One Man's Planetary Quest for Happiness | Ravi Patel

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From ABC, this is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.
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Before we get to the episode, we care really deeply
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10% dot com slash reward. That's 10% one word all
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spelled out dot com slash reward. Hey, hey, it's a
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new week and we've got two great episodes for you
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this week. And there's a common denominator between these two episodes.
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They're both people who have phenomenal stories. On Wednesday, you're
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going to hear from a Buddhist monk who survived an
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assassination attempt. That's coming up in two days. Let's start
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with today's guest. We're going to address a number of questions.
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How do you strike work-life balance when you feel overwhelming
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pressure to provide for your family? How do you balance
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gender roles in a modern marriage? How close should we
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live to our parents when they retire? These are questions
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that many, if not most of us, struggle with in
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one form or fashion. But Ravi Patel does so in public,
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not just in public, but on camera and all over
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the world. Ravi is an actor who's been in TV
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shows such as Master of None and American Housewife and
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movies such as Transformers and the upcoming Wonder Woman 1984.
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He's perhaps best known, though, for starring in a hilarious
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and very moving documentary called Meet the Patels, in which
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he travels around America. And India egged on by his
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parents looking for a bride. Now he has a new
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TV show. It's on HBO Max and it's called Ravi
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Patel's Pursuit of Happiness. In each episode, he and somebody
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in his life, his wife, his parents, his best friend,
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go on a global adventure to address a major life issue.
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Here's a clip of Ravi and his parents in Mexico
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exploring the issue of retirement.
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We all feel a great responsibility to take care of
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our parents. And we want to get it right because
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we love them and who knows how much time we
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all have left together. What I realized is that what
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I want more than anything else is for them to
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have this. Playing, laughing, celebrating, Being too busy to pick
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up the phone when I call them. One day I'm
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going to be them and I'm not going to want
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to feel like I'm some burden or in a really
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long going away party.
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I really think you're going to enjoy this conversation. Ravi's
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very funny and a completely open book.
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Before we started rolling, he told me that he's been
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beating himself up recently for not meditating enough. And that's
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where our interview begins. Just to put your mind at
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ease a little bit, habit formation and now having studied
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this a little bit is diabolically difficult and everybody struggles
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or almost everybody struggles with forming new healthy habits. And
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if you have ADHD, I can only imagine that would
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make it even more difficult. So I would love to
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turn down the volume on your self-criticism if possible.
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Uh, I appreciate it, man. I would love to turn
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down that volume too. You know, I'd love to turn
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down my volume in general. I mean, I am genetically loud.
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I mean, you said you saw the documentary. I come
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from a loud family. Yeah.
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I mean, there's a lot of similarity with both of
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your parents, but, and both of your parents seem like
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maybe they speak at high volume, but everything they say
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is awesome.
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Yeah. That's true. Oh, dude, I can't tell you what
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a gift it was to, you know, and you're in
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the business, so you'd get it. Like, you know, my
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sister and I, we made that movie together. We spent
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six years making it and we edited it. You know,
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we had other editors as well, but we eventually edited
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it ourselves. And so how lucky am I that I
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got to see not only myself, but my parents and
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my family from this kind of detached third party perspective
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as characters in a story that we're telling. And it
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gave me, I mean, I wish this upon everyone with
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anyone you love, that you get to see someone for
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a second detached from the usual dynamic you have with them.
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To see my parents and myself as a character, I
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got to see the strengths. I got to see the weaknesses.
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I got to see the beginning, middle and end And
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for me, ultimately, I was like, oh my God, I'm
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just so lucky. These people are amazing. And then to
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put the film out there and to get the kind
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of feedback that we got specifically about how lucky I
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am to have my parents, it's such a good feeling. And,
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you know, that kind of leads us to a segue
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to the show. The first episode of Pursuit of Happiness
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is on retirement and aging and taking my parents to
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this hotspot, this retirement place in Mexico. It's really a
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continuation of that, of wanting to make the most of
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the time that we have together especially now that I'm
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on the other side of 40 and wanting to, realizing
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everyone's mortality, basically, wanting to kind of ask the questions
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today that I might regret not having asked sooner or
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before it's too late.
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It's a really rich episode because there are at least
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two levels, at least two levels, more for sure, but
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there are at least two levels that are relevant to
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this conversation thus far. One is thinking about from your
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parents' perspective, retirement and how you want to live these years.
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And the other is from your perspective of a kind
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of wistfulness. We're watching you come to terms with the
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fact that this incredibly rich and unusually healthy, it seems,
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relationship that you have with your parents will, of course,
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end because those are the laws of nature.
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Yeah, it's both of those angles. And You know, there's
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not really a right answer. And I don't know that
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we came to any specific conclusions to either of those.
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But I can tell you that going on that journey
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really brought those questions to the forefront. And we're kind
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of a really great stepping stone.
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Let me reflect a little bit on something that I've
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learned in this process and just see how it lands
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with you in light of what you're learning quite publicly
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about your relationship with your parents. I've referenced this before
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on the show. I believe she's a child psychologist or
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child psychiatrist, Alison Gopnik. I heard her being interviewed on
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Ezra Klein's podcast. Ezra Klein's been on the show a
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couple times, and he has a great podcast. And she
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said something that just stopped me in my tracks, which
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is that you don't care because you love. You love
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because you care. It's the act of caring for somebody
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that produces the love. And I've found that this leaning
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in and taking care of my parents has created a
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whole new dimension to our relationship. And I wonder if
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that resonates with you, given what is going on with
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you and your parents.
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You know where that really resonates with me is in marriage.
