SE1E94 - From Dial-Up Belarus to 350 Engineers | Andrei Yurkevich

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Hello, and welcome back to the forty percent Better podcast,
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where we talk about all things leadership, specifically in the
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technology world. And Andre has graciously accept our invitation to
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join us today and talk a bit about his leadership journey.
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Welcome to the show. Yeah, hi deal, thanks for having me.
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Yeah, of course, of course.
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So the first question that I ask, and really this
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is the only scripted question that I have, is how
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did you get started in leadership?
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Like?
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What was you know?
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Was this like a something that started when you were
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a kid, you know, or you got tossed into it
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when you were folder like that?
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How'd that all play out?
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Yeah? A good question.
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I think I can answer this question for hours, but
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I will give you a short version. So I guess
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it started in two thousand and two. Non I would,
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I would say it's it's an official official star date.
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I imagine a remote country Belarus, ten million populations, ten
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years after Soviety union collapse, a guy twenty five years
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old and thinking about what to do with his life.
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And I had a friend who lived the United States,
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and they reached out to him, why don't we build
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software outstuff in business? I read about it now the
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other day, and yeah, we proposed to him, why and
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why don't we do that? So imagine again two thousand
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and two, all this political situation, two years after dot
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com crash. Now the country internet speed is less than
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a one hundred kilobit per second for the whole country,
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for the whole country, Yeah it's not my my home
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is like two hundred megabits right now, But back then
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the whole country was with the line less than one
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hundred kilobit. Yeah, it's it's essentially the capacity of a
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Madame Di aalt modem that.
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We already had.
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Back then, people don't speak English that much, so engineers
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don't speak don't speak English. Now venture capital is something
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unheard of, and yeah, we started the business. So our
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on our side was that we had good engineering school
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and still have good good engineering school is new European
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training software developers starting since seventies, and had research institutes
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that reverse engineered ABM machines ABM operating systems. So yeah,
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that kind of talent, and yeah, we joined the forces
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and build a company.
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Called al Toros. Nice. Moving forward now five.
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Years later, are now we have more than one hundred developers,
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ten million in revenue, profitable, growing, not without drama, but.
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Yeah, thinking about what now, what we do next? And
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what's next?
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The two thousand and eight it's it's a world crisis
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and we're thinking, okay, how how do we survive?
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What is it then?
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Existential threat or it's something that will pass and go?
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So what does it mean to us in our business?
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Uh?
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And as you know, you you should never waste a
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good crisis, right, and you you think, what's.
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What do we do.
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We do right?
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What do you do not right?
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What happens if half of our customers just leave next month?
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So now those type of conversations longevity of the business
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model and out of out of this exercise about a
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year later, when it does settle down a little bit,
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we thought that the model that we're operating in working
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primarily with startups now with software companies, has its limitations,
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has its ceiling, and.
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Let's try to get to enterprise.
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So if with our current customers were able to charge
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like fifty dollars an hours, seventy dollars an hour, probably
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with the enterprise we will be able to charge one, fifty,
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two hundred whatever, right, depending on the specialization. So we
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started to play with with this technology. That technology it
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was exciting time, cloud computing, big data, horizontal scalability, all
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these things. So yeah, I'm probably answering a different question
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right now speaking about the journey and what I'm doing
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to do and to continue or.
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Well it gives a content, right so that other so
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that you know, the audience can go, oh okay, got it.
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You know, I understand. You know, it's unusual because I think.
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I think you've all the people that I've interviewed, you're
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you've been at the same company the longest, because I
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don't think I don't think I've talked with anybody else
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who's been at their current company for.
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More than ten.
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Years, and most of them it's way less than that,
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And so that it's it's a very different kind of
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a dynamic, right, How big are you guys?
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Now?
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Oh?
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Yeah, actually that is that is at the second part
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of the story. I wouldn't say that, uh, that's uh
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we are at the same company because even during the
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first five years, nah piwoed it like three times and
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the company that was started in in the Belarus apartment,
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uh I was was radically different five years and even
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two years later when we had more people n and
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one more One more funny thing is that when we
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were sitting in this apartment, we had we had these
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big moneyors and during our growth, now the technology shift happens,
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so we were shifting too, tel CITs nah, yeah, all
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these things, moving offices, moving people and building culture. So
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I think the first five years were the most the
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most intense in terms of the stories to tell and
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lessons learned and all this stuff. But as a toold
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we started to look into enterprise technology, started to turn
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to Chase is a different type of customers. I then
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moved to the United States, to California and try to
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build local team. No, so that's that's another company. So
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that's a that's another there's a different product, not different
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products actually, and we at some point we we've seen
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our technological experiment as a separate business. So we had
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we had our previous stuff augmentation business NA. But when,
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for instance, you start working with the I in twenty fifteen,
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now sailing into a mess list too, ad phizors of
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of the world, and then it's a it's a different
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a different business, different company. So right now what what
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our your brought and brought us in it's a spin
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off from all tours which is called proti Fire and
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proto fire is focused on a Web three market and
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Web three adoption.
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And several years.
