm my mind, so that I can maybe regulate my emotions, so that I can maybe get curious about what my kid is experiencing.
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:54.159
And then maybe from that come curious questions that help them figure out what their needs are, so that maybe we can together work on that problem and on increasing their sense of agency to get those needs met.
00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:55.599
Right?
00:36:55.599 --> 00:37:00.480
Like there's just there's so many maybes that like it's not just that the kid feels helpless.
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:05.519
The parents feel like there's just too many dominoes in this in this series of events.
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:11.440
I don't think that me slowing down, pausing before I respond and breathing is gonna fix it.
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:12.960
The problem is too big.
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:21.840
And I agree, like it's not that simple, but it's still a necessary starting point, is like don't match their dysregulation with your own.
00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:24.719
Love that.
00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:25.599
I love that.
00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:27.599
I what do you do then?
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:29.280
I mean, that's easier said than done.
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:42.320
I mean, I I you know, especially when the dysregulation is about like a thing in the day, like putting on socks or you know, TV or not TV, then it's like, okay, how do I regulate?
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:46.480
But like, should I just give them the TV or you know, not but what do you do?
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:52.400
This is this is a place where it's ripe for dysregulation in general, right?
00:37:52.400 --> 00:38:02.639
For getting upset when the kid pushes your buttons in a way that's like accusing the parent of something or projecting something.
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:16.800
I've I've heard some people say, like, you know, when the I could tell my kid is upset about something or feeling shame or something, angry, and then they accuse me of something that I don't I didn't do.
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:22.719
Like, for example, sending them a text about, you know, a question about what are you gonna do in school?
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:24.320
And they go, Oh, you're judging me.
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:27.840
You think that I'm dumb and you you don't think that I can do anything.
00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:36.719
And then the parents are stuck between like, uh, okay, I know I'm not supposed to argue against it, but I feel like I I want to defend and say, no, I love you.
00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:37.840
That's not what I think.
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:45.920
But then I don't know how to like validate or or you know, like I don't want to say yes, your feelings are valid here.
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:48.880
Um, and I also don't want to say no, you're wrong.
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:56.400
So, like, what do you do when the kids are like, mom, dad, you you are ruining my life and you hate me and blah, blah, blah.
00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:58.800
And the parents are like, yeah.
00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:06.719
I think that maybe they can get curious about ways and times that they have done that.
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:13.760
And while their current accusation of you being judgmental is not accurate, it doesn't fit the facts.
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:20.159
But maybe what they're responding to is that historically you have.
00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:23.679
And so you as a parent could be like, what?
00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:24.559
I'm not judging you.
00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:27.199
I'm literally just trying to help you solve this problem.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:31.840
And yet you could also pause and be like, okay, that's fair.
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:46.960
Because while in this moment I don't think I'm judging, I think your hypersensitivity to my judgment, I'm sure it doesn't just like it's not delusional of you to think of me as judgmental.
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:55.920
And so, like, yes, I think I have been judgmental, which is why you're so sensitive to any sign of it.
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:58.239
I don't think that I was being so just now.
00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:03.119
And yet, like it, and then you would like name a specific thing and be like, yeah, like that is true.
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:05.920
Like, I have been judgmental about this thing.
00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:10.639
And so your worry of me judging you is super justified.
00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:15.760
I think sometimes kids will really, really appreciate that, right?
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:41.679
There was this study done across the University of Michigan, the entire medical center, like the entire um hospital system where they decided for a year that they were going to tell their doctors that when they made a mistake surgically or in any sort of procedure, that they were going to directly express, I made a mistake, I'm so sorry, instead of like trying to hide it and be like, oh what?
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:48.639
Like, I didn't, you know, do surgery on the wrong knee, you know, or like I didn't pull the wrong tooth from the wrong side of your mouth.
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:52.159
And instead they'll just acknowledge, like, I messed up to the parent.