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Like the idea of love is this thing that, not
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to avoid your question, but that's just where my mind
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went to is that's really been evidenced in my marriage.
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I didn't have a choice with my parents. And so
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we've just always figured out how to make it work.
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So I don't know, it's not as clear to me
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in that relationship, even though it makes perfect sense. But
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in my marriage, here's a person who was a stranger
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who then we decided we love each other and we're
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going to start this life together. And only in retrospect
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did I realize that love is not a real thing.
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It's actually the output of doing the work together. And
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by the way, is there any deeper level of work
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than becoming parents together? I mean, all the cracks show up,
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you know, that's where all the hard work. And so
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to me, that is really evidence of the statement you made.
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I mean, I'm sure you must relate to that as
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well in your marriage, right?
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A hundred percent.
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And actually at one point my wife got sick She
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had breast cancer and is cured.
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She's totally fine.
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But the caring for her up the love, even though
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it sucked or most of it sucked, that part of
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it was positive. And I totally, you know, I think
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this adage of you don't care because you love, you
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love because you care applies to every relationship. It can
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apply to mentoring relationships, your kids, adopted child, anybody. It's
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just such an interesting way to look at relationships. It's
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the work that produces the love, not some special magic.
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Yeah, I love that, man. You know, first of all,
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I think just the way everything's set up right now
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for Americans. We spend the breakdown of the community, the
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breakdown of the family. We don't spend as much time
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with the family unit as we used to. Everyone lives
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further apart. We've become increasingly individualized. There's no codependency. You
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don't need a ride to the airport. You got Uber.
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We don't hang out in our front yards. The family
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unit itself is not what it used to be. And
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so what that does... is it's created an unfair transaction,
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I think, for our parents' generation. Because essentially, they did
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all the work, their investment comes up front, and their
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return was supposed to come in the later years. And
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what I see so often, especially with American families, but
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I think it's just something, a trend in general right now,
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is they took care of us, they gave us everything,
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and then we become independent. So independent to the point
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where we see caring for our parents as a burden.
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I think a lot of people feel that way at least.
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And that's something that I've really tried to fight. Indian
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culture obviously expects you to take care of your parents,
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but I also feel... Look, I would love for it
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to come entirely out of love A lot of it, though,
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comes out of an obligation, I feel, towards my parents.
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And especially, I'm sure this happened to you, becoming a dad, whoa,
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what an eye-opener in perspective and empathy towards my parents.
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I vividly remember the moment even, I was sitting there
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at four in the morning with my daughter and And
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when they're really young, you just sit there in silence.
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You can't pay attention to anything else. It was honestly
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the beginning of me starting to get a sense of
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what mindfulness and meditation, what it might get you to.
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I was probably sitting with her for 45 minutes to
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an hour, complete silence in the dark, and I had
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no other choice. And I remember at the end of
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that moment, because I spent the whole time just looking
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at her and loving her. That was it. And it
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wasn't a complicated thought. It was just that singular intention.
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And at the end of it, I thought, whoa, this
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is what my parents have done for me for 40 years.
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Maybe it's a little less the older you get, but
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they have spent a lot of time just wanting me
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to be okay and wanting me to love them back.
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You know, like for me to come back and essentially say,
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you did a really good job. Thank you. Because that's
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how I feel. That's what I want out of my kid.
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Not for her to say thank you, but for her
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to feel thank you, right? And, oh man, doesn't that
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make you want to do the work? And that was
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when I started to have that conversation with my therapist.
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And I was like, hey, I'm realizing I'm at this age,
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like one, I've never been so grateful for having parents,
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but that I have the parents I have. And I'm
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also at this age where I have friends who are
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starting to get sick. Friends, parents, uncles, aunts, they're starting
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to lose them. I've never been to a funeral, which
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is insane, I know. I don't want to just be
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the best son. I want to do whatever it takes
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to make our relationship the best version of itself. I remember,
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and I imagine most of us have gone through this period,
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you know, in our, let's say, early mid-20s. At some point,
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there's a shift where you go from this fiduciary relationship
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with your parents. They're your bosses. They're people you go
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to for resources to fix problems. You don't see them
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as equals. You don't see them. It's not a two
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way street. You're not giving anything to them. You're not
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even thinking in that way. At least, you know, I'm
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not saying, you know, maybe you were like that, but
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I was, I was not like that. And we started
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to go through that transitional period where they were still
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being my bosses and telling me what to do. And
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I went into this mode of, where I'm giving the
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exact same answers, we're having the exact same conversations every
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time we talk, where my answers are often one word
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or one sentence. They're asking the exact same three questions,
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you know, like, how are you feeling? Are you eating okay?
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How much money do you have in the bank? That's
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a question my mom, that's one of her greatest hits.
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And I'm giving the same answers. And the result is
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everyone feels shitty about themselves. There's no actual conversation happening
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And it's stale. And I remember kind of noticing that.
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And I don't remember what it was. It could have
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been the documentary. It could have been a friend's story.
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I don't know what. But I remember thinking, oh God,
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this is not the relationship I want with my parents.
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And so what I started to do, for better or
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for worse, was I started to pretend to care. As in,
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we'd be on the phone and I remember I would
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ask my parents advice on I didn't need advice on
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just for the sake of making them feel human and important.
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And I started asking them like starting random conversation pieces,
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because keep in mind at that moment, I was on
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the other end of that bad habit that we had
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created in our dynamic. So I was, I was faking
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as much for myself as I was for them. But
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a funny thing happened. Like when I started to treat
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them like humans, they started to be human and treat
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me like a human in turn. And to me, it
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was a perfect evidence of doing the care, of actually
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the spark of caring and how that can lead to love.
