S1 - #2 Codependency and Trauma

0:00:00.000->0:00:11.340
[Music] hello this is Stephanie and this is 
Brian Welcome to our podcast the making and
0:00:11.340->0:00:18.060
the remaking of a codependent mind this is our 
second episode in the series um in the previous
0:00:18.060->0:00:24.840
episode we introduced the idea of codependency and 
how it can form for a person and in particular how
0:00:24.840->0:00:31.020
it Formed for me specifically and it formed around 
a traumatic childhood relationship so if you want
0:00:31.020->0:00:36.600
to hear more about that story go back to episode 
one where we talk about the origin of Brian's
0:00:36.600->0:00:43.320
codependent behaviors but in this episode we're 
going to focus now on the idea of trauma itself
0:00:43.320->0:00:49.920
because this subject is so Central to so many 
people's experience and of how they formed their
0:00:49.920->0:00:55.920
codependent behaviors this is going to be a little 
bit more of a of an informational episode than
0:00:55.920->0:01:02.160
some of the other ones we'd like to walk through 
our understanding of what trauma is how it forms
0:01:02.160->0:01:08.940
and the effects it can have and there's been a lot 
of research and scholarship about trauma in recent
0:01:08.940->0:01:14.640
decades a lot of that research and scholarship 
has extended the understanding or the definition
0:01:14.640->0:01:21.720
of trauma where it used to be centered on PTSD 
post-traumatic stress disorder and it used to
0:01:21.720->0:01:28.380
be thought of almost kind of exclusively being 
caused by singular traumatic events like you'd
0:01:28.380->0:01:34.560
have in combat situations and with the further 
research it became more clear that there's it
0:01:34.560->0:01:40.200
was useful to widen the scope of what one would 
think of as traumatic experiences to be more
0:01:40.200->0:01:46.140
than just a singular incident but what they may 
call chronic or complex trauma which is more of
0:01:46.140->0:01:51.480
a series of events or prolonged dramatic events 
so it could really be either it can be a single
0:01:51.480->0:01:57.840
traumatic experience or it can be a series of 
events that the cumulative affects one of trauma
0:01:57.840->0:02:03.660
in the most classic example of of this would be an 
abusive relationship basically a domestic violence
0:02:03.660->0:02:09.660
or something along those lines where there's one 
one person in the relationship is the abuser and
0:02:09.660->0:02:15.600
the other person is the person that's being abused 
on a repeated basis and often it is the case as it
0:02:15.600->0:02:20.520
was with you that this happens in childhood it's 
particularly difficult to to manage and to heal
0:02:20.520->0:02:25.560
from when that traumatic relationship happens 
at the same time that you are forming your own
0:02:25.560->0:02:31.800
sense of identity and autonomy yes forming your 
own sense of identity autonomy and forming your
0:02:31.800->0:02:38.280
emotional connections and and how you interpret 
your emotions pretty much the building blocks of
0:02:38.280->0:02:43.500
your personality let's talk about what we want 
to take as a working definition of trauma it's
0:02:43.500->0:02:48.180
a word that's kind of thrown around quite a bit 
like the word tragedy just to indicate anything
0:02:48.180->0:02:54.540
that feels really bad right and in a lot of cases 
in a lot of cases people just think of extremely
0:02:54.540->0:02:59.940
stressful events as traumatic or something there's 
there's a difference between stress and Trauma
0:02:59.940->0:03:05.940
and a lot of people seem to interpret extremely 
stressful events as traumatic regardless of the
0:03:05.940->0:03:10.680
type of effect that it has on the person this is 
where it becomes important to make the distinction
0:03:10.680->0:03:18.900
between stress and Trauma I think that's a good 
point we're really seeing the two sides to trauma
0:03:18.900->0:03:24.480
the one is the event itself it is to beer when 
it's physical it's life-threatening but the
0:03:24.480->0:03:29.400
other side of it is the effect it has on your 
