1
00:00:00,450 -->
00:00:01,890
Tim Staton: Hey, and welcome back to another episode.
2
00:00:01,950 -->
00:00:07,950
Have you ever lain awake at night wondering if the person you're becoming is truly the leader
3
00:00:08,070 -->
00:00:15,090
that your people deserve and need? Not the title. Not the power. The real one.
4
00:00:15,210 -->
00:00:19,650
The one who carries competence with courage, and courage with compassion.
5
00:00:20,070 -->
00:00:25,890
The one who doesn't just make decisions, but makes the ones that matter.
6
00:00:26,970 -->
00:00:31,650
In a world that keeps telling us to be faster, harder, and smarter, Dr.
7
00:00:32,130 -->
00:00:40,830
Fay Niewiadomski has spent 5 decades proving something rare and more powerful: that great leadership is chemistry.
8
00:00:41,610 -->
00:00:47,970
The rare, precious combination of skill, bravery, and genuine care that can transform not only
9
00:00:48,570 -->
00:00:51,450
organizations, but the people inside them.
10
00:00:51,930 -->
00:00:58,350
Her book, "Decisions That Matter: Rethink, Reimagine, and Reset Your Life," is not only another
11
00:00:58,710 -->
00:01:05,190
leadership manual; it's an invitation to stop repeating the same old story and finally become
12
00:01:05,250 -->
00:01:07,350
the leader you were meant to be.
13
00:01:07,770 -->
00:01:10,290
Because the world doesn't need more managers.
14
00:01:11,070 -->
00:01:16,410
It needs more of you: fully awake, fully human, and fully leading.
15
00:01:17,130 -->
00:01:18,810
So, Fay, welcome to the show.
16
00:01:21,810 -->
00:01:24,570
Tim Staton: This is Tim Staton with Tim Stating the Obvious.
17
00:01:24,810 -->
00:01:26,310
What is this podcast about?
18
00:01:26,430 -->
00:01:30,750
It's simple: you are entitled to great leadership everywhere you go.
19
00:01:30,810 -->
00:01:36,450
Whether it's your church, whether it's at work, whether it's at your house, you are entitled to great leadership.
20
00:01:36,510 -->
00:01:44,670
And so, in this podcast, we take leadership principles and theories and turn them into everyday, relatable, and usable advice.
21
00:01:45,270 -->
00:01:48,270
Disclaimer: And a quick Disclaimer: this show, process, or service by trademark, trademark manufacturer,
22
00:01:48,270 -->
00:01:50,730
or otherwise, does not necessarily constitute or imply the endorsement of anyone that I am employed
23
00:01:50,730 -->
00:01:51,630
by or favors them in representation.
24
00:01:51,750 -->
00:01:55,530
The views I express here in my show are my own expressed and do not necessarily state or reflect those of any employer.
25
00:01:55,770 -->
00:02:00,390
Tim Staton: Thank you. I'm glad you were able to come here and stop by and make this happen.
26
00:02:00,750 -->
00:02:04,770
And we all just heard your incredible intro and bio, but why don't you just tell us a little
27
00:02:04,770 -->
00:02:06,570
bit more about yourself in your own words?
28
00:02:07,470 -->
00:02:13,290
Fay Niewiadomski: Very briefly, Tim, it's been a career that has spanned over 4 decades.
29
00:02:14,550 -->
00:02:16,830
Two of those decades have been in education.
30
00:02:17,970 -->
00:02:22,170
I am a key founder of a university which is still going strong today.
31
00:02:22,950 -->
00:02:26,610
And the other two decades are in business. I'm an entrepreneur.
32
00:02:26,730 -->
00:02:28,470
I've set up my own businesses.
33
00:02:29,190 -->
00:02:36,270
And ICTN, International Consulting and Transformation Network, is the one that I have fallen
34
00:02:36,330 -->
00:02:38,790
in love with and continue to work with.
35
00:02:38,850 -->
00:02:41,250
And on the family side, I'm a parent.
36
00:02:41,490 -->
00:02:45,690
I have 2 boys, 2 girls, and 8 grandchildren.
37
00:02:45,930 -->
00:02:51,570
Three of them live in the United States, scattered all over California, New York, and Florida,
38
00:02:51,690 -->
00:02:53,550
and so I go there often to see them.
39
00:02:54,510 -->
00:03:01,890
I love the intergenerational connection because it keeps me plugged into what's going on in the world.
40
00:03:02,490 -->
00:03:03,990
I never want to retire.
41
00:03:03,990 -->
00:03:08,310
I don't believe in retirement because what am I retiring from? My life.
42
00:03:09,510 -->
00:03:15,090
So that's who I am: focusing on leadership, communication, and business emotional intelligence.
43
00:03:15,570 -->
00:03:18,330
Tim Staton: And I love the fact that you say you don't believe in retirement.
44
00:03:18,330 -->
00:03:19,530
Because I agree with you.
45
00:03:19,950 -->
00:03:22,410
You know, when you retire, you expire.
46
00:03:22,530 -->
00:03:25,170
So I don't plan on expiring anytime soon.
47
00:03:25,530 -->
00:03:30,270
And I know you don't either, with everything that you have going on, you know, your grandchildren.
48
00:03:30,390 -->
00:03:36,690
And with that intergenerational connection and relationship that you have, how do you feel that
49
00:03:36,870 -->
00:03:41,310
that has helped you in your leadership journey and in your leadership studies?
50
00:03:42,750 -->
00:03:45,870
Fay Niewiadomski: We underestimate what we learn from being a parent.
51
00:03:47,430 -->
00:03:55,770
And in my book, "Decisions That Matter," one of the things I say is that leadership starts at birth.
52
00:03:55,890 -->
00:03:57,450
And why do I say that?
53
00:03:57,510 -->
00:04:01,230
We model behaviors to our children.
54
00:04:01,290 -->
00:04:10,410
And even at the age when they're unable to express themselves in words, they pick up every motion, every breath, every action.
55
00:04:10,590 -->
00:04:13,530
And as human beings, we are mimetic creatures.