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I want to step back for a second because there
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are other subjects you tackle in the show that I
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want to talk about. But before we dive into that,
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and those include work-life balance and marriage and parenting, but
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Before we dive into that, I want to step all
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the way back and.
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Ask, why do you want to do this?
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Everybody wants to be happy, but most people are not
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very systematic or thoughtful about it. And even those who are,
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are not doing it in public. So what's going on
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with you that you decided to do this work?
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Well, I think you know the answer because you and
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I are doing the same thing, but I'll give it
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to you nonetheless. Mm-hmm.
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Maybe yours is different. Mine is just, I'm a greedy
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narcissist and I'm just looking to sell books. So what's yours?
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I've heard you say that plenty of times, but that's
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not the truth. The fact of the matter is, you know,
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you're lucky to be where you are doing what you do.
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And you know that this path is hopefully going to
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be healthier for not just you, but the people you love.
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And that's a privilege just to be in that position.
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And I think, you know, just to bring it back
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to our parents, I think that's something that good parents
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really teach you. You know, I was listening to Michelle
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Obama's podcast with Barack, the first episode. And one of
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the things they said is that, you know, I think
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Michelle asked Barack, what's the one thing you wish you
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could teach everyone? And they both agreed that the one
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thing they wish they could teach is how important giving is,
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how that is actually the most selfish thing you can do.
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It's the most fulfilling, personally fulfilling thing you can do.
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My parents taught me that. That was something that was
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ingrained for me, community first, family first, whether it was
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through actions at the temple or always just, you know,
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my house growing up was like an immigrant halfway house,
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just like different Indians coming through that we were supporting
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and helping set up in this country. And so I
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know that to be true of just the giving. And
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I mean, this sounds so cheesy, but like I have
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the evidence in me. I just know it in my mind.
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So I'm always kind of chasing more of that. And
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Meet the Patels was more evidence of that. That was
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a really big turning point for me. You know, prior
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to Meet the Patels, I had quit acting twice because
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I kind of fell into acting. I was an entrepreneur.
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I was like a finance guy prior to that. And
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I fell into acting just, I was in LA and
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all of a sudden this career happens. And I kept
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doing it because I was making all this money and
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it's something that everyone else wanted to do. But I
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thought it was the dumbest thing. And I had no
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spiritual relationship with it at all. And it wasn't fulfilling
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to me. But when I made Meet the Patels, here's
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a film that's about my life. It's about a real
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important chapter in my life. I make it with my sister,
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with my parents. And the result is my sister and I,
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who previously, I didn't necessarily like her. I always loved her.
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Now we're legitimately best friends because as a result of
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making that movie together, we couldn't fire each other. We
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made each other cry. We sent each other to therapy.
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And now we really figured out how to see each
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other and love each other. Got to go on this
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entire journey with my parents, all the things I already
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said to you. And they're now like the most hilarious,
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unlikely celebrities. And they want more of it. I'm having
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to tell my dad to calm the hell down. His
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Facebook status says actor, celebrity guest speaker. He's got like
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eight things that are all like make you want to vomit.
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But really the main thing that that film taught me was... oh,
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like this, like work can actually be purposeful and it
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can be an inner journey, but it can also bring
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me closer to the people that I want to get
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closer to. And having felt that so profoundly and surprisingly
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through Meet the Patels, I've kind of been chasing that
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feeling ever since. And it very much informed my decision
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for the premise of the show. This thing started at CNN, right?
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And I didn't actually know why I was meeting with them.
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I just talked to them for an hour about just
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the way I talk right now, like all the things
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that I was obsessed with. I get obsessed with all things,
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every trend, all things health and wellness, all things positive psychology.
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I just get obsessed with all of them. And and
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I'm a yo-yo one. That's all try things like I'll
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go on the cleanse. Then I'll go on a binge,
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like on a, you know, that's just how I've always been.
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I told him all this. I told him my obsession
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with like building a neighborhood with all my best friends, blah, blah, blah.
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And they came back. They said, look, we would love
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to do a show with you. The only thing is
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it has to be travel, but we want it to
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be whatever your thing is. And I don't have a thing.
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Like I'm not an expert in anything. I certainly couldn't
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do a food show. But the one thing that I
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had done before was a journey with people I love
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that is, you know, somehow premised in introspection and curiosity.
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And there's another thing that happened. I've been in so
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many failed shows as an actor. that I know that
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the likelihood of anything, no matter how excited you get,
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is that it's going to go away. And so you
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have to find a way to enjoy the thing you're
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doing while you're doing it. Because in everything you and
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I do, we are conditioned to believe you have to
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have a myopic obsession with the top of the mountain. Otherwise,
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you won't ever get to the top of the mountain.
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But the older you get, the more you realize the
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top of the mountain doesn't actually exist. And if it does,
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it's not even necessarily a happy place.
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Well, you get there and you see that some other
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dude's on the top of a bigger mountain.
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Yeah, you see there's a mountain on top of the
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top of the mountain. Yeah, exactly. And so this was
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another thing that came with becoming a father and getting
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on the other side of 40 was, oh man, the
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last 10 years looked amazing on paper, but I don't
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even know that I remember what happened. Got to figure
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out a way to love your day, prioritize what's happening today. So,
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I mean, and I feel like all those things came
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together at the right time when this show opportunity happened.
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And I said, look, I don't want to be on
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a show where I'm traveling alone because I don't think
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that'll be fun. And also if it goes on forever,
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I really, it'll just make me further apart from the
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people I love. I can't be away from my family
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that long. And if the show gets canceled, which I'm
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expecting it will, then I want to make it so
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that each episode truly was a life-changing journey. So I'm
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happy it happened either way. And that's what happened here.
