Burnout, Hormones & Mental Health: What Your Body Is Trying to Tell You (And What to Do About It) with Francesca Lyon #7

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Welcome to the Holistic Psychology Podcast, where psychology meets nutrition, lifestyle, and physical health for a whole-person approach to your mental health.
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I'm senior psychologist Sophia Dawson.
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Let's step into true wellness from the inside out.
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Welcome to another episode of the Holistic Psychology Podcast.
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This week we have the incredible Francesca Lyon, who is a degree qualified and registered naturopath and medical herbalist who specializes in women's health, hormones, and fertility.
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In this episode, Chess and I dive deep into the interconnected world of woman's health, hormones, and mental health.
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We explore Chess's journey.
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She's a dedicated naturopath and she shares her personal story of transformation from burnout to holistic healing.
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We discuss the critical role of hormones like cortisol, estrogen, and progesterone in our daily lives and how they impact everything from stress levels to fertility.
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If you're feeling stressed, burnt out, or you're feeling like something's a little bit off with your hormones, this is absolutely an episode for you.
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Join us as we uncover practical lifestyle and nutritional interventions to support hormone balance and mental health.
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And learn why understanding your body's signals is key to living your best life.
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Here we go.
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Hello, my lovely friend Francesca.
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Welcome to the Holistic Psychology Podcast.
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It's so cool to have you here.
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We've been talking about this for a while, hey, so it's really awesome to have you here to talk all things woman's health, hormones, mental health.
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I'm so excited.
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Me too.
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So hey, I think if we can kick it off, I love asking a question of this kind of variety to really understand you and your journey to being where you are now in terms of your work.
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So tell me what I need to know about you to understand your journey to doing this beautiful work, this naturopathy that you do with women on their fertility journeys and just in life.
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Tell me what I need to understand about you and your journey to doing the work, this beautiful work that you do now.
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It's a really good question.
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And I think it's multifaceted, but I think it kind of ultimately stemmed from a burnout, which I think so many people can uh relate to being sort of like a uh catalyst of change for them.
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But I I kind of I went down the route initially of my as long as I can remember, I wanted to be a psychologist.
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I just wanted to help people, I wanted to understand people.
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I was so hungry for that, and I studied psychology at uni, and as you very well know, I wanted to be a clinical psychologist and to get accepted into that, you need, you know, a bit of life experience.
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So the advice was off you go, live life, come back in a couple of years, and we'll see.
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Um, so I did and I went off and I don't really know how I did, but I ended up in advertising.
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I think it was, you know, a bit of like a family-friend connection uh thing.
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And I ended up in advertising and wow, did I burn out?
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Like classic working out every morning, 5 a.m., working until 11, 12 at night, living on chips and white wine and long hours.
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And I just sort of a year and a half into it, I just crashed.
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And I thought uh maybe I should go back and study psychology.
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But I actually went to a psychologist myself, and I just felt like I spent like six months talking to them in circles.
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And I felt like I was talking in circles, and then I kind of realized nobody had asked me about my diet, nobody had asked me about my lifestyle.
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I was eating like no nutrients, I was so exhausted, I was over-exercising, I wasn't sleeping.
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And as I slowly kind of pieced this together and I actually saw a naturopath, I started to feel so, so much better.
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And I started to feel like myself again.
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I had energy, I was restored, I was like balanced, and I realized, wow, I think maybe that's what I want to do.
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I want to address it from all angles.
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And I just got sort of hooked on on that idea of sort of real holistic care, like naturopathy can can really offer.
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So I think that was sort of the the short journey of how I ended up here.
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Oh my gosh, that is amazing.
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You know, it's funny because if you were to ask me if I could choose another job now, like on top of what I do, I say naturopathy.
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So it's funny.
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They're so connected, and I don't think people realize, you know, how connected they are, and that's exactly why we're having this conversation today.
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Um exactly.
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Yeah, I I absolutely love that.
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And actually, one thing I want to say about that, because um when you were talking about over-exercising, you know, I think that life that you talked about, a lot of people are just in at the moment, right?
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Like overworking, over-exercising, they're not getting enough sleep.
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But it's kind of normalized.
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Hey, you know, it's like the hustle.
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It's normalized in their own bodies as well, like they're kind of disconnected and they don't realize they've moved into that stage of stress where they've sort of um adjusted to it and they don't even realize.
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And I think that's the danger zone where it's like a couple of extra hours of work here, a couple of extra hours of exercise, a little bit of under-eating or something, and it's just a recipe for disaster and they can't even see it.
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Yeah.
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That's so true.
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Actually, that will be interesting for us to consider in a moment, like hormonally, kind of what that's actually doing to somebody's body.
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Um, but before we jump into that, hormones to me is like we we hear that word so often, and I'm not actually 100% sure people know kind of what the hormones are that we have in our bodies and actually what their jobs are.
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Can you tell us a little bit about what hormones actually are and what their function is in our body?
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Yes, well, we have so many hormones, but essentially they're chemical messengers in the body.
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So they're made from um endocrine glands and tissues uh in the body, and they essentially travel around the body and communicate to organs and to other tissues in the glands and uh regulate the body.
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So, you know, ones that I really focus on obviously are our sex hormones like estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, but then I focus a lot on things like cortisol, one of our stress hormones, adrenaline and noradrenaline, um, you know, those kind of hormones as well.
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So they all they're all essentially chemical messengers.
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Uh we've got the thyroid hormones.
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We have so many hormones that come from the brain and then sort of communicate down into the body.
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So essentially thinking of them as little chemical messengers is a really sort of nice, easy way to think of them.
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Love that.
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And so, in your example just before then, of that sort of um working long hours, over-exercising, not fueling your body appropriately, what is going on hormonally in that picture?
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Oh, yeah, crash.
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So essentially, initially, what's happening in that first sort of stage where you're starting to get a little bit more stressed, and it's just sort of building up your cortisol is going to increase.
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That's sort of the natural progression.
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So cortisol is made from the adrenal glands.
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It's one of our first messengers that sort of comes out from stress, as well as things like adrenaline as well.
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Um, but as that continues on, there's only so much we can produce, and there's only so much that our adrenal glands can make.
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And eventually, instead of having a very, very high cortisol level, you actually end up with a very low cortisol level.
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Your body can't keep up with demand.
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And, you know, as cortisol increases, typically we start to see sex hormones decrease.
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But as cortisol really decreases, like you've gone into that kind of, I want to use the word burnout, which is just kind of a bit overused, but you know, you've moved into that kind of burnout state with very low cortisol, then you're seeing sex hormones really plummet.
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And I'm seeing people with like very low estrogen, very low progesterone, no periods, um, you know, no motivation, low mood.
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And then it sort of becomes this sort of cycle of is it this is it sort of their job that's making them feel like that?
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Is it their hormone that's making them feel like that?
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I mean, the answer's probably both at the end of the day.
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So it's really depleted, essentially.
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Everything depletes when you're going to that survival mode.
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That's so true.
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But the cortisol picture is an interesting one though, hey, because I think society's idea of being stressed is oh my cortisol must be really high at the moment.
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But you just highlighted something really interesting and really important, right?
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That actually chronic stress actually often looks like really low cortisol.
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Um, can you tell us a little bit about, I suppose, the transition from when somebody's going from being super stressed and that cortisol is looking really high to when they're chronically stressed and burnt out to when that cortisol goes pretty low, drops off.
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Yeah.
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And you know, uh um what I find actually really interesting is I have, you know, I'm a co-founder in a hormone testing company and we test cortisol.
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And I would say 80% of women have low cortisol that I see.
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Wow, it shocks them.
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It's this is long-term stress.
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Um, but what I would say happens is when you have high cortisol, you kind of have that addicted feeling to stress.
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That kind of feeling where you're like, you're up here and you're kind of up in your chest and you kind of like feel a little bit good about it.
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Like you kind of feel a bit energized by it, and you're like, I'm a bit stressed, but I'm like kind of weirdly enjoying it, and I'm kind of addicted to it, and there's adrenaline, and like, whoo, let's go.
