Albert Grandy III: What's good everyone? My name is Albert Grand III and welcome back to the thread. I'm here with a very special guest today. We're talking all about food systems, how can we give that back to the community and also any food tips from that, you know, the chef we have on board can give out. So without further ado, I'm gonna introduce Robert Oliver to the stage.
Robert Oliver: Kiara Albert, thanks for having me. Robert Oliver here. I am at the moment in Artel Roy, New Zealand. although l most of the time I'm in the Pacific Islands. My project's based in the Pacific Islands. So, probably the the the project that's most relevant to this conversation is a project called Pacific Island Food Revolution that I founded about seven years ago. And it really first of all, d as background, I I'm a New Zealander, but I grew up in Fiji and Samoa. So I've got deep Those countries, right? If you grow up there, go to school there, you never actually leave. You you you know, these are foundational friendships, relationships, a lot of my schoolmates, people know my family,
Albert Grandy III: Well,
Robert Oliver: it's like very cohesive societies. So you don't get forgotten when you move on. So I so I've got I've got a big presence in the Pacific Islands and have had all of my life. But around two thousand 15. I I I'd worked in the food space. I'm a chef. I'd I'd been a I I you know I I've had a fairly had a fairly typical chef career for many years, mainly living in New York, actually. After after living in the Pacific, I moved to New York and I was executive chef of a big catering company in York City. And I really learned about I was kind of there at the beginning of the Local War movement, the farm to table movement. So I worked with some of the big players in that space. I worked with Bill Nyman from Nyman Ranch, Mary Cleaver from the Cleaver Company. And these were the forerunners of the Local War movement, which was about localizing food systems, you know, buying next door, buying local, and all the pluses that go with that. So I really was kind of immersed in that. in that system thinking thanks to them. And then I worked in the Caribbean for a while. I was offered consultancies putting restaurants into resort groups. I'd done many, many restaurants for a big restaurant group called the China Grill Group, which is based in New York and is all over the world. And so they found me through that. And when I was in the Caribbean, I found that, and this was in Barbados, St. Lucia primarily, that a lot of the food for the hotels for the tourism industry, which is the biggest industry there, the biggest GDB player there, was being imported. And it was pretty clear to me that because a lot of the menus were like Western focused or not West Indian in origin, that That if if there was more of a presence of local food culture on the menus in the hotels, that would require local agriculture. Because you could see the opportunity. There's all these great farmers there, and but so much of the money leaves the countries in food imports. So there was joining the two together. And I I recognize that the menu was the glue. The menu ends up in a tourism-led economy. The menu ends up being the business plan of the nation. And so I did that for some time and I was like reflecting on the fact that I, you know, here I am from Fiji in the South Pacific, and we have exactly the same situation. And maybe I should go home and be applying this kind of methodology that I was developing in the Caribbean in my own country. But I knew that first of all, to get a foothold into that space. To get traction. I needed people to see their food culture as viable and it and as valid and as a cuisine, not just food that grandma makes or or or more that the food that grandma makes is the basis of a cuisine of of something very special and unique to the country. And then to get that cuisine mobilized the through the tourism industry. That was that was how I began my work. And I wrote to do that, to get that recognition going, I wrote a a cookbook. I mean it sounds like I just wrote a cookbook, but I spent ages trying to get a publishing deal and did all the you know, I think I had like 19 rejections from different publishers, people like, who cares about the South Pacific? And then, you know, it's it's to get published is not easy, right? Anyway, we got a publisher. We got Random Penguin Random House. And this is back in 2010. And so the idea was always get get the cuisine glamorized through the cookbook mechanism. Like cookbooks, beautiful, beautifully photographed, they look authoritative, and that kind of packages up the cuisine and and glamorizes it. And so that was my thinking behind that that. First of the three books that I've written. And that came out in 2010. And it was in Fiji, Samu, Vanuatu, Tahiti, the Kingdom of Tonga, and the Cook Islands covering dishes. And it was just me networking through friends and people I knew and getting these beautiful recipes. And it became really clear really quickly that it's not just a recipe. It the the story of the food is the story of the people. And so it was very was a lot of heart and everything and people got very invested in the in the book itself. And so then fast forward to early 2011 and we find that the this book is has been shortlisted for the Gourmand Award, which is like the Oscars of cookbooks. And we
Albert Grandy III: Okay.
Robert Oliver: we we were up against the New York Times and You know, everyone's heard of the the New York Times, right? And then and then the book from from Noma, which was the at that time considered v many times voted the best restaurant in the world. And we were like we went to the awards in Paris feeling like little chickens in this space with these big, big, famous, you know, foodies, established brands, established regions, established names. So I kind of went to the awards as a bit of a just not really thinking very seriously about the fact that we might have a chance to win this award, but we did win. And it was just incredible. I felt like our cuisine was taking i its seat at the table along with the great cuisines of the world. And what happened as a result of that Was everyone in the Pacific was like thrilled to have their food story acknowledged on this global stage? But all the people who had contributed to the book, it just created this incredible energy and enthusiasm for the the food that we grew up on, fundamentally. And so I was you know, I'd always planned to go back living in the United States and but I was like, man, this energy is magic. I mean, you you you can't h how many times in your life can you create that? And so I opted to stay in the Pacific Islands. I also wanted to spend time with my family because I'd been living away for so long. So that was The beginning of my food journey back in the Pacific, I worked with some great people putting the book together and and Dr. Tracy Berner, who's like a food academic, and then a great photographer from Fiji, Shiri Rahm, and all the people who contributed who were who were just overwhelmed with this, you know, insanely big global award that we got. even now, all these years later, I still feel like really emotional when I try to talk about it because I go back to that to that moment when our name was called and it felt so big. But I had no idea
Albert Grandy III: Mm-hmm.
Robert Oliver: what big even meant then. You know, it played out over years. And so so that book was made into a television series. And of course, then you start spreading the word even bigger about how great the food is. And 'cause the food is great, but getting that message out there was just suddenly amplified yet again. And around 2015 I I became I'd always so Albert just to explain my my motivations were like let's get the cuisine in tourism and lift the region economically out of aid dependence, out of all
Albert Grandy III: Okay.
Robert Oliver: that. Because, you know, this food imports at 80% for tourism, if you bring it down to 30%, you can imagine the The prosperity that flows into the farming communities and the in the islands is huge. But I began to learn about non-communicable diseases in about 2015. And that's diabetes, heart disease, diseases due to what you eat. And and I also realized, you know, and this is not the Pacific, this is glob globally, that'd been a shift away from eating. Cultural food, cuisine, local food, to eating processed food. And the NCD numbers were reflecting that. And and Fiji, for example, had gone from having almost no diabetes when I was a kid to having 84% of the country with some form of diabetes. I mean, just staggering numbers. And and so it was obvious if we if we returned the region to its own natural food system that we'd go a long way towards towards addressing NCDs as well. So am I going I'm rambling here, Albert. Are you are you okay with that? Okay.
Albert Grandy III: Yeah. Keep going. No, this I'm listening and like it's this is this is a this is a great this is a great
Robert Oliver: Okay. Well then then I was like,
Albert Grandy III: Yeah.
Robert Oliver: well, we've got the book and we've done this great TV series previously and th the the word was out and that you know this and the the lift was already happening around around what is local food. And by the way, the reason that people didn't see their food was cuisine or this great, great treasure of cultural treasure was because there weren't any cookbooks saying that. And then also There's kind of a hangover from from colonization where col colonization is fundamentally one re one group of people coming in saying our way is better than your way. And so that lingers, right? That stays in the culture for years and years and years. And then on top of that, globalization, which has got which is around in the Pacific, the g globalization in the food space has appeared as processed food being heavily marketed. And marketing coolness and you know aspirational lifestyles, which are just not true because you end up with diabetes. So that it's it's
Albert Grandy III: Right.
Robert Oliver: all a it's all a big f fraudulent supposition, but nonetheless it is there and it's it's been was very effective. So I I around this time I was like, well, it's not just a an economic thing, it's a it's a whole of life thing to restore this f you know, revive or revitalize or create excitement around this beautiful food system and dishes that I grew up on and that I, you know, as a chef in New York for all those years, I knew I could see the treasure. I could see it on the plate. And I wanted people to feel the same enthusiasm that I felt. And so How do you do that? And around that time I I because of my book award, I suddenly had a big profile and I began to get offered things. And one thing that I got offered was to be a judge on a on
Albert Grandy III: Exactly.