00:40:52.159 --> 00:41:00.000
And sometimes it's like it was awful because sometimes the the mistake cost them their loved ones' life, which is there's nothing you can do to make that come back.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.719
But but the family members would sue, of course.
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:13.599
And so they were saying, let's try to engage in an experiment over the course of this year where we acknowledge our mistakes, we directly apologize for them.
00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:21.039
And so they did that, and their lawsuits dropped by, I forget the exact numbers.
00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:24.719
I can look this up and I can give it to you, but it dropped by more than half.
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:33.599
So they um I share this all the time with my classes, but I usually have the paper in front of me to share the actual statistics.
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:35.199
Maybe I'll send it to you.
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:57.840
But it's this, it's this radical idea that we thought, like, no, if you directly acknowledge I in I made a mistake, and my mistake cost you the ability to walk, to see, or the life of your loved one, you would think, oh, now that you admitted fault, now you're gonna get the pantsuit off of you.
00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:59.920
But the opposite was true.
00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:07.199
There were fewer lawsuits because they know like this lawsuit isn't bringing my loved one back.
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:10.800
But they also feel like you need to take accountability.
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:30.559
And if you're not going to take accountability, if I don't see the remorse, like I hear so many stories in hospitals of where, of where the doctors will make, will will try really hard to save their patient and then they don't, and then they'll go and like cry in the you know back room.
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:36.000
This is saying like show that to the patient.
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:39.840
But now because we're talking about parents, I'm saying show that to your kid.
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:41.280
Like, I messed up.
00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:45.119
It's not in this moment, because I don't think you're right.
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:51.679
I don't think that I'm being judgmental, but I think that your sensitivity to my judgment fully makes sense.
00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:52.800
It does.
00:42:52.800 --> 00:43:04.239
And if we can, if we can start there and acknowledge that, like, for example, when I tell my daughter, like, whatever, like, pick up your towel, like, don't leave it on a bunch on the floor, it gets mildewy.
00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:07.599
And she'll be like, Why are you being so judgmental?
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:08.400
I'll be like, I wasn't.
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:11.760
I was literally just telling you, like, I was trying to teach you how that works.
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:14.719
But then I'll pause and be like, no, no, like you're right.
00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:19.360
I have been consistently like very judgmental today.
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:27.199
Almost everything I've said is a criticism, is teaching you, is correcting you.
00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:34.960
I I haven't even actually checked in with you today about how you're doing, what was the best part of your day, what's something new you learned.
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:57.360
Um, and I can acknowledge, like I don't know what it looks like, but it looks like trusting that their experience makes sense and calming our own body and mind down enough to get curious about why it makes sense, so that then we can just try to solve the problem that your kid has, um, which maybe is that they feel overwhelmed.
00:43:57.360 --> 00:44:01.679
And so we say, Hey, you know, next time, like make sure you hang up your towel.
00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:09.039
And I even say it like with like like an apologetic, like, if it's not too inconvenient, you know, like please hang up your towel.
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:14.079
Like, we're if if you want, but like also like I totally get it if you can't.
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:17.119
So we're like trying to be like super gentle.
00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:24.960
And and if their reaction is really big to also say, like, I know that makes sense.
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:32.320
Like, I imagine, like, I imagine you're feeling really, really stressed and don't fully have all the emotion regulation skills to handle that.
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:40.079
And more importantly, you don't have the life skills to solve the problems that are gonna get your needs met.
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:44.000
Emotions are just there to signal that there's this problem.
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:49.199
But you know, maybe beneath that is that there's problems that I can't solve.
00:44:49.199 --> 00:45:02.639
And so we have to like teach them like, let's like watch that video together of the polar bear struggling to find a block of ice and be like, and just like walk them through like, here's how I try to do that, instead of like just saying, like, that's not important.
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:03.280
Don't think about that.
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:05.519
What's important is your math test tomorrow, you know.
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:14.880
But like, if we're going to model emotion regulation and problem solving, then say, like, hmm, here's what comes through my mind when I see this.