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And you kind of have that feeling a little bit, and then when that starts to wear off and your cortisol starts to decrease, you're finding it very hard to wake up in the morning, like exhausted.
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You might be waking up maybe at like 2, 3 a.m., like wired, and then you're crashing by the time it's time to get up.
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You need coffee to get going.
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Your brain starts to feel brain fog, sort of brain fogged, you start to gain weight.
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Um, you might have already started to gain weight with high cortisol as well.
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You're feeling just very fatigued, start to become unmotivated, and you just feel like you cannot get going.
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And it sort of really transitions into like, you know, wow, is this a bit of depression?
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Is this, you know, what is this?
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Um, you lose that sort of positive spin of of the benefit of higher cortisol.
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That's so interesting.
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The point you just made there of like this looks like depression, I think that must happen to a lot of people though, hey, because it's probably not the first thought that somebody has is like, you know, oh, maybe I should get my cortisol levels checked because, you know, I've been really stressed for a long time.
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Um, maybe what I'm experiencing is actually burnout.
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Is do you think that there's a kind of difference in terms of what you see clinically between people that are depressed because maybe there's really tricky stuff going on in their lives?
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From my perspective as a psychologist, it might be that they're really disconnected from the things that matter to them and they're um, yeah, maybe overvaluing one part of their life and undervaluing all these other parts in comparison to that kind of burnout picture, if that makes sense.
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Like, how does one distinguish am I depressed versus oh, is this cortisol?
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It's a really, really hard differentiation, and that's where a little bit of testing comes in because you know what I've seen, especially in women in their 30s as they start to head towards perimenopause.
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And like I'm a woman in my 30s, I I don't want to hear about perimenopause.
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Like, I don't want to think about that.
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But it happens around like 35, your hormones, your progesterone starts to decrease and estrogen becomes erratic.
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And I see a lot of women being diagnosed with depression in that time.
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Um and the question is, is it something like exactly like you said, something going on in terms of their values and they're sort of actually going through something traumatic or you know, whatever it may be?
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Or is it simply that as their progesterone decreases and as their GABA decreases, which is the calming neurotransmitter, or is it that their serotonin is decreasing due to drops in estrogen?
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So is it actually something chemical that's being instructed, like are those chemical messengers instructing this mood, or is it something else?
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And I think sometimes testing kind of is the only way to really know that, because we don't know what's going on with your cortisol, what's going on with your estrogen progesterone, unless we test.
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Um the differentiation is actually very tricky.
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I hear that.
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And I mean I think that's really, you know, sensible, wise advice of like, don't guess, test, you know, when it when it comes to something like this, because um it's an important thing to be to be exploring, that's for sure.
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Um, in terms of, I guess, people listening to this and they're going, Oh, I am in that like real addicted to stress kind of state, you know, where I'm like fight or flight and everything's feeling really stressful, but I'm getting a bit of a buzz.
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Are there any like nutritional lifestyle interventions that you would recommend for somebody in that state?
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It's a really good question.
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And I would say if you're in that state, I know it can be a bit addictive and it can feel kind of weirdly good, but I would say, oh my gosh, try and get out of that state as quickly as you can because it is so much harder to get out of that sort of quote unquote burnout state.
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Um, it really, really is.
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It can take months and months and months and months and months to get out of that, whereas it can be relatively easy.
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So, I mean, what I say to people really is, you know, I should go see someone, like go see a psychologist and have somebody help you because you know it's not very easy to get out of it yourself, but it really does ru uh involve a real entire life check.
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Because it is for you like, am I enjoying my job?
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Well, what is my motivation for this job?
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But in terms of exercise, I would say actually to slow down on the exercise and even stop.
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Um, you know, uh, it's a hard one actually.
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I kind of like I I say that in one breath and then I say the opposite in the other because exercise can also lower cortisol in a healthy way when done correctly and you know the right amount for that person.
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Um so it's it's it kind of again depends on that person's cortisol levels as to whether I would say do exercise or don't exercise.
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Um sleep nine hours a night, like really, really focus on sleep.
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And then there's some beautiful supplements.
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Um, of course, it's going to depend on the person, but even just taking like a magnesium glycinate, I kind of say that one quite freely because it's usually pretty good for everyone.
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Of course, check with you know, check with your practitioner, whatever.
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Um, but like 400 milligrams of magnesium glycinate can really reduce cortisol.
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So just even having just like a bit of support, but yeah, really it's it's to do with sleep and really evaluating, look, what's my motivation here?
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Why am I in this?
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Um, but it's it's a complex one, isn't it?
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You know, you can't probably can't always do it by yourself, really.
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Getting some help.
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That's so true.
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You're so right.
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It does take like a life audit, hey, because there are some things I guess in our lives, you know, people might be listening to this and being like, okay, yeah, I can do that stuff, but like my job is actually really stressful and I really love it.
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So that's something that's not gonna change for me.
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Um, do you feel like somebody could stay in a stressful job that they loved and do all these beautiful things around?
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So, like, you know, supplementing, eating a nutritious diet, getting good sleep, doing appropriate movement, and that that could be okay for their nervous system?
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Yes, and I would say that's actually where for what for women, it comes into their hormone health as well, because your hormones kind of determine how resilient you are, because our hormones are so like I'm uh talking about our sex hormones here, like estrogen and progesterone and testosterone, they are so intricately connected to our neurotransmitters and so intricately connected through our brain communication pathway to our ovaries and adrenal glands that like if you have robust, lovely, reproductive hormones that you're ovulating and you're getting beautiful progesterone that's helping to calm your brain and you're eating well and you're having beautiful balanced exercise and sleep, yes.
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But I'd say if you don't have that, then no, I think it would be really, really hard.
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Yeah, that's such a great summary.
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And it shows the importance of the kind of holistic lens, doesn't it?
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Like it's not just one or another, it's kind of like all of it together.
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And when you were talking about exercise, I was thinking, wow, that's that's such a good point because I would imagine that it really depends on a person's relationship with exercise too.
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Like I've totally been through that whole like I have to run today.
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I have to run five days a week.
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And or what okay, actually, no, five days that's a lot, but like, you know, three days even.
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And I it's it's somewhere in that rule of like I need to, you kind of disconnect from your body and what it's telling you.
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And so you're not kind of paying attention to those cues of feeling exhausted, run down, and you're kind of flogging your body and just doing it because your mind's saying to do it.
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I'm imagining that that's the kind of exercise that you're saying, like, absolutely not for those people.
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Totally.
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It's it's it's the disconnect, absolutely.
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But I I do think it's about people say, oh, I feel great after exercise.
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And, you know, they I don't know whether to trust them sometimes with that, whether that's elevated cortisol again and added adrenaline that's giving them this false high of like, I feel amazing, or they actually feel amazing and it's actually helped to reduce some of that cortisol ultimately.
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So I have to really look at the entire person.
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Like if I see somebody with that lower cortisol picture, I'm often telling them not to exercise at all.
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Like gentle yoga, gentle walking, and those are the clients that get literally stunned because they start to initially they start to gain weight, but then they lose weight.
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Um, they lose weight, they have more energy, they they feel like the best they've ever felt, and they're actually not really exercising.
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Um, you know, we've giving them, of course, a lot of other support at the time, and then they can build that up again.
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But it's yeah, it's definitely, I think, a disconnect.
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And have those clients that run five days a week and they say, I feel amazing.
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I'm like, Yeah, but look at your hormones, like you will not feel amazing for long.
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I can promise you that.
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It's it's a it's a sort of disconnect entirely.
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That's so true.
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And as you were saying before, I so agree.
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I think your body can get used to that.
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Hey.
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And so it kind of became and your hormones get used to it.
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So it's like your new normal.
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And it's only when you step out of that and you kind of go, Oh, yeah, maybe I am just hustling way too hard.
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Maybe my life is too fast-paced.
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But it and I'm not necessarily saying it needs to be like a holiday or something, but it's it's one of those things that you do actually have to step out of to be able to examine as almost like a third, third party, to be like, how is my body actually going with my life that I am currently?