Robert Oliver: a big reality cooking show, a global show called My Kitchen Rules. And Albert, to be honest, when I was first offered the role, I th I don't I'd never liked reality TV. I just thought it was trashy. And I actually said I said to people, I don't do trashy TV. And then I I decided to take it because I knew I realized I'd learn a lot through doing it. And also
Albert Grandy III: Yeah.
Robert Oliver: everyone else on the show were friends of mine, so I was like, well, this is gonna be a great experience. And I thought
Albert Grandy III: Okay.
Robert Oliver: also bringing my persona to a new level would lift the community that I was already working with. So I did it, and then I was like, wow, everyone's watching this. Everyone's
Albert Grandy III: it's not too bad.
Robert Oliver: cooking. Everyone's talking about food. This is this is an incredible mechanism. It's an incredible system for activating traditional cuisines, re- you know, re re-energizing and maybe modernizing in the process what what has been seen as traditional food. And so that's how I started forming Pacific Island Food Revolution, which you know about Albert, because that's how you found me. And that was so we designed a big reality cooking show as the kind of anchor product. and that's what Pacific Island Food Revolution is. And that's easily found online, by the way. On we've got a big YouTube channel and we did three series of the show, we're up to three series. And it's in it's filmed in Fiji Sam or Vanuatu Tonga and episodes in Papua New Guinea. And it's basically a reality cooking show, but it's like the episodes are built around what are what do young kids need to eat? What about that old dish that what about all those greens that we used to have all in all those different ways that we only don't only see a couple of ways now? And what about the people who are already doing amazing work on the ground, like women's organic organic farming groups? What about profiling them in the show and learning from them? I decided that reality TV would be a way to revive and and create this put this great energy behind What is local food and and kind of put the spotlight on those beautiful old dishes that we all grew up on that that kept everybody well. And the value of TV is that a lot also with cookbooks is it is that it glamorizes. You know, you can see a dish a hundred times, then you see it on TV, on a big screen, a big international show. It's like, wow, that really is something. So that was the effect that I wanted to create. And not just that the food was that the people behind the food were you know were making this magic and that and that it w it was a whole kind of of society thing. so we designed episodes specifically addressing some of the issues we knew we had to address like eating more greens, etc. but it there was also just about really looking at the beauty of the culture and and getting You know, part of the d the magic of reality T V is you have contestants and they bring all their knowledge with them. So part of the casting of contestants is making sure that you get people who e people identify with. So you have young women, you have older woman, you have men who often not c associated with being in the kitchen. We always made sure we had different gender types in there as well because in food it's a you know, it's a it's an even society in food. And We're just a cooking show, so we can often bring up issues that may be a bit controversial out of a cooking show arena, but they're safe in the cooking in the cooking space. So yeah, we did three seasons of the show. They're all on YouTube now. And then we started to be measured because we were really lucky, w the the pr as I designed the project, this is back in two thousand seventeen, we were encouraged by some people in the Australian government to apply to to enter into this competition called launch food, which was a global food innovation hub coming out of San Francisco at the time. And we won that. So that that put us in a really good position to speak to governments. And the Australian government right away said we want innovation. everyone's been trying for years through nutritionism. you know, and what about the food space and what about entertainment? Let's give it a shot. Then the New Zealand government came on board and said, Yep, okay, if the Australian government's gonna commit, we will too. So we got we were likely to be funded for three years to to get three seasons of the show 'cause it they're expensive to make. And you don't make a lot of money out of TV. It's like the networks don't pay much and so the returns are low, but the investment is in health and well being rather than entertainment. It's just entertainment's just a mechanism. So t to so that the Australia New Zealand taxpayers didn't say, Why are we funding a reality TV cooking show? They the both governments put in d some serious research into making sure it was working. And we we even we were stunned by how effective this model was, model for transforming food s food systems through entertainment was. We found that For for example, in the in the Kingdom of Tonga, we found that 86% of people were watching the show. And that's because they related to it. They they saw people like them in it. And they saw their food in it. Also, we had the Princess of Tonga was my co-host for the Tongan episode. So they related to the fact that their country was being represented by a royal, and that was a big deal. and then we found overall with and all the countries had very high viewership. And then overall
Albert Grandy III: Okay.
Robert Oliver: We found that forty-two percent of people who watch the show were saying they had made small changes to the way they eat. So, in other words, we'd built a platform upon which to to make really transformative change. and so that's kind of where we're at, Albert. With the the project is now morphing into other kind of revolution spaces. I mean, I th I feel that reality TV has done its bit and now I can go into more direct educational Type stuff and new communities coming in. We've got a big project in the Solomon Islands coming up that we're starting soon. They want total food sovereignty, like a 10-year plan. They want to see their food and education in in hospitals and schools. They want it in their tourism industry. They want it in their lives fully. And so, what does that
Albert Grandy III: Okay.
Robert Oliver: mean? That's a that's a strategy, that's a plan that we're drawing up at the moment. And We've got other bespoke
Albert Grandy III: But
Robert Oliver: projects coming up. there's a project in the Fiji and Samoa. We're working with women farmers. Often women farmers do not have access to the ministerial type. benefits that male farmers have. It's often considered to be a farming a a male dominated industry. So we've got a project with women farmers from Fiji and Samoa upskilling them in food entrepreneurship. And we and while we do that we make a documentary about that because then other countries see that and they're like, we want that too and that's how the things spread. We've definitely used entertainment intentionally to to excite people and and I you know if honestly it's worked that the crazy idea what I thought was trashy, trashy TV is is actually a really great model for for li creating a movement, lifting people up and and not asking people to change but but l allowing them to be the change.
Albert Grandy III: Yeah, that makes sense because it comes from telling a story, right? And like everything about entertainment is how can you tell that story, what no matter what it is. In this case it's food, but in that entertainment space, how can you get someone again not to change their ways, but hopefully be inspired to just change a little thing, you know, have those small measurable outcomes to where they can see themselves be the story, be that change and hopefully put others onto that story as well. So I think that's a great
Robert Oliver: Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: approach to do it.
Robert Oliver: I I think also the the value and I will I've always done this in my work without realizing I was doing it, is I'm not telling the story. I'm creating the platform for the story to be told. So people in the countries tell the story. They tell the story and that's that's powerful. That's that means it's a community, not not a famous person or led by one identity. It's it's actually It's facil my role is to facilitate that storytelling.
Albert Grandy III: And I I do think that's the best approach too, because you're not forcing that story to happen again. You're letting the story come into itself. And you have like like you said, you have the Tongan royalty coming onto the show as a co host. You're for that specific population. So when you have that, they're able to create their own scripts, create their own, you know, whatever it is to get that story going along, but it's still true to the people. And I I think that's the best approach.
Robert Oliver: I mean the other thing that I've really liked about it by the way is that diabetes and heart disease and all those things are depressing. They're a downer and people don't want to talk about them and everyone's sick of being told what to do. Like the nutrition approach is the nutrition information is brilliant, the knowledge is brilliant, but h how do you activate it? And through the food space it's it's you can through these kind of mechanisms. It becomes from being a really bad, frightening story to being a really to being a celebration of of culture. And that's it's a complete flip. So that's something I've liked about it as well. I mean I've loved doing it because I see people come alive when I'm filming with them and they're like they realize that their culture is their cure and that's profound. That's really pr that's a profound thing for people to feel. And then I know the viewers feeling it as well. So it spreads.
Albert Grandy III: So you so you would say like that that would be one of the best ways to pass a food system down is through that positivity, through that growth minded, you know, vision so people can be inspired instead of talking about the depression of whatever, in this case, you non clinical diseases in that aspect. Is that what you're saying? So it be passed down through positivity and through growth.
Robert Oliver: I think everyone likes a good story. Everyone wants to buy into a good story, not a bad story.
Albert Grandy III: Sorry. Sorry.