56
00:04:13,650 -->
00:04:16,230
We copy and model behavior.
57
00:04:16,590 -->
00:04:23,790
And so the behavior we model, we have, in a way, transmitted to another generation, for better or for worse.
58
00:04:24,510 -->
00:04:29,550
So leadership permeates every aspect of our life.
59
00:04:29,610 -->
00:04:37,470
And when we enable our children to understand that the foundation of their success is self-leadership,
60
00:04:37,530 -->
00:04:43,710
self-direction, understanding how to take control of their lives, and not to become chronic
61
00:04:43,950 -->
00:04:54,630
victims complaining or looking for someone to give them, you know, a leg up, or that they feel
62
00:04:54,990 -->
00:04:56,550
that they can't do it by themselves.
63
00:04:56,670 -->
00:05:00,090
I think it's really important for us to.
64
00:05:00,270 -->
00:05:04,770
It doesn't mean that we don't cooperate and collaborate with other people, just like we need
65
00:05:04,770 -->
00:05:06,030
to do in a family.
66
00:05:06,690 -->
00:05:13,950
But at work, in business, when you are the leader, if you can get the commitment of the people
67
00:05:14,310 -->
00:05:21,570
around you, if they are willing to go the extra mile together with you, not for you, but together
68
00:05:21,690 -->
00:05:24,570
with you, you accomplish something extraordinary.
69
00:05:25,710 -->
00:05:32,250
Tim Staton: Absolutely. And I get a sense by talking to you, we both kind of believe that leadership isn't
70
00:05:32,250 -->
00:05:37,110
something that you do, it's who you are, and it's who you become.
71
00:05:37,350 -->
00:05:43,350
And when did you get this first sense of, leadership is more of who you are and becoming than what you do?
72
00:05:44,130 -->
00:05:50,010
Fay Niewiadomski: I was always somehow nominated, elected, found myself in leadership roles.
73
00:05:50,250 -->
00:05:53,610
And I never, you know, paid much attention to that.
74
00:05:53,610 -->
00:05:55,470
I didn't fight for those roles.
75
00:05:55,590 -->
00:05:58,290
It wasn't, you know, some kind of an election or something.
76
00:05:58,350 -->
00:06:00,150
It's just something that happened naturally.
77
00:06:00,750 -->
00:06:09,390
And the research has recently confirmed that about 10% of a population are natural leaders.
78
00:06:10,050 -->
00:06:12,930
I believe I fall into that category.
79
00:06:12,990 -->
00:06:15,990
But 20% can learn what leadership is.
80
00:06:16,890 -->
00:06:23,550
And other people, some of them don't want to be leaders, but they can be very, very good at what they do.
81
00:06:23,550 -->
00:06:25,950
It doesn't, we don't have to be a leader.
82
00:06:26,430 -->
00:06:29,550
Because to me, leadership means responsibility.
83
00:06:30,210 -->
00:06:37,050
It means lifelong learning and striving to maintain your competence level so it is abreast of
84
00:06:37,050 -->
00:06:39,750
the latest technology, the latest research.
85
00:06:39,810 -->
00:06:41,670
So you can't stop learning.
86
00:06:42,450 -->
00:06:49,710
And it's, no matter how much you know, if you don't have the courage to practice and to choose
87
00:06:50,130 -->
00:06:58,290
and to act in line with what you know to be for the benefit of yourself and those in your circle,
88
00:06:58,770 -->
00:07:00,390
then you're not acting as a leader.
89
00:07:00,510 -->
00:07:03,990
You're acting quite selfishly and looking only for personal gratification.
90
00:07:04,590 -->
00:07:10,410
And the third piece, which I think is underestimated and misunderstood, is compassion.
91
00:07:11,550 -->
00:07:17,190
Recognizing our humanity, being forgiving to ourselves, knowing that we're not perfect, and
92
00:07:17,430 -->
00:07:24,270
extending that same privilege to the people we work with, helping them become the best they
93
00:07:24,510 -->
00:07:29,970
can, rather than setting ourselves up as judges with biases and prejudices.
94
00:07:31,350 -->
00:07:36,390
So it's a big combination of many things.
95
00:07:36,510 -->
00:07:37,830
And it does not end.
96
00:07:37,890 -->
00:07:45,390
It's a lifelong journey of curiosity and exploration and discovery and openness to the fact
97
00:07:45,390 -->
00:07:52,170
that you can learn from every encounter in your life, whether it's a good one or a bad one,
98
00:07:52,170 -->
00:08:02,730
whether it's from someone who is a 5-year-old or someone who is illiterate but very smart, depending on how you listen.
99
00:08:02,850 -->
00:08:04,950
If you listen without the filters, you learn.
100
00:08:05,790 -->
00:08:11,250
Tim Staton: Absolutely. So I want to break down a little bit and unpack what you've talked about.
101
00:08:11,250 -->
00:08:14,370
Because you've talked about a lot in just a very short time.
102
00:08:14,490 -->
00:08:17,610
Let's back up to what you said about responsibility and accountability.
103
00:08:18,210 -->
00:08:25,050
Often today, we see too many headlines about people shirking responsibility, blaming other people,
104
00:08:25,110 -->
00:08:29,550
and not being accountable for their actions or their organization's actions.
105
00:08:30,030 -->
00:08:37,470
Where do you think that we've kind of lost the art or the science of taking responsibility and accountability?
106
00:08:37,590 -->
00:08:42,330
And how can we reinstill that back into who we are as people?
107
00:08:43,350 -->
00:08:46,590
Fay Niewiadomski: It's, the answer is complicated and multi-layered.
108
00:08:47,430 -->
00:08:50,130
Because it's how we view ourselves.
109
00:08:50,970 -->
00:09:00,150
The things that we attribute to our own identity, who we are, what we think of ourselves, what
110
00:09:00,210 -->
00:09:02,250
our needs are, what our comfort zone is.
111
00:09:02,850 -->
00:09:06,510
So let me just take, bring it down to a practical level.