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It's really hard to do that.
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Especially when I think busyness is tied to purpose so entirely in this modern world.
00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:05.920
And then people feel really purposeless if they step back from something like a busy job.
00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:11.359
You know, they don't, you know, it's a really, it's a really hard combination, to be honest.
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:13.119
It's a dance, hey?
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:13.920
Like it really is.
00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:21.119
And and it probably depends on what domain in your life you're valuing at that point as well, right?
00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:34.400
Like if your goal is like hormone health or fertility, the behaviors that are going to align with that are going to look really different to if you're valuing the domain of work, for example.
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:35.039
100%.
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:44.480
My fertility clients are often very uh sort of they're compliant, essentially, because you know, they have a really obvious goal.
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:49.119
They know X, if they do X and Y equals Z, you know, they can see a really clear picture.
00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:57.200
But if you don't, if your goal is just like overall wellness, it can be a challenge to like remember that you can actually feel so much better than you're feeling right now.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:59.039
You don't know until you know.
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:01.119
You don't realize it's become your new normal.
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:06.559
And then you start to feel better and you go, wow, that's like I feel like a completely different human.
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:07.440
I can think differently.
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:09.759
I can take people put different glasses on.
00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:10.880
So true.
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:11.920
That's so true.
00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:20.400
Tell us about like in this on the same line, the food that can have an impact on our cortisol levels.
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:26.960
Because I'm sort of thinking like blood sugar cortisol relationship, which honestly I've only kind of learned about in the last year.
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:28.400
I had no idea.
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:34.400
Um, I, for example, was wearing a CGM, so a continuous glucose monitor on my arm.
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:45.039
And um, I just thought when I was signing myself up to that, that I would just be observing the relationship between the food that I was eating and um my blood sugar levels.
00:20:45.200 --> 00:21:01.039
But I realized like food is firstly very important, but also anxiety and stress and um because I had to give a big presentation and all of a sudden my my blood glucose started climbing because I was so stressed.
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:04.000
So um I've kind of brought in a third factor here.
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:13.680
But I guess what I'm interested in is that sort of relationship between like cortisol, the our blood sugar stress, anxiety, like all of that picture.
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:24.720
Yeah, it's a really big one I focus on actually because I feel like um blood sugar is probably one of the most, if not like the most foundational thing you can look after for your health.
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:27.039
But the anxiety that goes with it is huge.
00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:33.920
So yeah, I would say for so cortisol essentially can yeah, destabilize your blood sugar entirely.
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:51.519
So if you are stressed and you have increased cortisol, it's going to uh essentially make you more insulin resistant, uh, which means that your cells are not going to be as effective at like opening up the door and letting the glucose in uh to basically be used.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:55.680
So you end up with more glucose and insulin in your bloodstream.
00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.440
Um, and therefore you're going to probably sleep better, you're going to feel anxious.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:11.279
You're more likely to have things like depression, weight gain, irregular hormones, might stop ovulating, or you know, things like polycystic ovarian syndrome come into that picture as well.
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:21.680
So, you know, blood glucose to me is really, really kind of the foundation of like mental health and hormone health.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:32.480
Um, because when you have those destabilizations and you move into an insulin resistant picture, it has a knock-on effect to absolutely everything in your body.
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:35.440
Um, and so I really, really think that yeah, stress.
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:38.480
I I often see clients who eat the perfect diet.
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:41.920
Like, you know, I'm like, oh wow, what a wonderfully beautiful diet.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:45.680
And their blood glucose and insulin is crazy and it's stress.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:47.119
It's cortisol.
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:51.279
It's you know, it it's it's really, really impacted by that is lack of sleep.
00:22:51.440 --> 00:23:11.839
I mean, you can read the studies and you you might have come across them, you know, around how having the difference between having seven hours sleep versus nine hours sleep can completely change your blood glucose, um, which then in turn can completely change your hormone health and your neurotransmitter health and the way you feel and your energy and your cravings and you know has a complete knock-on effect.
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:13.759
But I would say those two are, yeah.
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:17.680
Blood sugar is one of the biggest things I focus on with people, and it feels so simple.
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:21.759
I'm always like, I know this sounds so simple, but I'm we're going to like really, really look at this.
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:29.359
And what I would also really important to say about that is blood glucose monitoring is great, but that's just one aspect of it.
00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:31.119
Your glucose could look perfect.
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:34.880
You could have sort of your HBA1C done at the doctor's, looks perfect.
00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:37.440
You have to look at your insulin as well.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:45.359
Um, that's only one part of the picture, and people kind of get obsessed with their little monitors and think everything looks great, and actually underneath it's not.
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:51.440
Um, but yeah, it's it's it's one of the biggest underlying things for your mental health, your physical health, your hormone health.
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:52.319
It's huge.
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:53.200
Wow.
00:23:53.440 --> 00:24:04.160
And so then if we're talking on the nutritional level, then what would your nutritional advice be around maintaining your blood sugars and therefore that sort of hormone health as well?
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:05.920
I have two lenses of it.
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:10.640
I mean, look, I go down the love to have 20 to 30 grams of protein at each meal.
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:12.960
You know, that's typically right for a lot of people.
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:27.759
Good fats, uh, sort of, you know, if you're in your sort of 30s, 40s, having lower carbohydrate as a general rule can be really wonderful for those perimenopausal-menopausal women who become more insulin resistant as they lose estrogen.
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:32.400
Um, but I would say there's there's the other side of it, is it's the way you eat.
00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:40.000
So look, if you're going to eat a biscuit, like have the biscuit, please just have a few almonds before and maybe go for a little walk after.
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:42.000
But don't become pedantic about it either.
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:52.160
If you sit and eat that cookie in a really relaxed way, like loving way, and you're like, oh, this is the best cookie, and I'm like, I'm so like, I'm not deserved this, it's not the right word.
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:58.000
But you know, like I like I'm not gonna feel guilty about this and genuinely believe that your blood glucose probably won't do much.
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:05.519
If you sit there and you're like, I can't believe I just ate a cookie, like it's so naughty, now I need to do this, this, and this, your blood glucose is probably gonna go mad.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:17.920
So I think it's it's a two-way street of yeah, eat your protein, have your dessert as part of your meal to stabilize the blood sugar and do the sciencey stuff, but also have a look at your relationship, look at your self-talk, look at the environment.
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:20.400
Did you watch something kind of stressful while you were eating?
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:23.680
Like, did you watch a zombie movie at dinner when you were eating your dinner?
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:26.000
Like that's gonna make your blood glucose crazy.
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:31.200
Um, so it's a it's a real sort of like loving relationship to food and yourself as well.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:32.559
That is so beautiful.
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:51.680
And I really don't think people understand that relationship because what I could hear you saying there was that sort of shame and guilt that we can kind of plant on ourselves for eating something that falls out of that like quote unquote healthy bracket, like actually has an impact on the way that our body responds to that vote.
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:52.720
Huge.
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:59.599
And like I do find I I test with clients, I say, okay, two weeks of a glucose monitor, first week eat like normal, do your normal thing.
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:06.480
Second week, we put in the extra protein and the 10-minute walk after a meal and you know, eating with no distractions and things like that.
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:12.000
But sometimes I don't see a huge benefit because they get so obsessed with it and they're so stressed about it.
00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:15.599
And I'm like, look, look, you ate with no stress the week before.
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:17.599
Maybe that's actually better for you.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:23.440
You know, like just to not be obsessed with it is actually really a huge part of it.
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:24.720
Amazing, hey.
00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:29.599
It kind of illustrates that double-edged sword, and like there's no such thing as just pure health.
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:35.759
Like the it again, it depends on your relationship with what we're talking about, doesn't it?
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:36.960
Um, I love that.
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:38.960
I think that's that's such practical advice.
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:43.039
But the the message, it sounds like is hey, just take it, hold it lightly.
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:47.359
Remember that balance is really important and don't make it.
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:56.079
Everything's a trend with food, you know, like proteins having its moment, creatine's having its moment, like whatever, all these things have their moment.