Robert Oliver: And so that that's the that's the power of it. And there it is a good story. There is a good story to tell. It's not like we have to make it up. It's for real. You know? And I I I see The model that we've developed as as being applicable to other geographies and other cultures. You know, we we've done the hard learning, and now we have a we have a kind of a somewhat of a system that we can now take elsewhere. And we're talking to people in the Philippines at the moment about it, people in Hawaii about it, who are seeing, because this thing is so visible and it's so much fun. You know, people people want to plug in and they wanna they wanna see what they can do with with their own situations around it. I was you know, I've just because I've been running it, I I've just every day I d often don't know what I'm doing, you know, like I'm kinda figuring it out on the fly the whole time. And it was all instinct, you know, and instinct and and and long-term relationships is what made this work from my perspective. And but now that we we've been studied and also last year I was lucky enough to get a Rockefeller Foundation Bellagio Center residency. And so that made that
Albert Grandy III: Yeah, sorry.
Robert Oliver: allowed me to step away from the day to day and doing it and look at it and then write up write it up as a as a kind of almost like a toolkit that that that we can take to other places.
Albert Grandy III: Could you could you actually describe what that fellowship is and what it does for your platform?
Robert Oliver: yeah, sure. So Rockefeller Foundation, as you know, is one of the biggest and probably the oldest meaningful philanthropic organizations in the world. It's the American obviously. And they have a they have a great interest in food system food systems. In fact many of the big organizations do now. And they have a food initiative which is headed by a a visionary guy called Roy Steiner who I met. And I was encouraged to they have a part of the Rockefeller Foundation value is that they have a a place called the Bellagio Center, which is in Bellagio in Italy, and it's where you can apply to go there for a month. and you are positioned with other people who with overlapping kind of capacities and interests. and you work on your thing for a month. So I worked on writing this revolution thing up into something you could actually read and and take somewhere. but it it was a an amazing experience. We we you know, the cohort that I was with it's a really collaborative spirit. It's not it's not competitive. So you feed a lot from your your cohort's input and you feed into theirs. And we had you know incredible cohorts. So I had a Nobel Prize winner and you know it was that level and and it's just an an amazing experience. And it allows you to reflect and and move to the next level. That's what it's done for me for sure. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: Okay, so
Robert Oliver: All the links online to Rockefeller Foundation, Bellagio Centre Residency, How to Apply and all that kind of stuff.
Albert Grandy III: So did you need like a certain track record? Could anyone go through and apply for that?
Robert Oliver: yeah, you need to it's it's a tough application process. I I I think that I think they get thousands of applicants. I'm not surprised when you see the place it's spectacularly beautiful and also then you're with these incredible people. So all I I I most I mean I've applied for a few residencies and this is the only one I've ever gotten. So residencies
Albert Grandy III: So
Robert Oliver: are hard to get anyway, but they're of great value because you get to be with your topic in a way that you're not on survival mode. You're actually sitting there looking at it creatively and strategically. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: Okay. I wanna I wanna I wanna make a little I wanna make a little balance. So when you're when you're creating this food revolution and you as you continue to build it, how are you applying it to tackle those non-communicable diseases? I know you touched on it a little bit, but I w I would like to like know a little bit more on how you're tackling those issues.
Robert Oliver: Well, the first bit that we were doing was just getting the food story out there. And that's what the reality
Albert Grandy III: Mm-hmm.
Robert Oliver: T V did super well. So maybe you don't need to do more than that, by the way. Maybe that's because then people will take it on t the momentum will be picked up and people will take it into their lives themselves. That that is and I see that happening in the Pacific. I see a lot of local local cuisine restaurants that weren't there a while ago. There's a lot of social media sites and and Facebook groups that weren't there. And I'm not saying that's because of us, but we were we were definitely big in that ecosystem to begin. And I think everyone t coming together and this is what I mean by community building, everyone coming into the space at the same time. I mean COVID was actually good for us because people watched our show a lot. And and then and then there was just this a awareness of the local food proposition. It'd be it had been eating well had been positioned through nutritionism rather than culture. So that's the shift that I saw happen. And w we were I feel that we were one of the players who were who were part of making that happen.
Albert Grandy III: Okay. So so it was more on a momentum side. So hopefully that the inspiration of watching the show can help build the momentum with the individuals to just take those, you know, little action steps every single day or every week or every month to just keep building those healthy habits.
Robert Oliver: Yeah, and also make I mean the idea of the show I wanted to make something people wanted to be a part of. And that was what the the big level media does. So it's not just that I'm eating something because I'm because it's healthy. I'm eating something because it's me. I'm eating something because it's cool. I'm eating something because it's it it's beautiful and not because I have to. So that's an important switch. And that's what I mean by going from the nutrition framing to the cultural framing. It's very different. and by the way, the the nutrition framing is super important, but it's good to activate it through the culture. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: No, that makes sense. I know like a lot of time in like my own field and like when you know, when I'm trying to break down difficult topics or concepts to just to people, it's how can you frame it in a way it's saying it's really the same thing as storytelling, but how can you frame it in a way to make people either understand or not just understand but also be a part of that story so they can actually see themselves and visualize what it's doing or how it works. Mm-hmm.
Robert Oliver: Yeah. That's right. And to feel it. It doesn't just go in your head, it goes in your heart. I mean, people get really I like real the reality thing because because the contestants are so so great. And you just you just you know w anyone who watches any reality, you end up really identifying with them and you really you know, you really want people to do well and so that's you wanting yourself to do well actually. So that's the that's that that's a profound internal switch that's g that's b been turned on. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: So were there any so like what were there any crazy dishes that you saw on the reality show? Like in terms of like I know you saw I know like you're you're a certified chef, so like was there anything that you saw that that that just blew your mind?
Robert Oliver: Every single episode. I was just blown up by the creativity, by the passion people had, and by the knowledge that they had that they hadn't necessarily activated in their day-to-day lives, but now they were like, wait a second, we should we should have been doing this the whole time. And so there was just such such beautiful dishes. And you know It's hard to describe because it's like the beautiful not just on TV but they're beautiful unto themselves. So when you see them on TV as well, it just blows it up. The magnifying bit is just huge. but individual dishes, man. I I could be talking for quite a while about that. there were so many that I ended up making a new cookbook just based on the show. Yeah. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: okay. No, but like that's I think that's the power of food right there. It's like it's so many different like I mean you can make a new creation every single day, every single time you make a dish. And like that's the beauty of it too. It's like really 'cause you can really feel I mean, food is is life, food is health. So when you have that feeling, that passion in each dish, like
Robert Oliver: Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: I mean, you really can't even put it into words because that's just how much it it's really great. Like I understand that.
Robert Oliver: Yeah. Yeah. I mean why does everyone why is food T V the biggest the biggest sector on in in entertainment? Why you know, why is the food conversation so so critical? It's because it's it it touches something inside us. I mean, w you know, it's not just that we are what we eat, it's also our relationship with nature gets touched upon. Our relationship with with our ancestors gets touched upon. It's it's it's not just a plate of food. It's the beginning of a of a set of it's like a matrix of connections to community and culture and nature and farming and and ancestral dignity. so it it it's it's pretty powerful once you start playing in that space. And it's not just about health and it's not just about economy. It's just about it's really about who you are and and you know and that and that's a beautiful thing.
Albert Grandy III: So how do we get back to that? How do we get back to nature?
Robert Oliver: Well, I've used reality TV. So yeah, I mean I I really appreciate all the people who do the work in the in the in the n natural programming and and documentary space because I know that they're fundamentally trying to w we we will protect what we love. That's what we that's what we will do as as human beings. And so when you look at the David Attenborough's and the the great series around nature, they're they're reconnecting us to nature and that that's super valuable. But that's really the key to it all, isn't it? I mean, you know, the the the Pacific Islands are pa are paradise. I mean, they are the Garden of Eden. That it's where else do you get organics everywhere and the oceans as they are, this beautiful cuisine? People who live in in accordance largely with the rules of nature. So there's a you know, there's little islands in the Pacific, there's a lot for people to learn about almost this you know, about what a harmonious life actually means. Harmony with the natural world and understanding the spiritual majesty of nature and feeling that. and it's not just a plate of food. It goes way beyond that. So that's the bit that I've loved. Is feeling feeling it myself as I do the as I do the project. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: Have you seen those traditions start to fade as time goes on, as other younger generation is now coming into their own sets of being? Have you seen those traditions start to fade away or is it still there and they still want to learn the Pacific Islands?