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Every episode I travel, some of my life, we address
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some big question And the way I even prioritized what
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00:21:53.789 --> 00:21:56.529
the episode premises were was I just sat down and
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thought about what are like kind of the most urgent,
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pressing questions in my life. Go to Mexico to talk
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about retirement and aging with my parents at a time
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where that's one of the top questions I want to
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figure out. How are we going to spend the rest
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of our time together? Went to Japan with my wife.
400
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This is the most important new thing in my life
401
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is figuring out how to make this thing work, this family.
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So we went to Japan. It's one of the most
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innovative places in the world. And they have their own
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way of doing everything. And generally speaking, it's better. So
405
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why not go to Japan to try that? Went to
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South Korea with one of my best friends, Matt Paulson, who,
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like me, loves to go hard in work and in play.
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And so we went to a country that's having that
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issue on an institutional level. And then went to Denmark
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to a country that I'd only previously known as the
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happiest place in the world, only to find out that
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it's not so great. for immigrants and refugees. Turns out
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what they're going through is one of the most pressing
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urgent American questions that we're experiencing right now.
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More of my conversation with Ravi Patel right after this.
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So work-life balance. I didn't see that. That was the
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episode you went to Korea. I didn't see that one.
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I'm kind of obsessed with that issue because I'm not
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the best at that.
420
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I'm Mr. Happiness and blah, blah, blah.
421
00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:19.700
Yeah, that's what you do. I mean, that could not
422
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be more your business.
423
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:23.339
Yes, but I'm a massive hypocrite because I work too much.
424
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Even now? What? Yes.
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I mean, I've gotten better.
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I stopped anchoring Nightline and that means I'm home in
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the evenings and I have dinner with my family every night,
428
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but I still work seven days a week. And I
429
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had a conversation with my son last night.
430
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I was reading him a book.
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And I see my son a ton, so this is
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going to sound worse than it is, but he had
433
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been fighting my reading him the book. He wanted my
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mom to read the book. And as I was reading
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the book to him, I said, you know what, what's up?
436
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You don't like daddy?
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And he was like, no, no, no. You know, it's
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like we keep missing each other. I try to hang
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out with you, but you're always working. And I was like, oh, man,
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because it's true. Sometimes he comes up to me during
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the day when I'm trying to work or he often
442
00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:09.789
comes and interrupts this podcast. with no pants on, but
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I can't hang with him in that moment. And then
444
00:24:12.490 --> 00:24:14.849
sometimes when I'm ready to hang with him, he's like
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on a mommy trip. I'm curious to hear about work-life balance.
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I've done a lot of work on myself, but that's
447
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an area where I'm still not fully formed.
448
00:24:24.029 --> 00:24:28.650
Look, work-life balance, I think, is maybe most people we
449
00:24:28.690 --> 00:24:33.259
know's number one challenge. Look, you're kind of in the
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00:24:33.339 --> 00:24:37.180
perfect story. You work in journalism, which is an incredibly
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I don't know how to put it, like work aggressive.
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There's a pride in workaholism and journalism. It's an incredibly competitive,
453
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lot of big egos. And you do it in New
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York at the top of the game. I mean, you've
455
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.319
got a lot of pressure. In entertainment in general, like
456
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:57.619
I said earlier, you feel like you have to have
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this myopic desperation to to have a chance of succeeding.
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And the problem with that is that every time you
459
00:25:04.210 --> 00:25:07.130
create an opportunity, you feel the need to create more
460
00:25:07.210 --> 00:25:10.730
opportunities out of that opportunity. So that's a never ending
461
00:25:11.730 --> 00:25:15.059
toxic feedback loop. If you think about it, it never ends.
462
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I feel that so much. And it's one of the
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conversations I have most commonly with my wife and talk
464
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about in therapy quite a bit. Look, I think the
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conversation for me started with probably eight to 10 years ago,
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this idea of purpose and work and trying to figure
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out ways to have my work feed into my overall purpose, okay?
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Which I realized then and I realize today is a privilege.
469
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99% of people don't even get that possibility.
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Right now, many people don't even have jobs.
471
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Right now, many people don't even have jobs, exactly. I'm
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fortunate enough where I think I've figured that out pretty well.
473
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I have almost an entirely triple bottom line approach to
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everything i do and if anything it's a singular bottom
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line where you know i'm fortunate enough where money isn't
476
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even my main thing not that i'm wealthy by any
477
00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:13.589
means i'm not but i certainly now chase experience and
478
00:26:13.849 --> 00:26:17.690
what something does for my life and my family's life
479
00:26:18.089 --> 00:26:21.150
more than i do necessarily what it's going to do
480
00:26:21.190 --> 00:26:22.589
immediately financially.
481
00:26:22.190 --> 00:26:25.240
Or career-wise Why South Korea? What's their problem? And what
482
00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:27.140
did you learn about how we can be better at
483
00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:28.200
work-life balance there?
484
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:33.779
So South Korea was a very poor country 60, 70
485
00:26:33.779 --> 00:26:36.880
years ago. And they had a lot of work to do.
486
00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:41.119
So as I understand it, a dictator came in, put
487
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:45.099
in all these programs to essentially pump up the GDP
488
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:50.549
as quickly as possible. Fast forward many years later, The
489
00:26:50.589 --> 00:26:54.750
country has made one of the best comebacks in world history,
490
00:26:54.769 --> 00:26:57.890
as I understand it. But the downside of it is
491
00:26:57.910 --> 00:27:02.450
a kind of collective systemic addiction to work to the
492
00:27:02.509 --> 00:27:08.519
point where depression and suicide is a problem. They're literally
493
00:27:08.539 --> 00:27:12.400
creating social programs to combat them. We walked along this
494
00:27:12.500 --> 00:27:17.519
bridge where there's pictures of delicious food and little positive
495
00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:20.650
messages beneath them. People refer to it as the suicide bridge.