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:59.759
But at the end of the day, like it really, really is about balance.
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:11.119
And I think if you can eat, like I remember studying at naturopathic college, and the advice was everyone should eat and eat food now that they can eat from now until they're 90 years old.
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:18.240
Like eat sustainably, eat so that it makes you feel good now, it makes you feel good when you're 40, it makes you feel good when you're 50 onwards.
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:20.720
And I think that's just a really beautiful way of looking at it.
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:24.079
Like, find what makes you feel good, makes you feel your best.
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:31.920
It might be 40 grams of protein each meal, it might be 20, you know, just yeah, I think we can get really caught up in all the the hype.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:33.200
Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:33.920
You're so right.
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:39.200
Things absolutely have their moments and they become trendy and everybody wants to to jump on the wagon.
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:42.640
But I love that message of just eat sustainably.
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:44.799
Um, that is so important.
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:51.039
And it feels like sustainable kind of removes a lot of maybe the anxiety around different foods too.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:28:01.680
I think a lot of the time we can just jump on kind of crash diets or go like keto or remove massive food groups out of our diet, and actually that's not sustainable.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:04.000
Yeah, and there might be a time and place for that.
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:18.160
You know, there might be a real specific health goal that, you know, like work with people with brain conditions or um, you know, things that really works to do a ketogenic diet for six weeks, you know, and you go, wow, that really helped them mend like their mental health.
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:25.680
You know, a lot of people with a lot of anxiety and depression, especially in perimenopause, do really well with a six-week ketogenic diet to reset them.
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:34.079
You know, that's like there's totally a time and place, but it's sort of um, yeah, it just it's not sustainable for forever.
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:36.160
So then what can we do from that?
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:37.200
That's so true.
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:38.720
No, I completely agree with that.
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:47.599
There's a lot of research around the psychology world at the moment of using keto for things like um schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and that sort of thing.
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:55.359
And and you're so right, it being kind of goal-directed, and maybe um there might be sort of like a time restriction on it feels important.
00:28:55.519 --> 00:28:59.200
So, so agree with you.
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:12.160
Um, the people that are in that, you know, they've had that sort of high cortisol, they've been in that fight or flight, that addiction distress, and then they've kind of dropped over into the other side, low cortisol kind of burnout.
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:19.759
What is the what are some of the nutritional lifestyle kind of um recommendations you'll be making to somebody there?
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:27.759
Yeah, one of the first things I'd be looking at uh with my hormone hat on, um, is looking at their hormones.
00:29:27.839 --> 00:30:10.319
If they've really depleted an estrogen and progesterone, I'd be looking at really nourishing that side of things, whether it's something even like a bioidentical um HRT, you know, some progesterone potentially, uh, because progesterone, you know, I can't talk enough about progesterone for our mental health and for our for every aspect of our health, but progesterone breaks down in the body into metabolites, and one of those metabolites uh can convert into something called allopregnanolone and go into the brain and and can sort of interact with GABA, which is our calming neurotransmitter, and can make us anti-anxiety, anti-like it's an antidepressive, it relieves pain, it's you know, it's just like the sedative for the brain.
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:15.519
Um, and I kind of look at it from that angle a lot of the time with the woman that I see.
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:32.880
Do they need a little bit of that to just get them feeling really good, to give them a bit of support so that they can actually undertake a protocol to, you know, because when you're really, really burnt out, it's really hard to like undertake a protocol of eating in a specific way, taking certain supplements, you know.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:41.519
So sometimes I'll look at sort of can we help them hormonally in the short term to to sort of boost them, boost them up and then really sleep on it.
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:55.119
I cannot say how much like I've seen people's like ovarian reserve replenish, not like entirely, but like, you know, jump up their AMH jump up quite a few points by just starting to sleep properly.
00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:09.680
Like we cannot talk about sleep enough, like eight to nine to ten hours a night for women, non-negotiable sleep hygiene, not exercising too much, if at all, if they're really low cortisol, that's really important.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:13.599
I don't want to put more fire fuel on the fire of stress.
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:18.480
Um, and then in terms of eating, it's sort of, I mean, of course, like low sugar.
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:34.240
Sugar is a stressor, sugar that is going to, you know, impact your body, but more focusing on just sort of like nourishing whole foods, which is just, you know, and eating protein to nourish the adrenal glands and fat to get the because all of our hormones, the precursor is fat, it's cholesterol.
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:44.400
So to eat some beautiful good fats, your avocados, fish, meats, if you eat meat, you know, all those kinds of things to really like like renourish people again.
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:52.400
Um, but sleep will probably be my like number one thing in terms of starting to rebuild, which is like the harder is is quality sleep too.
00:31:52.559 --> 00:32:00.079
Like how many people are sleeping eight hours or nine hours, but they're like waking a lot and they're like haven't wound down properly and they're not not getting deep sleep?
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:01.839
It's about quality as well.
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:03.519
That's so important.
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:04.480
I love that.
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:07.519
That sleep feels exceptionally underrated.
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:11.599
And I think it can be one of those things that we compare to other people as well.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:17.440
Like, oh my gosh, I'm having nine hours or ten hours of sleep, but that person only needs seven.
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:19.759
You know, maybe I only need seven.
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:20.880
And yeah.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:22.079
Ridiculous.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:22.880
It's like mad.
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:26.480
And like, you know, those people are having like eight, nine hours, they wake up still tired.
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:28.240
I'm like, you need probably more sleep.
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:41.920
You know, like it's really like we I mean, we look at people, like I always think of Margaret Thatcher as an example, you know, like you know she was praised for her like four hours sleep, and then she ends up, you know, with with um Alzheimer's.
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:48.319
And you know, you just you just like not to say that's a direct link, but like, you know, there's a lot of correlation there.
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:51.680
But you know, we get there's this praise for not sleeping much and working more.
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:54.000
And oh my gosh, I'm so in the other camp of that now.
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:55.359
I love when I get a big sleep.
00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:56.720
It's like the best thing ever.
00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:58.240
Yeah, that's so true.
00:32:58.400 --> 00:32:59.279
No, that's so true.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:08.000
There is a lot of praise um out there for for not sleeping, being more productive, but actually, how effective are you being if you are not getting the sleep that you need?
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:14.160
Like, surely if you have a good eight, nine, ten hour sleep, you're going to be wildly more effective than four, five, six.
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:20.640
And you know, I what I often share with my perimenopause clients um is around sleep and weight loss.
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:22.480
Because that's huge.
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:32.559
You know, there's a study, and I might not quote it correctly now, um, because I read it a while ago, but it was the difference between six hours sleep and under and eight plus hours sleep.
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:32.960
Yeah.
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:39.680
Um and the way that you burn fat completely changes, and the type of fat that you burn completely changes.
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:44.240
And you're so much more efficient at burning fat when you've had that eight-hour sleep.
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:58.319
Um, this was all monitored, and you know, look, I can't remember the exact details anymore, but like, you know, sharing that with people about how you can, you know, you you can completely change your entire well-being by that's so underrated.
00:33:58.400 --> 00:33:59.200
And do you know what?
00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:09.920
Um, after going to Gwengana, the health retreat in Australia, and they they say something similar about the importance of sleep and fat loss and stress as well.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:16.320
And they kind of put one, two, three, four, five in terms of um what are the most effective factors for fat loss.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:28.079
And I think because all of us think it's oh, like restricting my diet and exercising more, which as we have been talking about actually can often or sometimes have the opposite desired effect.
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:36.159
But I think, you know, a lot of what you're saying today is we need to be valuing sleep, we need to be valuing kind of stress management and the food.
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:43.119
Yes, absolutely the food and the exercise, but um, we shouldn't be kind of overvaluing, you know, one thing over another.
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:44.480
It's all of these things too.
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:49.039
It's everything combined and like if you can just sleep properly.
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:59.119
Like, I kind of have these like in my head, these kind of things of if I can get somebody moving their bowels daily, because that's like so important for your hormone health, it just like you can't look past it.
