Why We Avoid Difficult Conversations

WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.520
There's that roomy quote, isn't there?
00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:05.200
Out beyond right and wrong, there's a field, I will meet you there.
00:00:05.519 --> 00:00:12.400
And even by saying, Well, look, we both work for the same organisation, we're both involved in the same project, we're both looking after the same customer.
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:15.759
You know, you've already not got 100% disagreement.
00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:18.480
When did you last avoid a difficult conversation?
00:00:18.719 --> 00:00:25.199
85% of employees have to deal with conflict at work, and the number of hours that people spend dealing with it.
00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:32.399
There's been some research done a few years ago that just in the UK alone, workplace conflict costs nearly 30 billion pounds a year.
00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:34.320
It's a really, really big deal.
00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:40.000
So welcome to Why We Avoid Difficult Conversations, episode one in this series.
00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:51.119
This is living, leading, communicating, and collaborating with intention and impact with 4D human being.
00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:59.039
And recording on Garage Band.
00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:00.799
Right, you behave now.
00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:01.920
That's the dog.
00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:04.000
He's getting a little feisty.
00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:04.799
Which one?
00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:06.079
The ginger one.
00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:07.680
The feisty ginger.
00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:08.640
I've got the opposite.
00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:10.480
I've got a sleeping donut.
00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:16.159
I was just out for a dog walk and I met a really nice friend of mine.
00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:19.920
She's got a little dog called Boo, who's like a mini version of Bear.
00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:23.040
And we were sort of saying how nice they recognise each other, blah blah blah.
00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:28.079
And I said, yes, mine's like a slightly more curly, chubby version of your dog.
00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:31.920
Expecting her to say, no no no, what do you mean?
00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:33.599
She didn't agree.
00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:35.519
She did she just went, oh.
00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:47.840
Well that's like that is the danger of putting forth a kind of humble version, hoping the other person will refute it, because sometimes they don't.
00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:49.519
They really don't, Phil.
00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:52.959
And I looked at him and I thought, oh, although fair enough.
00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:55.200
Did you throw your dog under the bus?
00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:57.439
I literally did throw him under the bus.
00:01:58.159 --> 00:01:59.760
I'm sort of glad he can't understand me.
00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:10.240
Although the other thing I said to her was, my daughter is studying A-level psychology and they're doing this comparison of sort of the consciousness, the awareness of animals versus humans.
00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:13.520
I think animals are aware of more than we think.
00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:16.000
So he might have understood the comment.
00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:17.039
I think you're right.
00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:18.560
Take a note to treats.
00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:20.479
And can we do a segue there?
00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:22.560
A double segue.
00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:32.080
One is, because we're talking about difficult conversations, and one is if you think there's a bit of tension or atmosphere in the relationship.
00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:34.479
Do you know what an ex-boyfriend taught me this years ago?
00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:38.080
He said to me, Philippa, if you feel it, I feel it.
00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:41.680
When you think, when you think, I'm not gonna say anything, they won't notice, they notice.
00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:42.159
They do.
00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:45.039
The other person knows if there's a difficult conversation to have.
00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:48.400
And my other super segue, Laura, wrapped me up a double here.
00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:06.319
Of course, the thing about dogs is as much as they might have a high awareness, never have to have a difficult conversation with them.
00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:08.400
No, they don't care, Phil.
00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:11.439
Very forgiving.
00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:14.000
Very instantly.
00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:19.439
I mean, even if they're aware, the memory length seems to be short.
00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:22.000
If there's a snack, I think all is forgiven.
00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:22.319
Yeah.
00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:22.879
Easier.
00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:23.680
Gotta love them.
00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:24.400
Gotta love them.
00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:27.039
Well, we could all learn something from that, Phil, to be honest.
00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:28.879
I mean, let it go down the river.
00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:29.840
Totally.
00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:37.280
The pain that we have from carrying those conversations, or the or the thought of having those conversations in our heads.
00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:38.800
And dogs don't.
00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:41.759
They're like, oh look, there's a they're all like there's a tree.
00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:42.879
There's a squirrel.
00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:44.400
Exactly.
00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:47.680
Even saying squirrel, mine's now barking.
00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:52.240
So we are in a full parter loving this.
00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:55.120
Well, it's sort of a celebration, Phil, isn't it, of the big launch.
00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:57.120
It's a celebration.
00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:01.680
Il Grando Launcho of the new 4D on demand series.
00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:05.439
It's the one that everyone has been waiting for.
00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:08.560
Managing difficult conversations.
00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:14.479
And it is jammo-packed with tools and content.
00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:19.680
We haven't just gone right, you know, walk into a room and say this.
00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:23.199
My dog is having a difficult conversation with me.
00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:30.720
It's got so much in terms of your own self-management and having those great conversations, building up that courage.
00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:35.519
And also all of those games that we play, understanding what's really happening.
00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:39.199
It's got that psychology piece, but explained really simply and easily.
00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:42.399
So you can understand what game am I trying to get out of here?
00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:44.079
Is it that I don't have boundaries?
00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:45.519
Is there a drama triangle?
00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:47.439
Are there power games going on?
00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:49.920
Before we even get to how do I start this.
00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:51.839
And then what different choices do I have?
00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:52.879
What different choices do I make?
00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:55.600
The language I use, my own ego response, the delivery.
00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:56.720
It is Jammo packed.
00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:59.279
And it's and also how do I cascade this as a leader?
00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:04.639
How do you know if jammo pack translates into piano?
00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:06.560
Absolutely like full.
00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:11.519
And also as a as a not not piano diano di marmalada, marmalada.
00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:19.839
And it's also how do you create a culture that's safe?
00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:20.720
Totally.
00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:23.439
You know, as a leader, how do you cascade this?
00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:30.639
So we're gonna look at four sections, so four areas in these next four podcasts.
00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:39.439
And I really do want to emphasize that if you want all of this all of the content, because we can only touch on some of the topics, you can get it.
00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:40.399
It's a big one, Phil.
00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:41.279
It's a big one.
00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:48.720
If we as a human race could master managing difficult conversations, well, what a different world we would live in.
00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:52.319
I don't even know where to start with that at the moment, with what's going on in the world.
00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:52.800
I don't know.
00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:54.240
I mean So it's a big one.
00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:55.279
It's a huge one.
00:05:55.439 --> 00:06:00.399
And let me talk through the three topics because I immediately jump to our third topic, which is environment.
00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:10.800
And we, you know, we even talk about how our parliament is set up, you know, that adversarial opposite we call it the opposition, like two sides set up.
00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:15.439
Even the way that you set up a room is going to dictate the kind of conversation you have.
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:16.800
So there's just so much in there.
00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:40.639
We have the free level essentials, which will be um coming very, very soon in the next few weeks, and already uploaded to the site, brand new, hot off the press, is our is the full series Managing Difficult Conversations, which either as a business lead, HR, L and D, um owning, you know, wherever you are, whatever scale of business you've got, that is available for individuals and teams within your org.
00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:42.319
Or as an individual, click and buy.
00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:43.519
Or you can click and buy it.
00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:45.759
Uh, if you've got a smaller or solopreneur.
00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:53.199
We have done a little bit of sort of market competitor research, which is not something we generally do because we feel we have quite a unique offering.
00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:56.079
But there's not, there's nothing out there like it, Phil.
00:06:56.319 --> 00:06:59.519
We have got a unique platform and a unique offer.
00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:16.319
So anybody looking for anything around their impact, managing difficult conversations, presenting, really building their profile and rep reputation, any of those kind of soft communication skills that you want as an individual or for your organization, we have got the platform with everything on it.
