Holly Howard: Work Practices, Relationships, and Capitalism

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Hey, welcome to another episode of A Fine Human, the podcast where we talk to fine human beings.
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And today we have somebody who helped me become a fine human being, Holly Howard, my executive coach of over seven years.
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And we're gonna talk about value alignment as a leader.
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We're gonna talk about capitalism, and we're gonna talk about AI in the workplace.
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So I hope you enjoy it.
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I think it's really, really good, especially if you are somebody that's becoming a leader.
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I think you'll really enjoy this one.
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Hi, welcome to another episode of A Fine Human, the podcast where we interview people I think are fine human beings.
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And today we have Holly Howard, my executive coach.
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Um and we're gonna talk about being a leader, AI in the workplace, probably, finding alignment.
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Yeah, but how did we find each other?
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We've been working together for seven years.
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Seven years.
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Wow.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I think we found each other through Alex Daly.
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Yes.
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That's right.
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Yeah.
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No, it was actually through some, it was through Janet's contact.
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I remember Janet found you.
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Okay.
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Janet's my co-founder at Dame.
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And Janet found you, and then I was like, oh my God, I know.
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Oh, interesting.
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I think, and I remember that being like, great, well, that's a win-win.
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Like, you know, like obviously Janet was really comfortable with you because she had found the connection.
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And then I was like, oh, you know, people I know that love working with you.
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So that's great.
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And you were super helpful in a in a really challenging time for my company.
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Um, so I mean, Janet is my co-founder, but she doesn't work at Dame anymore.
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Yeah.
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And that was like a really how often do you work with couples?
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We weren't a real couple, just for text.
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But co-founders are like couples.
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That's what I tell people.
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And I work with, I mean, maybe I couldn't give you a percentage, but maybe it could reach close to 50% of the time.
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I mean, it's a lot.
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It's a lot.
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Yeah.
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You did send us also to a couples counselor.
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I did, yes.
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Which was some of the most profound therapeutic work I've ever done.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, I think couples therapy is, whether it's your co-founder or your significant other, is like the best mirror for you to learn about yourself.
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I thought it was in some ways so much more helpful than actual therapy because in therapy, you know, you're explaining your experience, but getting this other person who's reacting to you, and that it just it this person then gets to see how you respond.
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Yes.
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This person sees the interaction.
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Um, I learned a lot about myself through that.
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One of the things I learned about was that I'm actually a little codependent, which I didn't know.
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I remember this.
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It's so funny, Al, that you're saying this because I'm like, wow, this was another lifetime.
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It was another lifetime ago.
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It was over five, six years ago.
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It was probably pre-pandemic.
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It was pre-pandemic.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Um, but I do think like, oh my god, co-founders are such a I don't know.
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Do you have any advice for co-founders for people who are starting a business with a partner?
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Well, I think just what we were saying is like the realization that your partnership is like a marriage in a lot of ways.
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I think we misunderstand that.
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And so we don't take the time to really think about like the dynamics, what our shared vision is, what our shared values are, what you know our shared leadership philosophies are, and how those dynamics are going to impact each of us.
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Are we growing together?
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I think it's a growth.
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I feel like Jan and I did such a great job of setting some visions together, behaviors, like what were our values, and we spent a lot of time working on them.
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Yeah.
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I do look back now and realized there were tensions in the beginning that we would just sweep under the rug.
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We'd find the right word that worked for both of us.
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Yeah.
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But the part where that slight difference of a word I liked more and she liked the other word better, yeah, was probably the beginning.
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And it took like we had years where it worked and we like enjoyed working together and it was great.
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And then I think that like not having full alignment.
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Yeah.
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When you're like five percent off in your alignment, which doesn't sound like a lot, but it's like both of your everything.
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Yes.
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That's really hard.
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It was really hard.
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Um I would actually say, okay, one, in a lot of ways, it's like a marriage where you don't sleep with the other person.
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Yes.
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And then on the flip side, it's not a marriage.
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Yeah.
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It's a partnership for the purpose of the business.
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Yeah.
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I think I put her over the business.
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I don't know if she would say it say that or see that.
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So I'm just like, in case she's listening.
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Yeah.
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Like what I mean by that is like, I think it wasn't working for too long.
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And it wasn't working, and we should have sooner, faster, been like, this isn't working for the sake of the business.
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Yeah.
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I was trying to make us work.
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Yeah.
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Yes, yes, yes, yes.
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So, but I just didn't know, I didn't know how we would not work together.
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Yeah.
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And I didn't see that path.
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Yeah.
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And she eventually did, and she's really like, bless her heart, in the real way that people mean that.
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Like, she was like, woke up one day and was like, hey, this isn't working.
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I'm done.
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Yeah.
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I'm done.
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Like, we need to figure this out.
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And I was never gonna say that.
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Yeah.
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I was never gonna say that.
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Um and I think there's a few, like seeing the business as separate from the two of you, and you were like, I put her over the business, and without that recognition that like the business has its own needs, like you're you're two people, but it's also its own thing.
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And to remember, like, you all were so young.
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We were so you were so young.
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You know, it's like not only were you tasked with understanding business dynamics and leadership dynamics, but leadership dynamics in an age where we don't tend to take on leadership roles, you know, it it takes a lot of emotional growth, and not that people in their 20s aren't emotionally mature, but like there are a lot of lessons that we have to learn about ourselves, about how we relate to other people.
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So what do you think some of the biggest challenges young founders face when they're leaders, like in that leadership position?
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I think that we have, well, I'll I'll tell you one of my favorite, just to go back to your comment about codependence.
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One of my favorite leadership lessons that I work with with a lot of young leaders, especially in the last decade, is this idea that compassion and codependence often get very muddled together.
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Yes.
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Where a lot of young leaders, rightfully, and like I don't know if rightfully is the right word, but like I'm excited that they want to be so compassionate with their team, right?
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They want to be compassionate, and I think that's a beautiful thing, but they tend to mix up the idea of compassion and codependence, right?
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We can be compassionate, but also have really good boundaries.
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We can be compassionate, but also know what our needs are, the business needs are, and how we hold those things.
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Yeah.
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And I think that's a really hard lesson for people to learn.
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Yeah, I know one of our values at Dame is compassion for the collective.
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And I do think that that helped me be like, okay, I want to be compass like I really, really I want us to care about each other.
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Yeah.
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But it's for the purpose of the full boat, which might mean we somebody, oh, the boat was a bad analogy.
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Now I have to like drown somebody in this analogy.
