00:00:08
Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mea podcast. Why Hello there, it's Claire here. I hope you're well today, pun intended. We've been chatting a bit about some hormone related things recently, and honestly, there's barely a condition that we haven't been able to find some kind of hormone connection too. But today we've got a special one for you. One of the shows in the Muma Mia staple is called Mid, and it speaks to women of a certain age about a lot of things that could be happening in their lives around midlife. Holly Wayne Wright, who you might know from our other podcast, Mum and Me Are Out Loud, is the host of Mid. She's truly such a wonderful, warm and kind human and that really comes through in the conversation she's had on the show over the years. In this episode of Mid, she speaks to Grace Lamb, who's also joined the Mum and MEA team just quietly as co host of the very funny Unleashed podcast, which you should definitely check out if you want to have a really good laugh today. But in this episode, Grace, a former high fashion editor for Vogue, talks about how her hormones really turned her life completely upside down, and that experience took her all the way to the WA Senate to discuss the changes this country needs to make to better support women going through this transition. Check it out.
00:01:28
Speaker 2: For me.
00:01:29
Speaker 3: Sobbing in a tent was the first sign not unreasonable. Of course, camping is bullshit. But the day I found myself crying, flinging things around a polyester palace so sleep deprived I could barely stand, I began to wonder if maybe this wasn't me me it was me on Perry? Was that why I was suddenly so anxious, so short of breath and spinny of brain? Were hormones to blame for those sparkly auras and ask kicking headaches? Why couldn't I remember the word for for my grain anymore? I think you know the answer. In fact, I know you do, because when I asked you, my mid friends, what your hormonal tell was the most surprising and weird thing that began to happen to you when you landed here in the decade of menopausal change. You told me. Oh, you told me. You told me so much and so well that I've written you a poem a sonnet, maybe a song, perhaps a love note at the very least to all my mid sisters. I see you, you see each other. Maybe we should call it the Ballad of Perry and Mennow, the least amusing characters in the Ladies Pixar cartoon about a woman's hormonal life. Let's start with hair loss, a banging heart and throwing it back to acne, vertigo, itchy ears and saw hips, welcoming in a flare of ibs, and a couple of panic attacks, crawling skin, tasting metal and frozen shoulder. And did we mention the never ever sleeping, A sudden onset idiot allergy, sore feet and no libido, fury, roseatia and self loathing, forgetfulness, oceans of tears and leaky wee dry eyes, a scratchy head, and an absence of shits to give. And then there are the clots and the flooding and angry vagina rage, a missing waste and waking in a puddle, crumbly teeth and self doubt and a permanent hangover, restless legs, a shrivellly vadge and ginger vitis tinatus and a beard. Oh sorry, we forgot again to mention the anxiety, the sudden pounding, life halting panic. Oh we did. That must be the brain fog. Welcome mids to my tent and yours. We're all in this together, just not at the same time. That would be a sight to see.
00:04:00
Speaker 1: Hello.
00:04:01
Speaker 3: I am Holly Wainwright and I am mid, mid life, mid family, mid search for my hormone patches. When we invented mid, some people form a guest Kyli Gillies amongst them, perhaps said to me, it's not just going to be a show about hot flushes, is it. Well, no, it's not. Well, it wasn't until that intro that I just wrote for you. Maybe it was a little much, but you're a hard bunch to shock. Thank you to all the mids who sent me their most surprising hormonal symptoms that we turned into that intro. We made it as far as episode eighteen to the show for gen X women who are anything but and we haven't even tackled the big m yet or you know, the big pe menopause, Perry menopause, the change, you know, all that stuff that we're not meant to talk about, all that stuff that's a bit you know, embarrassing, awkward, old, and yet suddenly women are talking about it. It's as if when the rebellious women of Gen X lost our estrogen, we found our voices looking around and going, hold up, We're just supposed to put up with all this. If it's true that the generation above are rolling their eyes about us because they rode the hormone roller coaster with rolled up sleeves and gritted teeth, you know, we're sorry, not sorry about that. This is a show about grown up women, and we could do many, many episodes about hormones and perry and menopause, and you know what, we probably will. But here is our first And if you haven't met Grace Lamb yet, you're going to be very glad you did. Grace once gave Kate Moss a pair of her own knickers to wear on a fashion shoot. Yes you heard that right. For more than twenty five years, Grace lived and breathed the rarefied air of high fashion, working for and with everyone from yes, Kate Moss and all of the supermodels to Edward Ennenfall, who's an OBE. She's worked all over the world and was part of the launch team of Vague China staying in Asia then for twelve years before coming to settle in Perth with her husband and her son and to build a new business, which is a bespoke styling and shopping service with an emphasis on mid women. Everything was going according to plan for the talented, organized, focused Grace until hormones entirely upended her tidy world. She's going to tell you about exactly what that felt like. Fast forward a few years and Grace has become a loud and important voice for women being messed with by their hormones. She's bought her voice all the way to the halls of government. She's recently just appeared, for example, before the Western Australian Senate public hearing on issues about perry and menopause, telling government what we actually need to change systemically in our medical institutions to catch up with what we all need. Grace is sharp and funny and honest and nobleshit like you. I think you're going to like her. Oh and she's sweary, so yes, you're definitely going to like her. I want to start with how you saw yourself and your life before perry menopause. So I want you to paint me a picture of grace pre aged forty eight.
00:07:10
Speaker 2: I wasn't even thinking about perimenopause and menipause. First of all, I didn't know the word perimenopause existed. I've always heard only menopause. My life was as normal as you can imagine. When I was living in Hong Kong. So I'm from Hong Kong originally, but i lived most of my life in London, so I'm a true Londoner Hong Kong and life was great. You know. I've got one clube Perth just before COVID, and everything was fine, you know, And then suddenly one night it hit me like a brick and everything changed that night.
00:07:43
Speaker 3: You moved to Perth with your family, and you are going about your busy, hyper organized life, and then what happens when perimenopause hits you like a train It.
00:07:53
Speaker 2: Really hit me like a train wreck. One night I was like sleeping, and then suddenly I could not see for the next four or five weeks, just out of the blue.
00:08:01
Speaker 3: When you say that, do you mean literally you couldn't sleep for four weeks? Because I've heard you say this like insomnia for that long.
00:08:07
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah. When I first came to PERF. I was so burned up just from having like this fashion life in Hong Kong and London whatever and stuff. Right, I hadn't stopped, like I don't know how many years, like twenty years. So when I came to Perf, because Perf is so chill, I was like, Okay, I'm just going to take some time off work. I'm not going to do anything. And then COVID hit was just like kind of a good timing in a way, so I wasn't stressed, and I was like, am I stressed? I'm not stressed, not working, you know, I'm just taking some time off, so I'm not stressed, So why am I not sleeping? So the first few days I thought, oh, maybe it's just something happened, like maybe I'm kind of like, you know, unconscious stress. And then when it started hitting like the second week, the third, I was like this, this is weird. Something's not right. And I couldn't even comprehend what was happening because I hadn't researched anything. I didn't know anything. I kind of start feeling like my brain was out of my head for most days, just couldn't put sentence together. And it's not because I've got bad English. It just felt so surreal. I felt like I was having like an out of body experience every day for the next at least four to five weeks. And because I followed Diavina McCall from UK, a very famous TV presenter and she's a huge menopause advocate, I started tapping through the whole menopause world. And then, of course, you know, she team up with Dr Nami Porter, who wrote a brilliant book Menopausing, and then I discovered doctor Louis Nusan. You know, all these amazing women that helped me through the time when I felt so lost in my life, like she still know what was happening. And my mood swing was like up and down like you a roller coaster. I mean, I'm a moody bitch anyway, and I can go from zero to a thousand within a second. But I've calmed down so much more for the past five years. And I felt like something wasn't right, and I knew, you know, the kind of menopause rage is so different from your normal rage. You feel it in your bones that it's kind of like a different part of your brain that's happening and I think the day when my husband said to me, he probably said something like, what's you want for dinner? And I just blew up and I had a kid bin and I dented it and I was like, whoa. I mean, my comfortable skills is great, but not this great. You know, I just knew something was happening.
00:10:20
Speaker 3: It's so interesting. So it started with insomnia. Now I'm going to ask you to list some of your symptoms in a minute, because I have listened to the remarks that you gave to the Perth Senate on their menopause inquiry, and the list is long. But for the women listening, it's interesting because when these things first start happening to you, you don't know that's what it is. And then as you say that, your pennies began to drop and you began to see this information around from Divine and McCall and others. It can be hard to see the wood for the trees, right like you're kind of like, oh, I'm moody, Oh I'm sleepless, Oh I'm this, and that you started to keep a diary, didn't you of your symptoms? And can you tell me some of the other things apart from the sleeplessness and rage that were happening to you in this period.
00:11:03
Speaker 2: I had like breast tenderness, which was weird, you know, and then palpitation. It wasn't severe, but I felt like sometimes my heart will miss a beat, and I was like, this is kind of weird. Tinatus. I couldn't hear At one point, at the beginning stage, I was so sensitive too noise, to a point that wh you know, if my husband bashed pots and pans, I'd be like out, you know. And then joint pain. You know, my fingers start getting really like painful. And then I gain a lot of like belly fat and kind of crawley skin a little bit. I just felt tired. And then oh, the weirdest thing was I started feeling driving anxiety, which I know is a symptom, but I didn't know it was a symptom then. And I started being very nervous about driving. Forgot say, I'm an F one Formula one fan. Even though I drive very safely, I'm all about, you know, like watching F one. I'm like, why am I scared of driving? I thought, oh, maybe because I'm kind of newish to PERF I'm like, no, you know this. It was so weird. It was very strange. I would get into the curt and I'd feel nervous not to mention that people in PERF drive like crazy, which is kind of really weird. You know, it's such a chill place where people drive like lunatics here.
00:12:13
Speaker 3: Because this was a period of change for you anyway, right with the career change in moving to a new country. You obviously are a very high achieving woman. You're juggling being a mom, you're juggling being a wife. Were you hard on yourself at that time before you began to get the.
00:12:26
Speaker 2: Help you needed?
00:12:27
Speaker 3: Was it also like a bash to your self esteem to think, why am I suddenly this messy, angry, anxious lady.
