Lucas Ingham: All right, hello everyone. Welcome to the win or lose podcast. I'm your host, Lucasingham. Today we are joined by half of the Cougar Prol podcast. We're supposed to get both halves. We're gonna get that figured out eventually. That'd be a fun time. But Greg Woods from the Spokesman Review, how you doing, Greg?
Greg: Good man, how are you?
Lucas Ingham: Good. Well, it's a win or lose podcast. I say this every week. We'd like to be here after wins, unfortunately. we're not. I'm back home on the West Side after an 0-2 trip to Pullman. Not exactly how I drew it up. the Cougs are going to Utah State on Friday. You're heading down to Logan tomorrow. just general thoughts and impressions from what we saw against Fresno State and kind of what that means, looking at looking into Utah State and all the everything that's gone on this week, obviously leading up to it.
Greg: Yeah, I mean I would love to have a a longer term perspective on like, you know, the last time they looked the way they do and this predates, you know, I mean you were probably like four or five years old the last time they looked like this and I was obviously like still, you know, maybe ten or eleven years old. So it's been a long time, I guess, is the point. And I don't even have the best perspective on, you know, how long it's been since they were looking like this, but but yeah, just I mean, I don't know, whatever word you want to use to describe the way their offense looked in that game. I mean the word I kept coming back to coming back coming back to in my stuff was like ghastly. I you thought about like a boy like there's just so many ways to describe the way they looked and it was like, you know I I mean you credit them for getting the field goal thing figured out so the Jack Stevens gets them on the board, but yeah, outside of that it's been really rough. the booze, I mean you were there on the press box, you heard the booze throughout most of the second half. I mean Most of what could go wrong has gone wrong for them, just in terms of the quarterback play, the running backs not really getting much run at all in the second half. Did they have five carries the entire second half on on Saturday? And, you know,
Lucas Ingham: I know. I know.
Greg: I don't think there's you know they definitely need to use those guys a lot more, but you know, when you're getting sacked five times you end up behind the chains. It's like you're gonna run a running a r a run on second and twenty, like, you know, there's just not a lot of like solutions f for where they're at now. But, you know, they're they're they're doing one with, you know, having Kirby take over play calling duty. So y you know, you gotta do what you gotta do. they had to make a big change for sure, and that was the one that at least the first one that, you know, had to kind of come into place. Whether they switch you know, switch up the quarterback on Saturday r you know, remains to be seen. I think there's distinct possibility of that happening, but I also would not be surprised if if Finneck was out there again. So a lot a lot still to to kind of Come with a place but not a promising start for sure.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, it's hard when you change the coordinator because in if you do the coordinator and the quarterback in the same week, then you're it's like too many variables, right? It's like how do you know, you know, if if Pinnac, you know, it's just like, how do you know which one's the problem, right? It's like when you're doing a science experiment
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Lucas Ingham: in class. Like you can't change two variables at one time. I mean, they might have to. I wanna go at this offense from so many different directions because like yeah, like you said, like in recent memory, you and Jamie both brought up the Stanford game with Cam Hoard. I was a student, thankfully, so I don't remember much of that second half. Trying to think of some other some other ones that w other ones that got thrown out there.
Greg: But even like that like that's the point. Like even in their like even in their worst offensive performances in in the last several years, like they at least scored a touchdown on offense.
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: You know, the Stanford game that you brought up, Wyoming in twenty f twenty four.
Lucas Ingham: Oof. Yeah, that was
Greg: I'm tr I'm trying to think of of a I mean even like North Texas last year where they got boat raced. I mean, they at least scored like a garbage time touchdown when Zevi. No, I know, I know, I know.
Lucas Ingham: Right. But that's cause all the interceptions and stuff, like those are like yeah.
Greg: I c I I know that was kind of an outlier, but I'm saying that like even in the like the worst, like most forgettable games, they've at least managed to put like an of a touchdown on the board on offense. So for that not to come to pass on this one. Obviously like you get to the second half, you get to the fourth quarter, it's like a whatever. Like they look terrible. But, you know, you would I for their sake they would have liked to come away with at least like something that resembles something to build off of, but
Lucas Ingham: Well, there was never really garbage time because they were kinda in the game until there was like with four minutes left miraculously. I mean, like it was like you said, yeah,
Greg: Theoretically they were.
Lucas Ingham: theoretically, but I mean you said in I think it it was you or Jamie in the press box that like it's a borderline, like heroic effort from the defense for them to be even remotely competitive in this game. The the question I wanted to start with with you, I mean, you've seen them through fall camp, and there was kind of a tweet that resurfaced from one of the last skirmishes of fall camp Matt Miller said the standard wasn't good enough, blah, blah, blah. You've seen them through Fall Camp, you've seen them through five games. I want you to try and describe what you think they're trying to accomplish on offense. What what do they want their identity to be? Right. Yeah, a hundred percent.
Greg: I don't know if they know that. I don't know if they know the answer to that question, which is the bigger issue for them. I mean, I don't know, man. I mean, it it really, you know, for as much and that's and and I said this on our podcast too, but like for them to or if I'm sorry, for Kirby to change up the play callers duties after this game is a little bit ironic because for all the times that you felt like or at least I felt like the play calling was an issue, or at least the biggest issue in the game, the first night game here was not really did not fall in that category. I thought it
Lucas Ingham: No.
Greg: was just top to bottom lack of execution from the snap mishap that resulted in a fumble to the interception to you know some of the I guess there was some of the play con stuff with the running backs really getting there, but again, like you end up with sacks, you end up with negative plays, you end up with receivers running routes short of the sticks on third down, and it's like what could a better play call have done in a lot of these situations if the guys are just not executing? it sounds cliche, but that's a lot of what's a lot of what you saw. So
Lucas Ingham: No, so do you I I I'm kinda curious because I agree with you. I think the first two games the play calling left a lot to be desired. Like you think back to the four straight runs against Kansas State and just not putting your people in position to like and like Pinnacle's tasked with so much with the defensive lines, but like these Arizona and Fresno State games, I look at there was a play, it was five fifty-six to go in the first quarter, and they had a second and short. It's the one where Leaf calls out the free rusher and and you put it in your little package on your spokesman review
Greg: yeah, yeah.
Lucas Ingham: too. And He has three receivers open. He has BG on the left. He has I think it's blood coming across the middle. And he has Woods in the flat, you know, one on one with the D B, like where he's in space and can make a play. And he just turns his head from the free rusher and just
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: like takes the sack. Like, do you like I I put in my postgame, and you know, I don't wanna, you know, dog on somebody when they're down, but I it was a pretty unplayable performance. Like that's it, that's something that a quarterback, regardless of what you're, you know. We think the physical limitations are with throwing the ball down the field. Like you just have to get the ball out in that situation. And you're likely picking up a first down at midfield and all of a sudden now you're third and long and you know, you're behind the chains again.
Greg: Yeah, no, those are the kinds of decisions that really I mean, among the many problems that I think that you see in K independent right now, the decision making I think is near the top for sure. Because there is the play you brought up, there was a play in later on in the game where he had a chance, he made one guy miss on a play action play, then had a chance to throw it away because he was out of the pocket and then just like does not. And then like I said, next thing you know, you got second and twenty from round like ten or whatever it was. So like Those are the kinds of and then and then there's another one. There's another one that I think I I I also included in a little like video that I put together. which by the way I'm more and more about Premiere Pro when I want to put stuff like that together. So that's been a cool thing. Thank you. It's that's been a cool thing
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, it looked good.
Greg: to learn on the fly. but that one actually I I I I like so much of this is hard to it's not hard to talk about, but you have to be careful, I think, because you and me don't know the actual play calls and the game
Lucas Ingham: Hundred percent.
Greg: plans. Like and I think that there was one example of that and I think where the announcer kinda called him out on bailing from a clean pocket. It
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: it also could have been a situation where like, you know, that to me, like in hindsight, I kinda was like, well, like maybe that was kinda drawn up that way where like if it doesn't see if like he doesn't see one read, maybe he
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: dashes so I g I guess the point is that like, you know, he he could make a lot of better calls, but it's also true that we don't always know the gameplay, we don't always know the calls, so we don't always come to the right conclusions. but, you know, some of these decisions are th these have been throughout every game. Like that's why I picked Fresno Fresh North State to win that game is because
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: after the Arizona game, after the Duquesne game, and then the two before that against UW and K State, like it became clear that the opponent, as great as they were with UWK State and Arizona, like, they were not playing as big a role as just
Lucas Ingham: No.
Greg: the bad decisions were. Like it didn't matter in those in those mistakes that he th that he made. who the opponent was because they have it against Duquesne, they have it against Arizona. So that's
Lucas Ingham: Right. Mm-hmm.
Greg: why I feel like it it it it's risky to r keep rolling him out there because even in a game that profiles as winnable like Fresno State or the first half against Duquesne, I mean like the opponent has not mattered nearly as much as just that like what's going on in his head and the decisions he makes. So that's why I will be fascinated to see who they roll out there here on Friday night.
Lucas Ingham: Do you think like it's an FCS to FBS processing thing? Because something I always think about with Cam was like he wasn't a great decision maker either, but he was so physically talented that he like got away with a bunch of stuff. And so it
Greg: Mm, yeah.
Lucas Ingham: kind of feels like watching some of what Caden Pennick was doing at UC Davis, it was kind of the same thing on that level. Like he he was faster than everyone else. Like he could get the ball to places where like he could get away with the some of these plays that he should be throwing the ball away. Like he was getting away with that at the FCS level. And now here, like clearly, clearly that's not happening to the same level. And he hasn't adjusted to that yet. Some of that is like, you know, I've talked about, you know, it's a tough landing spot to have those three out of those first four power four games. Like maybe if he had, you know, an easier landing, he would have progressed. But right now it feels like he's regressing. So do you feel like that's like one of those things where it's like, like the game's just so much faster at the FPS level and and he's not adjusting to that?
Greg: Yeah, I there's definitely part of that for sure, because yeah, you go from playing like the one play that people got excited about when he committed here was when they were playing like a preseason game against like Mercer and he made like eight guys mess and ran for a touchdown. Like
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: and those are the kinds of plays you can make against FCS opponents for sure. But I also feel like and you know, I think at the beginning of the season I felt a little like I wasn't a hundred and ten percent confident in this take. Because I didn't really know how it would play out the rest of season. But like I have I have said for a little bit that I that I do wonder about the physical size that he has and what difference
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: like what effect that has on his game and the effect that has on his decision making. Because I mean I've you know, we've only talked to him a handful of times here, which by the way, that's its own conversation. The fact that he's not talked
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: after these last two games. But we we talked to him once in sp in Springball and more of like a scrum situation and then once in in fall camp when he got the job. And Like I'm taller than Caden Pennick and I'm not really I'm like six foot even. So which, you know, No Fafita is shorter than that and he's all he's obviously awesome. There's been tons of great quarterbacks that have been shorter. So it doesn't have to be a problem, but I think in his case, it kind of is. Like I think there's like a component of like at the FCS level, to bring it back to what you were talking about, at the FCS level, you know, I I I I've talked to to athletes in the past, hey man, like what's the biggest difference from going to FCS ball To FS ball. And they and you know, they always talk about how the talent level is more or less not the same, but like there's not as big of a gap between that. But where the big gap is like the literal size of the guys that you're going
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: up against. Like the like the the talent level might be somewhat comparable, but you go from FCS to FPS and the best guys are not as small anymore. I they're
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: literally bigger and faster and stronger, even even if the talent is is still somewhat comparable. So I think anyway, I think just like you you you you go from that you y you you go from, you know, trying to evade guys that are, you know, more that are just literally smaller and then go to the FPS level and all of a sudden it's like not as easy to navigate. I mean, I made the comparison on our podcast to like when me and Jamie will go play basketball at the rec center here sometimes, there are there
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: are tons of passes that I like get used to making that are easily makeable, you know, nine times out of ten against regular people like you and I. Well, then all of a sudden it you you You get to April and May and the actual basketball players here at WSU are coming and they read that like a book and they pick it off. I'm like, Jesus, man, like this is not what I'm used to. So, you
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: know, maybe there's a little bit of that going on. But, you know, that's that's the bet that they made on him. Like, you know, as
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: as much as we talk about how difficult a transition that is, and I totally believe in how how hard that could be, that's that's part of the deal. I mean, they they
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: they paid him however much money to make that transition and it's not It's not really you know, it's it's not an unheard of thing to do. I mean, that's a lot of transferring nowadays as, you know, so and or so called like calling guys up from the FCS level.
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And that's that's part of the deal. And if it's not working, then you know, you gotta pivot. So we'll see how it goes.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Well, I mean, you think about Cam Moore and Zevi, two guys who started their careers at the FCS level, and obviously, you know, they're taller guys, so that doesn't really fit in the same example, but they were able to make that adjustment over time. And maybe we could have me and you could have learned something from the at the wreck because we got smoked off the court last week when I was over there in Pullman. That was
Greg: Yeah, I was also I didn't I was also getting getting over a cold, so I literally think I was like my like condition in my li I couldn't breathe I could breathe fine, but I wasn't like in as great a shape if I as I was if I was healthy, so maybe that was
Lucas Ingham: Well and also there's nothing you can do when everyone just makes every shot against you. I mean that's one of those ones where you just gotta tip your count.
Greg: I know. I'm like, dude, like I hope he doesn't think everybody here is like making everything all the time. Like that was ridiculous, dude. Like
Lucas Ingham: It seemed like it. But anyway, I mean back to p Pinnack and like yes, there's the physical limitations and stuff, but part of the reason I felt comfortable, you know, like we don't know the plays, we don't know what the looks are and all that stuff. But like for Leaf to be, I mean, and I get it, he's an opinionated guide, but like you rewatched the game too. It's like they were pretty on him the whole time. And Leaf even had a piece in Kook Fan, you know, later on about how they should maybe look at a different quarterback after the game. I'm like, for him to look at that and see it, there was another one. At the end when they're driving down to get that field goal at the end of the half where Clemens is kind of slow coming back to the play and Leaf calls it out. He's like, I think he's kind of annoyed because he was open down the field. I wanted to find an alternate angle if that's so bad. But Pinnock does what he's great at. He extends the play and then he steps up and then he checks it sh down short of the line to gain when maybe Clemens was open over the middle of the field. And I I
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: just think when you're looking at how awesome this defense has been, that if you could just get, you know, two or three plays. Kind of like Fresno did on Saturday, that that could be the difference in the offense. And so if somebody else on the roster gives them a better chance to just, you know, maybe they're not awesome. I don't maybe the ceiling of this offense isn't very high. But it there, there's no way that this can be the ceiling of this offense with the as put presently constructed. Like they have to be able to find something else on this roster, or with the coaching staff, whatever, like for them to be this bad would be shocking.
Greg: Yeah, I mean I it's tough because as as, you know, what's the word I'm looking for? As right as it might seem to, you know, be looking other options at quarterback, I'm also not convinced that Psp Pinnock is not the best quarterback on this team. I I g I
Lucas Ingham: Hundred percent. Yeah.
Greg: think that's still like, you know that's why none of us are really surprised that he earned that the, you know, designation coming out of Fall Camp. I the I still think that that's like a distinct possibility because you look at The other two guys with Owen Eselman and Julian Duggar, you know, they're they're plenty talented in their own ways, but Eselman has not played the stab of college football. And Julian Duggar's main weakness is throwing the ball. Like, which is not a good starting
Lucas Ingham: Throwing the ball. Yeah. Yeah.
Greg: place for a quarterback. And he has plenty of pocket presence issues in the same way that Caden Finning does, at least from what we were able to see in Fall Camp this year. So like you know, you're rolling the dice if you roll out either of those guys. And with Duggar, I think it's rolling the dice you know, in something of a similar way to the way they have been with Pinick. It's like, you know, can we trust this guy to make the right decision? Can we trust this guy to hang in the pocket?
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: which are all the same issues that we have with Caden Pinnock right now. So and then it's like, well, is does that turn things over to Owen Ashelman? I think he has I think he has the best arm on the team. But like we just mentioned, he has yet to play a c a snap of college football and for a guy that's probably like nineteen years old, do you want to have him roll out there like, hey man We know you have now played a staff of college football, but now it's your job to like revive this offense. And not only at
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: home, on the road, at night. Like good luck, dude. Like yeah, on a short
Lucas Ingham: On a short week. Yeah.
Greg: week, like good luck. So like, you know, I don't there's no easy answer. I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, if I if there was a gun to my head, I would say that Pinnacle would be out there on Friday night. You know, but you know,
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.
Greg: I've I've been around before, so we'll see.
Lucas Ingham: Right. I I mean I just it's like me and you, I was listening to we talked before or like it on after the first day of fall camp, and we were kind of like projecting, like obviously, like in in this bared out in like the preseason poll that you guys did, like there's a high ceiling there, but there was also and and that's taken place on one side of the ball, but you were also like, Well, there's there's a pretty low floor too. And and that's we were kind of more thinking that would be on the defensive side of the ball with the secondary and all that stuff. I don't think anybody It's just so hard to imagine going into the season that they'd like in the 120s on offense. Like you would think, like, regardless
Greg: No.
Lucas Ingham: of what the physical limitations are, what we think of the receivers, what we think of Pinnock, like for them to not be able to, you know, score more than eight points per game on offense is like pretty bewildering. So I mean, do you think some
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: of that goes into like the preparation that the offensive staff is giving Caden Pinnock? Like, do you think maybe he's not being like coached up well enough? Because it it it just seems like something like When I talked to Nathan Carroll from Boise State in Matt Miller at the receivers, he said, I mean, they like led the Mountain West in drops. They were like top five in drops. And like people were like, they were like Boise State fans were almost like celebrating, you know, him out the door. And so is there just a a coaching element, not even just the X's and O's, the front the play calling, like a preparation of getting the players ready to execute, whatever that plan may be. Like, do you think maybe that's part of what's missing?
Greg: Yeah, I mean this sounds like a cop out, but I think like first I just goes back to like we don't know what the actual game plan is, so it's impossible
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: to s it's impossible to say, you know, with any real conviction the effect that that has on the way these games are going. but yeah, I just like he I I I think it has more to do with like the culmination of just like the way the season has gone to this point. And I
Lucas Ingham: Yes.
Greg: think like, you know, some of this has to probably has to do and again I this is pure speculation. I don't I don't I'm not in this brain, but like you know, you see the culmination of how of how this has gone where like you've had an interception in all five games, you have six total turnovers. Your offense as a whole has nine total turnovers. You're one of the worst teams offensively in all these different kinda kinds of categories.