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But I mean, like, if if you're caring about the full team and there's one person, I can have compassion for that person, but if it's not serving the collective, yeah, then we need to make a change or something needs to happen.
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Maybe it's just a boundary.
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Maybe they just need to go to a section of the boat.
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They don't need to get off the boat quite yet.
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Um and so like that was helpful.
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I remember actually having like one of our first employees had some things happening in their lives where they weren't showing up for work, and they were, it was a really almost good first employee in that I wanted to be a therapist for a long time, and I remember being like, I'm not this person's therapist.
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Yes.
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And they were really not showing up.
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Yeah.
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Which was good because I think if they were showing up a little bit, it would have almost been so much harder to be like Hold the Boundary.
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To hold the boundary.
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Well, and that's another good point, I think.
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Again, like, especially in our desire to evolve the workplace and be more compassionate, leaders have taken on the role of therapists or thought they were.
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And I've even seen HR professionals like there was an article, I think, in the Harvard Business Review, like encouraging leaders to be more like therapists.
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And I'm like, leaders are not qualified therapists unless you went to school and you studied therapy.
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But even so, I have a background in therapy, even so, the workplace usually isn't the right place for that.
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It doesn't mean we don't develop people, but you know, we need to be able to hold the boundary and know like who's the right outlet for the right support for somebody.
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And I wanted to be a therapist and my master's, but like for me too, it's like my job as if I was a therapist, my job is to serve you and to help you grow for your own benefit.
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Like as your boss, my job is to help you grow within this particular system, yeah, this context, this mission, these boundaries.
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Yeah.
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And that's different.
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Yes.
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And I do think, yeah, I think it's unfair to for to also even ask that or expect that from your boss.
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Like, that's not what we're all showing up for.
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Yeah.
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It kind of reminds me of when people are like, oh, we're a family.
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Yeah.
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You know, like you're it's not a family, it's not therapy.
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Like, at the end of the day, oh my God, we had Trinity on here.
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Like, we were like, what's the purpose of business?
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And she had such a good answer where she was like, she said, somebody told her it's like, you know, an organization that serves a purpose, but also it's like cash flow for your family.
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It's like cat, you know, it is like like you're trying to create something that serves people outside of just the work, and like it needs to do that.
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It I think that's a thing that people really misunderstand.
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Because to your point about like the family aspect, again, like that's something that's become more prominent.
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We talk about capitalism all the time.
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Yeah, but the reality is like a healthy business provides incomes for people, it provides benefits for people, it provides opportunities for growth for people.
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And if the business doesn't stay healthy, you lose all of that.
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Yes, you lose all of that, and it has a ripple effect into you know the workers, their communities, their families.
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And so it is vital for the business to stay healthy.
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It can be really, really hard to like let somebody go and feel like you're taking away their income, their health insurance, like I fucking hate that health insurance.
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Like, I shouldn't be responsible for people's health insurance.
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Um but I think the other truth is sometimes if you don't, then more people will eventually have that taken away from them.
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Yes.
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Oh, so you brought up one of my favorite topics.
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Do you know what it is?
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Probably capitalism.
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It's capitalism! Let's talk about capitalism.
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Um what are your feelings on capitalism?
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I'm pro-capitalism.
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You're pro-capitalism?
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How would you define capitalism?
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This is a great question.
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It's a question that I always ask my students to define capitalism first.
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Oh, yeah, yeah.
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Always.
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Yeah.
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So when I think about capitalism, I just think about like privately held for-profit entities, right?
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That's usually that's where I got, that's where I start.
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That's that's a starting line, right?
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Where we tend to get like really confused is like, well, why is executive pay so much higher, you know, than employee pay?
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And you have to understand that like that was not built into the model of capitalism.
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Like what we're experiencing today was not built into the model.
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Or this idea that like shareholders should, you know, be prioritized over, let's say, stakeholders like employees.
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And again, like there's a version of shareholder capitalism, but that was not the original understanding of capitalism.
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I also think in like the original understanding of capitalism, too, like I think Adam Smith defines like certain things that are also like utopian that aren't true.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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Like we all have equal information and equal, and that's also like there's not I I'm also like hmm.
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I don't know.
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And then sometimes I do feel like trying, you know, like there's different I I've become more expansive on it.
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I still really do feel like mostly like private is ideal.
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Like I do feel like a fully central economy.
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I'm just like, mm, that's so scary to me.
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It doesn't have its own checks and balance.
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Like you're really expecting just like could you imagine if we like had a centralized economy and then Trump comes into power, right?
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Like that's scary to me.
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Yeah, not that it can't work, but it's so reliant on a centralized system.
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Um, and I do kind of feel like a lot of the times when people are blaming capitalism, and then I'm like literally hear my friends' voices like yelling at me in my head right now.
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Cause I'm like the only one, right?
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Like that's that's one friend in particular.
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It's like um you'd be like, oh, but like it's all about capital.
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But I think it's really all about like what you value.
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And the problem is is sometimes we're value, like if you valued time more, if we valued these other things more, you know, like I then capitalism isn't necessarily the problem.
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Sometimes it's like these other things.
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I I totally agree.
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I was listening to an episode of On Being with um Michael Pollan recently.
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It's a really good episode.
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But they were talking about this idea of like inner lives, right?
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Your inner life.
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Yeah.
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And about how important to have a rich inner life.
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And if we don't have a rich inner life, that's when we become really extractive, right?
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We're extractive to the environment, we're extractive to the people we work with, we're extractive in all of these ways.
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And I do think, I'm like, look at capitalism right now.
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Like, it is run by wounded men, right?
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Wounded men.
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Mark Zuckerberg starts Facebook because he can't get laid.
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Wounded man, right?
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Like, look at all these companies.
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That's the era of capitalism that we're living in.
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We're like living in the wounded man, like bleak inner life era of capitalism.
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And I think that's what's frustrating.
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And when we don't call that out and we just blame capitalism instead of like, what are we doing about all of these damaged men that are running the economy, that are running politics, we're not gonna solve the problem.
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I do feel like I'm so grateful that I have like this opportunity to kind of create my own reality and create my own culture within Dame.
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And I struggle to imagine how that would have happened in a not capitalist society.
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Um and on the flip side, when I do have these moments of like productivity overload, and I'm not like, it's me.
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I'm not, I'm yeah, I get to choose.
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Yes.
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And I couldn't agree more.
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This idea of like, am I nourishing my inner world?
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Am I nourishing, you know, it becomes very like comparison and all these negative things.
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And by all means, I do feel like capitalism and work and society encourage that.
00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:26.559
Yeah.
00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:29.200
Like I feel like it's sucking me in.