Robert Oliver: You know, part of the issue was was that the the glamour of processed food and the marketing of processed food had been so effective that dishes were disappearing and traditions were disappearing, but they've never gone very far. And there's still the generation of grandmothers and And people who love food who who know them. So it's it's it they're the v they're the ones of great value in this space. and so it's not and it's also not just about resurrecting what was. It's like, well, we used to do that, let's do that, but also let's do this, because we've got We've got all these great greens, we've got these coconuts, we've got these seaweeds, we've got these we can do all these other things with it too. And that's what but you know, within the confines of the culture itself. But the the ingredients are are are a part of the culture. So, you know, it one of the one of the things that I enjoyed about the show was we had we had chefs come in who Often they came in wanting to be famous or, you know, but they just got into it and they just bought this incr incredible creativity. And when you look at the cuisine of France or Thailand, those great nations where we look at the cuisine and and it's viewed as so successful, it's so central to the identity of the nation. And it and c I mean, Thailand, food runs the whole economy of the country, not just not just the identity. It's it's the h the whole country is identified with its food. They these nations have kept inventing. So they they did they weren't food colonized. They've kept their own culture front and center and they've there's all these versions of things that keep coming up and people get better and better at it. And that was part of the dynamic that that I wanted Pacific Iron Food Revolution to bring into the into the Pacific as well is this is this energetic creativity that sits within young people everywhere. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: So that energetic creativity. And
Robert Oliver: Mm.
Albert Grandy III: it's something that like that that fra that term to me is something that, you know, it just inspires. It just helps create a passion within people to keep moving forward, just keep building upon what they've learned. And like you said, not only resurrecting what was what was, but now adapting and bringing in what's here currently and either mixing it together, creating something new on their own, or just you know, making a masterpiece. And I think like that's just how the world works.
Robert Oliver: Yeah. Yeah. It's the dynamic, isn't it? I mean I see it happen other things. I mean, I look at I look to Jessica Harris, who is the great African American food writer, and what her books have done, and then it went on to be the Netflix series High on the Hog. These people who hold this knowledge and and are smart enough to collect it and frame it in such a beautiful way, they th th that's legacy. That's incredible legacy. And her her work in the U I mean, I I know her quite well and when I was writing my first book, I I looked up to her, I looked up to her work as someone who'd done something that I wanted to do, albeit I wanted to do it somewhere else. And of course differently, 'cause, you know, I I went into the reality TV space with some urgency around the N C Ds. So but but these people there are people all over the world who are who are doing incredible work in the space. I mean she's she's one that I that I consider to be kind of iconic and and one for many many people to aspire to. Yeah. You've seen Eye on the Hog, right? Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: Yeah, I I have, I have. It's actually it's actually it's pretty funny too because one of my college courses it was like this intro to anthropology class and like one of like one of the projects we had to do was watch Hide and the Hog the entire series on Netflix and then like create our own like our own food table like like based on our own family and our own culture. So it was actually was actually a great great connection. So
Robert Oliver: Great. Well she's an amazing person. and I remember when I first met her I was like dumbstruck 'cause I was such a huge fan of hers. And now we're close friends, you know? People people recognize in each other common passion and and these relationships flourish. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: That's the key. Like, you know, like like great minds think you like and when you're all like minded on a specific topic that you're all passionate about, that's just how the community grows.
Robert Oliver: And I think the common thing is it is people who care, right? People who who are prepared to do their work in a way that impacts communities that they care about. And I I I see that in you, and that's why you're in this path, right? 'Cause you care. So that's you'll find other people around you who care as well and that's to me that's you know what the basis of a great movement is.
Albert Grandy III: thank you. And this is actually something that I wanted to touch on too with you is that extraction piece and like, you know, who benefits from that documentation of food knowledge, who benefits from the community being documented? Are there alternatives to build that way? Like your way was through that reality T V, but you also gave back to the community by letting them tell the story. So like who really benefits from that documentation, whether that's from the big corporations, like you know, Natural Geographic or the History Channel, the Food Channel, or is it from the small time creators, like who really benefits from that documentation?
Robert Oliver: to me it's well the the the benefits that I was looking for were the health benefits. you know, part partly. So obviously the community's the ones who are benefiting from that. but knowledge is is to be managed correctly and and I've made a point of with my books and with my TV is is the whoever does the recipe or tells the story, they they own that. That's theirs. And even in my books I've got a disclaimer saying this is their intellectual property and they've given me permission to publish. Because it n knowledge should not be taken. And and it often research is comes in to countries like we have Pacific people coming to research and then the knowledge from the research doesn't get c returned back to the community. And it's like that's just unfair. It's like a perpetuation of a colonial mechanism to me in many ways. So I've been really careful around that. And it's not something that I was I had to think about because it's obvious that if someone gives you a recipe it's theirs. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: No, because I agree, 'cause like, you know, you like you see that in many examples, not only just in food, but in anything that it comes, you know, it comes from someone is their their idea, their recipe, their creation, their thinking, and it can just be extracted in a way just to be monetized or be televised in a way for entertainment purposes as well. So it's like the idea
Robert Oliver: Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: of giving back to the community that really created it first or just had that knowledge
Robert Oliver: Yeah, absolutely.
Albert Grandy III: that wanted to share.
Robert Oliver: Yeah, yeah. Well, f and from a financial perspective, just so you know, like you don't make a lot of money out of books. You don't make a lot of money out of television unless you're really in the big league of both. And people like me are not not there. So I'm always struggling to put the funds together to keep my project going. And we're luckily at the moment we've got the the farming project I mentioned with the woman farmers from Osamor and Fiji. We've got the Asia Foundation have bought in a fund for that and we're partnering with them on on that. So you know, the next stage of what I do will be really around partnerships and using the media as the activator of of those joint ambitions of the partnerships. Yeah, we're looking at
Albert Grandy III: Okay. Yeah we
Robert Oliver: like a blue food revolution. I'm w I'm wanting to do something with the Pacific's rainbow communities because they've often been left out of the food narrative. So we put a Pacific
Albert Grandy III: Mm-hmm.
Robert Oliver: Rainbow Food Revolution together. There's a large what we call Fafafafine or Leyti demographic in the Pacific, which are trans cultural trans people. Like it's not like trans is the wrong word because it's a Western word, but it's people who identify d different gender wise and they have played a vital role in society traditionally and we're looking to how to you know how to work with the those communities across across the Pacific now as well. Because like I said, the beautiful thing about food is everyone's welcome at the table.
Albert Grandy III: Exactly. And you know, they're great chefs too. The food the food's great, so
Robert Oliver: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Albert Grandy III: Like I had I had an idea. Like I was just thinking, talking to my friend a couple of months ago and I was just thinking about apartment complexes. You know, they have different venues or spaces or c or cacibos where, you know, it's open spaces. I feel what if each apartment had their own garden spaces? You know, if it's outdoor, indoor, but something that's like community built so everyone in that apartment can go in, you know, tend to like they have to maintain the garden off but tender to it, be able to use the garden, replenish it. But that's a way to where that apartment complex can be self sufficient or also people around the surrounding that apartment complex can have a source of like healthy food. And I just
Robert Oliver: Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: wanted to see like what what would like what you thought about there, how that could work in those spaces. Like in like a New York City
Robert Oliver: It's it
Albert Grandy III: or like in a big city.
Robert Oliver: you need to talk to my friend Henry Obispo about this. Cause that's what he does really well. I think I've sent you some links about him, right? So he's he's he's
Albert Grandy III: Mm. Yeah.
Robert Oliver: the guy for that. Cause where where I'm from, you know, people live in the rural areas, people can garden if they want. They have access to great food in the markets. So there's not the same impetus for that. And also I I don't like gardening myself, so I'm I'm like not a good person to to be preaching that
Albert Grandy III: Mm.
Robert Oliver: at all. Most things I plant don't last long. Yeah. So yeah.
Albert Grandy III: Okay. No.