00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:20.800
And it's not e-learning, my fellow, my fellow four deers.
00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:22.879
It's not Phil, it's you.
00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:24.720
I mean, it's fabulous you.
00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:27.360
It's really super fun and engaging.
00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.720
So yeah, it's not, don't even use the word e-learning, actually.
00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:37.199
I mean, e-learning sort of sort of says, you know, trawling through slides online or something, doesn't it?
00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:44.399
No, it's video, it's engaging, it's funny, it's got animation and cartoons and exercises, and it's just super, super, super.
00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:46.399
Anyway, we'll stop the sale.
00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:48.480
Let's talk about managing difficult conversations.
00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:55.920
So the first thing to say is the four podcasts that we're going to do are going to cover four areas.
00:07:56.160 --> 00:08:00.480
In the actual series, you've got 12 modules.
00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:01.519
It's a lot.
00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:07.680
But in this series, we are going to look at in this first podcast.
00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:09.279
This is a big one, actually.
00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:10.800
Which we always say that.
00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:11.439
We always say that.
00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:12.160
I know, we always say that.
00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:16.240
And I was I was looking at the list thinking, well, today's my favourite, but I'm going to say that about the others as well.
00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:19.759
This first one, we don't often talk about it.
00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:27.439
We talk about managing difficult conversations from the moment the conversation starts, whereas we're sort of we're pulling back from that.
00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:33.120
So this first one is very much about why we avoid them, why we don't step into them.
00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:56.639
And I'm going to include in why we avoid them, not just for those of us who literally don't answer the phone or try and avoid the person, but actually why we avoid having the conversation can also be we go to anger or defence, we go, we go to a version of an interaction that is not having sorry, that's my Humphrey dog.
00:08:56.879 --> 00:08:59.279
Um, that is not actually having the conversation.
00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:02.240
So that attack is also avoiding having the conversation.
00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:05.039
Shush, be quiet, or you'll have to go out of the office.
00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:06.000
Right, there you go.
00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:07.519
Difficult conversation done.
00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:10.639
And the second one, so the second episode is the beginning.
00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:12.639
So this is about opening well.
00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:26.399
Uh, it's very interesting how perhaps in terms of how we sort of psyched ourselves up or the the sort of narrative we hold about the other person or people, um, we may not always step in to the initial start of the conversation exactly.
00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:27.519
So we'll talk about that.
00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:29.279
And also it's that whole thing, isn't it?
00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:39.039
Of you know, if you start well, if you if you invite someone to a conversation well, or you open, you know, you've the first, you know that thing where we took joke about in couples?
00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:40.799
I've got an issue I need to talk to you about.
00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:47.440
The way that you say it and when you say it, is it's it's already set it up, hasn't it?
00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:50.159
Uh can I see you in my office at four o'clock?
00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:50.879
Yes, exactly.
00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:52.960
Even the tone.
00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:59.600
I I just got a voicemail from my solicitor and uh and it said, Oh, Philippa, could you know, could you give me a ring?
00:09:59.919 --> 00:10:04.799
From the tone! I thought, oh no, what you actually wasn't at all, but you have to have to be very careful.
00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:07.039
Okay, all about intention, 4D.
00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:09.840
Episode three, setting the scene.
00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:12.559
And this is all about the environment.
00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:15.360
How you can use exactly as you say, can you come to my office?
00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:19.519
Bing! Uh, you let's let's catch up in the cafe, very different.
00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:26.480
So setting the scene, and then number four is I think this is probably we're sort of opening with the big one and closing with the big one, aren't we?
00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:33.600
Because episode four is turning down the heat, and one of the biggest things which sort of answers number one, why do we avoid the conversation?
00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:37.360
It will be answered and done will be dealt with in number four as well, yeah.
00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:44.320
Of turning down that heat, because of course what we're frightened about is our own and the other person's emotional response.
00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:49.600
Yes, I have some very good examples of that, so I'll try and hold off until episode four for those.
00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:56.240
And it's such a wonderful thing, isn't it, when you know that you've got even and it doesn't, you know, it still can be difficult when nobody wants to upset other people.
00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:57.039
Well, most people.
00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:02.240
For the fact I I I think the exception to that rule this week has been my electricity and gas supply.
00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:05.360
Well, you did what you did want to upset them.
00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:09.840
Well, only because they've upset me so terrible.
00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:15.360
Feel I'm allowed to have one exception, and it's usually a utility company where I I am not my best self.
00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:21.679
Well, I I I did say to our colleague Matt Giselle, who's dealing with an airline to try to use a voucher, which which was driving him insane.
00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:23.679
He that the heat definitely got turned up.
00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:31.679
And I did say, you know, we we have to remember in all of this that, and and this is coming from us who does who do this work all the time.
00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.120
The reason we do this work all the time is because we know how human we are.
00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:41.600
And that we, you know, as as a very, very dear person in my life said to me, and I carry it, I want it on a t-shirt.
00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:49.919
Sainthood is hard, you know, not we're we're this is not aiming for some sort of saintly, you know, I can always do it perfectly.
00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:52.000
But it's it's closing the gap, isn't it?
00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:53.600
It's stepping towards let's hope.
00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:56.960
Well, it's in well, it's empowering, feel is I think is I think the main thing.
00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:58.879
It's um nice word pen.
00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:10.399
It's it's making us feel like we we we can hold these things, we can manage and there isn't a fallout, both in terms of the relationship, but also in terms of how we feel about ourselves.
00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:11.840
What we're left with, yeah.
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:12.159
Yeah.
00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:13.200
Absolutely.
00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:13.759
Okay.
00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:17.759
So have a think now, in this opening episode.
00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:19.360
When did you last avoid?
00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:21.200
So this is the listener, not you, Pen.
00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:24.799
I th I I can hear that you didn't avoid a conversation with your utilities.
00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:28.799
So, listeners, when did you there were there were capital letters?
00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:30.159
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:35.679
And probably probably they were hearing capital letters coming out of your mouth as you were talking.
00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:37.679
I'm even kissing my podcast microphone.
00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.200
Um when did you last avoid a difficult conversation?
00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:45.840
I'm gonna say at work, but this is also, of course, very useful for our personal lives as well.
00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:49.679
And you might be right in the middle of avoiding one right now.
00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:55.279
And it might be the email that you've opened and closed, or not, or actually not opened, let's be clear.
00:12:55.519 --> 00:13:07.200
Um, the colleague that you've been very politely walking past or avoiding, or the thing everyone in your team knows or feels, like I said earlier, they're feeling it, but nobody's saying it out loud for various reasons.
00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:13.200
So, welcome to Why We Avoid Difficult Conversations, episode one in this series.
00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:16.799
And this really, what do we mean by difficult conversation?
00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:18.000
Well, it can be anything, can't it?
00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:22.960
It can be that knot you feel in your stomach when something you don't even can't even name what's happened.
00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:36.399
It might be around giving feedback, it might be disagreeing with your boss or a colleague, raising a problem with a peer, telling somebody that their work isn't good enough, you know, uh, the thing that's been bothering you for months, the unspoken thing in the team.
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:40.720
And the most important thing to say here conflict is normal.
00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:42.639
You know, it's so funny, isn't it?
00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:46.960
It's like it's there, and we we somehow think it shouldn't be.
00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:51.840
We think we think that we've got to get back to a place where no where there isn't any conflict.
00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:58.000
I think the real starting place of you know, why do we avoid it is to normalize it.