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:40.159
I feel the way I'm often asked to compare my business to the other female-led brands in the space, and it's like asking me to hate on these other women all the time.
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:40.639
Yeah.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:43.519
Like I feel these like negative pulls.
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:44.320
Yep.
00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:49.919
And that makes me dislike it to some extent, but like that's still my choice.
00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:56.399
Like, if I can see the pull, I can like control it and realize that's what's happening and respond to it differently.
00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:01.840
And I don't think it makes me a worse leader or boss or whatever.
00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:03.440
In fact, I think it makes me a better one.
00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:05.440
It makes you a better one, and it's hard.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:07.279
I'm not saying that it's not hard, right?
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:17.519
To like take a different path and to choose differently, but I'm just saying like solving the problem starts with like actually naming the right problem first and then solving it, right?
00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:20.640
When we're not naming the right problem, we can't solve the issue.
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:21.119
Yeah.
00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:29.759
I do think that a lot of times when people are like anti-capitalists or they're talking about like hating on it, they're they don't define it the way what I found that they have a different definition.
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:30.079
Yeah.
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:35.359
They are thinking this is the whole system versus like it's just the part where the businesses are privatized.
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:36.160
Yeah.
00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:40.799
Um, so like that that's why I like to ask, like, let's define it first.
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:43.599
Um because I agree.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:56.400
And then like I do think it's like sexism, all these there's all these other things that play into our society versus it just being like independent businesses that are the problem.
00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:06.400
Um and then, like, yeah, I'm also like, I don't think companies should be doing healthcare, like, or giving right.
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:18.160
So like that is not a really capitalist individual perspective, but I actually have a capitalist version of it that makes me also think that like healthcare should be uh what's the word?
00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:20.960
Universal.
00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:21.519
Yeah.
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:23.200
I mean don't get me wrong.
00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:27.759
I think the healthcare system, especially, is like one of the most damaged systems in America.
00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:32.640
Like, there's just no way we can look at that system and not agree that it's like fully damaged.
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:43.440
And not that, you know, you're about to have a baby, it's a miracle and you'll get health care, but you look at the costs of healthcare, not only for the business, but for the individual as well.
00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:44.720
And it's a broken system.
00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:46.319
So it's so broken.
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:57.039
And it's not that I don't believe in social programs, like I deeply believe in social programs and that sort of like aspect of socialism, but I think those things can coexist.
00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:06.079
And I just think there's so many young employees or people, maybe not all young too, who just have this such a negative perspective.
00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:09.440
Like, you gotta go to work, you're gonna hate this thing all the time.
00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:18.160
Like, why don't we see the benefits of it and like try and make it work versus just like fucking hate it?
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:18.960
Well, yeah.
00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:23.519
I think it's hard in the sense that I feel for young people, you know.
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:31.440
I feel for people, I mean, right now coming into the workforce, but you know, look at everything that they're navigating, look at what you see.
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:35.920
I mean, I'm not on social media, so I don't see it, but I know what people see, you know.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.200
I know how toxic things are.
00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:41.200
I'm not on social media.
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:43.759
You know, I do feel bad.
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:45.200
Like, where are people?
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:57.920
I mean, I know that there are young people creatively thriving, and that's really beautiful, but in general, I think that we've done a huge disservice to younger generations in terms of like providing them with pathways of opportunity and hope.
00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:01.920
You know, I don't think that people really see that as their responsibility when it is.
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:02.799
Yeah.
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:08.880
I do also feel like the kids are always fine at the end.
00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:09.839
You know what I mean?
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:12.480
Like Yeah, I'd say yes and.
00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:19.920
Yes and yes and I think this is also me trying to provide hope for them.
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:25.839
Like I'm so I am so excited about the next generation and what they're gonna do.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:28.559
Um, and it's cool to learn from them.
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:35.680
But man, entering the workforce right now does seem pretty hard.
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:53.519
Yeah, and I think like my yes and comment to that is that I I also think we do a disservice when we're like people are resilient, young people are resilient, but it's like I don't think adults necessarily see their responsibility and like facilitating the dreams of young people.
00:20:53.680 --> 00:21:03.200
I like there's a certain place that you probably get to in life where you've reached a level of your own dreams that your responsibility becomes facilitating and helping.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:08.079
And I feel like we're not necessarily like facilitating enough for young people.
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:19.359
I think for me, and this is where I think capitalism does me dirty a little bit, is that first part is recognizing even that I've maybe kind of accomplished some of my dreams.
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:20.160
Yeah.
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:23.839
But wait, why do you think capitalism did you dirty in that?
00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:24.880
Okay.
00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:29.359
I feel like we'll be more specific, right?
00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:40.559
Because it's not just it's well, I I feel like pitching VCs and going out there all the time and saying I was gonna be a hundred million dollar business in five years.
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:40.960
Yeah.
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:44.319
Dame's not a hundred million dollar business, it has been five years.
00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:50.240
Like, I now I I know that I said that and like in some way promised that.
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:52.160
I didn't really promise it.
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:59.359
Like, I you know, I believed it, and there's a lot of good reasons why that's like not the case, but it makes me sometimes.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:09.440
See the failure of not meeting that goal and those expectations more than the appreciation of all that I have accomplished.
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:15.359
And I have to like do the work to see it.
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:17.119
Like I'm saying it out loud right now.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:25.359
I hear myself, but I can't tell you how internally I feel the failure part.
00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:30.480
Yeah, but I don't think that that's I mean, I can't tell you your experience.
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:40.400
But what I'm saying is like when we think about capitalism, like there's nothing in capitalism that says, Al, you have to prioritize the feelings of the failure instead of like what you did accomplish.
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:46.400
And then second of all, I'll say, just because I don't know, did did we we did talk about Everlane this week, right?
00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:47.920
Did we talked a little bit about it?
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.839
So, like with everything that's happening, like you came up in that era, right?
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:59.599
You came up in the like Glossier, Everlane, Auburn, Casper, all this era, which was a flawed era.
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:00.799
Like it was a flawed era.
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:04.240
It was deeply flawed, and nobody wanted to admit it.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:11.599
And I kind of feel like people were for the past like six years at least, everybody's kind of known.
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:13.200
It's like the writing's been on the wall.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:14.480
It's been on the wall, yeah.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:23.279
And it's just kind of like trying to apply a tech VC model to consumer goods and how you know problematic that was.
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:36.640
And I do kind of also thinking just about how I got kind of like roped up in the system, everything from like feeling sadness for not being able to attract some VC attention in the beginning.