00:12:35
Speaker 2: No. I mean I've always been quite a confident person. I wasn't hard on myself in that sense, but I was hard on myself on my to do list every day, you know, even though I wasn't working full time, I had a lot of to do lists. You know, clean this, do that, you know, no, no, no, you know, make home, make cookies or whatever and stuff. And when I wasn't doing that, I was so pissed off at myself. I'm not good mother. I'm not this, I'm not you know. I would to do this, do all everything right. It's not up until maybe last year I started telling myself small wins are the real wins, rather than like all these like massive fucking to do lists. I mean, who's got the time, you know, when you're like a full time mom and you've got things you get shited done. I mean, to do list every day just too massive. And I started saying to myself, Okay, out of the ten things, if you do three things, you're winning. So as soon as I took that kind of mindset, it really helped me to like take it easier on myself a bit more. I'm always been quite confident women, but I think sometimes I would have self doubt to a point that I was like, that's so weird because I'm so confident. Why am I having all these feelings? And once I acknowledge it, I'm like, you know, step myself out of it. I'm like, you know what, You're not that kind of woman, you know, just step up.
00:13:48
Speaker 3: You feel like you're turning into someone else, don't you. It's really strange. So then once you've realized this, and as you say you're following some amazing advocates online. You needed to get yourself some practical help, so you were very deliberate about who you wanted to seek out to help.
00:14:03
Speaker 2: You.
00:14:03
Speaker 3: Tell me about how you first approached getting medical help.
00:14:06
Speaker 2: At this point, I started a menopause group chat with two moms at my son's schools because they are going through paring menopause. The first thing I told them is to start a diary, which helps so much as I write every single details down, whether you have a twitch in your eye or whatever and stuff. I said, all these symptoms that you don't think is important, they make all the puzzles together when you go and see a GP or your specialists. I have a great clinic near where I live, so I normally go there for anything, right, so I deliberately chosen an Asian GP. She's a bit older than me and she's a super nice lady. I deliberately chose her because she's Asian and I know that she's going through menopause, so I thought, oh, she can relate to me. But she didn't know much. I have to tell her quite a lot because before I went I did shitloads of homework and doctor Narmie Porter has gave advice about what you need to say when you're going to your first appointment. I didn't know that I could ask for an extension appointment, so my oppointment was like maybe maximum eight minutes. It's really short. You know. My list of questions was just far too long. I mean, I probably need an hour. She gave me eight minutes maximum, and then you know, gave me some sleeping pills and that was it. And I was like, I don't worry. I don't actually use the sleeping pills because I don't want to be addicted to it, even though I wasn't sleeping for like four or five weeks. But it just goes to show how little GP knows about menopause. It baffles me because you know, half the population is a woman exactly.
00:15:29
Speaker 3: And also, as you said, you were very deliberate in seeking out a GP who you thought would know what you were talking about. But women like you who are arming yourself with the information, we're finding ourselves sometimes going into the doctor's sidery and having to be well, I like doing like we're the ones giving the information. It's crazy before we move on. Didn't you say in your Senate presentation notes that she told you sleeping pills and don't take HRT because it gives you cancer. Did she say that?
00:15:55
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah she did. And then first of all, I asked hers, so do I need a charity? She go, oh, no, no, because you don't have hot flashes. So to her, if you don't have hot flashes, you don't need charity, which is stupid as a stupid meant to make because obviously from that moment I knew she knew nothing, So I was like, what the hell you know? I wasn't mean to her because she's you know, it's not her fault, but I was like, you actually don't know a lot, and it's kind of quite disheartening for me to come to you and you don't know much and you just gave me sleeping because this is not the way forward. How are we going to deal with this? And she said, just come back in two weeks after you've taken the sleeping pills. I was like, oh, you know, for fuck's sake, you know. And that's when I knew that if you find a GP that knows her shit or his shit about menopause, it's kind of like you wonder lottery. But then different friends told me about menopause specialists. So I actually went to see, you know, my first doctor, and I've got two doctors. Now I've changed I'm entering my second next face of my perimenopause journey, so I've changed doctor. So going to a specialist changed my life. But it costs so much money.
00:16:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, So you walk out of your GP. And this is a lot of the women listening will have had experiences like this, Like when I talk to women who were not maybe as plugged into all this menopause information as you became, and I am, obviously through my work and things, they'll say, oh, well, I'm not a candidate for HRT because XYZ or they do still have that lingering cancer myth bubbling around in their head. So they'll walk out of the GP just feeling disheartened and lost at that point and probably just be suffering through what comes next. Your advice to those women would be to find menopause specialists in their area and then what happens.
00:17:35
Speaker 2: I think for those who can't take HRT, there are so many ways you can help yourself. Change of diet, your lifestyle is number one. I mean, through this whole journey. I've learned so much about nutrition, food, diet, exercise, which I was never about before. You know, I think when I had my son eleven years ago, I became more health conscious, but not to this level. So the past two years, I've actually learned so much from all these people. I mean, if anyone needs help, just DM me on my Instagram and I will help you. It just got to your point that so many women have messaged me and said, oh, I can't find a GP to it. I've helped people up in Melbourne or Sydney with GPS that I know. It's kind of crazy. It's almost like if you don't know where to start, you're so lost and you're going through all these symptoms, then your mom or your grandmother was like, oh, don't worry, it's such soldier on like I did, and like I do, not encourage soldiering on. And I almost wish that women would just help themselves by giving yourself more options. You know, there's so much misinformation out there. You also have to be very careful what to read and who to follow to get legit, you know, data, And I wish people could stop reading that stupid fucking report from two thousand and two Women's Health Initiatives. Stop reading that fucking report is so old. And they were testing women over sixties anyway who are too late in a way for HRT and it was all oral XRT. So can we just stop using that your standard of judging HRT. You know, we've got such modern medication now it's completely different.
00:19:07
Speaker 3: It's been so discredited. So when you did find your menopause specialist, what's different about that appointment? Like when you go in there, what were you beginning to hear there that actually started to help you.
00:19:18
Speaker 2: That she didn't deny it was perimenopause. My first GP who didn't know anything. She didn't deny it, but she couldn't give more information. Whereas my menopause specialists, the first doctor, doctor Lucy Kart, she didn't deny it. We discussed, We had a one hour consultation, you know, it was great, and then all my questions were answered, and then together we planned the whole you know, hrit road, where we're going to start, what we're going to do, how we're going to change it in it, all of that and then now with you know, my new doctor, doctor Sunita from here a clinic, same thing. You know, they are just a lot more thoughtful and they know their shit. They know you know everything that will help you. You know. They all have different ways. You know, Doctor Sonita now is very She's super practical, which I love. And also through this journey, I I realized that there's so many companies out there just using a menopause topic to capitalize on menopause a woman because they just feel like, you know what, I can sell shit to these women and they would buy anything. And I just want to say that I don't really believe in supplements unless through your blood test you shown deficiency, you know, in a certain element, like for example, I am deficient of vitamin D at a moment, so I am taking supplements. But in general I wouldn't advise anyone just to go and buy all these side you know, just don't waste your money.
00:20:41
Speaker 3: That is music to my ears, grace, because I did that over the last two years. I've had my own journey with perimenopause and menopause, and I was the person who was just desperately reaching for I must have ordered every supplement on I herb in the world, and they we're getting delivered to me, and then I took so many of all the wrong things. I ended up getting really sick. And my doctor, who is actually a very good female, gp on this is but she says exactly what you say. She says, if your diet is good, do not take all the snake oil supplements that everybody's selling. You find out what you actually need. Because we're all flapping around so desperately trying to find answers to why we suddenly feel like completely different people. We're very vulnerable to being sold a whole lot of stuff we don't need, right.
00:21:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Now I've learned that I will not go to a clinic that self supplements anymore. It's a different priority for them. I don't know. I just don't like people capitalizing on us when we're very vulnerable. It's just not right. And if you have a really good healthy diet, you know, protein, you know, eat in a fiber, eat your fermental food, exercise, all these are so much more important. And popping I think the problem with people, not just menopause a woman, we want a quick fix, whether it's a sempic or diet. You know, we just want to pop the pill and don't have to do any work, but unfortunately you do have to do a lot of work when you're going through a perimenopause.
00:22:10
Speaker 3: I'll be back with more of my conversation with Grace Slam in a moment, but first here's a message from the presenting partners of ASHA. We are generally often at a very busy phase in our lives as well. You know, we're often parenting, we might be dealing with aging parents who are often working like it feels like another job sometimes, which is why it's so important to understand who to trust. In your presentation too, well, you have to tell me how the whole your involvement in the Perth Senate inquiry came about. But in that you talk about the cost and you actually list out what you have and do end up spending on this, and you're advocating obviously for more support on this front. What kind of support do we need? And do you know if there are places in the world that are doing this a lot better than Australia.
00:22:55
Speaker 2: I think the UK is definitely leading the way because they've just got so many amazing great menopause advocates over there. I mean, their charity costs twenty pounds per year with all hormones. It's just it blows my mind, you know, Like, so I'm taking estrogen and progesterone, and the progesterone is permetrium that costs like is it seventy five or something like that. So basically each month I will have to spend at least two hundred dollars, right, but not including the supplements I used to take. So each month I will have to probably like span four five hundred dollars, but not to mention all the scans that I have to do, breast scans, perfect scans, this and that, and then go and see like you know, like a breast cancer specialist. I mean, of course you go public, but the queue is so long that you won't preceed until got knows when. Right, I didn't encounter these kinds of extra costs when I started this journey. And then you realize that the pharmaceutical benefit scheme they don't cover all hormones, but with men they do. You know, men can get like testosterone for like you know, a subsidy, of course, so why can't we get all these three homones that are so important to us? You know, testosterone is not only for men. It's for women as well. You know. Well, so basically what happened was when I started this whole journey. And you can see I'm not a shy woman. I've always been like, if I don't like someone, I fucking tell them. Man. You know, I don't go, oh my god, I'm just not that kind of person.
00:24:19
Speaker 3: You're good at what we call advocating for yourself.
00:24:21
Speaker 2: Yes, and ever since I was very young, I actually believe that I'm like the recarnation of Bruce Lei.
00:24:27
Speaker 3: Anyway, I was going to ask you where you reckon that confidence comes from?
00:24:31
Speaker 1: Now I know?
00:24:32
Speaker 2: Well, also I think being a twin and the youngest girls are four to fight my battles with my sisters, and I don't know, I think I was just pawn kind of like feisty and just like don't fuck with me kind of attitude. Anyway, back to menopause. So I was going through this journey and I was like, it's so weird that people don't talk about it, right, I've never heard any of my cousins, my female cousins of like friends in Hong Kong, they never speak about this.
00:24:57
Speaker 3: Why do you think that is? What's your theory on why we haven't until this moment been comfortable speaking about it.
00:25:03
Speaker 2: Peop were just embarrassed because that means that we're old.
00:25:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, this age is right one hundred percent.