body and your mental and physical and emotional
0:03:29.400->0:03:35.280
systems so that you can ex have a severe even 
life-threatening event and not be traumatized by
0:03:35.280->0:03:40.500
it yeah and this is where people will get hung up 
in interpretations of other people's experiences
0:03:40.500->0:03:46.860
where say a person will experience an extreme 
stressful event themselves and say well I wasn't
0:03:46.860->0:03:52.380
traumatized by this so why should anyone else 
and and then now you just have these comparisons
0:03:52.380->0:03:58.920
these games of comparisons going on and it can get 
really controversial the subject of of trauma and
0:03:58.920->0:04:05.400
the word triggers specifically too people overuse 
that word or they under use it or they or people
0:04:05.400->0:04:12.300
wind up abusing people for using the word so let's 
take a working definition of trauma to incorporate
0:04:12.300->0:04:17.760
both of those sides where it's it's a severe 
life-threatening event and it can be still be
0:04:17.760->0:04:21.960
emotionally life-threatening it didn't happen it 
doesn't have to be physically life-threatening the
0:04:21.960->0:04:27.780
idea being your personhood your bodily autonomy 
is violated and threatened and the traumatizing
0:04:27.780->0:04:33.960
part of it is that you are helpless against that 
physical emotional or psychological threat so the
0:04:33.960->0:04:39.600
helplessness can cause long-term traumatic effects 
there has to be some kind of an interruption
0:04:39.600->0:04:45.840
to your regular emotional processing when this 
happens it it'll often have kind of a fragmenting
0:04:45.840->0:04:51.780
effect where something gets embedded in your 
subconscious to where the response that you have
0:04:51.780->0:04:57.180
when this traumatic event happens kind of becomes 
your response to anything that feels similar from
0:04:57.180->0:05:04.140
there forward let's talk about your experience 
then you mentioned chronic or complex trauma where
0:05:04.140->0:05:12.600
it wasn't this singular event intrusion violation 
this is a repeated pattern of violation that
0:05:12.600->0:05:19.800
caused this overwhelming sense of helplessness in 
you yeah I mean I should clarify here there were
0:05:19.800->0:05:27.660
individual incidents that I think would qualify as 
life-threatening individual instances of traumatic
0:05:27.660->0:05:33.540
experiences thrown in there and I think that kind 
of reinforced the overall feeling of of lack of
0:05:33.540->0:05:42.240
control and fear but overall for for me it was a 
ongoing experience of daily fear and daily abuse
0:05:42.240->0:05:48.900
on a smaller scale most of the time to where it 
was kind of just this the friend that we talked
0:05:48.900->0:05:57.240
about in the previous episode had this this way 
of coercion to gain control both verbally and
0:05:57.240->0:06:04.260
physically and so it led to this ongoing traumatic 
experience that was on a daily basis that would be
0:06:04.260->0:06:08.940
there anytime I came in contact with this 
person which was regularly for five years
0:06:10.440->0:06:16.260
that was going on outside the house in this 
friend relationship why don't you talk about
0:06:16.260->0:06:22.560
what's happening in your house well with the 
family Dynamics that affected the way that
0:06:22.560->0:06:29.100
you processed this traumatic experience sure yeah 
I'll go into a little detail on that now it's uh
0:06:29.820->0:06:34.500
as I mentioned briefly in the previous 
episode where I was talking about
0:06:35.220->0:06:39.960
this friendship being the source of the trauma 
I said there were some other interrelated things
0:06:39.960->0:06:49.140
the other interrelated things being my family 
dynamic my dad had really short patients and his
0:06:49.140->0:06:58.260
way of dealing with that was anger and this short 
patience would come out all the time with either
0:06:58.260->0:07:03.840
us my brother and I because we were children 
and we didn't know how to do things yet and
0:07:03.840->0:07:09.060
we weren't doing things the way he expected us to 
do it or wanted us to do it and also he was just