Robert Oliver: Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: But like I do feel like just having some sort of like your own way just to have access to those healthy foods, whether you're able to garden if you if you're not good at gardening, if you know someone that has that access or that distribution through you know, f either farmer markets or whatever, but finding a way to be able to have access to that because I know that is another big issue as well. Because you know, having the knowledge
Robert Oliver: Yeah, absolutely.
Albert Grandy III: and knowing about it, knowing how healthy it is to be to be a part of that community. is one thing but also having that access and distribution to that is another thing as well.
Robert Oliver: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah,
Albert Grandy III: Yeah.
Robert Oliver: yeah. No, th those models are out there. They're just not something I know at all. Yeah. I've I've remained firmly in the cuisine cooking part of that. I'm in the demand bit, not the supply. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: All right, is there any is there any any any tips or any any dish that you wanna show off or you can tell right now that that just comes to mind? Like the first issue comes to mind. Something that you know, something that's unique to you.
Robert Oliver: Well,
Albert Grandy III: Yeah.
Robert Oliver: in f in the Pacific we have a lot of seaweeds. We eat lot of seaweeds and also things like fermented coconut.
Albert Grandy III: Okay.
Robert Oliver: I mean everything's got coconut. So I would suggest people look on our website, the Pacific Island Food Revolution.
Albert Grandy III: That sounds good. Again, thank you for your time. Hope everyone enjoyed this episode and stay tuned.
Robert Oliver: Kiara Albert, thanks for having me. Robert Oliver here. I am at the moment in Artel Roy, New Zealand. although l most of the time I'm in the Pacific Islands. My project's based in the Pacific Islands. So, probably the the the project that's most relevant to this conversation is a project called Pacific Island Food Revolution that I founded about seven years ago. And it really first of all, d as background, I I'm a New Zealander, but I grew up in Fiji and Samoa. So I've got deep Those countries, right? If you grow up there, go to school there, you never actually leave. You you you know, these are foundational friendships, relationships, a lot of my schoolmates, people know my family,
Albert Grandy III: Well,
Robert Oliver: it's like very cohesive societies. So you don't get forgotten when you move on. So I so I've got I've got a big presence in the Pacific Islands and have had all of my life. But around two thousand 15. I I I'd worked in the food space. I'm a chef. I'd I'd been a I I you know I I've had a fairly had a fairly typical chef career for many years, mainly living in New York, actually. After after living in the Pacific, I moved to New York and I was executive chef of a big catering company in York City. And I really learned about I was kind of there at the beginning of the Local War movement, the farm to table movement. So I worked with some of the big players in that space. I worked with Bill Nyman from Nyman Ranch, Mary Cleaver from the Cleaver Company. And these were the forerunners of the Local War movement, which was about localizing food systems, you know, buying next door, buying local, and all the pluses that go with that. So I really was kind of immersed in that. in that system thinking thanks to them. And then I worked in the Caribbean for a while. I was offered consultancies putting restaurants into resort groups. I'd done many, many restaurants for a big restaurant group called the China Grill Group, which is based in New York and is all over the world. And so they found me through that. And when I was in the Caribbean, I found that, and this was in Barbados, St. Lucia primarily, that a lot of the food for the hotels for the tourism industry, which is the biggest industry there, the biggest GDB player there, was being imported. And it was pretty clear to me that because a lot of the menus were like Western focused or not West Indian in origin, that That if if there was more of a presence of local food culture on the menus in the hotels, that would require local agriculture. Because you could see the opportunity. There's all these great farmers there, and but so much of the money leaves the countries in food imports. So there was joining the two together. And I I recognize that the menu was the glue. The menu ends up in a tourism-led economy. The menu ends up being the business plan of the nation. And so I did that for some time and I was like reflecting on the fact that I, you know, here I am from Fiji in the South Pacific, and we have exactly the same situation. And maybe I should go home and be applying this kind of methodology that I was developing in the Caribbean in my own country. But I knew that first of all, to get a foothold into that space. To get traction. I needed people to see their food culture as viable and it and as valid and as a cuisine, not just food that grandma makes or or or more that the food that grandma makes is the basis of a cuisine of of something very special and unique to the country. And then to get that cuisine mobilized the through the tourism industry. That was that was how I began my work. And I wrote to do that, to get that recognition going, I wrote a a cookbook. I mean it sounds like I just wrote a cookbook, but I spent ages trying to get a publishing deal and did all the you know, I think I had like 19 rejections from different publishers, people like, who cares about the South Pacific? And then, you know, it's it's to get published is not easy, right? Anyway, we got a publisher. We got Random Penguin Random House. And this is back in 2010. And so the idea was always get get the cuisine glamorized through the cookbook mechanism. Like cookbooks, beautiful, beautifully photographed, they look authoritative, and that kind of packages up the cuisine and and glamorizes it. And so that was my thinking behind that that. First of the three books that I've written. And that came out in 2010. And it was in Fiji, Samu, Vanuatu, Tahiti, the Kingdom of Tonga, and the Cook Islands covering dishes. And it was just me networking through friends and people I knew and getting these beautiful recipes. And it became really clear really quickly that it's not just a recipe. It the the story of the food is the story of the people. And so it was very was a lot of heart and everything and people got very invested in the in the book itself. And so then fast forward to early 2011 and we find that the this book is has been shortlisted for the Gourmand Award, which is like the Oscars of cookbooks. And we
Albert Grandy III: Okay.
Robert Oliver: we we were up against the New York Times and You know, everyone's heard of the the New York Times, right? And then and then the book from from Noma, which was the at that time considered v many times voted the best restaurant in the world. And we were like we went to the awards in Paris feeling like little chickens in this space with these big, big, famous, you know, foodies, established brands, established regions, established names. So I kind of went to the awards as a bit of a just not really thinking very seriously about the fact that we might have a chance to win this award, but we did win. And it was just incredible. I felt like our cuisine was taking i its seat at the table along with the great cuisines of the world. And what happened as a result of that Was everyone in the Pacific was like thrilled to have their food story acknowledged on this global stage? But all the people who had contributed to the book, it just created this incredible energy and enthusiasm for the the food that we grew up on, fundamentally. And so I was you know, I'd always planned to go back living in the United States and but I was like, man, this energy is magic. I mean, you you you can't h how many times in your life can you create that? And so I opted to stay in the Pacific Islands. I also wanted to spend time with my family because I'd been living away for so long. So that was The beginning of my food journey back in the Pacific, I worked with some great people putting the book together and and Dr. Tracy Berner, who's like a food academic, and then a great photographer from Fiji, Shiri Rahm, and all the people who contributed who were who were just overwhelmed with this, you know, insanely big global award that we got. even now, all these years later, I still feel like really emotional when I try to talk about it because I go back to that to that moment when our name was called and it felt so big. But I had no idea
Albert Grandy III: Mm-hmm.
Robert Oliver: what big even meant then. You know, it played out over years. And so so that book was made into a television series. And of course, then you start spreading the word even bigger about how great the food is. And 'cause the food is great, but getting that message out there was just suddenly amplified yet again. And around 2015 I I became I'd always so Albert just to explain my my motivations were like let's get the cuisine in tourism and lift the region economically out of aid dependence, out of all
Albert Grandy III: Okay.
Robert Oliver: that. Because, you know, this food imports at 80% for tourism, if you bring it down to 30%, you can imagine the The prosperity that flows into the farming communities and the in the islands is huge. But I began to learn about non-communicable diseases in about 2015. And that's diabetes, heart disease, diseases due to what you eat. And and I also realized, you know, and this is not the Pacific, this is glob globally, that'd been a shift away from eating. Cultural food, cuisine, local food, to eating processed food. And the NCD numbers were reflecting that. And and Fiji, for example, had gone from having almost no diabetes when I was a kid to having 84% of the country with some form of diabetes. I mean, just staggering numbers. And and so it was obvious if we if we returned the region to its own natural food system that we'd go a long way towards towards addressing NCDs as well. So am I going I'm rambling here, Albert. Are you are you okay with that? Okay.
Albert Grandy III: Yeah. Keep going. No, this I'm listening and like it's this is this is a this is a great this is a great
Robert Oliver: Okay. Well then then I was like,
Albert Grandy III: Yeah.