00:25:08
Speaker 2: And also, what I find weird is that when people meet me, first of all, they can't believe I speak really good English. They're always like, oh, your English is so good, and I was like, that's a fucked up thing to say. I started saying, you know, especially to white people, your English is also good, and they're like, oh, you know, I think when people meet me they can't believe first I'm like fifty one, and they're like, oh my god, you look so yeah. No, no, no, no, which is kind of like a compliment. But at the same time, I'm like, what do you think a fifty one woman should look like? An Asian woman look like like super young, or like why would you say that? Even it sounds like a compliment, is actually quite annoying for me because you kind of like typecasting, you know, Asian women, right. And also I just want to normalize the conversation right from the start. So when I meet men, especially, I always tell them if I have a brain fup moment, it's because of my perimenopause. They're like what. I'm like, yeah, it's my perimenopause brainfall. And if I do any probic speaking is the first thing I bring it up, because I want to normalize that conversation. You know what, People get used to it because every other woman is going to go through the same thing, and people sometimes don't know how to take it, and I'm like, you know what, fucking deal with it.
00:26:18
Speaker 3: I love this, right, Grace, because I'm a little bit the other way in that I can be very I don't want you to think that my hormones are impeding me being good at my job or able to do this or able to do that. So I often kind of minimize it. And I love that attitude of like, no, we need to normalize it, and then that way we unpick that stereotype. I also wanted to ask you, though, about the aging and people telling you look good for your age and all that nonsense. Living and working in the world that you had worked in all those years. Were you worried about aging? Like, were you worried about that from an external perspective?
00:26:56
Speaker 2: Now? I wasn't even thinking about it during my whole twenty seven years of working in fashion industry. I think when I was younger, in my twenties, I was more jaded than anything, because after I knew or how much these supermodels were earning, you know, by walking down the catwall, and I was there doing one of the toughest job as an assistant, last one to leave, first one to get there, just sorting up shit for people. You know. I'm like, I'm going to pay peanuts compared to these women who are just they're taller, they've got an amazing face, you know. Figure. I think I was more jaded than anything, but luckily my character doesn't let me go to that dark side. And I was like, well, different people, different purpose in life, right. I think when I started this whole perimenopaust journey, I just want to break the stigma of menopausa women. I want to show that we are also very fashionable. We are not all dowdy. I think it's the image that really annoys me about menopausa woman or women above a certain age, And what I find quite interesting with some younger women, I sometimes I always feel like they think they're like invincible and then they're never going to get old. I want to tell them that you will get to my stage at one point and then you realize that, you know what, this older woman, I shouldn't have made fun of them. I shouldn't have all that, not just younger girls that you know, men as well, Right, when men get older, they could always go for younger girls, you know, not old men. I'm not generalizing, but when we get old, or when we have great hair, we're like trying to hide out, trying to like, you know, die her doing all that, and it's like we've passed a prime. One of the recommendations from the Senate Inquiry hearing is to have a new campaign for menopause. Me and my friend Maria from Perry Pausa who lives in Melbourne. You know, she called me, She's like, hey, let's talk about this. You know, we'll do a new campaign. And when we were talking on the phone just two weeks ago, it's certainly dawned on me. I had a really great idea, and I want to change how we perceived in society. That can we stop just showing like really elderly women like laughing, you know, smiling, you know, I just want to make it really cool and relatable to younger women. And younger girls and boys and men to change the whole dynamic of how they see midlife women. It's very important, you know, especially that you can't use the old methods anymore, and this has to be a new way of seeing it. There has to be a new way.
00:29:19
Speaker 3: I'm going to ask you a little in a little bit about some of your advice about that for those of us who are feeling ourselves turning invisible. But to be back to this, you finally get the help you need. You've now been on HRT for a while. Where do you feel you're at now?
00:29:33
Speaker 2: Like?
00:29:33
Speaker 3: How do you feel in terms of giving women who are listening to this and struggling with it hope? Like do you feel amazing? Do you feel like your old self? Do you feel like an evolved version? Has the HRT fixed everything? Where are you now?
00:29:46
Speaker 2: Okay? So when I first started my HRIT, I was on a very low dose of estrogen, like twenty five strength mcg, which is the lowest dose because we need to test out how my body will react to it. That night, I slept like a baby. So I know I'm one of the rare women that work immediately. Some woman takes like a year, six months or three months for it to happen. I was very lucky to have that kind of magic touch, you know. I would say, if I wasn't on this hrty journey, I think I would have been such a bitch my son and my husband. I can't tell you how great this journey has been. I've learned so much, and charity has given me my life back. And I really wish that women would just give it a girl, if you can take it. Some of my friends who are prone to cancer, they are also on a charity because they weigh out the pros and cons I mean, talk to your doctor. You know, we're not medical doctors. We can't give medical advice, but I would definitely weigh out the pros and cons versus Soldiering on chrity has changed my life. I feel so normal now. I get eight hours sleep. I mean I still wake up now and then the brain fog still happens, but it's less severe. But I find that when I speak, I guess because English is my second language, sometimes I find it quite like the puzzle doesn't match as quickly as before, so sometimes I go blank. I was talking to someone about giving birth and I couldn't remember for the life of me. So I can't even remember now, you know, when I had a C section and then they gave me a pa dura. I couldn't remember a per durl for months. It was so weird. I'm I should know that word, come on, you know, stuff like that. So it really helped me to gain my life back and just to be like a nice person. I'm not a nice woman.
00:31:29
Speaker 3: I love this, I love you. You have let go of that people pleasing. I want people to like me. Stuff a lot of women struggle with and then when they hit midlife and suddenly go I hate everybody, it's a really big shock for them. You're going, look, I was kind of like that anyway.
00:31:43
Speaker 2: But I just yeah, I played menopause. It's been a whole eye opening journey and I wouldn't change a thing because through this whole journey, I met so many amazing women in Australia and worldwide, you know, in UK, I've made so many online friends and it's a great community. And also I want to, you know, tell the audience that just be very careful when you go on Facebook and join the menopause group. There's so much like misinformation out there, and I really advise you to seek professional help because some of those advice I'm just like so shocked on when people like suggest this and that, and yeah, it's just be very careful about where you get your information from.
00:32:21
Speaker 3: You gave evidence to the percent and inquiry, you gave a presentation. What's the outcome of that that you want, and what are the main things that you think that like a systemic changes that can make things better for us rather than things that we can do.
00:32:34
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, so many, so many, But there are twenty five recommendations. I haven't had time to read all in it because I think it's about one hundred and sixty something pages, this report, but I urge everyone to go on the government website or go on my Instagram grade and style. I put it on my biolink so you can read everything. First of all, education across the board, medical system or GPS, nurses, and I want I would love for everyone to work together. Psychiatrists, therapists, you know, physio nutritionist, dieticians, everyone can jump boughtant helps all related. You know, how you eat, what you do, what exercise you do. You know, I'm not my first doctor, said to be that I shouldn't do hit exercise because of you know, perimenopause. Then I realized that after do more research that actually you can do a certain amount, but you're not overdo it to stress your body. And then my other friend was like, you know, recommending trainer for me. But then I'm not I'm not going to go for a trainer who's like twenty years old, don't know what's going through.
00:33:33
Speaker 3: That's my whole thing is, I'm like, if I'm going to get a train that I'm scanning for the older face in the room.
00:33:38
Speaker 2: Exactly one hundred percent, you know. So I want GPS to have mandatory and your revision training because they need to be you know, updated with the new technology, new symptoms, and to have longer GP consultations for all women, a lot more subsidies on medication for all three hormones that we need testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone, and to give more funding to all the scanning and checks that we need need because at a moment, it's just all out of my pocket and it's just like I'm a freelancer, you know, I just can't keep like giving out five hundred dollars here and then for one skin, and also education in middle school and high school and universities so that boys and girls know what's coming for them, and especially men they need to know.
00:34:28
Speaker 3: I think that those are a great place to start because I think that when people are like, well, what can be done, it's like, those are very practical things that can be done, like better awareness and training across the board, you know, for the medical profession, more subsidies for what we need medically, Like that's it feels like that should be table.
00:34:44
Speaker 2: Stakes andause leave at workplace, and also educating employers employees at a workplace so there's snow stigma, you know, no buyers when they take time off or no judgment and women can feel like they can have a conversation with their boss or like their colleagues without being judged. You know, this is the thing about this whole menopause top because people don't want to be judged. Oh yet she oh she's past her prime. You know. I'm like, we're all going to get old. Men include it, so we need to stop that kind of like judgmental conversation. Yeah, and for the government to jomp on board, I mean, come on, you know, surely they'veore got wives, sisters, cousins and mothers, you know, and daughters, So don't they want to have a happy wife, happy life, happy taught to heavy life, you.
00:35:28
Speaker 3: Know, and tap into our wisdom and experience.
00:35:31
Speaker 2: Right.
00:35:31
Speaker 3: We're smart as That's the thing I tell people all the time. We're the people you want to hire and listen to because we've been around the block and we understand how the world works. I'll be back in a moment. I was really curious to know where all this grit and sort of bolshey determination came from in grace, and you're about to find out it isn't what I was expecting. You've said a lot about the stigma and stereotyping of experience as an Asian woman living in the UK and Australia. How do you think that those challenges is a bit intersected with the aging and menopause journey, particularly with the medical community.
00:36:12
Speaker 2: I mean, I think Asian women, I've always had a reputation of being very you not all because I know a lot of strong, like upspoken Asian women as well. Sometimes you know, when I don't have my resting bitch face on, people think I'm kind of because I'm Asian. They think first I don't speak too English, and then because I banter a lot with people, they don't expect it, and they think I'm like Dosa, really like demure, you know, really like quiet. So I think that's why I became who I am, because I want to break that kind of Asian woman stigma. Not so because I had a bad racist attack in the UK when I lived there. I was actually beaten up by this guy, this random guy at the bus stop in Brighton, and because I was so a Chinese girl, he basically kicked the shit out of me and told me to go back to where I came from.
00:37:01
Speaker 3: Shit, how old were you then, Grace?
00:37:03
Speaker 2: Oh my god. So I mean there's racist some everywhere, you know. I think just being Asian and being Chinese, people have this kind of image of us being really quiet and we don't speak out. I mean, I've had quite a lot of racism here in Australia, a lot more in the past few years compared to the twenty years I've lived in the.
00:37:20
Speaker 3: UK, like avert racism. I mean, I know, racism's racism, but.
