99 Dev Problems with Amy Dutton

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Oh, man.
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We do need more.
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Hello, everyone.
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I was just telling Amy before I hit the go live button that she is my first female
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guest and I actually feel bad as like a woman Devon like I need to get the women
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goodness in here.
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But I've found that like my circle is very male dominated.
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I mean, I'm sure yours probably is as well.
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But long story short, we are here this morning.
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99 Dev problems.
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Very excited to chat with Amy and have my first female guest on, which is long
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overdue and here with all of her awesome work.
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So Amy, I would love for you to introduce yourself to the guest.
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Yeah.
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So my name is Amy Dutton.
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I've been doing web design development for 24 years, which is crazy.
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No, I started super young, but my background is design and moved into the
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development space, worked at an agency really young, studied something slightly
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different in college just because I figured I already know what I'm doing.
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And decided to stick with web design and development after I graduated.
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So I kind of be bopped around.
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I worked over on music rows.
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I'm in Nashville.
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So it's fun to name dropping conversations.
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I've run my own agency for seven years and now I'm working on open source.
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So I'm the lead maintainer on the Redwood JS core team.
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Oh my gosh.
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So I have so many comments, but the comment that just will not leave my mind
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is like, there is no way you look so young.
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Like there's 24 years is crazy.
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And I know in pre-show we talked about how you started really early,
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which I'd love to dive into, but like, wow, like you, um, I would not have guessed
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that at all.
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Oh, well, thank you.
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Yes, I started when I'm 16.
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I'm 40 now.
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So that's how we got to 24.
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That is so great.
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I turned 40 this year and I'm trying to be like, it's not happening.
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It's not a thing.
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Like it's just, it doesn't matter.
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It's not going to take place.
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Well, we're about the same.
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So I'm September, September, I turned 40.
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Ooh, nice.
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I'm in March.
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So very, very close.
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Look at that.
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Look at that.
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Yep.
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So, um, but yeah, it's been, it's been fun to feel like in some ways I've grown
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up with the industry.
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Yeah.
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Because like when I started, it was just like regular HTML and CSS, like CSS
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two came out when I was in college.
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And I remember being like, Oh, this is crazy.
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You can do all these fancy things and look at it where it is now.
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It looks like a completely different.
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Oh my gosh.
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Look at it where it is now.
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I remember like, you know, having to use various things.
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And to use various like workarounds to do what flex and grid can just so
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beautifully do today.
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And I was like, where were you when I was in early death?
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And I couldn't figure out the basic fundamentals of how to center a div.
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Why was that so hard?
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I know.
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Well, and just the nostalgia of it, we used to, you know, say we'd slice
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and dice a website because that's literally what we would do.
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We would bring that image into fireworks, which RIP and create a bunch of tables
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out of the images.
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Yes.
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Do you want to know something funny about that?
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One of my first jobs.
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So I taught myself how to code like back in like, I mean, I did in high
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school and whatever, not as cool as you where you like actually had a job.
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Very cool.
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I taught myself how to like more in-depth code.
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I would say like 2006, 2007.
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And there was like nothing for resources.
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I mean, like nothing.
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It was so difficult.
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And so you were doing that, right?
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You were like stealing code from here, stealing code from there, parsing
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things together.
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Hello, Arvind.
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By the way, I want to address that.
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Let's see.
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Are you not building 12 updates anymore?
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Oh, we're going to talk about that.
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We're going to talk about that.
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Oh, yeah.
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What's that about that?
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Yeah, I can't wait.
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Virtual birthday party, like absolutely.
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Honestly, so virtual birthday party.
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I don't know about you, but turning 40, right?
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You know, kind of like, let's pretend it's not happening.
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It's either we can do that or we can just embrace it and be like,
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being old is great.
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We're mature and smart.
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A deaf friend of mine was like, you know what I'm going to do for my 40th birthday?
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It's like, he's just going to have a huge party.
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Like host his own birthday party and just invite all of his friends.
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And I'm like, man, that's so great.
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But I'm like, how do you do that when all your friends are across the country?
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And I'm like, virtual birthday party?
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Uh-huh.
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Yes.
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Yes, that sounds wonderful.
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Yeah.
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My daughter told me she was like, mom, this is another year of knowledge.
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Oh my gosh, you daughter's amazing.
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How old is she?
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She's nine.
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That's all my daughter is.
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Look at us.
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That is amazing.
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Okay.
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So your daughter sounds like she's extra too, because mine is very much like extra and sees
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things and makes comments like that.
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And I'm like, oh, I see you.
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You will see.
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Both of them are.
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Oh, both of them are.
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So I have a 10 year old son, a nine year old daughter and a seven year old daughter.
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So they're all right there.
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I love that so much though.
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Yeah, that is close together.
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10 and nine.
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That is like, how was that in early childhood?
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They're all a year and a half apart.
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So depending on when it is during the year, it sounds like two or closer together than
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the other, but they're all pretty much evenly spaced out.
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So even though, I guess Isaac and Adele are closer in age, like by only a couple months
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maybe then Adele and Emma, Adele, because of where their birthday falls in the year,
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Adele's in third grade right now and Emma's in second grade.
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So they're like right next to each other, which is kind of interesting now because they
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kind of share friends, but fight over friends already.
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But when they were little, a lot of it was just being in survival mode.
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But the nice thing is they're all kind of in the same thing together.
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So they're all in elementary school together doing the same thing together versus like
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me and my sister, my youngest sister and I are seven years apart.
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So there's a big difference between like, oh, I'm in college and you're still in middle
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school.
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Yeah.
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I have, I have 16 and 14 and those two are boys very close together, right?
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Two years.
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They're like almost exactly two years apart.
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But we were like, that's all we were going to have.
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And then later we're like, should we have another one?
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And then we had a nine year old daughter.
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So there's like the seven year gap between her and the youngest teenager.
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And then about three years ago, we were like, let's get a vasectomy.
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Let's be done with this.
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We know we're done.
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And then we're like, well, maybe like, let's just try it one more time.
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If God wants us to have another baby, like it'll happen.
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Boom.
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Pregnant instantly.
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So now we also have a two year old.
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We did lose the first one.
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11.
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But we lost it early.
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So we knew we wanted it once we lost that, that first pregnancy, we're like, see, it's
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meant to be.
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So we tried again.
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And then now we have a two year old.
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So I will tell you this.
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It is very, very nice to have them grouped together.
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But there is also sort of this beauty of having them spaced out as well because like my 14
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year old loves the two year old, my 16 year old loves the nine year old.
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My nine year old is my only girl.
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Otherwise I got a crew of boys.
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And it's just this beautiful sort of like little partnership with each other.
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So yeah.
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I can only imagine what your life was like in survival mode though.
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I was in survival mode with two under two or two under three and you were like three
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under three under three under four.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Dang.
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That's crazy.
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Yeah.
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But so my sister has one pretty close to mine.
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My kids.
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Oh nice.
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But she just had another one like in around Thanksgiving.
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So there's a little bit of a gap.
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And I know exactly what you're talking about because it's beautiful seeing the older kids
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take care of the younger ones.
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There's something special that they learn in that of just family and relationships and
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things like that.
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So I totally there's beauty both ways.
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Yeah.
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For sure.
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I agree.
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I never wanted kids.
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This is a whole conversation, but I never wanted kids.
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I never wanted to get married originally.
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Then I met my husband and he softened my soul.
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But now now that we have them and now that I've gotten into this space, I'm like I for
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the last probably five or six years are like, I'm not wishing my life away, but I'm like,
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I can't wait to be a grandma.
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Like because it's like, it's just so beautiful.
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And so now my older kids previously were like, man, I don't know if we want kids and they
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see their two year old brother and both of them are like, well, maybe we'll have one kid.
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Maybe we'll have a couple kids and I'm like, yes, grandma.
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Here I come.
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That's so funny.
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We talk all the time about what our names are going to be.
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So no, it's like a moving target, but I like joking me, mom, people.
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I love that.
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I love that.
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I love that.
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That's super fun.
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Okay.
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So, hey, Nick also.
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So Arvin is asking.
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So I feel like we should dive into what, you know, well, let's dive into like, what are
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you doing in your day to day?
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Let's start there and then Arvin can start to get his answers of what you're up to.
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So what does a day to day look like?
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You're obviously the lead maintainer on Redwood.
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J.S.
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Like what does that look like?
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I think a lot of devs are probably very, I don't want to say envious, but also like,
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whoa, that's cool.
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So let's go through your day.
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So let me just say framework code writing is completely different than like normal code
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writing because a lot of times you're working with things that are undocumented.
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So for example, we've been working on trying to implement RSCs into the framework for probably
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close to two years now, which sounds ridiculous, but there's just a lot of features with React
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that are undocumented, but not only React, but also VIT and VIT just really like these
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are their version six, which has environment frameworks, which makes a world of difference
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for what we're trying to do.
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But a lot of those things are undocumented and I don't blame those teams because a majority
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of the people are not using those features.
