Why Staying Felt Riskier Than Starting Over ft. David Pourquery

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My parents are like, what are you doing?
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You're being a you have a good job, I stick stick with it.
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Like I knew in my head, like never gonna be like it's gonna be here in a few years.
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There weren't unfortunately any difference.
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But if anything, the people around me were telling me to do the opposite, which made it even harder.
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But I think I always just had a lot of confidence in myself, regardless of what it could, I would do it.
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Today I'm here with David Perqueri, who is the founder and CEO of Groas.
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He left the world of private equity to build a fully bootstrapped AI company designed to challenge the traditional agency model.
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Thanks so much for being here today with us, David.
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Thank you, uh Jana.
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It's uh it's a pleasure to be here.
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Well, I'd love to hear what you know, like where you were at when you were trying to decide should I leave private equity to start my own company?
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Yeah, a good question.
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Short answer is hating hating life in private equity.
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Uh hating my life.
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Now look, I was uh 25.
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So I'm 26, now but 25 when I when I decided to jump off.
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I'd gotten into private equity quite young, actually, relative to probably others.
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Uh I broke in when I was, I think, twenty one, twenty-two.
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So I'd spent a good few years.
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Uh and look, to be honest, when I initially made that jump into private equity shortly after graduating university, I did think I would be there, right, for a good amount of time, right?
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Because comp gets better as you progress.
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Everything gets better, right?
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Well, and it's really a dream job, isn't it?
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For for a lot of people who pursue that investment side, they go work for an investment bank with hopes of getting hired in private equity.
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Correct.
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Yeah, that's exactly right.
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It is, it is normally.
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But I I actually did bypass the investment bank side.
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So like man, which is and I got in even earlier, right?
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So like all good stuff, great.
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And again, my my plan initially was to stay there, right?
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And build a career uh around that.
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And then I think probably I I'd I was at two different funds, one smaller one here in the UK, and then one based in both the US and the UK, much, much bigger, 8 billion under management.
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I think it was a year in at this new fund that I realized that I'd want to leave sooner than later.
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In what respect to do what exactly wasn't super clear, but I knew basically one year in, like, I can't see myself here in whatever.
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And why why was that?
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It's tough.
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You know, there's a lot of reasons.
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I think one thing that might resonate with a lot of people listening is when you look at your peers, uh, you know, even your bosses, whatever, you think to yourself, is that really me?
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Like, do I align with with how these people are?
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Like, can I can I actually see that happening?
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And for me it was a resounding no.
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It was definitely a resounding no.
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I I felt like there was no conceivable way I could still be here in like three as bad as that sounds, or I don't know, everyone's different.
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But I just thought given my pretty much some of my personality traits, that I would wanna wanna get out and do something more for myself.
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So at that time you were already, it wasn't a matter of thinking of oh, maybe I could go work for another fund or pivot into some some other side of investing.
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It was really I wanna be working for myself.
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Yeah.
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Uh and but also like the way you do that is also different, right?
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Typically when people will start a company, they want to go raise money.
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But then if you do that, you are again, once again, working for investors.
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Like whether you like it or not, I don't care.
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Like you now have people to respond to.
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So I knew that if I was to leave, uh were to leave, it would have to be really on my own terms, like with a company I owe 100% of, with time freedom, with location freedom.
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Um and that's even more challenging, right?
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Because actually, arguably today raising money, if you have a decent, like decently credential background, it's quite easy.
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Like we get approached by VCs all of the time.
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But the the hard of it was figuring out how to make this profitable from day one.
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And that was that's what took a little bit longer to figure out.
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And when you had this inkling of maybe working for yourself, did you have other influencers in your life?
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Had you seen it done?
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I mean, how did you even come across that idea?
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Because for a lot of people, working for themselves is not the first thing that comes to their mind.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Um, that's a good point.
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Look, the answer is there was really no one, unfortunately, like in my immediate family who had really done entrepreneurship at all.
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Um, you know, and actually I remember when I was like just starting to mess around with like other stuff on the side when I was in private equity, I was doing stuff with e-comm, etc.
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etc.
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You know, my parents were like, What are you doing?
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You're being a buffoon.
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It's like, you know, you you have a good job, like stick stick with it.
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But like I knew in my head, like it just it was it was never gonna be able to work.
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Like I was like, this is not uh I just can't be here in a few years.
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So sure, there weren't unfortunately any influences.
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And if anything, the people around me were telling me to do the opposite of what I wanted to do, which made it even harder.
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But I think I always just had a lot of confidence in myself that regardless of what occurred, I would figure it out somewhere.
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Yeah, all the well-meaning people who think they know better than you do for for what's good for your life.
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Correct.
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I know my mom was very concerned for me about going out on my own.
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Like, why would you take that type of risk?
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Correct.
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Well, actually, the biggest risk is staying.
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That's just my that's my opinion.
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If you actually look at the objective, the bigger risk is is not doing anything.
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So like for me it was easy, it's just I need to need to figure out how to how to action that properly.
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Like, what vehicle can I use to even get out of this?
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Like, context, right?
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I'm like, okay, so I'm working private equity, working really hard, it's a very demanding job, of course, especially as a junior.
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How do I even have time to figure out like how to build a real business outside of this?
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So I actually started off doing e-commerce, okay?
