TYE57_Redefining Leadership with Neema Namadamu TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Neema Namadamu: You know is some people say, oh, I didn't have success because such and such. Don't be complaining. You understand what I mean?
[00:00:09] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. I can't have success because of these obstacles is complaining.
[00:00:14] Neema Namadamu: Yes. To complain really is kind of is, it's killing me. It's like you don't control yourself. When you discover why you are born, you don't have really in your mind, you don't have barriers.
[00:00:32] Liz Wiltzen: INTRO: Hey, hey, hey. So glad you're here. This is Tracking Yes, and you are exactly where you're meant to be. I'm your host Liz Wiltzen, coach, creator and round-the-clock philosopher, and this, my friends, is where the magic happens. Join me and my guests for stories that will inspire you to dial up your curiosity, [00:01:00] fine tune your courage and wisdom, and create an empowered relationship with whatever's happening now.
If you're curious about coaching or have been thinking that you might wanna work with me, let's talk. I've been coaching for over 15 years and I'm passionate about helping you get clear what is in the way of you becoming the wildly creative, empowered being that you came here to be. You can find out more at my website: lizwiltzen.com.
Neema Namadamu is the visionary founder of Hero Women Rising. She's spent her life advocating for a peaceful and prosperous eastern Congo, which is one of the most violent and dangerous places on earth, especially for women. She's committed to women having equal access to meaningful decision making at all levels, and to empowering them to contribute to society according to their own vision and [00:02:00] inspiration.
I first met Neema 22 years ago when her courage and wisdom inspired me to reach out for a conversation, and I am delighted to have her on the show today to share her warmth and humor and her deeply inspiring, no bullshit approach to leadership.
Neema, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk with me today. It is a great pleasure to have you here.
[00:02:29] Neema Namadamu: Welcome, welcome.
[00:02:31] Liz Wiltzen: You are a peace advocate and an advocate for women's rights in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where women's rights are really almost non-existent, and you've been doing this for many, many years.
And so I want to talk to you specifically about how we navigate challenging times, political times, social times where there's a lot of violence and injustice. You have learned so much about how [00:03:00] to move effectively in these very difficult situations. But before we dive into any of that, I would love to have you share your experience of the Congo.
I think we in the West see the violence and the struggles there, and I know that that is not all there is to it. I know you love your country very, very much so I would love you to share something with us about your country that the world maybe does not see.
[00:03:31] Neema Namadamu: Thank you for asking me those good questions and really I'm so happy to be with you.
Let me tell people my name is Neema Namadamu. I'm from DRC Congo, and also I'm the founder of Hero Women rising.org. That is the organization and I've been working many, many years, more 20 years I'm working on these issues. Thank you so much for [00:04:00] asking what good things you can know about Congo. Congo is the beautiful country. We have 100 million people, population, and the Congo also is rich.
in minerals, every kind of minerals they are looking for right now. And also, Congo is second rain forest after Amazon Forest. I live in East Congo in Bukavo, near Lake Kivu, between North Kivu and South Kivu, and also another neighbor country calling Rwanda. That is where I live and where I work.
Thank you so much for asking me to talk about the beauty. The Congo Beauty is a really fantastic, it's a really beautiful, I invite you to visit one day. You are welcome, my dear.
[00:04:57] Liz Wiltzen: Well, what a lovely invitation. Thank you so [00:05:00] much. And I know right now it's probably not a very safe place to visit. Yes?
[00:05:07] Neema Namadamu: Yes, that is true.
Right now we are in the middle of conflict. Fighting war, is taking so long. Because the conflict, war begin after 94, after Rwanda genocide. The military Rwandese who did genocide in Rwanda, fled to East Congo is why you have so long this conflict. And now all these people, the men, they fight for position, they fight for money, those the kind of chaos or mafia corruption.
Until today is really no peace. We've been fighting in civil society to these people we say, we [00:06:00] love you guys, but we don't like the system. It is a very patriarchal system in DRC
[00:06:08] Liz Wiltzen: I know that you really believe, which is incredible to me how you have found this perspective, but you say it is not the people, it's not the young boys committing these acts of atrocity that is the problem. It's the system.
[00:06:27] Neema Namadamu: Yes, exactly.
[00:06:27] Liz Wiltzen: Can you say, say it. Can you say a bit more about that?
[00:06:32] Neema Namadamu: The system is how corrupted, it's like system is in darkness. It doesn't see people, those kind of arrangements. It is continuing to treat people as kids or as stupid, and especially women . Our government today have first minister, she's woman, but it doesn't really, it's like [00:07:00] they put on a show.
They put her on a position as first minister for government. It's like some show. You show people, you show things. But the system is really so bad is a patriarchal system and this mafia system. That is what I can tell you. And the war, we are in desparate moment , is really critical timing right now.
My motherland is really a kind of women, they are raped and everything is raped, is a kind of chaos. You can't believe or imagine to live in IDP camp without any shelter, any help, women having babies in the bush. And no peace. And the women [00:08:00] having baby, you can't say, no, baby, stop coming. We are in some crazy timing.
No, the time is there. The baby come.
[00:08:14] Liz Wiltzen: Can you tell me what is an IDB camp?
[00:08:18] Neema Namadamu: Internal displacement people are not refugee. They're in own countries.
[00:08:26] Liz Wiltzen: So in these places, there are no medical facilities? No, no support for, like you said, women giving birth. Is this correct?
[00:08:37] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
And no water.
[00:08:40] Liz Wiltzen: No water?
[00:08:41] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
And when the women having babies in bush, other women friend around them and they go on river, they have water and they can come put a little fire in the bush. And they washing baby, and the [00:09:00] mom who have baby is really... the situation that how women, they're amazing. They do always magic to give us life.
Yeah. But right now is. People who stand up, young people who say Enough is enough. We are so tired. Our people, they are refugee around the world. The Congolese, they are now in America, in Australia, in Canada, everywhere because of that conflict in SDRC.
[00:09:44] Liz Wiltzen: And you are staying in the DRC fighting for peace .And your work challenges deeply ingrained systems of power.
I'm wondering how, how do you navigate [00:10:00] fear? And what have you learned about moving forward despite uncertainty?
[00:10:06] Neema Namadamu: Oh, that is big questions. You, you do. You survive without knowing you are survivor because you are in deep on the middle. When sometimes you tell like I'm telling you about war, about the conflict.
Sometimes I can't believe myself also, I can't believe sometimes you face that situations., You walk with fear every day. You say is, now is night. I don't know if it will be morning and when it is then you say, oh, I don't know if it will be night. You work on timing. That is the number one things. I I, these days.
I'm so shocked. I [00:11:00] don't want to hear news. I don't want to have my phone because I will hear bad news from my village, from my community, from my relative. You can see my posting on Facebook. You can read that story. You can see where I write on the Women International Women's Day. Look there.
[00:11:22] Liz Wiltzen: Okay. And we can find that just by searching Neema Namadamu on Facebook?
[00:11:27] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:11:28] Liz Wiltzen: And I will also link to that in the show notes. So it sounds like you're saying you just adapt to the uncertainty.
[00:11:36] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:11:38] Liz Wiltzen: I mean, it's just really remarkable to me how you do this because we as humans, we feel safer if we can feel some sense of certainty, even though life is inherently uncertain. We are always trying to make things certain.
But you live in a world and in an environment where it's just not even an option. And so [00:12:00] you're still, you're so creative and empowered as you move in the world and. I mean, you're saying I go to bed at night, I don't know if there's going to be a morning. I get up in the morning, I don't know if I'll still be alive at the end of the day.
And that is a level of uncertainty that most of us in the Western world, we have no idea what it's like to live with that kind of uncertainty. And yet you are this vibrant, joyful, exuberant, fully alive, hopeful... , I mean, I don't even know if that's the right word, but in the midst of this daily uncertainty, what have you learned about adapting to the truth that life is uncertain?
[00:12:45] Neema Namadamu: I really, I don't have other option. That is my life. I can't change. And I said, I don't have that power to change. And this is why maybe I have, [00:13:00] I can be sad, I can be crying or I can be happy, but is I don't have another option. That is my life. I, I learn how to enjoy every moment of my life. I learned how to, to really taking that moment.