0:07:09.060->0:07:14.640
short patience with everything else too just 
tasks and the world around him he just had a
0:07:14.640->0:07:20.040
hard time dealing with his emotions he didn't know 
how to how to express them and where to put them
0:07:20.580->0:07:25.020
so he would get him impatient or frustrated 
or disappointed and it would go right to
0:07:25.020->0:07:31.680
anger he would go right to anger and the anger was 
usually pretty explosive and kind of frightening
0:07:33.000->0:07:41.760
um he didn't get physical with us but it was felt 
to me similar to what I was experiencing with my
0:07:41.760->0:07:48.900
friend apart from the physical violence aspect 
of it so I'd be experiencing this verbal violence
0:07:48.900->0:07:55.020
from my friend at school and I come home and I'd 
have verbal violence from my dad pretty much and
0:07:55.020->0:08:01.620
I was learning to cope with how to interact with 
my dad the same way I was learning to cope to how
0:08:01.620->0:08:06.960
to interact with a friend at school which was 
the codependent way I need to figure out ways
0:08:06.960->0:08:13.560
to defuse my dad's anger or avoid it or you know 
what do I need to do to make sure he doesn't get
0:08:13.560->0:08:17.820
angry which means what do I need to do make 
sure that he's not frustrated or that he's
0:08:17.820->0:08:25.020
not uncomfortable or that he's not disappointed 
yeah I needed to learn what set him off so that I
0:08:25.020->0:08:31.680
could try to preemptively avoid his anger so like 
you were learning with your abusive friend that it
0:08:31.680->0:08:37.740
was your responsibility to manage his emotions 
you'd come home and you get that lesson again
0:08:37.740->0:08:43.380
from your dad that if he was frustrated he was 
going to dump that frustration on you and it was
0:08:43.380->0:08:49.740
your responsibility to make the situation better 
just to clarify it didn't feel the same at home
0:08:49.740->0:08:55.080
as it did when I was hanging out with G my abusive 
friend when I was with G I was afraid all the time
0:08:55.680->0:09:02.100
when I was at home I felt loved and cared for most 
of the time my dad was a fun fun-loving caring guy
0:09:03.780->0:09:07.860
the reason I'm bringing up is angry issues is 
because of the way it made my experiences with
0:09:07.860->0:09:14.700
gee that much more difficult to deal with and heal 
from the trauma you were experiencing on almost a
0:09:14.700->0:09:20.460
daily basis with G was getting reinforced 
at home rather than repaired yes exactly
0:09:21.240->0:09:27.000
let's talk a little bit about the lasting 
effects that living with trauma can have on you
0:09:28.020->0:09:34.560
well the way we've seen it described and the way 
I feel like it worked for me was that it sort of
0:09:34.560->0:09:43.380
leaves an imprint on your physical and emotional 
reactions to surroundings for me unfortunately
0:09:43.380->0:09:49.680
almost every interpersonal interaction with people 
was a Potential Threat once I've experienced this
0:09:49.680->0:09:54.900
relationship with with the with that friend and 
what would happen is my body would react in a
0:09:54.900->0:10:00.960
way as if I was under threat heartbeat would 
speed up I would feel anxious what they call
0:10:00.960->0:10:07.140
the fight flight freezer Fawn mode I go into the 
more Primal reactionary mode that people get when
0:10:07.140->0:10:12.000
they're under threat but it didn't have to be a 
threatening situation for that feeling to come
0:10:12.000->0:10:17.400
on it just had to be something that somehow 
reminded me of this loss of control which is
0:10:17.400->0:10:22.440
what I experienced during the actual trauma and 
that's when the codependent behaviors would come
0:10:22.440->0:10:27.960
out because those are the behaviors you learn to 
cope and to survive the traumatic situations that
0:10:27.960->0:10:32.700
you were continually put in in this abusive 
relationship when people talk about the fight
0:10:32.700->0:10:39.240
flight freezer Fawn modes Fawn is kind of one 
of the more recent ones that were added to the
0:10:39.240->0:10:43.860