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:44.880
Yeah, I remember a VC that I was really excited about tell me we were only doubling year over year and not tripling, and therefore we weren't good enough.
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:45.359
Yeah.
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:46.319
And I cried.
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:46.640
Yeah.
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:51.920
And now it's like I want to go back and like slap myself and be like, girl, you were doubling year over here.
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:53.119
That's fucking awesome.
00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:58.400
Like how but so like I was getting wrapped up in that.
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:04.720
And then, like, also then you raise money and then you're encouraged to spend the shit.
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:06.079
Nobody cares about the bottom line.
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:06.400
Yeah.
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:15.039
And if I really think too about like capitalism, that's not encouraging of if it's really about encouraging the bottom line.
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:15.359
Yeah.
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:17.359
I my bottom line was not being encouraged.
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:25.039
It was all about the top line to increase shareholder value, which is like not really the simplistic version of it.
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:28.480
And then there's a part of me that wants to call it just like supply-demand.
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:33.119
I feel like people like generally, no one's like, well, I'm not, I'm people aren't against small business.
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:33.519
Yeah.
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:41.839
You know, when they're talking about, oh, I'm like, oh, you're not like I'll read something and I'll be like, yeah, but like, and then I'll apply it to Dame, and they're like, oh no, no, no, no.
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:44.160
But you're you're not who I'm talking about.
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:46.640
I'm talking about Amazon and Google, you know?
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:47.039
Yeah.
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:56.640
And I'm like, yes, but when but we're a corporation, you know, like, so it needs like to apply.
00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:58.079
Yeah.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:24:59.039
Yeah.
00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:04.160
I think it's hard to one, you need time and perspective.
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:07.519
And like I said, you were really young when you came into this, you know.
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:16.960
It's like you're still forming your own personal identity, and then to have to form your identity of like a leader and a leader that's like on this path, it's complicated.
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:26.000
You know, it's fine though, because I feel like my personal identity, I was thinking about this this morning, is like strongest when I was probably really, really young, even before my 20s.
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:26.400
Yeah.
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:28.319
And I'm like, who was I then?
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:32.160
I think that person knew herself better than I almost like I know myself now.
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:32.559
Yeah.
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:35.200
That's why pyramid starts with your childhood.
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:36.960
Because that's why the pyramid starts.
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:38.400
What's pyramid?
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:48.640
Pyramid's my new company, not yet public, but it is based on the methodology that I've used in the last 14 years.
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:52.799
And when I work with people and defining their values, like we that's the first question I ask.
00:25:52.960 --> 00:26:01.599
Like, think back to like, I think I start with ages like birth through six years old, you know, and like you go through these phases and you think about who was I at this time?
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:02.480
What did I learn?
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:03.200
What did I absorb?
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:04.400
Both good and bad, right?
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:06.400
We absorb bad messages too.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:13.599
But it's interesting because usually we can look back and see the seeds of like who we became in those moments.
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:15.519
And we often get lost.
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:16.640
We lose those.
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:21.039
So it's like hard to, but yeah, I think that that makes a lot of sense.
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:21.519
Yeah.
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:28.640
Do you actually like I how did you become uh an executive coach?
00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:31.119
Do you define yourself as an executive coach?
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:32.480
Yeah, I mean, yeah.
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:34.559
Uh that or coach or consultant.
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:35.599
Consultant, yeah.
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:36.160
Yeah.
00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:39.599
I'll I'll give the like long story like very quickly.
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:40.160
Okay.
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:44.480
Just because I think the context is to not include bassoon, I will be upset.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:45.920
I will include bassoon.
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:46.240
Okay.
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:51.279
So out of high school, I was first a professional ballet dancer.
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:59.359
And then after so I went to a draw-free training program, and then I came back to Chicago where I was from and danced with the Ruth Page ballet.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.559
And then when I was like three years in, I was like, I'm not gonna make it.
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:03.519
It was very dramatic.
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:04.240
I quit.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:15.119
And then I went to music school at Berkeley in Boston and studied bassoon and music therapy because I was like, well, that's a good combo of like music and psychology.
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:17.680
And I really wanted to study psychology.
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:20.559
My dad was an alcoholic, I had a really complicated childhood.
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:22.240
I was like very drawn to that.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:34.000
Then I did that, and that's what brought me here to New York to do my internship up at Beth Abraham, um, which I always say was an institute founded by Oliver Sachs, who was a really famous neurologist.
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:37.519
Did that and then decided I was gonna be a doctor.
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:45.039
And then um, but in between being a doctor, I worked at Marlowe and Sons when it was first opening.
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:50.240
This is like 2004, and took kind of a year off and just really partied.
00:27:50.319 --> 00:28:01.279
It was a really fun time in New York, recorded with a producer on my bassoon with some bands, uh, was photographed by a very famous photographer, ended up in a museum, did some really fun things.
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:04.000
And then in 2005, I was like, I'll be a doctor.
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:07.279
So I went to Columbia, and I know that's where we kind of cross over.
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:12.559
Yeah, got my pre-medic Columbia, worked at Lennox Hill as a medical researcher, right?
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:17.920
Published medical research, and then when I was going to become a doctor, I just kind of really freaked out.
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:20.000
I was like, this feels broken.
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:22.559
This was 2008, and I was already like, this is broken.
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:26.720
Like the way that you apply to medical school, it's much like capitalism, right?
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:29.839
I can say like the medical system is broken.
00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:34.480
That doesn't mean medical, you know, care is bad, you know.
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:36.400
Like it is broken though.
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:38.319
And I could just tell in 2008.
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:44.240
So then I started working at Egg Restaurant, which was over here on North Fifth Street originally.
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:50.640
And that's where I got into like managing the business because then the guy that owned it, he was going on leave.
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:52.799
His wife was gonna have a baby, and he was like, Do you want to run it?
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:56.799
And I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing, but sure, I'll learn and do it.
00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:01.440
And then we were able to become profitable and give health insurance and pay time off.
00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:05.119
And we were the only um restaurants in the country to do that.
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:13.119
So I did a congressional briefing with Congresswoman Rosa DeLoro of Connecticut, just talking about best practices.
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:20.640
This is when like paid family leave and the Healthy Families Act was kind of on the rise in 2009 and like the changing of laws.
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:26.000
And that's also where I was realizing like Williamsburg at that time with the Great Recession, right?
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:27.359
Everybody's starting a business.
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:30.319
It was quite cheap to start a business in Williamsburg at that time.
00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:31.920
Like rents were like$1,200.
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:34.000
Can you imagine a storefront for$1200?
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:34.720
Oh my gosh.