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:06.400
Sleeping eight to ten hours a night and like eating some good protein and fat, and like you will just see the biggest change.
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:07.920
And it sounds so simple.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:16.400
And then, of course, there's more complex cases where you have to get rid of infections and do all these kinds of things, but like if you can get those like real fundamentals, sometimes you don't need to see people again.
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:17.519
It's amazing.
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:18.960
That's incredible.
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:20.159
That is so incredible.
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:23.679
Let's talk periods, women's health.
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:38.719
Um, I am so keen to get your perspective because I see quite a few clients in my clinical work who notice that around their period they experience significant mood disturbance.
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:43.440
And for some people, that can even look like suicidal ideation.
00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:53.119
Um, a lot of the time it's like isolation, you're noticing that kind of general low mood picture, not wanting to eat, their sleep being disrupted, that sort of thing.
00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:56.960
Tell me about that from a hormone perspective.
00:35:57.599 --> 00:35:59.679
It's something I see all the time as well.
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:06.559
And um, you know, uh, like I said earlier, our hormones are so intricately connected with our neurotransmitters.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:13.920
So they're making, you know, interacting with our serotonin and our dopamine and things like that and how we how we feel in terms of our mood.
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:22.400
And so you could be looking at somebody with just severe sort of PMS, um, something where the estrogen is dropping.
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:26.000
Estrogen has a very lovely relationship with serotonin.
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:29.519
So as estrogen increases, so too does serotonin typically.
00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:32.480
And then as it decreases, serotonin kind of decreases as well.
00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:36.079
And that, you know, makes feel really good and all those kind of wonderful things.
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:45.119
But if you have a really massive drop-off of estrogen and your estrogen just plummets and goes really low, your serotonin is likely to do so as well.
00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:48.960
Uh, and your estrogen has a very intricate relationship with dopamine as well.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:37:00.719
It can really encourage the uptake of dopamine and um enhance receptor receptivity as well, and you know, it can really make you sort of feel focused and energized and have more clarity.
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:07.280
And so if you have these massive swings from estrogen, for example, you could be feeling wonderful one minute.
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:09.440
And a lot of ADHD clients feel this.
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:19.199
They feel so good, so focused, and then suddenly they crash, and that estrogen drop, suddenly they feel like, oh my god, I can't concentrate, I can't think, it's the drop of dopamine and serotonin.
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:24.320
Um, it could be kind of that kind of picture, or it could be a more of a PMDD type picture.
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:33.599
And PMDD is such a fascinating one in the hormone world because it doesn't actually technically have to do with the levels of estrogen and progesterone.
00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:39.840
So it's not sort of like so much the crash, it's the sensitivity of that person's brain to the hormones.
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:50.159
And so there's kind of this like thought with PMDD that you don't need to give hormones like progesterone, like with bioidentical hormone replacement.
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:53.679
But I see something really different happening in clinic.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:38:02.239
And the clinic that I um co-founded is we now have an HRT clinic and we work with PMDD clients, future women.
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:16.960
And I see actually giving some of these people more progesterone, it kind of floods their receptors and it gives their receptors, which are so sensitive to progesterone, a chance to actually take it up in the brain and use it, and they find such relief.
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:24.480
And of course, that's not everyone, but I would say, you know, with PMDD, look, it can feel like massive depression.
00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:30.639
So you know, you can have that suicide sort of um picture as well, where you feel sort of really fixated on that.
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:38.079
Um, you can have people who just like they cannot cope for half of their periods, and then when their period comes, oh, they're like a new person.
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:46.960
So if like somebody's listening and that sounds like them and they don't have a PMDD diagnosis, I would seriously encourage them to seek one.
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:54.000
The thing is once you have a diagnosis, the treatment is often antidepressants and things like that, but it's not actually addressing what's going on.
00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:55.920
What's actually going on is the sensitivity.
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:58.639
So you need heaps of nervous system support.
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:01.360
Um, you know, there's loads and loads and loads of things we can do.
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:12.800
But I also like to try people on things like bioidentical progesterone, which is not probably like what I would say is conventional um these days, but I've seen it work wonders.
00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:19.039
So yeah, it's look, it could if it's cyclical like that, it's something like PMDD.
00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:23.280
Is your brain being really sensitive to the fluctuations?
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:26.000
That's such an important word, I think.
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:38.159
Hey, because I think there might be some people listening that go, yeah, I definitely notice a mood disturbance every month, but maybe they have, or like, you know, every few weeks, but maybe kind of haven't tracked when that happens.
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:40.800
And so that feels really important, right?
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:45.679
To just be curious about when in the month that is happening for somebody.
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:51.039
A hundred percent, because it has a completely different sort of underlying pathology.
00:39:51.119 --> 00:40:09.039
Like, you know, it's got a completely different, you know, if you've got depression and a mood disorder or something like that, it's not going to follow such a strict, vast change where they feel amazing, normal and amazing up into ovulation and from ovulation to their period, it's like two different people.
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:11.840
Um, you know, really, really, really stark conscious.
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:20.000
And I see people really struggling, like, you know, really unable to go on, unable to keep jobs, you know, when they have PMDD.
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:22.719
It's really, really challeng really challenging.
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:25.920
It's so challenging and so debilitating.
00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:34.960
And just hearing you say that often the treatment is antidepressants just feels so upsetting because it's not getting to the root cause for people.
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:44.719
And it's kind of sending this message that I don't know, that there's something the thing that they're saying is wrong is actually not the thing that is that is wrong.
00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:50.480
And it feels like it's like oversimplifying actually quite a complicated, important picture that needs to be uncovered.
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:51.360
100%.
00:40:51.679 --> 00:41:01.440
And you know, progesterone's not seen as a typical treatment because people with PMDD are seen to be very um sensitive to the metabolite, allopregnanolone, of progesterone.
00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:03.760
And so like it's seen to be almost a cause.
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:06.639
So more progesterone seemed to like make things worse.
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:11.599
But I've actually seen clinically a very different picture to that.
00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:14.719
Like, you know, so I think there's so much that we don't understand.
00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:16.639
There's so much that's still to be understood.
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:28.639
And I think, you know, if you have something like PMDD and you've been given antidepressants and it's still not if nothing's changed, you just need more support with the right person who can look at things a bit holistically for you as well.
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:34.480
And of course you want to support your neurotransmitters and hormones, but there's so many other aspects of it as well.
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:35.760
Absolutely.
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:37.199
That is so true.
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:55.280
With speaking of that kind of cyclical relationship, if we were to kind of look at a woman's cycle from day one to let's say day 28, um, what might they notice about some mental health symptoms, psychological symptoms that might show up kind of at each stage of the cycle?
00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:56.719
Such a good question.
00:41:56.800 --> 00:42:14.159
And, you know, depending on what your your hormones are doing, but typically if you look at like a sort of like quote unquote sort of like normal textbook uh thing, people start to feel, you know, from their period, their period's finished, and as your estrogen starts to increase, they'll start to feel pretty good.
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:18.719
That's to kind of like the time people are like, you know, oh, I kind of want to exercise, I feel quite good.
00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:24.320
Those with ADHD will start to feel like better or more focused with that increase in dopamine, increase in serotonin.
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:28.960
By ovulation, it's kind of that classic, like, you know, people feeling really good.
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:36.559
But I often see people with major estrogen sensitivities and histamine problems who actually feel really crappy at that time.
00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:42.719
You know, they're like, I'm meant to feel amazing at ovulation, I meant to be glowing, I meant to be like radiating, and I feel like crap.
00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:47.599
Um, so you know, I think, you know, this it's it really is a sign something's going on.
00:42:47.760 --> 00:43:00.800
Um, then what can really happen is when you have that estrogen drop, depending on how sharp it is, you see a decrease in serotonin, a decrease in dopamine, and you can start to see sort of a bit of a um a lower picture.
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:07.519
People can get sort of more cravings because estrogen also actually makes you more insulin sensitive.
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:10.320
Um, it can actually keep your blood sugar more stable.