list if you go back far enough it was almost 
just like fight or flight basically I'm just
0:10:43.860->0:10:52.020
gonna stand here and fight or I'm gonna run away 
and these are evolutionary adapted responses to
0:10:52.020->0:10:57.060
to external threats both of them perfectly valid 
you know if you run across a tiger in the woods
0:10:58.080->0:11:05.760
or bear you have a choice you fight or you can 
flight yeah our emotions are very old our emotions
0:11:05.760->0:11:10.860
are not thought processes they're instincts and 
they're there for a reason lots of evolution go
0:11:10.860->0:11:16.680
into our emotions and we also sorry we see freeze 
as well right right well yeah so the other ones
0:11:16.680->0:11:22.200
being freeze would be more of the I have no other 
options I can't run away and I can't fight so now
0:11:22.200->0:11:31.440
I'm just gonna roll over and play dead and we see 
this in animals we're mammals right we see all of
0:11:31.440->0:11:38.760
those responses in other animals to perceive 
threats fight flight freeze and so this newer
0:11:38.760->0:11:44.280
one Fawn is really more of a human one this is 
more of it it's kind of more of an interpersonal
0:11:44.280->0:11:48.660
I'm not gonna fight I'm not gonna run away 
I'm not going to freeze I'm gonna try to get
0:11:48.660->0:11:54.960
out of this situation by placating pacifying 
the person that's abusing me or attacking me
0:11:54.960->0:12:00.180
although I guess we could see dogs when they 
roll over sure yeah yeah it's kind of and show
0:12:00.180->0:12:06.660
their bellies is fawning yeah I I'm sure it does 
happen in plenty of animals too I think for me in
0:12:06.660->0:12:13.140
particular I rarely used fight because it was 
just too dangerous I felt it was too dangerous
0:12:13.140->0:12:18.720
to fight back I felt physically threatened and 
even when I was not physically threatened it I
0:12:18.720->0:12:24.180
felt physically threatened because that's where 
my imprint started when I was actually physically
0:12:24.180->0:12:31.380
threatened so the Fawn for me is coming up with 
these behaviors the big one that we started to
0:12:31.380->0:12:36.600
talk about in the last episode which is the the 
focus of this series codependency so everything
0:12:36.600->0:12:40.560
that goes into that like some of the things 
we were talking about people pleasing and then
0:12:40.560->0:12:46.020
the loss of agency and identity to where person 
basically lets go of any boundaries they may have
0:12:46.020->0:12:51.180
because they no longer have a sense of control 
over themselves the other person has control
0:12:52.020->0:12:56.580
and so now when the other person has control what 
do you do to try to get out of these stressful
0:12:56.580->0:13:03.180
situations what I would do to get out of these 
situations once I felt threatened was to employ
0:13:03.180->0:13:07.740
these codependent behaviors which would be things 
like reflexive dishonesty telling the person
0:13:07.740->0:13:13.260
what they want to hear trying to complement the 
person make them feel safe any type of response
0:13:13.260->0:13:19.380
that would that I would feel would help defuse 
the situation and make it go away essentially
0:13:19.920->0:13:25.020
if we look back at the cluster of behaviors 
that we talked about in episode one that we
0:13:25.020->0:13:31.080
were putting Under the Umbrella of codependency 
feeling responsible for emotions and actions of
0:13:31.080->0:13:35.700
others which is kind of a fawn caretaking 
which is fawning struggle step boundaries
0:13:35.700->0:13:42.000
which you just talked about people pleasing 
trouble expressing emotions denying problems
0:13:43.320->0:13:50.280
there's also a compartmentalization yeah these 
are all somewhat of a flight freeze or Fawn so
0:13:50.280->0:13:55.680
what we're saying really is that codependency 
itself is the trauma response you're using
0:13:55.680->0:14:00.120
these behaviors that evolved to respond 
to threats but like we said in the first
0:14:00.120->0:14:05.040
episode now they have become maladaptive the 
threat has gone away but the behaviors remain