112
00:09:07,410 -->
00:09:13,950
Let's say that you are someone for whom certainty is a very important part of your life.
113
00:09:14,010 -->
00:09:19,470
You want to live in an environment that's predictable, where you feel you are in control, and
114
00:09:19,470 -->
00:09:22,170
you don't want to get out of those boundaries.
115
00:09:23,370 -->
00:09:27,630
So you're someone who lives in a rather small world.
116
00:09:27,690 -->
00:09:34,770
And when things go wrong in a world where you want to be in control, your reaction is to blame
117
00:09:35,010 -->
00:09:41,670
other people, to say, it's not because of me, because my world is under control.
118
00:09:41,970 -->
00:09:48,210
I live within those boundaries, and what goes wrong outside of it is because of somebody else's action.
119
00:09:49,710 -->
00:09:55,890
To step out of that boundary, to step out of that small boundary means stepping out of a comfort
120
00:09:56,130 -->
00:10:01,890
zone that you have restricted yourself in, and going into the second zone, which is fear.
121
00:10:02,670 -->
00:10:09,990
The fear zone is when we need to face ourselves and recognize that we're not perfect, that we
122
00:10:10,170 -->
00:10:16,350
can make mistakes, and that to face those mistakes, we need to take responsibility and hold
123
00:10:16,590 -->
00:10:20,130
ourselves accountable rather than pointing the finger of blame.
124
00:10:20,730 -->
00:10:26,430
Now, if you're someone who doesn't have the willingness and the courage to go through that fear
125
00:10:26,550 -->
00:10:35,910
zone, you make a U-turn and you go back to that small world where you practice victimhood, judgment, and blame of others.
126
00:10:36,750 -->
00:10:43,290
But if you can cross that barrier of fear and go to the next level, which is the learning zone,
127
00:10:43,890 -->
00:10:46,650
you know, as a human being, we have a superpower.
128
00:10:46,890 -->
00:10:55,290
And that superpower is the ability to learn and grow, the curiosity, the gift of neuroplasticity,
129
00:10:55,350 -->
00:10:59,910
which means we can learn for as long as we're alive and we're willing to do so.
130
00:11:01,350 -->
00:11:09,870
Going into that zone, as you explore deeper and deeper levels of your identity, Tim, you begin
131
00:11:10,050 -->
00:11:18,390
to recognize that there are goals, that there are aspirations, that there are dreams that you aspire to achieve.
132
00:11:19,650 -->
00:11:27,690
And when you get into that learning zone, you begin to grow as a human being and move into the
133
00:11:27,990 -->
00:11:36,570
final zone, which is the growth zone, where you recognize that there is no limit to how much
134
00:11:36,690 -->
00:11:39,330
you can learn and grow and contribute.
135
00:11:39,750 -->
00:11:46,770
And that's so important to maintaining mental agility, to maintaining emotional equilibrium,
136
00:11:47,670 -->
00:11:55,410
and to take responsibility for shaping ourselves into the best version of ourselves that is possible.
137
00:11:55,590 -->
00:11:57,450
So it's a long journey.
138
00:11:57,510 -->
00:12:03,930
And I, the first journey in my leadership program is called My Personal Odyssey.
139
00:12:04,710 -->
00:12:13,230
And I've called it Odyssey because it's fashioned on the journey of Odysseus, a renowned brave
140
00:12:13,410 -->
00:12:20,430
warrior who was able to go through all the various challenges that he did in his life, you know,
141
00:12:21,090 -->
00:12:30,150
facing difficulty, facing death, facing potential disloyalty from a team, or personal failure.
142
00:12:30,210 -->
00:12:32,490
And I have lived through a 15-year war.
143
00:12:32,550 -->
00:12:39,510
I know what it's like to look death in the eye and to understand that you live your life like
144
00:12:39,570 -->
00:12:41,070
there's not going to be a tomorrow.
145
00:12:42,870 -->
00:12:51,450
That certainly, you know, kind of bolsters your willingness to take calculated risks and to
146
00:12:51,570 -->
00:12:59,730
do things that would be fulfilling and satisfying not only to you but the people towards whom you feel responsibility.
147
00:13:00,330 -->
00:13:04,830
Tim Staton: Absolutely. And I love how you put that so eloquently.
148
00:13:05,130 -->
00:13:09,750
And it reminded me of the learning portion that you talked about.
149
00:13:09,750 -->
00:13:11,610
And I want to tease that out a little bit more.
150
00:13:11,610 -->
00:13:15,510
Because we talked about responsibility, the lifelong learning and growth.
151
00:13:15,690 -->
00:13:23,250
How can we get us into a spot of going, you know what, I need to grow, and I continuously need
152
00:13:23,310 -->
00:13:29,850
to learn, but on multiple different levels, and reinstill that curiosity back into us, not just
153
00:13:30,030 -->
00:13:35,910
like for curiosity of how things work, but for the inspiration on a spiritual level as well,
154
00:13:36,630 -->
00:13:43,170
you know, of how the world works around us and how the sky moves and music and art.
155
00:13:43,470 -->
00:13:44,970
Where do you think we lost that?
156
00:13:44,970 -->
00:13:46,170
And how can we get that back?
157
00:13:46,770 -->
00:13:54,810
Fay Niewiadomski: When we live a life of drudgery and survival, when we don't have time to enjoy the sunshine,
158
00:13:54,870 -->
00:14:02,070
when we don't have time to stop and smell a rose, we don't have time for that because we have
159
00:14:02,310 -->
00:14:07,230
put other things first, things that we call survival.
160
00:14:07,290 -->
00:14:13,050
And unfortunately, we do live in a world that is very challenging.
161
00:14:15,270 -->
00:14:24,810
The, if you'd go back and research what education was and how it started, it was a command-and-control
162
00:14:25,050 -->
00:14:36,270
process to create and deliver populations who were obedient and compliant and could follow processes in a disciplined way.
163
00:14:36,450 -->
00:14:42,990
And that was a requirement for the Industrial Revolution. It was a requirement.