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Because e-comm doesn't require like necessarily day-to-day management.
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I could set stuff up in the evenings and weekends and have no life, um and then like get sales in the day.
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So like I was running up dropshipping stores to like five figure days, all good, all good.
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The problem is the margins in e-com, especially in dropshipping in 2020, 25, 2026, which is not good enough.
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They're not good enough to leave a full-time role in private equity.
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Obviously not.
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So then that's kind of when slowly I was spending a lot of money on Google Ads, getting to know all this sort of stuff.
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That's when like the inklings, the early inklings of grass started to form, and basically grass ended up being the vehicle I could I could leave private equity with.
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But yeah, that's that's a bit of a bit of background.
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It's like I didn't just land on grass from day one.
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There was a lot of a lot of testing for like a year.
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Litering.
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Yeah, let's let's talk about that.
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So you you did drop shipping, and you how did you come across that?
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Because I know that was back in the day, that was a big thing for uh Gary V and you know, talking about that.
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Like let's start how you even thought, yeah, let's let's go test the market a little bit and see what else I might be able to do.
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Oh yeah, dropshipping has gotten harder and harder.
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It's like it's brutal.
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Like I I it's I do have friends who do make a living off it, but you need to be doing very, very big volumes because otherwise the margins are just too tough.
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But dropshipping g gives you a really good, I think, base in online business, in my opinion.
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Because it touches on so many different things, right?
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Marketing, building a landing page, crafting a brand, running ads, like financial, like clicking up some financials.
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Like it touches on so many different things that are involved in whatever like online business model you want to do after.
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So I thought like this would be a good base anyway.
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And on top of the fact that I was just super time constrained, right, at the time.
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So like I couldn't just set up a software company with customers I had to speak to you during the day because I was in meetings in an office like all day.
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So yeah, e-commerce was basically that that vehicle for me.
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And it was really cool, right?
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Like I'd be in meetings and I'd just see like crazy Shopify notifications.
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I felt like I felt like Jeff Bezos at the time.
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But yeah, like that was uh spent a year like learning the ropes and then doing good things in e-commerce.
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And that's where where you stumbled upon Google ads.
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And what were your um observations in that space then?
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Yeah, good question.
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So look, uh I was play I was investing and spending a lot of money on all the different ad platforms, uh TikTok, Twitter, even a little bit, but Google Ads.
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Google Ads was like probably my my number one uh activity.
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It's really complicated, right?
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It's really complicated, it has a lot has a lot of things wrong with it, I think, to be honest, compared to the other platforms.
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Uh, there's a lot more going on and a lot more areas you can go wrong.
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So I'd been programming since I was 13, 14, self-taught program since I was quite young, study computer science university.
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So I started to think about is there anything we could build on top of Google Ads to make it better, to like basically give you a better campaign performance.
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So GrowAs started off basically as a very simple, like a SAS recommendations tool, very low entry ticket sort of pricing.
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Again, the first feature I would ever wanted to build for Grass was dynamic landing pages.
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Basically, adapt when someone clicks on your ad, what they see on the page is adapted to what they were searching for.
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So you can have one Grass will constantly change that.
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So if someone was searching for an armhair trimmer, we show them an armhair trim page.
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If we were searching for leg hair trimmer, leg hair trim page.
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Like that was like V1 of GRASS, that basic, basic feature.
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It obviously evolved into a lot more than that.
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Uh but yeah, look, it came from basically my own needs, like figuring out like there's a lot here that's wrong.
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Could we build something that's a little better?
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And uh during this time, were you was the company self-funding, or were you having to take your paycheck and and fund it as well?
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Good question.
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So the for the first month or so, it was fully self-funded from my own pocket.
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But then we became profitable really quickly from day one.
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And and the reason is uh so like obviously now by the way, I leave private equity, just FYI, just for context, with not a business.
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Like grass was not a bit, grass was like nothing, it was like a barely an MVP.
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We had a few paying customers, it was like super basic stuff.
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But then when I left, I'm like, okay, I literally my back is against the wall.
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This has to work.
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Um which meant I became super obsessive with a customer.
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I had people paying us like$99 a month with my WhatsApp photoing me at 2 a.m.
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and I'd pick up to help them out.
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Um and when you do that, people stick with you because you're doing a good job for them.
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Um so short answer is like early on we found profitability, limited, but everything back then was going right back into building the product, building the product, building the product.
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So let's let's talk about I guess taking a step back then before you made, you know, stepped away from private equity or like what was at stake?
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Like when you were saying, okay, I feel like I should be working on my own, I have this idea, um, but I'm here at a job.
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So what was at stake for you?
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I think if you leave, it's hard to come back.
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And it depends how you leave.
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But I mean, if you leave, especially probably on the circumstances I did, which was a bit out of the blue, um, you're not gonna get a job back.
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It's unlikely.
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It's unlikely.
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Because it's just not, it's normally not taken well.
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If you leave, it's normally to go to a competitor, but if you leave and just exit the industry to then come back, it's very unlikely that happens.
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Um, so I guess that really was the main thing at the time.
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Is that like what will I what will I do if if grass doesn't work out?
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And I didn't have an answer.
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There was no answer, there was no backup.
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And so were you confident that you were gonna be able to replace your salary that quickly?
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Like, I mean, so private equity tends to have pretty decent salaries and high bonus structures.