This is a precious moment I have with you. I can be enjoying, I can say, this is wonderful. This is my moment. I really learned to be present, not to live my past or I live in, in like my head. No. I live, I enjoy, like I have interview with you. I live this moment, I'm with you. And tomorrow morning, I don't know. A
And some this question all the time, my colleagues we work with in in America, How can do tell us news? I say, I can't tell [00:14:00] you all news I have because is... I can maybe write book, and tomorrow the dynamic change. You can't plan. Yes, and it is that kind of, I live and I have to, to be present for those women, my dear sisters. Sometimes I ask help for them, some women who have babies in bush, some women with disability who can't run away.
Who can only say, I'm waiting to die. I can't run away. I don't have energy and I don't have a car. And we don't have, sometimes we don't have a road to go away. I don't have that option, but I enjoy that option I have, and I take opportunity. I do have [00:15:00] this job. I love it and I love it to share with the world, to know what is going on in DRC.
[00:15:08] Liz Wiltzen: And so you, you have been working in this system for all of your life, caring about ...you've been an advocate all of your life. I was so surprised to come to know that you had, you contracted polio at two years old, and so then you had to figure out how to navigate the world with a physical disability.
And when you were in high school, you started a radio show advocating on behalf of people with disabilities. When you were a teenager, you cared about these things. Has that always been just in you to advocate and to be socially active? Like how did this get born in you? [00:16:00]
[00:16:00] Neema Namadamu: My dear sister, I, this is like gift because when I born I was always, I have big mother.
My mom who loves me. Who care about me and I grown up with much love. She loves me. She care about me. I was the first born in my family, but I was always baby to my mother because I couldn't take myself to river, to wash myself. But my siblings can go to river, bring water and put on fire, and they can wash, hot water.
And my mother was really loves me. Sometimes when it's raining. My mother, she could, she can go to do this activity around the house and come and take me on her back, to go back home from school when it is raining. Is not [00:17:00] every day
[00:17:02] Liz Wiltzen: because it was harder for you to get around when it was wet?
[00:17:05] Neema Namadamu: Yes. , I didn't have crutches.
It was, I was walking with a stick and can slip so badly and sometimes when it is raining, other kid can run away and go fast and go home, be in in house. But me, I couldn't, but my mother was save me and go, bring me. And when she talk to me, say, everyone born by purpose. My purpose was this. When you discover why you are born, you don't have really, in your mind, you don't have barriers.
And if my, I raised in this big love and I don't know if I have enemy, I feel I don't have enemy because I see, I love everyone is why. When I see another person like me, another person with [00:18:00] disability or another woman, I love to see if she can have access to what I have. That is how I wish. I want to share that love.
I want to give because I have... You give what you have. That's love I have, and it is why I always speaking. Because I have education, I know to speak the language. I share these things. On behalf of millions and millions women and girls who doesn't have access to education, who doesn't know how to speak the language.
But I got that privilege and I did, that is not by making myself proud, but I wanted to say, I want around us, I want around the world, can know what is going on... through sisters sisterhood or friends or family. We are one human [00:19:00] being globally. Where we live in this planet, yeah. Is, this is me.
Advocacy, talking, sharing to connect people. That is my job.
[00:19:15] Liz Wiltzen: You, every time I've ever heard you speak about anything, it's obvious you are so deeply connected to beauty and to love and to possibility, and it's, it's like it doesn't matter what happens around you, you are so tethered to that in your being.
I know there's a story of your daughter when she was 25, was beaten by Congolese. Soldiers can you just share with us what happened when that experience unfolded for you, how you responded?
[00:19:56] Neema Namadamu: We was neighbors with colonel, with the [00:20:00] soldiers, and my daughter went out to buy time to put on my phone.
It was around seven night. They got her. Maybe it was going to rape. I don't know. They didn't rape her, but they beat her. And when she come back home, I was thinking, what I'm going to do? And I went in the morning, I went to meet soldier, I went to Colonel. I say, my dear Colonel, you supposed to give us a security.
You're supposed to protect us, but look where your soldier did. And he said, oh, mama Neema sorry, sorry, sorry. The other military came and told me they beat that guys in the compound, but everyone say Mama Neema, sorry. And I, I forgive them and they come to, again, my house and sometimes they come asking food or whatever.
And I give, [00:21:00] I really, um, I don't. Keep like, oh, I wanted to venge, and to venge is not solution, and is not love. Those young people is, how I say is the system. But the young people, they are military, they don't give good salaries and sometimes they have drugs. And is is, I can't put those blaming or those problem to young soldiers, but it is on systems. Yes.
[00:21:35] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. But being able to make that distinction is something that most people don't do. It feels like you are you can see the goodness of the human in the midst of their atrocious acts. You can see both. You can see both at the same time. For you, it's not one or the [00:22:00] other.
They're either a terrible person or they're a good person. It, it's like you see, you see forces acting on them that have them not act out of their goodness, but you still see the goodness.
[00:22:15] Neema Namadamu: Yes. And sometimes really, when I am in trouble moment, I. I always look solution, how I can do this, how I can do that, how I can help?
Because I've been struggling maybe on this difficulty, my, my life to walk with the stick all my life. I got my first crutches in 2007 when I went to, on a mission to work in South Africa.
[00:22:47] Liz Wiltzen: How old were you then?
[00:22:49] Neema Namadamu: I was maybe in the forties.
[00:22:53] Liz Wiltzen: You walked with a stick until you were in your forties, and that's when you first got crutches?
[00:22:59] Neema Namadamu: [00:23:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.
[00:23:03] Liz Wiltzen: Wow. And so, so you've said, because, I mean, I feel that now there's so much conflict between the humans and it's not it's not helping. , but we seem to be so caught in it. And you have said forgiveness is, it gives you peace and it gives you power. , and not like personal power, but some other kind of power. Can you speak to the power of forgiveness?
[00:23:37] Neema Namadamu: When you forgive in, in, in a human being inside himself, when you forgive something and you say, let forget, pass and continuing, that person will be struggling suffering because you know. You know what is the truth, and you [00:24:00] forgiving and you pass.
You continue. Yes. That is where I, I how I use. You have the power. Because when sometimes when you, you go to give something, sometimes I struggle to give someone, like they asking money. Oh my gosh, I don't have much. But after I give, I feel blessed and I feel like, wow, I did. But inside me, before I give, I struggle.
But when you give, really you have power. And when you forgive, you have power. But is the power in you. No one who can see that. Because before you make that decision is inside yourself, you are fighting inside you.
[00:24:49] Liz Wiltzen: What are you fighting?
[00:24:52] Neema Namadamu: Sometimes you want to make good, but bad is coming for to say, don't give. This person is this,
he [00:25:00] show you two things. But for me, I decide, and I teach myself, not to see bad things. No. I, because I have to love that things, to love that person. Not to see always negative.
[00:25:17] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. I'm getting it now. I'm getting the peace and the power that you're talking about. Because it's, it's a shift in your own being of, is the world a good place or a bad place?
[00:25:32] Neema Namadamu: Yes. Yes. Because every world is depending how you see yourself, not other people telling you. The world you lives, it can beat paradise or it can be hell. It is depend on you, how you understand, how you are satisfactions and how you feel. Some people who feel, oh, I'm [00:26:00] horrible. I'm not beautiful. Oh, I'm handicapped.
Some people who are rich, and they become problem. Is how you see things.
[00:26:10] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And, and now I'm starting to understand why you are so incredibly courageous, but in this most confident, you have such a confident, courageous way about you, because I love, one of my favorite things that you say is, my job is to make noise and be a troublemaker.
[00:26:37] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:26:39] Liz Wiltzen: That requires, that requires courage and confidence.
[00:26:44] Neema Namadamu: Yes. I'm a little, I'm a nothing. I'm a mosquito. You understand what I mean? Right. A mosquito. But in that being a mosquito is small, but. I'm with [00:27:00] you without asking you, permission without respecting protocols.
This is not right.