Robert Oliver: well, we've got the book and we've done this great TV series previously and th the the word was out and that you know this and the the lift was already happening around around what is local food. And by the way, the reason that people didn't see their food was cuisine or this great, great treasure of cultural treasure was because there weren't any cookbooks saying that. And then also There's kind of a hangover from from colonization where col colonization is fundamentally one re one group of people coming in saying our way is better than your way. And so that lingers, right? That stays in the culture for years and years and years. And then on top of that, globalization, which has got which is around in the Pacific, the g globalization in the food space has appeared as processed food being heavily marketed. And marketing coolness and you know aspirational lifestyles, which are just not true because you end up with diabetes. So that it's it's
Albert Grandy III: Right.
Robert Oliver: all a it's all a big f fraudulent supposition, but nonetheless it is there and it's it's been was very effective. So I I around this time I was like, well, it's not just a an economic thing, it's a it's a whole of life thing to restore this f you know, revive or revitalize or create excitement around this beautiful food system and dishes that I grew up on and that I, you know, as a chef in New York for all those years, I knew I could see the treasure. I could see it on the plate. And I wanted people to feel the same enthusiasm that I felt. And so How do you do that? And around that time I I because of my book award, I suddenly had a big profile and I began to get offered things. And one thing that I got offered was to be a judge on a on
Albert Grandy III: Exactly.
Robert Oliver: a big reality cooking show, a global show called My Kitchen Rules. And Albert, to be honest, when I was first offered the role, I th I don't I'd never liked reality TV. I just thought it was trashy. And I actually said I said to people, I don't do trashy TV. And then I I decided to take it because I knew I realized I'd learn a lot through doing it. And also
Albert Grandy III: Yeah.
Robert Oliver: everyone else on the show were friends of mine, so I was like, well, this is gonna be a great experience. And I thought
Albert Grandy III: Okay.
Robert Oliver: also bringing my persona to a new level would lift the community that I was already working with. So I did it, and then I was like, wow, everyone's watching this. Everyone's
Albert Grandy III: it's not too bad.
Robert Oliver: cooking. Everyone's talking about food. This is this is an incredible mechanism. It's an incredible system for activating traditional cuisines, re- you know, re re-energizing and maybe modernizing in the process what what has been seen as traditional food. And so that's how I started forming Pacific Island Food Revolution, which you know about Albert, because that's how you found me. And that was so we designed a big reality cooking show as the kind of anchor product. and that's what Pacific Island Food Revolution is. And that's easily found online, by the way. On we've got a big YouTube channel and we did three series of the show, we're up to three series. And it's in it's filmed in Fiji Sam or Vanuatu Tonga and episodes in Papua New Guinea. And it's basically a reality cooking show, but it's like the episodes are built around what are what do young kids need to eat? What about that old dish that what about all those greens that we used to have all in all those different ways that we only don't only see a couple of ways now? And what about the people who are already doing amazing work on the ground, like women's organic organic farming groups? What about profiling them in the show and learning from them? I decided that reality TV would be a way to revive and and create this put this great energy behind What is local food and and kind of put the spotlight on those beautiful old dishes that we all grew up on that that kept everybody well. And the value of TV is that a lot also with cookbooks is it is that it glamorizes. You know, you can see a dish a hundred times, then you see it on TV, on a big screen, a big international show. It's like, wow, that really is something. So that was the effect that I wanted to create. And not just that the food was that the people behind the food were you know were making this magic and that and that it w it was a whole kind of of society thing. so we designed episodes specifically addressing some of the issues we knew we had to address like eating more greens, etc. but it there was also just about really looking at the beauty of the culture and and getting You know, part of the d the magic of reality T V is you have contestants and they bring all their knowledge with them. So part of the casting of contestants is making sure that you get people who e people identify with. So you have young women, you have older woman, you have men who often not c associated with being in the kitchen. We always made sure we had different gender types in there as well because in food it's a you know, it's a it's an even society in food. And We're just a cooking show, so we can often bring up issues that may be a bit controversial out of a cooking show arena, but they're safe in the cooking in the cooking space. So yeah, we did three seasons of the show. They're all on YouTube now. And then we started to be measured because we were really lucky, w the the pr as I designed the project, this is back in two thousand seventeen, we were encouraged by some people in the Australian government to apply to to enter into this competition called launch food, which was a global food innovation hub coming out of San Francisco at the time. And we won that. So that that put us in a really good position to speak to governments. And the Australian government right away said we want innovation. everyone's been trying for years through nutritionism. you know, and what about the food space and what about entertainment? Let's give it a shot. Then the New Zealand government came on board and said, Yep, okay, if the Australian government's gonna commit, we will too. So we got we were likely to be funded for three years to to get three seasons of the show 'cause it they're expensive to make. And you don't make a lot of money out of TV. It's like the networks don't pay much and so the returns are low, but the investment is in health and well being rather than entertainment. It's just entertainment's just a mechanism. So t to so that the Australia New Zealand taxpayers didn't say, Why are we funding a reality TV cooking show? They the both governments put in d some serious research into making sure it was working. And we we even we were stunned by how effective this model was, model for transforming food s food systems through entertainment was. We found that For for example, in the in the Kingdom of Tonga, we found that 86% of people were watching the show. And that's because they related to it. They they saw people like them in it. And they saw their food in it. Also, we had the Princess of Tonga was my co-host for the Tongan episode. So they related to the fact that their country was being represented by a royal, and that was a big deal. and then we found overall with and all the countries had very high viewership. And then overall
Albert Grandy III: Okay.
Robert Oliver: We found that forty-two percent of people who watch the show were saying they had made small changes to the way they eat. So, in other words, we'd built a platform upon which to to make really transformative change. and so that's kind of where we're at, Albert. With the the project is now morphing into other kind of revolution spaces. I mean, I th I feel that reality TV has done its bit and now I can go into more direct educational Type stuff and new communities coming in. We've got a big project in the Solomon Islands coming up that we're starting soon. They want total food sovereignty, like a 10-year plan. They want to see their food and education in in hospitals and schools. They want it in their tourism industry. They want it in their lives fully. And so, what does that
Albert Grandy III: Okay.
Robert Oliver: mean? That's a that's a strategy, that's a plan that we're drawing up at the moment. And We've got other bespoke
Albert Grandy III: But
Robert Oliver: projects coming up. there's a project in the Fiji and Samoa. We're working with women farmers. Often women farmers do not have access to the ministerial type. benefits that male farmers have. It's often considered to be a farming a a male dominated industry. So we've got a project with women farmers from Fiji and Samoa upskilling them in food entrepreneurship. And we and while we do that we make a documentary about that because then other countries see that and they're like, we want that too and that's how the things spread. We've definitely used entertainment intentionally to to excite people and and I you know if honestly it's worked that the crazy idea what I thought was trashy, trashy TV is is actually a really great model for for li creating a movement, lifting people up and and not asking people to change but but l allowing them to be the change.
Albert Grandy III: Yeah, that makes sense because it comes from telling a story, right? And like everything about entertainment is how can you tell that story, what no matter what it is. In this case it's food, but in that entertainment space, how can you get someone again not to change their ways, but hopefully be inspired to just change a little thing, you know, have those small measurable outcomes to where they can see themselves be the story, be that change and hopefully put others onto that story as well. So I think that's a great
Robert Oliver: Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: approach to do it.
Robert Oliver: I I think also the the value and I will I've always done this in my work without realizing I was doing it, is I'm not telling the story. I'm creating the platform for the story to be told. So people in the countries tell the story. They tell the story and that's that's powerful. That's that means it's a community, not not a famous person or led by one identity. It's it's actually It's facil my role is to facilitate that storytelling.
Albert Grandy III: And I I do think that's the best approach too, because you're not forcing that story to happen again. You're letting the story come into itself. And you have like like you said, you have the Tongan royalty coming onto the show as a co host. You're for that specific population. So when you have that, they're able to create their own scripts, create their own, you know, whatever it is to get that story going along, but it's still true to the people. And I I think that's the best approach.