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So, like, how much are we walking away from in a year?
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A lot, a lot.
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Um, especially for a 25-year-old kid.
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But again, I like I figure like it's just no it wasn't even about the money though.
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So that that it also another thing is like at the time, obviously now it's great.
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I'm doing far, far, far better in like less than a year like than I would have ever done in private equipment.
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So that's great, good stuff.
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But I also don't care about that at the same time.
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That was never my incentive.
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My incentive was I want to be in control of my own time, build something I care about, build a team, work with people I enjoy, that sort of thing.
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There was much more of that, and like I could do that from a shack in the Philippines, living on ten dollars a day.
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I could like that's that's feasible, and I I would have no problem living like that.
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Um and I did for a little bit actually at the very, very start.
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So I mean, yeah, uh looking back, it wasn't really a risk at all.
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And when you were, you know, moving towards this decision, what was there anything that started making it feel more urgent?
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Yeah, because we start even though it was like this very basic V1 of a product, it was like you know, super trash compared to what we're at now, there were people with very significant amounts of Google Ad Spend like putting their stuff through us.
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I was like, whoa, okay, like we're not making much money now, but like this is this is a signal.
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Like these are people who really know what they're doing and they're trusting us already with like this very basic V1 of a thing.
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Um and I was like, yeah, if if I don't give this my full attention now, then it it might not ever work.
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So I just had to make the call.
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To just just leave and rip the band-aid off and and go go all out.
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So do you feel like you spent much time analyzing?
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Uh, should I change, you know, should I go, you know, stay with private equity?
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Should I change funds or should I go out on my own?
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Like, did you did you really like go, oh, what's my cost-benefit analysis and what's my you know, any of that?
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Short answer is unfortunately not.
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I knew I had to go, it was a question of when.
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So it was more like a timing thing, like when can I actually make this jump?
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Uh and when we decide to have a tiny bit of traction, I was like, this is enough.
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Uh and even if it goes to zero, I would like figure something else out somehow.
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Like without a job with very limited funds, I would have to figure something else out.
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I've never, I mean, there are a lot of good like decision-making frameworks out there that exist.
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I've heard of a few.
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I've sometimes played around with a few in the past, writing stuff down.
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Like I think Reed Hoffman has a has a really good one.
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I've personally found that the best decisions generally come from the gut.
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And so if you know yourself well, if you have good intuition generally, I think you should follow that.
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Well, that kind of leads into my next question because part of part of your gut is based on your history and your competence and what you know.
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And for maybe people who aren't maybe fully familiar with private equity, there's a couple angles to private equity.
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There's the analyzing what company should we buy?
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Does it make sense to invest in a company?
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Does they have the my right metrics?
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And then there's the operations of the company once it's purchased to get it up to the point where it's worth selling, and then you make that's where you make your big money in private equity.
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So you've probably looked at tons of companies.
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Did you feel like that helped you at all with your idea and and where you thought the opportunity lied?
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Question.
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Yeah, look, uh, for context as well.
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I before working private equity, I also worked in venture capital.
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Like I know both, I know both worlds, and they're very, very different worlds.
00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:15.200
Also, working in VC also made me like never want to raise VC, by the way, because I saw what went on.
00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:17.039
Um they're very different worlds.
00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:19.600
So yeah, and look, you can analyze grass from two perspectives.
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:24.960
Like, did I believe in VC, like the number one thing you look at, the only thing you can really look at is the founding team.
00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:25.919
Do you trust them?
00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:27.200
Did I trust in myself?
00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:27.759
Yes.
00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:30.240
Probably too arrogantly at the start, but I just did.
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:35.919
Then like P side is obviously a founding team does matter, but then you're like much, much more complicated problem.
00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:36.720
There's so much more going on.
00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:39.600
These are established businesses that you're buying, a lot more approach for complexity.
00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:43.200
You're taking on like you're taking on the day-to-day management unlike in VC where you take a small stake.
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.720
So analysing things in P is very different to how you would in B in in BC.
00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:56.480
What however like what working in P did though for me, to be to be super frank, you know, you meet with all these entrepreneurs who've built these massive businesses and they're looking to sell whatever, whatever.
00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:59.200
And I've and I've met with plenty, plenty working at it.
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:06.639
And like I just remember thinking at the time, like and I this might sound very arrogant, like I don't think this person is more special than me.
00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:07.919
I don't think they have something.
00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:09.200
I I just don't believe that they do.
00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:10.080
I think you know what I mean.
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:27.200
Um so that kind of gave me like a deep, you know, like real confidence, inner confidence that regardless of what might occur, I would figure out a way because I've met people, you know, who are worth nine figures, ten figures, whatever it is, and and and just personally got the instinct that they weren't uh above.
00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:28.320
That that was just my opinion.
00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:33.600
Um can you pinpoint when you made I mean it sounds like it was a two-step decision.
00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:41.600
It was one, I don't want to work in private equity and I want to start my own company, and then a sub-decision of when to finally leave.
00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.759
Can you pinpoint those two decisions to like one moment?
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:49.120
Yes, both actually have their like their respective moments.
00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:50.399
And I have to be careful what I say.
00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:53.360
For the for the first one, uh when did I know I like I had to leave?
00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:54.159
It was a year in.