496
00:27:20.910 --> 00:27:23.589
And these messages are meant to hopefully turn people around
497
00:27:23.630 --> 00:27:25.670
and put them in a good mood. They have these
498
00:27:25.710 --> 00:27:28.410
things called death cafes, which we went to in the
499
00:27:28.450 --> 00:27:32.289
episode where you literally go and simulate your own funeral.
500
00:27:32.549 --> 00:27:34.470
You lay in a casket for 12 minutes. You write
501
00:27:34.490 --> 00:27:39.059
your own eulogy, which was an incredible experience. I can
502
00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:41.000
tell you the main thing that I got out of it,
503
00:27:42.019 --> 00:27:45.160
which was, first of all, when you hear your eulogy
504
00:27:45.220 --> 00:27:48.000
at your own funeral, nobody talks about what you did.
505
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:51.789
Like they don't. They remember how much fun you had together,
506
00:27:52.150 --> 00:27:53.970
how much you made them smile, whether or not they
507
00:27:53.990 --> 00:27:59.730
liked you. They don't even bring up, you know, that
508
00:27:59.769 --> 00:28:05.130
you had this amazing podcast or TV show. And so
509
00:28:05.150 --> 00:28:08.160
it's a great reminder of what really matters. And for me,
510
00:28:08.200 --> 00:28:11.220
I kind of came out of that in a new way.
511
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:13.119
I'm like, okay, I'm really lucky that I get to
512
00:28:13.220 --> 00:28:15.599
do this purpose thing with all my work. But that's
513
00:28:15.660 --> 00:28:18.819
also kind of cheating because what I've done is By
514
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:21.569
saying all my work is purposeful, I've decided I can
515
00:28:21.589 --> 00:28:24.829
work 100% of the time because there's no line between
516
00:28:25.170 --> 00:28:28.210
my personal life and work. So now what I've been
517
00:28:28.250 --> 00:28:31.230
working on, and the pandemic has been really helpful because
518
00:28:31.269 --> 00:28:35.109
it's forced the issue, is really bifurcating the real estate
519
00:28:36.109 --> 00:28:42.099
between work and non-work. I'm forcing myself to not work
520
00:28:42.299 --> 00:28:45.200
more often. And this is the real challenge, the thing
521
00:28:45.220 --> 00:28:47.630
that I really suck at, something that I think mindfulness
522
00:28:47.650 --> 00:28:50.730
could hopefully help me with getting my mind to stop
523
00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:53.319
working when I'm not working. Cause as I'm sure, you know,
524
00:28:53.390 --> 00:28:56.380
like so often I'm with my family, but I'm just not.
525
00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:02.119
And so now I've realized that what I really am
526
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:08.420
seeking is more time for nothingness, more passivity, more time
527
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:11.819
to just be. The other night I was sitting in
528
00:29:11.859 --> 00:29:14.319
the dark eating ice cream. I don't know why, but
529
00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:16.339
I did it for many minutes and And I thought
530
00:29:16.380 --> 00:29:19.220
to myself, this is great. I didn't notice that I
531
00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:21.740
was doing this till just now. Now I should have
532
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:24.119
turned the lights on. Sure. Maybe next time I will.
533
00:29:24.539 --> 00:29:27.599
But my point is, I'm trying to learn. It's almost
534
00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:30.109
like going back to my child state. I often think
535
00:29:30.150 --> 00:29:36.430
about how playful we all were as kids and how
536
00:29:36.569 --> 00:29:40.569
untethered we were. The idea of flow didn't just apply
537
00:29:40.650 --> 00:29:44.869
to a specific interest or activity. We were in flow
538
00:29:44.910 --> 00:29:48.339
with the world, right? Like whatever got our attention, you
539
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:51.099
go play, you go do that. And I look back
540
00:29:51.339 --> 00:29:54.559
on those days with such envy and I'm like, well,
541
00:29:54.579 --> 00:29:56.700
where did that go? Because I still have my essence
542
00:29:56.740 --> 00:30:01.420
of a very happy, optimistic, playful person, but that true flow.
543
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:05.200
Now look, I'm a father, I'm a husband, I have responsibilities,
544
00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:08.299
I have work, but I think there's something about adulthood
545
00:30:08.819 --> 00:30:13.809
where we almost oppress that part of ourselves too much.
546
00:30:14.049 --> 00:30:17.190
And now it's something that I really want to reawaken,
547
00:30:17.210 --> 00:30:19.190
hopefully before it's too late. I just want to have
548
00:30:19.230 --> 00:30:21.650
better days, man. I want to have more fun. I
549
00:30:21.690 --> 00:30:24.450
like cooking and I like sitting around watching television and
550
00:30:25.509 --> 00:30:29.309
playing basketball. It just normal stuff that I feel like
551
00:30:29.349 --> 00:30:30.569
I spent so much of my time trying to get
552
00:30:30.609 --> 00:30:30.970
away from.
553
00:30:31.910 --> 00:30:33.890
You hit some of these themes in the episode where
554
00:30:33.910 --> 00:30:36.569
you go to Japan with your wife and talk about
555
00:30:37.329 --> 00:30:41.670
your sense of guilt. You had statistics about the number
556
00:30:41.710 --> 00:30:46.089
of times per day a parent feels like a bad parent.