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They're just working with whatever the framework authors give them.
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So it's been up to us and we've been in special working groups with those companies trying
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to get that work across the finish line, but it's just, it's hard and tedious work.
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So my job does not look like that.
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I am more on like, I'd say DevRel-ish.
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It's a small team.
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So a lot of stuff that I'm doing is more like demo projects or teaching people how to use
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Redwood or going to conferences or creating YouTube videos or doing podcasts and stuff
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like this.
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So a lot of my work is building projects, which is kind of where that build 12 idea came
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from is like, okay, I have all these project ideas that I want to do.
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Instead of having to pick one, I'm just going to do all of them.
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And so that's where the build 12 came from.
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Yeah.
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So it's ambitious and I'm glad that you asked.
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It means a lot to me because it sounds like you're interested in the build 12 project.
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I'm still working on it.
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There's, so I mentioned this early in one of the updates is that Thomas Frank, he tweeted
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about this talking about build mode or cave mode and stage mode is what he called it.
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And so a lot of the updates that I did were at the beginning of the year when I was still
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on break from work because of the holidays and now trying to juggle everything is really
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hard.
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And so I've been in build mode.
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I've just been heads down focused and so trying to catch hats and talk about things is different.
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It's like, oh, I'm totally into this.
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I'm in the flow.
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I don't want to record a video to say this is what I'm doing.
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My original intention was to do more of that.
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And so I still want to figure out a way to find a better balance.
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But right now I'm feeling the pressure, the fact that there's nine days left in the month
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and I've got to figure out how to deliver that project and get across the finish line.
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But there's, we can talk about this.
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I'll kind of let you drive the conversation.
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There's different parts of that that I think I've already learned within the first month,
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whether that's scope, whether that's creating packages and things that I can move from one
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project to the next and trying to figure out better workflows along the way.
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Yeah.
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I think definitely if there's more to share on that, I would absolutely encourage you
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to dive into that because I think that's the type of stuff that we want to hear about.
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What are the challenges that you're facing and how are you getting past those hurdles
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and challenges and things that maybe coping methods are different types of process that
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you've brought into play to help you with those challenges.
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So I think that there's, we can take the conversation different ways.
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So one of the things I did last year was I read this book by, I think it's at Julia Cameron.
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I think that's her name, but she wrote the artist way.
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Have you heard about this?
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I have not.
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No.
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Oh, you would love it.
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I think you would love it.
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It's really good.
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It's more of like a workbook.
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So you just read a chapter a week.
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I read it over the course of like probably the entire year.
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So I wasn't doing just a chapter.
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Nice.
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There's 12 chapters.
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I think through it in three months.
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But I just kind of took it very leisurely, but a lot of it has journal prompts and things
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like that.
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It's focused on helping artists, but it applies to anything, anything I'd say, you know, development,
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writing, whatever, whatever your craft is, but getting you unstuck.
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And I wouldn't say that I was stuck, but it helps you sink through a lot of the problems
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that you have and kind of gives you different tools for doing that.
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So one of the things that she really encourages you to do is just a journal every day.
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I'm not great at doing that every single day, but it does help.
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Like I'll write things and realize I didn't even realize that was a thing.
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And it's just on paper.
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It was in the back of my brain.
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There's something about long form writing it out.
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It's a lot slower and more thoughtful than just typing it out.
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So I've always, I've always been a journaler, but really since having children, we were
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talking about that.
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That was one of the things that had kind of fallen off, but I really prioritized.
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And so there's several things like that that I feel like I've set the foundation for over
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the last year to give me the tools, but also just the energy and the excitement and the
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motivation to do this project.
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I love that.
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I definitely would really enjoy that.
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I used to also be a journaler as well.
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And I think the day is where, I don't know if you've heard of the Ivy Lee method, but
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I was actually just on a podcast and we were talking about neurodivergencies.
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So I'm like, I wanted to say I have ADHD, but I'm like, I might not.
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I might just be some other human brain because we've broke down a lot of stuff.
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But long story short, I have ADHD or I've been diagnosed with ADHD.
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And so I started implementing what's called the Ivy Lee method.
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And the Ivy Lee method is this idea of making your, the six items are going to get done
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each day.
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And so when you start your day, you prioritize that list, or maybe you did it the day before.
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And then when you end your day, right, you're like, Oh, what's moving to the next day?
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And so each day you're, you have these, these six items on your prioritize list.
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And hypothetically, I would love to stick to that, but it's something that I like, I
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dropped the ball on many days.
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But when I do sit there, I tend to actually write a little bit of like a journal.
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So when I sit down and make that list, it almost is like a brain dump of like, Oh, but
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I'm thinking about this.
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I want to do this with my business marketing.
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I need to catch up with this person potentially.
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And it's just interesting, like truly getting back around to the journaling, like how well
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that when you just let it out, it really can help you sort of just work through that.
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Like you said, subconsciously not realizing that.
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Something is in the back of your mind bothering you.
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Yeah, that's right.
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So that's, that's been a huge thing.
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And I think, you know, just talking about different hurdles with this particular project
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is I'm having to approach it differently than I have the rest of my work.
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So yeah, previously working at an agency, you're creating this full fledged application
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that an entire company is about their business around.
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And so you are trying to make it the best you can.
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You are trying to, in some cases feature stuff because that's what customers need or the client
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is asking for.
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And in this case, in order to deliver it and really just try and prove like whether this
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product would actually work or not, it's really about what's the core feature in the app.
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And that is so hard for me because I'm so good at scope, scope seep.
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So I don't know if this is a real thing.
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I heard talk about it, but scope creep is when a like a client will push stuff on you
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and ask traditional teachers.
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So seep is when they, oh, wouldn't this be nice?
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Let's add this in here.
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And it's not the client's fault.
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It's my fault for saying, oh, wouldn't this be wonderful?
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So just trying to hold that back and not let myself be my own worst enemy and get in the
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way of that.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Man, I am like so guilty of that.
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Hey, glad is welcome.
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I think that that is definitely, honestly, like, is there any developer that's good at
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that unless they're like type A that like doesn't let that seep come in?
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Because how do you not when your brain is in that mindset and you're like, oh my gosh,
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this would be beautiful because that's like RMO, right, is solving problems.
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So I'm definitely a scope seeper myself as well.
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Yeah.
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Well, and it's another thing too when like in this case, I am all the things.
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I am the project manager.
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I am the client.
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I am the developer.
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Whereas when you have an agency, that was always my kind of stop gap and protect.
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I was working with a project manager that was able to say, that's a great idea.
378
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Let's stick it in the backlog or like the client didn't ask for that.
379
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,440
So let's make sure that they're okay with that feature before you just stick it in there.
380
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Yeah.
381
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No kidding.
382
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No kidding.
383
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Yeah, I agree.
384
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I think it is hard when we're thinking about our own projects.
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And I think sometimes also, and I don't know about you, but like when I'm trying to sort
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of just build something for fun or create something, but I want to put that code out into the world.
387
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I also have this level of like wanting it to be perfect, which is problematic.
388
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And so I think the seat comes into play a lot with that because I'm like, well, even
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if this is for fun, like someone that could stumble upon this repo doesn't know that it
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was for fun and I don't want them to judge my code skills, you know, and so it's easy
391
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to let that happen.
392
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:21,560
Yeah.
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And I think, you know, that's the other beauty of the build 12 thing, the fact that it's
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like I have to deliver every single month.
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It kind of protects you from that level of perfectionism where you're like, I can't really
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sit because I didn't add this thing in yet.
397
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,040
It's like, no, I need to release it because I'm on a deadline.
398
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:38,040
Oh yeah.
399
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:39,040
Okay.
400
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:40,040
I love that.
401
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:41,040
This sounds fun.
402
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,360
Obviously, there's been a little pressure with this, but like, do you want to share
403
00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:46,720
what you built this month?
404
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:47,720
Do you want to dive into that a little bit?
405
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:48,720
Yeah.
406
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,120
Or do you want to wait to unveil it until you're...
407
00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:52,480
No, no, let's do it.
408
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,240
So and this is good because you can kind of bring in some of the framework conversations.
409
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So this month, my project is called the part time startup.
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And the idea with this is when we did the Redwood conference a year ago, September, it was
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one of my most favorite conferences because it was really centered around founders.
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I mean, obviously a lot of people that love Redwood came to the conference, but the things
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that we helped them with were marketing or business related.
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So the first day that we had people there, we did like this mastermind workshop where
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you had to pay extra money to be a part of it, but startups would come in and they would
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talk to the Redwood team.
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00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,600
And let me just, I guess, also add like Tom Preston Warner, who started GitHub, was part
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of that panel.
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So he has a venture capital company that he invests in other companies and startups and
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things like that.
421
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So it's not just like a framework team being like, oh, this is what I think.
422
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It's like, no, these people have experience in business and marketing and we're going
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to help speak into companies that are using the framework that we're building.