[00:27:13] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah,
[00:27:14] Neema Namadamu: yes, this is not right, and that really, I don't know where it's come from to have that is to show human being, they are equal. Some people say "important people". We are all important and we are all vulnerable, and we are all human being. We have the right to be happy. We have the right to be sad.
We have right to enjoy, we have right to cry. But everyone, you can have any position, but those are things you have. We have the same functions. One time I went to Israel, I was having a training about [00:28:00] intergenerational trauma. I was talking with people from Belgium, Sweden and other people, and I see how, how people still suffering that intergenerational trauma between Jewish and Palestine.
And you see, if people can not forgive... I was telling people maybe these days I write story, I say, I'm the last generation to suffer. Yes. Not to, to give legacy of those intergenerational trauma, those intergenerational conflict, those intergenerational... this, and war, and what... but let's enjoy, let people enjoy this planet.
You know how, how to [00:29:00] give the message globally, let's not to give... let's give good legacy to our children, grandchildrens our, our new generations. That is where we want, that is where we want to, my dear sister. Is really sometimes Wow. If you see everything we have, why? Why fighting? Why struggle? Why hunger?
Why still today? Women having baby, giving life in bush.
[00:29:49] Liz Wiltzen: And why? Why? Like, why do you think we still have all of this struggle fighting
[00:29:58] Neema Namadamu: Human being, he [00:30:00] doesn't know how to enjoy this planet
[00:30:02] Liz Wiltzen: I mean, you just keep bringing it back. It's that simple, isn't it? Yes,
[00:30:09] Neema Namadamu: yes, yes.
People wanting. He, can, he seems like he can't enjoy himself. No. Because human being doesn't know how to enjoy this mother earth.
[00:30:28] Liz Wiltzen: So in your work with empowering women, what have you seen happens when women come together to rise? What's possible collectively, that isn't possible alone.
[00:30:43] Neema Namadamu: You feel energy.
You feel joy, you feel connected. You feel, I'm not different. For those women who, who will be raped physically and emotionally and [00:31:00] all belonging goes away. With me too, where I build the Center for Women, School for Kids. All this take away. I have a chance to... let me tell you a little story. When the conflict begin
I was with one my friends, he lives in, Los Angeles. He is a filmmaker. He was with me and the, the day I see tension was really already happening in my village in Itambo where we build our big center for women and the school. And next day we take flight back to Bukavo, and they told me, they put fire on my car ,and to organization. And there was so much cry that day.
It was my first time to cry. Very, very loud. [00:32:00] And he came, he was so afraid and he told me, please. We still have you, we are together. We, we will build that center with me. Neema, don't cry again. And I was quiet and relaxing listening to him. That was really wonderful. And for me, I, I don't have the bad memories because they destroy our center.
But the vision I have is ,we are going to rebuild. More beautiful. Not like was, but more beautiful. That is making me, when I see women together, when women writing and telling a story, sometimes we laugh, other times we cry. Other times we don't have words. Other times we don't have a way to do, but I share with them, I [00:33:00] have many women around the world.
I share our stories. It is not only Neema's story, it's whole thousand, millions of women in Congo. Who didn't have a possibility or opportunity to get education, to get to speak different language, to get to, to visit world, to see the world, to see different culture, and that's making world beautiful.
Beautifully. You know, that is amazing. When I speak English with you and when, when women meet together and we share. We say, we are not really fighting with men, we are fighting with system. That is the big, big, my job. Every day I talk to women, I say, you know, we love the men. We love our brothers.
They [00:34:00] don't know. You know, our, our, our kids, the men, we raised them, we grow up with them. We give life. But he can come to you telling these stories that positive things are coming from the meetings in Africa, or especially in the Congo. But Women supposed to be married, to have a baby, stay home, cooking for his family, providing all those kind...
but right now we don't have that foundation as a family. Men become, like useless because the conflict, they're fighting. They're not men. They don't take that responsibility because this war, this conflict become also... he doesn't have time to, to think about his family. It is women who think about the family.
And when women really meeting [00:35:00] together, they making actions. For example, they can be together today, will say, oh, you know, our neighbor lost his son, or his husband, or his daughter. You have together, because the one person individual, you can't make it. For example, we say, okay, I don't have $100.
Maybe I have five, and whole, this team, together, maybe we are 100 women, and everyone will give $1. And we take that as a group. When women make the action happen, they are building families. Psychologically and physically.
[00:35:46] Liz Wiltzen: And not just blood relative family, but the family of community.
[00:35:51] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:35:52] Liz Wiltzen: You said earlier that the system is the problem, and so do you see the way these men are [00:36:00] showing up, do you see this as how men are when they're caught in the system?
[00:36:08] Neema Namadamu: I think almost. All, many, they are caught in system, almost all, maybe around the world. Because the system is so long built and the system is only built by men.
[00:36:25] Liz Wiltzen: So specifically with Hero Women Rising. What role can men play in supporting women's liberation and equality? If a man's listening to this podcast right now and he doesn't want to be a pawn in the patriarchal system, at the mercy of the system, having just only to seek power and position, like if he actually wants the return to community and family that that you are advocating for, what can he do?
[00:36:58] Neema Namadamu: Okay. The [00:37:00] man who can listening to this broadcast, he can really come to us as, as himself. He want to build better world, better life, and is all men, they are welcome. And all those also who are in the system, they can try to building us, to support us, to lifting us. Because they have that capacity, I believe, and I'm sure with you, my dear sister, if men stand up, helping, pushing us, like the expression, if you see big man, is woman behind him.
Is, how would they say yes? And also let's do: if you see woman, is man behind it. I invite all men to be behind us, lifting us, [00:38:00] sharing us and love us. We need to be loved, we need to be supported, and we love them to supporting us. Really. They're welcome.
[00:38:12] Liz Wiltzen: That brings us to, because I feel like what you're naming, we haven't actually named it, but what we've been talking about is leadership. You lead with strength and vision and heart,
and I'm curious, how do you define leadership, and what do you believe the world needs more of from its leaders?
[00:38:35] Neema Namadamu: They're not different with us. Not at all. The way we want is they can know we are also human being. It can be men or women, or boy or girls. All human being deserve justice and [00:39:00] equality and good life and respect. Because now
again, that system making some, oh, you are black, you are white, you are rich, you are poor. But we are all human being and we deserve respect and love.
[00:39:22] Liz Wiltzen: Something that, you have said that I just think is such an important message right now, with what's happening with social media and with the world of influencers...you have said, impact is not measured by whether or not you are amassing followers...
this is, it's such a thing that people are chasing right now, to be an influencer and to amass followers, and, and you just so simply say, impact is not measured by that. It's whether or not you are inspiring leadership. [00:40:00]
[00:40:00] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:40:00] Liz Wiltzen: Because we don't want leaders and followers, which is what the influencer realm is a setup for.
[00:40:07] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:40:07] Liz Wiltzen: Leaders and followers. And you're saying, no, we need leaders. Only. Everybody be a leader. Like find your leadership. And with your, the foundation that you've created. Hero Women Rising.
[00:40:22] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:40:23] Liz Wiltzen: You are about helping young women. Become leaders.
[00:40:31] Neema Namadamu: Yes. Don't complain. You know, it is some people, oh, I didn't have success because such and such. Don't be complaining.
You understand what I mean?
[00:40:45] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. I didn't have success be I can't have success because of these obstacles is complaining. Yeah.
[00:40:53] Neema Namadamu: But for me is everyone. You can be leader. You lead your family, you lead [00:41:00] your marriage, you lead your kid, you lead... and all this. When you lead your family good, your neighbor will see.
And another neighbor, another neighbor, another neighbor.
And it's not only to be influencer, to say, oh, Neema I put on Instagram and is 10 million people see. No. For me, I'm not looking that. We are not only blessed people or smart people. Whole world is full of smart people. Everyone have talent.
Everyone can make it if, if you pushing them on, if you show them. If is is like you have babies, you know. Babies when is little, you see how magic women do to raise. If we can raise all women, we can raise all kids. This world will be magic.