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:40.000
When I say too that we gave people health insurance, it cost us$200 per person.
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:40.559
Wow.
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:42.240
A month to get people health insurance.
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:43.519
It costs a lot more than that now.
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:45.200
It costs a lot more than that.
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:45.759
Yeah.
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:53.599
And um, so, anyways, I realized I like systems, I like culture, and so I just started working with a lot of clients in Williamsburg.
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:59.759
Pies and Thighs, the Meat Hook, Salty was a restaurant, and then it really just grew from there.
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:00.880
Wow.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:01.599
Yeah.
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:02.960
I was so interested.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:05.759
Like, I didn't know all of that.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:06.559
Yeah.
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:08.400
That was pretty cool.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:09.039
Yeah.
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:12.480
I I like love.
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:15.119
I don't know.
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:21.279
I I love the what you've taught me that I really love is the importance of like systems and policy.
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:22.160
Yeah.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.720
Um, because I'm definitely like a fly by like everybody's got it.
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:28.720
Like, why do I need to write a Mat Leaf policy?
00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:30.160
Like, I'm just gonna be gone.
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:32.480
And the amount, I'm like, what do you guys mean?
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:33.440
What you guys want?
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:35.519
Not the policy for like my plan specifically.
00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:40.319
I remember being like, I don't under, like, I'm not gonna be here.
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:40.799
Yeah.
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:42.160
That's the plan.
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:42.720
Yeah.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:46.400
Yeah.
00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:55.279
And everybody kept on asking me for a plan, and I didn't even know what it would look like and why, and how important it has been to just like attempt to give clarity.
00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:56.160
Yeah.
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.240
I'm very comfortable in the ambiguity.
00:30:58.400 --> 00:30:58.559
Yeah.
00:30:58.640 --> 00:30:58.799
Yeah.
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:01.680
Which is, I think, is that true for a lot of entrepreneurs?
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:09.839
Um, actually, I would say it's not, which is interesting in the sense that like to be an entrepreneur, you have to take risk, right?
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:12.079
You have to be able to tolerate risk.
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:18.319
What is interesting, especially, is like our economy is changing rapidly and entrepreneurship is totally on the rise.
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:20.799
LinkedIn put out some crazy statistics.
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:28.400
I'll get this wrong, but it's like the general idea where like 60% of people are going to be entrepreneurs in the next few years, like in the workforce.
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:36.799
And so back in the day, let's say, even like in the you know, 90s, entrepreneurs really were risk takers.
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:39.039
Now it's becoming out of necessity.
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:40.319
We become entrepreneurs, right?
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:43.519
Or independent because even independent freelance workers are entrepreneurs.
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:50.720
And now also with AI, I would imagine AI is pushing a lot of people towards entrepreneur and gig gig work and project-based work and all that.
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:51.680
Yes, yes.
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:56.720
So because it's out of necessity, it pushes people who aren't risk tolerant, right?
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:59.759
Who don't love ambiguity into that position.
00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:02.160
So when probably better entrepreneurs.
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:03.039
Yes.
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:07.039
Maybe it's yes and I think there's a yes and, you know, to it.
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.880
But yeah, it's Well, you know what it is?
00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:11.359
It's probably not one type of person that's a good entrepreneur.
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:12.240
Absolutely not.
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:13.279
Like that's the whole thing.
00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:24.240
And I think to tie it back to like where you felt like a failure, that model that you grew up in is interesting because it's so mono, it's like a mono model.
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:26.559
You know what it's like everybody had to fit into the same model.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:28.160
They all had to raise a lot of money.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:31.359
And that was also like the definition of success in the early years.
00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:31.680
Yeah.
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:46.079
And I think if you had sat me down and asked me if I really thought that, I would have said no, because I I my love of capitalism is about creating value for the world.
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:48.079
So that means bottom line value.
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:54.960
Like, not just bot, like it has to be that people want to buy it at a price that works, yeah, that the company works.
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:57.519
Like that is value.
00:32:57.680 --> 00:32:58.160
Yeah.
00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:19.920
Um, so like I I feel like I deep down somatically knew that, but then also somatically love attention, and you don't get it, that was not how you were getting attention, and that was not how you were, you know, growing business because attention does help you grow the business.
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:33.119
Um so yeah, I I do really believe though that like when I tune into my body and I feel my business, yeah, that that is really informative.
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:36.799
And probably when I'm like doing the best.
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:39.519
Well, because there's new, it's interesting that you say that.
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:49.039
There's a lot of new research about how like um, you know, like they're calling like your gut your second brain now, like your gut biome, and there's all this research, and they're like consciousness.
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:50.400
Now they're like consciousness.
00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:52.319
That's why we say we have a gut feeling, right?
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:55.519
Because there's actually like it's like your second brain.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:59.680
And so when you say when I tune into my body, like it is true, right?
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:06.319
Like that's when we start to true turn into tune into what is true for us, why you know, like what is true for me.
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:15.599
And I think what you're describing, like when you say attention, part of it is that it's hard not to betray yourself when you're on a certain path, right?
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:26.320
When you get put into like a certain culture, and part of successful capitalism, I believe, is how do you stay aligned with your values and do it in the way that's right for you?
00:34:26.559 --> 00:34:27.199
Yeah.
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:31.199
I think that that's it's really hard to realize when you've betrayed yourself too.
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:33.760
It's the most painful thing you can ever do.
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:34.960
It's really painful.
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:52.719
And like you just, you know, I think also when you were talking earlier about like young entrepreneurs wanting to be compassionate, like you want to be compassionate, you want to stick to your values, and then you realize okay, oh, you you haven't a hundred percent, and it it sucks.
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:57.840
Yeah, it sucks to let yourself down, and you definitely will let yourself down because I think that's touching your boundaries.
00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:00.159
Like, I don't know if there's another way to grow, too.
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:01.679
Yeah, I don't know.
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:02.960
Wait, what do you mean?
00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:06.880
Like, has somebody just done it perfectly the whole time ever?
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:10.159
Like, yeah, or is there like learning?
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:14.320
Like, I think a lot about like there's these folklore, like in like, did you ever read Women Who Run with Wolves?
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:15.280
Oh, she did.
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:17.360
I'm like, yeah, probably you probably recommended it to me.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:18.880
Um love it.
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:23.599
I'm always like, okay, like we know Bluebird, we know these stories, yeah.
00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:30.239
Of like, you know, you know, woman goes out in the world and like man treats her badly, whatever like she learns.
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:37.440
And to me, I'm like, you could tell me that story a thousand times, and I still just needed somebody to kind of treat me badly in order to really learn it for myself.
