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Viewpoint on mormon,
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the program that examine the teachings of the
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church of Jesus Christ of Light day saints
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from a biblical perspective.
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Viewpoint on mormon is sponsored by roman Research
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Ministry since 19 said 9. Mormon research ministry
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has been dedicated to equip the body of
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Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in
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a manner that expresses gentleness, v and respect.
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And now your host for today's
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viewpoint on mormon.
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What have L leaders said? About the doctrine
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of the Trinity. Welcome to this edition of
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viewpoint on Mormon. I'm your host Bill Mc
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mccabe, Founder and director of Mormon Research.
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And with me today is Eric Johnson, my
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colleague at r.
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On Monday, we began a series where we're
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going through some of the major differences that
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separate.
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Christianity from the teachings of the Church of
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Jesus Christ of Latter day saints. Many times
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when you talk to a Latter day saint,
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they want to get you the impression that
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we're really pretty much on the same page
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except for some minor differences.
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That's not really true. If and we hope
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this series will bring that out to you.
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We've already looked at what the Latter day
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saints are taught regarding what they believe to
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be. Scripture, and now we're going to be
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looking at the Trinity.
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Mormon
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denies the biblical doctrine of the Trinity,
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And instead, it promotes a quote unquote god
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head that is comprised of 3 gods. Let
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me give you a... Statement from Joseph Smith,
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the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ
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of Latter day saints. He said and this
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can be found in the teachings of the
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prophet Joseph Smith, page 370.
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I have always declared God to be a
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distinct persona.
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Jesus Christ a separate and distinct persona from
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God the father, and the holy ghost, a
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distinct persona or spirit,
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and these 3 constitute
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3 distinct
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and 3
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gods.
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Joseph Smith is making it very clear, though
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he wants to believe that the father son
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and Holy ghost or holy spirit.
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Are
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described as being God. He wants to see
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them as 3 gods, which, of course, biblical,
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you would have a difficulty doing that because
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especially when we look back at Dud 6
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4, hero israel, the Lord our God, the
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Lord is 1, the Jews were known, for
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believing in only 1 God, and sometimes that
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took a lot of criticism from a lot
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of the pagan countries that surrounded them who
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believed in a multi simplicity of gods. But
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there's been other comments made by various L
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leaders that certainly
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hold the Trinity in division. Well, let me
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give you Joseph Smith again because he says
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in teachings of the profit, Joseph Smith page
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3 72, just 2 pages After the quote,
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you just gave, he said many men say
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there is 1 God, the father, the son
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and the Holy Ghost are only 1 God.
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I say that is a strange God anyhow.
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3 and 1, and 1 and 3. It
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is a curious
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organization. All are to be crammed into 1
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God according to sec.
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It would make the biggest God in all
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the world, he would be a wonderfully big
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God. He would be a giant or a
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monster.
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Don't you love Bill the straw man arguments
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that come because he's taken a sacred doctrine
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and he's turned it into some thing that's
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totally ridiculous. And yet, he doesn't understand what
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the Trinity is to be able to make
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such a comment. Now it's interesting you say
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that, Eric, because I remembered this, this conversation
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I had with 1 man out on the
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streets of man tied during the Mormon Miracle
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pageant years ago.
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He asked me. Oh, are you 1 of
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those Christians that believe in the Trinity, and
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I says, well, of course, because that is
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usually 1 of the main fundamental teachings at
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all, Krishna. Do tend to share. And so
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he started to give me a definition of
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what he thought the Trinity was.
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And I allowed him to give, I think
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3
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bad
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definitions
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before I finally had to jump in and
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correct him and say, it's clear you really
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don't know what Christians believe regarding the Trinity.
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And I think that's true for many latter
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day saints. They hear these stereotypes
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and they get these bad analog like, well,
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the 1 you just read from Joseph Smith.
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And they conclude that that's what Christians believe?
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And, of course, it does sound silly the
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way they describe it. But why isn't it
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we believe this? It's because we are trying
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to harmon all of the verses that describe
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God and we want to make sense.
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Based on what scripture actually says,
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not how you as an individual may comprehend
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it, because I don't know where you are
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when it comes to your biblical knowledge.
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And sometimes we have Latter saints doing exactly
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that. Oh, that's just too hard to believe.
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I don't wanna believe it don't do that.
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Go back and see what does the scriptures
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actually tell us about God.
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Stick to it. I think that's what the
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early church fathers
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were doing when it comes to the Bible.