00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:27.840
Here's what I'm thinking, here's how I try to work through these types of situations so that they can learn from us how to regulate, but also learn from us how to solve problems and get our help in doing both.
00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:33.760
I love that you're advocating for parents actually taking accountability.
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:46.960
I feel like taking accountability is such a sensitive topic because especially with cancel culture and so much avoidance and shaming and good and bad.
00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:55.280
Um, I I believe that people are scared to take accountability because if they do, then they'll be seen as a bad person cut out, right?
00:45:55.280 --> 00:46:00.800
Like if in that moment, if I if my kid is like, you're being judgmental, you hate me, you're a judgment.
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:04.159
And I say, Yes, you're right, I was judgmental today.
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:06.480
I would be afraid that that'll be it.
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:08.400
Like I'll have no other room.
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:15.920
That kid will just think that I think terribly of him, and all of his fears and accusations are justified.
00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:23.039
But I love that you're saying that actually it might soften that rigid, like polarize, you are the problem.
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:25.199
And it's like, oh, I'm a little bit of the problem.
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:30.000
Not at this moment, but yes, you you are there's a kernel of truth in there.
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:30.880
Yeah.
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:33.039
Wow.
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:42.880
So what are what are other strategies for parents to build the study?
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:43.519
Sorry, can I?
00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:44.480
Oh, nice, yes.
00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:48.639
Okay, so it's the University of Michigan's disclosure and offer program.
00:46:48.639 --> 00:47:01.599
So the hospital in 2001 implemented a program where they said, we're going to report errors, we're going to disclose them to patients and their families, we're going to explain what went wrong, we're going to apologize, and we are going to offer compensation.
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:02.079
Right.
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:18.480
That's that's the four elements of like an effective apology is like acknowledge what happened, say sorry, express remorse in some way, like commit to not doing that thing again, and then ask them what I can do to repair the harm I caused.
00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:32.000
So before versus after, the claims dropped from seven claims per 100,000 patient encounters to 4.5 claims per 100,000% encounters, 100,000 encounters, which is a 30% reduction in lawsuits.
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:36.639
Oh, that's a 30% reduction in claims, but lawsuits fell by more than half.
00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:39.039
Costs dropped by 60%.
00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:41.840
And the resolution time got shorter, right?
00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:45.599
Like it's this idea of it's so counterintuitive.
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:55.440
We think if I go in there and acknowledge like I made a mistake and we disclose that directly, like, yes, I was in fact having a judgmental thought.
00:47:55.440 --> 00:48:01.440
And even though I think my tone wasn't judgmental, I was thinking, like, why can't you just do this?
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:04.239
I was, you're right.
00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:06.719
And that probably came through somehow.
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:09.119
If not in this moment, it has in the past.
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:14.639
And so I think, yeah, I thought that study was so interesting.
00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:16.239
Wait, what hospital is that?
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:18.079
Michigan, University of Michigan.
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:20.400
Wow, what a brave, amazing hospital.
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:26.639
That is so, I would my first reaction was like, oh my God, no, they can't admit fault because that then they're going to be sued.
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:29.679
But wow, that's really cool.
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:31.280
That's really cool.
00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:39.920
What other what other things should parents do to help their kid along in the adulthood?
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:54.000
Like, you know, when you have a kid who is maybe like college age or after, and you want to help them launch, you want to help them be self-sufficient, you want to help them be financially independent.
00:48:54.000 --> 00:49:01.199
I'm hearing a lot of like, do I keep paying my kids' rent or do I stop and let them be unhoused?
00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:04.079
Like, what do you say in those moments?
00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:06.800
I know it's different for every family, but like generally.
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:22.719
See, I'm gonna go really vague.
00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:27.760
I think you want something specific, but I'm gonna go vague, and then maybe I'll try to bring it back to something specific.
00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:41.679
I think my advice is that to remember that most, like the vast, vast, vast majority of kids really crave their parents' acceptance and love.