0:14:05.760->0:14:11.040
in any interpersonal relationship that 
you come across you were primed to feel
0:14:11.040->0:14:16.260
Potential Threat and to employ that set 
of behaviors and the unfortunate thing
0:14:16.860->0:14:22.920
is that set of behaviors being maladaptive don't 
actually work in most situations they certainly
0:14:22.920->0:14:28.680
don't work in healthy interactions with other 
healthy individuals but they also don't work in
0:14:28.680->0:14:34.020
the threatening situations anymore I mean I guess 
you could say it works in the same way it worked
0:14:34.020->0:14:39.360
when I was originally threatened as a child but 
but you were a child so these were things when
0:14:39.360->0:14:45.960
you were five to nine when you had very little 
power you had very little autonomy right but you
0:14:45.960->0:14:52.680
carried those behaviors into your 20s and 30s and 
40s when you did have power and autonomy but you
0:14:52.680->0:14:58.620
could not exercise it so now when I encounter 
someone that is verbally or physically abusive
0:14:58.620->0:15:03.420
I employ the same tactics because that's what I 
that's what I taught myself to do to survive the
0:15:03.420->0:15:10.080
situation as a five or six year old instead 
of recognizing what is actually going on who
0:15:10.080->0:15:15.540
this person is what they're doing and responding 
accordingly like a person that doesn't use these
0:15:15.540->0:15:20.700
behaviors would which would be to walk away 
we should mention shame at this point we have
0:15:20.700->0:15:24.780
a we're going to have a whole episode on shame 
because it's so Central to this experience but
0:15:24.780->0:15:30.780
there are a lot of effects that come out of the 
trauma and we're going to cover a lot of these in
0:15:30.780->0:15:37.740
individual episodes because there's just so much 
detail to to go into and we'd like to give some
0:15:37.740->0:15:45.120
specific examples of how it played out in my in 
my life in particular but these effects range
0:15:45.120->0:15:49.500
the whole the whole gamut of youthful life 
experience the emotional and mental physical
0:15:51.120->0:15:55.500
emotional dysregulation interpersonal 
relationships are all affected
0:15:56.700->0:16:03.120
by the effects of this embedded trauma I think a 
lot of it goes back to this idea of helplessness
0:16:03.120->0:16:08.220
when you experience a violation of your autonomy 
your bodily autonomy your emotional autonomy
0:16:09.540->0:16:16.140
and you're made to feel helpless and you were 
made to feel helpless consistently over five years
0:16:18.060->0:16:25.440
this was violently enforced that you were 
powerless in this relationship with that
0:16:25.440->0:16:32.040
helplessness also comes shame this idea that 
you let it happen to you is a lot of people
0:16:32.040->0:16:39.540
wind up blaming blaming themselves for further 
trauma right so once you feel both helpless and
0:16:39.540->0:16:45.720
ashamed there's really no one you can trust you 
can't trust the outer because it has intruded
0:16:45.720->0:16:51.420
upon you so violently and you can't trust 
yourself because you were unable to protect
0:16:51.420->0:16:58.260
yourself in that situation and so you were hiding 
both in the world and you're hiding from yourself
0:16:59.640->0:17:04.440
and once you start hiding from yourself 
becomes almost impossible to heal
0:17:05.220->0:17:09.780
because you don't trust anything your body 
is telling you your body's giving you signals
0:17:10.680->0:17:16.680
and you don't know how to interpret them and what 
or what they mean and then in order to survive
0:17:16.680->0:17:22.140
this because the shame that comes out of something 
like that and and all the other confused emotions
0:17:22.140->0:17:29.880
a person needs to figure out a way to survive that 
still so this is where these these other behaviors
0:17:29.880->0:17:36.840
come in these maladaptive behaviors and in my 
case uh there was a couple angles for the shame
0:17:36.840->0:17:42.060
I was feeling the shame myself for experiencing 
this and and like you were saying I was feeling
0:17:43.320->0:17:49.440
