Ben Abbatangelo - First Nations Referendum on the Voice to Parliament

WEBVTT
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.359
This podcast is brought to you by On Track Studio.
00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:14.960
Welcome to Yarning Up, a podcast that showcases stories of First Nations excellence.
00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:23.120
To help us learn and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future.
00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:31.440
I'm your host, proud Barbara Moman and founder of Blackwater Coaching and Consulting, Caroline Cowell.
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:43.200
This podcast was taped on the sacred, stolen, and unceded Aboriginal lands of the Warundari people of the Kulin Nation.
00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:55.679
I pay my deepest respects to them, my elders, your elders, and all owners of country of this beautiful place that we call home.
00:00:56.719 --> 00:01:04.319
Well, today I'm really excited because I'm sitting down with Gunai Kernai, Wadabolic Man, Benny Apentangello.
00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:06.879
Welcome to Yarning Up, My Bro.
00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:09.359
It's um a pleasure to connect with you.
00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:11.599
It's a delight to be here, Caroline.
00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:29.359
It's been a while since we've had the chance to see each other face to face, but no, I'm very grateful to be here because you know, conversations, these conversations are the ones that stimulate me the most and I think are incredibly pertinent and important, particularly the circumstances of today.
00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:31.359
So thank you for bringing me on.
00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:33.200
Thank you.
00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:39.439
Yes, you and I had the pleasure of um connecting before and working together.
00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:42.560
Gosh, it feels like an eternity ago.
00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:53.519
The the world has moved so quickly, but you and I um had the pleasure of going and and yarning with some young fellas in schools around the treaty process and and what that all entailed.
00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:56.079
I think it might have been around 2017.
00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:57.519
Maybe don't quote me.
00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:03.840
But um, yeah, it's nice to sort of come around full circle and you know, um, and connect with you again in this way.
00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:04.560
So thank you.
00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:06.480
Although I hope it's not a full circle.
00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:14.639
I hope it's kind of this is just the I don't know, another 80 degrees around the circle, and there's plenty more collaboration down the track.
00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:16.000
That's right.
00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:19.439
Or an ongoing circle, you're absolutely right.
00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:34.960
Well, bros, before we get into today's conversation, there's a lot that I really wanted to unpack with you around what we're all talking about right now, the referendum, and I want to hear about your journey and what's coming up for you.
00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:42.639
But before we dive into that, can you tell the listeners who you are, what's your mob, and where did you grow up?
00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:43.360
Of course.
00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:54.960
Well, yeah, as you mentioned in the intro, importantly, I'm a gunner, and I'm watchabalic man, man through experience, not through law, which I think is an important detail to note.
00:02:55.360 --> 00:03:03.599
I always find the questions of like who you are really interesting because I find that it we default to what we do.
00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:10.400
Um who I am, I feel I am some sort of manifestation of my relations.
00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:17.840
Um, I feel like I am, you know, someone that's driven towards action and impact.
00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:23.199
And the I find different creative depositories to be able to do that.
00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:54.719
So I write, I do some stuff with television, um, not because I see myself as a TV dude, but I'm interested in storytelling, in film, in story holding, in story making, and yeah, more importantly, contributing in a way that is on our terms and underpinned with some sort of cultural integrity that is hopefully helpful not just for you know my families and the communities that I'm you know interconnected to, but more broadly Aboriginal and Toshlander people as a whole.
00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:58.319
So yeah, maybe that's enough of a I don't know.
00:03:58.560 --> 00:03:59.360
Who's this guy?
00:03:59.520 --> 00:03:59.680
Yeah.
00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:01.360
I mean it is a loaded question.
00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:02.800
It's like, yeah, who are you?
00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:04.960
Well, it's like, well, I'm still working it out.
00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:08.319
Which which version and evolution are we talking?
00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:09.919
Totally, totally.
00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:12.560
But that's a little bit about, yeah, a little bit about me.
00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:23.839
And I love that how you've spoken about this notion of storytelling and how it transcends your personal interactions and then how that's being played out, you know, on our screens now.
00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:26.879
We're seeing more and more of you, which we're all loving.
00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:33.439
So, yeah, what a beautiful and profound way to answer a not so easy question of who we are.
00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:52.560
Well, I appreciate you say that you're loving it because it's film, television, public discourse, uh, writing, there's you know, it's viewed and engaged, you know, there's a lot of people that engage with it, but really the only feedback that I'm worried about is that of you know those that I'm accountable to.
00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:55.199
So um that's forever the benchmark.
00:04:55.360 --> 00:05:02.560
And if if that's the feedback, then um thank you, and I will try and continue to do well at whatever it is that I'm doing.
00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:06.240
Yeah, no, I think I I I do want to pick up on this.
00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:30.639
I think you're doing an amazing job in not shying away from the really difficult conversations, which I imagine would be challenging in any new profession to find out where is that line of where I have influence and agency over this, or and especially given that you are a black fella in a predominantly white industry covering predominantly black issues.
00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:35.759
So I mean, all of that I think you're doing a great job at holding the line.
00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:37.519
So yeah, I appreciate that.
00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:44.480
But we'll hold the line for a little bit longer and then we'll we'll we'll rub it out and then we'll redraw some new lines.
00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:46.160
That's a great way to look at it.
00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:50.240
Because yeah, it is it can be a challenge, right?
00:05:50.319 --> 00:06:07.120
And particularly the things that I find challenging is the existing editorial guidelines that are in place that often really violently actually remove objectivity from us as Aboriginal and Toyshunder people.
00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:12.079
You know, we can never have the objective view on anything, right?
00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:22.319
It's almost that the vantage point from underneath the boot is just that, and the objective perspective comes from those who are wearing it.
00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:35.839
And so finding ways to yeah, to be upfront and transparent around, you know, those doctrines and notions of objectivity and subjectivity is something that is constantly a struggle.
00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:48.000
But yeah, first and foremost, I'm always trying to give you know the microphone and privilege the voices of those who have been neglected from objectivity, if that makes sense.
00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:48.879
Totally.
00:06:49.120 --> 00:07:01.120
They're the voices you could argue we as Australians uh working through this reckoning process need to hear more from our grassroots people, people who yeah, have been silenced.
00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:05.439
So yeah, I there's a lot that I really want to unpack about that.
00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:19.600
But I guess you know, staying with this notion of of voice and voices, I guess you'd be living under a rock if you didn't know that this year all Australians are going to be asked to uh partake in a referendum.
00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:35.839
So this year, at this stage, the question that will be posed to all Australians is do you support an alteration to the constitution that establishes an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voice?
00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:42.800
So we put the question to our listeners to find out what they thought about the voice.
00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:48.399
And the answers were mixed to say the very least.
00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:52.560
Here's what some of you had to say about the voice.
00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:54.800
My name is Myron Jacimos.
00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:57.040
I'm from Yordi Order.
00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:03.519
I feel that it doesn't make a huge difference in my everyday life.
00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:13.839
But at the same time, it could be beneficial down the future for the younger generation.
00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:19.360
I say with the vote probably a yes for me.
00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:23.680
But uh it can't really do much for me.
00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:28.000
I don't think I am a proud green woman.
00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:37.919
I identify as white with Aboriginal heritage because I didn't grow up in culture and I didn't identify until later.