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They were wanting to know what the Bible
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taught. And how do we fit the fact
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that the father son and holy spirit are
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all described as God, but yet at the
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same time, it emphasizes very strongly that there
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only exists 1 God. I think you've given
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a great example, Bill, and I hope the
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audience has understood your tactic here because you
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allowed him to give 3 bad definitions. Of
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what the Trinity is. I think we can
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do that by asking questions. You asked the
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question, what do you think I as a
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Christian believe when I say Trinity. What do
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you think I believe as the the grace
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of God. And and other issues like that.
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I think sometimes you'll find real fast,
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that there's just str man arguments that that's
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not really what we believe. Could I show
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you what we believe in a conversation on
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the street or with your friends or neighbors
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or even family members. I think it's a
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very polite way to go and say that's
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not what we believe. And what Joseph smith
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is saying here is not what Christianity teaches
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about the Trinity. I... I'm often reminded of
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an approach that Aaron S who works with
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us at Mr. An approach that he uses?
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He'll ask the question something like this. Have
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you ever had an evangelical
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explain to you what we believe regarding, let's
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say, the Trinity or grace.
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You asked the question,
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they'll oftentimes, you know what the answer is,
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No.
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And that is a shame on us. Really,
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when you think about it, we should be
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talking about these things with our L mds
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acquaintances,
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And yet when they open the door and
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they'll say, yeah, I'd like to hear what
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you have to say. Gives you a perfect
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opportunity to talk to them about what we
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believe and give them our perspective.
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Down H Oaks is the first counselor of
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the first presidency. And in 19 95, he
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gave a general conference talk that's recorded. In
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the Inside magazine of May 19 95,
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and it's titled apostasy and restoration, he said
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in common with the rest of Christianity,
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we believe in a God head of father
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son and Holy ghost. However, we testify that
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these 3 members of the God head, are
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3 separate and distinct beings. We also testify
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that God the father is not just a
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spirit, but is a glorified person with a
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tangible body.
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As is his resurrected son, Jesus Christ.
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And so Bill, the the idea here is
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he's admitting that they're tri. And you... And
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you mentioned earlier, d to 6 4, that's
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not mono. If you think these are 3
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separate gods. And the idea that he's not
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a spirit as John 04:24
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says he is, but a glorified person with
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the tangible body. Well, as we were talking
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about earlier this week. It's going back to
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Joseph Smith and doctrine and Covenants section 01:30
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verse 22, which says that. This is not
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what biblical christianity believes.
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Del h oaks says on page 84 of
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that same edition, we maintain that the concepts
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identified by such non script terms, As the
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incomprehensible
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mystery of God and the mystery of the
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holy Trinity are attributable to the ideas of
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Greek philosophy.
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These philosophical concepts transform Christianity in the first
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few centuries following the death of the apostles.
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The third I have with that attributing it
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to Greek philosophy is where are we getting
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these ideas?
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I'm gonna go back to what I said
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earlier.
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We get these ideas from what scripture actually
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teaches us. This idea of throwing in Greek
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philosophy. I I think is is a red
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herring.
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We get this from the fact that the
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bible tells us, the father is God, Jesus
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is God. The holy spirit is God, but
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yet the bible claims there is only 1
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God.
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We have to come up with something that
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makes some sense of all that. We cannot
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go in the direction of tri
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because that violates
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all the many verses in the bible that
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make it very clear. There's only 1 God.
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At least what we're trying to do is
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harmon
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what we have before us in the text
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and try to make sense of this, do
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we have to comprehend this 100 percent as
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finite and full human beings. No. We have
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no responsibility
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like that, but we do have a responsibility
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to honor the text and as it is
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given, and that is something that men like
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you just quoted don't do.
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I think we have the ability to say
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yes, I do not grasp the essence of
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who god is. I can't fully explain to
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you using examples,
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illustrations and support the idea of the trinity,
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but I believe it's true because it's revealed
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god's work. But let me ask you Latter
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day, Saint. Are you able to help me
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understand where the first God came from. Or
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can you tell me a little bit about
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God's god and and right away, they're gonna
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back off and they say, well, I don't
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quite get that. Oh, okay. But you believe
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that to be true. You believe that God
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has a body of flesh and bones and
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you lived somewhere in a previous world. You
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may not be able to tell me every
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nuance about that, but because your leaders have
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taught this, you do believe it to be
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true. I think you nailed it right there,
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Eric, because while they are saying I can't
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comprehend this. We can't comprehend their view, and
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they can't explain their view either, And I
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think the point you brought out is what
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God started it all.