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And I think for a guy that's twenty years old, like that's gonna get to you. Like that that's that's just human
Lucas Ingham: Hundred percent.
Greg: a human nature. I mean that would get to you and I if we were in that spot too.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, you're getting boot at home. Like there's all kinds of like yeah.
Greg: Yeah, like there there's all kinds of way this this can really rattle you and there's no shame in that happening. I guess obviously you're paid to, you know, get it done, but at the end of the day
Lucas Ingham: Yeah that yeah.
Greg: there's so it's it's kind of a balance in that way. But, you know, outside of not really knowing what the game plan is, it's hard to say, but you know, I I I do think that like, you know, there's he's also he's also just left a lot out there like playing the game. I mean, there there was a third down pass to Jack Peterson that he missed, I was behind him. there is there is there's like I think there was like in the first half there was like an out route to Brandon can have some more of these that just like the passes was not there. obviously he do he according to PFF, which again we have our you know, I'm not so sure about the grades as as we as we go
Lucas Ingham: Mm.
Greg: here, but has plenty of utility and some of like the the depth
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: of passes and the concepts. He didn't attempt a single deep pass, twenty yards or more
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: against Fresno State. Which, you know, maybe you're like, okay, that's obviously his his biggest weakness. Maybe it's a good thing that he didn't try to do more than it's capable of. But the
Lucas Ingham: Mm, yeah, I mean
Greg: refusal or the inability to stretch the ball downfield, you see the way the p the picture is kinda coming together of just like the way this guy does not really want doesn't want to or doesn't like trust his ability to stretch the ball downfield and you see where it's led them. So
Lucas Ingham: Well, yeah, I mean it's definitely it's definitely a confidence issue. Cause like the one I signaled out where he has gosh, I'm forgetting if it if it's blood or not, but you know, I I think it was like a post route or whatever, and he steps up and like it's kind of like a no-lose situation. Like you throw it up, it's either gonna be long, like the D B like he's has a like some level of separation. So he might not catch it, but you know it's not gonna be an interception. And like he clearly
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Lucas Ingham: just doesn't have the confidence and like like the Jack Peterson one that's behind him, there's one that's low to BG on the side. I think you maybe mentioned that. But I just look at the whole preparation of the offense. Like Maxwell Woods, who both of us really like and a lot of us think could be running back one, like bouncing it outside and losing four yards. Or like a lot of these plays, it looks like BG's like not where Caden Pinnock thinks he's gonna be. Like that's happened a couple of times between Arizona and Fresno State. Like it's just as like like it's not just Caden Pinnock who's failing to execute. Like there's like a level of execution failure from from everybody in in, you know, to Like it's that's the coordinator's job and the head coach's job to to a certain extent to like get everybody on the same page and it feels like it feels like nobody's on the same page, which is like what's
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: really jarring about it. It's not like you couldn't find one person, like you can't signal out one person like, all right, Nick Bachin, maybe like they've done a really great job. But outside of that,
Greg: Mm.
Lucas Ingham: you're like, who who has had a season to to say, well, they're you know, they're the one the one holding
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: this offense together.
Greg: Yeah. I mean, you look back, I mean, you mentioned how you know, Matt Miller leaving Boys Estate was not exactly met with, you know, great sadness or whatever by Boyce State. He had not called plays, he was never calling plays at Boyce State, he hadn't called plays at twenty nineteen at Montana State. So you look at some of that, you look at some of the way like I said, his his exit was received at Boise State and some of the numbers behind the wide receivers, you know, how they fared at Boise State. yeah, I d I just think there's like there's just the there's there there's plenty of blame to go around. I also think that
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: like no one has had a good year on offense for them this year. Like there's no one I mean, you mentioned Nick Backen being great. I Ashton Tripp has has has had a pretty good year at left tackle outside of like the K State game. But no one has had like I don't you know, I don't want to I don't mean to like generalize it too much and to kind of just, you know, let him off the hook. But the the truth is like no one has had a a a great year. I mean everybody's been
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: you know, had had had up and down games. People have you know, Daniel Blood dropped the fourth down pass in the in the last
Lucas Ingham: Yes.
Greg: drive against Fresno State. Like everybody has had some hand in the blame and so, you know,
Lucas Ingham: Hundred percent.
Greg: it's a f it's a fine line between, you know, recognizing that and also like also recognizing that that Caden has has has Pinka's not had a great year at all, you know, in his own right.
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: but it's just been a a top to bottom, just everybody has just not not been there.
Lucas Ingham: Well, this is the way I phrased it, because to be clear, like I think like not that I think like I re you know, reevaluating after fall camp because you never know, like what you've seen against them against other teams, like clearly I don't think they have like the highest ceiling, like they're gonna be out here scoring thirty points per game. But like I can pretty confidently say that like I feel like they're capable of a lot more than what they're doing right now as a unit. Like, regardless of what we think of the physical limitations, like I know they are capable of accomplishing more. And so it would almost be better if they were bad. I think the problem with Saturday Is it felt more like incompetence than lack of talent. Like it didn't feel like,
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: my gosh, like we always talk about that Apple Cup where you it's like Boston and Coleman and it's like, well, you did what you could, but the physical talent just took over. It would almost feel better if it was like that. And and that's not what it feels like at all. It feels like whatever the plan in place is, and and I go back to, you know, time you talk about the play calling and the the lack of rushes or whatever. It felt like the same thing happened in the Arizona game where You know, you talk about an inexperienced play caller, an inexperienced quarterback, and like the moment sort of got to them where it was like, well, we're down in this game. And then they just like completely abandoned the rush. There was no and and these offenses don't look like what Kirby Moore did at Fresno State or at Missouri. And some of that has to do with, you know, the tight ends are banged up, and I know like they get the tight ends involved and that kind of thing. But like for them to just completely abandon the run against Fresno State in the second half, like I don't think we really realized that
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: as it was happening. But I think that's part of the reason. And when Kirby spoke to you guys on Monday, like he tried to sneak it in there super quick, like, and I'm gonna be taking over the play calling. And you were like, wait, wait, wait, what? Like you're gonna take over the play calling? Like, he definitely seems
Greg: No.
Lucas Ingham: like it's not a decision that he wanted to make, clearly, but clearly something was not going in the way that he he felt bad enough about the way the games were progressing and how the play calling was progressing that he felt like he had to step in and do something.
Greg: Yeah, I mean they had they they had to make a big change. and yeah, I mean you look at just like how much an offensive minded guy he like I wasn't totally like when he f was first hired and that whole process was kind of unfolding, like I wasn't sure if he would actually hire an O C at all. Just because of
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: like the offensive background and, you know, offensive brain he has throughout his his his career. but yeah, he ends up you know, hiring, you know, a longtime buddy of his from because they they played at Boise State Boise State together in like the early 2010s and they've been friends for you know for forever. So yeah, just I I I d I just think that like the fact that no one that there was a there was a reason to wonder if he would even hire an OSC because of how strong an offensive mind he has. Now you fast forward and you're like, okay, like maybe, you know, he's an offensive guy. Like why was he ever kinda delegating these opportunities to begin with? and you know, I don't think I don't like you said, I don't think it's all been on Matt Miller. You there there there's plenty of
Lucas Ingham: Hundred percent.
Greg: blame to go around. But you do look at like the reason why he came up so fast, reason why Kirby came up so fast is because his offense were always awesome.
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: You know, obviously there's there's something to be said for the personnel he at Friends of State with Jay Kayner and then Missouri with Amon Hardy and Cody Strader and guys like that. Like that's always it always helps to have good players, obviously. But
Lucas Ingham: Right. Well but he's involved in recruiting those players too though. I mean you gotta give him cred like, yeah.
Greg: yeah, yeah, totally. So so I do wonder and you know, I'll be fascinated to see like you know, what I'll be really inter interested to see is now that he has like, you know, whatever increasing measure of control over the offense, what kind of effect does that have on the actual personnel and the guys that they roll out there? And like, is he true is is is what he's doing truly just calling plays, or is it more like, Hey, I'm gonna have a real hands on approach to who we're rolling out there and How does that change things for them overall? So
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I mean it'll be s like I I wish, you know, it's one of those things you wish you were in the building to know like how involved was he it would before because it it kind of to me has been shocking because it feels like there's been a disconnect between Moore and Miller and Pinnock, just like the whole like for the third five games, like they're not like all on the same page, which I think is probably the biggest issue. But, you know, you look at it and he he's the head coach. It's he's a first time head coach, he's trying to, you know, be the the the head man of this team. But like Trent Bray, like I think we can pretty safely say, like, he's got the defense down. And I'm sure Kirby Moore's like trying to learn from him and like have his input and all this stuff. But like it seems like where his mind is needed, and part of the reason that he was brought in is you know, on the offensive side of the ball. And and and that's something that like, you know, he's gonna learn from. And like you guys talked about, like someone asked a question, like, like questions about Kirby Moore as a head coach. Like he is, you know, learning this. For the first time too. And so like I'm sure he would go back and change and probably be more involved in the offense if he got a second opportunity on it. And you know, maybe they would look, you know, significantly better. And then that helps Matt learn. Like it just seems like it's safe to say that I think the way they've whatever their plan was going into this season that that was a miss. And I'll be interested to see like, do you think like 'cause I I I do think a lot of a lot of what Pinnock does wrong, especially against Fresno State, is like fairly correctable. Like it's like hitting your easy reads, like your outside throws, like stuff like that. Like, is that something that can change in the middle of a season? Or is that something that goes back? I mean, like, obviously it can't all flip overnight, but like
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: some of these things seem, again, not being a coach, not you know, ever played quarterback at the FPS level, some of these things seem like things like, okay, like we can watch the tape and figure these out.
Greg: I think that's what the rest of their season really hinges on, honestly, is like whether these problems turn out to be ones he can solve and or are they just unsolvable. And are they unsolvable to the extent that you decide to send things up a quarterback? Like I think that that's that's what it is and I just like, you know, you always leave the you always want to leave the door open for them to turn things around because the reality is they've have seven more games to play. Like I you know, they've a they have a lot more games to play and who knows how things will unfold the rest of the season. But the truth is like you look at these first five games and if you're being real I at least for me, like be being realistic, I don't I don't really see anything in his game that would give me confidence to say he could turn this around in a consistent way week to week. Which, you know, we we talked earlier about how the turnovers have n have have not really been a product of the opponent, so much as they've been a product of his just decision making regardless of the opponent. And that's the reason why I feel like, you know, if if I had to lean one way or another, I would lean to the s to the c you know, idea of them not being super correctable because like I said, the opponent has not really has not really made the difference in these play I mean I against Duke he threw this like terrible deep all that that was into almost triple coverage that g that got picked off. Which is like it it's funny that that pick is like been it's it's like lost footage now because the broadcast was not on the game at the time.
Lucas Ingham: I know. Yeah.
Greg: but yeah, I don't And you know, I I think that there are wa like, if if he was ever gonna turn things around, like if there's a world where he does improve and he looks more c sharp and decisive and he's under control, like the world where that exists is probably the world where Kirby Moore is calling plays and he's more involved in the offense.
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: You know, if that was ever gonna happen, I think it would happen as a result of Kirby doing what he's doing now. So if there's ever a reason for optimism, I think that's where you see it. And you maybe that'll come to pass. I mean, we've been pretty, you know, s or at least I've been pretty cynical on this podcast so far. But I think that there's
Lucas Ingham: Hehehehe.
Greg: there's plenty of reason, you know, we we you know, if if we're gonna prop up Kirby as being this like awesome offensive mind, which I think he really is, then you
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Yeah.
Greg: also have to recognize the possibility for them for them to throw things around as a result of him being you know, being more involved. So
Lucas Ingham: Totally. And I I just think it's one of those things I think is totally fair for you to be cynical. Cause you know, up until the Fresno State game, I just like it was so hard to evaluate. We talked about that. Like I wanted to see what it looked like against Fresno State. And I think that's why the move happens after Fresno State, 'cause it's like I think it's like, all right, let's see how it looks, like, let's get the rushing game going, which is something we talked about, which clearly didn't happen because they just didn't even really run the ball at all. But I think after that it was like, okay, like this is something that that needs to change here. And I don't know, it i I I think you're totally right that they can turn it around, but it's one of those things where like I've kind of adjusted the way I think about sports in general a lot because of WCU basketball. And I would always put up these stats about like, well, the three point defense, like it can't be this bad, like they're getting bad three point shooting luck, like it can't just keep happening. And then it just would always happen. And I was like, Okay, well,
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: until they prove otherwise that they can't that something's gonna be different, then why should I believe that something's gonna change until I actually see it on the field? So I don't think it's
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: out of the realm of possibility that they come out and score like twenty four points against a pretty bad Utah State game and team and like the defense can help out. And I don't think that's out of the realm of possibility. I just kinda it's kind of a I'll believe it when I see it sort of thing.
Greg: Yeah, it's I think it's like in baseball when a guy's throwing like f five straight balls maybe and you wanna wait to see a strike until you, you know, swing the bat again.
Lucas Ingham: It's exactly what it's yeah. Great analogy.
Greg: so I I think that's kind of where I'm at with this team. Like like on on Fridays, well well I guess it'll be a Thursday 'cause the Friday game, but on fr on before the game I'll do my preview stuff and I always have like a prediction, start little pr prediction story and until they turn this around in a meaningful way, like I'm not gonna pick them to win any of these games.
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: so and I think that's just that's just kind of the way you have to look at it. Like until like you said, until they turn it around I don't really see any reason to believe in their ability to to do it. Like I think it's possible. You know like I said
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.
Greg: I don't I don't think it's like totally out of the realm of possibility but until you see and not only 'cause that's the thing like You know, Arizona, we saw them score twenty-four. I think part of that had to do with the fact that on the BG touchdown the guy fell down. so maybe you're looking at
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. and they gotta pick six too.
Greg: well, I and you in the pick six, so really like if you take those two plays out, you know, I'm not trying to discredit Yeah,
Lucas Ingham: They score ti No, no, that's totally fair.
Greg: exactly. So like the point that I'm trying to make is that like you look at the twenty-four and you know, okay, like that, that's not that bad. But you look at it a little more detail and you look at like hey what is really consistent and what is translatable from this game to the next, there wasn't a whole lot there. So that's what I'm trying to say, as as far as this game goes, is that like if they show us something that that feels translatable, that feels consistent and meaningful, then maybe we can start changing the way we talk about that. But until then I think this is a fair conversation to have.
Lucas Ingham: just one last thing on the offense before we we'll wrap up with something positive. So we're not ca we because we've been
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: a little bit of downers this one, but which is totally justified. But do you
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: think it it's more been more impactful on the offense that Freeman has been out, you know, 10 plays into the season, or that the you know, they've been banged up at tight end? Because, you know, I kind of went back because I was having like some fan copium after that Fresno State game, like, my gosh, like Kirby Moore, head coach. And so I went back and started watching all of his offenses, and I was like, well, you know, like. I it just like maybe the personnel isn't what he needs to run this offense the way he wants to and I think maybe people are under
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Lucas Ingham: crediting like the importance of having those tight ends that are are kind of a a stallworth of what he likes to do.
Greg: Yeah, like the that's been a big part of his identity. I think the way my brain goes right away is to Tony Freeman's absence because of his ability to
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: stretch the field. You know, I like he I don't know how many I mean he obviously he he went down pretty early in the Apple Cup, but you saw like he he he was he is their best receiver by far, but I think you think about the way he's able to stretch the field vertically and you think about Well,
Lucas Ingham: Would that have mattered if they couldn't get the ball to him there though?
Greg: I well right, but I also think that like part of Pinnock's like inability inability to do that is like partially tied to the fact that he doesn't have a guy whose best trait is doing that. Or one of his best traits is
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, that's fair.
Greg: doing that. You know what I mean? I I I think maybe his deep ball acumen looks a little better if he has a guy who's actually really skilled and polished
Lucas Ingham: Sure.
Greg: at doing that kind of thing. So I think that you know it's it doesn't always have to do with w with the D pass. I think s you know, like having a guy that has credible speed and route running and that kind
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: of thing You know, we talk a lot about how at first you might be tempted to believe that Tony Freeman and Thank Coggins can be, you know, interchangeable.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: But the reality is you have in Tony Freeman, like we talked about, a guy that's polished, that's experienced, that had no that can run routes in a really sharp way. and you know, n not having a guy that could do that and not having a guy that could really open up the field, open up the middle of the field in particular, I think has been a big deal for them. And you know, it's It's it's a fine line because as much as that is the case, it's also true that they have not had he's been out f since the last, you know, four and
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: you know, three fourths of of of the season, so or games I should say. So it's th they've had time to really shape their offense around
Lucas Ingham: Adjust, yeah.
Greg: yeah, shape their offense around him being out, and it just hasn't happened. So, you know, because of how how they've had more time to adjust to that being the case, then I think any different set like Trey Electra being out there. 'Cause he only played like eight or eight or ten snaps, I think, against Fresno State. and you know, he's he's a great pass catcher. Like he is by far the best pass catching tight end. And, you know, maybe and that was just his first game back from injuries, so he that's probably why he didn't play as much. But and you know, so maybe we see a real on a world on Friday where he's more involved where he there he's looking for, you know, whoever the quarterback is gets him more involved in the offense. But yeah, I th I think my immediate reaction is just seeing the way that the field could open up if they had Tony Freeman. But, you
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: know, like I said, it's also true that they have not had him for the majority of season and you gotta adjust. So
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I mean it's sort of crazy that I mean I just go back to thinking about like how do you get the deep ball involved, which has obviously like been talked about at nauseum, but like outside of the guy the Arizona defender falling down on that fourth down, like isn't it like it it feels sort of crazy that they haven't like scheme like like Fresno State had three plays where they got a deep ball open because of deception or like you know, you
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Lucas Ingham: just feel like through five games, like there would be somebody who's just, you know, wide open down the field. Like we saw like Brandon Gana BG in the in the you know, in the spring the end conclusion of the spring game, like through five games, like for a defense to like perfectly play you and not have anybody like just running open down the field to like get a deep ball opportunity, like that part feels
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: almost as crazy to me. So
Greg: Yeah, I mean I think like these things make sense w when we talk about them, they make sense in theory. But on the field you have a quarterback who's very obviously not super confident, doesn't have the trust in that
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: deep ball as you would hope you would have. so that's kind of where my head is at on that. I think they ran this one play against Fresno State, I believe it was in the second half, where they had thrown a bunch of out routes and stick routes, which is what he's best at, Pinick is best at. But then Daniel Blood runs this route where it's like he kinda runs out route. The DB kind of kind of you know tries to jump that, but then he makes a double move and runs back upfield and then they get like a twenty seven yard pass. So there are like ways to scheme a r you know, scheme guys open. I think that was a great example of that happening.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, yeah. what you're talking about.