00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:56.000
Uh something had occurred.
00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:01.679
I'll try obfuscate the details, but I'd actually gone out taking a lot of initiative to do something, right?
00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:04.960
And something that would like massively help just a fund, we'll say generally.
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.200
I've spent a lot of time on it, a lot of initiative, etc.
00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:07.600
etc.
00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:11.200
And which logically is just very logical.
00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:14.320
It's uh competitors were doing it, we weren't doing it.
00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:15.919
So I went out and did a bunch of work.
00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:24.240
And then it got received so poorly, and I actually ended up having like people angry at me for doing something that would would help them.
00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:27.039
And I was like, in that moment, obviously it's a it's a big fund, etc.
00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:34.639
But in that moment I thought, I don't know if like I am suited or something like this, because I'm naturally someone who's gonna take initiative, gonna want to take risk, gonna want to take action.
00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:39.840
Um, and you know, when you have like five different layers of bureaucracy, I mentally will start to struggle.
00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:41.360
I'm like, this just this just doesn't make sense.
00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.200
It's all polit too much politics, too much nonsense, or I don't have the brain for this.
00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:46.639
I've brained for other things, but not for this.
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:47.440
I suck at that.
00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:48.399
I was like, okay.
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:50.559
So I knew that at that moment, okay, that's one thing.
00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.159
And then when exactly to jump ship?
00:15:52.240 --> 00:16:04.080
Yeah, it's like I said, when uh when we started to get traction with serious spenders, not like yeah, excuse my language, like buffoons who didn't know much about it, but like people who did Googalize as a career, made their money off it, and who are like, Whoa, okay, you guys are onto something special here.
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:04.799
That's what we think.
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:06.799
And when I heard that, I'm like, maybe we are.
00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:08.799
Until like at that point, it was just an easy jump.
00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:12.159
And how did you find I mean, how did the that happen?
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:16.399
How did you find out that you were onto something by these other people?
00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:18.240
Like, were you in communities?
00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:19.200
Were you meeting them?
00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:21.279
Like, how how were you hearing this feedback?
00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:22.879
I would, like I said, WhatsApp.
00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:25.679
I'd have everybody on my WhatsApp 24-7.
00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:30.320
Like being super responsive, being super helpful, you build a relationship with these people.
00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:33.440
Um obviously now we're much bigger scale.
00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:40.000
I'm personally not involved in like the day-to-day, but like at the time, yeah, having those direct relationships was super helpful.
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:45.360
But I mean, feedback from your it sounded like maybe competitors or other people who had done something similar.
00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:46.799
How are you getting that type of feedback?
00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:47.600
No, sorry, yeah.
00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:51.679
Maybe this is feedback from customers, like very early who are big spenders, who know what they're doing.
00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.799
They're like, okay, well, I think this is you guys were onto something.
00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:56.159
And I was like, maybe we are.
00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:02.000
I didn't really believe it at the time, but them saying it, and I like I respected them a lot, gave me gave me extra confidence.
00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:13.200
And where were you at, I guess, from a revenue point when you were deciding, or like kind of what like what metrics were you using that it's like, oh, it's safe enough to jump in and put my all in it.
00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:17.759
Yeah, so our revenue was was very small at this time because we weren't we hadn't figured out a good pricing model.
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:19.839
So we were charging way too little for what we were doing.
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:25.519
So revenue-wise, it was nowhere near, like nowhere near comparable to what I was making private equity.
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.480
Not even on top of that, had expenses of continuing trying to build it.
00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:34.640
Uh, but it was more just attraction of seeing like big amounts of spend coming to us and the compliments and this and that.
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:38.720
And I'm like, okay, like uh we will figure it out one way or another because these people trust us.
00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:51.279
So, you know, it sounded like there were a few things at play, you know, you understood who you were, and so realized that you needed to be an environment maybe where you had more control between around outcomes, right?
00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:52.960
And control over your destiny.
00:17:53.200 --> 00:18:00.480
It sounded like you had a lot of, you know, you did a lot of testing and got a lot of good signals about, hey, I'm on the right track.
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:11.200
But what would you say if you had to boil this down to, well, this is why I made the decision to leave high-paying private equity to go into um a startup?
00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:14.000
Like what was like the founder's principle?
00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:19.759
Yeah, look, I think control, control of how I live and and run my life, to be to be super frank, right?
00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:26.880
When you're private equity, like you have to uh when any other like a lot of jobs, you have to ask, can I can I take a holiday?
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:27.519
Can I do this?
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:33.039
Obviously, my motivation is not all holidays, but it was more just control over my own time and my own destiny.
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:34.559
And also, like, that's one side.
00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:38.559
And the other side is thinking, I think there's like we could do something really cool here.
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:42.160
I forget like the financial upside, which to be honest, never really interested me.
00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:44.960
I just think there's an opportunity here to build something really cool.
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:46.880
So like that as well was very, very strong.
00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:57.279
And like, do you feel like this idea of I can control my own destiny is something that is a repeatable type of principle, or was it a moment in time?
00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:02.960
You know, because it that to me almost feels a little bit of a desire than a principle.
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:09.839
It's like that's the outcome I want, but that's not necessarily what maybe you used to make that decision.
00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:12.559
It's like I want this outcome, how can I get there?
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:16.319
How did what drove the I'm confident and how I can get there?