the shame from the loss of control and I was but 
I was also feeling shame from watching this person
0:17:49.440->0:17:55.500
abuse other people and feeling helpless with that 
too and then feeling shame for a loss of empathy
0:17:55.500->0:17:59.580
not that I knew what empathy was obviously at 
that age I really didn't know what emotions
0:17:59.580->0:18:05.460
were but it's an emotion that developed like all 
the rest of them empathy and having to ignore it
0:18:05.460->0:18:10.260
because you're watching something dramatic happen 
to somebody else is just as bad as it happening
0:18:10.260->0:18:17.880
to you I think I mean in my experience it was so 
something related to the subject of trauma here is
0:18:17.880->0:18:24.060
what's called a trauma response and this is where 
the word trigger comes from and it's like we were
0:18:24.060->0:18:31.620
said it's kind of a controversial word but trigger 
is basically just the name for what happens when
0:18:31.620->0:18:35.820
you're reminded of the trauma your body is 
reminded of the trauma so something happens
0:18:35.820->0:18:40.500
in the external world even inside your own head 
it doesn't have to be the episode it's some kind
0:18:40.500->0:18:46.680
of reminder brings up this physical response I 
think the physical response is important the word
0:18:46.680->0:18:54.360
triggers get used a lot yeah which is fine we've 
all had bad things happen to us and no one likes
0:18:54.360->0:19:01.020
necessarily to be reminded of those things we all 
find ourselves in situations reading things seeing
0:19:01.020->0:19:05.760
things hearing things that remind us of really 
negative things that have happened in our life
0:19:06.480->0:19:12.840
and that's fine to call those triggers but when 
we're talking about trauma being triggered we're
0:19:12.840->0:19:18.180
talking about something in a kind of a deeper 
level a more physiological level as you're saying
0:19:18.180->0:19:25.380
where the person who's experiencing the triggered 
trauma response doesn't even it's not they're
0:19:25.380->0:19:32.040
being reminded of a past event they're being 
thrown back into that traumatic event probably
0:19:32.040->0:19:37.920
without even realizing what's happening it feels 
as if you're actually there regardless of what
0:19:37.920->0:19:42.660
is actually going on so what we're talking about 
here is I can be in a completely safe environment
0:19:42.660->0:19:48.780
but then something happens that reminds my 
system of your emotion trauma your emotional
0:19:48.780->0:19:55.680
system my whole system yeah my physical body my 
my emotional processing but not necessarily your
0:19:55.680->0:20:02.220
conscious system exactly right and and so so it's 
not a matter of oh I remember when that happened
0:20:02.220->0:20:06.780
that was really unfortunate that makes me sad to 
think about that which can be very bad you know
0:20:06.780->0:20:11.220
there there can be things that happen that you 
never get over but it's not necessarily A trauma
0:20:11.220->0:20:16.860
response it's not triggering this bodily reaction 
where suddenly I'm anxious and my heart speeds up
0:20:16.860->0:20:22.200
and and it's I'm in fight or flight and you don't 
know why I mean that's really key it's again stop
0:20:22.200->0:20:27.720
reminding you of say when your grandmother died 
because you don't know what it's reminding you of
0:20:27.720->0:20:34.080
yeah you're it's just an automatic trigger of 
these bodily physiological emotional response
0:20:34.860->0:20:41.640
to a threat which no longer occur and exists yeah 
so in my case I had a couple of very big ones that
0:20:41.640->0:20:46.560
came out of this experience that that I think 
were kind of my umbrella trauma responses one
0:20:46.560->0:20:52.620
would be feeling of inadequacy so this person 
that had control over me I felt diminished to
0:20:52.620->0:20:58.680
where none of my experiences mattered they were 
all discounted they were often attacked so it
0:20:58.680->0:21:05.160
was unsafe for me to express myself had this 
byproduct feeling of inadequacy and anytime
0:21:05.160->0:21:10.800