Greg: But it's also like, you know, how many of those do you feel like you can trust him to throw? 'Cause that was a pretty like that like that was a pretty easy not not easy throw to make, but it's it's a it's a great route, it's a great concept. You know, he's probably, you know, if if if that's like that's that's a good throw to make. I think where you could where it goes wrong is just having him in a situation where he has to make, you know, two or three different reads that are all further down the field, and that's where the decision making kinda come back to haunt you. That's where some of that you know, pocket presence comes into play. So I think that that's kinda where that, you know, that that's kinda is.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, and I just go but I just go back to like Fresno State and like they really had a lot of and they didn't have not have very much success moving the ball outside of their three, you know, kind of gadget plays. And 'cause like we're
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: sitting there in the first half as, you know, Mandal, like he had open receivers downfield and kind of the same thing. Like they just he was not hitting them. I think there was like
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: four that easily could have been big plays, and then the three that end up clicking
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: for them are are are the gadget plays. So it'll be I'll be interested to see how they play against Boise State. If I was a betting man, which I am, I think Boise State has a has a good chance to to pull away in that one. so we'll
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: see. if if it is Eshelman, do you think there's maybe a little bit of like a he he might be unpolished, maybe he's gonna turn the ball over. But like I think this is something Jamie signaled out. Like cu Zevi comes in and he clearly just had more command, he had more control. Clearly they like kind of rallied around him, believed in him. And so maybe even if Eshelman's not the best quarterback on the team, because I think we we kind of agree that Pinnock is, you know, maybe the most talented, but or or the most ready, polished, whatever you want to say. Like, do you think if they went to a guy like Eshelman, there's just a little bit more juice that, you know, they think he can even if there's, you know, maybe some
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: some unfinished parts of his game that like, hey, like he's gonna go out there and play maybe with a little bit of reckless confidence, which is kind of what they need.
Greg: Yeah. I mean I think there's something to be said for making decisions that keep the locker room together. Like even if you feel like Owen Elshelman or even Julian Duggar is not your best option at that point, what you really cannot afford is to have infighting, you can't afford to have the locker room splinter apart as a result of decisions you make personnel wise. So I think if like if there's again, I this is me just purely speculating, but like Let's say all the guys in the locker room like love Owen Eshelman. And I'm sure they do. Like I've I've heard he was a great teammate and people love him. Like if if all the guys in the locker room really
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, same.
Greg: are pushing for Owen Eshelman, then maybe that's the guy you go with for that reason. Like like maybe there's not
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: really much reason to believe in like, you know, like it it you know, it's a tough spot. You know, on the road, like we said, on the road, middle of the season, there's a lot of pressure on a on on a on a you know, nineteen year old kid. But if that's the decision that's gonna ki you know, get the guys going and keep the locker room together Which, you know, will help them for the rest of the season, then maybe that's the call you have to make. so and you know, like you said, I th I think there's something to be said for also just like really not knowing what you don't know at that age and that and that level of
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: inexperience. Like maybe you just go out there and just like, you know, eff it, Darius Clemens down there somewhere. I'm just gonna chuck it, you know what I mean? Like maybe there's something to be said for that, is that having
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, yeah.
Greg: that recklessness. Because I think that's if there's a if there's a big difference between him and Pinnac right now, it's that like, you know, one guy doesn't really have any you know, there's nothing really I mean, there there's something to lose, but one guy's obviously been been really gone through the ringer and confidence wise, and one guy who's just gonna
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: he might be able to go out there and just be like, who cares? I'm just gonna, you know, chuck it and we'll see we'll see how it falls.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I mean you gotta keep the team together. I mean, I think of twenty three, which was your first year here in the six game losing streak, and it was just one game it'd be the offense, one game it'd be the defense. Clearly they weren't really, you know, all in it for each other at that point. It just kind of fell apart and you know, they got it back on the rails for the last two games, but like those six games were just there was always, you know, they they just weren't a connected group. And so keeping the group connected
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: because it seems like a lot of you know, peep these kids stayed to play together, you know, on both sides of the ball. A lot of them, you know, stayed. You think about the running backs, which, you know, you've talked about were highly touted and then just haven't haven't gotten used in the way we thought.
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: well, I I think we've covered everything we can on the offense. I don't know how much there is to say. It'll be interesting to see. Like I I'm fascinated to see what who runs out on the field, how the play calling's gonna look different. Like, is it gonna be pretty noticeable? Like, all of that will be super interesting. I wanted to ask you this question because Canzano was talking with Jason Puckett yesterday about The Oregon State NIL roster and WSU, and obviously, you know, Oregon State's off to an awesome start. Atkinson, who funny enough was like FCS player of the year, like him and Pinnick were like one two FCS. I I think that's a funny correlation. Yeah, he was at Mercer. Yeah, he was. Yeah. Yes.
Greg: Wait, wasn't he a Mercer? Am I making that up? So that was the game that I that I I brought up earlier with his with with Pinux Highlight. So that's wow. How about that?
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, and Pinnock and they UC Davis won that game, I believe. And but I I think they finished 1-2 in like FCS quarterback of the year, because I was looking at it and I was like, that's interesting. It'll be funny to see how that plays out. Clearly,
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: face in his favor. But to Pinnock's credit, he doesn't have anybody like LeCree. I LeCree's been incredible. anyway, to just circle around the point of it, he made the point of like WCU has, you know, a seven million dollar roster, and then they have players that they're paying that aren't really playing. I guess two part question, which I know you love when people do the two part questions, but
Greg: No, that's all good.
Lucas Ingham: w w when somebody like in terms of players that they could be paying that aren't playing, Nylan Brown, I know he got hurt, but he wasn't really playing much before that, like who on the roster
Greg: Mm.
Lucas Ingham: is like would they be throwing money at that's not playing? And then two, like, from everything I've heard, I've never heard the number seven million. Like I've that's way higher than anything I've ever been told. And not that I have better sources than John Canzano, but that is just not That is not what I've been led to believe. So do you think that's a real number
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: or
Greg: I mean I yeah, I mean that's such a hard thing to track down for obvious reasons,
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: you know, f for competitive advantage reasons and you know, I there's been times over the years where I've like asked people, hey, off you know, off the record, like, you know, is there an I and you know an an NIL number that you're working with? Just so I have kind of a background idea of how this is and no one wants to say anything. So that's kind of it's
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: so hard to track down in that way. So I don't really want to like speculate on like what the number might be. I think like as far as players go. I the the two that come to mind that maybe could be a part of that is one, Max McCree on the offensive line.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: He was obviously has played a lot of college football, was starting at Washington before he got hurt, as recently as like tw last year and and in twenty four. So I like with like when they like when they announced his signing, that was a guy that that me and I'm sure
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: a lot of a lot of people were like, man, he's probably you gonna be starting. and you know, that one was tough too, 'cause he's always played left tackle and they have a good left tackle in Ash and Trip. but in Spring Ball, he was their starting right tackle. I he wa he was awesome. I I thought he was and that was to go from playing left tackle for your entire career then all of a sudden playing a right tackle at a new spot
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: i to to to acquit yourself that well I think was really impressive on his part. So for him to be just like totally out of the rotation, even though the the you know, the personnel they have in place kinda made it a a tough fit. For him to just be like totally out of the rotation, I think, has always s struck me as kind of weird. You know, because
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: he was always like I said, he had been starting at a P four place before injuries came his way. went to Maryland and that was kind of a weird situation because I I believe his mom was sick at that time. That's the reason why he
Lucas Ingham: Mm.
Greg: ended up not or why he ended up red shirting that year. but played a lot of played tons of college football at different levels at Washington at Maryland at the Jukewell level for a l for for a few years too. So you know, that that that's always a guy, and you know, I I I don't this like this is more of just me speculating on guys that I'm surprised have not gotten as much run. I don't know how what the role of NIL is in that, but that was
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: a guy that I'm sure they paid, you know, some amount of money.
Lucas Ingham: Decent mile, yeah.
Greg: yeah, sure, sure. And then so him and then the other one that that that comes to mind is Tank Hawkins as well for me.
Lucas Ingham: T yeah.
Greg: yeah, because you know to get a guy that could have gone anywhere he wanted out of high school that went to Florida, that I'm sure, you know, I don't know what his portal situation looked like coming out of the portal from Florida, but I'm sure he could have gone a lot of other places than Washington State for sure. And you know, no shout out to WSU, but that's a guy that has has the
Lucas Ingham: For sure. No, no, no, no. That's a reality.
Greg: talent has the talent and the and the the tools to go to a lot of different you know, a lot of you know, P four schools. So he's a guy that like, yeah, like, I I I like I I'm surprised it's not really especially, you know As much as it's true that he is less positive a receiver as Tony Freeman, he still has the talent and the tools to like give you something in the same realm as as what Freeman was giving them. Yeah. And
Lucas Ingham: Some screens, some jet sweeps, like anything, yeah.
Greg: it it it's it's been tough for him too. Like like I don't it so many of these things run together too, because you think about like you you're tempted to just be like, Man, like why isn't Tick Hawkins more involved? Well, you have a quarterback out there who can't really stretch the field vertically, which is, you know, a lot of what he's able to do. And I remember against Arizona, they ran a screen pass for him in the red zone, I believe on third down, and Penning throws a pass. It's it's like a bubble screen and the pass is
Lucas Ingham: Yeah and
Greg: like kinda outside his shoulder, so we have to kind of like backtrack for a second to catch it. And then
Lucas Ingham: There's a lot of those, yeah.
Greg: and then at that point it's like, okay, now you're just behind the chains and you gotta go you have to change directions and it's hard to make something out of that. And then there was the screen pass, I think again here against Fredno State, where it's kind of the same position position where
Lucas Ingham: Same deal, yeah.
Greg: it's like, yeah, it's like How much can you really do in a spot like that? So, those to be two guys, honestly, you know, we we we talked about what their offense might look like as a result of Kirby taking over play calling duties and more being more involved. Like, I will be in in interested to see if if those guys' roles change in any meaningful way because, you know, after the game on Saturday, and then on Monday, he Kirby talks about, you know, everything is up to reevaluation, da da da. So is that, you I'll be fascinated to see like, is that true? Is that true to the extent that he's you know, in insinuating like we'll see.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I mean I think that's like when he says that, because like he never like really straight like deviates from like he's just a very like stoic coach speak person, like which you've highlighted obviously,
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: but like him saying that like everything's up for evaluation to me is almost like as like direct and stern as he can get that like everybody's on the chopping block. Like maybe I'm reading too much into that, but like cause you asked him about the
Greg: Yeah. I kinda Yeah. To me
Lucas Ingham: quarterbacks first and he was like everything's up for evaluation, and then somebody asked a question digging in more, like, is like like Caden picked the starter and he's like, no. So they kind of led me to believe like, that's a pretty genuine answer to that. But maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
Greg: Yeah, I mean, you have to like the way I saw it is that after a offensive performance that bad, you have to indicate publicly that you're open to changing things.
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: Like if he like the worst thing he could have done post game or even on Monday was say like, yeah, we're just gonna stick to you know, stick to the game plans, keep like that that would be the worst thing Yeah, like that would be the worst
Lucas Ingham: Keep in keep in rhythm.
Greg: thing you could possibly say. So I think that like him saying things are up for reevaluation, like It it is simultaneously the most candid thing he said, but also the most like like
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: ba baseline thing you have like I don't know if it's like the bare minimum, but you
Lucas Ingham: You have to say, yeah.
Greg: have to indicate that like yeah, like whether or not they actually change things in the way that he insinuated, you have to at least indicate that you're open to making those kinds of changes after an offensive
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: offensive per you know, performance like that. So
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I that's fair. But I mean I just like it is so hard to tell with him sometimes because I think he said to you guys after the game on Saturday, like, why didn't you want to get Eshelman some snaps later in the game? He's like, Well, we just wanna like keep the the offense in rhythm. I was like, What what rhythm? Like that's
Greg: What yeah, I he he's a pretty big believer in like keeping the same groups together. Like once we got to the end of fall camp, you saw Pennick running with the first team on s offensive line,
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: then the twos and threes kinda separated themselves. So it seems like he's he he's a pretty big believer in that, for better or worse. But yeah, in that spot, you gotta at least just like kind of end his night to kinda get him out of that that spot.
Lucas Ingham: For sure. And and I am interested to see like Hawkins, like I was it Kansas State where he only played one snap the entire game? Yeah. S so it's some of the right.
Greg: Once yeah, that's I didn't I was that's a good point. Yeah, one snap. He started just the one snap.
Lucas Ingham: So it's some of those things like that, and then the five runs in the second half, and like just the touches that people are getting, like, it's all seemed imbalanced and incoherent. And so I'll be interested to see if that's more like under control. Like like 'cause I think of like, you know, in the NFL watching the new Broncos offensive coordinator take over and they've been on a couple prime time games. So it just comes to mind. Like Sean Payton, obviously, this offensive mastermind he's been forever. He gives up the play calling. And I think it was kind of a similar deal. Like they only had like a very limited amount of rushes, you know, rushing touches in like the second half of the game. And the commentators, it was probably Chris Collinsworth being like, Well, this is, you know, first time play caller, blah, blah, blah. And so it it does seem kind of, you know, These are new people and they need to get experience as as time goes on. And it it's kind of brutal for them that they didn't get to have that experience. Like it would have been cool if Utah State was like the first game of the year. And I I think back to last year, you know, them moving from Potter to Zevi, like it was Idaho, San Diego State, and North Texas. And they saw enough of against that level of opponent to be like, we have to move on. And so I wonder if, you know, had they had that schedule this year, like would we have come to this conclusion sooner than we are now?
Greg: Yeah. No, it's it was a tough stret like that was was what was so weird about covering those first four games,
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: for anybody is that like we all agree that there was nothing really like truly reflective of what they could or couldn't do as a result of those four games.
Lucas Ingham: No, yeah.
Greg: like l like obviously the the things we thought after the first and second game have turned out to be pretty true, at least about their offense and their defense for that matter. but at
Lucas Ingham: Well I think it was true after the second game because I think after the Apple Cup we talked and we were all kinda like, their defense might be pretty good and like offense against lower competition, like they'll they'll figure something out but then that clearly that's just not
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: what's happened.
Greg: Well, yes, that's what I'm saying. Like I like even though at like at the time it was this th you had the sense of like okay, they're playing these calibre of teams that
Lucas Ingham: Yes.
Greg: they won't see the rest of the season, so it's probably reasonable to expect them to improve and off on offense and defense. But it's also true that, you know, they played a team that, you know, profiled as as more their speed and a lot of the same problems still existed. So
Lucas Ingham: Yes, hundred percent.
Greg: you know I tha that's why I've kinda come and kinda changed my opinion on on those first four games is that like, you know, even though those aren't really the same kinds of teams they'll be facing, they kind of are they they they have been the same you know, from those four games to Fresno State, so
Lucas Ingham: Well, and when you go back and evaluate those games, like Washington has not played well pretty much the entire season, like or up to what we thought they were at that time. So it's not like,
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: my gosh, like, you know, number nineteen Washington. Like that's that's been different. I think Kansas State has been awesome, but like i I look at the Arizona I look at I look at the Arizona game. Who do they have this week? They lost to Cincinnati, didn't they? Houston's brutal.
Greg: Sure have. Houst Houston. Houston. If Houston at home I wanna say. Yeah, Houston is not good. but they were expected to be really good. They were pretty good last year. They were they were they were thought to be pretty good.
Lucas Ingham: Well, I mean, I think being ranked twenty and coming out to that crowd they had at home last weekend would be a pretty tough Yeah, well I
Greg: I know, I saw you I saw you tweet about that.
Lucas Ingham: mean, not that it's like not that Washington State doesn't have his own crowd issues. I will say,
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: to end on a positive thing, like I thought the crowd was like 'cause I spent a lot of time on the field during the first part of the game, like the crowd was really awesome on Saturday for a team that's one and three and like hadn't been entertaining to watch. Like and the what John Harlow and company have done with the lights and like back home with the phones and stuff, like It keeps the crowd engaged and like the student section was singing Wonderwall as the first quarter ended. Like all that stuff. Like if the team was really good, I think really and like and it did enhance the experience for like the first half. Like in in honestly, more people stayed through the third quarter than I would have imagined. But had I not been
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Lucas Ingham: working, I I wouldn't have wanted to stay to watch that earlier e either. But Yeah, I'm bar I'm part hey man, I missed three games in four years of being a student and one of them was because my cousin's wedding. So
Greg: You're part of the problem, Lucas. okay, fair.
Lucas Ingham: anyway, l finally finishing on a positive note, because I've been trying to get there and there's just not that many of them. We we talked about before this season, like we were kind of trying to project like the floors and the ceilings, and it's like the defense, like, like there's no way they're gonna be as good as they were last season. The top 25 defense, like that thing kind of thing hasn't happened here in a long time. I think about the way they played on Saturday, and I think about the way they played in some of these other games where you know. They are just getting absolutely zero help and they are having to be on the field this whole time. And they're down, you know, some of their defensive linemen, and they still perform awesome. If they had the offense that they had last season, I'm not convinced that this defense isn't as good, if not maybe like pretty comparable to last season, just based off like it. That's another thing where it's hard to evaluate. Like they are being tasked with like an an impossible task, like what they are being able to ask to accomplish, like. isn't possible. Like nobody would be able to sustain
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: that. So I I would be so curious to see if they had an average offense, like what they would be capable of and how much that would raise their profile as a team.
Greg: Yeah. Or even just like a below average offense, I think, you know, helps them turn
Lucas Ingham: Was like last year, yeah.
Greg: things around. Like yeah, and I think I mean like you talked about like if they had last last year's offense. I think if they had the Danny Freud led bowl game offense throughout the entirety of li like if if that's the offense they had, they're probably winning more games. you know, 'cause
Lucas Ingham: Dude, they'd be awesome if they had did you see his wife getting in the action tweeting like
Greg: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's kind of you know, people have kind of come to their senses on what they could
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: have had if he had been unleashed the entire time. So but yeah, like it's I don't know, man, like it i it's weird because like you would think based on the personnel that they have on offense this year that they're more talented. Like I think they have more talent at receiver. I think like they might be better or supposed to be better on their offensive line.
Lucas Ingham: You think they have more talent at receiver this year? Than last year? Then than Freeman? Than like like not counting Freeman f
Greg: Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean I like free well, I the Freeman
Lucas Ingham: and Josh?