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:16.960
I don't know.
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:20.720
I think I I'd always been entrepreneur a little bit since I was young.
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:22.880
Um I'd done a lot of different things, right?
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:29.599
Like my first business was at 19, selling ethical hacking, cybersecurity courses when I was in university, which is quite funny.
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:34.079
And it was me showing up and teaching like teenagers who were like one year younger than me, all this stuff.
00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:36.160
So like that inkling was just always there.
00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:44.640
But to be honest, I had always thought like if I were to do that like for real, like not just some fun little side business, it would be later in my life, right?
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.400
Maybe in 30s, and and who knows in what format that would that would take place.
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:51.119
But yeah, I didn't expect it to probably occur occur so soon.
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.519
But that inkling had always been there since young.
00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:54.880
Why, I'm not too sure.
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.480
There is no one really in my immediate family who who's done anything entrepreneurial.
00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:00.960
If anything, they dissuaded against it from always.
00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:03.519
So yeah, I I'm not too sure why that's there.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:17.200
When you when you created the ethical hacking business, was it again an idea of like seeing a need and seeing a space and moving into that space?
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:18.799
Like how did that arise?
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:20.799
Yeah, because at the time there was nothing like it.
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:24.720
So at the time there were like there were these cybersecurity that so this is in London, by the way, for context.
00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:26.000
Where I lived and grew up.
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:33.440
There were like these coding courses existed, cybersecurity courses existed existed where they teach you like these principles of encryption and all this BS.
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:38.240
But there was no way actually showing you if you wanted to break into your neighbour's Wi-Fi, how could you actually do that?
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:39.279
Right.
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:41.279
So that's that's actually what I was teaching.
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:42.960
Uh obviously how to do it ethically, etc.
00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:43.359
etc.
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:46.880
But there was genuinely nothing on the market at the time as to how to do something like that.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:48.720
So that there was a big need.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.000
I felt like I had taught myself so much, why not impart that knowledge onto others?
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.960
And also the the summer before that, I had spent my whole summer doing door-to-door sales on a commission only basis.
00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:04.240
And that I think was a big eye-opener in terms of like what's what's possible and like you know, seeing the hustle that people had probably gave gave me some as well.
00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:07.359
Uh it's interesting the the door-to-door sales.
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:23.519
I like so many people I've spoken to talk about how not this podcast, just in general, but about how pivotal that was, uh an experience that was into their success, because it's so painful that you learned so much.
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:24.160
100%.
00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:24.960
100%.
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:25.519
Yeah.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:41.599
I'm I'm wondering uh, you know, because uh the reason I was asking about that story was to see if this that you might have this trend and what the trend sounds to be is maybe seeing um asymmetric opportunity early.
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:51.200
Like, I mean, as in in both times it feels like you moved into a space where there was not a lot of people in that space.
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:53.759
So you saw the opportunity and you filled it.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:54.400
Correct.
00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:54.880
Correct.
00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.759
Yeah, rather than trying to piggyback or copy or whatever, whatever, it was it's always been a case of.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.279
This is not being done, but I personally think I have an edge for one reason or another.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:04.400
Therefore, let me try and do it.
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:11.839
And you when you were moving through this and like let's say let's say it's like I'm gonna quit my job, or hey everybody, I just quit my job.
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:14.720
Do you think anybody would have said you had a blind spot?
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.759
Or you know, what was the feedback you were hearing?
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:18.799
You're kidding me.
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:24.160
Everybody, close friends, family, uh obviously my old job.
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:30.640
Uh I actually didn't go into detail like while I was leaving, but I heard like even now that they're still talking about it.
00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:32.640
So look, yeah, um, yeah, definitely.
00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:34.079
But I I think I I don't know why.
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:39.119
I just always had a very, very strong belief in myself that one way or another I would figure it out.
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:41.359
Uh and that's the only thing that's kept me going, to be honest.
00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:43.359
Stupid self-belief comes from someone.
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:49.519
And so did that that feedback and what you were hearing at the time, like did you have any doubt for a moment?
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:54.079
Like, even just a moment, it was like, oh shit, did I make a bad decision or no?
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:56.799
It's like whatever, you guys are all fools.
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:00.960
Honestly, occasionally there may have been some of that, only in the early stages.
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:02.960
Obviously, now like we're very far beyond that.
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:04.079
Very, very far beyond that.
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:05.920
But maybe in the early stages a little bit.
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:08.480
But even then I thought, okay, like, what's my alternative?
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:12.000
I I I physically couldn't go back to doing like a normal job.
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:23.519
Like physically, after you've tasted a little bit of like making money online, it's then or like actually making your own first dollars, whatever, like seriously, it's very hard to then go back and have somebody else tell you what to do all day.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:24.559
Very, very hard.
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:27.119
So I think I was like, I don't know what alternative I have.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:28.880
I generally don't know what I would do.
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:32.079
Um, I get it.
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.640
I always say um I feel like I'm unemployable.
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:37.680
Like if I absolutely have to get a job, I will.
00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:41.119
But man, it would it would take a lot to get there.
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:41.920
Correct.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:42.319
Right.
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:44.880
So talk to us a little bit about them.
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:49.920
So you made this decision, you know, I see this opportunity that people aren't seeing.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:50.960
I've kind of tested it.