I would feel this feeling of inadequacy would 
trigger that experience and this could happen
0:21:10.800->0:21:16.440
all the time it did unfortunately happen all 
the time and I just had no idea that this was
0:21:16.440->0:21:21.660
happening in a healthy conversation with somebody 
they could be talking about something that either
0:21:21.660->0:21:28.140
directly makes me feel inadequate maybe not even 
to that person's fault at all or indirectly where
0:21:28.140->0:21:32.280
they're saying something that is now reminding me 
of something else that makes me feel inadequate
0:21:32.280->0:21:37.980
it's very sneaky and very difficult to deal 
with I've only fairly recently even recognized
0:21:37.980->0:21:42.720
that this was a thing for me and the other 
one for the other big one for me I mean no
0:21:42.720->0:21:46.860
one likes to feel inadequate but what you're 
saying is that just even that feeling of
0:21:48.000->0:21:54.120
throw you into the future yes exactly yeah 
helplessness and fear and loss of control
0:21:55.200->0:22:02.040
so it's not necessarily that it's I'm feeling 
adequate poor me um it's it's I'm just physically
0:22:02.040->0:22:08.100
feeling the effects of that relationship because 
that was tied to it and the other big one for me
0:22:08.100->0:22:14.700
is experiencing some kind of series of negative 
emotions from another human being like anger or
0:22:14.700->0:22:21.840
disappointment or you know some kind of yelling 
or just elevated escalated emotional reactions
0:22:22.860->0:22:27.960
um because that was also unsafe that was a 
signal to me that I was about to be emotionally
0:22:27.960->0:22:33.660
and possibly physically abused so hearing 
somebody get angry and express that anger is
0:22:33.660->0:22:39.600
is an extreme trigger which is really unfortunate 
because people need to be able to express their
0:22:39.600->0:22:45.660
anger and their frustrations and their their 
disappointment and so getting triggered with
0:22:45.660->0:22:50.340
healthy people that are trying to express their 
emotions in a healthy way is not a good thing and
0:22:50.340->0:22:55.140
it's not a good way to have connected intimate 
relationship with a person that's what makes
0:22:55.140->0:23:01.020
interpersonal trauma so difficult because we need 
personal relationships and intimate relationships
0:23:01.020->0:23:05.580
and people who experience childhood trauma 
especially need those relationships to heal
0:23:05.580->0:23:11.100
but the interpersonal trauma interrupts your 
ability to form those relationships because
0:23:11.100->0:23:17.100
as you're saying you can't read the signals 
that other people are giving you and you don't
0:23:17.100->0:23:21.720
understand your own response to those signals 
the especially difficult thing about it being
0:23:21.720->0:23:27.480
that it's starting in childhood is there aren't 
healthy relationships to pull from even though
0:23:27.480->0:23:32.760
like I said I've found my family to be relatively 
safe the fact that I had this relationship going
0:23:32.760->0:23:38.160
during this formative period That's What I 
pulled from so I didn't I it's it's not like
0:23:38.160->0:23:43.380
I had maybe 10-year great relationship followed 
by an abusive one and then I was able to remember
0:23:43.380->0:23:48.180
the great one and remember what was great about 
it I didn't have that to pull from when I was
0:23:48.180->0:23:52.380
forming my emotional and intimate connections 
with with other people what we said last time
0:23:52.380->0:24:00.000
is is being crucial to our understanding of the 
cluster of behaviors that form up codependency is
0:24:01.620->0:24:07.800
taking responsibility for regular regulating other 
people's emotions so that ties into what you're
0:24:07.800->0:24:14.700
saying about this trauma response other people 
are expressing negative emotions that triggers
0:24:14.700->0:24:21.960
a physiological and emotional response in you 
because you were made to feel responsible for the
0:24:21.960->0:24:28.440
abusers emotions so if someone else is angry then 
you have to deal with it and if you don't know how