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But what was interesting to me about this workshop was that everybody that needed help
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did not need help on coding problems, did not need help on execution.
426
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It wasn't like, I'm trying to figure out why this, how to loop over and array.
427
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It was none of that stuff.
428
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It was I'm trying to find product market fit.
429
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I'm trying to figure out how to price my application.
430
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I'm trying to figure out what customers I need to talk to in order to get feedback.
431
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:25,760
And so there's so much more that goes into building an application beyond just the development.
432
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:31,280
And so part of the part time startup is to help create a community for people that are
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trying to build startups that need expertise from all those other fields.
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So the thing that I'm building right now is the platform and then that will launch and
435
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hopefully have other developers that are trying to build things come in.
436
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I'll do hot seeds and do interviews and things like that and bring people on.
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So I'm really excited about the community and I'm going to lock in the size of the community
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so that it stays nice and small and intimate and we can really help each other.
439
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So I think I'm, I'm excited about the code and the project.
440
00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,680
I'm more excited about the other side of that and the community that will come out of that
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particular project.
442
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So it'll be fun.
443
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That is so cool.
444
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,880
So I am like extremely excited about this project because that very much is my day to
445
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:20,880
day is that with my business in the beginning, it was like I was taking fractional dev rel
446
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work and I pivoted to dev tools only early stage dev tools only.
447
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,280
I realized I can't pivot to only early stage dev tools because they don't have all the
448
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,600
money in the world.
449
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:35,000
So I am again doing pivoting a little bit to be able to do both, right?
450
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,600
But I would say probably the last three to six months I've been hyper focused on technical
451
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founders and that's exactly the problems.
452
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,000
Like we can get into it and we're like, you know, we're talking about tech and whatever
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00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,320
else and like that's great.
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00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,520
Those are problems they know how to solve, but they do not like you said know how to
455
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solve that product market fit.
456
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:55,120
They don't know how to understand some of those pieces.
457
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:59,600
You and I should probably chat offline because I'm starting to build a tool that is more
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of like an AI tool that will take the insights that I've learned from like these types of
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interviews anonymized, of course, plus other developer conversations, other insights I
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00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,080
get, I have developers doing feedback for companies constantly that it's like constant
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flow of developer feedback and creating that into essentially like an AI app that someone
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00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,000
who is a technical founder could be like, how do I find my market fit and like having
463
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,520
very scripted sort of prompts to allow them to give them some insights.
464
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:31,240
So long story short, sounds like you and I have some shared, yes, I'm shared things
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here.
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00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:33,600
So please bring me into that community.
467
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I'd love to help as much as I can.
468
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,480
But yeah, I love that so much.
469
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,680
So do you want to talk about how you built it, the tech stack behind it?
470
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,680
Yes, tell me what you want to share.
471
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:50,640
Yes, so I'm going to take a step back and it's always better when you have a story,
472
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:51,640
right?
473
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:52,640
You have some context.
474
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:58,680
So last April, I went to ReactConf and spoke at ReactConf and while we were there, people
475
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:04,760
started talking about Laravel and just trying to find that JavaScript of Laravel type thing.
476
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,600
And I feel like that's something that's very prevalent conversation within the JavaScript
477
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community.
478
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What's interesting, it's like we love our composability.
479
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We love the fact that we can plug and play with whatever we want.
480
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,200
But at the same time, it makes certain decisions harder, right?
481
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,600
Because you're thinking, oh, well, I could use Neon for my database.
482
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,080
I could use SuperBase or my database.
483
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,600
And the problem with me is that a lot of times I'll start going down a certain path.
484
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:33,320
I'll hit an edge and like, oh, like, yeah, Neon is fantastic, but it doesn't, I'm going
485
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,440
to have to do auth and storage.
486
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,080
And so maybe I should just switch to SuperBase and pull it all in.
487
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,080
And it's like, okay, if you were building any application, you said, I'm going to change
488
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,160
my entire database layer into all these things.
489
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,040
Like that's a major shift in what you're building.
490
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:53,280
And I know developers in the Rails world and the PHP world just look at us and like, you
491
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:54,280
guys are crazy.
492
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,280
Yes, yes, we do.
493
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,280
We are.
494
00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,280
We are.
495
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:07,000
So part of this is, you know, as a framework maintainer is trying to make sure I understand
496
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,520
all the options that are available.
497
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,280
And so people are saying that Laravel is so great.
498
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,800
I've been curious, like, what is, what is so great about Laravel?
499
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,920
So I leveled up on Laravel last year and was like, I'm going to build this on Laravel.
500
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,560
And of course, like I hit an edge and I'm like, oh, I'm just going to, I'm going to
501
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:23,560
switch over.
502
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,360
I'm going to try a different framework.
503
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:30,040
And so part of it has been like, I started building at Laravel and now I'm shifted over
504
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,280
and I'm building this in next right now.
505
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,200
And part of it is because with Redwood, we have been trying to implement RSEs and SSR
506
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,400
and all these other pieces.
507
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,400
And it's, I feel like it's getting to, it's getting close, it's getting to a good point,
508
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,160
but I just know over the next year, I am going to have to talk a lot about SSR educating
509
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:54,680
people on RSEs and trying to, like, if next is the only viable option right now, compare
510
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,520
and contrast those things.
511
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,360
So some of this has been like an education piece of it, trying to level up for work.
512
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:03,600
But I just, I also just missed my JavaScript.
513
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,840
So anyways, I've moved over to next.
514
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,600
I'm all in on next right now for this particular project.
515
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,560
But I'm telling you RSEs, I've been slightly skeptical just because it's been so hard for
516
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,680
us to implement, but they really are great.
517
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:17,680
They're pretty fantastic.
518
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:23,440
And, you know, I think that's the other piece for me is I can read tutorials, I can watch
519
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:28,280
the videos, but for me to really get the vibe of the framework and figure out how I feel
520
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,800
about something, I have to build a project in it.
521
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:35,080
That's when you start to hit the edges and understand, oh, this nesting database thing
522
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,040
is really difficult or trying to generate types on this is really hard.
523
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:43,080
And so that kind of tends to go into that next piece.
524
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,720
I don't know if you're ready for it, but just figuring out what parts of this project can
525
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,440
I bring on to the next month?
526
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,440
What are the things like forward to make it easier?
527
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,800
And we kind of snowball as the year goes on.
528
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,160
Yeah, I love that.
529
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,840
Arvin's had a comment that I threw up on the stream.
530
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:04,000
Not sure if that's something you're open to or if this is a Amy sort of building only.
531
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,520
He's Arvin's actually the person that told me that you were building this project.
532
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,760
So I was like, oh, I gotta catch up with Amy.
533
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:09,760
Yeah.
534
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:10,760
Yeah.
535
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,600
So yeah, I was gonna say, Arvin reach out to me.
536
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,280
I'm self-teach me on most channels and we can talk.
537
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,040
It's funny that you say that because I've had several people say like we want to jump
538
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:20,040
in.
539
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:26,480
I've even had people say that like what are you gonna do in month 11 and now you have
540
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,400
10 projects you're trying to maintain?
541
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,400
Yeah.
542
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,520
I just put off and I was like, that's future Amy problem.
543
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,400
But I've had people that have said like, can we help you build a community or they're
544
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:43,000
juniors that you can bring on and you can help educate to help with the maintenance side
545
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,000
of things.
546
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,480
So I haven't quite figured all that stuff out, but I have had people asking.
547
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:52,440
So I take that if multiple people are asking, then there is something there.
548
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:53,680
There is definitely something there.
549
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,640
I think that's the interesting thing like, you know, coming back to like open source
550
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:57,640
software, right?
551
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,720
Like that's you play a pivotal role in that of like, there is a whole entire program or
552
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,080
sort of maintenance that needs to go into an open source project.
553
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,120
Should you want it to actually be something that you're maintaining and you're continually
554
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:09,120
working on?
555
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:11,320
Of course, you can be like, here's the repo.
556
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:12,320
Go touch it.
557
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:13,320
I'm not updating it.
558
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:14,320
I'm not doing anything to it.
559
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,320
It was a one and done, beautiful, fun project.
560
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,920
But I think naturally you're still going to have those developers go and find it, right?
561
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,200
You know, Arvind or anyone else who is just really eager and excited about what you're
562
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,200
building.
563
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,360
So if you want to, no pressure, I'll just throw this out here.
564
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:31,320
Like the built for devs hub is very much, I'm trying to curate this.
565
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,040
I'm trying to bring developers together so that they can do these types of things.
566
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,960
There's different subset of so many features in the community platform that I've been able
567
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,120
to graciously receive from graduates to quick shout out to them.
568
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:46,840
And so in that platform, which these streams go in that platform, but then there's also
569
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,880
we've had live events, we've got round table conversations, we've got one on one dev match
570
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,600
introductions and things like that.
571
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:58,920
So if you ever want to do something in there to bring together some developers or co-work,
572
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,880
I'd love to host you in there.