00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:42.559
I don't feel like I have the right to vote on this important issue.
00:08:43.120 --> 00:09:00.720
I want to be a good ally, but I don't know what my local community feels, and I don't know what my broader community feels, and I hear so many mixed messages, and when I talk about community, I talk about my black community.
00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:13.039
Um, I have Aboriginal grandchildren and children, so I really want a voice, and I'm scared that if we vote no, that will be an excuse for the Conservatives to never offer this opportunity again.
00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:24.639
But I don't think there's been enough consultation, I don't think there's enough information, and I don't think it's clear on how we be a good ally in these circumstances.
00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:38.480
I think we need a treaty, but I really hope that more information and consultation occurs so that it's clear what we need to do, because I don't know what to do right now.
00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:41.600
So, some interesting stuff to say the least.
00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:42.480
Hey bros.
00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:59.440
And it is a topic that has been subject to much healthy discourse and debate, something that is definitely ruminating in my circles, in my family chats, in uh my my conversations with my sisters.
00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:03.759
And so I want to just check in with you, bras, in the lead up to the voice.
00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:07.679
I firstly, I guess, how are you feeling about the process to date?
00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:09.200
What comes up for you?
00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:13.039
Hmm, I have not been living under a rock.
00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:37.679
I feel like I have been um I've had a lot of mud attached to my body with this, and every time I think about the referendum and some of the discourse surrounding it, what it means, um, the ramifications, the possibilities, I just I feel myself constricting and I don't know, it's like my skin wants to fall off my body.
00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:41.840
So I think it's ignor I want to acknowledge that first and foremost.
00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:59.200
Um secondly, there's as you as you mentioned, Caroline, there's a lot of different uh opinion perspective amongst mob, and that's who in this conversation I want to speak to and um and position as the primary audience.
00:10:59.279 --> 00:10:59.600
Yeah.
00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:10.080
Um, because I do believe that we have been starved of you know having these conversations on our own terms, on our own ways, and you know, in a way where we don't have to explain ourselves.
00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:14.960
But I am I I feel like it's going to be a very long year.
00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:26.879
And the way that the things are playing out, irrespective of which way the referendum falls, I am really struggling to see how we win from this.
00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:39.440
Um and you know, I I have a great reverence and respect for a lot of the people within the binary of the Yes Camp and that are, you know, pushing this reform forward.
00:11:39.679 --> 00:12:00.159
But when I think about where our communities are, and I think about the weight of history, and I try and take all of the sums and parts into context, I'm I'm really grappling to understand how this apocalyptic world that we're living in can be reformed.
00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:10.080
I'm really struggling to understand how this is just fair, apt enough in the grand scheme of things.
00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:15.279
So that's that's a couple of initial, you know, thoughts from my end.
00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:29.600
And the voice is predicated on these governments and this state and this system being able to rid itself and cure itself from the insatiable contempt that it has for blackfellas.
00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:51.120
And and I I I I'm confused as to and challenged by the notion that it is being positioned as redemption, you know, for mainstream Australia to redeem themselves of all of the horrific things that this place has done and continues to do.
00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:58.480
So I might take a breath, but there's some they're they're they're they're the first thoughts that come to mind when you pose that question.
00:12:58.799 --> 00:12:59.200
Totally.
00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:23.440
And I think I guess I'm just acknowledging all of that because I feel that we're being positioned to answer, like as you say, a binary question or a simple proposition of yes and no to something that really requires a healthy level of discernment and a healthy level of unpacking about what this means.
00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:34.799
And I I must admit, you know, in thinking about proposing this question to you, I myself felt my my um like I had a visceral response to this.
00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:39.279
I I don't even feel fully safe speaking about my opinions on this issue.
00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:52.240
As a coach who works with First Nations people, this topic continues to be pervasive in our work and their, you know, everyone's lived experience is compounded by by what's happening in this social discourse at the moment.
00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:56.000
And so I felt it was just really important to acknowledge it.
00:13:56.159 --> 00:14:12.159
And I share, I share a similar sentiment, and I I'd be lying if I felt any closer to an absolute answer because I just I don't know if there is a binary yes or no to some of these complexities.
00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:30.720
And I agree, I feel like this has been sort of positioned to us like the you know, the silver bullet, the you know, the the the guiding beacon that will really eradicate all of the things which have been exacerbated under the colony, and it just sort of negates them from that responsibility.
00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:38.720
So I feel that there's many things that I feel that I've observed through the process, and I'm just so deeply conflicted.
00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:58.559
Um yeah, I think in terms of the process itself, if we just stay to the process in this instant instance, I guess, you know, in Victoria we have approximately 58,000 black followers, and only 49 were um consulted initially for this process in 2021.
00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:02.720
And at that stage, we were still very much dealing with the pandemic.
00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:06.399
We had just come out of, you know, movements like Black Lives Matter.
00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:14.879
People weren't thinking about their aspirations and what a future Australia could look like because we were still very much in survival mode.
00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:26.320
And so I feel that people haven't been given the time and space to feel empowered and informed about this, given the what was happening in in people's lives.
00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:32.799
And I think that the challenge is is I think I I oscillate between sentiment and action.
00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:36.159
And, you know, I was yarning with some of my elders about it.
00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:53.120
That's usually where I go firstly, and you know, they were sharing with me that they were privy to the they were a part of the 1967 referendum, and they believed at that stage that they would be free of emancipation, of all of the the social ills.
00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:57.440
And you know, I don't have to tell you how that's all played out, I guess.
00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:08.320
Um, and so I think it's it's healthy for us as black followers in a modern contemporary society where we all have access to each other to have a healthy level of discernment.
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:17.039
And I think we all can uh agree on the the sentiment, which is we can't wait for the goodwill of government.
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:25.759
And while we have a a fairly representative parliament now with black fellas in all factions, um that's not forever.
00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:30.559
You know, we don't know what the parliament will look like in 10-15 years.
00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:35.039
And so I feel like that notion itself, a couple of things, and sorry to interrupt.
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:36.240
No, please.
00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:38.240
But history is alive, right?
00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:44.879
I feel like the more that I'm you know I'm finding myself looking in the rear view much more of late.
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:48.399
And we fight damn hard to go to the well.
00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:52.960
And every time we've gone to the well throughout history, they've pushed us in, right?
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:58.000
It's been positioned, like you've said, as this big leap forward.
00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:06.079
And the reality has constantly been it's been an arduous incrementalist step forward, and then 150 steps back.
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:06.480
Yeah.
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.400
Um, so that's kind of the reality.
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:24.960
And I feel like the the the notion as well of, and I don't want to be disingenuous as and placing this referendum as the end point because it's not the end point, um, although the discourse has constricted it to what appears to be a start and an end point.
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:30.720
But, you know, I don't I actually don't believe in the goodwill of this government.
00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.279
Like I don't believe in the goodwill of any government.
00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.279
I haven't seen any goodwill.
00:17:35.519 --> 00:18:07.039
And I feel like the notion of being an advisory body to if this is the best that we're going to get, when they're still destroying our lands, they're still dispossessing us of all of the things that sustain us, they're still caging 10-year-olds in solitary confinement, when they're still deciding to keep our mob in poverty, when they're refusing to build adequate amounts of social housing, when they um consistently circumnavigate these, you know, real questions and philosophies of justice and sovereignty.