00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:02.879
Actually, it what would we have to be if there were no if there was no conflict?
00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:07.039
We'd have to sort of be like clones or like machines or something.
00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:16.000
Yeah, and it's not it's not healthy, is it, in terms of our progression as human beings, creativity, yeah, if we're all living in some kind of plateau.
00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:28.799
And also it's not it's not useful also in terms of our moral compass as a society because you know it it evolves over time, and we we have to disagree on things in order for things to to change and move forward.
00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:32.399
So it is necessary, it's how we approach it.
00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:42.480
I would just say one thing on avoiding difficult conversations, which is I think this is something that I've thought a lot about through my life, both as a leader and and now as a coach.
00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:45.200
And I would say for me, there's a couple of things.
00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:52.960
So one is definitely the avoiding the conversations that need to be have, and we'll talk about why that is and the skill set and all of those kind of things.
00:14:53.200 --> 00:15:09.519
I think the other the other side of this, which is possibly more in our personal lives, is perhaps getting better, getting more skilled at knowing when we really don't need to step into a difficult conversation.
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:10.879
That's such a good point.
00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:25.039
And I think perhaps, I mean, I speak for myself, perhaps when I was younger, I would be much more likely to respond quite quickly to the emotions that I felt, thinking, well, that's how I feel, and you know, I need to say this and this isn't fair, or whatever it might be.
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:29.840
And I think that that has tempered as I've got older, particularly with those people I love the most.
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:36.080
And so I do, I do sometimes hold that question in the back of my head is this really a conversation I need to have?
00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:36.799
First question.
00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:40.080
And secondly, exactly as you said, Phil, is this the right time to have it?
00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:45.360
So, you know, if I think about teenagers, yeah, really good example.
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:47.200
Are we thinking about teenagers?
00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:54.879
Yeah, you know, you could possibly live in difficult conversations quite quite a lot with teenagers.
00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:56.720
And I'm sure lots of people feel that.
00:15:57.039 --> 00:15:57.120
Sure.
00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:00.559
And I think you can pick your pick your battles, isn't it?
00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:12.240
Pick your battles and pick your moments, because actually there might be a conversation to be had around respect or what what we do around here, but it might not be in the moment when the teenager's kicking off.
00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:33.759
Also, also, you you you you bring something up here, and I it's making me think of both you know day-to-day life and and as a therapist, that actually there is a really good skill set there to sort of build on what you say, that there are so many moments in a therapy session that you don't grab and because you can't pick at every scab, you can't pick at every wound.
00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:46.720
You've got you know you're just choosing, and sometimes it's just about releasing, and it's making me think that you know, if you have that situation at work and somebody kind of, I don't know, says something offhand or has a go about somebody else.
00:16:47.600 --> 00:17:03.519
Like you say, we want to build a culture of safety and trust and the ability to we'll talk a bit, you know, a bit later about being able to repair, but we don't want to create a culture of sort of puritan, you know, puritanism where you can't say anything without somebody saying, right, well, I think we need to talk about that.
00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:09.200
That that actually we are human and sometimes we do just need to, you know, storm out and take five minutes.
00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:21.119
And and actually, you know, so part of this is talking to our own ability to sometimes just let something be, that we don't have to take everything personally.
00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:31.599
So I think that's a really, really good point before we go into you know, we become the person that everyone goes, Oh gosh, no, you'll have to have a difficult conversation with them because that's always where it ends up.
00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:33.200
You can't say anything smells.
00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:40.319
Okay, let's ask this qu let's ask this question, Fed, because uh this was asked to me years ago when I first started this work.
00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:43.359
Think of the difficult person in your life.
00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:47.279
Now, whose difficult person are you?
00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:53.440
I mean, you don't have to answer it, but it's an interesting possibly the same person, possibly the same person.
00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:57.359
But I feel much clearer on that now, you know.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:05.039
It's just just the ability to acknowledge, actually, then there are these things that I know must be really annoying.
00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:07.599
And and I just want to give a little caveat to that.
00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:14.880
First, because I think it's a really useful exercise, but not so that you beat yourself up, just so that we allow that it's happening.
00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:16.799
It this is a two-way street, you know.
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:24.640
Yeah, that just to release yourself from being on some sort of podium of righteousness where someone else is really difficult.
00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:31.680
But the bit I would add to it is they don't have to love that part of you or that annoying part of you, but you do.
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:38.640
So definitely have that self-compassion, but just the acknowledgement that actually you might be difficult too.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:40.400
I don't know what you mean, Phil.
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:41.519
Honestly, I can't.
00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:43.599
Nothing is difficult to think about.
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:45.599
Yeah.
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:58.000
Okay, so but a nice exercise with this is if you think about somebody that you're in a bit of a difficult moment with or difficult situation, take a moment and list all the things that you have in common.
00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:03.119
Just as a starting point, just so that you've got, you know, there's that roomy quote, isn't there?
00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:07.200
You know, out beyond right and wrong, there's a field, I will meet you there.
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:15.279
And meaning, let's create a space where we're beyond right and wrong, where we can meet on on ground where we can have that conversation.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:27.440
And even by saying, Well, look, we both work for the same organisation, we're both involved in the same project, we're both looking after the same customer, we both really like working with Bob, you know, you you've already not got a hundred percent disagreement.
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:29.680
So that's a really nice exercise to start with.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:31.359
Yeah, couldn't agree more.
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:36.880
So we're gonna talk about why it matters to have these conversations.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:45.119
Yeah, and I think you know, for for some of us, there may be a fear of conflict, like it might be something that we want to avoid.
00:19:45.200 --> 00:20:03.519
And we, you know, we can talk about sort of family dynamics when we're young and the the the attitudes and the beliefs we have around conflict, but it really does matter because we know that you know 85% of employees have to deal with conflict at work and the number of hours that people spend dealing with it.
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:11.440
And when I see statistics like that, first of all, I really I really it really sort of pains me because I really know how that feels.
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:34.960
And secondly, I really think about the sort of the skill sets involved in dealing with that versus the time that appears to be taken up dealing with it, you know, and I hear anecdotally lots of lots of stories around disagreements and conflict and the amount of time that it takes, and you're really wondering is the actual conversation that's needed being being had, you know, is that time being being well spent?
00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:39.920
So it is important, and in terms of the cost to businesses, it's absolutely enormous.
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:47.200
There's been some research done a few years ago that just in the UK alone, workplace conflict costs nearly 30 billion pounds a year.
00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:59.839
So it's it's a it's a lot, and you know, we that probably doesn't even take into account the kind of the turnover, the retention problem, the mental health, mental health, all of those kind of things.
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:02.799
So it's a it's a really, really big deal.
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:22.079
So it is worth thinking about, yeah, and it certainly is worth skilling up your employees and your leaders to be able to identify and to be able to step into it in a really healthy way, you will save an enormous amount of time and um and an impact on your business performance as well, so and your culture.
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:30.559
So it is it is hugely important, and we avoid this, some of us, uh both in the workplace and in our in our personal lives as well.
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:32.000
So it's hugely important.
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.279
Yeah, and there's a kind of you know, a couple of things to add to that.
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:44.160
Um, a quote from us here at 4D is being nice protects the moment, being kind protects the relationship, that really knowing that difference.
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:51.200
And also looking about um both groupthink and Lencioni's work on trust.
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:57.839
If you've got everybody agreeing all the time, creatively and innovatively you've got groupthink, so you're definitely not having breakthroughs.