00:37:24
Speaker 2: I mean during COVID, I was very aware of racism here because I saw on the Internet that people in the East Coast were attacking like Chinese people because they thought that, you know, Chinese people, you know, they broke COVID. And I was very aware and very careful when I went out in Perth, especially when I was with my son, and I almost felt like part of me was a bit lost, The fire was lost in me because I was so scared people was going to attack me, especially when I was with my son. So my husband will come with me everywhere because he's white, and he was being very protective. But I was on my birthday the day. I was, you know, just going for a walk on myself, and my husband was away down south of Perth. He's a photographer doing some documentary any for a job. So I was by myself, you know, with my son and he went to school. So I went for a walk. Is it my birthday? This middle aged white guy cycled past me and he was like, go back to you fucking came from your fucking Chinese and I was like, I was so shocked that that happened in Perth because I thought perf people are quite chill, and I think because of COVID everything just kind of like blew up. The old grace Lamb would have chased him down the streets, just going you fucking wanker.
00:38:37
Speaker 1: You know.
00:38:37
Speaker 2: I wanted to use the see word, but I don't think I should. I would have just gone off and just go, who the fuck do you think you were? I would just gone off. But because of my older age, I became very wise, and I thought, okay, I'm single parenting this week. I don't want to end up in police station on my birthday? And then what would my son think? And I did all of that, so I bit my tongue and just kept on walking. I was so furious that him and myself, And I think things like this make me think like do I keep on being myself and being very feisty outspoken in this kind of situation or do I go opposite right? And I think when I was attacked when I was eighteen, the next day I change everything, the way I look at things, the way I am with myself. I said to myself, no one is going to fuck with me anymore, and I'm going to stand up for my people. And that's why sometimes when people meet me, they don't understand why I am the way I am, and when I tell them that story, they kind of understand because I want to break the statement not only with menopausal women, but being an Asian woman, I want to break that kind of statement. We're all not quiet, We're all not docile, you know, we have a voice. So and also being a perimenopausal woman, I just want people to think of Asian women differently. Just because we don't get hot flashes as much as I you know, maybe a Western woman doesn't mean that we're not going through so much. You know, at the moment, we're not going through as many symptoms as they are.
00:40:01
Speaker 3: That story is I was going to say remarkable, but that's probably the wrong word because it probably isn't remarkable in terms of of, you know, the reality of how regularly that shit happens. We did an episode about rage on this show, and one of the questions we were discussing on it was about midlife rage and whether it is all hormonal or if there's an element of what you were just describing which happened to you when you were eighteen, which is this like I'm sick of this shit, you know what I mean? Whoever you are and wherever you're from. But the thing is is that your experiences that's exactly what you're describing, is like, I'm not gonna lie down and suck up this shit. I'm going to change it. I'm going to speak out. It takes a lot of bravery to do that, but there's often a lot of women get to this point of life and go I'm fucking done.
00:40:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I've never been that kind of person to shut up. So yeah, it's funny when people, you know, say to me, oh, I think it's great that what you're doing on your Instagram, you know, talk about menopause. It's so brave of you. I'm like, brave, you know? Is that brave? Because to me it's very normal, you know, I think me, you know, it's actually quite abnormal not to tell people stuff. I'm sure sometimes Grace took it down a notch. I definitely like to share stories and like to listen to other people's story because and then you understand people more, you judge less.
00:41:21
Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing that, Grace. Look, I wanted to segue into fashion and the styling work that you do, which might sound like a bit of a pivot from what we're just discussing. But a lot of what you're about is self expression, and I know that's what mid women really struggle with their identity, and that extends to our wardrobes. Right, So obviously you're a stylist with immense experience, and you are clearly very stylish. I can tell just from my little window. But obviously I've been looking at lots of pictures of you too.
00:41:47
Speaker 2: My tracks at bottom. Yet I'm vering tractic.
00:41:50
Speaker 3: I bet they're very cool ones. We're flapping around in midlife trying to figure out who we are now. Part of that is what they look like and what they wear and can I still wear this? Should I still wear that? Can I show this bit of my body? I'm changing? Shake me? Are always jokes that our bodies are all trying to turn themselves into a circle in midlife. They just try that. It's not necessarily about more weight or less weight, but it's this change shape. So what's your best advice for dressing your age? As it were in inverted Commas.
00:42:21
Speaker 2: I don't believe in dressing your age. I believe in if you're happy with what you're wearing, own it. It's all about confidence, how you walk out. You know, like sometimes even as a stylist, I know what suits me and what you know don't suit me. But sometimes I always push myself to dress myself to a point that I haven't. I don't know how to wear this top? How can I push it? Because once you push yourself, you realize there's a whole new world out there, and you realize that, oh, I'm more capable than this. So with some of my clients, you know, who are in middle age, they're always like, oh is this too young for me? I'm like, how much you want to wear this? And they'll be like, really like this look, I'm like, just fucking own it. It's all about how you walk out, you know, you walk out, you go into the room, and you make sure that people are looking at you. It's just an aura or if you're not comfortable wearing it then don't you know, simple as that. But just for yourself, I mean we only live once, right, so why can't I wear a pair of shorts, you know, just because I'm fifty one? I want to own it? You know. So with my men or belly, which you can't really see normally, is because I know how to not enhance past that I don't like. It's all about confidence, and I think when a lot of clothes don't fit, that's when women get stuck and they'll just go back to the old ways. I always say to my clients and when we have a starting session, whether I go and visit them at home, do we do the wardrobe or go shopping with them? I said, be brave. But if you're not the kind of brave person to go all out, just start with something small, like an earring. You know, if you're like an all black dressed in black all theer time, start with a small ear ring which is red, or like embracelet or necklace, something you can take off quite easily. And then you graduate to like maybe a red pair of socks. Maybe if you're wearing all black, maybe red pair shoes to start off worth. Just start with something small. Once you open up that gate, you will be a lot brafer.
00:44:13
Speaker 3: I've seen you describe yourself living in Perth now that sometimes you feel like Moira from Shit's Creep.
00:44:19
Speaker 2: I know.
00:44:20
Speaker 3: I mean, because you've got all the fashion, like you know, and you're like, where am I wearing this too? Who cares I'm wearing?
00:44:27
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, So I mean, I have to say that, you know, perf people are very chill. I've never seen so many like crop tops and like Lulu lemon pens, so many in my life in one place. But I do find myself that I don't have to dress. I mean, I can wear this for five days. No one gives a shit. I don't dress for other people. I dress for myself, you know, and I dress for my husband, you know. And of course, you know, you want your partner to be proud of you. You know. I'm not saying that men had to validate everything that we do. But when your partners say how you look great, you know, in in it, of course you feel good, so you keep doing it. And the end of day, you have to make yourself feel good to start your day. So sometimes I don't even go anywhere special, and I'm like red lips and that, you know, wearing all my jewry or whatever and stuff. It's like because I want to feel good. It's all about feeling good, especially you know, when you're going through menopause.
00:45:16
Speaker 3: What do you love about being the age that you are?
00:45:18
Speaker 2: That I can tell people to fuck off whenever I want, you know, I mean not that I don't do that before. I think, now, I really don't have time for like wenkers. If I don't want to hang out with you, I will tell you, you know, versus before I'll be like, oh, you know, let's be polite, let's be now. I'm just like, you know what, I don't have time to see people I like, let alone people I don't like. So I'm very precious with my time. Yeah. And also I I just don't give a fuck anymore, you know, Like I think coming from Hong Kong and you know, lived in London of a life and it's tricky to come to a place like Perth because it's so chill. But I think at a certain age, you don't want to go to all these parties anymore. You don't want to hang out with assholes, you know, don't want to be seen in a certain place. You know, Like my great night out is watching Netflix at home with my husband. Yeah, go to bed and at ten o'clock, you know, ten thirty later is you know. One interesting thing that happened with my Taste book during this whole perimenopause thing is that I completely lost interest in them alcohol. So I haven't been drinking at all. For like the past two years. But we started drinking less before anyway. I mean not that we're big drinkers, maybe like a glass here and there, but now completely is so not interested. I think your taste change a lot during this whole perimenopause phase.
00:46:39
Speaker 3: They do, and also realizing what you want to feel like you know, the next day, and all those things that it can change so much.
00:46:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. I also think that I say no to toxic people much easier now compared to before. And I think it's really important for women, especially going through this stage, to be surrounded by people that understand you and support you, because this is so much shit you have to deal with every day, and if you're surrounded by people don't support you, it's a very hot journey, heart, and very long journey.
00:47:10
Speaker 3: That's amazing. So, friends, that was our first dance with the hormonal monster. What did you think? Did you relate? Do you agree with Grace that some of this shit has to change at a systemic level for women to be able to live their lives at their full lives with grace and energy and without shame. Please tell us we love reviews here on mid They help us reach more women, So please feel free to pop into wherever you're listening to this and leave us one. And if you want to hear more about lives upturned in midlife, may I suggest you go back to our invisibility episode of season two with the author Jane Tara. She found herself on her fiftieth birthday, dumped via text and with a bankrupt business and a whole pile of mester to clean up. Her story of pulling herself back into focus is extraordinary too. If you want to find out more about Grace, her business and her menopause advocacy work, all the links are in our show notes and also, excitingly, as you would have gathered from that, Grace has an excellent rollerdex of the kind of people you should be following and listening to for information about menopause and perimenopause. And we are also going to share all of those Remember, though, do your own research, taught to your medical professionals, because we can't verify everything that's in all of those links, of course, but they are the places that Grace finds really helpful information and maybe you will too. Big love to you, my friends. We'll see you next week when I am talking to an Australian journalist about whom the word esteemed could have been coined about something that brings our lives all sorts of joy and comfort and nourishment.
00:48:45
Speaker 2: Food.
00:48:46
Speaker 3: And thank you to our amazing mid team executive producer Named Brown, our producer Charlie Blackman, and audio produces Leah Porge's and Tom Lyon.
00:48:56
Speaker 2: See you next week.
00:49:09
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. What an epic pivot. Thanks for hanging out with us again today. We'll be back next week with a chat about sex, getting enough too much? Does it hurt?
00:49:19
Speaker 3: Why?
00:49:19
Speaker 1: Where did a libidos go? What can we do to chase it down again? That is all coming your way from next week, so we'll see you then and if you'd like more mid More, Grace Lamb a little bit of Unleashed while you're there. We have links to all of those shows in our show notes. Well is produced by me Claire Murphy and Grace Rouverre, with audio production by Scott Stronik, Social production by Ellie Moore and video production by Julian Rosario. Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land. We've recorded this podcast on the Galligall people of the Urination and the Wanneroer people. We pay our respects to their elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and torrestrat Islander cultures.
Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mea podcast. Why Hello there, it's Claire here. I hope you're well today, pun intended. We've been chatting a bit about some hormone related things recently, and honestly, there's barely a condition that we haven't been able to find some kind of hormone connection too. But today we've got a special one for you. One of the shows in the Muma Mia staple is called Mid, and it speaks to women of a certain age about a lot of things that could be happening in their lives around midlife. Holly Wayne Wright, who you might know from our other podcast, Mum and Me Are Out Loud, is the host of Mid. She's truly such a wonderful, warm and kind human and that really comes through in the conversation she's had on the show over the years. In this episode of Mid, she speaks to Grace Lamb, who's also joined the Mum and MEA team just quietly as co host of the very funny Unleashed podcast, which you should definitely check out if you want to have a really good laugh today. But in this episode, Grace, a former high fashion editor for Vogue, talks about how her hormones really turned her life completely upside down, and that experience took her all the way to the WA Senate to discuss the changes this country needs to make to better support women going through this transition. Check it out.
00:01:28
Speaker 2: For me.
00:01:29
Speaker 3: Sobbing in a tent was the first sign not unreasonable. Of course, camping is bullshit. But the day I found myself crying, flinging things around a polyester palace so sleep deprived I could barely stand, I began to wonder if maybe this wasn't me me it was me on Perry? Was that why I was suddenly so anxious, so short of breath and spinny of brain? Were hormones to blame for those sparkly auras and ask kicking headaches? Why couldn't I remember the word for for my grain anymore? I think you know the answer. In fact, I know you do, because when I asked you, my mid friends, what your hormonal tell was the most surprising and weird thing that began to happen to you when you landed here in the decade of menopausal change. You told me. Oh, you told me. You told me so much and so well that I've written you a poem a sonnet, maybe a song, perhaps a love note at the very least to all my mid sisters. I see you, you see each other. Maybe we should call it the Ballad of Perry and Mennow, the least amusing characters in the Ladies Pixar cartoon about a woman's hormonal life. Let's start with hair loss, a banging heart and throwing it back to acne, vertigo, itchy ears and saw hips, welcoming in a flare of ibs, and a couple of panic attacks, crawling skin, tasting metal and frozen shoulder. And did we mention the never ever sleeping, A sudden onset idiot allergy, sore feet and no libido, fury, roseatia and self loathing, forgetfulness, oceans of tears and leaky wee dry eyes, a scratchy head, and an absence of shits to give. And then there are the clots and the flooding and angry vagina rage, a missing waste and waking in a puddle, crumbly teeth and self doubt and a permanent hangover, restless legs, a shrivellly vadge and ginger vitis tinatus and a beard. Oh sorry, we forgot again to mention the anxiety, the sudden pounding, life halting panic. Oh we did. That must be the brain fog. Welcome mids to my tent and yours. We're all in this together, just not at the same time. That would be a sight to see.
00:04:00
Speaker 1: Hello.
00:04:01
Speaker 3: I am Holly Wainwright and I am mid, mid life, mid family, mid search for my hormone patches. When we invented mid, some people form a guest Kyli Gillies amongst them, perhaps said to me, it's not just going to be a show about hot flushes, is it. Well, no, it's not. Well, it wasn't until that intro that I just wrote for you. Maybe it was a little much, but you're a hard bunch to shock. Thank you to all the mids who sent me their most surprising hormonal symptoms that we turned into that intro. We made it as far as episode eighteen to the show for gen X women who are anything but and we haven't even tackled the big m yet or you know, the big pe menopause, Perry menopause, the change, you know, all that stuff that we're not meant to talk about, all that stuff that's a bit you know, embarrassing, awkward, old, and yet suddenly women are talking about it. It's as if when the rebellious women of Gen X lost our estrogen, we found our voices looking around and going, hold up, We're just supposed to put up with all this. If it's true that the generation above are rolling their eyes about us because they rode the hormone roller coaster with rolled up sleeves and gritted teeth, you know, we're sorry, not sorry about that. This is a show about grown up women, and we could do many, many episodes about hormones and perry and menopause, and you know what, we probably will. But here is our first And if you haven't met Grace Lamb yet, you're going to be very glad you did. Grace once gave Kate Moss a pair of her own knickers to wear on a fashion shoot. Yes you heard that right. For more than twenty five years, Grace lived and breathed the rarefied air of high fashion, working for and with everyone from yes, Kate Moss and all of the supermodels to Edward Ennenfall, who's an OBE. She's worked all over the world and was part of the launch team of Vague China staying in Asia then for twelve years before coming to settle in Perth with her husband and her son and to build a new business, which is a bespoke styling and shopping service with an emphasis on mid women. Everything was going according to plan for the talented, organized, focused Grace until hormones entirely upended her tidy world. She's going to tell you about exactly what that felt like. Fast forward a few years and Grace has become a loud and important voice for women being messed with by their hormones. She's bought her voice all the way to the halls of government. She's recently just appeared, for example, before the Western Australian Senate public hearing on issues about perry and menopause, telling government what we actually need to change systemically in our medical institutions to catch up with what we all need. Grace is sharp and funny and honest and nobleshit like you. I think you're going to like her. Oh and she's sweary, so yes, you're definitely going to like her. I want to start with how you saw yourself and your life before perry menopause. So I want you to paint me a picture of grace pre aged forty eight.
00:07:10
Speaker 2: I wasn't even thinking about perimenopause and menipause. First of all, I didn't know the word perimenopause existed. I've always heard only menopause. My life was as normal as you can imagine. When I was living in Hong Kong. So I'm from Hong Kong originally, but i lived most of my life in London, so I'm a true Londoner Hong Kong and life was great. You know. I've got one clube Perth just before COVID, and everything was fine, you know, And then suddenly one night it hit me like a brick and everything changed that night.
00:07:43
Speaker 3: You moved to Perth with your family, and you are going about your busy, hyper organized life, and then what happens when perimenopause hits you like a train It.
00:07:53
Speaker 2: Really hit me like a train wreck. One night I was like sleeping, and then suddenly I could not see for the next four or five weeks, just out of the blue.
00:08:01
Speaker 3: When you say that, do you mean literally you couldn't sleep for four weeks? Because I've heard you say this like insomnia for that long.
00:08:07
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah. When I first came to PERF. I was so burned up just from having like this fashion life in Hong Kong and London whatever and stuff. Right, I hadn't stopped, like I don't know how many years, like twenty years. So when I came to Perf, because Perf is so chill, I was like, Okay, I'm just going to take some time off work. I'm not going to do anything. And then COVID hit was just like kind of a good timing in a way, so I wasn't stressed, and I was like, am I stressed? I'm not stressed, not working, you know, I'm just taking some time off, so I'm not stressed, So why am I not sleeping? So the first few days I thought, oh, maybe it's just something happened, like maybe I'm kind of like, you know, unconscious stress. And then when it started hitting like the second week, the third, I was like this, this is weird. Something's not right. And I couldn't even comprehend what was happening because I hadn't researched anything. I didn't know anything. I kind of start feeling like my brain was out of my head for most days, just couldn't put sentence together. And it's not because I've got bad English. It just felt so surreal. I felt like I was having like an out of body experience every day for the next at least four to five weeks. And because I followed Diavina McCall from UK, a very famous TV presenter and she's a huge menopause advocate, I started tapping through the whole menopause world. And then, of course, you know, she team up with Dr Nami Porter, who wrote a brilliant book Menopausing, and then I discovered doctor Louis Nusan. You know, all these amazing women that helped me through the time when I felt so lost in my life, like she still know what was happening. And my mood swing was like up and down like you a roller coaster. I mean, I'm a moody bitch anyway, and I can go from zero to a thousand within a second. But I've calmed down so much more for the past five years. And I felt like something wasn't right, and I knew, you know, the kind of menopause rage is so different from your normal rage. You feel it in your bones that it's kind of like a different part of your brain that's happening and I think the day when my husband said to me, he probably said something like, what's you want for dinner? And I just blew up and I had a kid bin and I dented it and I was like, whoa. I mean, my comfortable skills is great, but not this great. You know, I just knew something was happening.
00:10:20
Speaker 3: It's so interesting. So it started with insomnia. Now I'm going to ask you to list some of your symptoms in a minute, because I have listened to the remarks that you gave to the Perth Senate on their menopause inquiry, and the list is long. But for the women listening, it's interesting because when these things first start happening to you, you don't know that's what it is. And then as you say that, your pennies began to drop and you began to see this information around from Divine and McCall and others. It can be hard to see the wood for the trees, right like you're kind of like, oh, I'm moody, Oh I'm sleepless, Oh I'm this, and that you started to keep a diary, didn't you of your symptoms? And can you tell me some of the other things apart from the sleeplessness and rage that were happening to you in this period.
00:11:03
Speaker 2: I had like breast tenderness, which was weird, you know, and then palpitation. It wasn't severe, but I felt like sometimes my heart will miss a beat, and I was like, this is kind of weird. Tinatus. I couldn't hear At one point, at the beginning stage, I was so sensitive too noise, to a point that wh you know, if my husband bashed pots and pans, I'd be like out, you know. And then joint pain. You know, my fingers start getting really like painful. And then I gain a lot of like belly fat and kind of crawley skin a little bit. I just felt tired. And then oh, the weirdest thing was I started feeling driving anxiety, which I know is a symptom, but I didn't know it was a symptom then. And I started being very nervous about driving. Forgot say, I'm an F one Formula one fan. Even though I drive very safely, I'm all about, you know, like watching F one. I'm like, why am I scared of driving? I thought, oh, maybe because I'm kind of newish to PERF I'm like, no, you know this. It was so weird. It was very strange. I would get into the curt and I'd feel nervous not to mention that people in PERF drive like crazy, which is kind of really weird. You know, it's such a chill place where people drive like lunatics here.
00:12:13
Speaker 3: Because this was a period of change for you anyway, right with the career change in moving to a new country. You obviously are a very high achieving woman. You're juggling being a mom, you're juggling being a wife. Were you hard on yourself at that time before you began to get the.
00:12:26
Speaker 2: Help you needed?
00:12:27
Speaker 3: Was it also like a bash to your self esteem to think, why am I suddenly this messy, angry, anxious lady.