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Ago we realized what Venture Studio is about, and thinking
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about who we are, how we work now, we decided, okay,
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well probably venture Studio because because we had the main business,
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and we had multiple span offs from from this business.
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So proto fire is a spin off from from all
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tours and now we have several several products now that
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were span off from proto Fio itself. So and there
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are separate companies that we uh that we incubeate accelerate
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and for which we in a race capital.
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Now, that's interesting that you're doing companies as spin offs
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and you've done what sounds like spinoffs from a spinoff,
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which is which is interesting. So how do you manage that?
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Like because it's people, you know, Like, how do you
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manage the people and are your involvement with them? Like
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do you just turn them loose and say fly be free?
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Or like how does that work?
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Yeah? Good question? Nah, good question. So on.
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Even before COVID, now we had multiplications and well we
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had a bunch of people who worked remotely, so we
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had we had the office in Sunny Wale, California, in
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the Bay Area. Now we had the office and means
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Belarus the biggest one. We also had two offices in
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Argentina physical offices, but started actually Argentinians started to work
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remote first and when COVID hits, so everybody is remote.
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And after that we decided, okay, whatever we are in
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Web three and there is a lack of talent and
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there is no one single points on the map where
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we'll be able to do to hire engineers who are
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questioniately interested and skilled, so we decided, yeah, let's go
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full remote. So right now we have people I think
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in like twenty five countries and no single workers. So
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so so everything is remote, so that there is then
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there is one thing and another concept. Another concept is
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that we want to be as light as possible. So
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every every team, every business have their own leadership, cup table,
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P and L and in center structure. Interesting, yeah, so
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one of one of the values and the corner storms
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the stones.
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Of the fire.
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What we build is that everybody's shareholder. So everything that
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we're building now everybody has has a big slice or
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small slice of ownership in everything. So for instance, how
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people operation teams. Now people are operation team team members.
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They have.
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Half a percent and all the businesses to create whatever
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I don't remember the number, but along those lines in
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somebody who's working specifically with this business and is committed
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to work with this business to drive it, to add it,
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to represent it, to take risks. Now now they may
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have up to twenty twenty five percent and those businesses.
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So so we do.
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Budget allocation, We set up the structure, the scaffolding. We
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also run the sort of back office where we'll have
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where we'll have finance, marketing, people, operations, and legal now
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that serve all the branches, and every business is focused
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on their own delivery, product management and customer acquisition.
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Interesting, what what made you guys decide to go with
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a model like that?
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Like what was the thought process that because a lot
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of companies would have just said, oh, this is we're
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going to keep it in house, this is the whatever
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division you know, Like you know, Apple has an iPhone
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division and a laptop division and a division for in
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house silicon. Like, how come you guys spun off different businesses?
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What was the what was the thought process?
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Yeah, so.
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One of the businesses that that we were building around
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ten years ago.
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It was around it was about cloud native platforms.
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And I don't know if you heard about cloud funderco
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system clud Funder Foundation. So we were funding members outdoors
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was funding member of clud Funder Foundation and we we
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provide a professional services to companies that implemented cloud fundring
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and we built quite a sizeable team. And at some
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point we received an offer from a big player, a
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global system and the greater saying that hey, guys, we
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want to buy this business. Uh and for us, we
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and we did not even entertain this conversation because everything
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was so intertwined and inside the company. Now that we
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have this stuff augmentation business that we have somewhere on
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the on the end of the world, and we have
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enterprise business, and we have some ideas about working with
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the blockchains, and they're not interested in the whole thing.
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They're interested just in one thing now. But this one thing,
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we we don't know how to show how much it
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cost to to attract the customer, how much is delivery,
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how much is the profit, So we won't be able
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even to do the evaluation of this business. So after
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that painful, painful thought process, we decided that all the
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branches that we.
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That we create now that we formalize.
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Now we need to track now all the investments starting
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from from day zero.
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Now how much was invested, How much was invested.
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We need to have a leader, we need to have
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a team, we need to have strategy, and we need
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to have a separate P and L.
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So that's that's how it started.
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And then in the Web three ecosystem, I don't know
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if you heard about it, there is a concept of DOW,
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a distributed autonomous organization. It became very popular in the
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encrypto industry. Uh. And when we're thinking about what we
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want to do differently in part a fire in comparison
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to what we had in authors. Now, we like this
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DOW principle, but we also understood that in the early
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stage and when there's a lot of dynamics on the
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market and inside organization, this kind of absolute democracy could
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be a blocker.
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So we and Wei we called ourselves DOO. Now for
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several years.
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Now you may when you when you Google for PROTI file,
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you may still find that we're we're dull. But in reality,
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whenever complied with with with the requirements of definition of
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the proper dour organization which is governed by a smart
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contract and holders can vote for critical initiatives.
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So we never went that far.
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And actually, right now, right now, this concept has become
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a little bit less popular.
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It's been discussed less frequently.
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Several companies that tried to build proper DOW they faced
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those issues of governance, voting governance right or attention of
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voters and incentives for voters. So I don't know how
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it will evolve. We are still kind of on offense
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now watching, but we are not moving in this direction.