573
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,840
So I'm sure you have other, many other places too, but yeah.
574
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,360
I was just talking about this, but I really think that I've actually talked about it everywhere.
575
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:14,400
And it's been a, my theme for the last few weeks is like developers are so hungry to
576
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:15,920
hang out with each other right now.
577
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,640
And it's, I don't know if it's post COVID, if it's the job market, if it's, you know,
578
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:25,200
sort of an anti trust kind of vibe that society sort of has right now generally, you know,
579
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:26,400
people trying to find their tribe.
580
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,320
So long story short, whatever you end up doing, there are many developers I think would love
581
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,400
to be involved because they're all, they're all discerning for hanging out with their
582
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:35,400
peers.
583
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:36,400
Yeah.
584
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,000
That's, that's really interesting.
585
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,000
Definitely food for thought.
586
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,000
Yeah.
587
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,000
Yeah, for sure.
588
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,800
Well, I mean, your first project is already going to sort of have a bit of maintenance
589
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:45,800
to it, right?
590
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,400
If you're bringing together a community, we all know how difficult maintaining and growing
591
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,720
and expanding and actually like having a community will operate.
592
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:59,560
So have you thought about that or do you have sort of, yeah, what's your, I don't know,
593
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:00,560
do you want to talk about that?
594
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,960
You're going to build the community or is that like a, we'll think about that later
595
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:03,960
thing.
596
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,640
Both hands, both hands.
597
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,160
I've also thought about bringing on help.
598
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,760
So have you done the strength finders?
599
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,360
That's really interesting too.
600
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:16,160
The discs ones or like the, this one is like Gallup.
601
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,600
I think it's just called strength finders unless they change the name.
602
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:20,600
I mean, I've done like disc.
603
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:21,600
I've done the motivation.
604
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:22,600
Yeah, there's a bunch.
605
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:23,600
Yeah.
606
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:24,600
Yeah.
607
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:25,600
I'd love that stuff.
608
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:26,600
Yeah.
609
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:27,600
There's a bunch.
610
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,600
So what's interesting about the whole strength finders philosophy is that, you know, sometimes
611
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,680
you'll hear people say like, oh, you need to work on your weaknesses, you know, identify
612
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,240
those and try and build them up and strength finders says, no, that's, that's dumb.
613
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:42,760
You're already good at certain things.
614
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,760
You're already inclined to certain things.
615
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,160
So why not lean into that?
616
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:47,880
That's your area of strength.
617
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,640
Bring on somebody else that's good at the points that are your weakness and get them
618
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:53,840
to fill in those gaps.
619
00:28:53,840 --> 00:29:00,000
So that's obviously not an excuse for bad communication or, you know, not, not being
620
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,280
committed to things, but it does say like, these are the things that I know that I'm
621
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:05,280
good at.
622
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,920
I feel like we were talking about being 40.
623
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,920
That's something that I've heard and other people that are around that age where it's
624
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,680
coming to terms with this is who I am and I'm okay with that.
625
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:16,680
Exactly.
626
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,720
So I think for me, it's one of the things I love the community aspect of it.
627
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,080
I have a small discord that I'm a part of that is like my favorite place on the internet
628
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,960
because it's people that are active and, you know, rally around each other and support
629
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:31,960
each other.
630
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,080
And that's really what I want to build with what I'm doing.
631
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:39,520
So it's, I love that side of it, but it's also understanding like if I can bring somebody
632
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,480
on to help with the admin stuff, to help with support questions that can send stuff out,
633
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,440
they can't do the design work, they can't do the coding, like let's let them drive that
634
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:49,440
peak of it.
635
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,480
So I have been thinking about ways to bring people in that are naturally good at that stuff.
636
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:59,360
But it is their strength that allowed them to focus on the things they're good at and
637
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,200
allow me to focus on the things that I'm good at.
638
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,920
So when you're talking about bringing on community people, that would definitely be an area where
639
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,320
I would love help.
640
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:08,320
Yeah.
641
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,320
Yeah.
642
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:10,320
I think that makes sense.
643
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,000
Honestly, I love that very much because I've actually struggled with that in my business
644
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,080
over the last year.
645
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,680
And I wouldn't say struggled per se, but the struggle has been, I am good at certain things,
646
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:21,680
right?
647
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:22,680
And there are things I am not good at.
648
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,680
And at this point in time in my career, I've been able to be like, Oh, I'm not going to
649
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:26,880
be a part of those things.
650
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:33,360
But the execution of day to day minute little tasks are nearly impossible for me.
651
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,920
And so it has to be like, okay, I'm going to get in my headspace.
652
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,400
I'm going to start working on this thing.
653
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:43,160
I'm going to get through the little minute tasks, but it's more of I'm the strategist.
654
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,160
I'm the ideation.
655
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,480
I'm the like big picture and very much strong on that side.
656
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,080
And I just have found that I'm like, why is some of this work not working?
657
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,240
Like I had a few different service deliverables that were like me getting into the weeds and
658
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:57,600
doing some of the devrel.
659
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,400
And I'm like, why are these clients so hard?
660
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,440
And I've had to self reflect and realize, ah, this is the work I should be outsourcing,
661
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:04,440
right?
662
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,960
It's like, I can be that beautiful strategy and bring in the right people to go and execute
663
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,120
against that strategy.
664
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:15,080
And it's, I don't know, it's hard to shift into some of that headspace, right?
665
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,600
And it's hard for us to sort of identify these weaknesses.
666
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,040
But gosh, when you can and do that, I think it's really empowering and can change everything,
667
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:24,040
honestly.
668
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,040
Yeah.
669
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,840
I mean, I think that's kind of the next step that people struggle with.
670
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,120
It's like one thing to identify it, but another thing to like publicly admit it to say, I'm
671
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,640
not good at like filling out contracts.
672
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,240
Yes, they take five minutes, but they drain.
673
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,240
You're so draining.
674
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,440
Proposals are my draining thing in that way.
675
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:44,440
Yeah.
676
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:45,960
Why not just outsource that piece?
677
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,480
Tell them this is what, what I want to do.
678
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,560
I tell you what has made a world of difference to me is AI.
679
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:52,560
Yep.
680
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:53,560
Same.
681
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,120
I'm curious, you know, as you're talking about getting feedback and using AI to do all this
682
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,480
stuff, writing has always been hard for me.
683
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,320
I'm a much better editor than I am a writer.
684
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,840
But I tell you what, Claude and me can knock stuff out.
685
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,360
It's fantastic.
686
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:13,280
So I just love what AI has opened up in that regard.
687
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:14,280
Yeah.
688
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,440
Honestly, I agree.
689
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,640
Like especially when it comes to proposals, like I think I'm starting to sort of find
690
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,920
a rhythm and I'm getting to a place of like having a default proposal and I'm going to
691
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,200
strip out what, what doesn't, but with my different service pivots and trying to figure
692
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,600
out what's sort of my rhythm and where do I want to kind of niche into.
693
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,280
It's been hard, but like chat GPT.
694
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,440
So I love Claude and really loved Claude, but Claude's kind of on the fritz lately.
695
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:37,880
I don't know if you've noticed that.
696
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,680
So I actually started using chat GPT and like chat GPT has been delivering for me a little
697
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:47,200
bit better, but I will say like that is I need to get past just that empty paper space.
698
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,500
So like I love writing.
699
00:32:48,500 --> 00:32:49,680
I love doing this stuff.
700
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,560
I love like curating these things, but it's the like getting started.
701
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,840
And so I'll be like, I need a proposal and I record every single, um, consult that I
702
00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:58,840
have.
703
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,400
So I go through anonymize it, bring that into mostly Claude cause it's private and I'm in
704
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,080
the private account and pro account.
705
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,880
Um, but I bring that in and I'm like, okay, let's run this, right?
706
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,320
Like what type of, what should be in that proposal?
707
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,440
Like someone in one of my live streams, um, I think it was a couple of weeks ago.
708
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,960
I can't remember who it was, but shout out to Joe Casabona.
709
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:15,960
That's what it was.
710
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:21,840
So he told me about a sales life cycle add in, um, to chat GPT where you can essentially
711
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,280
put your anonymized transcript in there and it'll, it'll, uh, summarize your entire sales
712
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,280
conversation.
713
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:29,280
So beautiful.
714
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:30,640
So I agree.
715
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:35,440
And that it's, um, my weaknesses are getting started sometimes in those types of things
716
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:40,640
and it's been able to get, get me started in those areas that yeah, I previously struggled
717
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:41,640
with.
718
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:46,640
I see what, what the thing that made a difference for me with Claude is so you have, you can
719
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,000
set up different projects, but I found like, I would start a chat within the project and
720
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,360
it's like, do you not know that we've already talked about this project 10 times?
721
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:55,360
Yes.
722
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,360
Yes.
723
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:57,360
It's so annoying.
724
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,760
But, but so what I found out, I did a little bit of reading and what it does is it references
725
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:06,800
your project artifacts that you have, not just your individual chats.