00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:09.200
Like, that's not goodwill to me, that's cowardice.
00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:22.240
Um and I feel I feel infuriated that we have the rest of this country that is once again put in the position to decide our futures.
00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:22.480
Yeah.
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:27.279
To decide and the excitement of it, like, why don't you feel ashamed?
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:27.680
Yeah.
00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:33.519
Why don't you feel ashamed that you are being asked uh to decide our futures?
00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:50.480
Like, I don't the more that we Yeah, even the way, even the way that it is positioned is of such a benevolence, like it's sort of it, it sort of it rings true to me of like Audrey Lord, you know, you the master's tools can't dismantle the master's house.
00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:58.160
And it's like even propositioning the question to Australians, should we have a voice over our own affairs?
00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:21.359
I just feel is so contrary to the self-determination under the UNDRIP, all the work that we've been talking about treaty, which is if you strip back these buzzwords, it's Aboriginal ownership, it's reparations, it's restitution, it's you know, it's gritty work that requires a party to yeah, give up something, not just be sort of like passive, yes, we'll say yes, you can have a voice.
00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:26.640
I think the messaging and the comms around this has been has really let it down.
00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.960
And I think it's been so benevolent the way that it has been propositioned.
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:37.920
I think I personally, and I guess I want to be honest in saying that I have not formed a view.
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:42.000
Um, I'm still very much wading through the information.
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:47.680
I'm listening a lot to um people who are in the no, the yes, the in-between.
00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:53.200
I'm trying to take on all perspectives, but then also sit back and then say, well, what does this mean for me?
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:59.119
And I feel that I could support a voice of us to be enshrined in the constitution.
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:13.519
I think that is a level of pro foolproofing, you know, to quote unquote goodwill, but to to foolproof us in this place as the rightful first peoples of this country, which most people would understand, but there are still people who don't.
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:20.480
I guess I get really unclear when we start talking about the actual voice and the mechanism.
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:28.400
I think, you know, in Australia, a lot of our old ones have fought so hard for through for treaties and recognition through land rights movements.
00:20:28.480 --> 00:20:32.880
You know, my family fought for 15 years, it broke up our families.
00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:44.559
We've jumped through a huge amount of hoops to be recognized as sovereign people of Baram country, which we've only just started to be able to get access to that land.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:56.720
And I guess I share concerns with putting another independent bureaucracy over the top of these existing grassroots structures that have existed for so long.
00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:01.039
You know, how do these, how will the voice interact with those existing groups?
00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:12.720
How will it exist within the context, say, in Victoria, where we've got a First People's Assembly, which is a democratically elected quasi-chamber of parliament as it stands?
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.200
I mean, what how do how does that interact?
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:16.480
No one can tell us.
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:19.039
What are the veto and influence powers?
00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:21.039
Like, what is the mandate of this group?
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:26.480
And I guess we we can say, or what I'm hearing is, well, we don't know yet until it's it's up.
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:34.720
But we do know what sits in a federal, state, and and local government mandate and what types of decisions would be made at that level.
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:40.559
Not everything is up for grabs within the context of the federal and state um treaties or budgets.
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:49.359
So I think that some of the messaging really needs to be clear is like this is what we don't know unequivocally, and this is what we kind of know.
00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:59.359
And I think the absence of this information has really created this vacuum of um people who are just feeling so fearful to even speak on it.
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:07.200
Like Not even whether they're active in the discussions, but just to even formulate their own opinions right now feels so unsafe.
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:08.079
So Yeah.
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:13.920
And it is that is a challenge for me as well, irrespective of if the yes vote gets up.
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:32.160
I've got a couple of hundred years of um proof points to suggest that giving a parliament the power to create what this model actually looks, feels, functions like is not a wise choice for us to be making.
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.559
I don't believe that we should be subservient.
00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:53.279
And and on the recognition thing as well, like I want us to, I want them to come to us and understand why we should be recognizing them and recognizing this state of affairs that has been imposed on Aboriginal and Toshanda people who, if we zoom out, black fellas have been here, and we use the analogy of a 24-hour clock.
00:22:53.440 --> 00:23:02.240
Black fellas have been here for the entirety of the 24 hours, and these other you know groups of people have been here for what, a matter of 25 seconds?
00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:04.160
Yeah, 35 seconds, yeah.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:14.640
And somehow they're at best positioned to know what is in the best interest of our communities and of these living lands, waters, and skies, right?
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:28.160
Like, you know, I I can see the body being constricted to providing advice, and I've provided so much advice to so many different groups that never gets listened to.
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:29.119
We've all done it.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:29.599
Yeah.
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:36.160
And, you know, I can see it being restricted to health crime, you know, to incarceration.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:40.960
Like, what about taxes and all these other things that impact our lives?
00:23:41.119 --> 00:24:05.440
You know, how are we going to have a say on restoring the forever economies rather than being locked out from the decision making that is designed to ensure that these economies continue to grow and grow and grow and grow and grow, which is incompatible with what we know to be the forever, you know, to incompatible with the forever economies that we are the founders of, that we're the number one shareholders of.
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:07.119
So I'm I'm totally conflicted.
00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:10.160
We transcend the binaries of yes and no.
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:15.440
Um, I think we are, you know, big picture, deserving of so much more.
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:25.839
And all I'll say is that there's a lot to play out, and I'm continue to I'm going to continue to engage in good faith and trying to unpack and understand everything that's in front of us.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:41.039
But what I do know is that now is the time for grassroots communities to be organizing, to be communicating, to be investing in the fire that has kept us alive, that has kept us alive and surviving and at times thriving.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:49.440
Um, you know, I think we now is the time to be doing that, to be active within our communities at a local, you know, and and national level.
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:52.480
Um yeah, gosh, so much.
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:54.400
I I couldn't agree with you more.
00:24:54.559 --> 00:25:02.880
I think what we saw with Invasion Day rallies is a marker that people are willing to walk the talk now.
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:13.119
And um, I know if I was a politician and I saw 80,000 people, you know, my constituents rocking up with their feet on a day like that, I'd be a bit nervous.
00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.200
So I think we're we are waking up.
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:21.440
And I think just to to try our best to close the loop on this ongoing topic, which is just really hard to achieve.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:32.720
But I I like that the way that you've thought about this is that, you know, as black followers, we have one of the oldest jurisdictions and ways of, I think it's the oldest judisprudence that we have.
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:40.400
We have our ways of knowing, being doing through alloy, through ways of interpersonal interconnectivity.
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:49.839
And rather than yeah, being doctrinated to assimilate, yet again, that that that that appreciation for for that has lost.
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:51.519
It's lost its teeth, hasn't it?
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:53.359
So well it's it's exactly that.
00:25:53.440 --> 00:26:00.079
I mean, do we does this support us and our rightful ways of self-governing?
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:05.200
Does this, as Amy Maguire has written about, does this fight racism?
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:18.240
You know, does this I mean these are the questions that I'm asking myself because you know, being absorbed into these structures, into these bureaucracies suffocates us.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:29.599
And you know, the the voice to parliament and the upcoming referendum is predicated on the fact that emancipation is found by closing ranks in on what exists rather than stepping away.