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And uh, we call our our divisions as subdoos because
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they have again the leadership structure PNL.
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And yeah, that's kind of half half baked doll concept.
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I like that. That's so interesting. You know, it's funny
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because the idea of of having everybody in the company
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get a vote seems especially in startup land like actually,
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I'm I'm I've never I've mostly been at startups or
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smaller companies, although I've spent some time at bigger companies.
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Also, I.
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I can easily see voting on stuff just never getting
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a decision made. And and especially if you want to
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move in a volatile market and you want to move fast.
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You kind of need to have a very limited number
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of people CEO or somebody like that who goes this
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is the direction we're going, and that you know, it's
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that it's that one person who kind of has the
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vision and the responsibility and and leads, you know, leads
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away presumably. Yeah, that seems make way more sense with
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people internally, how like are people how do the career
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tracks evolve? Like, clearly you've personally have moved around and
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your roles have changed, and you're thinking about this very
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differently now than you did twenty years ago. But for
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the rest of the folks, like, what are there what's
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their flexibility structure?
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Yeah, good question, so foreign for developers who engineers, it's
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pretty straightforward.
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You are a junior, mid.
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Level, senior, semi senior lead solution architect right, so on
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this letter is is well defined. For for managers, it
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it depends. So a lot of people clearly outgrown the
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organization and went somewhere somewhere else. For for some people,
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this too is that stayed with us for for quite
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some time. More actually, and the person who is now
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who is running outdoors now Alex he was our first employee,
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so he came to us in two thousands, in early
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two thousand and three. So so he built he was
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fresh out of college, and he built his career with
286
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with us, and he also had twists, so he and
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at some at some point he left that tried to
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build his own company, and then at some point we
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made him an offer and and he returned nine in
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a different position. And we had we had several stories
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like that that some of our early employees worked with
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us and kind of start up set up, very early
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in set up now then they leave, get experience somewhere else,
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and and then they come back in five ten years
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and doing other stints. So we're with different outlook, different experience,
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but also knowing us may maybe being aligned culturally now
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with people working in the organization.
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So uh.
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Yeah, forn for some for some our associates actually import
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of fire. We don't we don't call them employees, we
301
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call them members again following this our philosophy, so uh yeah,
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we'll give them opportunity to to try different than different responsibilities.
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So some some some guys who came as as sales
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they are now running some of some of these businesses
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now that we're incubating.
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Yeah, that makes sense. That's that's cool. It's fascinating.
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You've got this ecosystem going, and especially the part where
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people leave and get other experiences and then come back.
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That sounds like there's something you're doing running the business
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that makes it really attractive for people to be able
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to to go away and gain knowledge and then go Yeah,
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I want to go back to and work with you
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guys again, give an idea what that is.
314
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I think it's my charisma.
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Yeah, good answer.
316
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Okay, So charisma is I always want to break that down,
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like what is it that you're doing behaviorally that has
318
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people want to work with you? Because if you just
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say charisma, it's really hard for somebody else to replicate.
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But if it's behavior year role, then people can do it.
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So what is it that you're doing that has people
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want to come back?
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Yeah? I usually trust people, and I trust all managers.
324
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I rarely macro micromanage. I do this sometimes, but if
325
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I'm forced to, now if I believe I'm forced to,
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or if it's crisis situation, whatever, But generally and generally
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I trust them and that they give them fairly wide
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latitude and what they can do.
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In the meantime I think it was.
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It was a weakness of organization of our earlier stage
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when we didn't have.
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Clear leadership about what.
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We're building, what where we're moving. And for me, it
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was it was a discovery of like six probably seven
335
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years ago. I came across the book Skilling Up Ron Harnish.
336
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I don't know if you heard about it. I have
337
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it on my table all the time.
338
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Yeah, not this one, Yeah, yeah, I like it.
339
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I like it very much because it gives you a framework,
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like from day one, do this, day two, do this.
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Here's a template Philly. Now here's a meeting conducted. Now
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when you conduct this meeting, Now, that's the gen ask
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this type of questions. So uh, and a lot of
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organizations that that I dealt with spoke with other people
345
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now were the time I was building the kind of
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00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:56.920
Frankenstein's Now that you and you find one methodology, you
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use it here. If you find another methodology and use
348
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the you use it there. But the logic behind those
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methodologies may become a little different. So that's why we decided, Okay,
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maybe I'm not in agreement with one hundred percent of
351
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what's killing up is offering, but that is cohesive methodology
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that we can stick to and that we can build.
353
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So yeah, and the resonated with with my managerial experience
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with what we can do, how we can do and yeah,
355
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that's that's probably one of the magnets for for the
356
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organization to come to us, work with us, and to
357
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stay with us.
358
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Nice Kevin, It's been a long time since I've read
359
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that book.
360
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I'm gonna have to go back and read it again
361
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now because I'm like, hmm, okay, that's interesting.
362
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Is this something that you like give to the other
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managers to read so they understand it? Also?
364
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Yeah?