00:12:35
Speaker 2: No. I mean I've always been quite a confident person. I wasn't hard on myself in that sense, but I was hard on myself on my to do list every day, you know, even though I wasn't working full time, I had a lot of to do lists. You know, clean this, do that, you know, no, no, no, you know, make home, make cookies or whatever and stuff. And when I wasn't doing that, I was so pissed off at myself. I'm not good mother. I'm not this, I'm not you know. I would to do this, do all everything right. It's not up until maybe last year I started telling myself small wins are the real wins, rather than like all these like massive fucking to do lists. I mean, who's got the time, you know, when you're like a full time mom and you've got things you get shited done. I mean, to do list every day just too massive. And I started saying to myself, Okay, out of the ten things, if you do three things, you're winning. So as soon as I took that kind of mindset, it really helped me to like take it easier on myself a bit more. I'm always been quite confident women, but I think sometimes I would have self doubt to a point that I was like, that's so weird because I'm so confident. Why am I having all these feelings? And once I acknowledge it, I'm like, you know, step myself out of it. I'm like, you know what, You're not that kind of woman, you know, just step up.
00:13:48
Speaker 3: You feel like you're turning into someone else, don't you. It's really strange. So then once you've realized this, and as you say you're following some amazing advocates online. You needed to get yourself some practical help, so you were very deliberate about who you wanted to seek out to help.
00:14:03
Speaker 2: You.
00:14:03
Speaker 3: Tell me about how you first approached getting medical help.
00:14:06
Speaker 2: At this point, I started a menopause group chat with two moms at my son's schools because they are going through paring menopause. The first thing I told them is to start a diary, which helps so much as I write every single details down, whether you have a twitch in your eye or whatever and stuff. I said, all these symptoms that you don't think is important, they make all the puzzles together when you go and see a GP or your specialists. I have a great clinic near where I live, so I normally go there for anything, right, so I deliberately chosen an Asian GP. She's a bit older than me and she's a super nice lady. I deliberately chose her because she's Asian and I know that she's going through menopause, so I thought, oh, she can relate to me. But she didn't know much. I have to tell her quite a lot because before I went I did shitloads of homework and doctor Narmie Porter has gave advice about what you need to say when you're going to your first appointment. I didn't know that I could ask for an extension appointment, so my oppointment was like maybe maximum eight minutes. It's really short. You know. My list of questions was just far too long. I mean, I probably need an hour. She gave me eight minutes maximum, and then you know, gave me some sleeping pills and that was it. And I was like, I don't worry. I don't actually use the sleeping pills because I don't want to be addicted to it, even though I wasn't sleeping for like four or five weeks. But it just goes to show how little GP knows about menopause. It baffles me because you know, half the population is a woman exactly.
00:15:29
Speaker 3: And also, as you said, you were very deliberate in seeking out a GP who you thought would know what you were talking about. But women like you who are arming yourself with the information, we're finding ourselves sometimes going into the doctor's sidery and having to be well, I like doing like we're the ones giving the information. It's crazy before we move on. Didn't you say in your Senate presentation notes that she told you sleeping pills and don't take HRT because it gives you cancer. Did she say that?
00:15:55
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah she did. And then first of all, I asked hers, so do I need a charity? She go, oh, no, no, because you don't have hot flashes. So to her, if you don't have hot flashes, you don't need charity, which is stupid as a stupid meant to make because obviously from that moment I knew she knew nothing, So I was like, what the hell you know? I wasn't mean to her because she's you know, it's not her fault, but I was like, you actually don't know a lot, and it's kind of quite disheartening for me to come to you and you don't know much and you just gave me sleeping because this is not the way forward. How are we going to deal with this? And she said, just come back in two weeks after you've taken the sleeping pills. I was like, oh, you know, for fuck's sake, you know. And that's when I knew that if you find a GP that knows her shit or his shit about menopause, it's kind of like you wonder lottery. But then different friends told me about menopause specialists. So I actually went to see, you know, my first doctor, and I've got two doctors. Now I've changed I'm entering my second next face of my perimenopause journey, so I've changed doctor. So going to a specialist changed my life. But it costs so much money.
00:16:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, So you walk out of your GP. And this is a lot of the women listening will have had experiences like this, Like when I talk to women who were not maybe as plugged into all this menopause information as you became, and I am, obviously through my work and things, they'll say, oh, well, I'm not a candidate for HRT because XYZ or they do still have that lingering cancer myth bubbling around in their head. So they'll walk out of the GP just feeling disheartened and lost at that point and probably just be suffering through what comes next. Your advice to those women would be to find menopause specialists in their area and then what happens.
00:17:35
Speaker 2: I think for those who can't take HRT, there are so many ways you can help yourself. Change of diet, your lifestyle is number one. I mean, through this whole journey. I've learned so much about nutrition, food, diet, exercise, which I was never about before. You know, I think when I had my son eleven years ago, I became more health conscious, but not to this level. So the past two years, I've actually learned so much from all these people. I mean, if anyone needs help, just DM me on my Instagram and I will help you. It just got to your point that so many women have messaged me and said, oh, I can't find a GP to it. I've helped people up in Melbourne or Sydney with GPS that I know. It's kind of crazy. It's almost like if you don't know where to start, you're so lost and you're going through all these symptoms, then your mom or your grandmother was like, oh, don't worry, it's such soldier on like I did, and like I do, not encourage soldiering on. And I almost wish that women would just help themselves by giving yourself more options. You know, there's so much misinformation out there. You also have to be very careful what to read and who to follow to get legit, you know, data, And I wish people could stop reading that stupid fucking report from two thousand and two Women's Health Initiatives. Stop reading that fucking report is so old. And they were testing women over sixties anyway who are too late in a way for HRT and it was all oral XRT. So can we just stop using that your standard of judging HRT. You know, we've got such modern medication now it's completely different.
00:19:07
Speaker 3: It's been so discredited. So when you did find your menopause specialist, what's different about that appointment? Like when you go in there, what were you beginning to hear there that actually started to help you.
00:19:18
Speaker 2: That she didn't deny it was perimenopause. My first GP who didn't know anything. She didn't deny it, but she couldn't give more information. Whereas my menopause specialists, the first doctor, doctor Lucy Kart, she didn't deny it. We discussed, We had a one hour consultation, you know, it was great, and then all my questions were answered, and then together we planned the whole you know, hrit road, where we're going to start, what we're going to do, how we're going to change it in it, all of that and then now with you know, my new doctor, doctor Sunita from here a clinic, same thing. You know, they are just a lot more thoughtful and they know their shit. They know you know everything that will help you. You know. They all have different ways. You know, Doctor Sonita now is very She's super practical, which I love. And also through this journey, I I realized that there's so many companies out there just using a menopause topic to capitalize on menopause a woman because they just feel like, you know what, I can sell shit to these women and they would buy anything. And I just want to say that I don't really believe in supplements unless through your blood test you shown deficiency, you know, in a certain element, like for example, I am deficient of vitamin D at a moment, so I am taking supplements. But in general I wouldn't advise anyone just to go and buy all these side you know, just don't waste your money.
00:20:41
Speaker 3: That is music to my ears, grace, because I did that over the last two years. I've had my own journey with perimenopause and menopause, and I was the person who was just desperately reaching for I must have ordered every supplement on I herb in the world, and they we're getting delivered to me, and then I took so many of all the wrong things. I ended up getting really sick. And my doctor, who is actually a very good female, gp on this is but she says exactly what you say. She says, if your diet is good, do not take all the snake oil supplements that everybody's selling. You find out what you actually need. Because we're all flapping around so desperately trying to find answers to why we suddenly feel like completely different people. We're very vulnerable to being sold a whole lot of stuff we don't need, right.
00:21:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Now I've learned that I will not go to a clinic that self supplements anymore. It's a different priority for them. I don't know. I just don't like people capitalizing on us when we're very vulnerable. It's just not right. And if you have a really good healthy diet, you know, protein, you know, eat in a fiber, eat your fermental food, exercise, all these are so much more important. And popping I think the problem with people, not just menopause a woman, we want a quick fix, whether it's a sempic or diet. You know, we just want to pop the pill and don't have to do any work, but unfortunately you do have to do a lot of work when you're going through a perimenopause.
00:22:10
Speaker 3: I'll be back with more of my conversation with Grace Slam in a moment, but first here's a message from the presenting partners of ASHA. We are generally often at a very busy phase in our lives as well. You know, we're often parenting, we might be dealing with aging parents who are often working like it feels like another job sometimes, which is why it's so important to understand who to trust. In your presentation too, well, you have to tell me how the whole your involvement in the Perth Senate inquiry came about. But in that you talk about the cost and you actually list out what you have and do end up spending on this, and you're advocating obviously for more support on this front. What kind of support do we need? And do you know if there are places in the world that are doing this a lot better than Australia.
00:22:55
Speaker 2: I think the UK is definitely leading the way because they've just got so many amazing great menopause advocates over there. I mean, their charity costs twenty pounds per year with all hormones. It's just it blows my mind, you know, Like, so I'm taking estrogen and progesterone, and the progesterone is permetrium that costs like is it seventy five or something like that. So basically each month I will have to spend at least two hundred dollars, right, but not including the supplements I used to take. So each month I will have to probably like span four five hundred dollars, but not to mention all the scans that I have to do, breast scans, perfect scans, this and that, and then go and see like you know, like a breast cancer specialist. I mean, of course you go public, but the queue is so long that you won't preceed until got knows when. Right, I didn't encounter these kinds of extra costs when I started this journey. And then you realize that the pharmaceutical benefit scheme they don't cover all hormones, but with men they do. You know, men can get like testosterone for like you know, a subsidy, of course, so why can't we get all these three homones that are so important to us? You know, testosterone is not only for men. It's for women as well. You know. Well, so basically what happened was when I started this whole journey. And you can see I'm not a shy woman. I've always been like, if I don't like someone, I fucking tell them. Man. You know, I don't go, oh my god, I'm just not that kind of person.
00:24:19
Speaker 3: You're good at what we call advocating for yourself.
00:24:21
Speaker 2: Yes, and ever since I was very young, I actually believe that I'm like the recarnation of Bruce Lei.
00:24:27
Speaker 3: Anyway, I was going to ask you where you reckon that confidence comes from?
00:24:31
Speaker 1: Now I know?
00:24:32
Speaker 2: Well, also I think being a twin and the youngest girls are four to fight my battles with my sisters, and I don't know, I think I was just pawn kind of like feisty and just like don't fuck with me kind of attitude. Anyway, back to menopause. So I was going through this journey and I was like, it's so weird that people don't talk about it, right, I've never heard any of my cousins, my female cousins of like friends in Hong Kong, they never speak about this.
00:24:57
Speaker 3: Why do you think that is? What's your theory on why we haven't until this moment been comfortable speaking about it.
00:25:03
Speaker 2: Peop were just embarrassed because that means that we're old.
00:25:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, this age is right one hundred percent.