00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.759
I mean, you know, there's a reason we call organizations.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:03.920
Teams and people, disruptors, it comes with the territory.
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:08.640
That you want those people, you want that friction in the creative process.
00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:15.200
And also, as Patrick Lencioni talks about, if you can't have healthy conflict, you don't have trust.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:16.880
Well, you've got artificial harmony, haven't you?
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:20.640
Where everyone says everyone everyone says yes, yes, I'm gonna do that, yes, yes, I agree.
00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:22.319
And then of course, of course, they don't underneath.
00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:28.000
And then nobody will take accountability for anything because they didn't really agree to it in in reality.
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:29.359
Well, that's right, and it becomes more important.
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:30.480
It just starts crumbling.
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:33.440
It just starts crumbling, it becomes more important not to argue than to do a good job.
00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:35.599
I mean, yeah, that that's really what happened.
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:55.920
So I love this phrase.
00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.120
So we're gonna talk about sort of why we avoid these fears and patterns.
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:01.359
This was a game changer for me.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:04.480
You're not afraid for the reason that you think you are.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:05.680
Disgust.
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:06.480
Yes.
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.079
And this really is about that fight or flight response.
00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:15.120
So we go into fight, gotta win at all costs, flight, get away from it, avoid.
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:16.480
These are all avoidances, by the way.
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:20.319
Freeze, head down, literally, you know, I'll often say to people, are you breathing?
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:21.920
Like the system just stops breathing.
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:26.559
Or the fawning, which is just be nice to them, please them, placate them.
00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:29.039
We all learn this as children.
00:23:29.120 --> 00:23:41.680
We learn these are our adaptive selves, we learn how to uh retain harmony as children, we learn how to stay connected with our caregivers, how to stay uh keep them attentive to us, stay feel safe, feel protected, feel loved.
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:43.359
And we did what we needed to do.
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:49.200
And of course, what we know is that these patterns, our nervous system still has the same response.
00:23:49.359 --> 00:24:00.240
And that phrase, you're not afraid for the reason that you think you are, is a just a I think a really good circuit breaker in that response.
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:09.839
You know, let's say a you know, a colleague is annoyed with you or, you know, sent you a bit of a you know, a direct email, and your nervous system has gone into one of these four.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:13.680
I've got to make them feel better, I'm completely frozen, I can't move, I don't know what to do.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:16.559
Um, I I'm gonna avoid them, or I'm right, I'm going out.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:18.640
I've got to go I've got to go in and win.
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:28.160
Your nervous system has had a response, and that will be a learnt response from whatever's happened in your past that helped you survive.
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:30.000
And I just think that's so important to know.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:36.319
I agree because otherwise we we cannot break free if we don't understand historically, and it was useful for you.
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:39.279
This is not to denigrate it or to criticize it.
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:45.839
You know, if fighting to win is what helped you survive, your that adaptive self has helped you.
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:50.400
It's when it's it's how we carry it through into our into our present day.
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:51.039
That's right.
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:56.799
And and you know, particularly in conflict, conflict is is one of the things that is very likely to trigger the nervous system.
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:05.759
So we're gonna we're gonna go into that sort of autopilot survival mode where the system just kicks in and behaves in the in the way that it's learnt to behave.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:18.319
What I find so I mean, sort of sad about it really, you know, once you really think about this, is that of course we learnt those automatic responses and survival mechanisms when we were kids.
00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:20.079
And even pre-verbal, baby.
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:21.359
Even pre-verbal.
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:33.920
And, you know, of course we didn't have language skills, communication structures around challenge and conflict when we were like three years old, when we had no power, we had no control.
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:38.079
So all of these things have been learnt when we we had no power, no skills to deal with it.
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:38.720
That's right.
00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:47.680
And if we don't kind of raise our awareness and consciousness and skill up on these things later in life, that's the only fallback system we've got to deal with conflict.
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:48.400
Exactly right.
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:51.920
And you can really understand why then we avoid it.
00:25:52.079 --> 00:26:08.000
And I for me, one of the biggest sort of eye-openers when when you know I first sort of started learning and thinking about this was yes, yes, the nervous system kicks in, yes, we go into autopilot, yes, we go into often, not always, but often unhelpful sort of pattern responses.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:19.759
And we tell ourselves, I think, I'm gonna avoid this conversation, firstly because I don't want to feel like that, secondly, because I don't know what they're gonna say, I don't know what they're gonna do.
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:37.920
Yes, and I sort of burrowed beneath that, and what what I always think about and what I say to clients when I'm working with challenging conversations, yes, and below that is the fear that you will not know how to respond to whatever comes at you.
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:50.960
So very often when we avoid conversations, it the reality is that it's probably unlikely, particularly in the workplace, that someone is actually going to start screaming and shouting and sort of punch us.
00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:56.640
It's more that we are we are nervous or or worried that we won't know how to respond to whatever.
00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:59.680
Yeah, how we'll feel about their feelings, exactly.
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:04.559
Yeah, and how skillful we will feel, because we'll go back to that sort of powerless, powerless child.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:11.039
You know, if we are skilled up, which we'll talk about in the next episodes, it sort of doesn't matter what anybody does.
00:27:11.120 --> 00:27:14.559
If you've got the skills to deal with it, exactly won't feel you need to avoid it.
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:18.240
Well, and when you say it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter in terms of the sort of reality.
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:22.640
So therefore, the thing you're left with is to manage your uh your your younger response.
00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:30.319
And it really takes me back to it brings me to one of our kind of core, you know, we have those two phrases, are you happening to the world or is the world happening to you?
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:31.680
And always a choice.
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:39.039
And the thing about our younger response is we didn't have the choice to leave the house and set up on our own and get a job at five years old.
00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:44.559
Like we had to find adaptive ways to survive, or make it clear to the parent that they were in the wrong way, right?
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:45.440
Yeah, exactly.
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:48.240
And have a rational conversation with someone who wasn't.
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:52.319
I mean, it's just it's it's you know, it's you wasn't an option most of the time, well, nearly all the time.
00:27:52.480 --> 00:28:04.079
But what what what I find I what I find can happen, and I know you hear this as well, is so often I'll hear adults and often in very senior positions saying, I haven't got any choice.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:15.279
So, you know, or or phrases like that, or there's nothing I can do, or and actually that again, that's a really good indicator that those feelings have kicked in with because it feels like you're cordon and you haven't got a choice.
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:20.000
Of course, we do as adults, and I know it doesn't always feel like that, but we do.
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:32.240
I want to talk about so just I'd add to that, your boss is not your parent, and that's probably a really just a really good touchstone, and you'll find lots on that in the managing difficult conversations and the 40 on demand.
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:32.880
Yeah, all of this.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:34.319
And a really important piece.
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:45.680
Yeah, and the other one is there's a just the most wonderful piece of work or kind of thread that runs through therapy, which is called rupture and repair.
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:59.200
And it's a it's a real encourager, actually, as a therapist or even as uh and as a coach to not avoid rupture because it's in the repair that you actually build trust.
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:01.279
And and we I just don't think we're taught that.
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:06.799
We're we're taught that you know, often we're taught that conflict is bad or difficult or you know, leads to you know breakups.
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:14.640
Whereas, of course, repair is the very thing that is signalling to both parties we can we can move through this.
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:20.000
This relationship is so strong, is strong enough that we can tolerate disagreement.
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:22.799
And that is that is so valuable.
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:31.839
So it's almost it's not just getting to a neutral place of oh, let's see if we can have the conversation, it's really understanding it's a bet, you know, the win, you know, the game.