Greg: Yeah, I mean Josh Meredith was like a pretty good receiver. I I d I think that they did a pretty good job of like skeptimin him open. thinking about the touchdown against Virginia and some of those stuff. Like he was a solid receiver, but I think like some of the athleticism they have at that spot between Blood and Clemens and I think that's probably they're probably have to have the leg up, I would say.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Well, but like stealing something that like an idea that you gave me, cause like I I think I was the one probably who presented the, you know, the Tank Hawkins like similar archetype to Tony Freeman thing, and you're like, well, the experience is pretty important. Like Meredith was a guy who had been around for a long time. He could run routes. Like he's like he could be Okay, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, that's fair. Yeah. But I just think that like in and a guy like Noga
Greg: Definitely. But like talent wise, I think that's you know what I mean? I I I I I agree. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean the experience makes a difference.
Lucas Ingham: too, that you could count on. Like, I don't know who the receiver on this team is other than BG, that it's like I can count on him in a big moment.
Greg: Yeah, I mean I I agree. I also think that like you o you always have to think about like what opportunities have they had based on who their quarterback has been and like you know, like I like I hate to keep like, you know, bringing it back to that, you know, again, I don't wanna, you know, t you know, kick a guy when he's down. But it you know, I I think so much of this is like, you know, I mean you mentioned how better this season might have been going for them if they had a little bit of better offense. If they've a little bit better quarterback play, you you're probably seeing more out of those receivers between
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: Blood and Clemens and B G and like
Lucas Ingham: I think if I think if he played better, they could have beaten Arizona and Fresno State, like pretty realistically.
Greg: Yeah, no, totally. I mean like you think I mean you see them score twenty six, but the reality is that they had a couple of short fields late in the game and they had sixteen through th yeah.
Lucas Ingham: They had sixteen it was sixteen six and WCU had the ball with four minutes to go. And they
Greg: Right.
Lucas Ingham: threw a pick on their own ten, whatever it ended up being. So
Greg: Yeah. Ex exactly. Like that's that's what I'm saying. Like that like, you know, even a little better quarterback play, a little better offense probably gets
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: over the hump in games like that.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. And I I just trying to like 'cause to to be fair to Caden, like there's like like we've chronicled, like, there's so much like sure, like he's the focal point, he's the quarterback, he's gonna get the most attention, but like there's a million things that are going wrong beyond him that are out of his control. That's certainly not helping
Greg: Totally.
Lucas Ingham: helping somebody with inexperience like land in a safe place. Like we talked a lot about preseason, like They miscast guys last year and how you get people in positions to succeed. And I I think that's the biggest thing and the biggest reason Kirby Moore's jumping in. It's like, I don't even like not only have they not been put in positions to succeed, like they've been in put in positions to like, I don't even know how to describe it, like positions to fail, positions to not even like have opportunity. Like they don't even have if
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: they they step out out there and it feels like they don't even have a chance.
Greg: No, I mean I don't think they have any identity. Like like that's what I depending on how this next game goes, I do plan on asking Kirby, like, you know, what what's your guys' identity on offense right now? Because I don't I don't I have not seen anything concrete from these first five games. I don't think they I think I I th they have they probably have an idea of what they would have liked their identity to be, but there's a big difference between that and like what you're I was actually seeing on the field. So
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. No, I'm with you. And I think the biggest thing that I'd like to see, like, from like a fan perspective for the rest of the season is like whether it be Pinick or Eshelman steps in or Duggar, like obviously, like what good teams do is like they get better as the season goes on. And clearly that hasn't happened through five games. Like, if anything, like they've it feels like they've gotten worse, like from week five to week one. So like i if
Greg: Sure, yeah. Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: by you know, we're I'm you know, I'm gonna go to San Diego for the game over Halloween, and like at that point, like Ho i whether it's Eschelman or Pinick, like I hope they're figuring something out, like the offense is getting better. Like I've kind of like it and I think it's totally acceptable, like, for people to realize, like, we were kind of skating by with like Rogers and like these first year head co like the to be quite honest, like the success that Jimmy Rogers was able to have last season is like nothing short of remarkable, like given all of the circumstances that have faced this program for the past couple years, and like even Dickert
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: having success in a year where like they're coming out of the Pac twelve and like like all those things, like They just like to expect success to be fostered in that kind of environment, like is kind of just unrealistic, especially for first year head coaches. So like for me, I I won't really be like upset at anything as a fan perspective or feel they need to boo. Like if I feel like they like progress and get better and like like are heading in the right direction by the end of the year and feel like, hey, like, you know, Eshelman won two, three games down the stretch, two, and you know, we're we're feel good about him. on opening day next year, like to me that that
Greg: Mm.
Lucas Ingham: would be a major success as the season, you know, progresses. Like, is that kind of what you see as like what needs to happen the rest of the year? Like what do they need to do to make you feel somewhat confident in the direction heading into the into the next season?
Greg: I I think if their season ended right now, no one would feel good about the way they're headed.
Lucas Ingham: of course not. No.
Greg: but you know, the season doesn't aren't are not five games. So yeah, I mean I think like by the end of the season, you know, well I I I think one thing I'll be in interested to see is like how they fare on the road. Like I know like, you know, it it it's it's tough to compare year to year because of how different these teams have been the last several years, but they have not been good on the road the last several years. so I'll be interested to see like the role that that plays in Because because I do think that like a lot of the problems that we've talked about so far, whether it's the decision making, the confidence, the play cong, all all these different things, like that that does not really lend itself to road wins, I don't think. So
Lucas Ingham: For sure.
Greg: I'd be in interested to see just like how they fare on the road. and I think that if if they can kind of establish some sort of identity on offense by the last couple of weeks of the season, I think could be really big. I I I think if You know, 'cause like like I said, right now they don't have you know much of an identity. But if they can if they can establish something to like build off of and be realistic about, you know, let's say that Maxwell Woods, you know, ends up having a huge year. Maybe it's like, okay, like we're gonna put in a you know put a lot of resources to win retaining him. Maybe the happens are you know, maybe that comes through before he's away, and maybe, you know, someone you know, emerges a quarterback like you said, and like I don't think there has to be like something like you know, concrete and meaningful and tangible. I think that they can that can carry over carry over year to year. It's also true that as we've seen at Washington State the last several years, if any of those kinds of things I just mentioned come to pass, you're not guaranteed to get those guys back year to year.
Lucas Ingham: No.
Greg: So, you know, as I I think like, you know, as important as it is to finish the year with something meaningful to build off of, it'll be equally as important over the off season to do what you can to retain those guys that made that possible. So that's just
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: yeah.
Lucas Ingham: I just think there's the reason there's such urgency and going back to like the point I just made, I think Jacob Thorpe, I believe is his name at the Spokesman Review, who wrote like the article about like this couldn't be coming at a worse time, which is totally true. And you know, that's why, you know, I get on here and preach about attendance and the collective and NIL and all that stuff. But like this is like essentially a prove it deal for not only the Pac twelve, but for Washington State like in general. Like you get to the end of this next five years of realignment and Boise State and Oregon State have been awesome, which Like you said, Oregon State's gonna face the same problem. Like their coach, their quarterback, and the receiver are all are all already like being put in different jobs, which sucks. Like, obviously, that
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: no one thinks that's how it should be, but like Washington State over the next five years has to prove that they are a valuable brand. And like, sure, they're doing that off the field with TV and the stadium and all that stuff, but like they have to prove that they can be competitive on the field over the next five years or they're gonna be shit out of luck again. And so they they they
Greg: Yeah, totally.
Lucas Ingham: And that's why there's so much urgency and like like I get why people are frustrated like with how it's gone this season because like I think had this been normal times and all of this like this black cloud wasn't looming over the whole thing, it's like, well, it's his first year, like Leach had a bad first year. Like, let's give him some time, let him get his guys, let him get linemen that can run block and not pass block. Like you could be having all these conversations, but like there's kind of this om
Greg: Different world.
Lucas Ingham: there's this ominous black cloud that's hanging over thing. And and honestly, like it kind of like ruins what's like fun about being a college sports fan. Like I kind of like wish I could just like enjoy my team on a Saturday and not when they lose be thinking like, well we're gonna get relegated because we're losing these games. Like it kind of like it ruins a lot
Greg: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: of the enjoyment of it. And so like I get why that turns people off, but I would just flip it around and say, hey, like if you care about WCU and the program and like you're gonna watch every Saturday, then there's like every more reason to be involved in attending even if the product isn't exactly awesome because it's like this is kind of This is kinda the moment. This is kinda the do or die. Do or die moment. So
Greg: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, like I like, you know, going as as the Pac twelve was being rebuilt, there was a sense of, you know, well d you know, Washington State, Oregon State were the traditional Pac twelve members and surely they will be the leaders of this new Pac twelve. It doesn't happen automatically. It like y'all
Lucas Ingham: No.
Greg: like you don't g like you don't just get to be the leader just by virtue of being a member of the legacy Pac twelve. Like that's not how it works. And you've seen it bear out in in real time with the way this kook season is going. So
Lucas Ingham: Well and if they had any s like kind of sustainability, like if if Dickert was still here, like I know that would be like people might not like that, but like if Dickert, like who had like built the program and established himself was still here, then I think it'd be realistic to expect that. Like, hey, we've established that we're, you know, a bowl contender each and every year. We've had awesome quarterbacks, you know, we've had eight wins, we've been four and and ranked thirteenth, like we've established a winning culture here. And like with the turning over three coaches in three years, like you can't just expect that culture to magically just exist. Like Th those people are gone,
Greg: Right.
Lucas Ingham: those players are gone, the personnel's gone. Like it's just it's not the same.
Greg: Yeah, and I also think that like a lot of the circumstances that led all that to happen, that led Jake to leave for Wake Forest, that led Jimmy to leave for Iowa State, like that is just a product of the permanent reality of WSU. Like nothing about the that happening was like you know, maybe five, six, seven, ten years ago your Washington head coach leaving to go to Wake Forest would have registered as like, what on earth? Like that's weird. Like that's that's a step down almost. But that's not the world we live in anymore. We live in a world in twenty twenty six where they're on the outside looking in from from big time P four ball out obviously and the remoteness of the campus and the and the town is obviously playing a pretty outsized role in the way this is all unfolded for them. So I do think that like you know they are having to How do I say this? Like, turn around problems that are f fundamental to Was the university as a whole.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: Because, you know, a lot of the way this goes for WCU I and this is you you I mean, you know this, people listening to this know this, but the world we live in now here at WCU is if you know Maxwell Woods has an incredible year, if Tank Hawkins has an awesome year or any you know, whoever has a huge year, like they're gonna get offered over a million dollars in in the portal and it's hard as a nineteen year old, twenty year old, twenty one year old to turn that down. It's it's and it's not an indictment on, you know, their love or lack thereof for for being a coup. It's more about just like making a a solid life choice. And so, is there a
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. totally.
Greg: way to is there a way to turn that around here at W Su? Like maybe, maybe not. but yeah, I mean that they they they have to make the best out of the s the circumstances and those are not really going to change in you know, in any fundamental way. So
Lucas Ingham: Well, let me let me like before we get out of here, I'll be an arm for the collective. Like, if they really did spend seven million dollars, like that's really competitive in the new Pac twelve. Like that would be a perfectly
Greg: Totally.
Lucas Ingham: acceptable number if that is the number. and then second of all, like, they were able to retain guys like Kirby Voorhees, who played really well last season and I think was coveted a little. And Maxwell Woods did have an awesome bowl game. Granted, you know, it's Utah State in the circumstances
Greg: Totally.
Lucas Ingham: of that. Like, but you know, I you look at it and there's Like 10,000 season season ticket holders, 22,000 people have WCU license plates in the state, far more than any other custom license plate. And there's only 3,000 members of the collective. And like they do awesome TV numbers. And so my plea to like some of the older like WCU fans in my life, like my dad, like who doesn't want to get involved in the NIL based off principle or they're kind of just like they don't like it or whatever. And and my argument would just be like, if you're going to sit and watch every Saturday, why would you not want to spend $20 a month to possibly enhance that? viewing experience for you. Like it just to me it seems like a logical. Like I understand there's, you know, there's there's a principality of like people don't believe in it. But like for the sake of like if you're gonna go to the games and you're gonna watch the games, like why would you not want to try and enhance that viewing experience? And even if you just got like all the season ticket holders to be cougar collective members, like you're talking about like a a massive impact on who you're able to retain, who you're able to acquire. And like so again, like I know I sound like an arm for the collective, but like if anybody is like a WSU fan who's like mad about like the product on the field, like it's more of a call to to spend that money than to not. That's just the way I feel about it. But
Greg: Yeah, I mean I don't I don't think it's impossible to hang on to guys that that they want to or to, you
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: know, land guys that they want. I mean, you saw this off season, like you said, I mean, hanging on to those three running backs between Maxwell Woods and Kirby Voorhees and Leo Bula, that was a big deal. Like obviously
Lucas Ingham: Hundred cent.
Greg: we talked about like how little they've been able to produce so far, but we still agree that they're all they're super duper talented and getting them all back was a was a huge win for for Kirby, in his first few weeks on the job, honestly. So yeah, I mean we've seen that we've seen them, you know, offer Mateer like a million dollars. We've seen them, you know, put out well, I know,
Lucas Ingham: Poor John, man. Poor John.
Greg: I know, obviously that's that's not unfolding great for him, but you know, at the time that was and still is a a huge accompl accomplishment for them. So it's not impossible. I think there is like a feasible way to stabilize things. it's just it's just more of a year to year kind of thing and it's just, you know,
Lucas Ingham: For sure.
Greg: for people like your dad, I mean that sometimes can make something of a difference. So
Lucas Ingham: Totally. And it's like if like if I just knew that they were gonna be in this new version of the Pac twelve, like I wouldn't be bummed about that. Like I think Boise State's an awesome
Greg: Mm.
Lucas Ingham: matchup. I think Fresno is a cool program. I think like like what is like is Fresno State not more interesting than Cal or Stanford? Like to me it is, maybe not to the casual person, but like I think they're a better football program than those two schools. So like I think there's a lot of like value to the new Pac Twelve. But whether people realize that or not, or whether Boise State has higher ambitions, which I think they do, like is like Is gonna ultimately decide your future and like you just need to be at a point where in five years, like Boise State, Oregon State, and WCU are getting pulled up together if that's the reality of it, and not not just Boise State. But from what we've
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: seen the first five games, like there's no reason to believe like they could have like obviously like as presently constructed, we don't agree that like they deserve to win or that they should win, but like they could have beaten UW, they have beaten Arizona, and they could have beaten Fresno. Like those are like if you're If you execute and you do things correctly and you get a couple of things to go your way, I'm not saying they they go three and in those games or that like but if you had a a better, I don't know what I wanna call it, plan, mindset, attitude, whatever it was going into those three games, like those aren't like you didn't come away from those games thinking, my god, we had we never had a chance in those games. Like those are games that you
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Lucas Ingham: can like in year two or three of the Kirby Moore experience, like you feel like you should be competing to win those games.
Greg: Yeah. No, I mean th I mean none of those were out of reach at all. Like I think if like a few things changed here or there, like they
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: for sure could have won those games. I also, you know, on the other hand, I also think that like a lot of the problems that they experience in those games have been pretty characteristic of this group. I mean like the mist like
Lucas Ingham: yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
Greg: the mistake I d and I you know, I d I know you don't I know you don't disagree with that, but I'm just saying that like for us as close as they were in a lot of those games, it's also true that like nothing really like uncharacteristic. cause them to lose those games. Like that that's been pretty fundamental to like who they've shown themselves to be. so, you know, I don't know if those are like competing ideas, but I I see both as I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Lucas Ingham: No, no, I I totally agree with you. Like I like I said, like they're not in a place to be winning those games. But I also didn't feel like
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: I also felt like they weren't like blown off the field from a talent perspective, like they would against Ohio State. But like so the other thing,
Greg: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: and like we've gone on this massive big picture tangent, but like the the other reality of it is it's like that's kind of always been the reality. Like people think about those great leech teams and like they really struggled beating Washington, and a lot of that was because of the same issues that we're talking about right now. And the reason they had success against other teams is because of how well coached they were, the scheme, how the players executed, like mistake-free football. Like that's the reason programs like this can have success. And that's what you know Boise State has done for a long time. And so it's not like none of these problems are really new when you're playing programs like that. Like you're there's always gonna be a certain talent disadvantage, and you just have to find your ways to make up for that. But we've gone long here.
Greg: Yeah, yeah.
Lucas Ingham: This has been awesome though. massive big picture conversation. I feel like maybe a lot of coups are feeling. this way this week after the way everything's gone. Like obviously it hasn't been hasn't been a fun start. So hopefully it will be more fun moving forward. You're gonna be in Logan on Friday, Greg, where could everybody find your stuff?
Greg: Yeah, I mean all my stuff is up is on the Spokesman website if you're a print subscriber, which there are some of I guess these days that that it
Lucas Ingham: Ha ha ha.
Greg: it's always in there. I remember a few years ago I was at the corner club in in Moscow and there was a lady reading the Lewiston Tribune sports section, like a the
Lucas Ingham: Nice.
Greg: print product. So I I I took a picture and sent it to Sam who works for that paper.
Lucas Ingham: Nice, yeah.
Greg: but yeah, it it's all there, it's all online. We have our podcast, the Cooker Proud Podcast. So check that out if you're so inclined. and yeah, we'll see. You know, everybody, you know, I I think the train of fans who are like, Greg hates it. I think that's like pretty much over. I think people realize that
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: I don't hate the team. but I do think it's worth reiterating, like, selfishly, I hope like it's not fun to cover a team that's having a terrible season. like it's not and I I've been there. I've covered a one in ten Idaho State team. And I was like every every
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: game every game felt like the same game. I'm like, dude, this is just like a r like a reprise of the same game every now every every every week. So it's not fun to do. I don't I don't think any joy in them losing. but yeah, it's all it's all online, it's all on on my Twitter, it's all all in print even if you're a print subscriber. So it's it's everywhere.
Lucas Ingham: No, you do an awesome job. And I think Koog fans have come to appreciate as, you know, they're not happy with this team, the work you do to, you know, get into the nitty gritty and figure out the stuff. And hopefully the the Premiere Pro keeps coming along. We've enjoyed those breakdowns. That's been nice. And yeah.
Greg: Y th thank you, thank you.
Lucas Ingham: so thanks for your time today, Greg. We really appreciate it. And we'll see you next time and see you on Friday.