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:39.839
And I feel that the opportunity, the creativity, you know, the emancipatory doctrines uh form themselves and exist by stepping away.
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:43.039
Um so that's one perspective.
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:46.799
It's um I'm thinking about this a lot as we all are.
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:52.720
And um, you know, I hope that we can continue to have these good faith conversations amongst each other.
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:58.960
And at the end of this whole sequence, that we don't become even more fractured.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:26:59.279
Yeah.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:15.519
You know, that we can have different politics, we can have different theories of change, yeah, but ultimately at the end of it, we can still look in look each other in the eye with love and know that we are all trying to find the best pathway forward in the most convoluted colony of them all.
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:16.160
Exactly.
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:22.400
That wants to continue to dispossess and disenfranchise and cause this sort of division.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:30.720
And it is a nice reminder that we are, even though we might be a little bit cracked and go about it in our own ways, that we are all on the same team here.
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:33.599
Yeah, we all have a right to ask these questions.
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:42.079
I guess, bro, you are living up in Larrakia country in Darwin, and I know that you have been out doing some work up in Alice Springs at the moment.
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:50.240
But I'm curious, you know, through your work and traveling around, what are you hearing from communities on this issue?
00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:54.559
Is it is it even is it something that is being discussed where you go?
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.640
Yeah, what are some of the sentiments that you've heard?
00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:09.359
Yeah, directly and indirectly, and there's a um as this conversation and your next guests that you'll have on, I'm sure over the course of the next 12 months there'll be other perspectives and positions.
00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:20.880
But I'm finding that there's more indirect conversation about, you know, how do we take control over our own affairs at a local level?
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:40.960
And you know, I just got back, well, I'm in NAM at the moment, but I've been in Alice Springs over the last few weeks and looking at the calamity that has been created by 15 years of authoritative race-based controls that are imposed on a very select group of individuals.
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:41.519
Right.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:29:02.240
And, you know, I was at a community forum in Alice Springs last week where there was mob coming in from all of the art stations, travelling hundreds of kilometres, to sit down and continue that really ancient grassroots tradition of coming together and to discuss the challenges and opportunities that these communities face.
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:27.440
And I'm not sure there's there's a lot of, you know, particularly, and I I'm not from the NT, so I don't want to position myself as a spokesperson that's talking on behalf of them, but my observations were that the weight of government intervention and control over the course of over decades, but has, you know, culminated quite severely over the last 15 years through the Northern Territory Intervention, is weighing on these communities very heavily.
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:38.000
And, you know, as a case study, the Northern Territory Intervention went against all of the recommendations, all of the council, all of the advice, all of the inquiries.
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:54.880
It was a fabrication and it was a land grab, you know, and it was not only the Northern Territory intervention itself, but its expansion under the stronger futures legislation also went against all of the community's demands, desires, aspirations.
00:29:55.119 --> 00:30:07.519
So when I go to these communities and I I listen attentively, I listen with curiosity, with an open heart, I try and, you know, cross the line and stand next to them and look out at their world rather than looking in at them.
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:26.240
It's hard to it's hard to imagine how the voice and a and an advisory body is going to be the antidote to these really draconian, dystopic, apocalyptic systems and realities that have been imposed on them.
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:27.440
Yeah, wow.
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:37.680
Gosh, that would be probably a very groundbreaking and probably um once-in-a-lifetime piece of work to be privy to those really sacred conversations.
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:45.440
Because you're right, I guess we are seeing the fallout of how abhorrent the Northern Territory intervention really was.
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:54.079
And that the these these mobs, these beautiful, diverse family groups and mobs, you know, having this chance to come together and talk about what it means.
00:30:54.240 --> 00:31:02.559
Yeah, it does put things into perspective about where we all sit in out within the context of our own privileges, within our own communities.
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:12.559
And yeah, how can something like a national voice really speak to the diversity of what's happening in these very diverse communities with many family groups?
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:14.319
Yeah, interesting.
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:17.359
I'm gonna put a question to you controversially.
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:18.079
Yes.
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:31.440
Um, if I may be so bold, and you might not be there, but what is the opportunity with the yes if we were to um take away all of the deficiencies that we've observed in the process?
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:37.920
Because I also do believe there is no perfect process in this very violent place.
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:45.119
You know, what what is it, what is the opportunity that we do have, do you feel, if we do say yes to this?
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:50.000
Well, I think I understand the rationale that underpins the voice.
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:56.079
I I I recognize the theory of change of nothing about us without us, right?
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:00.319
In in really simplistic forms and at risk of oversimplifying.
00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:13.279
I think having a body in place that is giving advice to laws and legislation consistently may provide better outcomes, right?
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:24.000
In some of the laws and legislations that affect our lives and create the rules and for how we operate and how we interact and how we orientate as a society.
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:27.759
So I can see the the methodology for the permanency of that.
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:36.720
And then also I can understand the methodology of having a body in place that can negotiate the treaty processes.
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:51.440
Um what I don't what I just don't understand with those things is though, it talks a lot about you know the the the yes proponents of the voice talk about um structural power and that the voice brings structural power, which I personally disagree with.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:33:06.240
I don't I don't see how an ad an advisory voice, you know, I I don't see at the end of this referendum where power currently resides, I I also at the end at the end of the rep the referendum, I can't see it rescinding either.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:15.519
Um so I'm not sure, I don't quite understand the methodology of saying this gives us structural power to be able to negotiate on a more equal footing.
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:30.559
And then also again on the nothing about us without us, we've been through inquiries, royal commissions, on the top of cop cars, you know, from prison cells, you know, from our community-controlled organizations, from the grassroots at invasion day rallies.
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.240
We've been saying what we want.
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:32.799
Yeah.
00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:38.000
You know, and none of it has been acted upon in good faith.
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:46.480
So do I think the yes vote will result in better outcomes within policies that affect our lives?
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:47.359
It has to.
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:51.119
But the question is, will it be enough?
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:53.279
Will it change enough?
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:53.839
Yeah.
00:33:54.079 --> 00:34:02.079
Um so will it mean that more money gets better directed and allocated to those organizations that are doing the work?
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:03.039
Probably.
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:05.279
But again, is it enough?
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:11.119
Does it contribute to self-governing structures and autonomy at a local and regional level?
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:12.000
I'm not sure.
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:14.320
So, geez, Caroline, you're so bold.
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:21.920
I mean, I and I want to I'm trying to be as honest as I can because I don't I don't want to I don't want to flinch in these conversations.
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:27.679
And it's like I've said, we we all come at this wanting the best.
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:32.239
We all come at this with the ambition and motivation for change.
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:34.400
But this is just my viewpoint.
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:45.119
This is how I'm analyzing things and what my um what my understanding is of of of what's in front of us and the consequences of these decisions that we are being tasked with making.
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:46.320
Yeah, totally.
00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:48.559
And I I really respect your honesty.
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:56.559
And yeah, I think it is important with the information that we have in this moment, these are our feelings, and things do change, people do change.
00:34:56.719 --> 00:34:57.840
But I think, yeah, you're right.
00:34:58.000 --> 00:34:59.599
What is going to change?
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:01.119
Will it be enough?
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:05.280
And on whose terms, I think is really pertinent to this.
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:13.840
Is you know, arguably, we've moved away from the big homogenous sort of national, even peak bodies and structures.