557
00:30:46.130 --> 00:30:49.259
And I was like, wow, that's that. Yes, I feel
558
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:49.950
that all the time.
559
00:30:50.019 --> 00:30:52.740
And you talk about your own feelings about worrying whether
560
00:30:52.789 --> 00:30:55.890
you're a good enough dad and worrying about, you know,
561
00:30:56.470 --> 00:31:00.470
having this pressure to provide for the family, which then,
562
00:31:00.630 --> 00:31:03.150
of course, takes you away from the family, both physically
563
00:31:03.210 --> 00:31:07.049
and psychologically. And having a different worldview from your wife,
564
00:31:07.109 --> 00:31:09.769
who a little bit resents having to do all the
565
00:31:09.829 --> 00:31:12.109
work with the family, with the kid and the dog
566
00:31:12.150 --> 00:31:15.710
while you're, you know, providing and you both have these
567
00:31:15.750 --> 00:31:18.869
different pressures. I saw a lot of myself in that episode.
568
00:31:18.910 --> 00:31:23.710
For sure. Beyond relating to it, were there– I guess
569
00:31:23.750 --> 00:31:25.309
my question is how did you relate to it and
570
00:31:25.509 --> 00:31:27.990
how did it make you feel about– do you still
571
00:31:28.059 --> 00:31:30.119
experience those dynamics in your household or have you made
572
00:31:30.150 --> 00:31:32.759
progress on them? Both.
573
00:31:33.500 --> 00:31:36.559
Still experience all those dynamics. Mostly just sort of my
574
00:31:36.619 --> 00:31:41.400
internal guilt stuff. And we've made progress. I would say
575
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:43.880
the impact for me of you and your wife wrestle
576
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:49.720
with these issues on screen is that it normalizes it.
577
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:55.000
I'm thinking, I hear, oh, all parents have this? This dad,
578
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:57.589
who is by every measure a good dad that I
579
00:31:57.619 --> 00:32:00.109
can tell, is also telling himself a story about how
580
00:32:00.150 --> 00:32:02.569
he's a bad dad? Oh, okay, so I now feel
581
00:32:02.609 --> 00:32:05.170
better about my own junk.
582
00:32:07.210 --> 00:32:10.309
Well, you're welcome. I'm happy to normalize our shame. Do
583
00:32:10.829 --> 00:32:16.609
you guys fight about how much to discipline the kid
584
00:32:16.650 --> 00:32:19.230
and how to do it and how much independence to
585
00:32:19.269 --> 00:32:19.609
give them?
586
00:32:19.809 --> 00:32:23.900
Yes, well- The independence issue, we haven't gotten to that much.
587
00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:26.119
And I know that's the theme of the show. You
588
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:28.529
go to Japan and you see how much independence they
589
00:32:28.569 --> 00:32:31.089
give kids starting at age six. They're sent out to
590
00:32:31.450 --> 00:32:33.970
follow a kid running an errand, which is the craziest
591
00:32:33.990 --> 00:32:34.670
thing I've ever seen.
592
00:32:35.150 --> 00:32:35.670
It's insane.
593
00:32:37.269 --> 00:32:39.509
One of the great things you do in that episode
594
00:32:39.549 --> 00:32:41.569
is de-stigmatize couples therapy.
595
00:32:42.150 --> 00:32:43.809
And I'm totally on board with that.
596
00:32:43.869 --> 00:32:47.180
We've done some couples therapy until I think he basically
597
00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:48.500
fired us for being too boring.
598
00:32:48.519 --> 00:32:50.369
Yeah. That's good news.
599
00:32:50.829 --> 00:32:53.670
But we got boring because we did the therapy. So
600
00:32:53.710 --> 00:32:58.619
we don't fight too much, but we definitely have disagreements about,
601
00:32:58.700 --> 00:33:03.599
you know, I'm all like, when he's being a jerk,
602
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:06.599
you know, time out, buddy, and she'll let it go
603
00:33:06.700 --> 00:33:10.210
longer than I would. I'm a little bit more of
604
00:33:10.250 --> 00:33:13.170
a disciplinarian. So we disagree on those things, and that's tough.
605
00:33:13.849 --> 00:33:15.910
Yeah, it's tough. You know, it's so funny. I think
606
00:33:15.950 --> 00:33:20.859
at the root of parenting is... how we disagree and fight.
607
00:33:20.980 --> 00:33:24.359
It's like, to me, every challenge with parenting for me
608
00:33:25.220 --> 00:33:29.069
has been more about the marriage and how we figure
609
00:33:29.109 --> 00:33:31.789
things out together. I actually don't get a ton of
610
00:33:31.869 --> 00:33:36.190
anxiety about, is my daughter going to be okay? Am
611
00:33:36.309 --> 00:33:38.109
I going to be okay? I, for the most part,
612
00:33:38.230 --> 00:33:42.740
I feel pretty good about all that stuff. Thank God
613
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:44.140
I don't have those fears because I have plenty of
614
00:33:44.180 --> 00:33:47.660
other ones. Uh, the stuff that always is hard for
615
00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:50.369
me are the, are just my wife and I, and,
616
00:33:50.660 --> 00:33:53.160
you know, early on, all we did was fight. And,
617
00:33:53.660 --> 00:33:55.039
you know, we, you know, in fact, probably we had
618
00:33:55.059 --> 00:33:56.829
a moment this morning, not unlike the one you just
619
00:33:56.869 --> 00:34:02.329
described where my daughter kind of like took a swing
620
00:34:02.369 --> 00:34:04.589
at the nanny, like with the, like tried to slap her,
621
00:34:04.630 --> 00:34:06.569
but didn't slap her, but she did it as like
622
00:34:06.609 --> 00:34:12.079
a threatening, like, like that. And, uh, And so we
623
00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:14.980
came and talked to her and we're like, hey, and
624
00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:17.590
my attitude was we should punish her for this, right?