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:52.400
I'm gonna go all in.
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:58.079
Kind of outline it for us the next six or twelve months, like how did you know what was the outcome?
00:23:58.240 --> 00:23:58.880
What happened?
00:23:59.359 --> 00:23:59.920
It was chaos.
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:00.720
It was chaos, right?
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.039
So look, I leave London, firstly, right?
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:05.519
So I haven't been back to London in a year.
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:08.720
I probably went back for maybe a week max, like in between.
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:13.119
But I leave London and I get a one-way ticket to Southeast Asia.
00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:15.039
Actually, no, I did I did stop in other places.
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:16.319
Why Southeast Asia?
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:17.519
Because it's very affordable.
00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:23.359
And when I was starting out with very limited funds, I was like, okay, I need a place to sleep, I need to eat, doing this bootstrapped.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:26.799
So yeah, I mean, I spent a lot of time in in actually Vietnam, incredible country.
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:28.000
Spend a lot of time there.
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:30.240
And it was 18 hour days, seven days a week.
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:32.319
18 hour days, seven days a week.
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:36.400
Obviously, now we're still working hard, I'm still working hard, but my work has changed a lot, right?
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:41.200
Obviously, now we're building a team, whatever, whatever, but that's what it took to get this off the ground with no outside.
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:43.759
Because like one thing, okay, you can build the best thing on earth.
00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:46.160
How do you attract people to even like how are you doing this?
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:51.839
How are you getting people to even sign up and give you their money and trust you with their Google Ads campaigns, which is sensitive because they're spending real money on something?
00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:53.680
Like, like that's a whole other ball game.
00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:55.519
And then also, next thing, how do you keep them?
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:57.599
You can't like you need to keep these people, right?
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:02.079
So, yeah, doing all that, doing all of that equation will basically was 18 hour days, seven days a week.
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:03.359
It's a lot of it's a blur.
00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:04.480
I have to be super honest with you.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:05.519
It's literally a blur.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:18.559
I would just wake up, check my phone, see what's occurred the night before, and I have like 50 notifications, fifty like 50 fires to put out, and I'm like, oh my god, and rinse and repeat like for many months on end.
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:21.359
Obviously, now it's different, it's very different, but yeah, that's what it looked like.
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:22.720
It's a lot of it's just a big blur.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:27.359
You have hit on something though that I've actually not heard in any of our interviews.
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:33.440
You went to a completely other country so that you could make this happen.
00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:36.400
How did you land on sorry, you said Philippines, right?
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.160
Or was it No no no Southeast Asia?
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:40.319
I did travel a little bit, but Vietnam was probably the place I stayed on.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:40.720
Vietnam.
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:41.279
Vietnam.
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.039
So yeah, how did you like how did you even make that decision?
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:46.559
Because you don't even have a support network.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:52.880
I assume if you'd stayed in England, like worst case c scenario, you could go live with your parents or something if you had to.
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:54.720
Like, how did you decide?
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:55.039
No.
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:55.680
No.
00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:59.759
Well, I I like I said, it was Vietnam is actually super affordable, but it's an incredible country.
00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:02.720
Just in general, as a as a segue, it's really an incredible country, I think.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:11.039
But I was like, also actually, somebody I was working with, yes, I missed this L, one of the engineers I had was actually an English guy who had moved to Vietnam.
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:12.400
Uh around my age.
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:13.759
So like that was always there.
00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:15.200
We'd spoken about it, whatever, whatever.
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:17.759
And I'm like, well, rent in London is gonna be minimum.
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:20.799
Uh I don't know, 2K, 3K a month, whatever it is.
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:27.920
I need somewhere where I can stay for cheap and put all of the money back into building product, uh, built trying to build basically the best product that can be done.
00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:32.319
So yeah, that was there was that connection with one of what somebody on the TV was already there speaking highly of it.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:34.000
So I was curious and I went.
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:35.920
And I I ended up really, really enjoying it.
00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:47.359
And I guess one advantage that, you know, you've mentioned it briefly, but potentially one advantage is your age in the sense that you probably had you weren't taking kids with you.
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:47.680
Right.
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.160
I assume you weren't married at the time or have a long-term partner or something.
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:53.039
So correct.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.119
Fully like zero strings.
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:59.200
Of course, I've got my brother who's still in London, but obviously we arrange for him to come, etc.
00:26:59.359 --> 00:26:59.519
etc.
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:06.079
But yeah, like obviously if I had if I was married with kids, that's a very different equation, very different thinking, unfortunately.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:06.559
Yeah.
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:14.000
And that's I mean, I think that's important to when you are assessing risk, and we did have a guest talk about this, is your age does become a factor.
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:19.680
And not to say that you can't go out on your own and take risks, it's just the evaluation is a little different.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:20.480
Big time.
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:21.599
Yeah, totally agree.
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:24.319
And so where are you today with the company?
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:25.599
Like what what would you say?
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:26.720
Oh, right, yeah, cool.
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:27.920
Um, I was gonna say, where am I today?
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:28.799
I'm in Miami currently.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:33.680
Um but look, we are you're growing really really super quick, right?
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:38.319
So the transition was we start off as a steel tool, great, got lots of users, use that to show our custom models.
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:42.319
And then since January, we basically deployed full autonomy on Doodle Guads campaigns.