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Because in mormon, they don't have a primary
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cause. They have this infinite regression of Gods,
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which by the way, the bible
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never speaks of this. It never speaks of
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an infinite regression of Gods that God was
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once a man who's the Au ring of
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a god who was once a man going
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back into eternity past. It never talks about
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this. But yet, sadly so many. Sincere latter
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day saints would rather latch on to what
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they've been told in their church
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rather than what the Bible reveals. James White
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says in his book the forgotten Trinity it's
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an excellent book. We recommend it. He says
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on page 29. Christians believe in that Trinity
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not because the term itself is given in
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some creed light form in the text of
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scripture. Instead they believe in the Trinity because
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the bible, Trinity taken in its completeness
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accepted as a self consistent revelation of God
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teaches that there is 1 being of God
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that is shared fully by 3 divine persons,
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the father, the son and the holy spirit.
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And it's not like the
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church hasn't been very critical of what Christians
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believe. You've already given a few examples there
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Eric, but let me end the show with
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a, quote, from Mormon an apostle, Jeffrey R
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holland. This was in a talk that he
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gave called the 1 true God and Jesus
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Christ whom he has sent. This was in...
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The ensign November 2007,
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page 40. Our first and foremost article of
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faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of
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Latter day saints is, quote, we believe in
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God the eternal father and in his son
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Jesus Christ and in the holy ghost, and,
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quote, of We believe these 3 divine persons
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cons a single god head are united in
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purpose in manner in testimony
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in mission. We believe them to be filled
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with the same godly sense of mercy and
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love, justice and grace,
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patience forgiveness and redemption. I think it is
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accurate to say we believe they are 1
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in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable.
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Except
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believing them to be 3 persons combined in
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1 substance.
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A tri
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notion never set forth in the scriptures
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because it is not true and, quote. That's
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how Geoffrey Holland describes it. A tri
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notion never set forth in the scriptures Let
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me just say that's nonsense.
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That's exactly where we get this notion is
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from the scriptures. We don't get tri
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from the scriptures. We don't get tri
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from Christian history.
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All of Christian church history never do we
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see Christians believing this.
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Tomorrow will continue looking at this topic of
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the Trinity.
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Thank you for listening. If you would like
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00:13:09,489 --> 00:13:13,238
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and as we look at another viewpoint on
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mormon from a biblical perspective.
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Viewpoint on mormon,
2
00:00:07,791 --> 00:00:09,884
the program that examine the teachings of the
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00:00:09,884 --> 00:00:12,044
church of Jesus Christ of Light day saints
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00:00:12,044 --> 00:00:13,405
from a biblical perspective.
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Viewpoint on mormon is sponsored by roman Research
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00:00:16,845 --> 00:00:20,375
Ministry since 19 said 9. Mormon research ministry
7
00:00:20,375 --> 00:00:22,290
has been dedicated to equip the body of
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00:00:22,450 --> 00:00:25,004
Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in
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00:00:25,004 --> 00:00:27,574
a manner that expresses gentleness, v and respect.
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00:00:27,975 --> 00:00:30,155
And now your host for today's
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00:00:30,535 --> 00:00:31,755
viewpoint on mormon.
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What have L leaders said? About the doctrine
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of the Trinity. Welcome to this edition of
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viewpoint on Mormon. I'm your host Bill Mc
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mccabe, Founder and director of Mormon Research.
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And with me today is Eric Johnson, my
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colleague at r.
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On Monday, we began a series where we're
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going through some of the major differences that
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separate.
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Christianity from the teachings of the Church of
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Jesus Christ of Latter day saints. Many times
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when you talk to a Latter day saint,
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they want to get you the impression that
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we're really pretty much on the same page
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except for some minor differences.
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That's not really true. If and we hope
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this series will bring that out to you.
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We've already looked at what the Latter day
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saints are taught regarding what they believe to
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be. Scripture, and now we're going to be
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looking at the Trinity.
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Mormon
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denies the biblical doctrine of the Trinity,
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And instead, it promotes a quote unquote god
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head that is comprised of 3 gods. Let
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me give you a... Statement from Joseph Smith,
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the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ
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of Latter day saints. He said and this
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can be found in the teachings of the
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prophet Joseph Smith, page 370.
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I have always declared God to be a
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distinct persona.
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Jesus Christ a separate and distinct persona from
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God the father, and the holy ghost, a
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distinct persona or spirit,
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and these 3 constitute
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3 distinct
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and 3
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gods.
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Joseph Smith is making it very clear, though
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he wants to believe that the father son
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and Holy ghost or holy spirit.