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:17.840
We've actually gone more and more into our tribal family, clan groups.
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:37.199
And so this idea that putting in a bureaucratic process to rather than do the work on the ground, this is the thing where I keep going back on in my work, working in um in burnout and organizations and trying to change the way we view our relationships with ourselves at work.
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:51.920
Yeah, I guess I always think about social change, real social change, is about excavating more and more and more of the layers and intersectionalities between issues rather than looking for the simple answer.
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:55.920
It's actually about taking more and more things into the into consideration.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:59.440
And is this a red herring just to focus on something?
00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:10.400
Or are we really, you know, once this is appointed and let's say there is a yes, you know, and then when the work starts, are we gonna be prepared to take more and more and more into consideration?
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:11.840
And is this a vessel?
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:13.119
Is it the only vessel?
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:16.239
And if not, what what what complements this?
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:20.480
These are all very big, big questions and topics to uncover.
00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:26.159
Yeah, and but but we're gonna come out of it very bruised and because I'm already feeling it.
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:40.400
I'm already feeling it and have been feeling it, and again, we are just the football that you know, the or the ping-pong ball that the left and right of politics can, you know, get in an endless rally with.
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:56.320
And that's the thing that really pains me with this is that we are, you know, once again have been absorbed by other vested interests, and you know, each of them are just trying to outflank each other, and it's our lives that um they're using to do that.
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:57.199
And I hate it.
00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:00.559
Yeah, we've been political porn since way back, you know.
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:01.280
Way back.
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:08.320
You know, Labour this was a huge political platform in order for them to swing votes.
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:14.079
So I think these are really important conversations, and as you say, just beginning.
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:42.000
I think switching is slightly, but I mean it I want to touch on something you mentioned before, um, and I guess your your concept of this, because uh in your work, you you absolutely don't shy away from the big topics and getting on national TV and calling out things like you know, systemic racism, institutional racism, um, I imagine would be difficult at times, important work, but with not without its challenges.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:47.360
You recently did a segment on the project covering the Dondale Youth Detention Centre.
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:53.599
And for people who don't know, it is a abhorrent place that locks up our young people.
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:55.840
I think the ages are 10 to 17.
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:02.000
They have come under huge scrutiny over the years for their mistreatment, they spit hood, tear gas.
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:07.199
It's it's an awful place where our young people do not belong in the first place.
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:10.639
We are one of the most incarcerated people on the planet.
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:29.039
Arguably, you know, uh when we put in the Royal Death Incustody Report in the 1990s, the 400 plus recommendations 30 something years ago, you know, if those things um were enacted and our voices were listened to, you know, we might have seen a different trajectory or as what we're seeing now.
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:40.400
So I guess in your piece, you use this terminology around you described the colony as having an apocalyptic love affair with stealing and jailing First Nations kids.
00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:43.679
Pretty powerful language.
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:51.280
I want to just unpack, you know, where like can you expand on this idea further for people, what that actually means?
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:51.599
Yeah.
00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:52.159
Yeah.
00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:56.719
Well, we are we are the most incarcerated people on the planet.
00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:07.920
And, you know, in the Northern Territory, the the way that police and other agencies surveil our communities and our families is horrific.
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.800
Um, as someone that lives up there.
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:23.280
But you know, all things considered, that that that is the best use of the English language to describe the relationship between Aboriginal and Tosh Honda people and this system of Australia.
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:31.119
We talk with reverence and about the stolen generations, but there are more kids in out-of-home care today than ever before.
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:33.440
We are more incarcerated than ever before.
00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:36.719
We are arguably the sickest that we've ever been.
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:41.360
I mean, all of the social determinants point to an absolute calamity.
00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:46.239
And we are very much living in an apocalyptic time.
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:51.920
And, you know, people will look at me and go, oh, but you're on television or you're doing this, you're doing that.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:55.039
It's like, no, none of us are free until we're all free.
00:39:55.280 --> 00:40:05.920
Like I I can't I can't unsee and look past the injustices that are happening, you know, to my family, to my community, just because I've got a roof over my head.
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:06.320
Okay.
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:19.519
And, you know, we've had countless inquiries, countless royal commissions, um, countless inflection points, and they've all eventuated in a further expansion of the same behavior.
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:30.239
None of these inflection points have evolved into a reckoning or into a sincere realization and to a change of behavior.
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:35.920
They have only ever amounted to more destruction, to more dystopia.
00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:42.880
And, you know, our our children are, you know, they're the they're the heartbeat of our communities, of our existence.
00:40:43.119 --> 00:41:03.280
And the fact that this place right across the country just has this yeah, archaic love affair for stripping them from their mother's teets, from stealing them from their families, from putting them in maximum security adult prisons that were made in the 80s.
00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:14.159
You've got children that are in solitary confinement, who are 12 years of age, who are sitting in solitary confinement for weeks on end for like 20 hours a day.
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:18.800
And all of it is under the guise of reform.
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:23.760
All of it is under the guise of government stepping in and doing the right thing.
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:36.880
Of them helping us, of them, you know, uh of them lifting us up out of the circumstances that they not only imposed on us, but that they continue to reproduce.
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:46.480
So that's what I mean by an archaic love affair, you know, for stealing and jailing our children.
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:51.519
And it's important for me when I use my time with these publications.
00:41:51.679 --> 00:42:08.239
I don't believe in representation because I will never go on to these shows or take up an opportunity that window dresses and that has a black or a brown face on your screen talking about the Kardashians.
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:08.800
Right.
00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:20.079
I will only ever use these depositories to really press in on the tension points that are hurting the entirety of this continent and the islands that are connected to it.
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:28.320
And those tension points are a necessary sequence and link towards transformation.
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:37.760
And this place has a condition of wanting to circumnavigate it or circumnavigate it.
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:41.840
And you know, I want to confront it, we all want to confront it.
00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:59.840
And the more that we can confront it with sincerity, with integrity, you know, I hope, or the theory of change is that we can have a better understanding of these systems, of these outcomes, and more importantly, that we can take significant steps towards addressing and eradicating them.
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:00.480
Wow.
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:42.639
I'm just I I guess I'm just taking all of that in because I think well, firstly, maybe as a follow-up question to that, I mean, and I I guess I I I echo all of the sentiment that you've shared around this notion that still white is right, you know, which is that white supremacy, which is the way that we have looked after and nourished our kins and our communities for 80,000 years, is just discarded in in the white supremacy system where their method is right and it really it fails to not only, I mean, not only on the punitive level does it does it we see it at the systemic, you know, and these are kids, right?
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:58.000
Like these we we sometimes even as black followers we we internalize the the narrative or the doctrine about stats and facts that you know people's families and kids are still being you know disrupted and destroyed in 2023.
00:43:58.159 --> 00:43:59.840
Um we're still looking up 10-year-olds.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:04.400
We have an epidemic of stolen kids that are still happening.
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:16.480
And you're right, there is this notion that this was then and this is now, and it's kind of this utopian split, but the colonial project is very much ongoing and it's very sophisticated now.
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:29.039
It is like and and and it's also under the guise of them bringing civility to us.
00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:34.800
Like there is nothing civil about the control and the control.