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:46.799
So we were the first in the world to have genuine ful fully end autonomous campaigns.
00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:49.599
And since then it's just been this, not like this at the start.
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:51.920
It was like okay, growing month to month, it's great, steady.
00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:55.359
Since January, it's been like I've we have been unable to keep up with demands.
00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:00.160
And like now we're in hiring mode, team of 12, probably be 20, probably by June or July.
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:02.480
Um but I also try to keep things super lean just in general.
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:07.440
But yeah, short answer is since launching full autonomy, it's kind of been uh yeah, hard to keep up with.
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:12.079
What what are the time frames associated with that, just for reference for our listeners?
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:17.759
How long until you did the full autonomous thing, and how long has it been since then?
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:18.400
Or you know?
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:19.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:25.839
So yeah, like I said, so first SaaS that we released to the world, like recommendations, was in July of last year.
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:27.920
Okay, July, July 2025.
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:33.440
We spend basically six, seven months from that point building towards full autonomy.
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:39.440
So like away from a SaaS to now, we are displacing entire teams and people are running everything for us.
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:42.720
Um and we released that the first of January, 2026.
00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:54.160
And that was, I guess, our big little bit of a big moment because since then it's just been month on month, even though as we've increased doubled, tripled prices since then, demand continuing, the number of signups basically doubling each month, etc.
00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:54.480
etc.
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:57.359
Amount of spend is going a lot more than double.
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:00.400
So yeah, we're now we're now at a good point, basically building the team.
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:02.960
I think we found that nice, a nice fit at this point.
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:08.160
And so uh did looking back, did anything not go as planned?
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:11.839
So much, so much.
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:14.319
These days a lot less isn't going as planned, I think.
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:15.359
We're a lot more solid.
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:15.599
Yeah.
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:18.000
Systems, like we know we really do know what we're doing.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:22.799
But I think, yeah, in the early days when we were figuring things out, definitely a lot didn't go as planned.
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:29.119
Um yeah, I could tell you a lot of stories, but I think probably the first six, seven months were the most chaotic on the product side, etc.
00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:29.599
etc.
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:32.559
Now we're in a place where we really do, we know what we're doing.
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:35.440
Well, so like what wasn't going as planned?
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:36.480
Was it more product?
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:46.559
Was it more um, yeah, like you know, if you had to bucket it, like what type of challenges were we running into and how are you approaching those challenges to address them?
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:48.000
Yeah, I think product.
00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:48.880
I think product, right?
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:50.640
Like, just because it's really, really hard.
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:57.279
Like it's really hard to build what we've done, which is why like I I would give our entire front-end code to any competitor who wants it.
00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:58.880
Like you can build it, like that's not the hard bit.
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:04.240
The hard bit is making sure that the decision-making engine is very sound and building what a human can do.
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:07.200
That's a really, really, really tough technical problem to crack.
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:11.200
And you can only do that if you have lots of different customers across lots of different niches, locations, etc.
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:11.599
etc.
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:15.839
So figuring that bit out was by far the hardest, and actually that's where I spend the most of my time.
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.559
Growth and getting organic growth was never an issue.
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:23.680
Um, because since the early days, LLMs have really liked GROAS, so they always recommend us.
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:29.599
So like we basically grew to seven figures ARR, surely like all of it organic, and we did that in like six months.
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:36.559
All of it is organic, obviously referrals, customer showing other customers, custom customers, but all of it is organic, SEO, LLMs, whatever, whatever.
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:38.559
Now we're in obviously a different growth phase.
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:40.240
And so now we're using other other channels.
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:41.680
But yeah, that's that's how it happened.
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:50.160
So if you look back across this whole time from private equity to where you are now, would you have done anything differently?
00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:51.039
At what point?
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:54.160
Are we are we talking like now with Growass or like in my career or like what?
00:30:54.480 --> 00:31:00.559
Well, yeah, it's like would you have like skipped private equity before, or do you think that was good?
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:11.359
And then if you, you know, would you have timed your leave differently if you were still gonna, you know, if you thought the private equity was still valuable, anything in that time frame would you have done differently?
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:12.400
Well, you answered it for me.
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:18.559
Yeah, sure answers I would have never gone into I would have just immediately so I graduated uni during COVID times.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:24.960
My plan when I was finishing uni was to go travel a little bit, travel, travel a little bit, and then do something for myself.
00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:26.480
Not exactly clear.
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:32.160
Um, obviously, COVID happened, whole world shut down, couldn't travel, and I ended up basically getting offered a job.
00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:38.079
So some VC firm in London heard about what I was doing as part of my undergrad thesis, they heard about it, they uh they gave me a job based off that.
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:40.079
I was like, okay, look, no one else is hiring.
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:41.839
And I just sort of fell into it a little bit, right?
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:49.680
Uh but possibly what I would change is going back, maybe stick, stick a little bit more to my original plan and not not take that job, right?
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:53.359
Wait it out a little bit and try start something 21, right?
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:59.759
Um because if I would have started something at 21, like I would have been a completely different beast at 25 with all the learnings that I had.
00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:04.720
So yeah, I think maybe maybe a bit a bit more patient, wait things out and do what I wanted to do initially.
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:09.680
Um because once I fell into private equity, obviously it gets harder and harder every year to leave for various reasons.