625
00:34:18.130 --> 00:34:19.849
She needs to know that this is not something she
626
00:34:19.869 --> 00:34:21.849
can do. And we're at a point right now where
627
00:34:21.889 --> 00:34:24.730
we're starting to wonder if we've been too lenient with her.
628
00:34:24.809 --> 00:34:27.869
We've done so much to try to talk her through everything,
629
00:34:28.380 --> 00:34:30.360
calm her down when she's crying, and then have a
630
00:34:30.420 --> 00:34:33.159
conversation with her about what happened. But we don't really
631
00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:36.159
do a lot of timeout stuff. Anyway, in that moment,
632
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:40.190
I said to my wife, I go, hmm, I started
633
00:34:40.289 --> 00:34:42.869
it by trying to diffuse any possibility that it was
634
00:34:42.929 --> 00:34:46.690
personal because she was comforting her. My daughter was crying
635
00:34:46.889 --> 00:34:49.469
and I said, I'm not saying that I have any
636
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:53.179
answers here nor any inclination, but I really wonder like,
637
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:57.260
is it better for us to hold her and calm
638
00:34:57.300 --> 00:35:00.739
her after she's done this bad thing? Or is she
639
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:06.239
crying in part because she knows that work? Yeah. And
640
00:35:06.340 --> 00:35:10.110
she's really smart and I was like, are we doing
641
00:35:10.130 --> 00:35:12.610
ourselves a disservice by comforting her right now? Should we
642
00:35:12.650 --> 00:35:16.309
maybe just let her cry? And that's a debate that
643
00:35:16.329 --> 00:35:17.949
will probably go on forever. But the way we had
644
00:35:17.989 --> 00:35:21.480
that conversation was such a testament to the progress I
645
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:24.260
think both of us have made, not only individually, but
646
00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:27.739
between ourselves. Now that said, we had a fight four
647
00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:29.500
days ago that I still don't know what it was about.
648
00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:31.900
Like sometimes I'm like, I don't know what we're talking about.
649
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:35.840
And then we're just both mad at each other. And
650
00:35:35.860 --> 00:35:39.010
then by the end, I'm just apologizing It starts with
651
00:35:39.050 --> 00:35:41.510
a false apology, which she sees as a false apology.
652
00:35:41.809 --> 00:35:45.210
Then I'm apologizing for the false apology. And then I'm
653
00:35:45.269 --> 00:35:48.619
inhabiting the character of someone who admits what they were wrong.
654
00:35:48.940 --> 00:35:50.980
And I have a deal with myself on the inside
655
00:35:51.219 --> 00:35:53.000
that we don't feel this way, but I am fully
656
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:57.119
pretending on the outside. I am sorry because all you
657
00:35:57.179 --> 00:35:58.840
want at that point is out. But then a funny
658
00:35:58.860 --> 00:36:00.960
thing happens when you apologize for the thing that you
659
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:04.750
didn't do after the apology and seeing her soft reaction,
660
00:36:04.769 --> 00:36:06.050
because my wife's just a better person than me in
661
00:36:06.070 --> 00:36:08.250
all regards. Then I look back and I'm like, oh,
662
00:36:08.329 --> 00:36:09.849
I'm so glad it went that way. And I remember
663
00:36:10.210 --> 00:36:11.789
like my new thing in a fight now is I
664
00:36:11.909 --> 00:36:14.449
try to tell myself the mantra, which I forgot this
665
00:36:14.610 --> 00:36:17.389
three days ago. But generally speaking, whenever things start to
666
00:36:17.429 --> 00:36:20.250
go south, you know, you feel it coming like vomit,
667
00:36:20.300 --> 00:36:22.579
like before it's even there, you start to feel that small.
668
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:24.099
You're like, oh, we're about to get in a fight.
669
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:27.440
Whenever that happens now, I try to tell myself this mantra,
670
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:30.860
like create a safe space, create a safe space, like
671
00:36:30.940 --> 00:36:33.320
let her know you're on her side, create a safe space.
672
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:38.690
And I've noticed how. Hmm. It just leads to such
673
00:36:38.750 --> 00:36:42.280
better outcomes. And anytime we get an argument with our spouses,
674
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:50.360
it's the ego that tends to get in the driver's seat. Yes. Yes.
675
00:36:50.659 --> 00:36:53.670
And sometimes I notice like I'm trying to tune into like,
676
00:36:53.690 --> 00:36:57.650
what do I want here? And then the embarrassing answer
677
00:36:57.670 --> 00:36:58.769
is total victory.
678
00:36:58.849 --> 00:37:01.989
Yeah. Even if it doesn't matter.
679
00:37:02.469 --> 00:37:05.349
I love what you said about like that internal progression
680
00:37:05.829 --> 00:37:09.210
paired with the external behavior around your apologies. It kind
681
00:37:09.250 --> 00:37:11.469
of reminds me a little bit of the fake it
682
00:37:11.489 --> 00:37:13.400
till you make it approach you took with pretending to
683
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:16.579
care with your parents until you actually did. That's probably
684
00:37:16.619 --> 00:37:20.420
particularly resonant for an actor. And I guess that kind
685
00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:23.599
of brings me to the bottom line takeaway I have
686
00:37:23.619 --> 00:37:26.480
for the whole show, which is It's called The Pursuit
687
00:37:26.500 --> 00:37:29.980
of Happiness, and yet it's a show about relationships. And
688
00:37:30.019 --> 00:37:36.570
then you realize, well, happiness is contingent upon relationships. Happiness
689
00:37:36.610 --> 00:37:38.929
is synonymous with good relationships.