00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:51.440
I mean, spending a million dollars a year, you know, give or take, on putting a young adolescent in an environment that that just breaks them, you know, turns them into people that they do not want to be is like insane.
00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:52.239
Yeah.
00:44:52.559 --> 00:45:03.199
Like why could like imagine we were literally committed to restoring our communities in the same way that the commitment is to destroy them.
00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:03.920
Yeah.
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:04.480
Yeah.
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:06.320
It is mind-boggling.
00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:08.079
Yeah, absolutely.
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:09.280
Absolutely.
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:16.559
And I think you know, prisons are the I mean in Australia, they're in Victoria, they're private and institutions.
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:29.920
They make so much money while people are largely in there without access to health care, without access to it's it's not a great place to be for anyone, especially our young people.
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:34.960
And also a lot of these fellas are unsentenced, they're on remand.
00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:42.719
So they haven't actually been convicted of anything yet, and they're being sort of institutionalized in these places.
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:46.320
So yeah, I think I thank you for sort of sharing more on that.
00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:48.159
And I think there's so much to display.
00:45:48.480 --> 00:46:04.400
So much because and and yes, there's a lot of people who are paying off their mortgages and who are feeding their families uh by upholding these systems by you know, and and the prisons are the apex of it.
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:10.000
You know, I I I refuse to subscribe to out-of-home care as a framing.
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:18.400
Um, I don't think that you can, you know, kids kids belong to their kin, to their community, to their country.
00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:24.559
They are not a product that you can pick up and move around from shelf to shelf or family to family.
00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:32.159
And yeah, just I refuse to rationalise or palette the absurdity and the violence of it all.
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:35.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:46.480
In response to that, on a personal note, I want to just ask, you know, where where do you draw strength from in using your voice and using it well?
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:55.760
I think, yeah, not being one to shy away from the the difficult conversations is important, but how do you look after yourself during this process?
00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:56.320
What is it?
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:58.480
What does it practically look like, I guess?
00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:08.079
Yeah, well, I'd I would say as well that there's times where I feel really stimulated and almost obligated or to carry the voice.
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:23.199
And there's other times where I'm incredibly down and depleted, and I can look around and know that there's other people that are carrying the voice, you know, and carrying the the cries and the aspirations and the stories of our communities.
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:26.639
So I mean, where do I draw strength from?
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:36.719
I must say that the last couple of years I was in a very dark place, very tired, very burnt out, very jaded.
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:48.000
I still hold the same anger, but I was channeling and deposit, you know, depositing it in a way that was unhealthy and was further eating away at the core of who I am.
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:59.519
So I took a lot of time to I'd probably say it's the bravest thing that I've ever done, but you know, cultivate the time and space to really wander into the wilderness within.
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:07.039
And growing up in a you know, playing sport out of school, growing up in a pretty hyper masculine environment.
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:19.920
I never thought I'd be in a position where I want to talk about being delicate and soft and um, you know, about these human joys of love and care.
00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:44.719
And so, you know, the last couple of years I've I've taken a lot of time to be with myself to learn how to rest and to restore and to rejuvenate and how to measure my worth and productivity not on my output, but on how I'm feeling and how I'm the inner creativity that I'm manifesting and that I can feel.
00:48:44.880 --> 00:49:22.320
So that's kind of putting me in a place now where I I feel strong um mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, or stronger to be able to be active and to use different mediums and depositories to you know amplify our desires, our aspirations to make sense of the world and try and communicate it in a way that is healthy and hopefully transcending and not just contributing to the malay or the endless noise that that just that constricts us and keeps us distracted.
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:31.119
So I'm not sure if that answers the question, but that that that's what I'm feeling and thinking in this moment and over the course of the last couple of years.
00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:33.199
Yeah, thank you.
00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:49.199
I'm smiling from like ear to ear because I mean, this is one of the the many things I love about Blackfellows is that we can talk from these big constructs politically and then get into what makes us who we are.
00:49:49.440 --> 00:50:02.000
And we're not all staunch beings, we're soft, we're malleable, we're we're we're we're sensitive, we're trying to find our place in the world, and we're trying our best to look after ourselves in a world that doesn't love us back.
00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:10.960
And so I'm just smiling because I am heartened that we as black fellas have the maturity and are sharing these things at the moment.
00:50:11.119 --> 00:50:14.639
You see, I I I feel also Yeah, I feel a little fuzzy.
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:24.960
Yeah, I I I used to flinch at these conversations because it's a con, you know, I've been conditioned to be strong and to to just keep pushing forward.
00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:30.639
And you know, the other tension that I would say is that we statistically die a lot younger.
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:41.360
And there's a you know, we're up against it, and I've felt an urge over the years to sprint the marathon and do as much as we possibly can with the minutes that we've got.
00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:47.360
And I just you know, I I don't want to be in a place of guerrilla warfare all the time.
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:51.039
I want to be able to be focused and sharp.
00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:56.000
I want to and when I am focused and sharp, I can feel the minutes elasticizing.
00:50:56.079 --> 00:51:16.400
I can see myself being, you know, more concise throughout the days, my imagination is flourishing, my creative output is so much better than when I'm on the treadmill and running fast and you know, from the outside looking in, I never I don't want people to see me as busy.
00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:43.440
You know, I want to be intentional, I want to be present, I want to be focused, and um, I can only do that if I'm you know in a in a serious and evolving relationship with myself and you know, committed to understanding all of the soft spots that you spoke about to you know and be and learning about honesty, you know, and and my body and my mind and my spirituality and all of these different things.
00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:53.519
So yeah, I mean, gosh, I think oh, you know, I could talk about health care and collective care and looking after ourselves for so long.
00:51:53.679 --> 00:51:57.039
I mean, I gam and joke around, but it's true.
00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:05.280
I think when, you know, growing up for me, being one of six, my my matriarchic line, you know, mum was very strong woman, very strong.
00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:10.719
We learnt good values, but our our how to understand and regulate our emotions.
00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:15.440
I mean, we really only had to eat hang angry or sad or happy.
00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:17.760
There was no no in between.
00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:22.639
And I always say that I had to go to uni for five years to learn how to feel my feelings.
00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:25.440
And so we we as black fellas are learning that.
00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:42.079
I think like when we're conditioned to believe that we as our every architect fiber of our being should not be here, that it doesn't belong, that it's not valued, understood, that we are better off just discarded.
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:47.199
I mean, how do you then choose to just start loving yourself and picking yourself?
00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:54.480
And you know, so it is we are disrupting this conditioning that we have and finding ways to look after ourselves.
00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:55.679
It ain't easy.
00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:58.400
So I think it's important to have these yarns.
00:52:58.639 --> 00:52:58.880
Yeah.
00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:20.880
And also, but within that, uh you you know, to catch the beauty in and amongst the darkness of it all, to see the beauty in each other and our communities, to be able to celebrate and you know, really acknowledge and see acts of resistance, to see, you know, acts of care, to see, you know, people excelling.
00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:27.039
Like I find myself, you know, engaged and like enthralled by all of that.
00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:27.760
Totally.
00:53:27.920 --> 00:54:10.159
And I think, you know, the flip side to to you know, that little anecdote about mum, bless her, is that while she had those inherent characteristics, at the core of who she was and what we have learnt, even though it was probably implicit, is this this intergenerational love, this intergenerational generosity um that when we when we look at the the counter, which is just the trauma, I think we do lose that that that that love and generosity, that way that we just care for kin um and we care for our community, and we're a part of this collective, and our responsibility in the collective is important to us.