164
00:14:43,170 -->
00:14:48,450
So the minute you have obedience and compliance, and you're looking at that narrow focus in
165
00:14:48,450 -->
00:14:55,170
front of you, you've lost the 360 view of your world.
166
00:14:55,230 -->
00:15:04,950
And the exhaustion of constantly doing and trying to get ahead of, you know, you're living by the clock.
167
00:15:05,010 -->
00:15:12,510
You have to do this by this time, by then, by this season. You lose your identity.
168
00:15:12,630 -->
00:15:13,890
You forget who you are.
169
00:15:13,950 -->
00:15:22,830
You become a machine, a human machine, living a life just to survive.
170
00:15:23,790 -->
00:15:25,170
And that is not a life.
171
00:15:26,310 -->
00:15:31,830
It doesn't mean that wealth doesn't necessarily bring happiness.
172
00:15:31,890 -->
00:15:37,170
I've seen people who have a lot of wealth. I've worked with them.
173
00:15:37,290 -->
00:15:43,950
And wealth can also bring fear because now you never know which relationship is a genuine one
174
00:15:44,130 -->
00:15:46,830
and which relationship is a convenient one.
175
00:15:48,030 -->
00:15:52,470
You worry about your children and their safety because they could be kidnapped for ransom.
176
00:15:53,430 -->
00:15:55,290
You yourself could become a target.
177
00:15:55,350 -->
00:15:59,370
So it's not a straightforward black-and-white thing.
178
00:15:59,970 -->
00:16:04,770
And I believe the key is giving ourselves time.
179
00:16:05,010 -->
00:16:10,950
And this is something I often ask my clients to take a week off from everything.
180
00:16:11,910 -->
00:16:16,950
And let's find out who you really are. What are your values?
181
00:16:17,010 -->
00:16:21,930
Because those, at the deepest level, inform all our unconscious decisions.
182
00:16:23,070 -->
00:16:25,770
What is the hierarchy of your human needs?
183
00:16:25,830 -->
00:16:33,150
What matters to you more? Variety or certainty? Love or power?
184
00:16:33,690 -->
00:16:39,330
What are the beliefs that you have adopted along the journey of your life through education,
185
00:16:39,450 -->
00:16:44,850
through your belief system, through your socialization, your family, your culture?
186
00:16:44,970 -->
00:16:52,530
And what are those unconscious rules that you no longer see and you accept as reality or as,
187
00:16:52,530 -->
00:16:54,390
you know, isn't that the way things are?
188
00:16:54,510 -->
00:16:56,910
Isn't that the way they should be?
189
00:16:57,090 -->
00:17:08,610
So not stopping long enough to take that deep dive into your identity because that is what we live and die for.
190
00:17:08,730 -->
00:17:16,350
But when we don't know it, we die a kind of anonymous and amorphous death, never having discovered
191
00:17:16,470 -->
00:17:23,970
who we are, never having discovered what gift we're meant to offer to the world and to the people we interact with.
192
00:17:24,810 -->
00:17:26,790
And we don't take the time to do that.
193
00:17:27,510 -->
00:17:33,210
Tim Staton: Yes. And I hope that people listening and watching this do not die that kind of death and that
194
00:17:33,270 -->
00:17:40,290
we get back to where we need to be and have life in us and life and have it abundantly.
195
00:17:40,530 -->
00:17:45,210
And when you were talking about how we're programming machines and robots, and you're like,
196
00:17:45,210 -->
00:17:49,110
you have to achieve certain things by a certain date and certain time, like you're getting kids
197
00:17:49,290 -->
00:17:51,990
into school by like five, six, seven years old.
198
00:17:52,110 -->
00:17:54,150
You got to graduate high school by a certain time.
199
00:17:54,210 -->
00:17:56,070
You got to get into college by a certain time.
200
00:17:56,190 -->
00:18:01,530
And everything is programmed in to create a machine that produces something else.
201
00:18:02,010 -->
00:18:03,870
And you're absolutely right on that.
202
00:18:03,990 -->
00:18:14,070
And when you put it that way, with the way education is supposed to be, how do we get back to the curiosity?
203
00:18:14,070 -->
00:18:19,290
Because when we talk about education, I think that we're not talking about like you go to a
204
00:18:19,710 -->
00:18:24,990
university and you attend a course and you get some type of paper that says you achieve something.
205
00:18:25,470 -->
00:18:27,330
Education is far deeper than that.
206
00:18:27,330 -->
00:18:29,070
Can you explain what you mean?
207
00:18:29,490 -->
00:18:32,970
Fay Niewiadomski: I can give a number of examples that enrich our lives.
208
00:18:33,990 -->
00:18:42,930
A nature walk, going into the forest, the woods, the seaside, and taking your time to look at
209
00:18:43,050 -->
00:18:49,470
the insects and the sand and the trees and the shape of the leaves and the smells.
210
00:18:49,590 -->
00:18:57,870
And, you know, to take in the full sensory experience of what it is to go into nature and pay
211
00:18:57,930 -->
00:19:05,430
attention to what's outside of you, to become, to develop what I call sensory acuity.
212
00:19:06,630 -->
00:19:13,110
Your eyes, your ears, your nose, all the senses you have, your skin, feeling what it's like
213
00:19:13,170 -->
00:19:20,850
to be alive in a natural setting and becoming observant of what's in front of you, around you, behind you.
214
00:19:21,870 -->
00:19:28,950
Traveling, visiting different countries out of the tourist circuit, you know, getting on the
215
00:19:29,190 -->
00:19:34,950
trains and going from one city to the next, just the way like people who live in that country
216
00:19:35,490 -->
00:19:42,690
would travel, having enough curiosity and enough courage to actually reach out and speak to
217
00:19:42,810 -->
00:19:46,230
people in a different culture. How do they think?
218
00:19:46,290 -->
00:19:47,610
Why do they think that way?
219
00:19:47,610 -->
00:19:52,290
What does it mean when you say you have succeeded?
220
00:19:52,290 -->
00:19:56,190
What is success by your cultural standards?