00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:12.400
So when it crashes, you can get more cravings.
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:16.400
So your appetite increases, um, you get more cravings.
00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:22.239
Progesterone, though, as that kicks in into your luteal phase, you've ovulated, progesterone kicks in.
00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:35.119
Progesterone, if you have enough, should cross into the brain, interact with GABA, and make you feel really calm, give you great quality sleep, anti-anxiety, feeling just like really peaceful.
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:38.159
But if you don't have enough, you're probably not gonna feel that.
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:41.679
If your progesterone is dropping, you're gonna have really crappy sleep.
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:47.280
So, you know, it a sign that you have, you know, there's kind of symptoms, something's probably going on.
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:53.840
And then towards your period, yeah, people can people can really crash if things go too low because of the drop in neurotransmitters.
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:59.760
Depends on their nervous system, depends on their nutrient status, it depends on so many.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:00.880
Different things.
00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:12.159
But you know, typically I would say if you are very, I don't know what the word is, sort of like well-roundedly looked after and look after yourself, you wouldn't notice too much of a change as you go through your cycle.
00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:14.719
I don't tell people to eat in a different way during their cycle.
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:16.320
I think that's too much mental load.
00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:17.599
Like, oh, just eat.
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:21.039
You don't need to think about that as well as feeling crappy or whatever.
00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:23.119
Just like, don't worry about that.
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:27.599
Um, but I'd say like if you're feeling big differences, that's a sign something's going on.
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:31.760
Oh, that's that's such a good kind of red flag for people to be aware of.
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:38.880
If there are kind of marked differences across your cycle that are destabilizing you day to day, that's a sign to reach out.
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:40.079
Definitely.
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:41.920
Yeah, that's really massive.
00:44:42.000 --> 00:45:05.119
Hey, because again, I know I'm I'm sort of like harping on about the same thing today, but it feels like a lot of this can be normalized, you know, just out on social media or like seeing things on TV that these words are thrown around and it means that there's this normalization of destabilization of mood or sleep or whatever it may be.
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:06.079
Entirely.
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:09.840
And if your blood sugar is dysregulated, for example, you won't make as much progesterone.
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:11.119
Um, but I think you're right.
00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:27.119
I think media and social media and movies, they do us a real disservice because we're not meant to have cramps, it's not meant to be painful, it's not meant to be exhausting, you're not meant to lose heaps of blood with your period, like it's not supposed to be flooding, like you know, it's like it really is not meant to be like that.
00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:31.119
And if you're having pain, you're having these things, it's actually not normal.
00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:34.159
Yeah, that is such an important message.
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:38.239
And so people that are like, oh, that is definitely me.
00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:42.159
What kind of practitioner do you recommend that they reach out to?
00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:45.519
I mean, of course, I would say someone like you, like a naturopath.
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:47.039
What's your sense?
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:51.760
Yeah, I think a naturopath's a brilliant place to start, just with the holistic sort of view on it.
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:54.559
But you want to make sure somebody's had additional training.
00:45:54.719 --> 00:46:02.880
Um, you know, people don't pop out of university with a sort of full uh training and being a specialist in women's health.
00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:10.320
You just really want to look for somebody who's actually, you know, kept up with experts around the world and done additional trainings, because I think that's really important.
00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:21.199
Um, especially if you're dealing with something as severe as PMDD, you need to have somebody who, you know, ask the do a 15-minute free call and ask them, have like what's your success been like with PMDD?
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:22.480
Like, have you had many cases?
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:24.000
What's your training?
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:32.559
Like, it's don't be embarrassed to ask those questions because if you're going to spend the money and time with someone, you want to really know they know what they're talking about with your sort of particular thing.
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:35.039
But a natural path is a great place to start.
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:39.199
Some wonderful nutritionists with women's health training out there as well.
00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:44.079
If you have something like PMDD, you're talking with mood, obviously a psychologist in conjunction.
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:46.800
I always send my clients to psychologists and therapists.
00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:52.639
And because I like that's out of my scope of practice, I can't, I can't deal with that side of it for them.
00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:54.960
And I think having multiple people is amazing.
00:46:55.039 --> 00:47:03.039
So having like a team, you know, even for just for a short time, if it's a sort of financial difficulty as well, um, I understand that for a lot of people.
00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:04.159
Absolutely.
00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:05.679
I so agree with you.
00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:11.119
I think the the value of the different lenses is just so phenomenal.
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:19.760
And as you say, even just for a short time, but just to maybe get a few different lenses so you can start to kind of dip your toe in different ways of managing.
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:23.920
It's interesting though, because you know, I know you and I have talked about this before.
00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:30.400
It's sort of you don't want to dip your toes in too many pools because then you're going, one person said this and the other person said that.
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:35.920
And then I looked online and Chat GPT told me this other thing, you know, and then it's like actually really overwhelming.
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:41.360
So it's actually lovely to have one person that you sort of give them a real shot as well.
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:42.639
I think that's really important.
00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:49.760
And like actually try for like at least three months with that person um to really, to really give it a go.
00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:51.599
Oh, I think that is so true.
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:52.559
That is so true.
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:57.840
One person that is kind of across all aspects of your life is so valuable.
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:00.320
I think that's yeah, a very important point.
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:16.800
And I think something that I mean I notice as a psychologist too is that sometimes people can like jump around a little bit with psychologists and then they end up feeling really conflicted because they've been told different things or given different tools, and it just becomes more complicated than it needs to be.
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:24.639
So to have one person like you who is so across, you know, the the hot that person's whole life is just, yeah, incredibly valuable.
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:27.199
I often explain that to like my fertility clients.
00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:31.440
I'm like, hey, you're going through IVF here, you're seeing this person here, acupunctures, whatever.
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:35.280
I will collate everything and help you move forward.
00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:39.199
Like I'll kind of be your middleman for you so that you don't have to do that.
00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:49.519
Um, because it's so overwhelming if you you hear this entire conversation from one side, another side, you know, I'd say send me everything and I will like collate it for you and we'll make like a plan together.
00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:54.800
Um and I think when you're going through anything health related, you don't have extra energy to think about that kind of stuff.
00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:55.599
You don't.
00:48:55.679 --> 00:49:00.719
You're just exhausted, whether it's fertility journey or a mental health journey, whatever it is.
00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:02.800
It's like you can't, you just need help.
00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:04.159
Oh, that's so true.
00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:04.880
That's so true.
00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:08.320
And that's where the value of that one person can really come in.
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:13.119
Um what do you wish more women were told earlier about their hormones?
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:14.480
Well, it's such a good one.
00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:16.960
I to be I'm really fixated on progesterone.
00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:19.840
Well, that's great because I was going to ask you more about that.
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:21.280
So go for your life.
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:26.800
I wish people knew the the importance of progesterone and that we only make progesterone after we ovulate.
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:32.559
And I wish people knew how important it is, not only for your mental health, but the studies linking it to longevity.
00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:38.960
The more you're exposed to progesterone, the longer you live, the healthier your bones, the healthier your mental health.
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:53.679
You know, like I wish people knew that because we shut down ovulation at the earliest possible chance with contraception, the pill, things like that, and young people aren't exposed to progesterone for a really long time until they're trying to have a baby and have issues.
00:49:53.840 --> 00:50:04.320
Um, so I wish people were told the not only for your reproductive health, but for your mental health, for your physical health, for your longevity, how important progesterone is.
00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:06.960
It just like it is so vital.
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:08.880
I love that.
00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:20.880
And that's something I'm imagining falls under the testing kind of bracket of like it's impossible for somebody to really be sure about their progesterone levels right unless they've got it tested via a blood test.
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:30.400
Yeah, you could do like your basal body temperature tracking to know you're ovulating, and then you can kind of get a sense of how high your temperature is as to how much progesterone you're producing.
00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:32.480
Progesterone sort of raises the temperature.
00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:42.480
So you could do basal body uh temperature tracking or a blood test to confirm that you've got enough sort of five to seven days after ovulation or a urine test.