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:32.480
Totally.
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:39.279
And I I, you know, I would sort of, if it's useful to anybody, I would sort of personalize this and think about it like this.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:53.359
So those people that you love most in the world, do you ever want them to be in a position where they feel too frightened to say what they feel or something that's upsetting or hurting them?
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:56.880
Do you want, you know, would you ever want them to be in a situation where they feel too frightened to do that?
00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:58.720
Well, I'm gonna guess the answer is no.
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:00.799
You'd want them to speak their truth and you hope so.
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:02.000
You'd hope so.
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:08.960
And in order for us to be able to do that, we all have to learn this process of rupture and repair.
00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:18.000
We have we have to understand that we can have amazing, close, fantastic relationships with people that can be ruptured because we know that they can be repaired.
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:21.440
And if we don't learn that lesson, Phil, it's like Chandler in Friends, isn't it?
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:26.640
The first argument, it's all it all must be over because I haven't learned that you can repair relationships.
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:28.720
Jesus, what are you talking about?
00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:29.680
We're not breaking up.
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:32.160
Welcome to an adult relationship, you know.
00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:33.039
Exactly.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:33.680
Exactly.
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:35.759
So it's a really important lesson to learn.
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:40.400
And some people, some people, some kids will really have learnt that well from their caregivers.
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:45.359
You know, they will have learned I can get angry, and then that there's a repair process.
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:55.920
Some kids won't have learned that so well, and then that becomes challenging in in um when we're adults because we will avoid stepping into conflict because we haven't learned that relationships can be repaired.
00:30:56.079 --> 00:31:08.319
And this is what I love about this series because of all our experience through various uh, you know, leadership development, you know, storytelling and acting, psychotherapy, coaching, all of that psychology, positive psychology, neuroscience.
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:10.799
We've brought so much in and made it really applicable.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:17.920
And what you're talking to is Bowlby's attachment theory and um uh Mary Maines and Mary Ainsworth as well, the work they did on it.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:26.880
Bring the women in there, but attachment theory that you might have had a secure attachment whereby you've understood that this relationship can hold rupture, can hold conflict.
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:31.680
But you might not have done, you might have an insecure attachment, an avoidant or a um what we call preoccupied.
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:39.200
And that's all in the you know, uh without going into too much detail around it, we put that in there so that you really understand what patterns are playing out for you.
00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:39.440
Yeah.
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:48.720
Because just to add to what you say, we're sort of slightly going off a tangent here, but it's really important because we're talking now about you having the conversation, being able to step into the conversation.
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:51.120
But of course, we have to go both ways.
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:59.759
We have to be able to sit with and absorb someone coming towards us to have the conversation, and that's part of the skill set.
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:05.279
It's not just about giving out the you know criticism, it's about being able to take it.
00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:06.720
It's totally eyes, isn't it?
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:12.000
And I guess we could spend hours just on this whole concept of attachment theory and rupture and repair.
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:28.720
I guess one thing I would say to leaders, particularly if you're if you haven't heard of this concept, is if you think about your teams and trying to deal with conflict or even trying to sort of encourage people to have those difficult conversations, then maybe think in those two terms.
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:38.480
Rupture meaning, yes, let's let's bring the difficult issues onto the table, and making sure that that second piece is in place that is the repair.
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:53.519
It could be as simple as, you know, everyone having a cup of tea or a slice of gray or it's it's it's an opportunity for the even if the issue hasn't been resolved, the repair piece is an opportunity for the relationship to sort of re-establish itself in a healthy way.
00:32:53.839 --> 00:32:54.160
100%.
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:55.279
I that you know, we've got to be.
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:02.559
It's the repair bid, exactly, Penn.
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:05.120
And sometimes, I'm going to go back to what you said at the beginning.
00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:13.120
Sometimes, particularly if it's a repeated thing where maybe you've even had the conversation before and it's just it's an irritation that keeps coming up.
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:15.279
Sometimes we don't need to have the conversation.
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:18.720
Sometimes we can skip to, shall I put the kettle on?
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.000
Or, you know, I've bought I've bought the biscuit, should we take a coffee break?
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:25.279
And sometimes that's enough to say we both recognise what's happening here.
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:26.079
Exactly.
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:36.960
Um, I I want to just mention 4D in this because we're talking really throughout this, I mean, all of the work we do, but you know, that fourth dimension, the intention.
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:39.120
Intention is not about perfection.
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:52.480
That sometimes it's, you know, I want to have this conversation, you know, I you maybe you even acknowledge, I don't know if I'm, you know, it might be clumsy, it might not be perfect, but my intention absolutely is, you know, to find a way forward for us to work more collaboratively.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:56.960
And that we've got a whole module on managing difficult conversations in four dimensions.
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:16.400
And it's really the key piece here is really recognising that so many of us let emotions drive the bus when we're talking about difficult conversations or difficult situations or breaks in relationships, and all of this, and particularly because emotions get so heated in rupture, it's coming back to intention.
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:27.919
I'm feeling a lot of heat, my nervous system is triggered, I feel absolutely so frustrated or so angry, and my intention, my fourth dimension is different, is this.
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:40.159
So just want to really bang the 4D drum, and that's why having a framework, having a model that runs through all of our work is so important because you can just really simplify it and bring it back to what's actually happening here in four dimensions.
00:34:40.319 --> 00:34:41.679
Let's get back to intention.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:50.000
Penn, let's move to the next section and give some of these tools and tips of how can we start to do it differently?
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:56.159
How can we start to frame for ourselves that before we even have the conversation?
00:34:56.319 --> 00:35:00.079
How can we get ourselves into a different place to even be able to?
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:04.559
Well, the first thing that's quite useful is a little bit of self-analysis.
00:35:04.799 --> 00:35:06.159
So maybe some people have to do that.
00:35:06.319 --> 00:35:08.879
And I've noticed you say a little bit, just a little.
00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:12.719
Some people have had some therapy or some coaching and they may have dived into this.
00:35:12.799 --> 00:35:15.759
And some of us, some of us feel like I don't really want to go there.
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:18.879
So just a little bit of gentle uh self-analysis.
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:43.199
It's really it is really useful to do this, and I'll I'll tell you what one of the reasons why is if if we are avoidant of conflict, or even if we want to step into conflict, if we don't do any of that self-analysis, it's likely that we will tend to think it's the other person, you know, it's them, they have done this, they have done that, whatever it might be.
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:52.079
If we can do a little bit of self-analysis, we can just start to balance out a little bit what might be going on here.
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:59.119
So, you know, one of the things I very often hear in with clients in the workplace is, you know, why didn't they pick up the phone to me?
00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:01.439
You know, they didn't they didn't pick up the phone to me.
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:09.119
And I I think again, just thinking about what's going on for them, but what's also going on for me, why didn't I pick up the phone?
00:36:09.279 --> 00:36:19.359
So, really, the first tool is to really think about just maybe even just three tiny little tiny little sentence starters for that self-analysis.
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:27.759
So, and they are when I hear the word conflict, I dot dot dot, just notice what comes up for you.
00:36:28.319 --> 00:36:30.959
This is quite a good one as well, if you want to go there.
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:36.879
When when there was conflict in my family when I was young, dot dot dot, what was that like?
00:36:36.959 --> 00:36:37.919
How was that dealt with?
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:42.239
What was your uh way of dealing with that or c or family culture?
00:36:42.399 --> 00:36:46.879
Yeah, and when there's conflict, what I feel in my body is dot dot dot dot dot.
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.519
So it's really just noticing when you say that.