Greg: Sounds good.
Greg: Good man, how are you?
Lucas Ingham: Good. Well, it's a win or lose podcast. I say this every week. We'd like to be here after wins, unfortunately. we're not. I'm back home on the West Side after an 0-2 trip to Pullman. Not exactly how I drew it up. the Cougs are going to Utah State on Friday. You're heading down to Logan tomorrow. just general thoughts and impressions from what we saw against Fresno State and kind of what that means, looking at looking into Utah State and all the everything that's gone on this week, obviously leading up to it.
Greg: Yeah, I mean I would love to have a a longer term perspective on like, you know, the last time they looked the way they do and this predates, you know, I mean you were probably like four or five years old the last time they looked like this and I was obviously like still, you know, maybe ten or eleven years old. So it's been a long time, I guess, is the point. And I don't even have the best perspective on, you know, how long it's been since they were looking like this, but but yeah, just I mean, I don't know, whatever word you want to use to describe the way their offense looked in that game. I mean the word I kept coming back to coming back coming back to in my stuff was like ghastly. I you thought about like a boy like there's just so many ways to describe the way they looked and it was like, you know I I mean you credit them for getting the field goal thing figured out so the Jack Stevens gets them on the board, but yeah, outside of that it's been really rough. the booze, I mean you were there on the press box, you heard the booze throughout most of the second half. I mean Most of what could go wrong has gone wrong for them, just in terms of the quarterback play, the running backs not really getting much run at all in the second half. Did they have five carries the entire second half on on Saturday? And, you know,
Lucas Ingham: I know. I know.
Greg: I don't think there's you know they definitely need to use those guys a lot more, but you know, when you're getting sacked five times you end up behind the chains. It's like you're gonna run a running a r a run on second and twenty, like, you know, there's just not a lot of like solutions f for where they're at now. But, you know, they're they're they're doing one with, you know, having Kirby take over play calling duty. So y you know, you gotta do what you gotta do. they had to make a big change for sure, and that was the one that at least the first one that, you know, had to kind of come into place. Whether they switch you know, switch up the quarterback on Saturday r you know, remains to be seen. I think there's distinct possibility of that happening, but I also would not be surprised if if Finneck was out there again. So a lot a lot still to to kind of Come with a place but not a promising start for sure.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, it's hard when you change the coordinator because in if you do the coordinator and the quarterback in the same week, then you're it's like too many variables, right? It's like how do you know, you know, if if Pinnac, you know, it's just like, how do you know which one's the problem, right? It's like when you're doing a science experiment
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Lucas Ingham: in class. Like you can't change two variables at one time. I mean, they might have to. I wanna go at this offense from so many different directions because like yeah, like you said, like in recent memory, you and Jamie both brought up the Stanford game with Cam Hoard. I was a student, thankfully, so I don't remember much of that second half. Trying to think of some other some other ones that w other ones that got thrown out there.
Greg: But even like that like that's the point. Like even in their like even in their worst offensive performances in in the last several years, like they at least scored a touchdown on offense.
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: You know, the Stanford game that you brought up, Wyoming in twenty f twenty four.
Lucas Ingham: Oof. Yeah, that was
Greg: I'm tr I'm trying to think of of a I mean even like North Texas last year where they got boat raced. I mean, they at least scored like a garbage time touchdown when Zevi. No, I know, I know, I know.
Lucas Ingham: Right. But that's cause all the interceptions and stuff, like those are like yeah.
Greg: I c I I know that was kind of an outlier, but I'm saying that like even in the like the worst, like most forgettable games, they've at least managed to put like an of a touchdown on the board on offense. So for that not to come to pass on this one. Obviously like you get to the second half, you get to the fourth quarter, it's like a whatever. Like they look terrible. But, you know, you would I for their sake they would have liked to come away with at least like something that resembles something to build off of, but
Lucas Ingham: Well, there was never really garbage time because they were kinda in the game until there was like with four minutes left miraculously. I mean, like it was like you said, yeah,
Greg: Theoretically they were.
Lucas Ingham: theoretically, but I mean you said in I think it it was you or Jamie in the press box that like it's a borderline, like heroic effort from the defense for them to be even remotely competitive in this game. The the question I wanted to start with with you, I mean, you've seen them through fall camp, and there was kind of a tweet that resurfaced from one of the last skirmishes of fall camp Matt Miller said the standard wasn't good enough, blah, blah, blah. You've seen them through Fall Camp, you've seen them through five games. I want you to try and describe what you think they're trying to accomplish on offense. What what do they want their identity to be? Right. Yeah, a hundred percent.
Greg: I don't know if they know that. I don't know if they know the answer to that question, which is the bigger issue for them. I mean, I don't know, man. I mean, it it really, you know, for as much and that's and and I said this on our podcast too, but like for them to or if I'm sorry, for Kirby to change up the play callers duties after this game is a little bit ironic because for all the times that you felt like or at least I felt like the play calling was an issue, or at least the biggest issue in the game, the first night game here was not really did not fall in that category. I thought it
Lucas Ingham: No.
Greg: was just top to bottom lack of execution from the snap mishap that resulted in a fumble to the interception to you know some of the I guess there was some of the play con stuff with the running backs really getting there, but again, like you end up with sacks, you end up with negative plays, you end up with receivers running routes short of the sticks on third down, and it's like what could a better play call have done in a lot of these situations if the guys are just not executing? it sounds cliche, but that's a lot of what's a lot of what you saw. So
Lucas Ingham: No, so do you I I I'm kinda curious because I agree with you. I think the first two games the play calling left a lot to be desired. Like you think back to the four straight runs against Kansas State and just not putting your people in position to like and like Pinnacle's tasked with so much with the defensive lines, but like these Arizona and Fresno State games, I look at there was a play, it was five fifty-six to go in the first quarter, and they had a second and short. It's the one where Leaf calls out the free rusher and and you put it in your little package on your spokesman review
Greg: yeah, yeah.
Lucas Ingham: too. And He has three receivers open. He has BG on the left. He has I think it's blood coming across the middle. And he has Woods in the flat, you know, one on one with the D B, like where he's in space and can make a play. And he just turns his head from the free rusher and just
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: like takes the sack. Like, do you like I I put in my postgame, and you know, I don't wanna, you know, dog on somebody when they're down, but I it was a pretty unplayable performance. Like that's it, that's something that a quarterback, regardless of what you're, you know. We think the physical limitations are with throwing the ball down the field. Like you just have to get the ball out in that situation. And you're likely picking up a first down at midfield and all of a sudden now you're third and long and you know, you're behind the chains again.
Greg: Yeah, no, those are the kinds of decisions that really I mean, among the many problems that I think that you see in K independent right now, the decision making I think is near the top for sure. Because there is the play you brought up, there was a play in later on in the game where he had a chance, he made one guy miss on a play action play, then had a chance to throw it away because he was out of the pocket and then just like does not. And then like I said, next thing you know, you got second and twenty from round like ten or whatever it was. So like Those are the kinds of and then and then there's another one. There's another one that I think I I I also included in a little like video that I put together. which by the way I'm more and more about Premiere Pro when I want to put stuff like that together. So that's been a cool thing. Thank you. It's that's been a cool thing
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, it looked good.
Greg: to learn on the fly. but that one actually I I I I like so much of this is hard to it's not hard to talk about, but you have to be careful, I think, because you and me don't know the actual play calls and the game
Lucas Ingham: Hundred percent.
Greg: plans. Like and I think that there was one example of that and I think where the announcer kinda called him out on bailing from a clean pocket. It
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: it also could have been a situation where like, you know, that to me, like in hindsight, I kinda was like, well, like maybe that was kinda drawn up that way where like if it doesn't see if like he doesn't see one read, maybe he
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: dashes so I g I guess the point is that like, you know, he he could make a lot of better calls, but it's also true that we don't always know the gameplay, we don't always know the calls, so we don't always come to the right conclusions. but, you know, some of these decisions are th these have been throughout every game. Like that's why I picked Fresno Fresh North State to win that game is because
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: after the Arizona game, after the Duquesne game, and then the two before that against UW and K State, like it became clear that the opponent, as great as they were with UWK State and Arizona, like, they were not playing as big a role as just
Lucas Ingham: No.
Greg: the bad decisions were. Like it didn't matter in those in those mistakes that he th that he made. who the opponent was because they have it against Duquesne, they have it against Arizona. So that's
Lucas Ingham: Right. Mm-hmm.
Greg: why I feel like it it it it's risky to r keep rolling him out there because even in a game that profiles as winnable like Fresno State or the first half against Duquesne, I mean like the opponent has not mattered nearly as much as just that like what's going on in his head and the decisions he makes. So that's why I will be fascinated to see who they roll out there here on Friday night.
Lucas Ingham: Do you think like it's an FCS to FBS processing thing? Because something I always think about with Cam was like he wasn't a great decision maker either, but he was so physically talented that he like got away with a bunch of stuff. And so it
Greg: Mm, yeah.
Lucas Ingham: kind of feels like watching some of what Caden Pennick was doing at UC Davis, it was kind of the same thing on that level. Like he he was faster than everyone else. Like he could get the ball to places where like he could get away with the some of these plays that he should be throwing the ball away. Like he was getting away with that at the FCS level. And now here, like clearly, clearly that's not happening to the same level. And he hasn't adjusted to that yet. Some of that is like, you know, I've talked about, you know, it's a tough landing spot to have those three out of those first four power four games. Like maybe if he had, you know, an easier landing, he would have progressed. But right now it feels like he's regressing. So do you feel like that's like one of those things where it's like, like the game's just so much faster at the FPS level and and he's not adjusting to that?
Greg: Yeah, I there's definitely part of that for sure, because yeah, you go from playing like the one play that people got excited about when he committed here was when they were playing like a preseason game against like Mercer and he made like eight guys mess and ran for a touchdown. Like
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: and those are the kinds of plays you can make against FCS opponents for sure. But I also feel like and you know, I think at the beginning of the season I felt a little like I wasn't a hundred and ten percent confident in this take. Because I didn't really know how it would play out the rest of season. But like I have I have said for a little bit that I that I do wonder about the physical size that he has and what difference
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: like what effect that has on his game and the effect that has on his decision making. Because I mean I've you know, we've only talked to him a handful of times here, which by the way, that's its own conversation. The fact that he's not talked
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: after these last two games. But we we talked to him once in sp in Springball and more of like a scrum situation and then once in in fall camp when he got the job. And Like I'm taller than Caden Pennick and I'm not really I'm like six foot even. So which, you know, No Fafita is shorter than that and he's all he's obviously awesome. There's been tons of great quarterbacks that have been shorter. So it doesn't have to be a problem, but I think in his case, it kind of is. Like I think there's like a component of like at the FCS level, to bring it back to what you were talking about, at the FCS level, you know, I I I I've talked to to athletes in the past, hey man, like what's the biggest difference from going to FCS ball To FS ball. And they and you know, they always talk about how the talent level is more or less not the same, but like there's not as big of a gap between that. But where the big gap is like the literal size of the guys that you're going
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: up against. Like the like the the talent level might be somewhat comparable, but you go from FCS to FPS and the best guys are not as small anymore. I they're
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: literally bigger and faster and stronger, even even if the talent is is still somewhat comparable. So I think anyway, I think just like you you you you go from that you y you you go from, you know, trying to evade guys that are, you know, more that are just literally smaller and then go to the FPS level and all of a sudden it's like not as easy to navigate. I mean, I made the comparison on our podcast to like when me and Jamie will go play basketball at the rec center here sometimes, there are there
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: are tons of passes that I like get used to making that are easily makeable, you know, nine times out of ten against regular people like you and I. Well, then all of a sudden it you you You get to April and May and the actual basketball players here at WSU are coming and they read that like a book and they pick it off. I'm like, Jesus, man, like this is not what I'm used to. So, you
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: know, maybe there's a little bit of that going on. But, you know, that's that's the bet that they made on him. Like, you know, as
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: as much as we talk about how difficult a transition that is, and I totally believe in how how hard that could be, that's that's part of the deal. I mean, they they
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: they paid him however much money to make that transition and it's not It's not really you know, it's it's not an unheard of thing to do. I mean, that's a lot of transferring nowadays as, you know, so and or so called like calling guys up from the FCS level.
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And that's that's part of the deal. And if it's not working, then you know, you gotta pivot. So we'll see how it goes.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Well, I mean, you think about Cam Moore and Zevi, two guys who started their careers at the FCS level, and obviously, you know, they're taller guys, so that doesn't really fit in the same example, but they were able to make that adjustment over time. And maybe we could have me and you could have learned something from the at the wreck because we got smoked off the court last week when I was over there in Pullman. That was
Greg: Yeah, I was also I didn't I was also getting getting over a cold, so I literally think I was like my like condition in my li I couldn't breathe I could breathe fine, but I wasn't like in as great a shape if I as I was if I was healthy, so maybe that was
Lucas Ingham: Well and also there's nothing you can do when everyone just makes every shot against you. I mean that's one of those ones where you just gotta tip your count.
Greg: I know. I'm like, dude, like I hope he doesn't think everybody here is like making everything all the time. Like that was ridiculous, dude. Like
Lucas Ingham: It seemed like it. But anyway, I mean back to p Pinnack and like yes, there's the physical limitations and stuff, but part of the reason I felt comfortable, you know, like we don't know the plays, we don't know what the looks are and all that stuff. But like for Leaf to be, I mean, and I get it, he's an opinionated guide, but like you rewatched the game too. It's like they were pretty on him the whole time. And Leaf even had a piece in Kook Fan, you know, later on about how they should maybe look at a different quarterback after the game. I'm like, for him to look at that and see it, there was another one. At the end when they're driving down to get that field goal at the end of the half where Clemens is kind of slow coming back to the play and Leaf calls it out. He's like, I think he's kind of annoyed because he was open down the field. I wanted to find an alternate angle if that's so bad. But Pinnock does what he's great at. He extends the play and then he steps up and then he checks it sh down short of the line to gain when maybe Clemens was open over the middle of the field. And I I
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: just think when you're looking at how awesome this defense has been, that if you could just get, you know, two or three plays. Kind of like Fresno did on Saturday, that that could be the difference in the offense. And so if somebody else on the roster gives them a better chance to just, you know, maybe they're not awesome. I don't maybe the ceiling of this offense isn't very high. But it there, there's no way that this can be the ceiling of this offense with the as put presently constructed. Like they have to be able to find something else on this roster, or with the coaching staff, whatever, like for them to be this bad would be shocking.
Greg: Yeah, I mean I it's tough because as as, you know, what's the word I'm looking for? As right as it might seem to, you know, be looking other options at quarterback, I'm also not convinced that Psp Pinnock is not the best quarterback on this team. I I g I
Lucas Ingham: Hundred percent. Yeah.
Greg: think that's still like, you know that's why none of us are really surprised that he earned that the, you know, designation coming out of Fall Camp. I the I still think that that's like a distinct possibility because you look at The other two guys with Owen Eselman and Julian Duggar, you know, they're they're plenty talented in their own ways, but Eselman has not played the stab of college football. And Julian Duggar's main weakness is throwing the ball. Like, which is not a good starting
Lucas Ingham: Throwing the ball. Yeah. Yeah.
Greg: place for a quarterback. And he has plenty of pocket presence issues in the same way that Caden Finning does, at least from what we were able to see in Fall Camp this year. So like you know, you're rolling the dice if you roll out either of those guys. And with Duggar, I think it's rolling the dice you know, in something of a similar way to the way they have been with Pinick. It's like, you know, can we trust this guy to make the right decision? Can we trust this guy to hang in the pocket?
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: which are all the same issues that we have with Caden Pinnock right now. So and then it's like, well, is does that turn things over to Owen Ashelman? I think he has I think he has the best arm on the team. But like we just mentioned, he has yet to play a c a snap of college football and for a guy that's probably like nineteen years old, do you want to have him roll out there like, hey man We know you have now played a staff of college football, but now it's your job to like revive this offense. And not only at
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: home, on the road, at night. Like good luck, dude. Like yeah, on a short
Lucas Ingham: On a short week. Yeah.
Greg: week, like good luck. So like, you know, I don't there's no easy answer. I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, if I if there was a gun to my head, I would say that Pinnacle would be out there on Friday night. You know, but you know,
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.
Greg: I've I've been around before, so we'll see.
Lucas Ingham: Right. I I mean I just it's like me and you, I was listening to we talked before or like it on after the first day of fall camp, and we were kind of like projecting, like obviously, like in in this bared out in like the preseason poll that you guys did, like there's a high ceiling there, but there was also and and that's taken place on one side of the ball, but you were also like, Well, there's there's a pretty low floor too. And and that's we were kind of more thinking that would be on the defensive side of the ball with the secondary and all that stuff. I don't think anybody It's just so hard to imagine going into the season that they'd like in the 120s on offense. Like you would think, like, regardless
Greg: No.
Lucas Ingham: of what the physical limitations are, what we think of the receivers, what we think of Pinnock, like for them to not be able to, you know, score more than eight points per game on offense is like pretty bewildering. So I mean, do you think some
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: of that goes into like the preparation that the offensive staff is giving Caden Pinnock? Like, do you think maybe he's not being like coached up well enough? Because it it it just seems like something like When I talked to Nathan Carroll from Boise State in Matt Miller at the receivers, he said, I mean, they like led the Mountain West in drops. They were like top five in drops. And like people were like, they were like Boise State fans were almost like celebrating, you know, him out the door. And so is there just a a coaching element, not even just the X's and O's, the front the play calling, like a preparation of getting the players ready to execute, whatever that plan may be. Like, do you think maybe that's part of what's missing?
Greg: Yeah, I mean this sounds like a cop out, but I think like first I just goes back to like we don't know what the actual game plan is, so it's impossible
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: to s it's impossible to say, you know, with any real conviction the effect that that has on the way these games are going. but yeah, I just like he I I I think it has more to do with like the culmination of just like the way the season has gone to this point. And I
Lucas Ingham: Yes.
Greg: think like, you know, some of this has to probably has to do and again I this is pure speculation. I don't I don't I'm not in this brain, but like you know, you see the culmination of how of how this has gone where like you've had an interception in all five games, you have six total turnovers. Your offense as a whole has nine total turnovers. You're one of the worst teams offensively in all these different kinda kinds of categories.
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And I think for a guy that's twenty years old, like that's gonna get to you. Like that that's that's just human
Lucas Ingham: Hundred percent.
Greg: a human nature. I mean that would get to you and I if we were in that spot too.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, you're getting boot at home. Like there's all kinds of like yeah.