00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:50.800
You know, we use the Dutch test at Future Women to sort of track and make sure that you're making enough and that you've got enough of each metabolite as well.
00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:52.639
Um, I would say, yeah.
00:50:52.719 --> 00:51:03.679
Yeah, I mean you you also kind of know symptom symptom-wise, in terms of if you're struggling to sleep, you're feeling anxious, you're feeling crappy in the second half of your cycle, you probably don't have enough progesterone.
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:09.920
See, yeah, that's that's amazing for somebody to to be able to understand what to look out for for sure.
00:51:10.159 --> 00:51:10.239
Yeah.
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:12.320
So if it came Yeah.
00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:20.960
If it if it then came back that somebody's progesterone was actually quite low and they weren't making enough of it, what does someone do then?
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:24.400
So progesterone needs beautiful building blocks.
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:25.119
It needs fat.
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:27.039
So making sure they're eating enough fat in their diet.
00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:30.880
A lot of young people sort of cut fat out diet-wise, trendy, whatever.
00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:34.000
Um, it it needs sleep, it needs nutrients.
00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:40.559
There's a like a you know, a lot of nutrients, like your certain B vitamins, like B6, for example, that you really need to make progesterone.
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:47.119
Um, but I would say again, it kind of like I feel like a broken record, but it comes back to sleeping well, not over-exercising and eating enough.
00:51:47.199 --> 00:51:48.880
Like that's your basics.
00:51:49.039 --> 00:51:56.639
And then look, if you're really struggling, there's loads of things that we can additionally look at to really help your brain communicate with your ovaries properly.
00:51:56.719 --> 00:52:03.119
Like if it's a stress issue and your brain's not communicating properly to your ovaries to make enough to ovulate, then we can do additional things.
00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:10.960
Sleeping, eating enough fat, and um and not over exercising would be like a really important starting point.
00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:16.559
That's so cool because that's kind of accessible to most people right now, right?
00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:35.199
Like, even though I know you you said, Oh, I feel like a broken record, but actually that's quite cool because it means that there's sort of like these consistent factors that if we can really work towards them, that they will um help us a lot in a lot of different realms, like with burnout, hormone sort of stabilization, which is so, so, so good.
00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:43.280
What I guess in terms of uh non-negotiable practices for you, do you do in your life?
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:54.000
That you, if there's anything outside of that sort of sleep, nutrition, movement, do you do on that front?
00:52:55.039 --> 00:52:56.000
Very good question.
00:52:56.159 --> 00:52:58.159
I I am a daily meditator.
00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:01.840
Yeah, I for me that's really important.
00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:08.719
Um for me, it's just between five to fifteen minutes in the morning, and I meditate and I visualize.
00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:14.400
I'm a real big manifestor, and I really, really, really believe, and there's there's a science of it as well.
00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:20.159
You know, saying some I am statements like I am healthy, I am well, I whatever.
00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:22.639
Um I just think it's really life-changing.
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:31.280
And so that for me is like my non-negotiable is just like five to ten minutes and a little stretch because I feel like to just get into your body for the day.
00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:35.119
Um, but it's really non-negotiable, and I'll do it with my toddler crawling all over me.
00:53:35.199 --> 00:53:36.719
I will like, I will do it no matter what.
00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:38.400
Like it just the habit.
00:53:38.559 --> 00:53:40.880
I will not break the habit of doing it.
00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:44.079
Um, yeah, that's a that's a biggie for me.
00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:45.280
That is so cool.
00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:46.639
I love that side of things.
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:53.360
I think that is so crucial for us to like firstly, even just having this protected space that is just ours in the morning.
00:53:53.519 --> 00:54:00.320
What a great way to start the day, to be kind of committing to to yourself, doing something that you know sets you up.
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:08.000
Um, and it kind of, I love that practice because it means that we're intentionally putting our attention somewhere.
00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:08.639
Yes.
00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:09.920
I love that thing.
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:11.360
Yeah, and it's really positive.
00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:18.079
And then, you know, after you've meditated, you kind of actually, if if it's kind of worked, you feel the difference already.
00:54:18.159 --> 00:54:22.880
Like you can, you know, I'll often manifest myself feeling like more vital and well.
00:54:22.960 --> 00:54:26.239
And, you know, every day I wake up, I'm more vital and more healthy and more well.
00:54:26.320 --> 00:54:28.880
And then I'll feel it like actually change in my body.
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:32.000
And I just think like, oh look, if it's placebo, wonderful.
00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:34.000
And if it's actually working, wonderful.
00:54:34.239 --> 00:54:34.880
It's working.
00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:35.599
Exactly.
00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:37.199
Either way, I win.
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:39.280
So that's really true.
00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:42.639
That's something that does not cost us anything, right?
00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:46.000
Like that's something that, like you said, five to ten minutes.
00:54:46.159 --> 00:54:54.719
I think sometimes that can be a barrier for people doing something like meditation, is thinking that it has to be this full sit-down 30-minute practice.
00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:56.880
And like, I need a reminder.
00:54:56.960 --> 00:54:59.199
I use insight timer and it reminds me every morning.
00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:02.559
It's like, hey, like, you know, and I'm like, oh, yeah.
00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:04.639
It's not like I'm like, oh, I can't wait to meditate.
00:55:04.880 --> 00:55:06.239
Like, I feel so excited to do it.
00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:11.360
No, I I'm probably about to scroll in bed and I'm like, oh my gosh, okay, yeah, thank you, phone.
00:55:11.519 --> 00:55:13.199
Up we get, let's do it.
00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:20.880
Like it's not like, you know, the easiest thing in the world at all, but just just lying there for breathing for a few minutes, game changing.
00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:22.159
That's amazing.
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:22.800
How cool.
00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:25.679
And to get the benefits, it sounds like just five minutes.
00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:28.559
That's something that we can all we can all commit to, which is awesome.
00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:37.039
And I like the insight timer reminder for those of us that it's not when it's not a routine or something yet, it's nice to have a reminder.
00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:37.920
I love it.
00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:38.960
It's so good.
00:55:39.199 --> 00:55:40.400
That's so cool.
00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:47.039
Now, hey, I have a few rapid fire questions for you to wrap this amazing chat up.
00:55:47.119 --> 00:55:52.320
Oh my gosh, I've just been thinking, this has been so incredibly valuable, and I have learned so much from you.
00:55:52.400 --> 00:55:53.840
So I'm so grateful to you.
00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:57.039
I'm so happy to have been able to have this time with you.
00:55:57.119 --> 00:55:57.840
It's amazing.
00:55:58.239 --> 00:55:59.679
You thank you.
00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:03.280
So, hey, don't think too hard about these, just go with your gut.
00:56:03.679 --> 00:56:06.559
And there's uh actually, but there's no rules, so do what you want.
00:56:06.880 --> 00:56:13.360
So, um, number one, one thing that you'd never compromise on for your own hormonal health.
00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:14.239
Sleep.
00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:15.199
Love it, sleep.
00:56:15.679 --> 00:56:19.039
A book that has had a big impact on you.
00:56:19.840 --> 00:56:24.079
Hey, there's so many, but I've just recently read Many Masters, Many Lives.
00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:24.639
Yes.
00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:33.440
Um, and I could just because in my work in fertility, although it's so scientific, it's also very spiritual.
00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:39.599
And it's like a beautiful reminder to me of like there's so much out of our control in the fertility world as well.
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:48.159
Um, and to like sort of remind myself of that and to have that conversation with clients too, on top of all the science and the testing and all that wonderful stuff too.
00:56:48.320 --> 00:56:49.519
But great book.
00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:53.519
Oh, I love you recommended that to me, and I uh love it.
00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:54.239
Absolutely.
00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:55.599
Yeah.
00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:56.960
It is it is so cool.
00:56:57.119 --> 00:57:03.440
No, even if you don't sort of if you don't believe it all, it's a great reminder about putting things in perspective.
00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:05.679
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:07.599
No, that's a great recommendation.
00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:09.199
Actually, maybe I'll read it again now.
00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:10.480
You've reminded me of it.