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Are
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described as being God. He wants to see
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them as 3 gods, which, of course, biblical,
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you would have a difficulty doing that because
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especially when we look back at Dud 6
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4, hero israel, the Lord our God, the
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Lord is 1, the Jews were known, for
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believing in only 1 God, and sometimes that
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took a lot of criticism from a lot
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of the pagan countries that surrounded them who
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believed in a multi simplicity of gods. But
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there's been other comments made by various L
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leaders that certainly
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hold the Trinity in division. Well, let me
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give you Joseph Smith again because he says
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in teachings of the profit, Joseph Smith page
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3 72, just 2 pages After the quote,
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you just gave, he said many men say
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there is 1 God, the father, the son
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and the Holy Ghost are only 1 God.
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I say that is a strange God anyhow.
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3 and 1, and 1 and 3. It
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is a curious
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organization. All are to be crammed into 1
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God according to sec.
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It would make the biggest God in all
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the world, he would be a wonderfully big
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God. He would be a giant or a
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monster.
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Don't you love Bill the straw man arguments
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that come because he's taken a sacred doctrine
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and he's turned it into some thing that's
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totally ridiculous. And yet, he doesn't understand what
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the Trinity is to be able to make
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such a comment. Now it's interesting you say
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that, Eric, because I remembered this, this conversation
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I had with 1 man out on the
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streets of man tied during the Mormon Miracle
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pageant years ago.
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He asked me. Oh, are you 1 of
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those Christians that believe in the Trinity, and
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I says, well, of course, because that is
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usually 1 of the main fundamental teachings at
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all, Krishna. Do tend to share. And so
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he started to give me a definition of
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what he thought the Trinity was.
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And I allowed him to give, I think
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3
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bad
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definitions
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before I finally had to jump in and
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correct him and say, it's clear you really
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don't know what Christians believe regarding the Trinity.
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And I think that's true for many latter
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day saints. They hear these stereotypes
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and they get these bad analog like, well,
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the 1 you just read from Joseph Smith.
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And they conclude that that's what Christians believe?
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And, of course, it does sound silly the
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way they describe it. But why isn't it
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we believe this? It's because we are trying
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to harmon all of the verses that describe
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God and we want to make sense.
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Based on what scripture actually says,
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not how you as an individual may comprehend
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it, because I don't know where you are
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when it comes to your biblical knowledge.
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And sometimes we have Latter saints doing exactly
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that. Oh, that's just too hard to believe.
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I don't wanna believe it don't do that.
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Go back and see what does the scriptures
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actually tell us about God.
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Stick to it. I think that's what the
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early church fathers
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were doing when it comes to the Bible.
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They were wanting to know what the Bible
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taught. And how do we fit the fact
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that the father son and holy spirit are
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all described as God, but yet at the
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same time, it emphasizes very strongly that there
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only exists 1 God. I think you've given
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a great example, Bill, and I hope the
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audience has understood your tactic here because you
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allowed him to give 3 bad definitions. Of
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what the Trinity is. I think we can
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do that by asking questions. You asked the
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question, what do you think I as a
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Christian believe when I say Trinity. What do
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you think I believe as the the grace
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of God. And and other issues like that.
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I think sometimes you'll find real fast,
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that there's just str man arguments that that's
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not really what we believe. Could I show
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you what we believe in a conversation on
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the street or with your friends or neighbors
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or even family members. I think it's a
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very polite way to go and say that's
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not what we believe. And what Joseph smith
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is saying here is not what Christianity teaches
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about the Trinity. I... I'm often reminded of
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an approach that Aaron S who works with
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us at Mr. An approach that he uses?
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He'll ask the question something like this. Have
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you ever had an evangelical
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explain to you what we believe regarding, let's
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say, the Trinity or grace.
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You asked the question,
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they'll oftentimes, you know what the answer is,
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No.
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And that is a shame on us. Really,
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when you think about it, we should be
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talking about these things with our L mds
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acquaintances,
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And yet when they open the door and
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they'll say, yeah, I'd like to hear what
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you have to say. Gives you a perfect
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opportunity to talk to them about what we
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believe and give them our perspective.
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Down H Oaks is the first counselor of
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the first presidency. And in 19 95, he
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gave a general conference talk that's recorded. In
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the Inside magazine of May 19 95,
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and it's titled apostasy and restoration, he said
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in common with the rest of Christianity,
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we believe in a God head of father
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son and Holy ghost. However, we testify that
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these 3 members of the God head, are
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3 separate and distinct beings. We also testify
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that God the father is not just a
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spirit, but is a glorified person with a
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tangible body.
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As is his resurrected son, Jesus Christ.
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And so Bill, the the idea here is
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he's admitting that they're tri. And you... And
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you mentioned earlier, d to 6 4, that's
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not mono. If you think these are 3
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separate gods. And the idea that he's not
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a spirit as John 04:24
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says he is, but a glorified person with
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the tangible body. Well, as we were talking
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about earlier this week. It's going back to
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Joseph Smith and doctrine and Covenants section 01:30
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verse 22, which says that. This is not
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what biblical christianity believes.