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:56.319
Yeah, it's really noticing uh what your relationship is with conflict, and there's no wrong or right about it.
00:36:56.399 --> 00:37:00.079
As we've just been saying, you were very young when you would first experience conflict.
00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:06.639
It's you're very likely you'll go into one of those four kind of nervous system survival responses, fight, flight, freeze, or fawn.
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:07.919
Very normal.
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:19.119
It's good to recognise which one of which one of those is your kind of default, because then it will be helpful for you to then think about well, what tools and steps am I going to take to perhaps break that pattern sometimes.
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:21.039
So that's a sort of a little bit of self-analysis.
00:37:21.439 --> 00:37:22.959
And I think I love that last one.
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:24.799
What I feel in my body is.
00:37:24.879 --> 00:37:41.359
And actually, sometimes bringing that emotional reaction down to a physical, bodily response, and just for a moment removing all the narrative or maybe the assumptions-that's another obviously module in this um in our 40 OD series, is all of the assumptions that we're making.
00:37:41.439 --> 00:37:42.719
Like you said, why are they picking up the phone?
00:37:42.799 --> 00:37:45.359
Why are they is just to come to the body reaction.
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:51.839
Oh, my chest is tightening, my breathing's gone a bit, and actually sit really simplify it.
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:55.839
That really, what you've got emotion, energy in motion, that's what's going on.
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:01.199
If I just remove the uh the dialogue, the kind of narrative in my head, love that.
00:38:01.839 --> 00:38:05.039
Okay, because you can actually start to breathe differently.
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:08.159
You can't fix the problems at the moment, but you can breathe differently.
00:38:08.879 --> 00:38:10.639
State, state, state.
00:38:10.799 --> 00:38:11.839
Okay, number two.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:13.599
This is that question that I love.
00:38:13.839 --> 00:38:16.639
What am I really afraid of?
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:29.919
And a good question here when something gets under your skin and you're annoyed or frustrated or upset, but you're avoiding the conversation, or you want to go in for the fight.
00:38:30.959 --> 00:38:47.519
In this situation, I am afraid of either looking maybe it's weak or stupid or unkind or out of control, or I'm worried that they might think that I am X, Y, or Z, and this is our ego going into its protection.
00:38:47.759 --> 00:38:53.439
I must, I must not upset anybody, or I must not look weak, or I must not look stupid.
00:38:53.759 --> 00:39:03.599
Because actually, what it does is it takes it away from this isn't really about the fact that they've skipped the deadline, it's about the fact that I don't want to look incompetent.
00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:05.199
That's really what's going on here.
00:39:05.279 --> 00:39:15.439
So that's a really useful one to understand before I pick up the sword of the deadline problem and start you know swinging it around.
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:21.359
Actually, I really, really feel so devastated that the client might think I'm incompetent.
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:33.519
That's really what's going on, and you're just now balancing out what's really happening, and you're making that firstly that conversation with yourself, but potentially the conversation much more human.
00:39:33.839 --> 00:39:34.079
Yeah.
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:36.399
So, what's really going on here?
00:39:36.479 --> 00:39:37.839
What are you really afraid of?
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:49.519
You know, I'm afraid that if I say anything in the in the team meeting that I'll be ostracised, I'll be left out, I'll, you know, the the the the team will will will yeah, will kind of disconnect from me.
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:50.959
What am I really afraid of?
00:39:51.279 --> 00:39:55.359
And maybe that's something that might be useful even in the conversation, you can name it.
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:56.239
Very good.
00:39:56.399 --> 00:39:57.599
Uh dial it 10%.
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:03.119
Um, so it might surprise anyone to hear that we don't change lifelong patterns overnight.
00:40:03.359 --> 00:40:04.479
If if we did, Phil.
00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:05.279
If only.
00:40:05.439 --> 00:40:05.759
I do.
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:15.439
Do you know how often I say to people when they say, you know, I had uh somebody very recently as we were finishing uh some work together, how does how does it really work, therapy?
00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:21.839
And um, and we were talking about the fact that of course, if we could just change it overnight and read a book, we'd all do that.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:22.639
Yeah, we would.
00:40:22.799 --> 00:40:25.279
We'd just read we'd just read the article and it would be done.
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:27.839
And we'd walk into work the next day, and yeah, but we can't.
00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:28.799
We'll be very different.
00:40:28.959 --> 00:40:29.519
It's tough, yeah.
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:41.199
Um so even if it feels like I had to have five difficult conversations last week, and I came out of all of them kind of feeling really upset, and I really I didn't feel I'd got where I wanted to get to.
00:40:41.279 --> 00:40:46.319
Even if it feels like that, what's what's kind of 10% that you could shift?
00:40:46.479 --> 00:40:54.239
So just a tiny shift in either your thinking, your choices, your language, anything at all.
00:40:54.479 --> 00:40:58.559
Just one tiny shift, because we can't change everything overnight.
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:04.719
I mean, I I had a really interesting sort of incident the other day that involved um a couple of cars.
00:41:04.799 --> 00:41:06.239
I'll I'll leave it like that.
00:41:06.479 --> 00:41:13.199
Anyway, the per the other person was um was definitely sort of um somewhere in their nervous system, let's say.
00:41:13.279 --> 00:41:13.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:13.839 --> 00:41:19.839
And I think in in years gone by, I would definitely have had one of those four responses.
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:24.319
Like I would have either sort of frozen or would have gone in for the fight, or I would have tried to placate them.
00:41:24.479 --> 00:41:24.639
Yeah.
00:41:24.799 --> 00:41:26.159
I did none of those things.
00:41:26.399 --> 00:41:34.799
And listen, that, you know, there's years of work, and this was one incident in, you know, I wasn't so great with my gas and gas and electricity supply.
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:43.439
So all I'm saying is don't think that you suddenly have to become this sort of perfect person that confidently strides into skillful, difficult conversations.
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:45.599
Just think about a 10% change.
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:52.319
So if you have some patterns around avoidance, what's one tiny thing you could do that might just start shifting?
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:57.839
And if we can share, if that's okay, because I've I suspect anybody listening will think, oh, well, what did you do?
00:41:57.919 --> 00:42:04.719
That your your 10% change was to help regulate the other person, 100%.
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:08.319
Was to just very gently say, Are you, is everything okay?
00:42:08.479 --> 00:42:14.639
Even though they were being quite forthright, let's say, with you, and and and and they'd gone into fight.
00:42:14.799 --> 00:42:25.839
Actually, the 10% change wasn't, you weren't what what you didn't do was the sort of what we might call the 100%, oh, let's have this, you know, structured, difficult conversation.
00:42:25.919 --> 00:42:28.239
Let me tell you what I'm finding difficult about what you're doing.
00:42:28.319 --> 00:42:30.159
And then you that wasn't what happened.
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:43.039
What you did was the 10%, which was just to calm the energy, to the heat out, which is as I said, was one of these modules in in this series, which is just so important because you cannot have a conversation until you've taken the heat out.
00:42:43.279 --> 00:42:43.679
Totally.
00:42:43.759 --> 00:42:47.199
And the outcome may or may not have been any different.
00:42:47.279 --> 00:42:49.199
Uh you know, who know who knows?
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:59.039
But for me, it was a really interesting opportunity to just very slightly change one of the patterns that would would otherwise potentially have kicked in in a stressful situation.
00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:03.199
So almost sort of treat it, treat the world as a bit of a kind of training ground.
00:43:03.359 --> 00:43:04.159
Yeah, like a laboratory.