Greg: Yeah, like there there's all kinds of way this this can really rattle you and there's no shame in that happening. I guess obviously you're paid to, you know, get it done, but at the end of the day
Lucas Ingham: Yeah that yeah.
Greg: there's so it's it's kind of a balance in that way. But, you know, outside of not really knowing what the game plan is, it's hard to say, but you know, I I I do think that like, you know, there's he's also he's also just left a lot out there like playing the game. I mean, there there was a third down pass to Jack Peterson that he missed, I was behind him. there is there is there's like I think there was like in the first half there was like an out route to Brandon can have some more of these that just like the passes was not there. obviously he do he according to PFF, which again we have our you know, I'm not so sure about the grades as as we as we go
Lucas Ingham: Mm.
Greg: here, but has plenty of utility and some of like the the depth
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: of passes and the concepts. He didn't attempt a single deep pass, twenty yards or more
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: against Fresno State. Which, you know, maybe you're like, okay, that's obviously his his biggest weakness. Maybe it's a good thing that he didn't try to do more than it's capable of. But the
Lucas Ingham: Mm, yeah, I mean
Greg: refusal or the inability to stretch the ball downfield, you see the way the p the picture is kinda coming together of just like the way this guy does not really want doesn't want to or doesn't like trust his ability to stretch the ball downfield and you see where it's led them. So
Lucas Ingham: Well, yeah, I mean it's definitely it's definitely a confidence issue. Cause like the one I signaled out where he has gosh, I'm forgetting if it if it's blood or not, but you know, I I think it was like a post route or whatever, and he steps up and like it's kind of like a no-lose situation. Like you throw it up, it's either gonna be long, like the D B like he's has a like some level of separation. So he might not catch it, but you know it's not gonna be an interception. And like he clearly
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Lucas Ingham: just doesn't have the confidence and like like the Jack Peterson one that's behind him, there's one that's low to BG on the side. I think you maybe mentioned that. But I just look at the whole preparation of the offense. Like Maxwell Woods, who both of us really like and a lot of us think could be running back one, like bouncing it outside and losing four yards. Or like a lot of these plays, it looks like BG's like not where Caden Pinnock thinks he's gonna be. Like that's happened a couple of times between Arizona and Fresno State. Like it's just as like like it's not just Caden Pinnock who's failing to execute. Like there's like a level of execution failure from from everybody in in, you know, to Like it's that's the coordinator's job and the head coach's job to to a certain extent to like get everybody on the same page and it feels like it feels like nobody's on the same page, which is like what's
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: really jarring about it. It's not like you couldn't find one person, like you can't signal out one person like, all right, Nick Bachin, maybe like they've done a really great job. But outside of that,
Greg: Mm.
Lucas Ingham: you're like, who who has had a season to to say, well, they're you know, they're the one the one holding
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: this offense together.
Greg: Yeah. I mean, you look back, I mean, you mentioned how you know, Matt Miller leaving Boys Estate was not exactly met with, you know, great sadness or whatever by Boyce State. He had not called plays, he was never calling plays at Boyce State, he hadn't called plays at twenty nineteen at Montana State. So you look at some of that, you look at some of the way like I said, his his exit was received at Boise State and some of the numbers behind the wide receivers, you know, how they fared at Boise State. yeah, I d I just think there's like there's just the there's there there's plenty of blame to go around. I also think that
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: like no one has had a good year on offense for them this year. Like there's no one I mean, you mentioned Nick Backen being great. I Ashton Tripp has has has had a pretty good year at left tackle outside of like the K State game. But no one has had like I don't you know, I don't want to I don't mean to like generalize it too much and to kind of just, you know, let him off the hook. But the the truth is like no one has had a a a great year. I mean everybody's been
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: you know, had had had up and down games. People have you know, Daniel Blood dropped the fourth down pass in the in the last
Lucas Ingham: Yes.
Greg: drive against Fresno State. Like everybody has had some hand in the blame and so, you know,
Lucas Ingham: Hundred percent.
Greg: it's a f it's a fine line between, you know, recognizing that and also like also recognizing that that Caden has has has Pinka's not had a great year at all, you know, in his own right.
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: but it's just been a a top to bottom, just everybody has just not not been there.
Lucas Ingham: Well, this is the way I phrased it, because to be clear, like I think like not that I think like I re you know, reevaluating after fall camp because you never know, like what you've seen against them against other teams, like clearly I don't think they have like the highest ceiling, like they're gonna be out here scoring thirty points per game. But like I can pretty confidently say that like I feel like they're capable of a lot more than what they're doing right now as a unit. Like, regardless of what we think of the physical limitations, like I know they are capable of accomplishing more. And so it would almost be better if they were bad. I think the problem with Saturday Is it felt more like incompetence than lack of talent. Like it didn't feel like,
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: my gosh, like we always talk about that Apple Cup where you it's like Boston and Coleman and it's like, well, you did what you could, but the physical talent just took over. It would almost feel better if it was like that. And and that's not what it feels like at all. It feels like whatever the plan in place is, and and I go back to, you know, time you talk about the play calling and the the lack of rushes or whatever. It felt like the same thing happened in the Arizona game where You know, you talk about an inexperienced play caller, an inexperienced quarterback, and like the moment sort of got to them where it was like, well, we're down in this game. And then they just like completely abandoned the rush. There was no and and these offenses don't look like what Kirby Moore did at Fresno State or at Missouri. And some of that has to do with, you know, the tight ends are banged up, and I know like they get the tight ends involved and that kind of thing. But like for them to just completely abandon the run against Fresno State in the second half, like I don't think we really realized that
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: as it was happening. But I think that's part of the reason. And when Kirby spoke to you guys on Monday, like he tried to sneak it in there super quick, like, and I'm gonna be taking over the play calling. And you were like, wait, wait, wait, what? Like you're gonna take over the play calling? Like, he definitely seems
Greg: No.
Lucas Ingham: like it's not a decision that he wanted to make, clearly, but clearly something was not going in the way that he he felt bad enough about the way the games were progressing and how the play calling was progressing that he felt like he had to step in and do something.
Greg: Yeah, I mean they had they they had to make a big change. and yeah, I mean you look at just like how much an offensive minded guy he like I wasn't totally like when he f was first hired and that whole process was kind of unfolding, like I wasn't sure if he would actually hire an O C at all. Just because of
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: like the offensive background and, you know, offensive brain he has throughout his his his career. but yeah, he ends up you know, hiring, you know, a longtime buddy of his from because they they played at Boise State Boise State together in like the early 2010s and they've been friends for you know for forever. So yeah, just I I I d I just think that like the fact that no one that there was a there was a reason to wonder if he would even hire an OSC because of how strong an offensive mind he has. Now you fast forward and you're like, okay, like maybe, you know, he's an offensive guy. Like why was he ever kinda delegating these opportunities to begin with? and you know, I don't think I don't like you said, I don't think it's all been on Matt Miller. You there there there's plenty of
Lucas Ingham: Hundred percent.
Greg: blame to go around. But you do look at like the reason why he came up so fast, reason why Kirby came up so fast is because his offense were always awesome.
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: You know, obviously there's there's something to be said for the personnel he at Friends of State with Jay Kayner and then Missouri with Amon Hardy and Cody Strader and guys like that. Like that's always it always helps to have good players, obviously. But
Lucas Ingham: Right. Well but he's involved in recruiting those players too though. I mean you gotta give him cred like, yeah.
Greg: yeah, yeah, totally. So so I do wonder and you know, I'll be fascinated to see like you know, what I'll be really inter interested to see is now that he has like, you know, whatever increasing measure of control over the offense, what kind of effect does that have on the actual personnel and the guys that they roll out there? And like, is he true is is is what he's doing truly just calling plays, or is it more like, Hey, I'm gonna have a real hands on approach to who we're rolling out there and How does that change things for them overall? So
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I mean it'll be s like I I wish, you know, it's one of those things you wish you were in the building to know like how involved was he it would before because it it kind of to me has been shocking because it feels like there's been a disconnect between Moore and Miller and Pinnock, just like the whole like for the third five games, like they're not like all on the same page, which I think is probably the biggest issue. But, you know, you look at it and he he's the head coach. It's he's a first time head coach, he's trying to, you know, be the the the head man of this team. But like Trent Bray, like I think we can pretty safely say, like, he's got the defense down. And I'm sure Kirby Moore's like trying to learn from him and like have his input and all this stuff. But like it seems like where his mind is needed, and part of the reason that he was brought in is you know, on the offensive side of the ball. And and and that's something that like, you know, he's gonna learn from. And like you guys talked about, like someone asked a question, like, like questions about Kirby Moore as a head coach. Like he is, you know, learning this. For the first time too. And so like I'm sure he would go back and change and probably be more involved in the offense if he got a second opportunity on it. And you know, maybe they would look, you know, significantly better. And then that helps Matt learn. Like it just seems like it's safe to say that I think the way they've whatever their plan was going into this season that that was a miss. And I'll be interested to see like, do you think like 'cause I I I do think a lot of a lot of what Pinnock does wrong, especially against Fresno State, is like fairly correctable. Like it's like hitting your easy reads, like your outside throws, like stuff like that. Like, is that something that can change in the middle of a season? Or is that something that goes back? I mean, like, obviously it can't all flip overnight, but like
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: some of these things seem, again, not being a coach, not you know, ever played quarterback at the FPS level, some of these things seem like things like, okay, like we can watch the tape and figure these out.
Greg: I think that's what the rest of their season really hinges on, honestly, is like whether these problems turn out to be ones he can solve and or are they just unsolvable. And are they unsolvable to the extent that you decide to send things up a quarterback? Like I think that that's that's what it is and I just like, you know, you always leave the you always want to leave the door open for them to turn things around because the reality is they've have seven more games to play. Like I you know, they've a they have a lot more games to play and who knows how things will unfold the rest of the season. But the truth is like you look at these first five games and if you're being real I at least for me, like be being realistic, I don't I don't really see anything in his game that would give me confidence to say he could turn this around in a consistent way week to week. Which, you know, we we talked earlier about how the turnovers have n have have not really been a product of the opponent, so much as they've been a product of his just decision making regardless of the opponent. And that's the reason why I feel like, you know, if if I had to lean one way or another, I would lean to the s to the c you know, idea of them not being super correctable because like I said, the opponent has not really has not really made the difference in these play I mean I against Duke he threw this like terrible deep all that that was into almost triple coverage that g that got picked off. Which is like it it's funny that that pick is like been it's it's like lost footage now because the broadcast was not on the game at the time.
Lucas Ingham: I know. Yeah.
Greg: but yeah, I don't And you know, I I think that there are wa like, if if he was ever gonna turn things around, like if there's a world where he does improve and he looks more c sharp and decisive and he's under control, like the world where that exists is probably the world where Kirby Moore is calling plays and he's more involved in the offense.
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: You know, if that was ever gonna happen, I think it would happen as a result of Kirby doing what he's doing now. So if there's ever a reason for optimism, I think that's where you see it. And you maybe that'll come to pass. I mean, we've been pretty, you know, s or at least I've been pretty cynical on this podcast so far. But I think that there's
Lucas Ingham: Hehehehe.
Greg: there's plenty of reason, you know, we we you know, if if we're gonna prop up Kirby as being this like awesome offensive mind, which I think he really is, then you
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Yeah.
Greg: also have to recognize the possibility for them for them to throw things around as a result of him being you know, being more involved. So
Lucas Ingham: Totally. And I I just think it's one of those things I think is totally fair for you to be cynical. Cause you know, up until the Fresno State game, I just like it was so hard to evaluate. We talked about that. Like I wanted to see what it looked like against Fresno State. And I think that's why the move happens after Fresno State, 'cause it's like I think it's like, all right, let's see how it looks, like, let's get the rushing game going, which is something we talked about, which clearly didn't happen because they just didn't even really run the ball at all. But I think after that it was like, okay, like this is something that that needs to change here. And I don't know, it i I I think you're totally right that they can turn it around, but it's one of those things where like I've kind of adjusted the way I think about sports in general a lot because of WCU basketball. And I would always put up these stats about like, well, the three point defense, like it can't be this bad, like they're getting bad three point shooting luck, like it can't just keep happening. And then it just would always happen. And I was like, Okay, well,
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: until they prove otherwise that they can't that something's gonna be different, then why should I believe that something's gonna change until I actually see it on the field? So I don't think it's
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: out of the realm of possibility that they come out and score like twenty four points against a pretty bad Utah State game and team and like the defense can help out. And I don't think that's out of the realm of possibility. I just kinda it's kind of a I'll believe it when I see it sort of thing.
Greg: Yeah, it's I think it's like in baseball when a guy's throwing like f five straight balls maybe and you wanna wait to see a strike until you, you know, swing the bat again.
Lucas Ingham: It's exactly what it's yeah. Great analogy.
Greg: so I I think that's kind of where I'm at with this team. Like like on on Fridays, well well I guess it'll be a Thursday 'cause the Friday game, but on fr on before the game I'll do my preview stuff and I always have like a prediction, start little pr prediction story and until they turn this around in a meaningful way, like I'm not gonna pick them to win any of these games.
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: so and I think that's just that's just kind of the way you have to look at it. Like until like you said, until they turn it around I don't really see any reason to believe in their ability to to do it. Like I think it's possible. You know like I said
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.
Greg: I don't I don't think it's like totally out of the realm of possibility but until you see and not only 'cause that's the thing like You know, Arizona, we saw them score twenty-four. I think part of that had to do with the fact that on the BG touchdown the guy fell down. so maybe you're looking at
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. and they gotta pick six too.
Greg: well, I and you in the pick six, so really like if you take those two plays out, you know, I'm not trying to discredit Yeah,
Lucas Ingham: They score ti No, no, that's totally fair.
Greg: exactly. So like the point that I'm trying to make is that like you look at the twenty-four and you know, okay, like that, that's not that bad. But you look at it a little more detail and you look at like hey what is really consistent and what is translatable from this game to the next, there wasn't a whole lot there. So that's what I'm trying to say, as as far as this game goes, is that like if they show us something that that feels translatable, that feels consistent and meaningful, then maybe we can start changing the way we talk about that. But until then I think this is a fair conversation to have.
Lucas Ingham: just one last thing on the offense before we we'll wrap up with something positive. So we're not ca we because we've been
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: a little bit of downers this one, but which is totally justified. But do you
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: think it it's more been more impactful on the offense that Freeman has been out, you know, 10 plays into the season, or that the you know, they've been banged up at tight end? Because, you know, I kind of went back because I was having like some fan copium after that Fresno State game, like, my gosh, like Kirby Moore, head coach. And so I went back and started watching all of his offenses, and I was like, well, you know, like. I it just like maybe the personnel isn't what he needs to run this offense the way he wants to and I think maybe people are under
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Lucas Ingham: crediting like the importance of having those tight ends that are are kind of a a stallworth of what he likes to do.
Greg: Yeah, like the that's been a big part of his identity. I think the way my brain goes right away is to Tony Freeman's absence because of his ability to
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: stretch the field. You know, I like he I don't know how many I mean he obviously he he went down pretty early in the Apple Cup, but you saw like he he he was he is their best receiver by far, but I think you think about the way he's able to stretch the field vertically and you think about Well,
Lucas Ingham: Would that have mattered if they couldn't get the ball to him there though?
Greg: I well right, but I also think that like part of Pinnock's like inability inability to do that is like partially tied to the fact that he doesn't have a guy whose best trait is doing that. Or one of his best traits is
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, that's fair.
Greg: doing that. You know what I mean? I I I think maybe his deep ball acumen looks a little better if he has a guy who's actually really skilled and polished
Lucas Ingham: Sure.
Greg: at doing that kind of thing. So I think that you know it's it doesn't always have to do with w with the D pass. I think s you know, like having a guy that has credible speed and route running and that kind
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: of thing You know, we talk a lot about how at first you might be tempted to believe that Tony Freeman and Thank Coggins can be, you know, interchangeable.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: But the reality is you have in Tony Freeman, like we talked about, a guy that's polished, that's experienced, that had no that can run routes in a really sharp way. and you know, n not having a guy that could do that and not having a guy that could really open up the field, open up the middle of the field in particular, I think has been a big deal for them. And you know, it's It's it's a fine line because as much as that is the case, it's also true that they have not had he's been out f since the last, you know, four and
Lucas Ingham: Mm-hmm.
Greg: you know, three fourths of of of the season, so or games I should say. So it's th they've had time to really shape their offense around
Lucas Ingham: Adjust, yeah.
Greg: yeah, shape their offense around him being out, and it just hasn't happened. So, you know, because of how how they've had more time to adjust to that being the case, then I think any different set like Trey Electra being out there. 'Cause he only played like eight or eight or ten snaps, I think, against Fresno State. and you know, he's he's a great pass catcher. Like he is by far the best pass catching tight end. And, you know, maybe and that was just his first game back from injuries, so he that's probably why he didn't play as much. But and you know, so maybe we see a real on a world on Friday where he's more involved where he there he's looking for, you know, whoever the quarterback is gets him more involved in the offense. But yeah, I th I think my immediate reaction is just seeing the way that the field could open up if they had Tony Freeman. But, you
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: know, like I said, it's also true that they have not had him for the majority of season and you gotta adjust. So
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I mean it's sort of crazy that I mean I just go back to thinking about like how do you get the deep ball involved, which has obviously like been talked about at nauseum, but like outside of the guy the Arizona defender falling down on that fourth down, like isn't it like it it feels sort of crazy that they haven't like scheme like like Fresno State had three plays where they got a deep ball open because of deception or like you know, you
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Lucas Ingham: just feel like through five games, like there would be somebody who's just, you know, wide open down the field. Like we saw like Brandon Gana BG in the in the you know, in the spring the end conclusion of the spring game, like through five games, like for a defense to like perfectly play you and not have anybody like just running open down the field to like get a deep ball opportunity, like that part feels
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: almost as crazy to me. So
Greg: Yeah, I mean I think like these things make sense w when we talk about them, they make sense in theory. But on the field you have a quarterback who's very obviously not super confident, doesn't have the trust in that
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: deep ball as you would hope you would have. so that's kind of where my head is at on that. I think they ran this one play against Fresno State, I believe it was in the second half, where they had thrown a bunch of out routes and stick routes, which is what he's best at, Pinick is best at. But then Daniel Blood runs this route where it's like he kinda runs out route. The DB kind of kind of you know tries to jump that, but then he makes a double move and runs back upfield and then they get like a twenty seven yard pass. So there are like ways to scheme a r you know, scheme guys open. I think that was a great example of that happening.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, yeah. what you're talking about.