221
00:19:56,250 -->
00:20:01,350
What are you looking for? That is curiosity.
222
00:20:02,370 -->
00:20:09,810
Learning some art from a scientist, learn something artistic, whatever that thing that attracts
223
00:20:09,870 -->
00:20:17,430
you, whether it's painting or writing or sculpture or maybe even just learning to repair things.
224
00:20:17,610 -->
00:20:25,830
That kind of curiosity that gives us a more rounded experience of life.
225
00:20:25,890 -->
00:20:30,210
When I said intergenerational, I really meant intergenerational.
226
00:20:30,570 -->
00:20:35,190
I am very proud of the fact that I can actually speak to my grandchildren.
227
00:20:36,030 -->
00:20:43,170
And they range from 22 all the way down to 11.
228
00:20:43,290 -->
00:20:51,210
And when my own children were going through university and doing their PhDs, we were able to have conversations.
229
00:20:51,270 -->
00:20:54,570
We were able to talk about their research.
230
00:20:54,630 -->
00:21:03,090
To have that conversation, it means shutting down your brain in terms of living inside your
231
00:21:03,270 -->
00:21:12,930
head and looking outside into that person's eyes and watching their demeanor and asking them
232
00:21:13,770 -->
00:21:17,190
intentional questions and actually listening to the answer.
233
00:21:18,270 -->
00:21:22,950
You know, what is it that you like most about going to school?
234
00:21:23,670 -->
00:21:25,110
What do you hate most? Why?
235
00:21:25,170 -->
00:21:26,250
Why don't you like that?
236
00:21:26,310 -->
00:21:28,350
What is it that upsets you about it?
237
00:21:29,130 -->
00:21:36,630
And do you think having those conversations and listening, not preaching to somebody and say,
238
00:21:36,690 -->
00:21:44,250
oh, you should be doing this, but genuinely listening to them and how they analyze things, that's how we learn.
239
00:21:44,310 -->
00:21:50,790
The same applies in a leadership setting at work, where probably the least listening takes place
240
00:21:51,990 -->
00:21:59,790
because as a leader, we have been given a kind of a prototype of who a leader is.
241
00:21:59,970 -->
00:22:01,710
You know, you need to be this alpha.
242
00:22:02,310 -->
00:22:06,150
You need to be this person who knows everything.
243
00:22:06,270 -->
00:22:07,890
You need to be strong.
244
00:22:08,010 -->
00:22:12,810
You need to be, you know, the biggest, baddest person in the ring.
245
00:22:13,890 -->
00:22:17,850
And you should never admit that you don't know something.
246
00:22:18,930 -->
00:22:25,890
And therefore, you pretend that you know and you give out judgments and you make statements
247
00:22:26,790 -->
00:22:32,850
and you shut people down whose opinions or questions make you uncomfortable.
248
00:22:33,930 -->
00:22:40,830
Those are things that happen regularly in businesses, in work.
249
00:22:40,890 -->
00:22:48,510
In one of my leadership programs, I have taken video sequences from two airline crashes, Tim.
250
00:22:49,530 -->
00:22:53,370
One is a Korean airline crash, which, you know, was a classic.
251
00:22:53,550 -->
00:23:00,510
And the other one was the Pan Am airline crash in Tenerife, which has become a classic in airline safety.
252
00:23:00,750 -->
00:23:07,470
And the reason I have taken those as examples and analyzed the human interaction between leader
253
00:23:07,530 -->
00:23:17,190
and follower in those videos is because it demonstrates how the judgment and emotions of a leader
254
00:23:17,250 -->
00:23:25,290
have the greatest impact on an organization, on a business, on a family, on a country, on a state, on the world.
255
00:23:25,410 -->
00:23:34,530
So in Korean culture, which is a high-power distance culture, the instruments were showing that something was wrong.
256
00:23:34,590 -->
00:23:41,850
And the co-pilot was trying to point that out, but the captain wouldn't listen to him.
257
00:23:41,910 -->
00:23:44,010
He just shut him down.
258
00:23:44,070 -->
00:23:52,290
And instead of persisting, he remained silent as the plane banked and crashed and lives were lost.
259
00:23:53,130 -->
00:23:59,250
So when you have that kind of self-imposed boundary, I can't challenge the leader.
260
00:24:00,270 -->
00:24:08,790
What is at play here is not just culture, but our thoughts and emotions that dictate the choices
261
00:24:08,850 -->
00:24:15,030
we make and the choices we make lead to the actions that we take and the results we get.
262
00:24:15,450 -->
00:24:22,530
So understanding that at that deep level how it works is truly important.
263
00:24:22,590 -->
00:24:32,070
In the Pan Am case, the captain was world-famous, you know, one of the most famous Dutch captains, completely different culture.
264
00:24:32,070 -->
00:24:33,330
It was a Western culture.
265
00:24:33,630 -->
00:24:37,770
But now this man wanted to get back for his daughter's 16th birthday.
266
00:24:38,190 -->
00:24:44,190
And he was very irritated that there was fog and they couldn't take off from the airport.
267
00:24:44,250 -->
00:24:53,970
And he shut down his co-pilot and kind of coerced him into saying, yes, yes, we're cleared for takeoff.
268
00:24:54,390 -->
00:24:59,670
And then two planes crashed into each other and 350 lives were lost.
269
00:25:01,290 -->
00:25:09,390
It's dramatic, but it was because of that arrogance, that hubris, that belief that I am world-famous, I know best.
270
00:25:09,570 -->
00:25:14,010
My irritation and my anger got in the way of clear vision.
271
00:25:15,090 -->
00:25:21,330
So when we talk about business emotional intelligence, we're not talking about soft skills.
272
00:25:21,630 -->
00:25:23,490
I really detest that label.
273
00:25:24,390 -->
00:25:27,750
These are the things that determine the course of history.
274
00:25:27,870 -->
00:25:32,970
These are the things that determine the success of a business, the cohesion of a family, or
275
00:25:33,150 -->
00:25:34,590
the success of a team.