365
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Absolutely, Okay, oh good is the most perfect Yeah, that
366
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scaling of knowledge seems to be.
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One of the.
368
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From the organs that I've seen that grow really well
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versus the ones that kind of I'm trying to be
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diplomatic when I say this, they hit a point where
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00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:30.559
they have too many thought processes and they have a
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ton of internal inertia, and it's because people don't think
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the same, Like the game plan is not understood from
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the top down, and so it's kind of like having
375
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a dog sled team where the dogs all go in
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different directions. Your sled doesn't go anywhere you've got to
377
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get all the dogs go in the same direction. And
378
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if you've got a book that you're like, this is
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the game plan, then that totally makes sense.
380
00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:58.440
I like that. That's cool.
381
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:02.359
What kind of struggles have you guys had over the
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00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:09.160
years other than worrying about political crisis and and COVID
383
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:11.880
and that kind of stuff, like from a from a
384
00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:15.480
you know, how the business grows or how the people
385
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:17.960
are especially because you guys are all over the planet.
386
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:22.559
What are some of the challenges you've had.
387
00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:28.000
Or that will be a conversation for another one hundred dollars.
388
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:32.519
A three top ten.
389
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:37.720
I think we heat all the snags that can can
390
00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:47.559
be possible. Yeah, like hiring mistakes, motivation mistakes, accounting mistakes,
391
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:57.640
team building, alignment, goal setting.
392
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:10.359
Yeah, all of that interesting. I'm always curious about motivation.
393
00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:15.119
Tell me about the motivation mistake. How what was the like,
394
00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:18.200
what was your initial hypothesis and what went wrong and
395
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:19.119
how did you fix it?
396
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:28.720
Uh? Yeah, with to give to give an example, to
397
00:28:28.759 --> 00:28:33.559
give an example, So we started.
398
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:39.039
A business a new hypothesis that there is new technology
399
00:28:39.160 --> 00:28:44.799
and we can we can build a team and yeah,
400
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:47.599
we will found a leader. So now that was also
401
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:50.759
one of the mistakes not to to to initiate something
402
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:54.680
without a clear leader, so that somebody and somebody who
403
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:58.000
is who is not driving this initiative, that initiative was
404
00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:00.720
being driven by the founders. And founder have like two
405
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:04.079
hundred initiatives and today there is one initiative. Tomorrow is
406
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:06.759
the second one. Then it's number seventy eight.
407
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:07.920
NA.
408
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:10.680
So if if you if you have some some initiative
409
00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:12.200
and you spend money on it, you need to have
410
00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:12.720
a lider.
411
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:13.039
No.
412
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:17.480
So I think in Amazon methodology is called single thread liader.
413
00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:20.039
So if you don't have this single thread liader, don't
414
00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:24.920
start the initiative, don't don't don't put money in in
415
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:32.279
this area. So found the leader told to him, okay,
416
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:37.759
so build this business. You will have a share in
417
00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:39.880
this business and you will have a share of.
418
00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:43.279
Profits.
419
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:46.839
You will get they will get a share of revenue
420
00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:49.720
and you will get a share of profits. And the biggest,
421
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:54.839
the biggest component of his motivation model was a share
422
00:29:54.920 --> 00:30:03.079
of revenue. So what happened is that once getting some
423
00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:07.519
early successes and getting some some early customers, he started
424
00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:14.279
to public the team and as the sales pipeline wasn't solid, enough,
425
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:23.960
he was unable to keep the steam utilized. So the
426
00:30:24.039 --> 00:30:28.599
lesson that we took took out of this exercise was that.
427
00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:29.279
We should not.
428
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:34.279
Scale up the team before. Now we have a solid
429
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:41.799
distribution pipeline. So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, I
430
00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:44.920
it's funny. I totally take that for granted.
431
00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:51.599
Because the one of the starts, the second startup that
432
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:55.799
I worked at, the founder was very experienced. He'd been
433
00:30:55.839 --> 00:31:01.079
an entrepreneur making money for uh probably twenty years by
434
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:04.200
the time that I joined him, and he was very
435
00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:08.720
good at making money, but he was also very hesitant
436
00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:14.480
about headcount, and so it always felt like we were
437
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:23.680
behind on the head count and and and I asked
438
00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:25.599
him about it one time because I'm like, you know,
439
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:30.599
like we're busting our butts, you know, like it's crazy.
440
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.319
I'm really tired of working six days a week.
441
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:38.359
And he said, I get it, you know, yeah you
442
00:31:38.359 --> 00:31:40.599
can you know, well, you can add another head count.
443
00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:43.279
But he said, my big fear is hiring too much
444
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:45.960
and having to do layoffs. I really don't want to
445
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:48.400
do layoffs. And he said I had to do it
446
00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:52.079
once before and it was so traumatic for me that
447
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:53.519
I never want to do that again.
448
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:57.240
I would rather pay you over time than.