[00:41:56] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. Yeah. I'm really making a [00:42:00] connection right now ,because I know a big part of your essential work is to, because in the DRC women are objectified, they are, minimized, they're marginalized, they're treated more as second rate citizen. And, and so one of your mandates is to empower women to feel their value, to feel their worth, to feel their mattering. And I'm just making a connection right now about how important not complaining is.
[00:42:41] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:42:41] Liz Wiltzen: Because when you're complaining, you're feeling like. I'm at the mercy of life.
But when you are, when you say, I'm not going to complain, I'm going to enjoy, you start to feel that you are someone who deserves to enjoy life.
[00:42:59] Neema Namadamu: [00:43:00] Yes.
[00:43:00] Liz Wiltzen: Who gets to have the goodness of life happening for you. And that imparts a sense of your own personal value.
[00:43:09] Neema Namadamu: Yes. When sometimes I have many women who are my age,
they didn't go to school and, and they say, oh, because my parents didn't want me to go to school. They want me to be married. You know, complaining. That to complain, really is kind of, is, is is killing me. It's like you don't control yourself. You want every time people control you. It why you give reasons.
[00:43:46] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. Excuses.
[00:43:48] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:43:49] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. Yeah. Complaining and excuses are kind of in the same camp. And what you're saying is, you're not in your own empowerment when you complain and give excuses. [00:44:00]
[00:44:00] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:44:00] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. And so you're passionate about not letting that stand. You're like, no, that is not okay for you to do that. Because you are so committed to connecting women to their mattering.
To their value.
[00:44:18] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
To power.
[00:44:21] Liz Wiltzen: To their power. Yeah. So how can we, who would love to support the work you're doing? Tell us about Hero Women Rising and tell us about what actually is helpful.
For you.
[00:44:33] Neema Namadamu: Oh, good. That's a good question. Thank you so much. Now we become professional and sometimes administration or professional stuff...
I like things happening organically like we are talking heart to heart. But let talk about this, the work. This is really good vision that come to me is to [00:45:00] empower women, to make leaders to impact new generation. In Hero Women Rising we have four areas. One is education. We have a school in IDP camp in Itomba, and we have now 240 kids.
That goes from one to eight
[00:45:24] Liz Wiltzen: Grades one to eight?
[00:45:26] Neema Namadamu: Yes. Yes. And we have a program, Light of Hope. We pay school fees for orphans and also scholarship for girls, only girls, who finish secondary school who doesn't have way to go to university. We pay school fees for medicine and law.
We have also another program that we call SBS.
Training of women doing small business entrepreneurship, and right now we have a big grant from Redwood [00:46:00] Project from Los Angeles and we are almost end of our grant. We have four years, that is what they do, four years only. And we are looking for, right now, other partner who can jump in doing that gap.
Second, we are planting trees. We have our partner, she lives in California. Her name is Osprey Oleg. Is now 10 years we are partnering with her, and she's supporting us to have seeds, to have gloves, and we already planting more than 300,000 trees. From 2015 is when we begin that program.
Because when I back in my village, and I see how women goes so far to look for firewood to cook, and to have light in night. Because in my village we live [00:47:00] naturally. We don't have air conditioner, we don't have artificial light, is only with fire, with wood. And the women was going so far, four hours, five hours to look wood for cooking.
Is no life, if you don't have wood to cook. And I say, you live this big land and you go so far, why you can't plant these trees? How we, we bring? And our purpose to planting the trees was to maintain our forest. Itombo Forest .That is not to cut again our natural forest, because that is medicine inside.
It bring us good breath. Oxygen. And right now we are on the front line to fight with climate change. We want to plant 1 million trees. And with planting trees, we have also food security. We already planting [00:48:00] soy beans, vegetables, potato. We do also food security and then fighting malnutrition.
Another program we have is making pads for girls and adolescents, women who lives in remote area.
They don't have a pad. And long time ago, people not to go to school. If women, they are in period, they don't be in public places. But now we have school, we have a church, we have meetings, we have girls doing theater, club or to be in public place. And we are making pads you can use one for three years.
Those is the project we are doing. And if you wanted to know more about what we do, you can go www hero women rising.org and you can see our website. And [00:49:00] please share. Everywhere you are in the world, you are welcome to support, to contribute. That will be wonderful. And your donation is welcome. We need your talking about our work and be our ambassador, to share with other people and to enjoy the connection, and to be together.
[00:49:22] Liz Wiltzen: Thank you. Thank you for laying that out. And you are so clear, your word would be mainstreaming, but like bringing into the fore women with disabilities, women who are marginalized, empowering them can impact the collective heart and soundness of society. This is where a connection is broken that you're wiring together. This isn't just about the women, this is about the heart of society.
[00:49:56] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:49:57] Liz Wiltzen: The societies that we live in are [00:50:00] so imbalanced right now in this patriarchal culture where, certainly in many, many places, there are men in positions of power who are taking and abusing and not caring about the impact. And it's like you're just coming in from the complete other side of it and pushing into the space
saying, empowered women, just this, is the difference that will bring us back into balance.
[00:50:32] Neema Namadamu: Yes, exactly. You are right. You are right. Bring women, give them understanding. For example, right now we are in this conflict zone, but when women can be wife, mother to that guy who's fighting, women can say, please calm down, don't have drugs [00:51:00] and let's raise this kid.
This is not normal way to be father.
[00:51:07] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. So an empowered woman can bring a lot of influence into the way her husband is operating in the world.
[00:51:17] Neema Namadamu: Yes. Exactly.
[00:51:20] Liz Wiltzen: And so, as we're wrapping up, I want to share something that happened in setting up this interview. I was so touched, because way back in 2013, I was in a leadership program and I had an idea, that did not come to fruition, but my idea was to do a series of portraits, painted portraits of women leaders in difficult places.
I had a name, Dark Corners, Bright Lights. I had a vision for this, but it didn't get off the ground. But at that time, and I don't remember how I heard of you, but somehow I heard of you back then and I reached out to you and we got onto [00:52:00] Skype. It wasn't even Zoom back then, we got onto Skype and had a wonderful hour long conversation, and so that was our first meeting.
That was like, so 2013, what is that?
[00:52:12] Neema Namadamu: 20 years ago
[00:52:13] Liz Wiltzen: 22 years ago. Okay. So, I had interviewed Cynthia Jus recently on the podcast about her project to bury sacred treasure vases around the earth in places in need of protection and healing. And she came to the Democratic Republic of the Congo to ...look at the smile on your face, you obviously have a great affection for Cynthia, she came to partner with you to bury an earth treasure vase in, her project to create peace points around the world.
So then I interview Cynthia, we talk about you, you're back in my heart and on my radar. And so I think I would love to interview you, and I [00:53:00] find an old email and I write you, but I don't tell you who I am or that we met before, anything like that.
I just said, oh, I've been following your work and would love to interview you.
And you wrote back and said, yes, I remember you from back in 2013. You had a heart for our work back then, and we talked about you doing a portrait. And I was astounded, Neema, that you would, all the things that have happened in your life in the last 22 years, all the people you have met, all the, everything. That you would remember that. I was so moved by that. So I just want to say thank you for that.
[00:53:42] Neema Namadamu: Thank my dear sister. Thank you.
[00:53:45] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. Yeah. It was really, really lovely that we now have had a chance to connect it.
[00:53:51] Neema Namadamu: Connect. Yes. Welcome my dear sister Lisa. You were really rock to us and we want [00:54:00] you to continue your work.
I really, we are so happy to be Tracking Yes with you, and we'll see everything, how it can go together. Thank you.
[00:54:14] Liz Wiltzen: Thanks for joining us today, everyone. If you like this show, I'd so appreciate it if you'd subscribe and share it with people you think would love it. You can also become a patron by going to trackingyes.com and clicking on the Support the Show link in the top right of the navigation panel.
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If you're curious about coaching or have been thinking that you might want to work with me, now's a really great time.
I have some spots available in my practice and I offer a free sample session so we can have a conversation and see if it [00:55:00] feels like a good fit. And also due to a current client who is a generous benefactor, I have a partial scholarship available if you could benefit from some financial assistance.
You can find out more about coaching and working with me at my coaching website, lizwiltzen.com.
Talk to you next time, and in the meantime, have a great week and keep your compass lined up with yes.