Greg: But it's also like, you know, how many of those do you feel like you can trust him to throw? 'Cause that was a pretty like that like that was a pretty easy not not easy throw to make, but it's it's a it's a great route, it's a great concept. You know, he's probably, you know, if if if that's like that's that's a good throw to make. I think where you could where it goes wrong is just having him in a situation where he has to make, you know, two or three different reads that are all further down the field, and that's where the decision making kinda come back to haunt you. That's where some of that you know, pocket presence comes into play. So I think that that's kinda where that, you know, that that's kinda is.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, and I just go but I just go back to like Fresno State and like they really had a lot of and they didn't have not have very much success moving the ball outside of their three, you know, kind of gadget plays. And 'cause like we're
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: sitting there in the first half as, you know, Mandal, like he had open receivers downfield and kind of the same thing. Like they just he was not hitting them. I think there was like
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: four that easily could have been big plays, and then the three that end up clicking
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: for them are are are the gadget plays. So it'll be I'll be interested to see how they play against Boise State. If I was a betting man, which I am, I think Boise State has a has a good chance to to pull away in that one. so we'll
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: see. if if it is Eshelman, do you think there's maybe a little bit of like a he he might be unpolished, maybe he's gonna turn the ball over. But like I think this is something Jamie signaled out. Like cu Zevi comes in and he clearly just had more command, he had more control. Clearly they like kind of rallied around him, believed in him. And so maybe even if Eshelman's not the best quarterback on the team, because I think we we kind of agree that Pinnock is, you know, maybe the most talented, but or or the most ready, polished, whatever you want to say. Like, do you think if they went to a guy like Eshelman, there's just a little bit more juice that, you know, they think he can even if there's, you know, maybe some
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: some unfinished parts of his game that like, hey, like he's gonna go out there and play maybe with a little bit of reckless confidence, which is kind of what they need.
Greg: Yeah. I mean I think there's something to be said for making decisions that keep the locker room together. Like even if you feel like Owen Elshelman or even Julian Duggar is not your best option at that point, what you really cannot afford is to have infighting, you can't afford to have the locker room splinter apart as a result of decisions you make personnel wise. So I think if like if there's again, I this is me just purely speculating, but like Let's say all the guys in the locker room like love Owen Eshelman. And I'm sure they do. Like I've I've heard he was a great teammate and people love him. Like if if all the guys in the locker room really
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, same.
Greg: are pushing for Owen Eshelman, then maybe that's the guy you go with for that reason. Like like maybe there's not
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: really much reason to believe in like, you know, like it it you know, it's a tough spot. You know, on the road, like we said, on the road, middle of the season, there's a lot of pressure on a on on a on a you know, nineteen year old kid. But if that's the decision that's gonna ki you know, get the guys going and keep the locker room together Which, you know, will help them for the rest of the season, then maybe that's the call you have to make. so and you know, like you said, I th I think there's something to be said for also just like really not knowing what you don't know at that age and that and that level of
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: inexperience. Like maybe you just go out there and just like, you know, eff it, Darius Clemens down there somewhere. I'm just gonna chuck it, you know what I mean? Like maybe there's something to be said for that, is that having
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, yeah.
Greg: that recklessness. Because I think that's if there's a if there's a big difference between him and Pinnac right now, it's that like, you know, one guy doesn't really have any you know, there's nothing really I mean, there there's something to lose, but one guy's obviously been been really gone through the ringer and confidence wise, and one guy who's just gonna
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: he might be able to go out there and just be like, who cares? I'm just gonna, you know, chuck it and we'll see we'll see how it falls.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I mean you gotta keep the team together. I mean, I think of twenty three, which was your first year here in the six game losing streak, and it was just one game it'd be the offense, one game it'd be the defense. Clearly they weren't really, you know, all in it for each other at that point. It just kind of fell apart and you know, they got it back on the rails for the last two games, but like those six games were just there was always, you know, they they just weren't a connected group. And so keeping the group connected
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: because it seems like a lot of you know, peep these kids stayed to play together, you know, on both sides of the ball. A lot of them, you know, stayed. You think about the running backs, which, you know, you've talked about were highly touted and then just haven't haven't gotten used in the way we thought.
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: well, I I think we've covered everything we can on the offense. I don't know how much there is to say. It'll be interesting to see. Like I I'm fascinated to see what who runs out on the field, how the play calling's gonna look different. Like, is it gonna be pretty noticeable? Like, all of that will be super interesting. I wanted to ask you this question because Canzano was talking with Jason Puckett yesterday about The Oregon State NIL roster and WSU, and obviously, you know, Oregon State's off to an awesome start. Atkinson, who funny enough was like FCS player of the year, like him and Pinnick were like one two FCS. I I think that's a funny correlation. Yeah, he was at Mercer. Yeah, he was. Yeah. Yes.
Greg: Wait, wasn't he a Mercer? Am I making that up? So that was the game that I that I I brought up earlier with his with with Pinux Highlight. So that's wow. How about that?
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, and Pinnock and they UC Davis won that game, I believe. And but I I think they finished 1-2 in like FCS quarterback of the year, because I was looking at it and I was like, that's interesting. It'll be funny to see how that plays out. Clearly,
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: face in his favor. But to Pinnock's credit, he doesn't have anybody like LeCree. I LeCree's been incredible. anyway, to just circle around the point of it, he made the point of like WCU has, you know, a seven million dollar roster, and then they have players that they're paying that aren't really playing. I guess two part question, which I know you love when people do the two part questions, but
Greg: No, that's all good.
Lucas Ingham: w w when somebody like in terms of players that they could be paying that aren't playing, Nylan Brown, I know he got hurt, but he wasn't really playing much before that, like who on the roster
Greg: Mm.
Lucas Ingham: is like would they be throwing money at that's not playing? And then two, like, from everything I've heard, I've never heard the number seven million. Like I've that's way higher than anything I've ever been told. And not that I have better sources than John Canzano, but that is just not That is not what I've been led to believe. So do you think that's a real number
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: or
Greg: I mean I yeah, I mean that's such a hard thing to track down for obvious reasons,
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: you know, f for competitive advantage reasons and you know, I there's been times over the years where I've like asked people, hey, off you know, off the record, like, you know, is there an I and you know an an NIL number that you're working with? Just so I have kind of a background idea of how this is and no one wants to say anything. So that's kind of it's
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: so hard to track down in that way. So I don't really want to like speculate on like what the number might be. I think like as far as players go. I the the two that come to mind that maybe could be a part of that is one, Max McCree on the offensive line.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: He was obviously has played a lot of college football, was starting at Washington before he got hurt, as recently as like tw last year and and in twenty four. So I like with like when they like when they announced his signing, that was a guy that that me and I'm sure
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: a lot of a lot of people were like, man, he's probably you gonna be starting. and you know, that one was tough too, 'cause he's always played left tackle and they have a good left tackle in Ash and Trip. but in Spring Ball, he was their starting right tackle. I he wa he was awesome. I I thought he was and that was to go from playing left tackle for your entire career then all of a sudden playing a right tackle at a new spot
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: i to to to acquit yourself that well I think was really impressive on his part. So for him to be just like totally out of the rotation, even though the the you know, the personnel they have in place kinda made it a a tough fit. For him to just be like totally out of the rotation, I think, has always s struck me as kind of weird. You know, because
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: he was always like I said, he had been starting at a P four place before injuries came his way. went to Maryland and that was kind of a weird situation because I I believe his mom was sick at that time. That's the reason why he
Lucas Ingham: Mm.
Greg: ended up not or why he ended up red shirting that year. but played a lot of played tons of college football at different levels at Washington at Maryland at the Jukewell level for a l for for a few years too. So you know, that that that's always a guy, and you know, I I I don't this like this is more of just me speculating on guys that I'm surprised have not gotten as much run. I don't know how what the role of NIL is in that, but that was
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: a guy that I'm sure they paid, you know, some amount of money.
Lucas Ingham: Decent mile, yeah.
Greg: yeah, sure, sure. And then so him and then the other one that that that comes to mind is Tank Hawkins as well for me.
Lucas Ingham: T yeah.
Greg: yeah, because you know to get a guy that could have gone anywhere he wanted out of high school that went to Florida, that I'm sure, you know, I don't know what his portal situation looked like coming out of the portal from Florida, but I'm sure he could have gone a lot of other places than Washington State for sure. And you know, no shout out to WSU, but that's a guy that has has the
Lucas Ingham: For sure. No, no, no, no. That's a reality.
Greg: talent has the talent and the and the the tools to go to a lot of different you know, a lot of you know, P four schools. So he's a guy that like, yeah, like, I I I like I I'm surprised it's not really especially, you know As much as it's true that he is less positive a receiver as Tony Freeman, he still has the talent and the tools to like give you something in the same realm as as what Freeman was giving them. Yeah. And
Lucas Ingham: Some screens, some jet sweeps, like anything, yeah.
Greg: it it it's it's been tough for him too. Like like I don't it so many of these things run together too, because you think about like you you're tempted to just be like, Man, like why isn't Tick Hawkins more involved? Well, you have a quarterback out there who can't really stretch the field vertically, which is, you know, a lot of what he's able to do. And I remember against Arizona, they ran a screen pass for him in the red zone, I believe on third down, and Penning throws a pass. It's it's like a bubble screen and the pass is
Lucas Ingham: Yeah and
Greg: like kinda outside his shoulder, so we have to kind of like backtrack for a second to catch it. And then
Lucas Ingham: There's a lot of those, yeah.
Greg: and then at that point it's like, okay, now you're just behind the chains and you gotta go you have to change directions and it's hard to make something out of that. And then there was the screen pass, I think again here against Fredno State, where it's kind of the same position position where
Lucas Ingham: Same deal, yeah.
Greg: it's like, yeah, it's like How much can you really do in a spot like that? So, those to be two guys, honestly, you know, we we we talked about what their offense might look like as a result of Kirby taking over play calling duties and more being more involved. Like, I will be in in interested to see if if those guys' roles change in any meaningful way because, you know, after the game on Saturday, and then on Monday, he Kirby talks about, you know, everything is up to reevaluation, da da da. So is that, you I'll be fascinated to see like, is that true? Is that true to the extent that he's you know, in insinuating like we'll see.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I mean I think that's like when he says that, because like he never like really straight like deviates from like he's just a very like stoic coach speak person, like which you've highlighted obviously,
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: but like him saying that like everything's up for evaluation to me is almost like as like direct and stern as he can get that like everybody's on the chopping block. Like maybe I'm reading too much into that, but like cause you asked him about the
Greg: Yeah. I kinda Yeah. To me
Lucas Ingham: quarterbacks first and he was like everything's up for evaluation, and then somebody asked a question digging in more, like, is like like Caden picked the starter and he's like, no. So they kind of led me to believe like, that's a pretty genuine answer to that. But maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
Greg: Yeah, I mean, you have to like the way I saw it is that after a offensive performance that bad, you have to indicate publicly that you're open to changing things.
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: Like if he like the worst thing he could have done post game or even on Monday was say like, yeah, we're just gonna stick to you know, stick to the game plans, keep like that that would be the worst thing Yeah, like that would be the worst
Lucas Ingham: Keep in keep in rhythm.
Greg: thing you could possibly say. So I think that like him saying things are up for reevaluation, like It it is simultaneously the most candid thing he said, but also the most like like
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: ba baseline thing you have like I don't know if it's like the bare minimum, but you
Lucas Ingham: You have to say, yeah.
Greg: have to indicate that like yeah, like whether or not they actually change things in the way that he insinuated, you have to at least indicate that you're open to making those kinds of changes after an offensive
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: offensive per you know, performance like that. So
Lucas Ingham: Yeah, I that's fair. But I mean I just like it is so hard to tell with him sometimes because I think he said to you guys after the game on Saturday, like, why didn't you want to get Eshelman some snaps later in the game? He's like, Well, we just wanna like keep the the offense in rhythm. I was like, What what rhythm? Like that's
Greg: What yeah, I he he's a pretty big believer in like keeping the same groups together. Like once we got to the end of fall camp, you saw Pennick running with the first team on s offensive line,
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: then the twos and threes kinda separated themselves. So it seems like he's he he's a pretty big believer in that, for better or worse. But yeah, in that spot, you gotta at least just like kind of end his night to kinda get him out of that that spot.
Lucas Ingham: For sure. And and I am interested to see like Hawkins, like I was it Kansas State where he only played one snap the entire game? Yeah. S so it's some of the right.
Greg: Once yeah, that's I didn't I was that's a good point. Yeah, one snap. He started just the one snap.
Lucas Ingham: So it's some of those things like that, and then the five runs in the second half, and like just the touches that people are getting, like, it's all seemed imbalanced and incoherent. And so I'll be interested to see if that's more like under control. Like like 'cause I think of like, you know, in the NFL watching the new Broncos offensive coordinator take over and they've been on a couple prime time games. So it just comes to mind. Like Sean Payton, obviously, this offensive mastermind he's been forever. He gives up the play calling. And I think it was kind of a similar deal. Like they only had like a very limited amount of rushes, you know, rushing touches in like the second half of the game. And the commentators, it was probably Chris Collinsworth being like, Well, this is, you know, first time play caller, blah, blah, blah. And so it it does seem kind of, you know, These are new people and they need to get experience as as time goes on. And it it's kind of brutal for them that they didn't get to have that experience. Like it would have been cool if Utah State was like the first game of the year. And I I think back to last year, you know, them moving from Potter to Zevi, like it was Idaho, San Diego State, and North Texas. And they saw enough of against that level of opponent to be like, we have to move on. And so I wonder if, you know, had they had that schedule this year, like would we have come to this conclusion sooner than we are now?
Greg: Yeah. No, it's it was a tough stret like that was was what was so weird about covering those first four games,
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: for anybody is that like we all agree that there was nothing really like truly reflective of what they could or couldn't do as a result of those four games.
Lucas Ingham: No, yeah.
Greg: like l like obviously the the things we thought after the first and second game have turned out to be pretty true, at least about their offense and their defense for that matter. but at
Lucas Ingham: Well I think it was true after the second game because I think after the Apple Cup we talked and we were all kinda like, their defense might be pretty good and like offense against lower competition, like they'll they'll figure something out but then that clearly that's just not
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: what's happened.
Greg: Well, yes, that's what I'm saying. Like I like even though at like at the time it was this th you had the sense of like okay, they're playing these calibre of teams that
Lucas Ingham: Yes.
Greg: they won't see the rest of the season, so it's probably reasonable to expect them to improve and off on offense and defense. But it's also true that, you know, they played a team that, you know, profiled as as more their speed and a lot of the same problems still existed. So
Lucas Ingham: Yes, hundred percent.
Greg: you know I tha that's why I've kinda come and kinda changed my opinion on on those first four games is that like, you know, even though those aren't really the same kinds of teams they'll be facing, they kind of are they they they have been the same you know, from those four games to Fresno State, so
Lucas Ingham: Well, and when you go back and evaluate those games, like Washington has not played well pretty much the entire season, like or up to what we thought they were at that time. So it's not like,
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: my gosh, like, you know, number nineteen Washington. Like that's that's been different. I think Kansas State has been awesome, but like i I look at the Arizona I look at I look at the Arizona game. Who do they have this week? They lost to Cincinnati, didn't they? Houston's brutal.
Greg: Sure have. Houst Houston. Houston. If Houston at home I wanna say. Yeah, Houston is not good. but they were expected to be really good. They were pretty good last year. They were they were they were thought to be pretty good.
Lucas Ingham: Well, I mean, I think being ranked twenty and coming out to that crowd they had at home last weekend would be a pretty tough Yeah, well I
Greg: I know, I saw you I saw you tweet about that.
Lucas Ingham: mean, not that it's like not that Washington State doesn't have his own crowd issues. I will say,
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: to end on a positive thing, like I thought the crowd was like 'cause I spent a lot of time on the field during the first part of the game, like the crowd was really awesome on Saturday for a team that's one and three and like hadn't been entertaining to watch. Like and the what John Harlow and company have done with the lights and like back home with the phones and stuff, like It keeps the crowd engaged and like the student section was singing Wonderwall as the first quarter ended. Like all that stuff. Like if the team was really good, I think really and like and it did enhance the experience for like the first half. Like in in honestly, more people stayed through the third quarter than I would have imagined. But had I not been
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Lucas Ingham: working, I I wouldn't have wanted to stay to watch that earlier e either. But Yeah, I'm bar I'm part hey man, I missed three games in four years of being a student and one of them was because my cousin's wedding. So
Greg: You're part of the problem, Lucas. okay, fair.
Lucas Ingham: anyway, l finally finishing on a positive note, because I've been trying to get there and there's just not that many of them. We we talked about before this season, like we were kind of trying to project like the floors and the ceilings, and it's like the defense, like, like there's no way they're gonna be as good as they were last season. The top 25 defense, like that thing kind of thing hasn't happened here in a long time. I think about the way they played on Saturday, and I think about the way they played in some of these other games where you know. They are just getting absolutely zero help and they are having to be on the field this whole time. And they're down, you know, some of their defensive linemen, and they still perform awesome. If they had the offense that they had last season, I'm not convinced that this defense isn't as good, if not maybe like pretty comparable to last season, just based off like it. That's another thing where it's hard to evaluate. Like they are being tasked with like an an impossible task, like what they are being able to ask to accomplish, like. isn't possible. Like nobody would be able to sustain
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: that. So I I would be so curious to see if they had an average offense, like what they would be capable of and how much that would raise their profile as a team.
Greg: Yeah. Or even just like a below average offense, I think, you know, helps them turn
Lucas Ingham: Was like last year, yeah.
Greg: things around. Like yeah, and I think I mean like you talked about like if they had last last year's offense. I think if they had the Danny Freud led bowl game offense throughout the entirety of li like if if that's the offense they had, they're probably winning more games. you know, 'cause
Lucas Ingham: Dude, they'd be awesome if they had did you see his wife getting in the action tweeting like
Greg: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's kind of you know, people have kind of come to their senses on what they could
Lucas Ingham: Totally.
Greg: have had if he had been unleashed the entire time. So but yeah, like it's I don't know, man, like it i it's weird because like you would think based on the personnel that they have on offense this year that they're more talented. Like I think they have more talent at receiver. I think like they might be better or supposed to be better on their offensive line.
Lucas Ingham: You think they have more talent at receiver this year? Than last year? Then than Freeman? Than like like not counting Freeman f
Greg: Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean I like free well, I the Freeman
Lucas Ingham: and Josh?