449
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:03.920
Than deal with that emotional pain of doing layoffs. And
450
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:08.440
I was like, oh, interesting, okay, but yeah, we he
451
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:11.480
was really good at sales and really good at helping
452
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:15.880
the sales team, and so we always had the revenue,
453
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:20.599
you know, like that company. Well on day one, we
454
00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:22.720
didn't have any revenue because we weren't selling on day one,
455
00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:30.039
but we were we were profitable in like nine months,
456
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:36.440
and you know, and it was a it was a
457
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:39.799
spin off of another company. But yeah, he was totally
458
00:32:39.799 --> 00:32:40.440
all about.
459
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:41.759
We're going to make the money and then we're going
460
00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:42.640
to add headcount.
461
00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:43.680
All right.
462
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:45.279
Yeah, yeah, that's.
463
00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:54.680
That's my adulted philosophy as well. Distribution first, delivery second. Yeah,
464
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:58.039
it's again, if you oversell, you can always say to
465
00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:00.960
the customer, oky, customer, storry, I not sign this contract
466
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:06.759
because they don't have capacity to deliver and you you
467
00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:08.880
will have to wait or you will have to to
468
00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:12.119
go away. But we we just we're just enabled to start.
469
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:17.119
So that's that's the worst thing that now that can happen.
470
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:20.160
But the scenario that you're describing that we have we
471
00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:23.200
have for revenue, we have people, now we don't have
472
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:27.200
enough utilization for them, and we need to lay them
473
00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:32.599
off or subsidize this business from other businesses and put
474
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:37.720
them on staruation. Now, these are the outcomes that that's.
475
00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:39.000
I would I prefer to avoid.
476
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:42.759
Yeah, and that is a typical, typical conversation. A typical
477
00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:47.200
conversation now that we have internally is how we can
478
00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:54.960
verify that somebody will buy it? And uh, I think
479
00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:00.279
it's a typical issue with with startups, especially with technical funds.
480
00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:04.839
When they have an idea, they build something, build build
481
00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:05.680
build build builds.
482
00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:06.519
So no, no, no, no.
483
00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:09.920
Nowadays that's much easier because of a yea, but in
484
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:12.199
good old days they might spend like a couple of
485
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.400
years and then they push this product to the market
486
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:18.440
and nobody needs that now no no, no, no, no,
487
00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:23.360
nobody rest to the advertisement. Nobody, no, no, nobody's buying.
488
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:24.039
So there's no.
489
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:29.679
Possibility to to to generate freight now right, So the
490
00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:37.039
typical thought process is, okay, sell imaginary product now. Now
491
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:39.159
if you if you find the customer who is willing
492
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:40.880
to pay for it, then okay, way building.
493
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:43.559
If if not, if nobody is buying, no we're not building.
494
00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:44.159
Yeah.
495
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:49.199
Yeah, and I think that's the I think that's such
496
00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:51.320
a smart way to go. And you know that company
497
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:52.039
that I was at.
498
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:54.480
That's that's how they went in the business.
499
00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:57.920
Was the founder was like, I wonder if anybody would
500
00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:03.440
buy this, and and started talking to people and they
501
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.440
all said, yeah, we would, we would, we want it.
502
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:08.480
And so he was like, okay, if I'm going to
503
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:13.400
build it, and so yeah, you you sell it before
504
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:15.760
you it got it create And that's kind of the
505
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:23.000
whole Eric Reese Lean startup. His whole philosophical perspective is
506
00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:26.800
sell it before you write any code, right, you know,
507
00:35:26.840 --> 00:35:29.239
in some way shape or form, make sure somebody wants
508
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:35.000
to buy it, figure out the minimum test scenario and
509
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:40.840
uh and then you know, complete like iteratively, be always
510
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:45.760
testing that customers want the next thing.
511
00:35:48.039 --> 00:35:48.840
I think it's.
512
00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:58.719
Uh arrogant of companies when they start building functionality that
513
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:03.960
nobody's asked for. And sometimes they get it right, Like
514
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:07.079
sometimes they'll deliver something and all of a sudden, you know,
515
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:08.519
the market jumps all over it.
516
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:13.360
But I think.
517
00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:19.079
I think way more often people build stuff without asking,
518
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.960
you know, they don't ask the market if you'll pay
519
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.880
for this thing, and then they've just wasted all this
520
00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:30.800
time and effort and and nobody cares now just super annoying.
521
00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:35.679
Yeah yeah, yeah, even even bigger organizations.
522
00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:37.639
If you.
523
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:42.519
Dig into statistics and there is I don't remember what
524
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:45.079
I read about. It was an article or a book
525
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:50.239
that when Amazon and Microsoft build a new future now
526
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:57.079
in their in their systems, the probability of them succeeded
527
00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:00.280
and reaching out the KPIs they wanted is more than
528
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:00.840
fifty percent.
529
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:02.480
Oh yeah, wait lord?
530
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:03.559
Yeah yeah. So if you.
531
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:07.760
If you someone that knowledgeable about your customers, and you
532
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:12.400
have already have existing existing products and the reason why
533
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:16.840
you finance development told this feature is probably because you
534
00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:19.719
get some customer feedback because they're told the interested they
535
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:24.199
wanted yep, and you do this and the success rate
536
00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:26.639
is low than fifty percent, that's something to think about.