00:49:41.679 --> 00:49:45.119
Like they just really, really crave that.
00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:54.719
I'm like 45 years old, and when I like post something online, I want my mom and dad to see it.
00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:55.920
They're not even on that.
00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:59.599
So I have to take a screenshot and send it to them in a group chat.
00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:03.920
Like, I just want their approval and love.
00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:06.400
And I thought I would like grow out of that.
00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:18.239
But like, I would say, like, one thing is like parents need to remember that your like your kid craves that, as you still crave that from your parents if you're mindful of it.
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:28.559
And then do what you can to provide as much of that as you can to your kid and do the work that you need to do for yourself.
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:31.440
Like, we have unmet needs, right?
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:32.639
Like, what was it?
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:36.960
I saw this um, I saw this really interesting quote.
00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:45.440
It said something like, it was like, oh, I want to find it because I I I just like I collected like memes online.
00:50:45.440 --> 00:50:56.800
And it said, I think it said something like, deal with your demons, or they're gonna raise your kids.
00:50:56.800 --> 00:50:59.440
You know, or something like that.
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:07.440
It was just this idea of like, if you don't deal with your own, face your demons, or they will raise your kids.
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:09.440
Right.
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:17.679
And it's this idea of like we have these internal wounds ourselves.
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:23.199
We have our own anxiety of like, is my kid gonna be okay?
00:51:23.199 --> 00:51:35.760
Um so like at one point I would say like managing our own, like getting our own corners, but that's like so vague.
00:51:36.000 --> 00:52:01.440
Maybe like what people also want is more concrete strategies, and I think for that I would say well, for example, I'm sure some parents would be like, Yeah, I am showing them that I care.
00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:05.119
I'm telling them to go to good college, I'm telling them to get a job.
00:52:05.119 --> 00:52:08.639
If I didn't love them, I wouldn't be pushing them this hard.
00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:09.119
Yeah.
00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:30.079
And I can, I can, you know, as much as we're we love emotion invalidating, like if my son grows up and is like a DJ dating his AI girlfriend, I might be like, son, I don't think I approve of all of your unless it's like he's a really good DJ and the AI girlfriend's AI girlfriend's really good.
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:33.039
He's a really good daughter-in-law, like then I'd be okay.
00:52:33.039 --> 00:52:52.960
But like, I I I think I would have a hard time, you know, like proving everything they're doing versus like showing love is such a tough nuance because there are a lot of parents out there who's just like, I show love by making sure that they have a good life, even if I'm not nice, even if they don't like it, like if they don't earn a living, they're not gonna be happy.
00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:54.559
And that's that's the way I show love.
00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:55.280
So what do you do?
00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:56.480
It's true, right?
00:52:56.480 --> 00:53:02.960
Like, that's like what makes people happy isn't like having more stuff and gadgets.
00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:13.039
It's like having a sense of mastery, having a sense of like confidence that I can do things and make a meaningful impact on the world around me in ways that matter.
00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:14.960
Like that, so that is true.
00:53:14.960 --> 00:53:22.400
And then I would say try to articulate as best you can to parent to your kid, and just say, like, on the one hand, I'm torn.
00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:24.400
I just want to like give you all the stuff you want.
00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:34.480
And you're saying you just want to sit in your room and watch, watch iPad all day, and that will in fact bring you more happiness right now and less anxiety if you do that.
00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:52.400
And I believe, and this might be a faulty belief based on like my generation and how the world worked, but I believe that is not going to lead to ultimate happiness and really getting your core needs met, which is filling your life with meaningful activities and filling your life with meaningful relationships.
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:54.719
I don't see this as a path forward for you.
00:53:54.719 --> 00:54:20.239
And so I believe that the most loving thing I can do is to push you out of your room, away from your device, and towards activities that are going to show you that you are not helpless, that you can handle defeat and pain, and that you are capable of filling your life with the things that matter to you most.
00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:24.239
And I believe you doing well on this math test is a part of that.