00:25:08
Speaker 2: And also, what I find weird is that when people meet me, first of all, they can't believe I speak really good English. They're always like, oh, your English is so good, and I was like, that's a fucked up thing to say. I started saying, you know, especially to white people, your English is also good, and they're like, oh, you know, I think when people meet me they can't believe first I'm like fifty one, and they're like, oh my god, you look so yeah. No, no, no, no, which is kind of like a compliment. But at the same time, I'm like, what do you think a fifty one woman should look like? An Asian woman look like like super young, or like why would you say that? Even it sounds like a compliment, is actually quite annoying for me because you kind of like typecasting, you know, Asian women, right. And also I just want to normalize the conversation right from the start. So when I meet men, especially, I always tell them if I have a brain fup moment, it's because of my perimenopause. They're like what. I'm like, yeah, it's my perimenopause brainfall. And if I do any probic speaking is the first thing I bring it up, because I want to normalize that conversation. You know what, People get used to it because every other woman is going to go through the same thing, and people sometimes don't know how to take it, and I'm like, you know what, fucking deal with it.
00:26:18
Speaker 3: I love this, right, Grace, because I'm a little bit the other way in that I can be very I don't want you to think that my hormones are impeding me being good at my job or able to do this or able to do that. So I often kind of minimize it. And I love that attitude of like, no, we need to normalize it, and then that way we unpick that stereotype. I also wanted to ask you, though, about the aging and people telling you look good for your age and all that nonsense. Living and working in the world that you had worked in all those years. Were you worried about aging? Like, were you worried about that from an external perspective?
00:26:56
Speaker 2: Now? I wasn't even thinking about it during my whole twenty seven years of working in fashion industry. I think when I was younger, in my twenties, I was more jaded than anything, because after I knew or how much these supermodels were earning, you know, by walking down the catwall, and I was there doing one of the toughest job as an assistant, last one to leave, first one to get there, just sorting up shit for people. You know. I'm like, I'm going to pay peanuts compared to these women who are just they're taller, they've got an amazing face, you know. Figure. I think I was more jaded than anything, but luckily my character doesn't let me go to that dark side. And I was like, well, different people, different purpose in life, right. I think when I started this whole perimenopaust journey, I just want to break the stigma of menopausa women. I want to show that we are also very fashionable. We are not all dowdy. I think it's the image that really annoys me about menopausa woman or women above a certain age, And what I find quite interesting with some younger women, I sometimes I always feel like they think they're like invincible and then they're never going to get old. I want to tell them that you will get to my stage at one point and then you realize that, you know what, this older woman, I shouldn't have made fun of them. I shouldn't have all that, not just younger girls that you know, men as well, Right, when men get older, they could always go for younger girls, you know, not old men. I'm not generalizing, but when we get old, or when we have great hair, we're like trying to hide out, trying to like, you know, die her doing all that, and it's like we've passed a prime. One of the recommendations from the Senate Inquiry hearing is to have a new campaign for menopause. Me and my friend Maria from Perry Pausa who lives in Melbourne. You know, she called me, She's like, hey, let's talk about this. You know, we'll do a new campaign. And when we were talking on the phone just two weeks ago, it's certainly dawned on me. I had a really great idea, and I want to change how we perceived in society. That can we stop just showing like really elderly women like laughing, you know, smiling, you know, I just want to make it really cool and relatable to younger women. And younger girls and boys and men to change the whole dynamic of how they see midlife women. It's very important, you know, especially that you can't use the old methods anymore, and this has to be a new way of seeing it. There has to be a new way.
00:29:19
Speaker 3: I'm going to ask you a little in a little bit about some of your advice about that for those of us who are feeling ourselves turning invisible. But to be back to this, you finally get the help you need. You've now been on HRT for a while. Where do you feel you're at now?
00:29:33
Speaker 2: Like?
00:29:33
Speaker 3: How do you feel in terms of giving women who are listening to this and struggling with it hope? Like do you feel amazing? Do you feel like your old self? Do you feel like an evolved version? Has the HRT fixed everything? Where are you now?
00:29:46
Speaker 2: Okay? So when I first started my HRIT, I was on a very low dose of estrogen, like twenty five strength mcg, which is the lowest dose because we need to test out how my body will react to it. That night, I slept like a baby. So I know I'm one of the rare women that work immediately. Some woman takes like a year, six months or three months for it to happen. I was very lucky to have that kind of magic touch, you know. I would say, if I wasn't on this hrty journey, I think I would have been such a bitch my son and my husband. I can't tell you how great this journey has been. I've learned so much, and charity has given me my life back. And I really wish that women would just give it a girl, if you can take it. Some of my friends who are prone to cancer, they are also on a charity because they weigh out the pros and cons I mean, talk to your doctor. You know, we're not medical doctors. We can't give medical advice, but I would definitely weigh out the pros and cons versus Soldiering on chrity has changed my life. I feel so normal now. I get eight hours sleep. I mean I still wake up now and then the brain fog still happens, but it's less severe. But I find that when I speak, I guess because English is my second language, sometimes I find it quite like the puzzle doesn't match as quickly as before, so sometimes I go blank. I was talking to someone about giving birth and I couldn't remember for the life of me. So I can't even remember now, you know, when I had a C section and then they gave me a pa dura. I couldn't remember a per durl for months. It was so weird. I'm I should know that word, come on, you know, stuff like that. So it really helped me to gain my life back and just to be like a nice person. I'm not a nice woman.
00:31:29
Speaker 3: I love this, I love you. You have let go of that people pleasing. I want people to like me. Stuff a lot of women struggle with and then when they hit midlife and suddenly go I hate everybody, it's a really big shock for them. You're going, look, I was kind of like that anyway.
00:31:43
Speaker 2: But I just yeah, I played menopause. It's been a whole eye opening journey and I wouldn't change a thing because through this whole journey, I met so many amazing women in Australia and worldwide, you know, in UK, I've made so many online friends and it's a great community. And also I want to, you know, tell the audience that just be very careful when you go on Facebook and join the menopause group. There's so much like misinformation out there, and I really advise you to seek professional help because some of those advice I'm just like so shocked on when people like suggest this and that, and yeah, it's just be very careful about where you get your information from.
00:32:21
Speaker 3: You gave evidence to the percent and inquiry, you gave a presentation. What's the outcome of that that you want, and what are the main things that you think that like a systemic changes that can make things better for us rather than things that we can do.
00:32:34
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, so many, so many, But there are twenty five recommendations. I haven't had time to read all in it because I think it's about one hundred and sixty something pages, this report, but I urge everyone to go on the government website or go on my Instagram grade and style. I put it on my biolink so you can read everything. First of all, education across the board, medical system or GPS, nurses, and I want I would love for everyone to work together. Psychiatrists, therapists, you know, physio nutritionist, dieticians, everyone can jump boughtant helps all related. You know, how you eat, what you do, what exercise you do. You know, I'm not my first doctor, said to be that I shouldn't do hit exercise because of you know, perimenopause. Then I realized that after do more research that actually you can do a certain amount, but you're not overdo it to stress your body. And then my other friend was like, you know, recommending trainer for me. But then I'm not I'm not going to go for a trainer who's like twenty years old, don't know what's going through.
00:33:33
Speaker 3: That's my whole thing is, I'm like, if I'm going to get a train that I'm scanning for the older face in the room.
00:33:38
Speaker 2: Exactly one hundred percent, you know. So I want GPS to have mandatory and your revision training because they need to be you know, updated with the new technology, new symptoms, and to have longer GP consultations for all women, a lot more subsidies on medication for all three hormones that we need testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone, and to give more funding to all the scanning and checks that we need need because at a moment, it's just all out of my pocket and it's just like I'm a freelancer, you know, I just can't keep like giving out five hundred dollars here and then for one skin, and also education in middle school and high school and universities so that boys and girls know what's coming for them, and especially men they need to know.
00:34:28
Speaker 3: I think that those are a great place to start because I think that when people are like, well, what can be done, it's like, those are very practical things that can be done, like better awareness and training across the board, you know, for the medical profession, more subsidies for what we need medically, Like that's it feels like that should be table.
00:34:44
Speaker 2: Stakes andause leave at workplace, and also educating employers employees at a workplace so there's snow stigma, you know, no buyers when they take time off or no judgment and women can feel like they can have a conversation with their boss or like their colleagues without being judged. You know, this is the thing about this whole menopause top because people don't want to be judged. Oh yet she oh she's past her prime. You know. I'm like, we're all going to get old. Men include it, so we need to stop that kind of like judgmental conversation. Yeah, and for the government to jomp on board, I mean, come on, you know, surely they'veore got wives, sisters, cousins and mothers, you know, and daughters, So don't they want to have a happy wife, happy life, happy taught to heavy life, you.
00:35:28
Speaker 3: Know, and tap into our wisdom and experience.
00:35:31
Speaker 2: Right.
00:35:31
Speaker 3: We're smart as That's the thing I tell people all the time. We're the people you want to hire and listen to because we've been around the block and we understand how the world works. I'll be back in a moment. I was really curious to know where all this grit and sort of bolshey determination came from in grace, and you're about to find out it isn't what I was expecting. You've said a lot about the stigma and stereotyping of experience as an Asian woman living in the UK and Australia. How do you think that those challenges is a bit intersected with the aging and menopause journey, particularly with the medical community.
00:36:12
Speaker 2: I mean, I think Asian women, I've always had a reputation of being very you not all because I know a lot of strong, like upspoken Asian women as well. Sometimes you know, when I don't have my resting bitch face on, people think I'm kind of because I'm Asian. They think first I don't speak too English, and then because I banter a lot with people, they don't expect it, and they think I'm like Dosa, really like demure, you know, really like quiet. So I think that's why I became who I am, because I want to break that kind of Asian woman stigma. Not so because I had a bad racist attack in the UK when I lived there. I was actually beaten up by this guy, this random guy at the bus stop in Brighton, and because I was so a Chinese girl, he basically kicked the shit out of me and told me to go back to where I came from.
00:37:01
Speaker 3: Shit, how old were you then, Grace?
00:37:03
Speaker 2: Oh my god. So I mean there's racist some everywhere, you know. I think just being Asian and being Chinese, people have this kind of image of us being really quiet and we don't speak out. I mean, I've had quite a lot of racism here in Australia, a lot more in the past few years compared to the twenty years I've lived in the.
00:37:20
Speaker 3: UK, like avert racism. I mean, I know, racism's racism, but.