[00:00:00] Neema Namadamu: You know is some people say, oh, I didn't have success because such and such. Don't be complaining. You understand what I mean?
[00:00:09] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. I can't have success because of these obstacles is complaining.
[00:00:14] Neema Namadamu: Yes. To complain really is kind of is, it's killing me. It's like you don't control yourself. When you discover why you are born, you don't have really in your mind, you don't have barriers.
[00:00:32] Liz Wiltzen: INTRO: Hey, hey, hey. So glad you're here. This is Tracking Yes, and you are exactly where you're meant to be. I'm your host Liz Wiltzen, coach, creator and round-the-clock philosopher, and this, my friends, is where the magic happens. Join me and my guests for stories that will inspire you to dial up your curiosity, [00:01:00] fine tune your courage and wisdom, and create an empowered relationship with whatever's happening now.
If you're curious about coaching or have been thinking that you might wanna work with me, let's talk. I've been coaching for over 15 years and I'm passionate about helping you get clear what is in the way of you becoming the wildly creative, empowered being that you came here to be. You can find out more at my website: lizwiltzen.com.
Neema Namadamu is the visionary founder of Hero Women Rising. She's spent her life advocating for a peaceful and prosperous eastern Congo, which is one of the most violent and dangerous places on earth, especially for women. She's committed to women having equal access to meaningful decision making at all levels, and to empowering them to contribute to society according to their own vision and [00:02:00] inspiration.
I first met Neema 22 years ago when her courage and wisdom inspired me to reach out for a conversation, and I am delighted to have her on the show today to share her warmth and humor and her deeply inspiring, no bullshit approach to leadership.
Neema, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk with me today. It is a great pleasure to have you here.
[00:02:29] Neema Namadamu: Welcome, welcome.
[00:02:31] Liz Wiltzen: You are a peace advocate and an advocate for women's rights in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where women's rights are really almost non-existent, and you've been doing this for many, many years.
And so I want to talk to you specifically about how we navigate challenging times, political times, social times where there's a lot of violence and injustice. You have learned so much about how [00:03:00] to move effectively in these very difficult situations. But before we dive into any of that, I would love to have you share your experience of the Congo.
I think we in the West see the violence and the struggles there, and I know that that is not all there is to it. I know you love your country very, very much so I would love you to share something with us about your country that the world maybe does not see.
[00:03:31] Neema Namadamu: Thank you for asking me those good questions and really I'm so happy to be with you.
Let me tell people my name is Neema Namadamu. I'm from DRC Congo, and also I'm the founder of Hero Women rising.org. That is the organization and I've been working many, many years, more 20 years I'm working on these issues. Thank you so much for [00:04:00] asking what good things you can know about Congo. Congo is the beautiful country. We have 100 million people, population, and the Congo also is rich.
in minerals, every kind of minerals they are looking for right now. And also, Congo is second rain forest after Amazon Forest. I live in East Congo in Bukavo, near Lake Kivu, between North Kivu and South Kivu, and also another neighbor country calling Rwanda. That is where I live and where I work.
Thank you so much for asking me to talk about the beauty. The Congo Beauty is a really fantastic, it's a really beautiful, I invite you to visit one day. You are welcome, my dear.
[00:04:57] Liz Wiltzen: Well, what a lovely invitation. Thank you so [00:05:00] much. And I know right now it's probably not a very safe place to visit. Yes?
[00:05:07] Neema Namadamu: Yes, that is true.
Right now we are in the middle of conflict. Fighting war, is taking so long. Because the conflict, war begin after 94, after Rwanda genocide. The military Rwandese who did genocide in Rwanda, fled to East Congo is why you have so long this conflict. And now all these people, the men, they fight for position, they fight for money, those the kind of chaos or mafia corruption.
Until today is really no peace. We've been fighting in civil society to these people we say, we [00:06:00] love you guys, but we don't like the system. It is a very patriarchal system in DRC
[00:06:08] Liz Wiltzen: I know that you really believe, which is incredible to me how you have found this perspective, but you say it is not the people, it's not the young boys committing these acts of atrocity that is the problem. It's the system.
[00:06:27] Neema Namadamu: Yes, exactly.
[00:06:27] Liz Wiltzen: Can you say, say it. Can you say a bit more about that?
[00:06:32] Neema Namadamu: The system is how corrupted, it's like system is in darkness. It doesn't see people, those kind of arrangements. It is continuing to treat people as kids or as stupid, and especially women . Our government today have first minister, she's woman, but it doesn't really, it's like [00:07:00] they put on a show.
They put her on a position as first minister for government. It's like some show. You show people, you show things. But the system is really so bad is a patriarchal system and this mafia system. That is what I can tell you. And the war, we are in desparate moment , is really critical timing right now.
My motherland is really a kind of women, they are raped and everything is raped, is a kind of chaos. You can't believe or imagine to live in IDP camp without any shelter, any help, women having babies in the bush. And no peace. And the women [00:08:00] having baby, you can't say, no, baby, stop coming. We are in some crazy timing.
No, the time is there. The baby come.
[00:08:14] Liz Wiltzen: Can you tell me what is an IDB camp?
[00:08:18] Neema Namadamu: Internal displacement people are not refugee. They're in own countries.
[00:08:26] Liz Wiltzen: So in these places, there are no medical facilities? No, no support for, like you said, women giving birth. Is this correct?
[00:08:37] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
And no water.
[00:08:40] Liz Wiltzen: No water?
[00:08:41] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
And when the women having babies in bush, other women friend around them and they go on river, they have water and they can come put a little fire in the bush. And they washing baby, and the [00:09:00] mom who have baby is really... the situation that how women, they're amazing. They do always magic to give us life.
Yeah. But right now is. People who stand up, young people who say Enough is enough. We are so tired. Our people, they are refugee around the world. The Congolese, they are now in America, in Australia, in Canada, everywhere because of that conflict in SDRC.
[00:09:44] Liz Wiltzen: And you are staying in the DRC fighting for peace .And your work challenges deeply ingrained systems of power.
I'm wondering how, how do you navigate [00:10:00] fear? And what have you learned about moving forward despite uncertainty?
[00:10:06] Neema Namadamu: Oh, that is big questions. You, you do. You survive without knowing you are survivor because you are in deep on the middle. When sometimes you tell like I'm telling you about war, about the conflict.
Sometimes I can't believe myself also, I can't believe sometimes you face that situations., You walk with fear every day. You say is, now is night. I don't know if it will be morning and when it is then you say, oh, I don't know if it will be night. You work on timing. That is the number one things. I I, these days.
I'm so shocked. I [00:11:00] don't want to hear news. I don't want to have my phone because I will hear bad news from my village, from my community, from my relative. You can see my posting on Facebook. You can read that story. You can see where I write on the Women International Women's Day. Look there.
[00:11:22] Liz Wiltzen: Okay. And we can find that just by searching Neema Namadamu on Facebook?
[00:11:27] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:11:28] Liz Wiltzen: And I will also link to that in the show notes. So it sounds like you're saying you just adapt to the uncertainty.
[00:11:36] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:11:38] Liz Wiltzen: I mean, it's just really remarkable to me how you do this because we as humans, we feel safer if we can feel some sense of certainty, even though life is inherently uncertain. We are always trying to make things certain.
But you live in a world and in an environment where it's just not even an option. And so [00:12:00] you're still, you're so creative and empowered as you move in the world and. I mean, you're saying I go to bed at night, I don't know if there's going to be a morning. I get up in the morning, I don't know if I'll still be alive at the end of the day.
And that is a level of uncertainty that most of us in the Western world, we have no idea what it's like to live with that kind of uncertainty. And yet you are this vibrant, joyful, exuberant, fully alive, hopeful... , I mean, I don't even know if that's the right word, but in the midst of this daily uncertainty, what have you learned about adapting to the truth that life is uncertain?
[00:12:45] Neema Namadamu: I really, I don't have other option. That is my life. I can't change. And I said, I don't have that power to change. And this is why maybe I have, [00:13:00] I can be sad, I can be crying or I can be happy, but is I don't have another option. That is my life. I, I learn how to enjoy every moment of my life. I learned how to, to really taking that moment.