276
00:25:35,910 -->
00:25:46,230
So understanding what's happening inside of you and outside of you and, you know, processing
277
00:25:46,290 -->
00:25:50,310
that in such a way that you calm your emotions.
278
00:25:50,370 -->
00:25:58,710
Emotional intelligence is not about letting people cry on your shoulder, which is one of the misinterpretations.
279
00:25:59,130 -->
00:26:05,670
It's about you understanding what's the turmoil happening in you and calming yourself and taking
280
00:26:06,150 -->
00:26:10,590
control of those emotions before you take action.
281
00:26:11,730 -->
00:26:18,390
In the story of the Odyssey, you know, Odysseus has his men tie him to the mast so he wouldn't
282
00:26:18,690 -->
00:26:22,230
be, you know, seduced by the song of the sirens.
283
00:26:24,150 -->
00:26:31,230
So knowing your limitations and knowing what risks you could be exposed to is important.
284
00:26:31,350 -->
00:26:34,350
Also, looking at what people around you are saying.
285
00:26:35,130 -->
00:26:41,910
If you're a strategic thinker, you want to go fast. You miss the details.
286
00:26:42,750 -->
00:26:45,810
You underestimate the complexity of the process.
287
00:26:46,050 -->
00:26:53,550
And you might find it very irritating when someone who is very detailed-oriented and granular
288
00:26:53,790 -->
00:27:00,570
and is working at the coal face, so to speak, asks you questions about, so how does this get done?
289
00:27:01,650 -->
00:27:08,670
And if you're arrogant, you dismiss them as being too stupid to understand your wonderful ideas.
290
00:27:10,230 -->
00:27:16,470
Instead of someone coming to you from a different perspective, from the perspective of implementation
291
00:27:17,250 -->
00:27:25,530
and execution, which require detail and understanding and calculation of risk and precision.
292
00:27:25,650 -->
00:27:34,470
So how could you not be a lifelong learner when there is so much that we need to learn about
293
00:27:34,770 -->
00:27:44,010
ourselves, about other people, about technology, about the world around us, about different generational perspective?
294
00:27:44,130 -->
00:27:49,230
We need several lifetimes to say that we're beginning to scratch the surface, you know?
295
00:27:50,130 -->
00:27:51,750
Tim Staton: Yeah, you are absolutely correct.
296
00:27:52,290 -->
00:27:53,490
Spot on in all of this.
297
00:27:53,670 -->
00:27:59,850
And for folks listening to this right now, go back and re-listen to what she just said, especially
298
00:28:00,030 -->
00:28:08,010
about what we really mean about emotional intelligence, understanding the turmoil going on inside and outside of us.
299
00:28:08,190 -->
00:28:13,110
And for a lot of folks watching this and listening, as I know, they're going into their first time into leadership roles.
300
00:28:13,710 -->
00:28:18,690
They're going into maybe their first time leading a team or managing a team.
301
00:28:18,750 -->
00:28:25,470
And that's incredibly important, just that minimal amount of self-awareness to have to understand that.
302
00:28:25,470 -->
00:28:27,210
So I really appreciate you sharing that.
303
00:28:27,570 -->
00:28:33,330
For the folks that are watching this and listening that are more senior, what advice would you have for them?
304
00:28:33,510 -->
00:28:38,670
Let's say they may have lost their way and became too rigid and put themselves in a small box.
305
00:28:39,150 -->
00:28:42,450
How can we maybe they're listening to you and they go, you know what?
306
00:28:42,630 -->
00:28:44,430
How do I fix this? Is it too late?
307
00:28:45,510 -->
00:28:49,530
Fay Niewiadomski: It's never too late. And I would like to leave them with two questions.
308
00:28:50,250 -->
00:28:57,870
And the first question would be, when is the last time you consciously and deliberately acquired
309
00:28:58,110 -->
00:29:03,330
a new skill or a new discipline? And write that down.
310
00:29:03,450 -->
00:29:08,250
And if you haven't done it, you're trying to hold on to a past that no longer exists.
311
00:29:09,930 -->
00:29:12,570
You're not keeping abreast of what's going on.
312
00:29:13,050 -->
00:29:18,090
And to earn the respect of your team, you need to keep abreast of what's going on.
313
00:29:18,150 -->
00:29:26,070
You need to understand if you're not reading at least one book a month, at least, you're not there.
314
00:29:27,390 -->
00:29:33,990
The medium that we consume information from affects our ability to think in depth.
315
00:29:33,990 -->
00:29:40,470
If you're listening to TV, radio, social media, you're getting sound bites. You're not getting depth.
316
00:29:42,150 -->
00:29:46,710
You know, you need to read because reading allows you to stop and reflect.
317
00:29:46,890 -->
00:29:56,850
And the second question I would ask them, when was the last time you were dead wrong about something? Write it down.
318
00:29:56,910 -->
00:30:00,390
I usually get uncomfortable silence when I ask those questions.
319
00:30:03,150 -->
00:30:09,870
Senior leaders have a skill that they underestimate and underdevelop.
320
00:30:09,990 -->
00:30:12,510
And that's the skill of intentional listening.
321
00:30:13,290 -->
00:30:17,790
I'm talking beyond so-called active listening.
322
00:30:18,810 -->
00:30:28,530
When somebody says, when you ask somebody a question and the answer you get is a yes, what does that yes really mean?
323
00:30:28,650 -->
00:30:32,070
Is it a yes of compliance and obedience?
324
00:30:32,130 -->
00:30:35,370
Is it a yes of understanding?
325
00:30:35,490 -->
00:30:42,390
Is it a yes for self-protection and for ending the conversation because you know it's not going
326
00:30:42,390 -->
00:30:47,010
to matter what you say because they're not listening to you? What does yes mean?
327
00:30:47,130 -->
00:30:54,690
And how do you probe that as a leader to find out what that yes meant?
328
00:30:54,810 -->
00:31:00,450
Because the worst thing that could happen is the yes of compliance and obedience because then
329
00:31:00,570 -->
00:31:02,850
you're missing a whole world of information.