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:37.920
Yeah.
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:42.159
Like there's just something about having a lived experience.
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:42.639
Yeah.
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:46.159
And like you think you're doing your values, and sometimes there's tension in your values, right?
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:56.800
Like you're trying to grow your business, you're also trying to be a good person, and there's tension in those values and sussing out the boundary, sussing out codependency versus compassion.
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:57.599
Yeah.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:35:59.760
You find it in yourself.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:00.320
Yeah.
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:05.760
And I think it's so important to remember perfection is never the goal.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:06.719
Never the goal.
00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:10.159
It's impossible to do anything perfectly.
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:21.519
That is also, I think, what's unfortunate about the era that you came up with, because so much of that felt based on like removing friction, this per, you know, it's a perfect grid of Instagram.
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:28.239
It's like these clean things, like it really lacked um depth.
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:30.400
It lacked to me, like grittiness.
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:32.320
It and I don't mean like grit.
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:33.840
I think there's a book called Grit, right?
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:36.639
But it's it's like that's about like, I don't know, being gritty.
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.239
I feel like you mean like New York grit.
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:44.000
Yeah, like I mean like messiness, you know, like that nuance, nuance, you know, all of those things.
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:45.519
Petina, maybe.
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:46.719
Petina.
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:53.199
But the point being, Alice, like nobody's per nobody, I don't follow my values a hundred percent perfectly.
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:58.239
It's impossible, but it's more about like the awareness of like, why would I choose to your point?
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:00.239
Like, maybe why would I choose to be codependent?
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:01.360
Like, can I bring awareness?
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:02.559
Like, oh my god, I'm doing that.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:03.760
Why am I making that choice?
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:05.679
Like, yeah, that's what it's always about.
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:12.719
I think in sex too, like sometimes you try something and you realize you don't like it, and now you know, and that's okay.
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:14.800
It doesn't mean you had a bad experience.
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:18.320
Yeah, it means you had an experience that you learned from that you don't want to have again.
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:26.480
Yeah, and maybe it wasn't enjoyable, maybe it was kind of bad, but like you don't know if you like butt stuff until you try a little bit of butt stuff.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:30.239
So, like, I think that that I just think that that's true too.
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.559
In like, yeah, okay, you tried to be a little bit colder.
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:40.719
I do, I I do feel like sometimes becoming more of a leader has been becoming a little bit colder.
00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:41.360
Yeah.
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:43.280
And that makes me really sad.
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:45.679
Um keep going, and then I'll yeah.
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:46.480
Yeah.
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:51.360
So I'm I'm oh my god, I'm excited to hear what you have to say about it because I'm still trying to suss it out.
00:37:51.599 --> 00:38:10.000
But like there have been moments where I'm like, whoa, that was too that was that I I look back on it now and I almost feel like I really betrayed something in myself and I wasn't compassionate enough, and the like you know, I I don't know.
00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:29.039
Um I mean like I'm thinking about this one time where like you know, we made the right decision for the business, but I had kind of I had said something to this person that I shouldn't maybe just shouldn't have said that made her believe that like her job was really secure in a way that it wasn't.
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:33.440
And then when I let her go, I was like, I just could have handled it better.
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:38.559
A I probably should have never made it sound like your job is deaf you're definitely gonna have a job for six months.
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:39.039
Yeah.
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:41.840
Like that, I just probably shouldn't have said that.
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:42.239
Yeah.
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:50.079
And then since I did say it, how could I have I showed up in that different in that moment with like I I don't know.
00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:50.400
Yeah.
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:52.719
Because I don't know if there was no job there for six months.
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:54.239
Like that wasn't gonna happen either.
00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:55.840
So like Yeah.
00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:03.199
I think with leader to your point about like colder, it's like, well, I think we wanna be careful about sort of the binaries, right?
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:05.280
Like either we're compassionate or we're cold.
00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:09.679
Because both, you know, like then that's not necessarily true either.
00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:15.199
But one thing that you're bringing up is this idea that like we make mistakes, leaders make mistakes all the time.
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:16.320
All the time.
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:23.760
Like, even myself in launching this new company, I've made mistakes about advisors I've brought in, you know, and people that I wanted to work with.
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:30.960
And I've had to say to them, this was my mistake, like I have to end of the relationship, this is my mistake, I didn't think through this enough, you know.
00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:38.000
And like the more I always tell people, especially with leadership, the more you can put it back on yourself and say, like, I made the mistake first.
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:38.400
Yeah.
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:46.159
And it doesn't mean that that person might not react to it and think of you poorly and you know, have judgments against you.
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:49.760
And their experience is true to them.
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:55.760
But part of also growing as a leader is being able to not be rocked by that experience.
00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:56.559
Are you smiling?
00:39:56.639 --> 00:39:58.400
Because you're talking to me specifically right now.
00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:00.239
I know we talk about this a lot.
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:05.599
I really like being liked, and I really want everybody to understand why I'm making the hard decision I'm making.
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:05.920
Yeah.
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:10.000
And I know in my like, I remember my intake form, I was like, leaders make hard decisions.
00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:15.679
That's what I I like aspire to that and like love that in my fantasy novels.
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:16.000
Yeah.
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:21.760
Like love those characters, and like think that that's such a hard thing to do and honorable.
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:25.360
Like I think it's really noble, and like that's what it is.
00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:28.960
And but my part is I want everybody else to see how noble it is.
00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:35.599
I want everybody else to agree either with my decision or at least be like, wow, Al has to make a hard decision here.
00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:36.079
Yes.
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:38.880
And you're not gonna it's just not gonna happen all the time.
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:48.079
Yes, people are gonna be upset, and not letting that totally impact me has been hard and important.
00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:49.199
Yeah.
00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:57.199
Because you have to have such a strong sense of self, and and this goes back to like your inner life when we're looking for that external validation.
00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:58.559
One, it's human, right?
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:02.079
Like that's part of why we live in community, we need community.
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:12.320
But part of being able to develop that inner life is so that you have that understanding, like when somebody's upset with you, that you can sit in their discomfort of you.
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:12.639
Yeah.
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:18.000
Now, if you did that, if they're upset because you did something really disrespectful, that's a different story.
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:26.559
But if they're upset because a dis hard decision had to be made, you know, learning how to sit in that discomfort and not make it about you is definitely a skill.
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:27.199
Yeah.
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:40.639
And I think it's kind of it's like where it becomes really different than like relationships, like or like a um the other thing that I remember learning from you that you that you just brought to mind too was like how giving feedback.