This is a precious moment I have with you. I can be enjoying, I can say, this is wonderful. This is my moment. I really learned to be present, not to live my past or I live in, in like my head. No. I live, I enjoy, like I have interview with you. I live this moment, I'm with you. And tomorrow morning, I don't know. A
And some this question all the time, my colleagues we work with in in America, How can do tell us news? I say, I can't tell [00:14:00] you all news I have because is... I can maybe write book, and tomorrow the dynamic change. You can't plan. Yes, and it is that kind of, I live and I have to, to be present for those women, my dear sisters. Sometimes I ask help for them, some women who have babies in bush, some women with disability who can't run away.
Who can only say, I'm waiting to die. I can't run away. I don't have energy and I don't have a car. And we don't have, sometimes we don't have a road to go away. I don't have that option, but I enjoy that option I have, and I take opportunity. I do have [00:15:00] this job. I love it and I love it to share with the world, to know what is going on in DRC.
[00:15:08] Liz Wiltzen: And so you, you have been working in this system for all of your life, caring about ...you've been an advocate all of your life. I was so surprised to come to know that you had, you contracted polio at two years old, and so then you had to figure out how to navigate the world with a physical disability.
And when you were in high school, you started a radio show advocating on behalf of people with disabilities. When you were a teenager, you cared about these things. Has that always been just in you to advocate and to be socially active? Like how did this get born in you? [00:16:00]
[00:16:00] Neema Namadamu: My dear sister, I, this is like gift because when I born I was always, I have big mother.
My mom who loves me. Who care about me and I grown up with much love. She loves me. She care about me. I was the first born in my family, but I was always baby to my mother because I couldn't take myself to river, to wash myself. But my siblings can go to river, bring water and put on fire, and they can wash, hot water.
And my mother was really loves me. Sometimes when it's raining. My mother, she could, she can go to do this activity around the house and come and take me on her back, to go back home from school when it is raining. Is not [00:17:00] every day
[00:17:02] Liz Wiltzen: because it was harder for you to get around when it was wet?
[00:17:05] Neema Namadamu: Yes. , I didn't have crutches.
It was, I was walking with a stick and can slip so badly and sometimes when it is raining, other kid can run away and go fast and go home, be in in house. But me, I couldn't, but my mother was save me and go, bring me. And when she talk to me, say, everyone born by purpose. My purpose was this. When you discover why you are born, you don't have really, in your mind, you don't have barriers.
And if my, I raised in this big love and I don't know if I have enemy, I feel I don't have enemy because I see, I love everyone is why. When I see another person like me, another person with [00:18:00] disability or another woman, I love to see if she can have access to what I have. That is how I wish. I want to share that love.
I want to give because I have... You give what you have. That's love I have, and it is why I always speaking. Because I have education, I know to speak the language. I share these things. On behalf of millions and millions women and girls who doesn't have access to education, who doesn't know how to speak the language.
But I got that privilege and I did, that is not by making myself proud, but I wanted to say, I want around us, I want around the world, can know what is going on... through sisters sisterhood or friends or family. We are one human [00:19:00] being globally. Where we live in this planet, yeah. Is, this is me.
Advocacy, talking, sharing to connect people. That is my job.
[00:19:15] Liz Wiltzen: You, every time I've ever heard you speak about anything, it's obvious you are so deeply connected to beauty and to love and to possibility, and it's, it's like it doesn't matter what happens around you, you are so tethered to that in your being.
I know there's a story of your daughter when she was 25, was beaten by Congolese. Soldiers can you just share with us what happened when that experience unfolded for you, how you responded?
[00:19:56] Neema Namadamu: We was neighbors with colonel, with the [00:20:00] soldiers, and my daughter went out to buy time to put on my phone.
It was around seven night. They got her. Maybe it was going to rape. I don't know. They didn't rape her, but they beat her. And when she come back home, I was thinking, what I'm going to do? And I went in the morning, I went to meet soldier, I went to Colonel. I say, my dear Colonel, you supposed to give us a security.
You're supposed to protect us, but look where your soldier did. And he said, oh, mama Neema sorry, sorry, sorry. The other military came and told me they beat that guys in the compound, but everyone say Mama Neema, sorry. And I, I forgive them and they come to, again, my house and sometimes they come asking food or whatever.
And I give, [00:21:00] I really, um, I don't. Keep like, oh, I wanted to venge, and to venge is not solution, and is not love. Those young people is, how I say is the system. But the young people, they are military, they don't give good salaries and sometimes they have drugs. And is is, I can't put those blaming or those problem to young soldiers, but it is on systems. Yes.
[00:21:35] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. But being able to make that distinction is something that most people don't do. It feels like you are you can see the goodness of the human in the midst of their atrocious acts. You can see both. You can see both at the same time. For you, it's not one or the [00:22:00] other.
They're either a terrible person or they're a good person. It, it's like you see, you see forces acting on them that have them not act out of their goodness, but you still see the goodness.
[00:22:15] Neema Namadamu: Yes. And sometimes really, when I am in trouble moment, I. I always look solution, how I can do this, how I can do that, how I can help?
Because I've been struggling maybe on this difficulty, my, my life to walk with the stick all my life. I got my first crutches in 2007 when I went to, on a mission to work in South Africa.
[00:22:47] Liz Wiltzen: How old were you then?
[00:22:49] Neema Namadamu: I was maybe in the forties.
[00:22:53] Liz Wiltzen: You walked with a stick until you were in your forties, and that's when you first got crutches?
[00:22:59] Neema Namadamu: [00:23:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.
[00:23:03] Liz Wiltzen: Wow. And so, so you've said, because, I mean, I feel that now there's so much conflict between the humans and it's not it's not helping. , but we seem to be so caught in it. And you have said forgiveness is, it gives you peace and it gives you power. , and not like personal power, but some other kind of power. Can you speak to the power of forgiveness?
[00:23:37] Neema Namadamu: When you forgive in, in, in a human being inside himself, when you forgive something and you say, let forget, pass and continuing, that person will be struggling suffering because you know. You know what is the truth, and you [00:24:00] forgiving and you pass.
You continue. Yes. That is where I, I how I use. You have the power. Because when sometimes when you, you go to give something, sometimes I struggle to give someone, like they asking money. Oh my gosh, I don't have much. But after I give, I feel blessed and I feel like, wow, I did. But inside me, before I give, I struggle.
But when you give, really you have power. And when you forgive, you have power. But is the power in you. No one who can see that. Because before you make that decision is inside yourself, you are fighting inside you.
[00:24:49] Liz Wiltzen: What are you fighting?
[00:24:52] Neema Namadamu: Sometimes you want to make good, but bad is coming for to say, don't give. This person is this,
he [00:25:00] show you two things. But for me, I decide, and I teach myself, not to see bad things. No. I, because I have to love that things, to love that person. Not to see always negative.
[00:25:17] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. I'm getting it now. I'm getting the peace and the power that you're talking about. Because it's, it's a shift in your own being of, is the world a good place or a bad place?
[00:25:32] Neema Namadamu: Yes. Yes. Because every world is depending how you see yourself, not other people telling you. The world you lives, it can beat paradise or it can be hell. It is depend on you, how you understand, how you are satisfactions and how you feel. Some people who feel, oh, I'm [00:26:00] horrible. I'm not beautiful. Oh, I'm handicapped.
Some people who are rich, and they become problem. Is how you see things.
[00:26:10] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And, and now I'm starting to understand why you are so incredibly courageous, but in this most confident, you have such a confident, courageous way about you, because I love, one of my favorite things that you say is, my job is to make noise and be a troublemaker.
[00:26:37] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:26:39] Liz Wiltzen: That requires, that requires courage and confidence.
[00:26:44] Neema Namadamu: Yes. I'm a little, I'm a nothing. I'm a mosquito. You understand what I mean? Right. A mosquito. But in that being a mosquito is small, but. I'm with [00:27:00] you without asking you, permission without respecting protocols.
This is not right.