00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:32.320
I don't think that this math test makes your life good, but I really want you to know you can do this.
00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:33.599
You're not dumb.
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:41.199
And I worry that your belief that you're dumb and that you can't learn math is going to haunt you for a long time.
00:54:41.199 --> 00:54:48.400
And I just need to squash that until you tell me that you are unwilling.
00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:56.480
But for now, I'm gonna push you as hard as I can while I can because I think that that's a really loving thing to do.
00:54:56.480 --> 00:55:06.239
Because I don't want you to walk away truly believing I cannot do this, because that will cascade into a number of other things in your life that you're gonna believe you can't do.
00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:07.440
I know you can.
00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:09.039
I want to work with you.
00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:13.599
It might take as many iterations, but I want to work with you to show you that you can.
00:55:13.599 --> 00:55:15.920
So I would orient my kid then.
00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:19.519
I would like, I wouldn't just say you have to do your math, right?
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:23.119
You have to like try out for the volleyball team.
00:55:23.119 --> 00:55:40.639
I would say, I would tell them why I see this as being relevant to their core needs, or at least to undermining their helplessness that will one day then allow them to stay connected to their sadness long enough to get their core needs met.
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:47.440
But you've got like you've got to explain that or try to explain that, even if it's to like a nine-year-old, you know.
00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:53.199
And sometimes you explain things through like just trying to come up with different creative ways to say that.
00:55:53.199 --> 00:56:03.360
But that's the message, is like it would be easier for me to let you just play on your devices, but I don't actually believe that's going to lead to long-term like wellness.
00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:07.119
And so for your sake, like I've just got to push you away from that.
00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:13.760
And I'm gonna push until you make it so, so, so clear that I cannot push you.
00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:17.039
And then I'm going to practice acceptance because you're my kid and I love you.
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:19.440
And no matter what, I just want to be close to you.
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:25.039
And I'm gonna try to balance staying close to you with pushing you to have the best life that you can.
00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:32.000
Like, I want Marcus to be my dad.
00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:33.920
This is so beautiful.
00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:39.840
For every parent listening, there the transcript of this podcast will be wherever you're listening to this.
00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:47.679
So you can just copy and paste all the beautiful message that he said, run it through ChatGPT and say, make this for my kid, and then just say it.
00:56:47.679 --> 00:56:49.440
And then you'll be you'll be golden.
00:56:49.440 --> 00:56:53.360
Um, Marcus, thank you so much.
00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:56.960
This was, I mean, I feel like inspired, I'm informed.
00:56:56.960 --> 00:57:07.119
I I feel like a lot less terror and helplessness as a parent because I think that a lot of parents feel like secondary or like vicarious helplessness.
00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:18.400
Um, how can families or um yeah, how can families or parents find you if they are interested in working with you or learning more about what you do?
00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:19.039
Yeah.
00:57:19.039 --> 00:57:23.840
I mean, I I I about a year and a half ago I started posting things on LinkedIn.
00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:26.000
So I like to write thoughts like this there.
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:39.360
Um, and my website, the youth and familyinstitute.com, if they're looking for parent coaching, if they're looking for therapy for their loved one or for themselves, um that would be a good place.
00:57:39.760 --> 00:57:41.920
Is that just for people who are living in California?
00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:44.159
Are there resources for right now?
00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:49.199
Yeah, we're just working with um folks who are we're only licensed in California.
00:57:52.719 --> 00:57:53.760
Sounds good.
00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:54.800
Thanks again.
00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:59.599
This has been wonderful and appreciate you coming on and chatting with me today.
00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:00.639
Yeah.
00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:03.119
All right, little helpers.
00:58:03.119 --> 00:58:21.599
If you want to help us with our core needs and want to feel agency and mastery, leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and send this to a friend who needs uh a few strategies to deal with their kid who's struggling.
00:58:21.599 --> 00:58:23.599
See you next week.
00:58:23.599 --> 00:58:37.280
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