537
00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:30.079
Yeah. Yeah. There there was an article I read years ago.
538
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:32.599
He was a guy that.
539
00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:34.840
Worked in new eye design and he had been at
540
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:38.800
Amazon for a while, and he said they were constantly testing.
541
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:41.199
Little tweaks.
542
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:47.159
And he said, they're they're they were all very lightweight
543
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:53.239
experiments relatively speaking, and they're they're big a.
544
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:54.960
How was it I think it was.
545
00:37:56.639 --> 00:38:02.360
If like ten percent of them were successful on proving
546
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:07.679
a hypothesis that that was enough because they made so
547
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:15.280
much more money because of those all got proved out.
548
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:16.920
And it was it was a it was a pure.
549
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:20.000
Math analytics you know kind of a thing that they
550
00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:27.199
were doing, and there was no stigma if your hypothesis failed,
551
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:31.320
they were like we we because there was no way
552
00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:32.920
to know, you know. It was like and it was
553
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:40.000
things like five pixel difference in the size or position
554
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:45.440
of a button, you know, like little tiny nuances, which
555
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:47.440
because that was his thing, you know, it was like
556
00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:49.360
little little adjustments.
557
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:50.519
Uh.
558
00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:52.320
And I thought that was so interesting that they did
559
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:55.400
it that way and that it worked for them. But
560
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:59.639
the other companies it seems like they they go a
561
00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:01.840
different direction. It's a way too, you know, they throw
562
00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:07.480
a bunch of money at like there's a there's When
563
00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:10.000
I was at Google, there was functionality and Google sheets
564
00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:13.320
that the product managers thought would be super cool, but
565
00:39:13.639 --> 00:39:14.679
they had like no adoption.
566
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:15.719
Nobody cared.
567
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:22.800
And uh, I was always amazed at that, you know,
568
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:28.440
like why they didn't do any conversations with the end users.
569
00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:33.599
So how many how many people do you guys have
570
00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:39.599
right now across all your orgs ballpark? Yeah?
571
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:39.840
I wan?
572
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:44.440
Oh nice very cool. And do you guys do.
573
00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:52.760
You mentioned back office shared across everybody, which genius. I
574
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:55.719
think that's probably one of the one of the best
575
00:39:55.719 --> 00:39:58.400
things you can do for your for your spin offs.
576
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.960
Do you guys, guys do things where like everybody comes
577
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:07.000
together virtually or in real life to kind of talk
578
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:09.800
about where they're at or is everybody just offten in
579
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:10.360
their own thing.
580
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:15.840
Yeah, that's also a big, a big issue.
581
00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:21.320
Ideally I want one day to to collect everybody in
582
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:23.559
one place to to meet.
583
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:24.719
Face to face socialize.
584
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:32.440
But it's just none, I guess too too expensive and
585
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:36.079
disruptive form for the business.
586
00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:39.159
What we do WHIM now.
587
00:40:40.599 --> 00:40:45.880
WHIM organized gatherings in our biggest hubs. So right now
588
00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:51.599
we have a hub in Buenos AIREUS, so once in
589
00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:54.719
a while or people in Latin America fly in or
590
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:58.519
drive in to Bueno Cyrus and they have they have
591
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:04.960
good time out there, typically around New Year time. Another
592
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:12.840
big hub for us right now is Warsaw, so we
593
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:16.800
we haven't done this yet, but there's also a possibility
594
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:19.239
to fly in everybody who is in Europe to Warsaw
595
00:41:19.400 --> 00:41:26.880
and to have to have an offside there. Also, we
596
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:34.280
use conferences when we go to the trade shows. We
597
00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:39.559
we try to to have teams who work together still
598
00:41:39.639 --> 00:41:44.199
longer or arrived earlier, and to work on strategic items
599
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:47.440
now that you typically don't don't discuss on the calls.
600
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:49.920
I like that idea.
601
00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:53.079
Yeah, yeah, I always wonder, you know, when as companies
602
00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:57.039
are geographically more distributed, you know.
603
00:41:57.440 --> 00:41:59.199
How do you what do you do?
604
00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:02.079
Like what you're roach you know on that, because it
605
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:06.880
seems like that's a really good bonding opportunity for people
606
00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:11.800
in the organization, And when you know people face to face.
607
00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:16.159
It's it's it's.
608
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.840
More trust building when like you're in the same room,
609
00:42:18.039 --> 00:42:24.119
you know. And uh, I always think about building trust
610
00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:29.800
in an organizations as as being a productivity enhancement. And
611
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:32.719
so I'm like, okay, so how do you know, what
612
00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:33.159
do you do?
613
00:42:33.400 --> 00:42:33.559
Right?
614
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:37.239
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, but you guys all over the place,
615
00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:37.800
so I get that that.
616
00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:40.840
Yeah, it would be very expensive to have everybody get together,
617
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:45.880
you know, And I don't even know what the middle
618
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:50.960
would be for you guys. Yeah, a boat in the
619
00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:56.119
middle of the Atlantic Ocean or Azora's right yeah there,
620
00:42:56.199 --> 00:42:57.519
yeah exactly, yeah.