00:41:40.719 --> 00:41:43.679
I always think like, oh, feedback is to help the other person.
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:45.039
It's about them.
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:47.440
I'm giving them feedback.
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:51.840
But you said feedback is actually about the person giving feedback, yeah.
00:41:52.000 --> 00:42:01.360
And that really like blew my mind and and allowed me to speak from my own experience, which is turns out the only experience you can speak from.
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:02.239
Yeah.
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:10.719
So, you know, and being like, oh, okay, I matter in this feedback, and not only do I matter, but I think it makes it easier for the other person.
00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:11.519
Yeah.
00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:13.679
This is my experience of you.
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:14.159
Yeah.
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:16.480
And in this context, that's what fucking matters.
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:17.760
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:20.000
And that's really hard, right?
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:22.719
Like that comes from nonviolent communication.
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:23.119
Yeah.
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:28.159
If we start to separate out, my experience can be valid and your experience can be valid.
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:30.559
And it doesn't mean that they actually have to align.
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:36.239
I think what's really hard though is when you're the boss and they don't align, but I have the power to make a decision.
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:37.119
Yeah.
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:43.039
Like, like sometimes it's like, okay, my experience is that you're not showing up.
00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:44.960
And this is like an interesting thing in the virtual world.
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:50.559
Like, I don't really know, and I don't want to track how you're using your computer.
00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:52.159
I don't want to get big brother-y.
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:53.920
Yeah, definitely not.
00:42:54.079 --> 00:43:00.320
So I have to go off of like, it feels like you're not answering on in a quick way.
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:03.119
I'm not, I'm not getting the responses.
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:12.800
I, you know, and then something I I also feel like, and I and I never know if this is right or wrong, is like, are other people having this experience of you?
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:16.320
And like, can I ask other people?
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:17.679
I don't know.
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:21.119
I don't want to be like, well, everybody else says, because I know that is a terrible.
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:22.719
Don't do that in relationships.
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:24.880
Don't do that in any feedback session ever.
00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:25.199
Yeah.
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:28.239
Like, don't be like everybody else agrees with me that you suck.
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:28.639
Yeah.
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:29.840
That is the worst.
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:32.400
See it in reality shows all the time.
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:33.280
Like, don't do that.
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:34.800
Yeah.
00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:36.400
Yeah.
00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:41.840
Um, one should I do it's good to get 360 feedback in some way.
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:42.960
I try and I do it.
00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:44.880
We do 360 feedback a game.
00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:45.440
Yeah.
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:49.199
Um, but we don't ask specific questions like that.
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:51.280
Well, I think that's the word, right?
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:52.079
Specific.
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:55.280
And the word specific and the observation, right?
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:59.679
So when you say you're not showing up, like, well, what specifically is the observation?
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.079
Did they not respond within the three hours that they're required to respond?
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:07.360
Whatever the policy is, you know, like just making that up.
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:12.800
But and this goes back to when you were saying earlier, like you really learned about the importance of policies.
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:14.559
Like that clarity is important.
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:18.639
We can't judge somebody on the clarity that we haven't provided them.
00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:28.559
Yes, and yes, yes, especially when you're starting off a business, you don't have all the policies written out.
00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:29.280
Yeah.
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:33.840
And sometimes I feel like, oh, I guess that's not a policy.
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:35.440
So now I need to create the policy.
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:37.440
So now I can hold you to the policy.
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:41.440
And there is an element too of sometimes being like, well, what?
00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:42.559
I guess that that's fine.
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:44.320
Like you're making the policy on the fly.
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:46.000
Like there's nothing wrong with that.
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:48.000
Okay, so now you know it's three hours.
00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:52.880
Like if you don't respond in three hours, like I'm gonna write that down in my little notebook.
00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:53.599
Yeah.
00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:58.239
And like is there like an over policy?
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:01.519
Like, I've definitely seen people weaponize policy.
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:02.800
Oh, yeah, for sure.
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:04.880
I think that or weaponized values.
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:07.440
I mean, we really we've seen that all the time.
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:08.159
Yeah.
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:17.039
And there there can be corruption in like literally anything, but I think that's like a good motif of this whole conversation.
00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:17.440
Yeah.
00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:21.119
Which is something can be good, and that doesn't mean like it's not not working.
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:22.639
I want to talk about one more thing.
00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:23.039
Yeah.
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:28.400
I feel like AI has been really interesting right now.
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:32.800
Have you seen how women aren't doing AI and Reese Witherspoon posted that thing?
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:34.719
I know you're not on the internet, so like.
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.880
I am not on the internet, but people do bring these things to my attention.
00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:41.679
So yes, somebody sent me the Reese Witherspoon.
00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:44.960
I think there were like a few of them all in a row or something like that.
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:47.519
Yeah.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:49.440
So yes, I'm aware of that.
00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:52.079
What do you what do you think?
00:45:53.199 --> 00:45:54.800
It's so complicated.
00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:56.719
Okay, you have one minute.
00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:58.239
Oh my gosh.
00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:01.360
I think it's one, I think it's unfortunate.
00:46:01.519 --> 00:46:08.880
I did um, and because there was like a there was something that somebody sent me that was about like the girl boss.
00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:09.599
I don't know if you saw this.
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:11.119
I think it was in New York magazine.
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:12.639
Uh no, maybe it was in the Times.
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:18.880
It was like about the like fall of the girl boss, and it was Reese, Mel, and then Who's the Good American?
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:19.679
I don't know this one.
00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:20.800
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:24.719
Um, Emily Good, maybe, or I don't know, but she's she's she just wrote a book.
00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:25.039
Yeah.
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:27.119
People were upset about some of the things she said.
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:27.519
Yeah.
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:28.480
She's impressive.
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:29.920
Also, both all those are true.
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:33.039
What was interesting again, because I'm not like engaged in this.
00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:37.679
To me, reading this article in the Times, I was like, oh, that's because it was putting them all down.
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.159
And I was like, that's so interesting, right?
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:43.360
That like I guess we are upset with these women.
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:49.039
Like again, it's like it's to me feeling like it's coming back to like there's one way to be a woman leader, right?
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:52.079
And clearly these were bad women leaders.
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:55.440
And I I'm a fan of AI.
00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:57.760
I am starting an AI company.
00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:07.679
It doesn't mean that I'm not aware of the issues with the AI, of you know, the sustainability considerations of AI, of the humanity considerations of AI.
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:16.559
But to me, to not be curious and to not like when I I don't use social media anymore, but I used it for eight years.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:17.840
I was curious about it.
00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:18.719
I learned about it.