00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:15.760
It means that how I act today has ramifications for people outside of me.
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:19.920
And so there's such there is such beauty and there is a lot to celebrate.
00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:24.400
And listening, listening to you speak though, it's like that's in the being, right?
00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:37.360
We focus so much on the doing, but you know, listening to you reflect on your mum and a lot of the matriarchs and you know those matriarchal figures within our communities and within society.
00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:47.119
Yeah, that that generosity and that care and that love and that pausity and presence comes from the being.
00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:50.960
It's not always found in the doing.
00:54:51.039 --> 00:55:05.199
And we are constantly in this, you know, there's this tension or this struggle between needing to do because of the circumstances that we're in, but knowing that so much of the beauty is in the being, right?
00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:05.519
Yeah.
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:07.039
I should pause.
00:55:07.360 --> 00:55:09.599
Yeah, oh gosh, a hundred percent.
00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:32.559
Once you have this aha moment that it's not so much as the things that you tick off or the outcomes or the accolades, it's in how you can learn to like yourself along the way and be with it all, like the duality of the that that that is the secret, I feel, you know.
00:55:34.159 --> 00:55:35.840
Totally, and it's not always a duality.
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:50.480
Sometimes I don't even want the language is, but I feel like there's a you know, a thousand different things then find this happy equilibrium that balances and takes into account all of these moving parts, if you know what I mean.
00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:52.639
Totally, yeah.
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:55.519
Gosh, you could we could we could really delve deep into that.
00:55:55.599 --> 00:55:58.239
But I knew this would open up a candy woman screen.
00:55:58.559 --> 00:55:59.840
I know, I know.
00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:03.519
Well, there could be another opportunity to continue because it's really important.
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:16.559
I guess when you mentioned before about the wilderness within and finding yourself in this place, it can be really scary when we become disconnected from ourselves.
00:56:16.719 --> 00:56:24.000
It can be a really scary, isolating place to not feel like you're at home within your own skin.
00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:27.599
And so I want to just unpack that a little bit further.
00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:38.880
And I want to ask a question about, you know, what do you do after having that experience now when you notice you're sort of like teetering on the edge of feeling disconnected?
00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:42.639
Like, what actually what's your thought process and what do you do?
00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:46.960
And I wonder if there's any practical ways that you could provide some advice.
00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:55.199
Because I think this is one thing I feel that a lot of our listeners are really interested to know is like how do we look after ourselves in this place?
00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:56.719
And what does it actually look like?
00:56:56.880 --> 00:56:58.880
Because it looks so different for everyone.
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:10.960
I mean, I'll touch on a few things that you said, and we'll also acknowledge that this is an evolving thing, and I'm not sure if I I'll try and find the right language for it.
00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:18.559
Wandering into the wilderness within was exactly what it felt like over the last couple of years, and it is by far the bravest thing I've ever done.
00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:50.320
Um I I feel you know there's there's so much friction and tension and at times pain, at times colour, you know, being able to have prolonged periods of reflection and rest and to become in touch and and further understanding of our bodies and our minds is a really difficult thing, particularly when we've grown up in an environment which is what you said, Caroline, is that is designed to disconnect.
00:57:51.360 --> 00:57:56.239
So I'll say that it's the bravest thing that I I honestly think that I've ever done.
00:57:56.480 --> 00:58:11.119
I would say that on the other side of this prolonged period of time of taking care of myself, that I'm now trying to figure out how I can balance a really healthy output with a really healthy input.
00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:31.440
And I'm not sure if I've if I've mastered that yet, but I'm really clear on that I'm my being and doing, my output and my input are constantly in relationship with one another, and I'm not just entirely focusing on either or that they must be um, that they must be in relationship.
00:58:31.599 --> 00:58:49.199
And I can, you know, really beautifully now, I can catch myself in the moments where I'm defaulting back to the time or to what I've felt most comfortable doing or thought felt most comfortable doing is moving quickly, you know, and and being anxious without knowing it.
00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:53.199
Like I can now capture those moments before it happens.
00:58:53.360 --> 00:58:57.280
You know, I can see myself getting back into an unhealthy rhythm.
00:58:57.599 --> 00:59:08.960
And you know, I've I've learned how to acknowledge that first and foremost, and then secondarily take stock, pause, and reorientate, reorganize, you know, my life.
00:59:09.280 --> 00:59:11.440
You know, recreating deadlines.
00:59:11.519 --> 00:59:13.519
We literally create our own deadlines.
00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:14.239
Yeah.
00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:18.480
Like actually, that can wait for a month.
00:59:18.639 --> 00:59:18.960
Yeah.
00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:21.039
Or actually, that's not even important.
00:59:21.280 --> 00:59:24.880
Why am I that's no, we don't need to do that.
00:59:25.039 --> 00:59:25.199
Yeah.
00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:26.559
Uh we're just gonna cull that.
00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:33.840
We're gonna cut that, we're gonna say thank you, but you're gonna go on the scrap heap with the rest of the metals and the copper and you're redundant.
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:41.599
Um so yeah, it it's uh that that's how I feel about it now.
00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:47.519
I think you know, placing an emphasis on sleep and learning how to sleep is hard.
00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:50.559
Um, but I've I've learned how to do that, isn't that crazy?
00:59:50.800 --> 01:00:06.079
Yeah, um, and to also rest, you know, in moments where this kind of capitalistic society demands that we be doing, you know, I'm okay with like I'm tired, I'm gonna sleep at midday, and I'm gonna have an hour nap.
01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:09.280
And like I'm not gonna feel guilty about it.
01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:09.519
Yeah.
01:00:09.679 --> 01:00:12.239
I'm gonna feel glorious about it, actually.
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:12.719
Yeah.
01:00:12.960 --> 01:00:23.599
So trying to, I don't know, maybe to to to come back, it's to make sure that my input and my output, my being and my doing are constantly in relationship with one another.
01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:45.280
Um and just trying to be very cognizant of that when I'm structuring out my days, my weeks, my months, and you know, when I'm zooming out and looking at, you know, your vision boards, Caroline, and and and imagining, you know, what the future holds and how importantly that's rooted to the many things of our ancient past.
01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:46.320
Yeah.
01:00:46.639 --> 01:00:47.199
Yes.
01:00:47.440 --> 01:01:07.599
Oh, I mean, this you're speaking my language about this notion of knowing and and being, but I guess to put it in a way to the listeners, or maybe just invite the listeners to think about, is and I do this work with my clients all the time because I I do a lot of work around burnout, and it's not an individual burden.
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:25.280
It's the way that modern societies view work and care responsibilities and how we um are all a part of this European capitalist regime, which where we become divorced of ourselves for some corporate value structure that we have had no part of.
01:01:25.519 --> 01:01:44.800
One thing I'll put out to the listeners practically in this is if when you are thinking about, you know, what's important to you in your next life, in this life and what steps you want to take, yeah, it's it's less about thinking about what you want to do, but more about what person do you want to become and who do you want to become.
01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:51.039
Am I a person that allows whatever whatever's going on out there to affect my emotional state?