621
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:02.639
Yeah, yeah, that'd be kind of funny. Interesting flights, expensive
622
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:14.280
out there. Yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah, interesting, huh.
623
00:43:11.320 --> 00:43:15.119
Huh what else? What else interesting about the company? Would
624
00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:15.920
you like people to know?
625
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:25.000
Uh?
626
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:27.800
Yeah, you know, I think it's a tough one, you know,
627
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:33.440
and when when something that's something that you deal with
628
00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:38.000
day to day is kind of common thing, right, so it's.
629
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:40.719
It's not surprising to me.
630
00:43:40.840 --> 00:43:47.840
But yeah again following now, following the scaling up methodology.
631
00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:52.039
One of the most foundations foundational documents is so Coolled
632
00:43:52.039 --> 00:44:00.119
seven Strata seven strata strategy, and it describes who is
633
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.119
your customer, what are they buying, what are the KPIs
634
00:44:03.159 --> 00:44:06.360
that you are measuring, What are the special skills that
635
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:10.159
you need to to have inside the organization to satisfy
636
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:17.000
those needs? Not the concept of bihag big here redacious goals.
637
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:19.920
So what would be the most important metric now that
638
00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:24.679
that you want to measure and achieve? So I guess
639
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:29.960
in my interviews conversations when when we hire somebody, now
640
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:33.519
when when I share this document, that is something that
641
00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:38.719
they get the most positive feedback. And actually it's surprisingly
642
00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:42.119
hard to develop this document. It's just one pasure work
643
00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:48.000
table now with another answers essentially seven questions in the
644
00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:51.920
first time when we did this exercise, we were done
645
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:58.239
on off site and the people flew in here to California.
646
00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:01.079
We was in the meeting room and I allocate like
647
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:07.000
two hours to discuss no analogy and then seven strata
648
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:10.639
we're going to do this. Probably probably two hours would
649
00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:15.400
be enough. So it took us more than two years.
650
00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:17.079
Oh my goodness.
651
00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:22.239
Wow, Okay, that's like, yeah, you're off by Like there's
652
00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:24.280
orders of magnitude in there, like why.
653
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:26.719
It's not something that you that you work on like
654
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:31.280
the day to day. But you do this once you
655
00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:33.760
you you have a question you just don't don't know
656
00:45:33.800 --> 00:45:36.679
how to answer, right, So the next time you do,
657
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:39.679
you try to do this one month later or two
658
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:43.280
months later, and again and again and again and again.
659
00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:46.480
So yeah, you should not give up.
660
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:49.119
Yeah, and later.
661
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:49.760
It does magic.
662
00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:54.280
It's it's very important for alignment of key team members.
663
00:45:55.639 --> 00:45:59.440
They understand who were selling to who why, very good
664
00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:04.239
for sales training. So again one one observations about about
665
00:46:04.280 --> 00:46:08.239
sales and especially marketing companies that spam you saying that
666
00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:12.079
we are going to increase your sales funnels by ten
667
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:15.920
x or one hundred text whatever we're going to to
668
00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:16.599
sell whatever.
669
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:17.760
Whatever you sell.
670
00:46:18.760 --> 00:46:20.880
But the funny thing when you start talking to these guys,
671
00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:24.320
they never ask you, now, what do you sell?
672
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:26.679
Why do you sell to? Whom? Do you sell? Now?
673
00:46:26.679 --> 00:46:30.840
Who the competitors? So they just.
674
00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:35.119
You give them something and they try to replicate some
675
00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:37.599
of the processes that you that you have not trying
676
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:40.159
to solve foundational issues about maybe if you don't have
677
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:44.480
a product market seat right right, maybe nobody needs were No, no, no, no,
678
00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:46.880
nobody needs you or your product. So how do you
679
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:52.920
know that there is a product market heat? So, yeah,
680
00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:56.760
it's important to have a product market heat. And if
681
00:46:56.760 --> 00:46:59.880
you don't have it, then just go back to a drawing.
682
00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:02.440
Yeah, yeah, I like that.
683
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:05.719
Okay, Now I definitely read the book again because I'm
684
00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:08.239
I'm like, oh my god, I want to I need
685
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:10.119
to go look at that and think about that and
686
00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:13.199
and uh, one of the things that I'm hearing is
687
00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:17.840
that you have a ton of patients because going from oh,
688
00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:19.599
you know, we'll get done in two hours and then
689
00:47:19.639 --> 00:47:21.360
it takes so much.
690
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:21.880
Longer than that.
691
00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:25.519
You've got to be willing to be like, Okay, it's
692
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:27.199
gonna just take longer than we thought, and.
693
00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:30.239
We're gonna keep working at it.
694
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:38.000
Yeah, I would guess so for for some things I
695
00:47:38.119 --> 00:47:42.079
have more patience of them. For the others, Yeah, I
696
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:48.800
wouldn't say that we completely follow the methodology. So for
697
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:58.000
for some aspect it's too mutch even for me. But yeah,
698
00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:00.239
if you if you decide that you have to tek
699
00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:04.639
to to some methodology. And it's actually now ubiquitous issue
700
00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:08.440
now when you speak about scrum or agile. Right, everybody
701
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:14.039
speaks about agile, but nobody in nobody follows its meticulously.