330
00:31:04,050 -->
00:31:11,190
And I think senior leaders should learn how to say, you just said yes.
331
00:31:12,510 -->
00:31:15,630
Is there anything we should be concerned about?
332
00:31:15,750 -->
00:31:19,710
Do you see any possible risk or pitfall that we have overlooked?
333
00:31:19,770 -->
00:31:21,510
I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
334
00:31:22,770 -->
00:31:33,810
You know, creating what Amy Edmondson has coined as psychological safety is the greatest responsibility
335
00:31:33,870 -->
00:31:43,830
of senior leaders because they are making decisions that affect the lives of tens, hundreds, thousands, millions of people.
336
00:31:43,950 -->
00:31:51,630
And the greater your position and authority, the greater the impact your decision has on the lives of others.
337
00:31:52,350 -->
00:31:57,210
So what does psychological safety mean?
338
00:31:57,330 -->
00:32:06,930
It means that you feel confident enough to speak up, to tell the truth, to share the details,
339
00:32:07,470 -->
00:32:08,850
to present the bad news.
340
00:32:09,810 -->
00:32:19,110
And if a senior leader is only getting filtered, you know, sterilized information that lacks
341
00:32:19,110 -->
00:32:22,350
the detail, their decisions are going to be flawed.
342
00:32:23,670 -->
00:32:32,250
So I'll give you an example of research that was done in a hospital emergency area.
343
00:32:33,570 -->
00:32:40,530
Teams, they were doing team research and looking at team cohesion to see, you know, which teams were doing really well.
344
00:32:41,670 -->
00:32:54,990
And the teams that seemed to be having a perfect record were teams that were actually not as
345
00:32:55,650 -->
00:33:00,810
functional as the ones who were saying that, you know, we have difficulty.
346
00:33:01,290 -->
00:33:06,510
Why was this team having a perfect record? No incidents, no problems.
347
00:33:07,530 -->
00:33:09,210
The problems were being hidden.
348
00:33:10,470 -->
00:33:12,570
They were being not reported.
349
00:33:12,690 -->
00:33:14,790
They were simply being covered up.
350
00:33:14,850 -->
00:33:21,870
And the team that had more of a vibrant interaction were teams that were actually reporting
351
00:33:22,230 -->
00:33:26,970
their errors, reporting the mistakes, reporting the non-compliances.
352
00:33:27,570 -->
00:33:33,630
So if you are working in a hospital environment and critical information that affects life and
353
00:33:33,750 -->
00:33:40,590
death is not being reported because people fear retribution or people fear punishment, you as
354
00:33:40,770 -->
00:33:53,250
a leader do not have the data and the information and the analysis you need to make good judgments and effective decisions. So you're missing out.
355
00:33:53,970 -->
00:34:01,350
And every decision you make, you know, it's like a pebble dropped in a pond or a rock dropped in an ocean. It creates ripples.
356
00:34:02,730 -->
00:34:05,610
It impacts what's happening to people's lives.
357
00:34:06,030 -->
00:34:13,170
So not being in an environment where people feel confident and comfortable, not nurturing that
358
00:34:13,530 -->
00:34:19,830
psychologically safe environment where people can actually share their concerns, their fears.
359
00:34:21,090 -->
00:34:23,850
That's what brought Nokia down.
360
00:34:23,970 -->
00:34:32,970
Nokia was brought down by that because the business culture was one where people would not give
361
00:34:33,150 -->
00:34:36,870
any bad news to top management. No bad news.
362
00:34:37,590 -->
00:34:40,410
Tim Staton: Like the most indestructible phone ever.
363
00:34:41,070 -->
00:34:47,190
You know, but they had the most destructible culture because people would not share up.
364
00:34:47,370 -->
00:34:48,570
That just blows my mind.
365
00:34:49,410 -->
00:34:55,590
Fay Niewiadomski: Absolutely. And that is what destroys not just businesses, but families.
366
00:34:56,190 -->
00:34:59,730
And when I say intergenerational connection, do you know your children?
367
00:34:59,730 -->
00:35:00,930
Do you know your grandchildren?
368
00:35:00,930 -->
00:35:02,010
Do you know what they're doing?
369
00:35:02,190 -->
00:35:03,270
Do you know what they think?
370
00:35:03,330 -->
00:35:04,950
Do you know who their friends are?
371
00:35:05,370 -->
00:35:06,690
Do you know what their worries are?
372
00:35:06,690 -->
00:35:08,490
Do you know what they're experimenting with?
373
00:35:09,810 -->
00:35:18,630
And if you don't, because you're caught in that loop of working so hard for survival, you've
374
00:35:18,630 -->
00:35:24,690
just kind of given a bad deal to your family because you don't have time for them.
375
00:35:25,890 -->
00:35:33,870
Tim Staton: That's an amazing point. And I'm reflecting on my own self as well at that point of how well
376
00:35:34,050 -->
00:35:36,270
have I done that over the course of the year?
377
00:35:36,330 -->
00:35:40,770
So for people watching this and listening to this, kind of do some self-reflection on that and
378
00:35:41,250 -->
00:35:45,570
see how you've been doing, especially for the intergenerational part.
379
00:35:45,630 -->
00:35:48,450
Do you know all the different generations in your family?
380
00:35:48,750 -->
00:35:53,610
I'd be curious to know what you think about it or not, or just do a self-reflection and keep it to yourself.
381
00:35:54,210 -->
00:36:00,150
So Fay, I know that we're running short on time here, but is there anything that we didn't talk
382
00:36:00,210 -->
00:36:05,010
about that you're like, you know what, I really wish you would ask me this one question or we
383
00:36:05,070 -->
00:36:06,570
talked about this one subject?
384
00:36:07,770 -->
00:36:14,790
Fay Niewiadomski: Importance of communication. The importance of strategic leadership communication, where I do
385
00:36:14,910 -->
00:36:19,530
something called a business EQ profile, which is a scientifically validated tool.
386
00:36:20,070 -->
00:36:24,510
And we look at eight behaviors that predict success and failure at work.