726
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:12,440
And so if you set up context for like a context document for that project, it will blow the
727
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,920
water out of whatever chat you have.
728
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:22,000
So for example, um, compressed FM, I have, it's a podcast that I co-host and we have
729
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,960
different artifacts or assets that we will generate with each episode.
730
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:33,880
So that's chapter notes, um, a summary, it's social posts, audio clips, suggested blog posts,
731
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:34,880
all these things.
732
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,360
I had previously set up a custom GPT where I just said to chat GPT, hey, generate all
733
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:40,360
these things.
734
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,960
And it's great because you could just say generate all the assets and it would do it.
735
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,520
But the quality wasn't stellar.
736
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,240
So some of the things that I would say with the chapter, the notes or the summaries, I
737
00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:52,240
was like, I would never say that.
738
00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:56,400
And so I found out like Claude was giving me better results.
739
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:01,760
Like it was talking more like I talk or, you know, I could still edit things, but, um,
740
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,760
it was still like every episode that I'd started new chat on it was like, it never heard of
741
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:06,760
compressed FM.
742
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:12,600
So finally, what I did was I said, I was like, okay, I need to create a context document
743
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,000
to add to the project.
744
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,560
I'm not even sure what it needs.
745
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,320
So I went to Claude and I said, Hey, I'm going to, I want to create a context document
746
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,240
for you for this project.
747
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:25,360
What do you need to know to make this context document for you successful?
748
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:26,880
And it asked me a bunch of questions.
749
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,000
I just threw it all in there.
750
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,000
And then you can say any artifacts that Claude generates, you can click a button that says
751
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,840
add to project and it will add that markdown file to the project files.
752
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,920
And so then anything else I asked it, it was like brilliant.
753
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,120
Like I didn't have to explain all these things.
754
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,400
Uh, it was able to deliver social media strategy.
755
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:51,600
It's been really helpful anytime I've had other, uh, episode assets I need to generate
756
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,480
for it has some context for what the podcast is and who our audience is.
757
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:56,480
Yeah.
758
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,760
And you know, it's interesting because I use the product, I use the project knowledge
759
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,200
and I also use a little prompting in Claude, right?
760
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,840
Where you can sort of explain what are you trying to do and it'll maintain that with
761
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,000
your project.
762
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,960
But I think this, the thing that I am missing is, is creating the context from each chat.
763
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:10,960
So just like you said, right?
764
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,120
It's like, okay, what happened in that first chat or what happened in that second chat
765
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,000
that got us to that progress and then updating that project knowledge with the conversation
766
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,520
results, which I think is where I'm sort of lacking.
767
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,360
I honestly need to go back and like I have, I have some templates.
768
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:25,360
Yeah.
769
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:26,360
Go ahead.
770
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,360
I was going to say at the end, you can say, will you generate a summary of this conversation
771
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,440
that I can add to the project documents and it'll generate that summary for you that you
772
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:35,440
can then add.
773
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,760
So I've seen people use that too.
774
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,800
When they'll hit a limit in Claude, that's I think a big difference between Claude and
775
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,440
what I've seen with chat GPTS people are hitting limits.
776
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,320
You can get to the end of the conversation and say, Hey, I need to move to another conversation.
777
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,680
We use summarize all the key points and kind of how we arrived at this so I can add it
778
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,640
to the project or take it to the next conversation.
779
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,680
And it will generate that argument for you.
780
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:58,680
Yeah.
781
00:36:58,680 --> 00:36:59,680
I need to start doing that.
782
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,200
I honestly, like I have some prompts templates and stuff for the work like I was talking
783
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:03,800
about with like the product market fit.
784
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,520
And I actually have this whole like developer ecosystem report for early stage dev tool founders,
785
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,560
which sort of compares and contrast their features and opportunities to their competitors,
786
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,920
but also shows them like, Hey, you fit in the market right here.
787
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:17,920
There is a gap.
788
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:18,920
Nice.
789
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,120
You can come fit in here.
790
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,000
And so I've started working towards there's prompt those prompts, but it's like, that's
791
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:24,360
the only space of efficiency.
792
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:29,720
I think I have, and so I need to spend more time investing in my, my sort of tools to
793
00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:34,320
end process in that way, I think, um, which has been so hard for me in business because
794
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,320
that's actually what I like to do is I like to have this whole beautiful system process.
795
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:39,320
Everything is automated.
796
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,260
Everything is what it's supposed to be.
797
00:37:41,260 --> 00:37:45,040
But because of like starting a new business with my executive coach, he's like, Don't
798
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:46,040
do that yet.
799
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,120
You don't know what the process is yet.
800
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,480
And so then I've gone almost this whole year not doing it.
801
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,560
And now I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's killing me.
802
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,320
I'm like, I have to go back to process now because now I am a lot of norms.
803
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,560
And so, um, yeah, it's been interesting.
804
00:37:58,560 --> 00:37:59,640
I think there's a lot to learn.
805
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,720
And I've tried to follow some of the newsletters.
806
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:05,960
I don't know if you have tips, but, um, I'd love to find someone who's just like using
807
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,640
it like in this way and then communicating about it all the time.
808
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:09,800
Like this is my win.
809
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:10,800
I win.
810
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,520
Um, I don't know, kind of guide us a little bit.
811
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,800
I'm sure those exist, but I'd love to find those resources.
812
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,400
So please share them with me if someone's hearing and they have them.
813
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,000
Well, and I was even thinking like some of the stuff that I've been working like I would
814
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,320
like somebody to tell me how you did it.
815
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:25,320
Yes.
816
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:26,320
Yes.
817
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,360
So, you know, we're talking about that cave mode versus stage mode.
818
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,720
I'm like, that's the stuff that I want to share.
819
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:35,520
Like this is the best way to generate marketing copy for a landing page.
820
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,920
This is how I use the AI to do it.
821
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,120
I think that's super interesting.
822
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,560
Uh, or I did freaking full stack in October around Halloween.
823
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,640
So I did a workshop where I taught people how to build a full stack application called
824
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,200
it freaking full stack, themed it for Halloween.
825
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:52,320
It was really fun.
826
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,960
But all most of the assets that I use for that project were all generated by AI, whether
827
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,720
that was the copy on the marketing page or the artwork or all that stuff.
828
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:03,360
AI, I've just been blown away.
829
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,360
I'm like, this is, this is the future.
830
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,720
Um, but I also think you have to have that filter of being able to edit it.
831
00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:13,320
Um, because I will go on the fritz sometimes.
832
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:14,520
Uh, I do agree.
833
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,920
The longer conversation, the worst results you're going to get.
834
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:23,120
I've definitely realized that, um, I think also too, it's like, I found sort of the downfall.
835
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,000
I think that was hard for me last year was that as I was trying to grow my business,
836
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,080
I was also like, okay, what am I not thinking about?
837
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:30,080
Right.
838
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,080
And I think that's what's hard about starting something new.
839
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,040
And so I would go to Claude and just be like, Hey, if I was going to offer services, like
840
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,800
I kind of dumped like, here's what I'm good at.
841
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:37,800
Here's what I've done.
842
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,320
Dumped in some other resources, some content.
843
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,800
And I was like, what services should I think about?
844
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,320
And I think like I allowed AI to sort of take me down a path.
845
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,160
I was like, Oh, this is good.
846
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,040
And then I would get down it and like, I realized I'm like, dude, I don't really want to be
847
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,920
working on product market fit for like a mid level established startup.
848
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,040
Like that is, I'm not a marketer, you know, like, yes, I can do it.
849
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:00,040
I get it.
850
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:01,040
I understand developers.
851
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,320
And so I found myself almost like offering and doing some services that like felt so
852
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,200
accurate and so right for clients.
853
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,960
And sure they were great results, but I was like, this is not what I love doing.
854
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:15,240
So I will say there's also sort of a negative of AI where I feel like if you're using it
855
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:19,480
in like open green space, it can definitely guide you.
856
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:24,200
And I'm not saying it was like, I guided everything, but it sort of slowed me down almost in some
857
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,120
ways and then had to kind of step back and be like, okay, no, I can't use it for all
858
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:29,120
the things.
859
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:34,640
Like how do I take who I am and what I want to do and harness it more into how does that
860
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,200
convert into the right services?
861
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,960
How does that convert into the right work and deliverables and things?
862
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:39,960
So yeah.
863
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:40,960
Yeah.
864
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:48,160
I'm convinced more than ever that the stuff that we bring to the table is what is going
865
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:53,120
to elevate it because you have AI stuff, which is good, but it's like everybody has that
866
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:54,120
AI layer.
867
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,800
And so it's like, what are people interested above and beyond that?
868
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:57,800
And that's you.
869
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,280
That's what you have to bring to the table.
870
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,000
It's your experiences and the knowledge that you have.
871
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,320
And that's your competitive advantage that nobody else can offer.
872
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:06,320
Boom.