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Del h oaks says on page 84 of
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that same edition, we maintain that the concepts
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identified by such non script terms, As the
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incomprehensible
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mystery of God and the mystery of the
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holy Trinity are attributable to the ideas of
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Greek philosophy.
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These philosophical concepts transform Christianity in the first
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few centuries following the death of the apostles.
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The third I have with that attributing it
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to Greek philosophy is where are we getting
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these ideas?
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I'm gonna go back to what I said
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earlier.
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We get these ideas from what scripture actually
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teaches us. This idea of throwing in Greek
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philosophy. I I think is is a red
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herring.
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We get this from the fact that the
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bible tells us, the father is God, Jesus
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is God. The holy spirit is God, but
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yet the bible claims there is only 1
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God.
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We have to come up with something that
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makes some sense of all that. We cannot
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go in the direction of tri
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because that violates
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all the many verses in the bible that
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make it very clear. There's only 1 God.
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At least what we're trying to do is
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harmon
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what we have before us in the text
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and try to make sense of this, do
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we have to comprehend this 100 percent as
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finite and full human beings. No. We have
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no responsibility
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like that, but we do have a responsibility
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to honor the text and as it is
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given, and that is something that men like
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you just quoted don't do.
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I think we have the ability to say
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yes, I do not grasp the essence of
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who god is. I can't fully explain to
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you using examples,
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illustrations and support the idea of the trinity,
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but I believe it's true because it's revealed
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god's work. But let me ask you Latter
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day, Saint. Are you able to help me
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understand where the first God came from. Or
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can you tell me a little bit about
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God's god and and right away, they're gonna
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back off and they say, well, I don't
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quite get that. Oh, okay. But you believe
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that to be true. You believe that God
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has a body of flesh and bones and
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you lived somewhere in a previous world. You
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may not be able to tell me every
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nuance about that, but because your leaders have
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taught this, you do believe it to be
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true. I think you nailed it right there,
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Eric, because while they are saying I can't
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comprehend this. We can't comprehend their view, and
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they can't explain their view either, And I
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think the point you brought out is what
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God started it all.
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Because in mormon, they don't have a primary
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cause. They have this infinite regression of Gods,
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which by the way, the bible
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never speaks of this. It never speaks of
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an infinite regression of Gods that God was
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once a man who's the Au ring of
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a god who was once a man going
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back into eternity past. It never talks about
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this. But yet, sadly so many. Sincere latter
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day saints would rather latch on to what
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they've been told in their church
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rather than what the Bible reveals. James White
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says in his book the forgotten Trinity it's
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an excellent book. We recommend it. He says
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on page 29. Christians believe in that Trinity
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not because the term itself is given in
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some creed light form in the text of
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scripture. Instead they believe in the Trinity because
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the bible, Trinity taken in its completeness
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accepted as a self consistent revelation of God
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teaches that there is 1 being of God
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that is shared fully by 3 divine persons,
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the father, the son and the holy spirit.
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And it's not like the
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church hasn't been very critical of what Christians
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believe. You've already given a few examples there
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Eric, but let me end the show with
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a, quote, from Mormon an apostle, Jeffrey R
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holland. This was in a talk that he
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gave called the 1 true God and Jesus
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Christ whom he has sent. This was in...
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The ensign November 2007,
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page 40. Our first and foremost article of
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faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of
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Latter day saints is, quote, we believe in
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God the eternal father and in his son
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Jesus Christ and in the holy ghost, and,
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quote, of We believe these 3 divine persons
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cons a single god head are united in
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purpose in manner in testimony
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in mission. We believe them to be filled
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with the same godly sense of mercy and
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love, justice and grace,
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patience forgiveness and redemption. I think it is
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accurate to say we believe they are 1
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in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable.
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Except
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believing them to be 3 persons combined in
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1 substance.
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A tri
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notion never set forth in the scriptures
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because it is not true and, quote. That's
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how Geoffrey Holland describes it. A tri
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notion never set forth in the scriptures Let
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me just say that's nonsense.
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That's exactly where we get this notion is
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from the scriptures. We don't get tri
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from the scriptures. We don't get tri
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from Christian history.
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All of Christian church history never do we
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see Christians believing this.
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Tomorrow will continue looking at this topic of
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the Trinity.
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Thank you for listening. If you would like
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you to visit our website at WWW
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researched. We hope you will join us again
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and as we look at another viewpoint on
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mormon from a biblical perspective.
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