[00:27:13] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah,
[00:27:14] Neema Namadamu: yes, this is not right, and that really, I don't know where it's come from to have that is to show human being, they are equal. Some people say "important people". We are all important and we are all vulnerable, and we are all human being. We have the right to be happy. We have the right to be sad.
We have right to enjoy, we have right to cry. But everyone, you can have any position, but those are things you have. We have the same functions. One time I went to Israel, I was having a training about [00:28:00] intergenerational trauma. I was talking with people from Belgium, Sweden and other people, and I see how, how people still suffering that intergenerational trauma between Jewish and Palestine.
And you see, if people can not forgive... I was telling people maybe these days I write story, I say, I'm the last generation to suffer. Yes. Not to, to give legacy of those intergenerational trauma, those intergenerational conflict, those intergenerational... this, and war, and what... but let's enjoy, let people enjoy this planet.
You know how, how to [00:29:00] give the message globally, let's not to give... let's give good legacy to our children, grandchildrens our, our new generations. That is where we want, that is where we want to, my dear sister. Is really sometimes Wow. If you see everything we have, why? Why fighting? Why struggle? Why hunger?
Why still today? Women having baby, giving life in bush.
[00:29:49] Liz Wiltzen: And why? Why? Like, why do you think we still have all of this struggle fighting
[00:29:58] Neema Namadamu: Human being, he [00:30:00] doesn't know how to enjoy this planet
[00:30:02] Liz Wiltzen: I mean, you just keep bringing it back. It's that simple, isn't it? Yes,
[00:30:09] Neema Namadamu: yes, yes.
People wanting. He, can, he seems like he can't enjoy himself. No. Because human being doesn't know how to enjoy this mother earth.
[00:30:28] Liz Wiltzen: So in your work with empowering women, what have you seen happens when women come together to rise? What's possible collectively, that isn't possible alone.
[00:30:43] Neema Namadamu: You feel energy.
You feel joy, you feel connected. You feel, I'm not different. For those women who, who will be raped physically and emotionally and [00:31:00] all belonging goes away. With me too, where I build the Center for Women, School for Kids. All this take away. I have a chance to... let me tell you a little story. When the conflict begin
I was with one my friends, he lives in, Los Angeles. He is a filmmaker. He was with me and the, the day I see tension was really already happening in my village in Itambo where we build our big center for women and the school. And next day we take flight back to Bukavo, and they told me, they put fire on my car ,and to organization. And there was so much cry that day.
It was my first time to cry. Very, very loud. [00:32:00] And he came, he was so afraid and he told me, please. We still have you, we are together. We, we will build that center with me. Neema, don't cry again. And I was quiet and relaxing listening to him. That was really wonderful. And for me, I, I don't have the bad memories because they destroy our center.
But the vision I have is ,we are going to rebuild. More beautiful. Not like was, but more beautiful. That is making me, when I see women together, when women writing and telling a story, sometimes we laugh, other times we cry. Other times we don't have words. Other times we don't have a way to do, but I share with them, I [00:33:00] have many women around the world.
I share our stories. It is not only Neema's story, it's whole thousand, millions of women in Congo. Who didn't have a possibility or opportunity to get education, to get to speak different language, to get to, to visit world, to see the world, to see different culture, and that's making world beautiful.
Beautifully. You know, that is amazing. When I speak English with you and when, when women meet together and we share. We say, we are not really fighting with men, we are fighting with system. That is the big, big, my job. Every day I talk to women, I say, you know, we love the men. We love our brothers.
They [00:34:00] don't know. You know, our, our, our kids, the men, we raised them, we grow up with them. We give life. But he can come to you telling these stories that positive things are coming from the meetings in Africa, or especially in the Congo. But Women supposed to be married, to have a baby, stay home, cooking for his family, providing all those kind...
but right now we don't have that foundation as a family. Men become, like useless because the conflict, they're fighting. They're not men. They don't take that responsibility because this war, this conflict become also... he doesn't have time to, to think about his family. It is women who think about the family.
And when women really meeting [00:35:00] together, they making actions. For example, they can be together today, will say, oh, you know, our neighbor lost his son, or his husband, or his daughter. You have together, because the one person individual, you can't make it. For example, we say, okay, I don't have $100.
Maybe I have five, and whole, this team, together, maybe we are 100 women, and everyone will give $1. And we take that as a group. When women make the action happen, they are building families. Psychologically and physically.
[00:35:46] Liz Wiltzen: And not just blood relative family, but the family of community.
[00:35:51] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:35:52] Liz Wiltzen: You said earlier that the system is the problem, and so do you see the way these men are [00:36:00] showing up, do you see this as how men are when they're caught in the system?
[00:36:08] Neema Namadamu: I think almost. All, many, they are caught in system, almost all, maybe around the world. Because the system is so long built and the system is only built by men.
[00:36:25] Liz Wiltzen: So specifically with Hero Women Rising. What role can men play in supporting women's liberation and equality? If a man's listening to this podcast right now and he doesn't want to be a pawn in the patriarchal system, at the mercy of the system, having just only to seek power and position, like if he actually wants the return to community and family that that you are advocating for, what can he do?
[00:36:58] Neema Namadamu: Okay. The [00:37:00] man who can listening to this broadcast, he can really come to us as, as himself. He want to build better world, better life, and is all men, they are welcome. And all those also who are in the system, they can try to building us, to support us, to lifting us. Because they have that capacity, I believe, and I'm sure with you, my dear sister, if men stand up, helping, pushing us, like the expression, if you see big man, is woman behind him.
Is, how would they say yes? And also let's do: if you see woman, is man behind it. I invite all men to be behind us, lifting us, [00:38:00] sharing us and love us. We need to be loved, we need to be supported, and we love them to supporting us. Really. They're welcome.
[00:38:12] Liz Wiltzen: That brings us to, because I feel like what you're naming, we haven't actually named it, but what we've been talking about is leadership. You lead with strength and vision and heart,
and I'm curious, how do you define leadership, and what do you believe the world needs more of from its leaders?
[00:38:35] Neema Namadamu: They're not different with us. Not at all. The way we want is they can know we are also human being. It can be men or women, or boy or girls. All human being deserve justice and [00:39:00] equality and good life and respect. Because now
again, that system making some, oh, you are black, you are white, you are rich, you are poor. But we are all human being and we deserve respect and love.
[00:39:22] Liz Wiltzen: Something that, you have said that I just think is such an important message right now, with what's happening with social media and with the world of influencers...you have said, impact is not measured by whether or not you are amassing followers...
this is, it's such a thing that people are chasing right now, to be an influencer and to amass followers, and, and you just so simply say, impact is not measured by that. It's whether or not you are inspiring leadership. [00:40:00]
[00:40:00] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:40:00] Liz Wiltzen: Because we don't want leaders and followers, which is what the influencer realm is a setup for.
[00:40:07] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:40:07] Liz Wiltzen: Leaders and followers. And you're saying, no, we need leaders. Only. Everybody be a leader. Like find your leadership. And with your, the foundation that you've created. Hero Women Rising.
[00:40:22] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:40:23] Liz Wiltzen: You are about helping young women. Become leaders.
[00:40:31] Neema Namadamu: Yes. Don't complain. You know, it is some people, oh, I didn't have success because such and such. Don't be complaining.
You understand what I mean?
[00:40:45] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. I didn't have success be I can't have success because of these obstacles is complaining. Yeah.
[00:40:53] Neema Namadamu: But for me is everyone. You can be leader. You lead your family, you lead [00:41:00] your marriage, you lead your kid, you lead... and all this. When you lead your family good, your neighbor will see.
And another neighbor, another neighbor, another neighbor.
And it's not only to be influencer, to say, oh, Neema I put on Instagram and is 10 million people see. No. For me, I'm not looking that. We are not only blessed people or smart people. Whole world is full of smart people. Everyone have talent.
Everyone can make it if, if you pushing them on, if you show them. If is is like you have babies, you know. Babies when is little, you see how magic women do to raise. If we can raise all women, we can raise all kids. This world will be magic.