00:43:04.399 --> 00:43:06.479
Oh, I wonder, I wonder if I could try this.
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:14.239
And it does also lead on to the next point, the next tool, which I think is absolutely critical in terms of avoiding.
00:43:14.959 --> 00:43:16.319
Just to say, just to say on that last thing.
00:43:16.399 --> 00:43:21.279
So you a good question is all right, I don't really like working with this person or they're annoying me at the moment.
00:43:21.359 --> 00:43:24.079
But what would 10% more collaboration look like?
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:30.239
And that doesn't mean you know you're going off to have lunch and you want to go on holiday with them, but 10% more collaboration.
00:43:30.479 --> 00:43:34.000
It might be I'm gonna pick up the phone once a week instead of always communicating on email.
00:43:34.319 --> 00:43:37.679
I'm gonna give them a bit more time, I'm gonna give them a bit more data, exactly.
00:43:37.839 --> 00:43:41.759
What would 10% more openness in this relationship be like?
00:43:41.839 --> 00:43:42.719
Exactly.
00:43:43.279 --> 00:43:44.159
Number four.
00:43:44.319 --> 00:43:47.119
I think this is the big reason we don't step in.
00:43:47.359 --> 00:43:48.399
I think you're right.
00:43:48.559 --> 00:43:49.199
Yeah.
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:53.919
Escape, the I'm right, you're wrong polarity trap.
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:54.319
Do you know?
00:43:54.399 --> 00:44:02.079
I had this conversation with a client and we were talking about confidence, so sort of confidence and self-belief in the workplace.
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:07.839
And the very first comment that came up, it was in a group, was I might not convince them that I'm right.
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:12.399
And I yes, that's what we so often hold, isn't it, when we go into those conversations.
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:13.039
100%.
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:18.639
And our brains love certainty, so in conflict, we go into the extremes very Fast.
00:44:18.959 --> 00:44:23.359
Our brains love certainty and we love to be right because it well because it's certain, isn't it?
00:44:23.439 --> 00:44:24.239
It's very clear.
00:44:24.399 --> 00:44:26.479
I'm right, they're wrong, and it's such a trap.
00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:32.639
And we go, of course, we only see what's right about our position, and we see what's wrong with theirs.
00:44:32.799 --> 00:44:39.439
I love this phrase that came up recently, which is positions divide, interests unite, and we've got to get underneath.
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:52.239
And this I've I we we put a module quite late in the day, we put an extra module, an extra video into one of the modules in this managing difficult conversation series around polarity thinking because it's so it comes up so much.
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:54.000
I'm right there wrong.
00:44:54.319 --> 00:44:59.199
We see what we're right about, and we can only see what they're wrong about, and we need to get beyond that.
00:44:59.279 --> 00:45:02.000
And so there's two questions you can ask to do that.
00:45:02.479 --> 00:45:06.239
What might be right or useful if you don't want to use that language?
00:45:06.319 --> 00:45:07.599
Sometimes that language isn't helpful.
00:45:07.759 --> 00:45:12.799
What might be useful or helpful or interesting or valid about their idea?
00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:14.479
Or their or their behaviour.
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:15.599
Or their behaviour.
00:45:15.839 --> 00:45:25.199
And then the other question is what might be wrong or risky or difficult or impossible or less popular about mine?
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:29.679
And it moves us from that polarity thinking of either or to both and.
00:45:29.839 --> 00:45:34.879
And we're not looking to create a winner out of this, we're looking to integrate.
00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:40.479
Because from there, we can kind of see, you know, we an example, you know, you and I have come up with an idea.
00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:42.239
I want to just kind of let's just go for it.
00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:43.199
Fairly typical.
00:45:43.279 --> 00:45:46.319
And you might say, well, let's just look at the risky, and I'm like, ah, it's too slow, it's too slow.
00:45:46.399 --> 00:45:47.599
I'm right, let's move, let's move.
00:45:47.759 --> 00:45:53.199
But as soon as we go, okay, what's what's what might be right about Penelope Siggy?
00:45:53.439 --> 00:46:01.119
Well, a bit more market research and actually, you know, just getting this, getting the scaffolding right would put us in a much better position in the future.
00:46:01.359 --> 00:46:04.000
What might be wrong or risky about mine?
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:12.799
Well, you know, we we can end up having to redo and completely rework something, and even though it's quick, it doesn't actually end up being that quick.
00:46:12.879 --> 00:46:13.759
Whatever it might be.
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:16.799
So it's a really, really useful tool.
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:19.359
What might be good about useful about their idea?
00:46:19.439 --> 00:46:20.719
What might be wrong or risky about me?
00:46:20.959 --> 00:46:30.559
And I and I think, you know, one of the phrases that I quite like sometimes at the beginning of these conversations, which is a good intention to hold before you go in, is we're not going to solve this today.
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:35.199
And as soon as you hear that, you kind of think, ah, it's a discussion.
00:46:35.439 --> 00:46:38.159
There's an invitation here for me to still hold my position.
00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:41.599
This isn't someone's going to be sort of battered until they can't.
00:46:41.839 --> 00:46:42.239
Exactly.
00:46:42.479 --> 00:46:42.799
Exactly.
00:46:42.879 --> 00:46:48.799
And if I and if I stick with that example, we can still hold that I like to move quickly, let's say.
00:46:48.879 --> 00:46:50.799
I mean, this is just you know, these are made-up examples.
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:54.319
You know, I I I you know, they I I have an impatience.
00:46:54.639 --> 00:47:01.119
And what one or two pieces can we put in that would be tolerable and actually be really big wins?
00:47:01.279 --> 00:47:04.879
I mean, and and no one's having to lose their identity over it.
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:08.879
But you've opened it up through that non-polarity thinking.
00:47:09.359 --> 00:47:10.000
Very good.
00:47:10.159 --> 00:47:12.000
Number five, make it safe to disagree.
00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:15.359
Now, this really does go into um psychological safety.
00:47:15.439 --> 00:47:22.719
And actually, this is this is almost like the foundation beneath the foundation of being able to deal with conflict in the workplace.
00:47:22.959 --> 00:47:32.399
Because if people don't feel like they can disagree with anybody, then you've really created a culture of conflict, conflict avoidance.
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:40.239
So it has to be safe, and this kind of goes back to what we said earlier about creating that space that allows rupture but also allows for repair.
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:47.839
So, what can we put in place really tangibly that makes people feel like it's gonna be okay if I don't agree?
00:47:47.919 --> 00:47:54.719
So, for example, we're gonna take 20 minutes now, and uh, I'm gonna ask the question who disagrees?
00:47:54.799 --> 00:47:56.639
Who sees this differently?
00:47:56.879 --> 00:48:00.079
Um, leave a long silence, let people speak.
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:08.079
And it's not about solving, it's about this is a space for people who who disagree, and it's not personal, it's not I think Bob's an idiot.
00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:10.799
It's it's it's we're not out loud anyway.
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:11.599
Not out loud.
00:48:11.919 --> 00:48:14.239
It's that I have a different opinion to this.
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:23.679
And I think again with this one, particularly with this one, it doesn't mean that at the end of 20 minutes we've all got to reach a consensus.
00:48:23.839 --> 00:48:26.159
It's just I'm gonna share my opinion on it.
00:48:26.319 --> 00:48:42.479
Well, you know what you're you know, uh what one of our fabulous tools that uh everybody should do really is spiral dynamics, and we're really talking from that shift from green to yellow, and you could kind of track conflict in an organization or a team through these spirals.