0:24:28.440->0:24:34.140
to deal with it then you're in trouble if someone 
else is disappointed if someone else is sad really
0:24:34.140->0:24:38.580
if someone else is experiencing any kind of 
emotion that can be construed as potentially
0:24:38.580->0:24:44.040
negative you have this overwhelming response that 
that is a threat to you and you need to somehow
0:24:44.700->0:24:51.180
manage their emotions it's either I have to manage 
their emotions or I have to figure out a way to
0:24:51.180->0:24:56.700
get out of the situation as quickly as possible 
whatever that means whatever that takes whether
0:24:56.700->0:25:05.160
it's fun or freeze or yeah because it's it's an 
unpleasant scary situation and so with this person
0:25:05.160->0:25:11.040
this childhood friend that was the response that 
the response was appease this person as quickly
0:25:11.040->0:25:16.500
as possible so I don't get hit but then later 
of course appease this person as quickly as
0:25:16.500->0:25:22.500
possible means I'm holding on to an abusive 
person or I'm lying to a non-abusive person
0:25:23.820->0:25:27.120
and there was never any space for 
your own emotional reaction right
0:25:28.080->0:25:32.460
so if I get angry at someone there's an 
understanding you might get angry back
0:25:33.120->0:25:41.160
yes I could get disappointed in someone and they 
made feel that that's not right I but you never
0:25:41.160->0:25:46.740
felt you that you could have your own emotional 
reaction to the situation the person that you were
0:25:46.740->0:25:51.600
connected to in that moment their emotional 
reaction was the importance there's the one
0:25:51.600->0:25:56.220
they're the ones that needs to be responded to you 
were not allowed to have your own corresponding
0:25:56.220->0:26:00.660
emotions so another thing about this is since 
this happened in childhood I didn't develop
0:26:00.660->0:26:08.040
a healthy emotional architecture so I couldn't 
really distinguish bad emotions from from each
0:26:08.040->0:26:13.620
other or good emotions it was it was basically 
this I'm perceiving this emotion as a bad emotion
0:26:13.620->0:26:18.900
I'm impressed even this is a good emotion it 
it's not like anger is a is a healthy response
0:26:18.900->0:26:24.600
that should be responded to accordingly you know 
it may be justified it may be unjustified but you
0:26:24.600->0:26:31.740
need to be able to weigh that look at it respond 
to it not react to it so I was just reacting this
0:26:31.740->0:26:37.800
seems like a bad scary emotion I need to react 
to this in my codependent ways to appease this
0:26:37.800->0:26:43.620
person and make them not be upset or if it's 
a good emotion I need to capitalize on that I
0:26:43.620->0:26:49.620
need to double down I need to make them feel even 
safer and and reward them for this good emotion
0:26:51.180->0:26:57.780
all these interpersonal behaviors that 
form the phenomena of codependency that
0:26:57.780->0:27:03.660
you developed or emerged from the need to 
protect yourself from an abusive person
0:27:04.800->0:27:09.900
unfortunately somewhat ironically for you 
ended up leading you back again and again
0:27:09.900->0:27:17.040
into relationships with other abusive people 
and I wouldn't necessarily say that I was led
0:27:17.040->0:27:23.460
into those into those relationships with abusive 
people it was more like if I somehow came into
0:27:23.460->0:27:29.700
their orbit and they were interested in me in some 
way I would very quickly get pulled in and stuck
0:27:30.360->0:27:37.080
because of my behaviors we're going to talk 
about that Dynamic that getting stuck in the
0:27:37.080->0:27:42.180
next episode on trauma bonding so we're going 
to explore through the lens of your experiences
0:27:42.180->0:27:50.040
how your trauma was triggered and exploited by 
intimate Partners to bind them to you and we
0:27:50.040->0:27:54.840
hope that you'll join us for that discussion if 
you have any comments or questions you can find
0:27:54.840->0:28:05.760
us on Facebook or Instagram by searching 
codependent mind [Music] thank you foreign
0:28:05.760->0:28:06.260
[Music]