[00:41:56] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. Yeah. I'm really making a [00:42:00] connection right now ,because I know a big part of your essential work is to, because in the DRC women are objectified, they are, minimized, they're marginalized, they're treated more as second rate citizen. And, and so one of your mandates is to empower women to feel their value, to feel their worth, to feel their mattering. And I'm just making a connection right now about how important not complaining is.
[00:42:41] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:42:41] Liz Wiltzen: Because when you're complaining, you're feeling like. I'm at the mercy of life.
But when you are, when you say, I'm not going to complain, I'm going to enjoy, you start to feel that you are someone who deserves to enjoy life.
[00:42:59] Neema Namadamu: [00:43:00] Yes.
[00:43:00] Liz Wiltzen: Who gets to have the goodness of life happening for you. And that imparts a sense of your own personal value.
[00:43:09] Neema Namadamu: Yes. When sometimes I have many women who are my age,
they didn't go to school and, and they say, oh, because my parents didn't want me to go to school. They want me to be married. You know, complaining. That to complain, really is kind of, is, is is killing me. It's like you don't control yourself. You want every time people control you. It why you give reasons.
[00:43:46] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. Excuses.
[00:43:48] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:43:49] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. Yeah. Complaining and excuses are kind of in the same camp. And what you're saying is, you're not in your own empowerment when you complain and give excuses. [00:44:00]
[00:44:00] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:44:00] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. And so you're passionate about not letting that stand. You're like, no, that is not okay for you to do that. Because you are so committed to connecting women to their mattering.
To their value.
[00:44:18] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
To power.
[00:44:21] Liz Wiltzen: To their power. Yeah. So how can we, who would love to support the work you're doing? Tell us about Hero Women Rising and tell us about what actually is helpful.
For you.
[00:44:33] Neema Namadamu: Oh, good. That's a good question. Thank you so much. Now we become professional and sometimes administration or professional stuff...
I like things happening organically like we are talking heart to heart. But let talk about this, the work. This is really good vision that come to me is to [00:45:00] empower women, to make leaders to impact new generation. In Hero Women Rising we have four areas. One is education. We have a school in IDP camp in Itomba, and we have now 240 kids.
That goes from one to eight
[00:45:24] Liz Wiltzen: Grades one to eight?
[00:45:26] Neema Namadamu: Yes. Yes. And we have a program, Light of Hope. We pay school fees for orphans and also scholarship for girls, only girls, who finish secondary school who doesn't have way to go to university. We pay school fees for medicine and law.
We have also another program that we call SBS.
Training of women doing small business entrepreneurship, and right now we have a big grant from Redwood [00:46:00] Project from Los Angeles and we are almost end of our grant. We have four years, that is what they do, four years only. And we are looking for, right now, other partner who can jump in doing that gap.
Second, we are planting trees. We have our partner, she lives in California. Her name is Osprey Oleg. Is now 10 years we are partnering with her, and she's supporting us to have seeds, to have gloves, and we already planting more than 300,000 trees. From 2015 is when we begin that program.
Because when I back in my village, and I see how women goes so far to look for firewood to cook, and to have light in night. Because in my village we live [00:47:00] naturally. We don't have air conditioner, we don't have artificial light, is only with fire, with wood. And the women was going so far, four hours, five hours to look wood for cooking.
Is no life, if you don't have wood to cook. And I say, you live this big land and you go so far, why you can't plant these trees? How we, we bring? And our purpose to planting the trees was to maintain our forest. Itombo Forest .That is not to cut again our natural forest, because that is medicine inside.
It bring us good breath. Oxygen. And right now we are on the front line to fight with climate change. We want to plant 1 million trees. And with planting trees, we have also food security. We already planting [00:48:00] soy beans, vegetables, potato. We do also food security and then fighting malnutrition.
Another program we have is making pads for girls and adolescents, women who lives in remote area.
They don't have a pad. And long time ago, people not to go to school. If women, they are in period, they don't be in public places. But now we have school, we have a church, we have meetings, we have girls doing theater, club or to be in public place. And we are making pads you can use one for three years.
Those is the project we are doing. And if you wanted to know more about what we do, you can go www hero women rising.org and you can see our website. And [00:49:00] please share. Everywhere you are in the world, you are welcome to support, to contribute. That will be wonderful. And your donation is welcome. We need your talking about our work and be our ambassador, to share with other people and to enjoy the connection, and to be together.
[00:49:22] Liz Wiltzen: Thank you. Thank you for laying that out. And you are so clear, your word would be mainstreaming, but like bringing into the fore women with disabilities, women who are marginalized, empowering them can impact the collective heart and soundness of society. This is where a connection is broken that you're wiring together. This isn't just about the women, this is about the heart of society.
[00:49:56] Neema Namadamu: Yes.
[00:49:57] Liz Wiltzen: The societies that we live in are [00:50:00] so imbalanced right now in this patriarchal culture where, certainly in many, many places, there are men in positions of power who are taking and abusing and not caring about the impact. And it's like you're just coming in from the complete other side of it and pushing into the space
saying, empowered women, just this, is the difference that will bring us back into balance.
[00:50:32] Neema Namadamu: Yes, exactly. You are right. You are right. Bring women, give them understanding. For example, right now we are in this conflict zone, but when women can be wife, mother to that guy who's fighting, women can say, please calm down, don't have drugs [00:51:00] and let's raise this kid.
This is not normal way to be father.
[00:51:07] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. So an empowered woman can bring a lot of influence into the way her husband is operating in the world.
[00:51:17] Neema Namadamu: Yes. Exactly.
[00:51:20] Liz Wiltzen: And so, as we're wrapping up, I want to share something that happened in setting up this interview. I was so touched, because way back in 2013, I was in a leadership program and I had an idea, that did not come to fruition, but my idea was to do a series of portraits, painted portraits of women leaders in difficult places.
I had a name, Dark Corners, Bright Lights. I had a vision for this, but it didn't get off the ground. But at that time, and I don't remember how I heard of you, but somehow I heard of you back then and I reached out to you and we got onto [00:52:00] Skype. It wasn't even Zoom back then, we got onto Skype and had a wonderful hour long conversation, and so that was our first meeting.
That was like, so 2013, what is that?
[00:52:12] Neema Namadamu: 20 years ago
[00:52:13] Liz Wiltzen: 22 years ago. Okay. So, I had interviewed Cynthia Jus recently on the podcast about her project to bury sacred treasure vases around the earth in places in need of protection and healing. And she came to the Democratic Republic of the Congo to ...look at the smile on your face, you obviously have a great affection for Cynthia, she came to partner with you to bury an earth treasure vase in, her project to create peace points around the world.
So then I interview Cynthia, we talk about you, you're back in my heart and on my radar. And so I think I would love to interview you, and I [00:53:00] find an old email and I write you, but I don't tell you who I am or that we met before, anything like that.
I just said, oh, I've been following your work and would love to interview you.
And you wrote back and said, yes, I remember you from back in 2013. You had a heart for our work back then, and we talked about you doing a portrait. And I was astounded, Neema, that you would, all the things that have happened in your life in the last 22 years, all the people you have met, all the, everything. That you would remember that. I was so moved by that. So I just want to say thank you for that.
[00:53:42] Neema Namadamu: Thank my dear sister. Thank you.
[00:53:45] Liz Wiltzen: Yeah. Yeah. It was really, really lovely that we now have had a chance to connect it.
[00:53:51] Neema Namadamu: Connect. Yes. Welcome my dear sister Lisa. You were really rock to us and we want [00:54:00] you to continue your work.
I really, we are so happy to be Tracking Yes with you, and we'll see everything, how it can go together. Thank you.
[00:54:14] Liz Wiltzen: Thanks for joining us today, everyone. If you like this show, I'd so appreciate it if you'd subscribe and share it with people you think would love it. You can also become a patron by going to trackingyes.com and clicking on the Support the Show link in the top right of the navigation panel.
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If you're curious about coaching or have been thinking that you might want to work with me, now's a really great time.
I have some spots available in my practice and I offer a free sample session so we can have a conversation and see if it [00:55:00] feels like a good fit. And also due to a current client who is a generous benefactor, I have a partial scholarship available if you could benefit from some financial assistance.
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Talk to you next time, and in the meantime, have a great week and keep your compass lined up with yes.