873
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,200
I agree with that.
874
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:09,200
I love that too.
875
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,760
There's many people like Aaron Francis is like a really good advocate of like sharing
876
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:13,760
what you learned.
877
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:14,760
Yeah.
878
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:15,760
Yeah.
879
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:16,760
Quite a few folks, right?
880
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,640
Like compressed FM, you guys talk about a lot about this too and just sort of sharing
881
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,880
what you learn, all sort of topics.
882
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,840
But I think that's really the essence.
883
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,200
And you know, like with many conversations, I've talked to a lot of developers through
884
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,880
the show and otherwise, and there's the, is AI taking their jobs and it's a hot topic.
885
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,920
And I think it's like the big essence that has come out of from everyone is like, it
886
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:37,680
can never be human.
887
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,880
It can never be you and have what you have experienced and gone through and what your
888
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:47,240
brain knows and what you can do as like a human to take something that's computerized
889
00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:49,280
and make it effective for other humans.
890
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,640
So I think that is, I think that's what's going to set us apart from AI generally as
891
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:54,640
well.
892
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:55,640
So I love that.
893
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:56,640
Love that commentary.
894
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:57,640
Can't see.
895
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,760
Dodds has an interesting take on that too.
896
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:05,680
Cause he's like, AI is taking your jobs, but it's not the way that you think it's fair
897
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,800
controlling the interview process now.
898
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,800
Yeah.
899
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,680
That's the piece that you gotta put up.
900
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,160
Oh, I love that.
901
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:16,160
I love that.
902
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:17,160
I'm going to have to go engage with that.
903
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,960
I'll send you the link if you're interested.
904
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,360
Yes, please do.
905
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:22,360
Okay.
906
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,680
So you have obviously, you tried Laravel and you went to Next.js.
907
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:30,320
I am a PHP dev or was I've encoded in a hot minute.
908
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:34,280
And so I would love to dive into Laravel, the app that I was talking about where I want
909
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,480
to like essentially create this AI agent, right?
910
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,520
To allow folks to sort of tap into the insights I know.
911
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:46,080
I wanted to build out my entire web website structure in Laravel with, you know, modern
912
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,360
JS like on the front end so that I could learn.
913
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,040
And so like as you were diving into Laravel, are there any sort of lessons or like, why
914
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:54,040
did you go back to Next.js?
915
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,920
If you don't mind me crying into that.
916
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:57,920
Yes.
917
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:58,920
Yes.
918
00:42:58,920 --> 00:42:59,920
Yes.
919
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:00,920
Okay.
920
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,120
So I've kind of come to the realization as a full stack developer, there are two
921
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:04,760
different ways you can approach a project.
922
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,800
You can work from the back ends to the front end, or you can work from the front end to
923
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:09,800
the back end.
924
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,960
And a lot of the way that I think the way that I work, and I don't know if that's just
925
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,320
because my design background, but I think more front end to back end.
926
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:24,800
And so that was kind of where I hit a wall with Laravel is because you kind of want to
927
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,480
build the database, the API first, and then move to the front end.
928
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:33,800
So the part that I loved about it was the back ends because you can just hammer through
929
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:34,800
stuff.
930
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:40,280
They have all kinds of helpers and generators for creating factories and seed files and migrations
931
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:41,920
and all the things.
932
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:43,800
But then I really struggled.
933
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,200
And so this is the other thing.
934
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:52,600
I don't know whether I struggled because I didn't have the experience to get there yet.
935
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,120
And it just would take time for me to be more comfortable with it.
936
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:03,720
But moving from basically PHP to Blade, their templating language to Livewire, which is
937
00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:09,400
kind of their dynamic RSC thing, to Alpine, using all four of those things together, was
938
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:10,400
just so hard.
939
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,920
And I don't know if I just didn't, I couldn't wrap my head around that paradigm.
940
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,840
I did have a breakthrough moment, again, going back to AI.
941
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,160
I asked ChatGPT.
942
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:26,240
I was like, I am a React developer trying to learn Alpine and Livewire.
943
00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:32,200
What are the paradigm shifts that I need to know that will help me understand the differences?
944
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:37,800
And that was a breakthrough for me because it was like, well, React is all state-based
945
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,240
because you're just maintaining state and saving data.
946
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:43,600
Alpine and Livewire are more event-based.
947
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,120
So you'll fire off events, which is really how traditional JavaScript works.
948
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,040
You fire off events and you listen for events.
949
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:54,920
And it was like, oh, that unlocked something in my brain that I was like, I understand
950
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:55,920
why this wasn't working.
951
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,880
I was trying to save a state and you don't care about the state, you care about the event.
952
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:02,760
So just things like that that are different.
953
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:08,400
And I think, as I was saying, it could just be time that as you get more experience, you
954
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:09,720
get more comfortable in it.
955
00:45:09,720 --> 00:45:12,560
But for Build 12, I'm trying to move fast.
956
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:17,840
And so I'm just trying to pick more boring tech, even though RSC is kind of cutting edge,
957
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,800
the pick-boring tech that has a lot of support, has a large community and kind of move forward
958
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:22,800
with that.
959
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:23,800
Yeah.
960
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,840
And I think too, with like moving fast, it's easier to stay sort of like, I don't want
961
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,440
to say in your lane, but like stay with the tools and things that you're very comfortable
962
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,520
with because you can move quicker there.
963
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:38,560
That was like my thing with every, even like building my website has been such a nightmare
964
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,880
because I'm like, I just want something quick, you know, like I don't even, I don't need
965
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:43,800
anything fancy or complicated.
966
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:45,280
It's just a marketing website.
967
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,000
But my brain was like, okay, well, I know all these things like, how should I go build
968
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:50,000
it?
969
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,000
How should I go do it?
970
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,000
And then I wanted to try something new.
971
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,000
And it was like, I just went back to like what I knew, right?
972
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,960
It was like, ended up back at Ghost because I'm like, I get Ghost.
973
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:56,960
It's easy.
974
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:57,960
It's simple.
975
00:45:57,960 --> 00:45:59,840
It's, you know, handlebar templating so straightforward.
976
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:00,840
Boom.
977
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:01,840
You know?
978
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:06,400
But I think the like developer problem solver in us, right, wants to go out and start to
979
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,640
pry and figure out and learn new tech because like that's what we love.
980
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,400
But it doesn't always mean we're the most efficient with that new tech right off the back.
981
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,480
And another interesting thing, and I grabbed all the numbers for this.
982
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:18,960
I need to release it in a blog post.
983
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:24,040
That was my intention is the cost of these services.
984
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,080
So with Lerable, a lot of the stuff is all bundled in.
985
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:28,920
You get background jobs.
986
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,720
You get, you know, different drivers for storage and email and things like that.
987
00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:36,680
But you do have to figure out hosting.
988
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,040
It's a little bit different situation.
989
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:39,520
I know that they have cloud.
990
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,520
I'm not sure if that's released or it's coming.
991
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,600
It will be interesting to see how that plays out.
992
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,480
So you have to handle all that stuff.
993
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,040
Whereas in the JavaScript ecosystem, a lot of times we're like, oh, it's free.
994
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:52,040
It's free.
995
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:53,040
Yeah.
996
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:54,040
Yeah.
997
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:55,040
At what point do you hit those limits?
998
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:59,120
And because it is composable, it's like, okay, well, I'm pulling in just for jobs.
999
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:04,440
I'm pulling in, I'm using super base for my database, my authentication and storage.
1000
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:05,560
So what does that look like?
1001
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,960
And then not only that, but it's like, okay, if I'm going to do this for 12 projects, what
1002
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:15,480
did the cost look like at one month versus 12 months when I have 12 projects and how
1003
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:16,480
does that scale?
1004
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:21,320
So I did crunch the numbers on that to see what, what's the cheapest option?
1005
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,600
What is the cheapest tech stack that I can pull in?
1006
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,200
So that's interesting too.
1007
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:26,200
Yeah.
1008
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:27,400
No, that is really interesting.
1009
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,440
Honestly, like I think hosting is a whole thing.
1010
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:35,360
Like when people talk about that and I understand like right, like Larval and, you know, it's
1011
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,560
a little bit more complicated and everyone's like, oh, the cloud, the cloud.
1012
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,840
And I'm just like, I don't like, why the cloud?
1013
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,760
Like why, why can't we like set up servers and like, you know, run our own infrastructure?
1014
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,400
And, but I think that's like, you know, sort of aging and dating myself, which I feel like
1015
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:50,960
you can probably relate to too.
1016
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,040
It's like early on, like you had to know DevOps, you had to know infrastructure, you had to
1017
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:55,920
know kind of everything to build something.
1018
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,560
And, and now we kind of run to like this answer of like the cloud and Kubernetes and this
1019
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,240
is the way and I'm just like, but it's really complicated.
1020
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:08,240
And if you're just building an app, like why, why, why is that the answer?
1021
00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:10,480
But that's a whole nother conversation.