00:37:24
Speaker 2: I mean during COVID, I was very aware of racism here because I saw on the Internet that people in the East Coast were attacking like Chinese people because they thought that, you know, Chinese people, you know, they broke COVID. And I was very aware and very careful when I went out in Perth, especially when I was with my son, and I almost felt like part of me was a bit lost, The fire was lost in me because I was so scared people was going to attack me, especially when I was with my son. So my husband will come with me everywhere because he's white, and he was being very protective. But I was on my birthday the day. I was, you know, just going for a walk on myself, and my husband was away down south of Perth. He's a photographer doing some documentary any for a job. So I was by myself, you know, with my son and he went to school. So I went for a walk. Is it my birthday? This middle aged white guy cycled past me and he was like, go back to you fucking came from your fucking Chinese and I was like, I was so shocked that that happened in Perth because I thought perf people are quite chill, and I think because of COVID everything just kind of like blew up. The old grace Lamb would have chased him down the streets, just going you fucking wanker.
00:38:37
Speaker 1: You know.
00:38:37
Speaker 2: I wanted to use the see word, but I don't think I should. I would have just gone off and just go, who the fuck do you think you were? I would just gone off. But because of my older age, I became very wise, and I thought, okay, I'm single parenting this week. I don't want to end up in police station on my birthday? And then what would my son think? And I did all of that, so I bit my tongue and just kept on walking. I was so furious that him and myself, And I think things like this make me think like do I keep on being myself and being very feisty outspoken in this kind of situation or do I go opposite right? And I think when I was attacked when I was eighteen, the next day I change everything, the way I look at things, the way I am with myself. I said to myself, no one is going to fuck with me anymore, and I'm going to stand up for my people. And that's why sometimes when people meet me, they don't understand why I am the way I am, and when I tell them that story, they kind of understand because I want to break the statement not only with menopausal women, but being an Asian woman, I want to break that kind of statement. We're all not quiet, We're all not docile, you know, we have a voice. So and also being a perimenopausal woman, I just want people to think of Asian women differently. Just because we don't get hot flashes as much as I you know, maybe a Western woman doesn't mean that we're not going through so much. You know, at the moment, we're not going through as many symptoms as they are.
00:40:01
Speaker 3: That story is I was going to say remarkable, but that's probably the wrong word because it probably isn't remarkable in terms of of, you know, the reality of how regularly that shit happens. We did an episode about rage on this show, and one of the questions we were discussing on it was about midlife rage and whether it is all hormonal or if there's an element of what you were just describing which happened to you when you were eighteen, which is this like I'm sick of this shit, you know what I mean? Whoever you are and wherever you're from. But the thing is is that your experiences that's exactly what you're describing, is like, I'm not gonna lie down and suck up this shit. I'm going to change it. I'm going to speak out. It takes a lot of bravery to do that, but there's often a lot of women get to this point of life and go I'm fucking done.
00:40:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I've never been that kind of person to shut up. So yeah, it's funny when people, you know, say to me, oh, I think it's great that what you're doing on your Instagram, you know, talk about menopause. It's so brave of you. I'm like, brave, you know? Is that brave? Because to me it's very normal, you know, I think me, you know, it's actually quite abnormal not to tell people stuff. I'm sure sometimes Grace took it down a notch. I definitely like to share stories and like to listen to other people's story because and then you understand people more, you judge less.
00:41:21
Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing that, Grace. Look, I wanted to segue into fashion and the styling work that you do, which might sound like a bit of a pivot from what we're just discussing. But a lot of what you're about is self expression, and I know that's what mid women really struggle with their identity, and that extends to our wardrobes. Right, So obviously you're a stylist with immense experience, and you are clearly very stylish. I can tell just from my little window. But obviously I've been looking at lots of pictures of you too.
00:41:47
Speaker 2: My tracks at bottom. Yet I'm vering tractic.
00:41:50
Speaker 3: I bet they're very cool ones. We're flapping around in midlife trying to figure out who we are now. Part of that is what they look like and what they wear and can I still wear this? Should I still wear that? Can I show this bit of my body? I'm changing? Shake me? Are always jokes that our bodies are all trying to turn themselves into a circle in midlife. They just try that. It's not necessarily about more weight or less weight, but it's this change shape. So what's your best advice for dressing your age? As it were in inverted Commas.
00:42:21
Speaker 2: I don't believe in dressing your age. I believe in if you're happy with what you're wearing, own it. It's all about confidence, how you walk out. You know, like sometimes even as a stylist, I know what suits me and what you know don't suit me. But sometimes I always push myself to dress myself to a point that I haven't. I don't know how to wear this top? How can I push it? Because once you push yourself, you realize there's a whole new world out there, and you realize that, oh, I'm more capable than this. So with some of my clients, you know, who are in middle age, they're always like, oh is this too young for me? I'm like, how much you want to wear this? And they'll be like, really like this look, I'm like, just fucking own it. It's all about how you walk out, you know, you walk out, you go into the room, and you make sure that people are looking at you. It's just an aura or if you're not comfortable wearing it then don't you know, simple as that. But just for yourself, I mean we only live once, right, so why can't I wear a pair of shorts, you know, just because I'm fifty one? I want to own it? You know. So with my men or belly, which you can't really see normally, is because I know how to not enhance past that I don't like. It's all about confidence, and I think when a lot of clothes don't fit, that's when women get stuck and they'll just go back to the old ways. I always say to my clients and when we have a starting session, whether I go and visit them at home, do we do the wardrobe or go shopping with them? I said, be brave. But if you're not the kind of brave person to go all out, just start with something small, like an earring. You know, if you're like an all black dressed in black all theer time, start with a small ear ring which is red, or like embracelet or necklace, something you can take off quite easily. And then you graduate to like maybe a red pair of socks. Maybe if you're wearing all black, maybe red pair shoes to start off worth. Just start with something small. Once you open up that gate, you will be a lot brafer.
00:44:13
Speaker 3: I've seen you describe yourself living in Perth now that sometimes you feel like Moira from Shit's Creep.
00:44:19
Speaker 2: I know.
00:44:20
Speaker 3: I mean, because you've got all the fashion, like you know, and you're like, where am I wearing this too? Who cares I'm wearing?
00:44:27
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, So I mean, I have to say that, you know, perf people are very chill. I've never seen so many like crop tops and like Lulu lemon pens, so many in my life in one place. But I do find myself that I don't have to dress. I mean, I can wear this for five days. No one gives a shit. I don't dress for other people. I dress for myself, you know, and I dress for my husband, you know. And of course, you know, you want your partner to be proud of you. You know. I'm not saying that men had to validate everything that we do. But when your partners say how you look great, you know, in in it, of course you feel good, so you keep doing it. And the end of day, you have to make yourself feel good to start your day. So sometimes I don't even go anywhere special, and I'm like red lips and that, you know, wearing all my jewry or whatever and stuff. It's like because I want to feel good. It's all about feeling good, especially you know, when you're going through menopause.
00:45:16
Speaker 3: What do you love about being the age that you are?
00:45:18
Speaker 2: That I can tell people to fuck off whenever I want, you know, I mean not that I don't do that before. I think, now, I really don't have time for like wenkers. If I don't want to hang out with you, I will tell you, you know, versus before I'll be like, oh, you know, let's be polite, let's be now. I'm just like, you know what, I don't have time to see people I like, let alone people I don't like. So I'm very precious with my time. Yeah. And also I I just don't give a fuck anymore, you know, Like I think coming from Hong Kong and you know, lived in London of a life and it's tricky to come to a place like Perth because it's so chill. But I think at a certain age, you don't want to go to all these parties anymore. You don't want to hang out with assholes, you know, don't want to be seen in a certain place. You know, Like my great night out is watching Netflix at home with my husband. Yeah, go to bed and at ten o'clock, you know, ten thirty later is you know. One interesting thing that happened with my Taste book during this whole perimenopause thing is that I completely lost interest in them alcohol. So I haven't been drinking at all. For like the past two years. But we started drinking less before anyway. I mean not that we're big drinkers, maybe like a glass here and there, but now completely is so not interested. I think your taste change a lot during this whole perimenopause phase.
00:46:39
Speaker 3: They do, and also realizing what you want to feel like you know, the next day, and all those things that it can change so much.
00:46:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. I also think that I say no to toxic people much easier now compared to before. And I think it's really important for women, especially going through this stage, to be surrounded by people that understand you and support you, because this is so much shit you have to deal with every day, and if you're surrounded by people don't support you, it's a very hot journey, heart, and very long journey.
00:47:10
Speaker 3: That's amazing. So, friends, that was our first dance with the hormonal monster. What did you think? Did you relate? Do you agree with Grace that some of this shit has to change at a systemic level for women to be able to live their lives at their full lives with grace and energy and without shame. Please tell us we love reviews here on mid They help us reach more women, So please feel free to pop into wherever you're listening to this and leave us one. And if you want to hear more about lives upturned in midlife, may I suggest you go back to our invisibility episode of season two with the author Jane Tara. She found herself on her fiftieth birthday, dumped via text and with a bankrupt business and a whole pile of mester to clean up. Her story of pulling herself back into focus is extraordinary too. If you want to find out more about Grace, her business and her menopause advocacy work, all the links are in our show notes and also, excitingly, as you would have gathered from that, Grace has an excellent rollerdex of the kind of people you should be following and listening to for information about menopause and perimenopause. And we are also going to share all of those Remember, though, do your own research, taught to your medical professionals, because we can't verify everything that's in all of those links, of course, but they are the places that Grace finds really helpful information and maybe you will too. Big love to you, my friends. We'll see you next week when I am talking to an Australian journalist about whom the word esteemed could have been coined about something that brings our lives all sorts of joy and comfort and nourishment.
00:48:45
Speaker 2: Food.
00:48:46
Speaker 3: And thank you to our amazing mid team executive producer Named Brown, our producer Charlie Blackman, and audio produces Leah Porge's and Tom Lyon.
00:48:56
Speaker 2: See you next week.
00:49:09
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. What an epic pivot. Thanks for hanging out with us again today. We'll be back next week with a chat about sex, getting enough too much? Does it hurt?
00:49:19
Speaker 3: Why?
00:49:19
Speaker 1: Where did a libidos go? What can we do to chase it down again? That is all coming your way from next week, so we'll see you then and if you'd like more mid More, Grace Lamb a little bit of Unleashed while you're there. We have links to all of those shows in our show notes. Well is produced by me Claire Murphy and Grace Rouverre, with audio production by Scott Stronik, Social production by Ellie Moore and video production by Julian Rosario. Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land. We've recorded this podcast on the Galligall people of the Urination and the Wanneroer people. We pay our respects to their elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and torrestrat Islander cultures.