690
00:37:40.289 --> 00:37:42.710
Well, that's not something that I thought of until you
691
00:37:42.730 --> 00:37:45.489
just now said it. And that's really interesting. I would
692
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:51.539
agree with that. It reminds me of, so before I
693
00:37:51.579 --> 00:37:53.420
met my wife, my wife and I, we've been together
694
00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:56.840
for six or seven years now. And just before I
695
00:37:56.900 --> 00:37:59.500
met her, I was going through a single guy phase
696
00:37:59.579 --> 00:38:01.400
that I should have had when I was 18, but
697
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:04.389
I didn't. And so I was having this full-on douchebag
698
00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:06.769
and it was a wonderful moment in time for me,
699
00:38:07.170 --> 00:38:11.469
but it started to feel kind of empty. And around
700
00:38:11.510 --> 00:38:14.809
that time, a close friend of mine had given me
701
00:38:14.849 --> 00:38:19.019
this Buddhist little booklet. And the main thing that this
702
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:23.199
pamphlet kind of taught me was it said that all
703
00:38:23.219 --> 00:38:25.280
books about positive psychology or whatever, they all say the
704
00:38:25.300 --> 00:38:27.579
same thing that, you know, the point of life is
705
00:38:28.019 --> 00:38:30.199
happiness and giving and blah, blah, blah, blah. But this
706
00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:32.280
one said it in a way that would really, I
707
00:38:32.300 --> 00:38:33.840
would say changed my life, which is it said that
708
00:38:34.579 --> 00:38:37.570
the way to measure one's happiness is by the time
709
00:38:37.590 --> 00:38:41.010
they've passed the extent to which they've contributed to evolution.
710
00:38:42.949 --> 00:38:46.369
And that was really revelatory for me because it really
711
00:38:46.429 --> 00:38:49.889
broke down, okay, if that's the measure of happiness is
712
00:38:49.909 --> 00:38:52.860
the extent to which you contribute to evolution, the way
713
00:38:52.900 --> 00:38:55.980
you can most contribute to evolution is directly proportional to
714
00:38:56.019 --> 00:38:58.900
the intimacy with which the people you're in contact with.
715
00:38:59.500 --> 00:39:01.809
Now, just to be clear, when you say evolution, you
716
00:39:01.829 --> 00:39:04.969
don't mean natural selection. You mean somebody's personal growth?
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00:39:05.530 --> 00:39:08.309
That's a good question. By making the world move forward
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00:39:08.530 --> 00:39:11.590
in some way. How much have you made the world
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00:39:11.650 --> 00:39:15.050
a better place, essentially? And obviously, you have the most
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00:39:15.090 --> 00:39:18.440
impact on the people that you're closest to. And from that,
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I kind of figured, oh, well, then... The highest form
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00:39:21.510 --> 00:39:26.059
of intelligence is actually not being good at math or
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00:39:26.699 --> 00:39:33.500
having any incredible skill set. It's actually confidence. And that
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00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:37.559
quote from that Buddhist pamphlet, to me, might be evidence
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00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:40.400
of what you just said. Yeah. You know, if true
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00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:42.320
happiness is derived from the extent to which you're making
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00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:45.239
the world a better place, then naturally the way you
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00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:46.639
give and make the world a better place is through
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00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:51.559
the people you're closest to. And through your relationships. Yeah.
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00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:53.619
And that's also, I mean, that's basically what the Obama
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said in that podcast. And if the Obama said it, buddy,
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00:39:59.699 --> 00:40:00.039
you know?
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00:40:00.059 --> 00:40:05.739
I had such a pleasure to meet you, although I'll
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00:40:05.780 --> 00:40:08.570
be at virtually, but much more to come, I hope.
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00:40:09.190 --> 00:40:11.150
Well, I appreciate you having me, man. I hope we
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get to do more of this.
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00:40:13.429 --> 00:40:14.190
Big thanks to Ravi.
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00:40:14.250 --> 00:40:17.409
Really appreciate him making the time for this. Go check
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00:40:17.429 --> 00:40:20.980
out his show on HBO Max. Big thanks as well
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00:40:21.019 --> 00:40:23.780
to the team who work incredibly hard to make this
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00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:26.170
show a reality three times a week or two and
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00:40:26.190 --> 00:40:27.949
a half times a week, depending on how you count it.
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00:40:28.429 --> 00:40:31.369
Samuel Johns is our senior producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our producer.
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00:40:31.449 --> 00:40:34.289
Our sound designers are Matt Boynton and Anya Shashik from
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00:40:34.369 --> 00:40:38.199
Ultraviolet Audio. Maria Rotel is our production coordinator. We get
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00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:41.179
massive doses of guidance and wisdom and insight from our
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00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:44.739
TPH colleagues, such as Jen Point and Nate Tobey and
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00:40:44.780 --> 00:40:47.329
Ben Rubin and Liz Levin. And finally, big thank you,
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00:40:47.710 --> 00:40:49.989
as always, to my guys from ABC News, Ryan Kessler
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00:40:50.050 --> 00:40:54.760
and Josh Kohan. We'll see you on Wednesday for Bhante Budarakita.
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00:40:54.940 --> 00:40:59.820
He's a fascinating, fascinating dude. As I mentioned at the
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00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:02.519
top of the show, he's a Buddhist monk who survived
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00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:03.619
an assassination attempt.
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He's got an incredible story. That's on Wednesday. See you then.