00:57:11.519 --> 00:57:16.480
Um a non-negotiable, just generally in your daily routine.
00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:18.480
Non-negotiable.
00:57:19.119 --> 00:57:29.760
Uh I mean it would be the meditation, and I would also say it as like a like a little bit of a stretch, like just to move my body every morning in some like in a tiny way.
00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:32.400
Like it doesn't have to it just move a little bit.
00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:34.400
I'd say that's my yeah.
00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:35.760
That's amazing.
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:36.719
Love that.
00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:41.199
Something that you're irrationally passionate about.
00:57:42.559 --> 00:57:43.679
Progesterone.
00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:45.519
Really?
00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:46.400
I really am.
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:57.760
I just think, you know, for people with PMS, people with PMDD, people with anxiety, people on fertility journeys, people on perimenopause, people on like we could all do with more progesterone.
00:57:58.079 --> 00:57:59.280
Oh, I love that.
00:57:59.440 --> 00:58:04.400
I think you know, you were very justified in feeling irrationally passionate about that.
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:05.920
Yeah, it's rational.
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:06.639
Yeah.
00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:07.360
It is.
00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:09.199
It is rational, exactly.
00:58:09.519 --> 00:58:16.159
I would say my other additional one to that is uh unexplained fertility is just uninvestigated fertility.
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:20.800
That's like my other real passionate one is like there's always a reason.
00:58:20.960 --> 00:58:23.280
There's always a reason that you're not getting pregnant.
00:58:23.599 --> 00:58:24.079
Totally.
00:58:24.239 --> 00:58:33.679
And that I think you were so amazing at you were speaking about it before the root cause, finding the root cause of something that is so true and something to actually.
00:58:33.760 --> 00:58:34.800
Can you speak on that a little bit?
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:40.320
Because I imagine that some of the people listening to this actually might be on their own fertility journeys.
00:58:40.639 --> 00:58:48.079
So hearing you say, you know, actually unexplained fertility, there actually is often or there is always a root cause.
00:58:48.559 --> 00:58:51.360
Yeah, and I think it depends on what lens you're looking at, fertility.
00:58:51.519 --> 00:58:56.960
Like, of course, an IVF doctor, they're not trained in fertility, they're trained in IVF, if that makes sense.
00:58:57.119 --> 00:58:57.280
Yeah.
00:58:57.440 --> 00:59:01.760
So they're not going to look at underlying infections that might be impacting the ovary.
00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:09.039
They're not going to be looking at uh any issues with methylation that are causing, you know, egg quality and sperm quality to decrease.
00:59:09.199 --> 00:59:18.239
They're not going to be looking at nutrient deficiencies and, you know, are you, you know, I just did a post actually on my Instagram about people that aren't actually conceiving on the right day.
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:20.559
So often people aren't even conceiving on the right day.
00:59:20.639 --> 00:59:22.880
I'm sure the IVF clinic would probably pick that up.
00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:24.480
So that wouldn't be a problem there.
00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:35.199
But really, there's so many other factors that influence fertility from, you know, I've seen so many uh sperm sort of analysis come my way.
00:59:35.440 --> 00:59:37.599
And they said, oh, the doctor said it's wonderful.
00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:41.840
And I look at it, I'm like, it's it's okay, but it's not optimal in any way, shape, or form.
00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:46.719
It's, you know, it looks like there's probably an infection impacting on a low level there.
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:51.679
And so I think it's just sort of investigating past what's conventional, really.
00:59:52.400 --> 01:00:03.840
Yeah, gut infections, vaginal, microbiome infections, semen analysis, like just looking a little bit deeper is rather than just, oh, well, you're ovulating, so it must all be okay.
01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:05.679
There's so much more to investigate.
01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:06.320
Yeah.
01:00:06.559 --> 01:00:07.599
Do you know what though?
01:00:07.679 --> 01:00:18.559
Like that that is one of the things I love about you and love about your work is that like it gives people so much hope and it's so empowering, you know, to actually know there's there's things that you can do.
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:27.199
Like there's even if like the outcome, whatever that is, whether it's fertility or hormone health or blood sugar regulation or whatever, you know, there's things you can do.
01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:28.960
It's not hopeless.
01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:31.280
There's more power than you realize.
01:00:31.599 --> 01:00:31.760
Yeah.
01:00:32.079 --> 01:00:34.079
To look in there's not complex cases.
01:00:34.159 --> 01:00:39.360
There are some seriously mega complex cases, but there's like always a route to explore.
01:00:39.519 --> 01:00:45.119
You know, like look, of course, sometimes we do get to a point where we kind of go, okay, look, for X, Y, and Z, it's maybe not going to happen.
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:48.639
Um, or maybe I'm not the right person, or we need to look at something else.
01:00:48.880 --> 01:00:55.440
You know, of course, I'm always completely honest with my clients, but I just, you know, most cases there's always there's always something we can investigate.
01:00:55.679 --> 01:00:57.440
Yeah, I love that.
01:00:57.599 --> 01:00:58.159
I love that.
01:00:58.239 --> 01:01:03.679
And I hope people listening to this can like really hear that and hear the hope, the hope in that and the empowerment.
01:01:03.840 --> 01:01:05.760
It's such a beautiful message.
01:01:06.079 --> 01:01:18.239
Um, and then lastly on the rapid fire questions, one supplement wellness product or trend that is often positioned as a bit of a miracle fix that you feel is maybe overhyped.
01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:19.440
Oh my gosh, there's so many.
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:20.639
Do you know what I would say?
01:01:21.440 --> 01:01:23.599
Is that anything from a food store?
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:25.280
Don't bother.
01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:28.320
Don't bother.
01:01:29.039 --> 01:01:39.840
Like I used to work in health stores and I would just cringe with people coming in self-diagnosing and buying supplements that are not at a therapeutic dosage that I knew was just gonna do nothing.
01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:46.960
Like, look, unless they're like severely deficient in something like B12 and they happen to buy a big complex of B12 in it and they start to feel better, great.
01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:53.199
But look, I would just I would say it's just they're not therapeutic enough.
01:01:53.360 --> 01:02:00.320
You know, the dosages I give are so specific for a specific amount of time, and I'm not saying I know that's a luxury to have access to that.
01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:05.039
You know, naturopaths aren't always cheap and these practitioner supplements aren't always cheap.
01:02:05.199 --> 01:02:16.719
But I would just say sort of like getting some help or direction even from the person who who works at the health store, if they are a naturopath, get some guidance because otherwise they are just a bit of a waste of money.
01:02:17.440 --> 01:02:23.039
Especially prenatal prenatal from a uh from a supermarket or health food store.
01:02:23.119 --> 01:02:24.719
It's just likely not going to be good enough.
01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:26.639
That is that is great advice.
01:02:26.800 --> 01:02:35.920
And I think you're you're speaking to the really personalized, tailored kind of nature of your work, which is another reason why it's so valuable.
01:02:36.320 --> 01:02:40.960
Yeah, and it's hard though, because I know it's not like a financially viable option for everybody.
01:02:41.039 --> 01:02:50.639
But even if you just, you know, some NaturePress do mini consults, we can just do a supplement review and you can just show them the supplements you're on, and they can go, yes, no, maybe so, and give you a few other alternatives.
01:02:50.719 --> 01:02:53.519
You know, there's some that do offer that kind of work as well.
01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:57.280
So there's always some way to sort of get a bit of a bit of support.
01:02:58.000 --> 01:02:58.800
Love that.
01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:00.880
Chess, thank you so much.
01:03:01.039 --> 01:03:03.679
It has been so lovely having this conversation with you.
01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:06.960
I'm so grateful, and we will have to do this again soon.
01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:08.239
Yes, let's do it.
01:03:08.320 --> 01:03:09.119
I love it.
01:03:09.440 --> 01:03:12.719
You've been listening to the Holistic Psychology podcast.
01:03:12.880 --> 01:03:17.519
If you enjoyed this conversation, subscribe and share it with somebody who might need it today.
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:21.519
Until next time, peers to true wellness from the inside out.