1022
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,440
We're probably a whole nother live stream, honestly.
1023
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:15,440
Okay.
1024
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:16,840
So we are nearing our end.
1025
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,400
Actually, we're like over the time that I booked.
1026
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,960
So I hope that you're still okay for another couple of minutes to wrap up at least, but
1027
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:24,240
perfect.
1028
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:29,480
I would love to hear this is like, we touched on sort of everything that we really got to
1029
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,640
talk about.
1030
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:33,840
You said that you went to school for something.
1031
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,360
Did you say that you went for something different than like programming and such?
1032
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,440
What did you end up going to school for officially?
1033
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,120
It's, it's like all related now.
1034
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:49,480
So I, I did get started in web development when I was 16.
1035
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:55,440
I just, my first job ever was, I was updating a website through a CMS.
1036
00:48:55,440 --> 00:49:00,040
So I knew like for HTML tags, I knew the paragraph tag, the break tag, old tag, the
1037
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,240
italics tag and a anchor link.
1038
00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:04,240
And that's all I could do.
1039
00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:06,320
I was just, you know, filling out forms in a CMS.
1040
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:12,640
And so then the next summer, I got a job working at the agency that had built the CMS.
1041
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:17,440
And so I show up and they, cause I mean, I kind of worked with them through support
1042
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:18,440
calls and things like that.
1043
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,040
So the first day I get my very first ticket.
1044
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,360
And then the ticket is to add an image to a website.
1045
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:29,600
And this is like back enough that you had more of that webmaster mentality where if
1046
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:33,400
you need to update your website, you would email the company that you need the update.
1047
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:34,960
So I just had to add an image.
1048
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,080
That was the, that was a task.
1049
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:38,080
So simple, right?
1050
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:39,080
I couldn't figure out how to do it.
1051
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:40,080
So I just know my five tags.
1052
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,080
I don't know how to add an image.
1053
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:50,160
And so anyways, most of the summer I just spent answering phone calls and trying to
1054
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,720
do what I could, but it was, it was so boring.
1055
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,600
It was just answering phone calls.
1056
00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:01,760
There was a guy there that just kind of believed in me and the fact that I was 16 and hungry.
1057
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:06,200
And so he gave me a book probably about midway towards the end of the summer called, I don't
1058
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,360
even remember, HTML for dummies or something.
1059
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:14,600
It wasn't the official book, but anyway, I like blew through that book and I was just,
1060
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:15,960
oh, this is amazing.
1061
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,160
Like I understand now how all this stuff fits together.
1062
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:23,920
I understand tables now, you know, all these other pieces, but a huge breakthrough for me
1063
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:25,960
was then I went back to school in the fall.
1064
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,520
So that was my senior year and they had a career shadow day.
1065
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,240
And so I went back to the agency that I'd worked at that summer and the guy that had
1066
00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:37,640
given me the book, I just sat at his desk right behind him and we built a website together.
1067
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:41,960
You know, I mentioned slicing and dicing where you get these images, you create tables and
1068
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:43,480
fireworks and all the things.
1069
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:44,600
I watched him do it.
1070
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:48,480
I looked over his shoulder and I think, you know, that's the value a lot of times with
1071
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,800
live streaming is you can see what somebody else's workflow is.
1072
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,800
You can see when they hit error messages, what those error messages mean and how they
1073
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,080
work through them.
1074
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,960
And so for me, there was something that just unlocked that day.
1075
00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:04,360
So I came home and immediately just started hacking on my computer, designing a website
1076
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,240
that I could build out.
1077
00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:12,360
And I ended up going back that next summer and I was a production artist that summer.
1078
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,560
Yes, I still answered that.
1079
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,840
I was basically doing everything that my supervisor was doing.
1080
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:20,720
I was building websites for clients.
1081
00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:25,600
I got to the point where clients would request for me to build their site or to make updates.
1082
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,840
And the amazing thing about this, and I just look at this and see like not everybody has
1083
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,360
this opportunity, but my heart was really designed.
1084
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,680
That was kind of where I came from, what I wanted to be doing.
1085
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:39,360
And they knew that.
1086
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:43,720
And so while I was doing the work, the designers there would say, Hey, these are the client
1087
00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:45,160
projects that we're working on.
1088
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:46,880
Will you design a mock up?
1089
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:51,960
And if it's good enough, we'll present it to the client, but if it's not no harm, no
1090
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,600
foul, we're continuing to do our work, but you'll get a critique on it.
1091
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,840
And so I would design websites that would sit in their critique meetings.
1092
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,200
They would tell me what worked and what didn't work with the site design.
1093
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,600
And not many got through to the client, but a few did.
1094
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,360
And it really just elevated my work.
1095
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:14,440
So I really got on the job training and just professional feedback as a, you know, 17 or
1096
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:15,840
18 at the time.
1097
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,080
So just an amazing opportunity.
1098
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:19,080
Yeah.
1099
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,360
So when I went to college, I wanted to do animation.
1100
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,120
I really thought that I wanted to go work at Disney and do 3D animation stuff.
1101
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:30,960
So I picked a school that had kind of that program.
1102
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:32,200
I wanted to go to a university.
1103
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,560
I didn't want to go to an art school.
1104
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:38,200
And so the classes were very limited, but I took a lot of elective art.
1105
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:43,520
I took several electives in computer science and took a few and web development.
1106
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,440
What was funny is at that time, I knew more than my teachers did.
1107
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:47,440
No!
1108
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:48,760
So it was a very strict system.
1109
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,840
Sitting there when they're instructing and I'm sitting there thinking, that's not the
1110
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:52,960
way to do it now.
1111
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:54,920
Like we're past that.
1112
00:52:54,920 --> 00:53:00,640
And so I would help my fellow students with the things that they were struggling with.
1113
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:08,900
And so the great part about that was when I left the agency to go back to school, I
1114
00:53:08,900 --> 00:53:12,320
got to the point where I had done so much work over the summer that they had to hire
1115
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,160
somebody during the year to fill my spot.
1116
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,600
And they hired a girl that they were not crazy about.
1117
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,000
They didn't like her.
1118
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,680
So six months in, like I came home for Christmas.
1119
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:23,680
I mean, I wasn't far away.
1120
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:24,680
It was like 45 minutes away.
1121
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:29,920
I came home at Christmas and they said, we're going to let this girl go.
1122
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:34,360
We want you to come back and basically remote work before it was a thing.
1123
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:38,720
Like we want you to let you work from Christmas during the year and you just come in and work
1124
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:39,720
on Fridays.
1125
00:53:39,720 --> 00:53:43,520
So that's what I did the rest of my college experience was I continued to work with this
1126
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:49,320
company and gain experience and do design work and mockups and things like that.
1127
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:54,720
So just kind of doing this hybrid work from home, work from the office thing.
1128
00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:56,720
So that was the start.
1129
00:53:56,720 --> 00:53:58,920
And I just, I loved web design and development.
1130
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:03,640
Even though at school I was learning video and animation and graphic, I still just wanted
1131
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:05,680
to stay in the web world.
1132
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,760
And the cool part about what I do now is a lot of that merged.
1133
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,320
I have experience in editing videos.
1134
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:16,920
I have experiencing graphics and motion graphics and all those things, but all those things
1135
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:20,520
can all live together where the web is right now.
1136
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,000
Oh my gosh, that is so beautiful.
1137
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:24,000
Okay.
1138
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,640
So I like, I chuckled a little bit when you were talking about knowing more than your instructor
1139
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:31,320
is because so one of my first jobs that I had outside of freelancing.
1140
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,040
So I taught myself how to code freelance for a while.
1141
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:37,200
Did a lot of Jumla projects, a lot of like Drupal open source, PHP type of stuff.
1142
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:38,640
And then got my first job.
1143
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,520
It was actually a product company, oddly enough in my like podunk small town area, which was
1144
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,720
like shocking that it happened.
1145
00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:49,800
When I interviewed for that job, we were talking about it and the CEO was asking me questions
1146
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,920
and he's like, so wait a minute, you wouldn't use tables to do this.
1147
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,320
And I was like, no, what tables are like very old school.
1148
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,760
And so when I explained to him like how I felt about dibs and like, you know, blah,
1149
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:03,560
blah, blah, and like the, like I got the job because I told him that tables were old school,
1150
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:04,880
like after the fact.
1151
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:06,840
And so it was awesome.
1152
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,120
But the funny thing was, is that that was in like, I don't even know what year that
1153
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:11,480
was, but let's just like fast forward.
1154
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:17,640
I think probably two or probably three years, if I had to guess, I enrolled in a software
1155
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,680
engineering program because I had dropped out of college two times at that point in
1156
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:21,680
time.
1157
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:22,680
One first time was criminal justice.
1158
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:24,680
Second time was business management.
1159
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,360
And I was just, I'm just not a college person is what I realized, but I was like, I'm going
1160
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:29,360
to try this again.
1161
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:30,360
I want a degree.