Robert Oliver: I mean the other thing that I've really liked about it by the way is that diabetes and heart disease and all those things are depressing. They're a downer and people don't want to talk about them and everyone's sick of being told what to do. Like the nutrition approach is the nutrition information is brilliant, the knowledge is brilliant, but h how do you activate it? And through the food space it's it's you can through these kind of mechanisms. It becomes from being a really bad, frightening story to being a really to being a celebration of of culture. And that's it's a complete flip. So that's something I've liked about it as well. I mean I've loved doing it because I see people come alive when I'm filming with them and they're like they realize that their culture is their cure and that's profound. That's really pr that's a profound thing for people to feel. And then I know the viewers feeling it as well. So it spreads.
Albert Grandy III: So you so you would say like that that would be one of the best ways to pass a food system down is through that positivity, through that growth minded, you know, vision so people can be inspired instead of talking about the depression of whatever, in this case, you non clinical diseases in that aspect. Is that what you're saying? So it be passed down through positivity and through growth.
Robert Oliver: I think everyone likes a good story. Everyone wants to buy into a good story, not a bad story.
Albert Grandy III: Sorry. Sorry.
Robert Oliver: And so that that's the that's the power of it. And there it is a good story. There is a good story to tell. It's not like we have to make it up. It's for real. You know? And I I I see The model that we've developed as as being applicable to other geographies and other cultures. You know, we we've done the hard learning, and now we have a we have a kind of a somewhat of a system that we can now take elsewhere. And we're talking to people in the Philippines at the moment about it, people in Hawaii about it, who are seeing, because this thing is so visible and it's so much fun. You know, people people want to plug in and they wanna they wanna see what they can do with with their own situations around it. I was you know, I've just because I've been running it, I I've just every day I d often don't know what I'm doing, you know, like I'm kinda figuring it out on the fly the whole time. And it was all instinct, you know, and instinct and and and long-term relationships is what made this work from my perspective. And but now that we we've been studied and also last year I was lucky enough to get a Rockefeller Foundation Bellagio Center residency. And so that made that
Albert Grandy III: Yeah, sorry.
Robert Oliver: allowed me to step away from the day to day and doing it and look at it and then write up write it up as a as a kind of almost like a toolkit that that that we can take to other places.
Albert Grandy III: Could you could you actually describe what that fellowship is and what it does for your platform?
Robert Oliver: yeah, sure. So Rockefeller Foundation, as you know, is one of the biggest and probably the oldest meaningful philanthropic organizations in the world. It's the American obviously. And they have a they have a great interest in food system food systems. In fact many of the big organizations do now. And they have a food initiative which is headed by a a visionary guy called Roy Steiner who I met. And I was encouraged to they have a part of the Rockefeller Foundation value is that they have a a place called the Bellagio Center, which is in Bellagio in Italy, and it's where you can apply to go there for a month. and you are positioned with other people who with overlapping kind of capacities and interests. and you work on your thing for a month. So I worked on writing this revolution thing up into something you could actually read and and take somewhere. but it it was a an amazing experience. We we you know, the cohort that I was with it's a really collaborative spirit. It's not it's not competitive. So you feed a lot from your your cohort's input and you feed into theirs. And we had you know incredible cohorts. So I had a Nobel Prize winner and you know it was that level and and it's just an an amazing experience. And it allows you to reflect and and move to the next level. That's what it's done for me for sure. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: Okay, so
Robert Oliver: All the links online to Rockefeller Foundation, Bellagio Centre Residency, How to Apply and all that kind of stuff.
Albert Grandy III: So did you need like a certain track record? Could anyone go through and apply for that?
Robert Oliver: yeah, you need to it's it's a tough application process. I I I think that I think they get thousands of applicants. I'm not surprised when you see the place it's spectacularly beautiful and also then you're with these incredible people. So all I I I most I mean I've applied for a few residencies and this is the only one I've ever gotten. So residencies
Albert Grandy III: So
Robert Oliver: are hard to get anyway, but they're of great value because you get to be with your topic in a way that you're not on survival mode. You're actually sitting there looking at it creatively and strategically. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: Okay. I wanna I wanna I wanna make a little I wanna make a little balance. So when you're when you're creating this food revolution and you as you continue to build it, how are you applying it to tackle those non-communicable diseases? I know you touched on it a little bit, but I w I would like to like know a little bit more on how you're tackling those issues.
Robert Oliver: Well, the first bit that we were doing was just getting the food story out there. And that's what the reality
Albert Grandy III: Mm-hmm.
Robert Oliver: T V did super well. So maybe you don't need to do more than that, by the way. Maybe that's because then people will take it on t the momentum will be picked up and people will take it into their lives themselves. That that is and I see that happening in the Pacific. I see a lot of local local cuisine restaurants that weren't there a while ago. There's a lot of social media sites and and Facebook groups that weren't there. And I'm not saying that's because of us, but we were we were definitely big in that ecosystem to begin. And I think everyone t coming together and this is what I mean by community building, everyone coming into the space at the same time. I mean COVID was actually good for us because people watched our show a lot. And and then and then there was just this a awareness of the local food proposition. It'd be it had been eating well had been positioned through nutritionism rather than culture. So that's the shift that I saw happen. And w we were I feel that we were one of the players who were who were part of making that happen.
Albert Grandy III: Okay. So so it was more on a momentum side. So hopefully that the inspiration of watching the show can help build the momentum with the individuals to just take those, you know, little action steps every single day or every week or every month to just keep building those healthy habits.
Robert Oliver: Yeah, and also make I mean the idea of the show I wanted to make something people wanted to be a part of. And that was what the the big level media does. So it's not just that I'm eating something because I'm because it's healthy. I'm eating something because it's me. I'm eating something because it's cool. I'm eating something because it's it it's beautiful and not because I have to. So that's an important switch. And that's what I mean by going from the nutrition framing to the cultural framing. It's very different. and by the way, the the nutrition framing is super important, but it's good to activate it through the culture. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: No, that makes sense. I know like a lot of time in like my own field and like when you know, when I'm trying to break down difficult topics or concepts to just to people, it's how can you frame it in a way it's saying it's really the same thing as storytelling, but how can you frame it in a way to make people either understand or not just understand but also be a part of that story so they can actually see themselves and visualize what it's doing or how it works. Mm-hmm.
Robert Oliver: Yeah. That's right. And to feel it. It doesn't just go in your head, it goes in your heart. I mean, people get really I like real the reality thing because because the contestants are so so great. And you just you just you know w anyone who watches any reality, you end up really identifying with them and you really you know, you really want people to do well and so that's you wanting yourself to do well actually. So that's the that's that that's a profound internal switch that's g that's b been turned on. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: So were there any so like what were there any crazy dishes that you saw on the reality show? Like in terms of like I know you saw I know like you're you're a certified chef, so like was there anything that you saw that that that just blew your mind?
Robert Oliver: Every single episode. I was just blown up by the creativity, by the passion people had, and by the knowledge that they had that they hadn't necessarily activated in their day-to-day lives, but now they were like, wait a second, we should we should have been doing this the whole time. And so there was just such such beautiful dishes. And you know It's hard to describe because it's like the beautiful not just on TV but they're beautiful unto themselves. So when you see them on TV as well, it just blows it up. The magnifying bit is just huge. but individual dishes, man. I I could be talking for quite a while about that. there were so many that I ended up making a new cookbook just based on the show. Yeah. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: okay. No, but like that's I think that's the power of food right there. It's like it's so many different like I mean you can make a new creation every single day, every single time you make a dish. And like that's the beauty of it too. It's like really 'cause you can really feel I mean, food is is life, food is health. So when you have that feeling, that passion in each dish, like
Robert Oliver: Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: I mean, you really can't even put it into words because that's just how much it it's really great. Like I understand that.
Robert Oliver: Yeah. Yeah. I mean why does everyone why is food T V the biggest the biggest sector on in in entertainment? Why you know, why is the food conversation so so critical? It's because it's it it touches something inside us. I mean, w you know, it's not just that we are what we eat, it's also our relationship with nature gets touched upon. Our relationship with with our ancestors gets touched upon. It's it's it's not just a plate of food. It's the beginning of a of a set of it's like a matrix of connections to community and culture and nature and farming and and ancestral dignity. so it it it's it's pretty powerful once you start playing in that space. And it's not just about health and it's not just about economy. It's just about it's really about who you are and and you know and that and that's a beautiful thing.
Albert Grandy III: So how do we get back to that? How do we get back to nature?