Greg: Yeah, I mean Josh Meredith was like a pretty good receiver. I I d I think that they did a pretty good job of like skeptimin him open. thinking about the touchdown against Virginia and some of those stuff. Like he was a solid receiver, but I think like some of the athleticism they have at that spot between Blood and Clemens and I think that's probably they're probably have to have the leg up, I would say.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. Well, but like stealing something that like an idea that you gave me, cause like I I think I was the one probably who presented the, you know, the Tank Hawkins like similar archetype to Tony Freeman thing, and you're like, well, the experience is pretty important. Like Meredith was a guy who had been around for a long time. He could run routes. Like he's like he could be Okay, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, that's fair. Yeah. But I just think that like in and a guy like Noga
Greg: Definitely. But like talent wise, I think that's you know what I mean? I I I I I agree. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean the experience makes a difference.
Lucas Ingham: too, that you could count on. Like, I don't know who the receiver on this team is other than BG, that it's like I can count on him in a big moment.
Greg: Yeah, I mean I I agree. I also think that like you o you always have to think about like what opportunities have they had based on who their quarterback has been and like you know, like I like I hate to keep like, you know, bringing it back to that, you know, again, I don't wanna, you know, t you know, kick a guy when he's down. But it you know, I I think so much of this is like, you know, I mean you mentioned how better this season might have been going for them if they had a little bit of better offense. If they've a little bit better quarterback play, you you're probably seeing more out of those receivers between
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: Blood and Clemens and B G and like
Lucas Ingham: I think if I think if he played better, they could have beaten Arizona and Fresno State, like pretty realistically.
Greg: Yeah, no, totally. I mean like you think I mean you see them score twenty six, but the reality is that they had a couple of short fields late in the game and they had sixteen through th yeah.
Lucas Ingham: They had sixteen it was sixteen six and WCU had the ball with four minutes to go. And they
Greg: Right.
Lucas Ingham: threw a pick on their own ten, whatever it ended up being. So
Greg: Yeah. Ex exactly. Like that's that's what I'm saying. Like that like, you know, even a little better quarterback play, a little better offense probably gets
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: over the hump in games like that.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. And I I just trying to like 'cause to to be fair to Caden, like there's like like we've chronicled, like, there's so much like sure, like he's the focal point, he's the quarterback, he's gonna get the most attention, but like there's a million things that are going wrong beyond him that are out of his control. That's certainly not helping
Greg: Totally.
Lucas Ingham: helping somebody with inexperience like land in a safe place. Like we talked a lot about preseason, like They miscast guys last year and how you get people in positions to succeed. And I I think that's the biggest thing and the biggest reason Kirby Moore's jumping in. It's like, I don't even like not only have they not been put in positions to succeed, like they've been in put in positions to like, I don't even know how to describe it, like positions to fail, positions to not even like have opportunity. Like they don't even have if
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: they they step out out there and it feels like they don't even have a chance.
Greg: No, I mean I don't think they have any identity. Like like that's what I depending on how this next game goes, I do plan on asking Kirby, like, you know, what what's your guys' identity on offense right now? Because I don't I don't I have not seen anything concrete from these first five games. I don't think they I think I I th they have they probably have an idea of what they would have liked their identity to be, but there's a big difference between that and like what you're I was actually seeing on the field. So
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. No, I'm with you. And I think the biggest thing that I'd like to see, like, from like a fan perspective for the rest of the season is like whether it be Pinick or Eshelman steps in or Duggar, like obviously, like what good teams do is like they get better as the season goes on. And clearly that hasn't happened through five games. Like, if anything, like they've it feels like they've gotten worse, like from week five to week one. So like i if
Greg: Sure, yeah. Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: by you know, we're I'm you know, I'm gonna go to San Diego for the game over Halloween, and like at that point, like Ho i whether it's Eschelman or Pinick, like I hope they're figuring something out, like the offense is getting better. Like I've kind of like it and I think it's totally acceptable, like, for people to realize, like, we were kind of skating by with like Rogers and like these first year head co like the to be quite honest, like the success that Jimmy Rogers was able to have last season is like nothing short of remarkable, like given all of the circumstances that have faced this program for the past couple years, and like even Dickert
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: having success in a year where like they're coming out of the Pac twelve and like like all those things, like They just like to expect success to be fostered in that kind of environment, like is kind of just unrealistic, especially for first year head coaches. So like for me, I I won't really be like upset at anything as a fan perspective or feel they need to boo. Like if I feel like they like progress and get better and like like are heading in the right direction by the end of the year and feel like, hey, like, you know, Eshelman won two, three games down the stretch, two, and you know, we're we're feel good about him. on opening day next year, like to me that that
Greg: Mm.
Lucas Ingham: would be a major success as the season, you know, progresses. Like, is that kind of what you see as like what needs to happen the rest of the year? Like what do they need to do to make you feel somewhat confident in the direction heading into the into the next season?
Greg: I I think if their season ended right now, no one would feel good about the way they're headed.
Lucas Ingham: of course not. No.
Greg: but you know, the season doesn't aren't are not five games. So yeah, I mean I think like by the end of the season, you know, well I I I think one thing I'll be in interested to see is like how they fare on the road. Like I know like, you know, it it it's it's tough to compare year to year because of how different these teams have been the last several years, but they have not been good on the road the last several years. so I'll be interested to see like the role that that plays in Because because I do think that like a lot of the problems that we've talked about so far, whether it's the decision making, the confidence, the play cong, all all these different things, like that that does not really lend itself to road wins, I don't think. So
Lucas Ingham: For sure.
Greg: I'd be in interested to see just like how they fare on the road. and I think that if if they can kind of establish some sort of identity on offense by the last couple of weeks of the season, I think could be really big. I I I think if You know, 'cause like like I said, right now they don't have you know much of an identity. But if they can if they can establish something to like build off of and be realistic about, you know, let's say that Maxwell Woods, you know, ends up having a huge year. Maybe it's like, okay, like we're gonna put in a you know put a lot of resources to win retaining him. Maybe the happens are you know, maybe that comes through before he's away, and maybe, you know, someone you know, emerges a quarterback like you said, and like I don't think there has to be like something like you know, concrete and meaningful and tangible. I think that they can that can carry over carry over year to year. It's also true that as we've seen at Washington State the last several years, if any of those kinds of things I just mentioned come to pass, you're not guaranteed to get those guys back year to year.
Lucas Ingham: No.
Greg: So, you know, as I I think like, you know, as important as it is to finish the year with something meaningful to build off of, it'll be equally as important over the off season to do what you can to retain those guys that made that possible. So that's just
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: yeah.
Lucas Ingham: I just think there's the reason there's such urgency and going back to like the point I just made, I think Jacob Thorpe, I believe is his name at the Spokesman Review, who wrote like the article about like this couldn't be coming at a worse time, which is totally true. And you know, that's why, you know, I get on here and preach about attendance and the collective and NIL and all that stuff. But like this is like essentially a prove it deal for not only the Pac twelve, but for Washington State like in general. Like you get to the end of this next five years of realignment and Boise State and Oregon State have been awesome, which Like you said, Oregon State's gonna face the same problem. Like their coach, their quarterback, and the receiver are all are all already like being put in different jobs, which sucks. Like, obviously, that
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: no one thinks that's how it should be, but like Washington State over the next five years has to prove that they are a valuable brand. And like, sure, they're doing that off the field with TV and the stadium and all that stuff, but like they have to prove that they can be competitive on the field over the next five years or they're gonna be shit out of luck again. And so they they they
Greg: Yeah, totally.
Lucas Ingham: And that's why there's so much urgency and like like I get why people are frustrated like with how it's gone this season because like I think had this been normal times and all of this like this black cloud wasn't looming over the whole thing, it's like, well, it's his first year, like Leach had a bad first year. Like, let's give him some time, let him get his guys, let him get linemen that can run block and not pass block. Like you could be having all these conversations, but like there's kind of this om
Greg: Different world.
Lucas Ingham: there's this ominous black cloud that's hanging over thing. And and honestly, like it kind of like ruins what's like fun about being a college sports fan. Like I kind of like wish I could just like enjoy my team on a Saturday and not when they lose be thinking like, well we're gonna get relegated because we're losing these games. Like it kind of like it ruins a lot
Greg: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: of the enjoyment of it. And so like I get why that turns people off, but I would just flip it around and say, hey, like if you care about WCU and the program and like you're gonna watch every Saturday, then there's like every more reason to be involved in attending even if the product isn't exactly awesome because it's like this is kind of This is kinda the moment. This is kinda the do or die. Do or die moment. So
Greg: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, like I like, you know, going as as the Pac twelve was being rebuilt, there was a sense of, you know, well d you know, Washington State, Oregon State were the traditional Pac twelve members and surely they will be the leaders of this new Pac twelve. It doesn't happen automatically. It like y'all
Lucas Ingham: No.
Greg: like you don't g like you don't just get to be the leader just by virtue of being a member of the legacy Pac twelve. Like that's not how it works. And you've seen it bear out in in real time with the way this kook season is going. So
Lucas Ingham: Well and if they had any s like kind of sustainability, like if if Dickert was still here, like I know that would be like people might not like that, but like if Dickert, like who had like built the program and established himself was still here, then I think it'd be realistic to expect that. Like, hey, we've established that we're, you know, a bowl contender each and every year. We've had awesome quarterbacks, you know, we've had eight wins, we've been four and and ranked thirteenth, like we've established a winning culture here. And like with the turning over three coaches in three years, like you can't just expect that culture to magically just exist. Like Th those people are gone,
Greg: Right.
Lucas Ingham: those players are gone, the personnel's gone. Like it's just it's not the same.
Greg: Yeah, and I also think that like a lot of the circumstances that led all that to happen, that led Jake to leave for Wake Forest, that led Jimmy to leave for Iowa State, like that is just a product of the permanent reality of WSU. Like nothing about the that happening was like you know, maybe five, six, seven, ten years ago your Washington head coach leaving to go to Wake Forest would have registered as like, what on earth? Like that's weird. Like that's that's a step down almost. But that's not the world we live in anymore. We live in a world in twenty twenty six where they're on the outside looking in from from big time P four ball out obviously and the remoteness of the campus and the and the town is obviously playing a pretty outsized role in the way this is all unfolded for them. So I do think that like you know they are having to How do I say this? Like, turn around problems that are f fundamental to Was the university as a whole.
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: Because, you know, a lot of the way this goes for WCU I and this is you you I mean, you know this, people listening to this know this, but the world we live in now here at WCU is if you know Maxwell Woods has an incredible year, if Tank Hawkins has an awesome year or any you know, whoever has a huge year, like they're gonna get offered over a million dollars in in the portal and it's hard as a nineteen year old, twenty year old, twenty one year old to turn that down. It's it's and it's not an indictment on, you know, their love or lack thereof for for being a coup. It's more about just like making a a solid life choice. And so, is there a
Lucas Ingham: Yeah. totally.
Greg: way to is there a way to turn that around here at W Su? Like maybe, maybe not. but yeah, I mean that they they they have to make the best out of the s the circumstances and those are not really going to change in you know, in any fundamental way. So
Lucas Ingham: Well, let me let me like before we get out of here, I'll be an arm for the collective. Like, if they really did spend seven million dollars, like that's really competitive in the new Pac twelve. Like that would be a perfectly
Greg: Totally.
Lucas Ingham: acceptable number if that is the number. and then second of all, like, they were able to retain guys like Kirby Voorhees, who played really well last season and I think was coveted a little. And Maxwell Woods did have an awesome bowl game. Granted, you know, it's Utah State in the circumstances
Greg: Totally.
Lucas Ingham: of that. Like, but you know, I you look at it and there's Like 10,000 season season ticket holders, 22,000 people have WCU license plates in the state, far more than any other custom license plate. And there's only 3,000 members of the collective. And like they do awesome TV numbers. And so my plea to like some of the older like WCU fans in my life, like my dad, like who doesn't want to get involved in the NIL based off principle or they're kind of just like they don't like it or whatever. And and my argument would just be like, if you're going to sit and watch every Saturday, why would you not want to spend $20 a month to possibly enhance that? viewing experience for you. Like it just to me it seems like a logical. Like I understand there's, you know, there's there's a principality of like people don't believe in it. But like for the sake of like if you're gonna go to the games and you're gonna watch the games, like why would you not want to try and enhance that viewing experience? And even if you just got like all the season ticket holders to be cougar collective members, like you're talking about like a a massive impact on who you're able to retain, who you're able to acquire. And like so again, like I know I sound like an arm for the collective, but like if anybody is like a WSU fan who's like mad about like the product on the field, like it's more of a call to to spend that money than to not. That's just the way I feel about it. But
Greg: Yeah, I mean I don't I don't think it's impossible to hang on to guys that that they want to or to, you
Lucas Ingham: Right.
Greg: know, land guys that they want. I mean, you saw this off season, like you said, I mean, hanging on to those three running backs between Maxwell Woods and Kirby Voorhees and Leo Bula, that was a big deal. Like obviously
Lucas Ingham: Hundred cent.
Greg: we talked about like how little they've been able to produce so far, but we still agree that they're all they're super duper talented and getting them all back was a was a huge win for for Kirby, in his first few weeks on the job, honestly. So yeah, I mean we've seen that we've seen them, you know, offer Mateer like a million dollars. We've seen them, you know, put out well, I know,
Lucas Ingham: Poor John, man. Poor John.
Greg: I know, obviously that's that's not unfolding great for him, but you know, at the time that was and still is a a huge accompl accomplishment for them. So it's not impossible. I think there is like a feasible way to stabilize things. it's just it's just more of a year to year kind of thing and it's just, you know,
Lucas Ingham: For sure.
Greg: for people like your dad, I mean that sometimes can make something of a difference. So
Lucas Ingham: Totally. And it's like if like if I just knew that they were gonna be in this new version of the Pac twelve, like I wouldn't be bummed about that. Like I think Boise State's an awesome
Greg: Mm.
Lucas Ingham: matchup. I think Fresno is a cool program. I think like like what is like is Fresno State not more interesting than Cal or Stanford? Like to me it is, maybe not to the casual person, but like I think they're a better football program than those two schools. So like I think there's a lot of like value to the new Pac Twelve. But whether people realize that or not, or whether Boise State has higher ambitions, which I think they do, like is like Is gonna ultimately decide your future and like you just need to be at a point where in five years, like Boise State, Oregon State, and WCU are getting pulled up together if that's the reality of it, and not not just Boise State. But from what we've
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: seen the first five games, like there's no reason to believe like they could have like obviously like as presently constructed, we don't agree that like they deserve to win or that they should win, but like they could have beaten UW, they have beaten Arizona, and they could have beaten Fresno. Like those are like if you're If you execute and you do things correctly and you get a couple of things to go your way, I'm not saying they they go three and in those games or that like but if you had a a better, I don't know what I wanna call it, plan, mindset, attitude, whatever it was going into those three games, like those aren't like you didn't come away from those games thinking, my god, we had we never had a chance in those games. Like those are games that you
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Lucas Ingham: can like in year two or three of the Kirby Moore experience, like you feel like you should be competing to win those games.
Greg: Yeah. No, I mean th I mean none of those were out of reach at all. Like I think if like a few things changed here or there, like they
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: for sure could have won those games. I also, you know, on the other hand, I also think that like a lot of the problems that they experience in those games have been pretty characteristic of this group. I mean like the mist like
Lucas Ingham: yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
Greg: the mistake I d and I you know, I d I know you don't I know you don't disagree with that, but I'm just saying that like for us as close as they were in a lot of those games, it's also true that like nothing really like uncharacteristic. cause them to lose those games. Like that that's been pretty fundamental to like who they've shown themselves to be. so, you know, I don't know if those are like competing ideas, but I I see both as I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Lucas Ingham: No, no, I I totally agree with you. Like I like I said, like they're not in a place to be winning those games. But I also didn't feel like
Greg: Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: I also felt like they weren't like blown off the field from a talent perspective, like they would against Ohio State. But like so the other thing,
Greg: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Lucas Ingham: and like we've gone on this massive big picture tangent, but like the the other reality of it is it's like that's kind of always been the reality. Like people think about those great leech teams and like they really struggled beating Washington, and a lot of that was because of the same issues that we're talking about right now. And the reason they had success against other teams is because of how well coached they were, the scheme, how the players executed, like mistake-free football. Like that's the reason programs like this can have success. And that's what you know Boise State has done for a long time. And so it's not like none of these problems are really new when you're playing programs like that. Like you're there's always gonna be a certain talent disadvantage, and you just have to find your ways to make up for that. But we've gone long here.
Greg: Yeah, yeah.
Lucas Ingham: This has been awesome though. massive big picture conversation. I feel like maybe a lot of coups are feeling. this way this week after the way everything's gone. Like obviously it hasn't been hasn't been a fun start. So hopefully it will be more fun moving forward. You're gonna be in Logan on Friday, Greg, where could everybody find your stuff?
Greg: Yeah, I mean all my stuff is up is on the Spokesman website if you're a print subscriber, which there are some of I guess these days that that it
Lucas Ingham: Ha ha ha.
Greg: it's always in there. I remember a few years ago I was at the corner club in in Moscow and there was a lady reading the Lewiston Tribune sports section, like a the
Lucas Ingham: Nice.
Greg: print product. So I I I took a picture and sent it to Sam who works for that paper.
Lucas Ingham: Nice, yeah.
Greg: but yeah, it it's all there, it's all online. We have our podcast, the Cooker Proud Podcast. So check that out if you're so inclined. and yeah, we'll see. You know, everybody, you know, I I think the train of fans who are like, Greg hates it. I think that's like pretty much over. I think people realize that
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: I don't hate the team. but I do think it's worth reiterating, like, selfishly, I hope like it's not fun to cover a team that's having a terrible season. like it's not and I I've been there. I've covered a one in ten Idaho State team. And I was like every every
Lucas Ingham: Yeah.
Greg: game every game felt like the same game. I'm like, dude, this is just like a r like a reprise of the same game every now every every every week. So it's not fun to do. I don't I don't think any joy in them losing. but yeah, it's all it's all online, it's all on on my Twitter, it's all all in print even if you're a print subscriber. So it's it's everywhere.
Lucas Ingham: No, you do an awesome job. And I think Koog fans have come to appreciate as, you know, they're not happy with this team, the work you do to, you know, get into the nitty gritty and figure out the stuff. And hopefully the the Premiere Pro keeps coming along. We've enjoyed those breakdowns. That's been nice. And yeah.
Greg: Y th thank you, thank you.
Lucas Ingham: so thanks for your time today, Greg. We really appreciate it. And we'll see you next time and see you on Friday.
Greg: Sounds good.