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:14.640
But I think I did it in terms of my timing of of the leave, I think I did it basically pretty spot on, pretty happy.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:26.960
And so is how would you recommend if uh uh sorry, I'm I'm trying to figure out how to to phrase this correctly, but you know, can you teach people to see that asymmetric opportunity?
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:32.319
Like, can you give any advice on how people can see opportunity that may not exist?
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:33.359
Yeah, it's really tough.
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:36.400
I think it comes down to two things in my opinion, at least for me.
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:39.599
One is you need to know your gut, like know yourself, know yourself very well.
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:41.839
Trust your gut always, if possible.
00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:44.880
If you have a good general instincts, I think you you'll know that.
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:46.319
You should always follow that.
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:54.799
You know, I think your your gut, whatever you want to call it, your subconscious, however you wanna phrase that, is able to process more information than your conscious mind can.
00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:57.200
And there's a lot more learnings accumulated over its life.
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:00.799
I think, yeah, if you can trust your gut and you're very sure on something, you should do it.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:11.519
Because even if, by the way, even if you're wrong, even if you're wrong on this this idea of yours, uh having the ability to pivot, just be resilient enough to pivot is the more important quality, right?
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:17.599
So I think if you if you know that you're someone who's resilient, can like do things on the fly, I think you should that that's how you should operate.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:22.079
And the other thing is like figure out what particular advantage you like you have, you have you've accumulated.
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:27.839
So for me, it was uh okay in the cybersecurity thing, it was like no one else was doing this, I know a lot about cyber, let me do this.
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:36.000
And also, probably no one at the time had the uh audacity to like market something as a great like I'm gonna teach your son how to break into his neighbor's life.
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:36.799
No one was doing that.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:38.559
It was all like very correct, etc.
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:39.599
So like I did that.
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:42.000
I was 19, a bit more reckless, and it worked great.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:45.200
For Growass, my advantage was I think a couple things.
00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:46.720
One, I'm still deeply technical.
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:48.480
I've been coding since I was like 13, 14.
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:48.880
That's good.
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:51.680
So I know how to build a product successfully and also how to hire good engineers.
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:52.400
That's another equation.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.200
Two, I also knew like a good amount of Google Ads.
00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:56.880
I spent a lot of money on it.
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:58.960
Uh, and I also grasped it really quickly, etc.
00:33:59.119 --> 00:33:59.359
etc.
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:01.440
So I think I had like married those two things.
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:08.639
And finally, I think a big advantage, possibly also disadvantage a little bit sometimes, was I was a humongous outsider to like the whole marketing space.
00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:10.719
Uh I'd never worked at a marketing agency.
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:12.559
I didn't really have any good friends who were marketing.
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:14.880
And so that gave me my own perspective on how things should be done.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:17.119
I didn't have any like bad biases of like all etc.
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:19.920
So I think those three things married gave me the courage.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:20.960
So I had my own advantages.
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.840
And I think that you should assess that when you know and doing everything.
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:31.599
You had a domain expertise without having industry expertise, it sounds like so you could bring new insights to the industry.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:32.159
Correct.
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:37.199
Just to add on that, there's a lot of stuff they like a marketing agency would do, which I'm like, this doesn't make logical sense.
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:38.239
But they all do this.
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:39.840
This is insane, but they all do this.
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.960
So like that's why like we've been able to differentiate ourselves because I just operate it like from first principles, like what's logical to do.
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:53.360
And so, if you know, what advice would you give somebody who was maybe at the same crossroads that you were at when you, you know.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:55.760
Yeah, and it depends on your life circumstances.
00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:04.559
Like for me, the bigger risk was actually not doing anything because at the time, again, I was single, no kids, like 25, that sort of age, like it was very obvious.
00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:06.400
Actually, I should just do it, even if it doesn't work out.
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:09.440
Somebody else, I think you have to maybe be a bit more conservative, right?
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:17.679
If you're later in your career, probably the answer would have been for them, if they're in my exact same same shoes, maybe try get to a certain point of revenue with your side business first, right?
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.039
To the point where it's almost replacing what you currently have.
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:22.719
At that point, okay, maybe you can jump.
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:26.559
So I think the the risk tolerance will change a lot depending on your life circumstances.
00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:32.400
But for me, I could basically go full risk on, no investors, no nothing, very, very limited personal funds.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:33.199
I I'd figure it out.
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:34.880
But yeah, I think it just depends on on the person.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:37.360
Well, David, this has been a really fun conversation.
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:41.280
I'd just like to ask, what's one thing you want to leave top of mind with our audience?
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:42.239
Trust your gut.
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:43.440
I've said it a few times.
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:45.280
I think it's a it's a good, it's a good saying.
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:46.880
If you have a good gut, I think you should trust it.
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:51.920
And if somebody wants to find out more about what you do or follow you, where do they do that?
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:56.880
Our website, probably the best place to to start, groas g R O A S.ai.
00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:02.079
I'm on LinkedIn, but yeah, you can email me at dpgross.ai, but yeah, most of the info you want is is on the website.
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:02.719
Perfect.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:05.760
Well, thank you so much for taking the time out to be on our show today.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:06.400
Thank you so much.
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:06.960
It was a pleasure.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:14.239
And to our audience, until next time, make the decision, act on it, be accountable, and stay unstoppable.