702
00:48:13.960 --> 00:48:16.000
Right right, yeah.
703
00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:21.119
Yeah, And the only company I have seen that follow
704
00:48:21.159 --> 00:48:27.679
streak agile was was Pivotal Pivotal Pivotal lobs and they
705
00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:32.599
tried to to introduce this methodology to their customers as
706
00:48:32.599 --> 00:48:36.039
well when when they were selling their product Cloud Foundry.
707
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:36.800
Uh.
708
00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:43.360
They also trained their customers like Boing Old State, major
709
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:47.840
banks how to do how to do agile right mm hm.
710
00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:51.840
For some time it steaks, but now then it falls apart.
711
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:54.920
Right right, yeah. Yeah, And I've noticed there's a lot
712
00:48:54.920 --> 00:49:00.159
of there's a lot of people that are complaining at
713
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:04.079
agile the way it's implemented. They're not happy about. And
714
00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:08.519
it seems like it's interesting like some places they implement
715
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:11.599
it and everybody's really happy, and some places implement it
716
00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:16.119
and very few people are happy, And I always wonder, like,
717
00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:24.800
what's you know, like, what's the implementation problem. I've been
718
00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:30.920
really happy about agile shops, but I'm also very what's
719
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:37.519
the term? I want to make sure we implement in
720
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:40.280
the way that makes the teams happy.
721
00:49:40.360 --> 00:49:40.840
And so.
722
00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:47.559
Yeah, philosophically we're doing agile, but because it's so much
723
00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:50.960
flexibility in the guidelines, I'm like, oh, okay, great, you
724
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:52.280
know you guys don't like this part.
725
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:56.480
Well, fine, how do we get around that?
726
00:49:56.559 --> 00:49:57.280
What do we do.
727
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:04.039
And evolve until the team's happy about it?
728
00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:09.599
Because happy teams are faster. So yeah, yeah, I.
729
00:50:09.559 --> 00:50:15.519
Think popital statement was a little different. So they said
730
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:18.920
something like, it's not a goal to make you happy
731
00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:22.960
at work. Our goal is to make you productive, and
732
00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:24.480
productivity will make you happy.
733
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:26.000
Yeah.
734
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:28.800
See, I see it the other way. I see happy first.
735
00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:32.639
My experience has been that happy developers are really productive,
736
00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:42.480
and that productive developers become unhappy unless if if they're
737
00:50:42.519 --> 00:50:46.519
just being productive, they can get unhappy really fast.
738
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:48.039
You got to figure out how to feed the happy
739
00:50:48.679 --> 00:50:49.960
You got to feed the happy button.
740
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:52.159
Yeah.
741
00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:55.559
Well, what I have seen was that it was like
742
00:50:55.639 --> 00:50:59.239
Hito mess. So they either not had people who loved
743
00:50:59.400 --> 00:51:03.000
this culture and the state and people who hated it
744
00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:03.599
and they left.
745
00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:04.880
Yeah.
746
00:51:04.960 --> 00:51:08.400
Yeah, And I'm always curious and those like, what's the
747
00:51:08.599 --> 00:51:13.960
you know, what's the difference. What's a system you can
748
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:17.840
have so that more people like it?
749
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:29.119
Yeah right, yeah, so again speaking about Peopital and and
750
00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:34.199
then and my observations, they created the sculture. They were
751
00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:37.960
fitting breakfast. They had cool office, but they were very
752
00:51:37.960 --> 00:51:43.239
strict about player programming, about about working time, start time
753
00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:46.760
and time because of square programming, right, people have to
754
00:51:46.840 --> 00:51:51.119
work and players and to follow specific planning procedures.
755
00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:53.920
So yeah, it was.
756
00:51:55.519 --> 00:51:58.119
That they had some parks, yeah.
757
00:51:58.239 --> 00:52:01.519
But none. Yeah, that's about the job. It was just
758
00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:02.159
an example.
759
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:02.719
Yeah.
760
00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:06.679
Okays, many companies they say that we'll work by strong
761
00:52:07.159 --> 00:52:08.960
but if you if you ask them, okay, do do
762
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:09.599
these do do that?
763
00:52:09.760 --> 00:52:13.239
Do do that? And I they say no, Well let's
764
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:13.920
keep this one.
765
00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:19.360
Yeah yeah, exactly, Yeah, interesting, interesting, albraty does this cool?
766
00:52:20.679 --> 00:52:22.119
I'm looking at the time you.
767
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:24.440
I don't want to take your whole day, even though
768
00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:26.280
I know you could talk for one hundred hours about people.
769
00:52:28.039 --> 00:52:30.679
This has been awesome. Thank you. I really appreciate the
770
00:52:30.679 --> 00:52:34.679
insights and yeah, this has been very cool.
771
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:36.159
Thank you, good