387
00:36:24,510 -->
00:36:32,790
And those are decisiveness, motivation, influence, adaptability, conscientiousness, empathy, and stress resilience.
388
00:36:33,030 -->
00:36:36,630
And the takeaway is self-awareness.
389
00:36:37,530 -->
00:36:47,790
The place where people have tremendous lack is in influence, in flat organizations, in places
390
00:36:47,850 -->
00:36:56,850
where you don't have position authority or you don't have a title that gives you the right to tell people something.
391
00:36:57,090 -->
00:37:03,450
And they seem to, they have to comply, not because they agree with you, but because they don't want the consequences.
392
00:37:04,830 -->
00:37:13,470
Influence is the ability to enable people to engage with you and follow you willingly because
393
00:37:14,310 -->
00:37:16,350
they see that there is value in it.
394
00:37:16,350 -->
00:37:26,850
That relationship is one where they are persuaded to comply without being obliged, knowing that they can say no.
395
00:37:27,030 -->
00:37:29,370
That skill is in short supply.
396
00:37:29,970 -->
00:37:35,610
And the wonderful thing about it, though, is that influence is a learnable skill.
397
00:37:35,790 -->
00:37:42,330
How to communicate to people, how to understand who's in front of you, how to select the right
398
00:37:42,510 -->
00:37:44,910
words, how to pause at the right time.
399
00:37:45,030 -->
00:37:49,830
That is the energy that brings organizations together.
400
00:37:50,010 -->
00:37:51,810
It's not policies and procedures.
401
00:37:51,870 -->
00:37:53,490
It's not what's written on paper.
402
00:37:53,790 -->
00:37:59,430
It's how people bring it to life by the human interaction and the communication capabilities
403
00:37:59,550 -->
00:38:03,450
they have to bring people along the journey with them.
404
00:38:03,690 -->
00:38:07,170
That's a rare skill, very much lacking.
405
00:38:07,710 -->
00:38:12,150
The other thing that throws people out of shape is stress resilience.
406
00:38:13,350 -->
00:38:17,430
Stress resilience is about resilience and control.
407
00:38:17,550 -->
00:38:24,750
And when people lose control, they do things which they later regret or even feel ashamed of.
408
00:38:25,710 -->
00:38:32,790
Learning to manage your stress so that even if you are a brilliant, wonderful person, you don't
409
00:38:33,090 -->
00:38:36,150
destroy that by doing something you can't take back.
410
00:38:37,290 -->
00:38:41,310
Tim Staton: I can't think of any other way, better way to end this.
411
00:38:41,370 -->
00:38:47,070
And I'm not going to add anything to that other than ask you, besides going to the show notes,
412
00:38:47,190 -->
00:38:51,690
how could people reach out to you, find your books, and find your courses?
413
00:38:52,830 -->
00:38:57,030
Fay Niewiadomski: I would love for them to visit my website, ictn.com.
414
00:38:57,090 -->
00:39:05,310
And on it, they will find out a lot about what we do and how we do it, which is not AI produced. It's human produced.
415
00:39:06,510 -->
00:39:17,190
I would love for them to join me on LinkedIn, Fay Niewiadomski, LinkedIn. I have an Instagram. I have a Facebook.
416
00:39:17,850 -->
00:39:26,310
And my book is available on Amazon, Decisions That Matter: How to Rethink, Reimagine, and Reset Your Life.
417
00:39:26,610 -->
00:39:32,610
And I would love for people to read it because it's about how to get off the treadmill, stop
418
00:39:32,790 -->
00:39:38,610
being a hamster, start being a human, and, you know, find out who you are.
419
00:39:38,730 -->
00:39:41,250
You have control over that identity.
420
00:39:42,030 -->
00:39:43,470
You won't want to be a slave.
421
00:39:44,070 -->
00:39:51,810
Tim Staton: Absolutely. In a world that is AI dominated and we're lacking human connection, human authenticity,
422
00:39:52,170 -->
00:39:56,610
you know, I'm definitely going to include these in the show notes so people can go there and get to it.
423
00:39:56,610 -->
00:40:01,590
I know people are craving human connection and human authenticity as well.
424
00:40:01,770 -->
00:40:03,210
They don't want the machine stuff.
425
00:40:03,450 -->
00:40:05,850
So everyone listening and watching, go to that.
426
00:40:06,030 -->
00:40:10,590
Fay, I've had a great time talking to you and having a wonderful conversation.
427
00:40:10,650 -->
00:40:14,310
I know our listeners are having a great time listening to it as well.
428
00:40:14,490 -->
00:40:17,730
So thank you for stopping by and having a conversation with me today.
429
00:40:18,510 -->
00:40:20,190
Fay Niewiadomski: Thank you, Tim. The pleasure was mine.
430
00:40:21,570 -->
00:40:25,230
Tim Staton: As always, thank you for stopping by and checking out this episode and listening to it.
431
00:40:25,230 -->
00:40:26,550
I really hope that you enjoyed it.
432
00:40:26,610 -->
00:40:29,310
Before we go, I'd like to ask a favor of you if I could.
433
00:40:29,310 -->
00:40:33,930
If you could please share this episode with one or two people who you think might like this topic.
434
00:40:34,050 -->
00:40:38,070
If you haven't followed or subscribed on the platform that you're listening to and hit all the
435
00:40:38,250 -->
00:40:43,110
bells and icons and all the whistles so that you know that when we post another episode, you'll
436
00:40:43,110 -->
00:40:45,690
be alerted, please go ahead and do all that before you go.
437
00:40:45,750 -->
00:40:49,470
If you got some value out of this episode, please leave a review or a comment so we can help
438
00:40:49,590 -->
00:40:53,610
spread the show to other people who might be interested in the topics that we've talked about
439
00:40:53,850 -->
00:40:55,890
here today, but may not have found our show yet.
440
00:40:56,010 -->
00:40:57,450
Again, thanks for stopping by.
441
00:40:57,510 -->
00:40:59,490
I'm Tim Staton, State of the Obvious.