00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:20.000
I know how it works.
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:24.400
I get really concerned that we're just like closing the door.
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:31.440
And I also think that part of the backlash about AI actually has more to do with social media than it does with AI.
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:32.960
That's actually my theory.
00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:34.400
That's interesting.
00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:35.280
Yeah.
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:38.000
I I see that.
00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:42.320
Did you see the uh oh my god, it's just too many.
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:46.239
It's like sometimes people talk and I have like 8,000 things now that I want to ask you.
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:47.599
It's like gotta pick one.
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:49.119
Which is like one, Oprah.
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:51.440
I feel like Oprah, does anybody ever tear down Oprah?
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:55.599
Did anybody ever get did we ever was there ever like a moment where the world was like, well, Oprah's a bad person?
00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:56.320
Yeah.
00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:59.360
Um, I forget who it was, but yes, it did happen.
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:01.119
Because I remember texting my friend about it.
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:01.599
But yeah.
00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:02.159
Okay.
00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:06.000
Because I do feel like, you know, she's an interesting billionaire.
00:48:06.079 --> 00:48:07.440
Um, is she a billionaire?
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:13.039
Um, she recently interviewed the co-founders of Claude.
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:14.000
Oh, I haven't really.
00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:15.519
Yeah.
00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:16.880
It's really interesting.
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:20.079
I definitely think it's, you know, it's still fairly fluffy.
00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:20.400
Yeah.
00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:34.639
But they're talking about their values in one of the things that the oh my god, I want to say real co-founder because he's the CEO and he's the brother and she's the sister, and I have, I guess, negative thoughts.
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:36.719
I don't know, misogynistic thoughts.
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:40.400
Um, but he's he's also the tech person, and he's the person I've seen more.
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.440
Um and his name is totally escaping me.
00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:50.000
But he just talks about like for him how important participating is in it.
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:50.719
Yeah.
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:55.039
Um, which I think people can read of like, of course, you think everybody needs to participate.
00:48:55.199 --> 00:49:03.920
But he was like, look, the the choice is either I participate or I don't, and like, do I think I can do it in a more ethical way than the other people that I'm seeing doing it?
00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:06.159
And I believe that I can.
00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:11.280
And I it does feel to me like that's been true of Claude.
00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:12.079
Yes.
00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:47.760
Um, though I don't know what they're doing for the environment or necessarily like there are there's definitely things that are are concerning for sure, but I'm also like, I do want women to use AI, and I definitely feel like women are way more concerned about and rightfully so, like you're saying this, not like there aren't negative things to be concerned about, but I get even more concerned by them not participating in figuring it out and learning, and therefore not getting the jobs or not getting the power, and just like that concerns me.
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:52.000
Yeah, I think it's I mean, I I we live in a concerning time in general.
00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:59.679
I will say, just to go back to this on being episode with Michael Pollen, because Krista Tippett interviewed him and she used Claude because they're talking about consciousness.
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:01.280
So she used Claude.
00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:05.519
It it's one of the most beautiful interviews I've heard in a long time.
00:50:05.840 --> 00:50:07.199
Why did she stop doing on being?
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:09.679
She's doing it private, like she's doing it on her own now.
00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:10.400
Oh, okay.
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:27.360
Um, so I just would encourage, again, because I'm not on social media, I don't know, you know, like that whole thing, but like if people have those feelings and we feel the need to tear down Reese Witherspoon, like maybe give Krista Tippett a listen and see if that changes your mind.
00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:34.800
Maybe it's because Reese Witherspoon was encouraging people to engage, and Krista Tippett is merely being curious and engaging herself.
00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:43.360
I think and letting that curiosity like ripple out into you know other people's experience, you know, what whatever it is.
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:48.000
I do think that there is so much to be curious about in this moment.
00:50:48.159 --> 00:50:50.800
And that's where I get concerned when our curiosity.
00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:55.280
And again, I think like my I did a panel last summer on AI.
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:58.000
We talked a lot about regulation, about sustainability.
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:00.079
So if people are curious, they can watch that.
00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:07.119
Yeah, that's a really I'm I think the other thing too about Reese is I guess she was also an investor.
00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:12.320
Some of these people are also wanting you to buy something in AI or have something on the back end.
00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:14.960
Well, and that's just the badness of social media.
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:16.639
It's like the badness of social media.
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:21.519
Because also, like, yeah, well, of course she would invest in something that she believes in and then push that on social.
00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:22.960
That's not a conspiracy.
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:26.480
Like, that's also her maybe being fully aligned in her values, right?
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:26.960
Yeah.
00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:28.719
So it's like both of those things.
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:29.119
Yeah.
00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:31.840
I understand why it could feel yeah.
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:32.559
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:33.440
You know?
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:39.119
Um, it should be explicit she should, she should have said maybe could have been more upfront about it.
00:51:39.280 --> 00:51:39.679
I don't know.
00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:40.960
I still really like Reese.
00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:44.960
Um, okay, well, that's all we have time for.
00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:45.599
I know.
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:46.400
That sucks.
00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:47.119
I know.
00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:55.840
Do you wanna is there anything you wanna tell everybody the world, like the 10 people that listen to this fucking podcast about?
00:51:56.960 --> 00:51:58.239
Um, I don't think so.
00:51:58.400 --> 00:51:59.679
I mean pyramid.
00:51:59.920 --> 00:52:00.400
Right, yeah.
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.000
They can check out pyramid.org.
00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:04.320
People can work with you at AskCollieHoward.
00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:05.360
At AskCollie Howard.
00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:06.559
Are you taking new people still?
00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:07.280
I am, yes.
00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:07.679
Okay.
00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:10.000
So I'm still consulting while I build pyramid.
00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:13.760
So either, but all of my communications go out through pyramid.org.
00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:18.079
So newsletters, I'm gonna do a lot of Substack Live starting this summer.
00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:21.920
So if people want to engage with that type of are you still doing your podcast?
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:27.599
I'm moving it over to Substack Live because I'm trying to get everything under pyramid and then I'll decide where the podcast is.
00:52:27.679 --> 00:52:30.159
So it is becoming the podcast this summer, essentially.
00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:30.880
Cool.
00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:32.960
Well, thank you so much for joining us.
00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:33.840
Thanks for having me.
00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:34.559
Oh, yeah.
00:52:34.639 --> 00:52:35.599
Thanks for helping me.
00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:38.000
Thanks for helping me too.
00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:39.199
Oh my gosh.
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:40.079
A pleasure.
00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:40.960
A pleasure.
00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:42.320
Okay, yay!