1162
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:31,360
I want to prove that I have a degree.
1163
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:32,360
I want to prove that I have my skills.
1164
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:36,600
Got a contract job at a huge agency in Minneapolis, Space 150, if anyone's heard of it.
1165
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,200
And when I realized that I was like, okay, I've clearly made it as a dev.
1166
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:40,280
I don't need to go to college.
1167
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:44,760
So I did end up dropping out, but in the class, that same exact thing happened.
1168
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,560
The professor was teaching building websites and tables.
1169
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,160
And I was literally like, why are we building websites and tables?
1170
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:51,840
This is the old school way to do things.
1171
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:53,280
And he was like, guys, it's not the old school.
1172
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:54,920
And he like did not like my pushback.
1173
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:56,960
And so I'm like, this is not for me.
1174
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:01,880
I do not need to pay to have someone teach me how to do something in an archaic way.
1175
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:06,560
So I just laughed because tables really played in stupidly into my early career.
1176
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:08,280
Of like, yes, that was the beginning.
1177
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:12,280
But then as soon as we learned divs, it was like tables were out and it oddly played
1178
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:13,760
into my career quite a bit.
1179
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:14,760
Yes.
1180
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:15,760
Yeah.
1181
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:22,160
Well, I feel like I'm mostly self taught or on a job taught because that's where majority,
1182
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,640
at least the foundation of my knowledge is.
1183
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,080
But my degree is radio TV broadcasting.
1184
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:29,080
Very different.
1185
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:30,080
Well, not very different.
1186
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:31,080
It's kind of adjacent.
1187
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:36,520
But, you know, I think for people that are trying to decide, do I go to college?
1188
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:37,520
Do I not?
1189
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:39,040
You know, some of it depends.
1190
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:40,880
Are you a college person or not?
1191
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:45,320
But there, the main thing, at least that my dad always told me when I was going to school
1192
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:47,720
was you're learning to learn.
1193
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:50,760
And I think that's important regardless of what you're doing in tech.
1194
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:52,680
You have to be able to learn new technologies.
1195
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:57,240
You have to be able to pivot and stay up to date on everything that's changing.
1196
00:56:57,240 --> 00:56:58,240
Yep.
1197
00:56:58,240 --> 00:56:59,240
Yep.
1198
00:56:59,240 --> 00:57:00,240
I absolutely agree.
1199
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:01,240
I am the hands on learner.
1200
00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:06,000
You just throw me to the wolves and I like learned best under pressure where some people
1201
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:07,000
that is not right.
1202
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,880
They need to have that sort of foundation before they get into that pressure state.
1203
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:11,880
Okay.
1204
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:13,600
Two minutes left before we'll wrap up.
1205
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:17,280
Because I do have a hard stop at 11 my time.
1206
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:18,440
How do you get unstuck?
1207
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,160
This is one question I like to ask everyone.
1208
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:23,520
So if you are stuck on either code or maybe it's something else, I know you alluded to
1209
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:25,120
AI and that example.
1210
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:29,920
But what sort of your mindset and tactics you like to take to get unstuck?
1211
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:30,920
Yeah.
1212
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:36,920
So I would say there's kind of two things maybe, let's see, my family gives me a hard
1213
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:38,920
time because I'm like, I always have two points.
1214
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:42,720
Whatever it is, there's always two points.
1215
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,080
Some of it I think is just going back to your workflow.
1216
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:49,960
So you're saying like, I am a hands on person, throw me a problem, but you have a path that
1217
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:51,280
you know this works for me.
1218
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:52,920
This is how I learned things.
1219
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:57,320
And so when I'm designing something and I get stuck, I know this is the path that I
1220
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:58,320
have.
1221
00:57:58,320 --> 00:57:59,320
I'll work on a mood board.
1222
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:03,040
I will go to other websites that I find inspirational.
1223
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:04,440
I'll start collecting things.
1224
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,240
I'll have that input and then use that as a filter.
1225
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:12,920
There's a process here that I've developed over time and how coding problems, just take
1226
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:14,920
it one step at a time, break it down.
1227
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:16,680
So I think that's one thing.
1228
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:20,800
And I think that's one thing that separates seniors from juniors is a senior person has
1229
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:23,400
enough experience that they know this is how I solve problems.
1230
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:24,400
This is my work.
1231
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:25,400
Yeah.
1232
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:26,400
Exactly.
1233
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:30,600
And that is good at that is walk away.
1234
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,440
I'm not good at that.
1235
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:38,640
So hard to just hit what I call the snooze button, the developer snooze button where
1236
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:40,320
it's like, could just give me five more minutes.
1237
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:41,320
I'm almost there.
1238
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:42,320
Five more minutes.
1239
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:43,320
Yes.
1240
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:44,320
Yes.
1241
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:48,880
There's been so many times there's like, if I will just walk away when I come back,
1242
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,120
it's like, how in the world did I miss that problem?
1243
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:58,280
Just to my colon or an uppercase letter, how long did I spend on that?
1244
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:04,040
But anyways, that's been huge for me is giving myself permission to walk away.
1245
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:05,040
I love that.
1246
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:08,280
That has been honestly the most common answer.
1247
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:10,400
And I think that you are 100% right.
1248
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,200
I tend to do the snooze thing too.
1249
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:16,160
And I think that sometimes we just need to walk away, either go to bed because it's nighttime
1250
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,760
and you just have to walk away or it's like, go do something else.
1251
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,360
Or Ducky, where you explain it to someone else, that's like the tactic.
1252
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,560
I'll go to my husband and he knows nothing about technology or anything related to the
1253
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:26,560
field.
1254
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:27,560
He was in telecom.
1255
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,080
That's as close as he gets with fiber and networking.
1256
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:33,840
And I'm just, I'll even just say it and he's like, okay, okay, but did you know, like,
1257
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:37,560
and he'll just entertain my questions, but it's as I'm explaining it, it's like, boom,
1258
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:38,560
I got it.
1259
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:39,560
He's like, okay, bye.
1260
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:40,560
Good talk.
1261
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:41,560
So I love it.
1262
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:42,560
Yeah, exactly.
1263
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,560
I love it too.
1264
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:47,640
This has been such a lovely conversation.
1265
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:51,280
We definitely need to, Arvind suggested that we do a live coding stream together.
1266
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:53,600
I think that would be really, really fun.
1267
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:59,920
My technical chops need to be sort of refined again and sort of, you know, I'm diving back
1268
00:59:59,920 --> 01:00:02,800
into like being more deep in the code.
1269
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:04,440
And so I think it would be really fun for us to do that.
1270
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,160
So if you're open for that, let's, yeah, let's do it.
1271
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:08,160
I love it.
1272
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:09,160
Okay.
1273
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:10,800
Well, future events, we will live code together.
1274
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:15,760
Arvind will bring you into, you are just such a good advocate for us.
1275
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,360
We're using women in code and all the beautiful projects we're working on tonight.
1276
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:20,360
And reach out to me, direct message me.
1277
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:21,360
Yeah, absolutely.
1278
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:22,360
Okay.
1279
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,720
So on that note, before we wrap up quick, I know it's the one minute after, but final
1280
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:27,080
thing, where can folks find you?
1281
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:30,440
So they can reach out to you, learn about, learn about all the projects you're building,
1282
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,080
learn about Redwood, all the cool stuff that you do.
1283
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:34,080
Yeah.
1284
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:37,120
So I'm self-teach me on most platforms.
1285
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,360
And if you go to build12.com, there's a newsletter there.
1286
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,040
So you'll see information about the project.
1287
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:47,920
We'll get information about each month's announcement, part-time startup, all the things.
1288
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:49,040
I love that so much.
1289
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:50,560
I think I need to actually subscribe to that.
1290
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:52,920
So I will be over there subscribing soon.
1291
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:53,920
Fabulous.
1292
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:57,440
Well, I will put all those places in the show notes so folks can find Amy.
1293
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:01,480
Thank you so much for spending a good chunk, an hour of your day with me.
1294
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,000
It has been absolutely amazing.
1295
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,240
And this conversation has been so great.
1296
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:06,240
Awesome.
1297
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:07,240
Yeah, it's easy peasy.
1298
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:08,240
I know, right?
1299
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,840
It's, we just talk shop, which is like fun.
1300
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:11,840
Yes.
1301
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:12,840
Yes.
1302
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:13,840
Okay.
1303
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,640
Well, I hope everyone has a fabulous rest of their day.
1304
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,000
Tomorrow, my guest is Tejas.
1305
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:23,640
If anyone hasn't met Tejas Kumar, he is a lovely human being.
1306
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:28,040
So amazing human today, amazing human tomorrow, and pretty much amazing humans every single
1307
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:29,040
day.
1308
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,040
So I look forward to seeing everyone tomorrow.
1309
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,600
And yeah, reach out to Amy.
1310
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:34,600
Bye folks.
1311
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:35,600
Have a great day.
1312
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:45,600
Bye.