00:48:42.879 --> 00:48:46.159
And blue ends up being um, you know, right and wrong.
00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:52.000
Yeah, orange ends up being the I don't care if people get you know thrown off the cliff, I'm gonna win.
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:53.199
We're gonna get that result.
00:48:53.439 --> 00:48:54.319
Gonna get that result.
00:48:54.479 --> 00:48:56.719
Green is we've all got to get to consensus.
00:48:56.879 --> 00:48:58.959
Everybody has to agree before we can move forward.
00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:02.479
Oh my god, we'll never don't upset, don't upset, don't upset anybody.
00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:09.599
And this we see a lot of this at the moment in kind of um in various business cultures where it's all about nice rather than being kind.
00:49:09.759 --> 00:49:16.000
That leap to yellow systems thinking is everybody come on, in we go, pitch in, disrupt, tell us what you think.
00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:18.559
We're we you this this system can hold it.
00:49:18.799 --> 00:49:21.759
And as a systems leader, we're gonna go with this.
00:49:22.399 --> 00:49:24.079
We're gonna go with this and we're gonna move forward.
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:32.319
And I know, Bob, I know you're not on board, Bob, that you know, find the areas that work for you, or you're gonna work on this section, and that's gonna make the whole system work much better.
00:49:32.399 --> 00:49:35.599
So it's systems thinking a more sophisticated way of thinking about this.
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:37.519
It's not just a difficult conversation.
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:41.359
So, quick five scenarios just to think about before we move on.
00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:45.599
My manager makes decisions without asking the team, and I just go along with it.
00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:47.439
Use the 10%er, dial it up.
00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:48.000
What 10%?
00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:51.439
Can you ask one question in your next meeting?
00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:55.039
Before we make this decision, can I share another view?
00:49:55.519 --> 00:49:56.239
Really gentle.
00:49:56.319 --> 00:49:57.439
That's a 10%er.
00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:01.359
That's not going in with right, I never get to say what I want to say.
00:50:01.439 --> 00:50:03.039
It's just, can I share something?
00:50:03.199 --> 00:50:04.479
Can I share another view?
00:50:04.719 --> 00:50:09.119
Another situation: a colleague and I keep clashing over a project, starts to feel personal.
00:50:09.359 --> 00:50:11.199
Ask yourself whose difficult person are you?
00:50:11.359 --> 00:50:12.879
Why might you be difficult for them?
00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:14.559
And make a list of those.
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:16.079
And then do the polarity.
00:50:16.159 --> 00:50:16.399
Yeah.
00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:17.519
Do the polarity.
00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:18.879
What's right about their idea?
00:50:18.959 --> 00:50:19.519
What's it?
00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:21.119
Or even do it with them.
00:50:21.359 --> 00:50:22.159
Even do it with them.
00:50:22.319 --> 00:50:26.959
Like, okay, give me two things you love about my idea, and then you give them two things you like.
00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:31.279
I mean, that in itself create a very different atmosphere.
00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:31.919
Exactly.
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:37.359
That in itself, exactly, really laying that groundwork for you know what this whole podcast episode is about.
00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:41.599
Just shifting all of those dynamics so that difficult conversations don't Do you know what?
00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:45.839
Eventually they're not even difficult conversations, they're just part of the working relationship.
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:53.439
Uh, last scenario: my team never disagrees in meetings, everybody just nods, and this is that artificial harmony that you talked about.
00:50:53.759 --> 00:50:56.639
Ask that question: Who sees this differently?
00:50:56.799 --> 00:50:58.399
That was our um fifth tip there.
00:50:58.559 --> 00:50:59.919
Who sees this differently?
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:01.439
And pause.
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:05.679
You're giving yourself the challenger role, you're just opening it up.
00:51:05.919 --> 00:51:17.199
You could even you could even sort of dial this up even more explicitly, where in in a different, in a different meeting each week, a different person in the team is given the disruptor, the challenger, the maverick role.
00:51:17.439 --> 00:51:23.759
Even if they are the least likely person, and you you you need to change it, it can't always be the same person because that will create problems.
00:51:23.919 --> 00:51:27.599
And they have 10 minutes to challenge disrupt and take the opposing point of view.
00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:28.959
It's a game, it's gamifying it.
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.000
But it may well bring some conflict to the surface that other people feel they can't bring.
00:51:34.159 --> 00:51:34.479
Exactly.
00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:40.079
And another way to do that is to say everybody has to say one thing that they don't like about this.
00:51:40.159 --> 00:51:51.919
And honestly, even if you're 100% on board with the idea, but you don't like the biscuits that were bought, you know, it's just a it's just a way of making everybody take enter into that culture.
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:56.719
Okay, so your challenge this week is to catch yourself once.
00:51:56.879 --> 00:52:08.239
Notice one time when you've slipped into a pattern that might be around that fight or flight response, the um wanting to win, wanting to avoid, wanting to please the other person or freezing.
00:52:08.399 --> 00:52:20.959
Um, notice when you've got into a you know repeated pattern with somebody else, when you say yes when you mean no, when um you know you're trying to win or you're or you go quiet, you don't have to fix it.
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:26.559
You don't have to fix the whole project, problem, or culture of the organization.
00:52:26.799 --> 00:52:30.000
You just have to make a small choice that's going to shift that pattern.
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:31.199
That's all we're talking about.
00:52:31.439 --> 00:52:41.199
And you know, very simply, if you are avoiding a difficult conversation, just have in your mind can I separate out the issue and the person?
00:52:41.359 --> 00:52:43.679
Can I separate out the task and the relationship?
00:52:43.919 --> 00:52:55.599
And whilst I may not want to step into a difficult conversation about the issue, the task, or I feel I won't win it, or whatever it might be, can I do something that is going to ensure that the relationship stays happy?
00:52:55.759 --> 00:52:56.159
Absolutely.
00:52:56.239 --> 00:52:59.839
And can I also split out the issue and my own response to it?
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:00.399
Exactly.
00:53:00.479 --> 00:53:01.439
Yeah, great.
00:53:01.759 --> 00:53:07.759
The teams that achieve extraordinary success are not the ones who never disagree.
00:53:07.919 --> 00:53:10.639
They are the ones who have learned to disagree well.
00:53:10.799 --> 00:53:14.879
And that is what the Managing Difficult Conversations series is all about.
00:53:14.959 --> 00:53:17.199
That's on 40 on demand, just as a reminder.
00:53:17.359 --> 00:53:20.239
And there'll be the Essentials free series coming soon.
00:53:20.319 --> 00:53:25.359
We'll have plenty more uh opportunities to talk about this because this was episode one of four.
00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:41.039
And next episode, episode two, is opening well, how to start that difficult conversation so you've got every chance that it's gonna go well, how to name the issue without blame and without kind of fudging it, sort of, you know, sort of saying it but not saying it, so no one's really clear.
00:53:41.199 --> 00:53:43.199
So that's what we're gonna look at in the next series.
00:53:43.279 --> 00:53:52.879
In the meantime, you can check out on 4D on demand at 4dhumanbeing.com, go to 4D on demand and you can check out the new series along with all of the other 4D on demand series.
00:53:52.959 --> 00:53:55.919
And if you're interested for your organization, get in touch.
00:53:56.079 --> 00:53:58.000
Info at 4dhumanbeing.com.
00:53:58.079 --> 00:54:00.159
Give us a cool go well.
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:04.000
And um, yeah, I'm not I'm not gonna say step into the conflict.
00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:09.679
I'm gonna say um just analyse and notice how you feel about that word.