01:01:51.199 --> 01:01:54.079
Am I a person that doesn't feel okay saying no?
01:01:54.320 --> 01:02:01.679
I think that's kind of scratching the surface deeper into less about what we do, but who we are and what we want to become.
01:02:01.760 --> 01:02:05.119
And and then you get to you get to choose those parameters.
01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:06.559
That's the the beautiful thing.
01:02:06.639 --> 01:02:11.039
Like you get to choose what choices you're gonna make to become that person.
01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:23.119
And I think when we when we zoom out on it on that level, you realize that it's not over like a 12-month goal setting, it's really over five, 10 years, your whole life, you know, this constant evolution.
01:02:23.280 --> 01:02:33.599
So I love all of that because it does take time, it it takes time and it takes tension and a need for us to lean into those tensions.
01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:57.440
And then more importantly, like I want us to be able to re-normalize these conversations because for me to like I've been leaning on so many trusted points of counsel around me, you know, family members, different mentors, different guides, different people from within the community, you know, to discuss these things, to problem solve together, to make sense of, you know, the nonsensical.
01:02:57.840 --> 01:03:01.599
It requires us to mobilize the collective wisdom around us.
01:03:01.760 --> 01:03:10.000
Um it's having these conversations and listening in on these conversations that I think can be, you know, very helpful.
01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:13.199
And and that's I'm speaking from a place of experience with that.
01:03:13.280 --> 01:03:17.679
I've found you know, yeah, these types of um this type of discourse really helpful.
01:03:17.920 --> 01:03:19.039
Yeah, totally.
01:03:19.280 --> 01:03:24.000
Yeah, 2023, we are not burning like our candles at at both ends anymore.
01:03:24.159 --> 01:03:43.039
I think I always say to myself, maybe our ancestors just want us to sleep and relax, like hang up on that couch, you know, maybe they'll be like rooting for you anyway, because yeah, this notion I talk about it in our Ted in my TED talk about, you know, for us, um, you know, community isn't just a noun, it's a verb, it's a doing word.
01:03:43.119 --> 01:03:46.159
And so there's always going to be things to do.
01:03:46.400 --> 01:03:49.760
How can you find yourself?
01:03:50.000 --> 01:04:00.480
And it's not to detach entirely, you still have uh an act of service, of course, but it's just to uh look after yourself so that you can step back in the arena well.
01:04:00.800 --> 01:04:03.199
Um, they're not mutually exclusive.
01:04:03.760 --> 01:04:05.920
So thank you for sharing that.
01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:10.079
I guess in closing, I've loved this conversation with you today, Benny.
01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:18.159
And I've just loved watching you soar to great heights, but most importantly, staying true to yourself and your values along the way.
01:04:18.400 --> 01:04:20.159
I really admire that about you.
01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:22.800
What can we expect from you this year?
01:04:23.039 --> 01:04:24.880
Is it what's on the horizon?
01:04:25.039 --> 01:04:26.480
Where can you see you?
01:04:26.719 --> 01:04:28.000
What do you've got planned?
01:04:28.320 --> 01:04:39.199
Yeah, I I mean, first and foremost, trying to continue to build upon the things that I've learnt about myself over the last few years and continue to find mediums and ways to contribute, right?
01:04:39.280 --> 01:04:45.440
And to be proactive and responsive to our evolving needs and desires.
01:04:45.679 --> 01:05:00.159
But I do think that, yeah, I'm starting to conceptualize from a professional standpoint, or coming to the reckoning that, you know, we are the founders of the forever economies and its number one shareholders.
01:05:00.320 --> 01:05:16.639
We are the first and final frontier of you know, a habitable planet ridded of climate change and inequality and all of these other ills, and that if balance is to be restored, that Indigenous peoples here at home and around the world just have an outsized role to play.
01:05:16.800 --> 01:05:38.000
Um so my my my thinking is pivoting towards, you know, in as we have a multitude of crises continue to compound on each other and be um in relationship with one another, how we can, you know, mobilize indigenous knowledge systems and ways of being to, you know, restore balance.
01:05:38.239 --> 01:05:54.960
And you know, when we think of health care, mental health, and dental as being stripped from the equation, which doesn't make sense, but also in this climate discourse, you know, indigenous rights and justice and well being and prosperity has also been stripped from the discourse.
01:05:55.039 --> 01:05:59.760
So I'm starting to lean into there and yeah, like I said, no.
01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:07.039
That First Nations people here at home and abroad just have an outsize role to play if some sort of balance is to be restored.
01:06:07.119 --> 01:06:10.159
And, you know, we we have an archive of knowledge.
01:06:10.239 --> 01:06:13.119
We know these living lands and waters like no one else.
01:06:13.280 --> 01:06:14.400
We belong to them.
01:06:14.639 --> 01:06:23.760
And, you know, the distress that this continent is seeing and feeling and showing is very much mirrored with the same distress that we are seeing and feeling in our communities.
01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:27.760
So that's where I'm starting to shift my attention to.
01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:29.920
And yeah, I'm not sure what it'll look like.
01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:33.840
And um, but that's the that's the starting point.
01:06:33.920 --> 01:06:55.280
And you know, hopefully over the next 12, 18, 24 months, they'll yeah, keep leaning into that, keep mobilizing our old people, um, you know, also this really eclectic group of black fellows that are grounded in their communities and uphold those um, you know, principles of cultural integrity, but are also really skilled and you know, educated within a broader system.
01:06:55.360 --> 01:07:03.360
Um, because if we can come together and you know mobilize that collective wisdom, then um yeah, who knows what we might be able to create.
01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:06.239
Oh, thank you.
01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:21.440
Well, I can't wait to continue to watch what you've got in store and as you yeah, are moving through this world feeling and thinking and showing up for your your community and um working with our mob.
01:07:21.599 --> 01:07:30.639
Yeah, I just I just want to say, yeah, that we we are all with you in this process and we're really excited to see what, yeah, what what comes your way.
01:07:30.960 --> 01:07:31.519
You're the best.
01:07:31.599 --> 01:07:31.920
Thank you.
01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:36.159
I've loved being here, and it's um, yeah, we are all interconnected.
01:07:36.320 --> 01:07:46.719
And I know that you just spoke about celebrating me, but I I never feel and I'm sure you're the same, that we we're not doing this alone.
01:07:46.880 --> 01:07:55.280
Um we are doing it as part of a consortium and collection of people, and that's who I find myself moaning most accountable to.
01:07:55.440 --> 01:07:57.840
So that's what we'll um we'll continue to try and do.
01:07:57.920 --> 01:07:58.880
But thanks for having me on.
01:07:58.960 --> 01:08:01.199
I bloody love you, I nearly swore.
01:08:01.519 --> 01:08:02.719
That's okay, you can swing.
01:08:03.440 --> 01:08:04.719
It's been a dream, thank you.
01:08:04.960 --> 01:08:06.000
Thank you, bro.
01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:09.280
Thank you so much for listening, you mob.
01:08:09.440 --> 01:08:21.119
If you are vibing this season of Yarning Up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts from to show us some love, rate, and review.
01:08:21.439 --> 01:08:31.279
Alternatively, you can get in contact and give us some feedback by visiting www.carolinecow.com.au