Robert Oliver: Well, I've used reality TV. So yeah, I mean I I really appreciate all the people who do the work in the in the in the n natural programming and and documentary space because I know that they're fundamentally trying to w we we will protect what we love. That's what we that's what we will do as as human beings. And so when you look at the David Attenborough's and the the great series around nature, they're they're reconnecting us to nature and that that's super valuable. But that's really the key to it all, isn't it? I mean, you know, the the the Pacific Islands are pa are paradise. I mean, they are the Garden of Eden. That it's where else do you get organics everywhere and the oceans as they are, this beautiful cuisine? People who live in in accordance largely with the rules of nature. So there's a you know, there's little islands in the Pacific, there's a lot for people to learn about almost this you know, about what a harmonious life actually means. Harmony with the natural world and understanding the spiritual majesty of nature and feeling that. and it's not just a plate of food. It goes way beyond that. So that's the bit that I've loved. Is feeling feeling it myself as I do the as I do the project. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: Have you seen those traditions start to fade as time goes on, as other younger generation is now coming into their own sets of being? Have you seen those traditions start to fade away or is it still there and they still want to learn the Pacific Islands?
Robert Oliver: You know, part of the issue was was that the the glamour of processed food and the marketing of processed food had been so effective that dishes were disappearing and traditions were disappearing, but they've never gone very far. And there's still the generation of grandmothers and And people who love food who who know them. So it's it's it they're the v they're the ones of great value in this space. and so it's not and it's also not just about resurrecting what was. It's like, well, we used to do that, let's do that, but also let's do this, because we've got We've got all these great greens, we've got these coconuts, we've got these seaweeds, we've got these we can do all these other things with it too. And that's what but you know, within the confines of the culture itself. But the the ingredients are are are a part of the culture. So, you know, it one of the one of the things that I enjoyed about the show was we had we had chefs come in who Often they came in wanting to be famous or, you know, but they just got into it and they just bought this incr incredible creativity. And when you look at the cuisine of France or Thailand, those great nations where we look at the cuisine and and it's viewed as so successful, it's so central to the identity of the nation. And it and c I mean, Thailand, food runs the whole economy of the country, not just not just the identity. It's it's the h the whole country is identified with its food. They these nations have kept inventing. So they they did they weren't food colonized. They've kept their own culture front and center and they've there's all these versions of things that keep coming up and people get better and better at it. And that was part of the dynamic that that I wanted Pacific Iron Food Revolution to bring into the into the Pacific as well is this is this energetic creativity that sits within young people everywhere. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: So that energetic creativity. And
Robert Oliver: Mm.
Albert Grandy III: it's something that like that that fra that term to me is something that, you know, it just inspires. It just helps create a passion within people to keep moving forward, just keep building upon what they've learned. And like you said, not only resurrecting what was what was, but now adapting and bringing in what's here currently and either mixing it together, creating something new on their own, or just you know, making a masterpiece. And I think like that's just how the world works.
Robert Oliver: Yeah. Yeah. It's the dynamic, isn't it? I mean I see it happen other things. I mean, I look at I look to Jessica Harris, who is the great African American food writer, and what her books have done, and then it went on to be the Netflix series High on the Hog. These people who hold this knowledge and and are smart enough to collect it and frame it in such a beautiful way, they th th that's legacy. That's incredible legacy. And her her work in the U I mean, I I know her quite well and when I was writing my first book, I I looked up to her, I looked up to her work as someone who'd done something that I wanted to do, albeit I wanted to do it somewhere else. And of course differently, 'cause, you know, I I went into the reality TV space with some urgency around the N C Ds. So but but these people there are people all over the world who are who are doing incredible work in the space. I mean she's she's one that I that I consider to be kind of iconic and and one for many many people to aspire to. Yeah. You've seen Eye on the Hog, right? Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: Yeah, I I have, I have. It's actually it's actually it's pretty funny too because one of my college courses it was like this intro to anthropology class and like one of like one of the projects we had to do was watch Hide and the Hog the entire series on Netflix and then like create our own like our own food table like like based on our own family and our own culture. So it was actually was actually a great great connection. So
Robert Oliver: Great. Well she's an amazing person. and I remember when I first met her I was like dumbstruck 'cause I was such a huge fan of hers. And now we're close friends, you know? People people recognize in each other common passion and and these relationships flourish. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: That's the key. Like, you know, like like great minds think you like and when you're all like minded on a specific topic that you're all passionate about, that's just how the community grows.
Robert Oliver: And I think the common thing is it is people who care, right? People who who are prepared to do their work in a way that impacts communities that they care about. And I I I see that in you, and that's why you're in this path, right? 'Cause you care. So that's you'll find other people around you who care as well and that's to me that's you know what the basis of a great movement is.
Albert Grandy III: thank you. And this is actually something that I wanted to touch on too with you is that extraction piece and like, you know, who benefits from that documentation of food knowledge, who benefits from the community being documented? Are there alternatives to build that way? Like your way was through that reality T V, but you also gave back to the community by letting them tell the story. So like who really benefits from that documentation, whether that's from the big corporations, like you know, Natural Geographic or the History Channel, the Food Channel, or is it from the small time creators, like who really benefits from that documentation?
Robert Oliver: to me it's well the the the benefits that I was looking for were the health benefits. you know, part partly. So obviously the community's the ones who are benefiting from that. but knowledge is is to be managed correctly and and I've made a point of with my books and with my TV is is the whoever does the recipe or tells the story, they they own that. That's theirs. And even in my books I've got a disclaimer saying this is their intellectual property and they've given me permission to publish. Because it n knowledge should not be taken. And and it often research is comes in to countries like we have Pacific people coming to research and then the knowledge from the research doesn't get c returned back to the community. And it's like that's just unfair. It's like a perpetuation of a colonial mechanism to me in many ways. So I've been really careful around that. And it's not something that I was I had to think about because it's obvious that if someone gives you a recipe it's theirs. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: No, because I agree, 'cause like, you know, you like you see that in many examples, not only just in food, but in anything that it comes, you know, it comes from someone is their their idea, their recipe, their creation, their thinking, and it can just be extracted in a way just to be monetized or be televised in a way for entertainment purposes as well. So it's like the idea
Robert Oliver: Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: of giving back to the community that really created it first or just had that knowledge
Robert Oliver: Yeah, absolutely.
Albert Grandy III: that wanted to share.
Robert Oliver: Yeah, yeah. Well, f and from a financial perspective, just so you know, like you don't make a lot of money out of books. You don't make a lot of money out of television unless you're really in the big league of both. And people like me are not not there. So I'm always struggling to put the funds together to keep my project going. And we're luckily at the moment we've got the the farming project I mentioned with the woman farmers from Osamor and Fiji. We've got the Asia Foundation have bought in a fund for that and we're partnering with them on on that. So you know, the next stage of what I do will be really around partnerships and using the media as the activator of of those joint ambitions of the partnerships. Yeah, we're looking at
Albert Grandy III: Okay. Yeah we
Robert Oliver: like a blue food revolution. I'm w I'm wanting to do something with the Pacific's rainbow communities because they've often been left out of the food narrative. So we put a Pacific
Albert Grandy III: Mm-hmm.
Robert Oliver: Rainbow Food Revolution together. There's a large what we call Fafafafine or Leyti demographic in the Pacific, which are trans cultural trans people. Like it's not like trans is the wrong word because it's a Western word, but it's people who identify d different gender wise and they have played a vital role in society traditionally and we're looking to how to you know how to work with the those communities across across the Pacific now as well. Because like I said, the beautiful thing about food is everyone's welcome at the table.
Albert Grandy III: Exactly. And you know, they're great chefs too. The food the food's great, so
Robert Oliver: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Albert Grandy III: Like I had I had an idea. Like I was just thinking, talking to my friend a couple of months ago and I was just thinking about apartment complexes. You know, they have different venues or spaces or c or cacibos where, you know, it's open spaces. I feel what if each apartment had their own garden spaces? You know, if it's outdoor, indoor, but something that's like community built so everyone in that apartment can go in, you know, tend to like they have to maintain the garden off but tender to it, be able to use the garden, replenish it. But that's a way to where that apartment complex can be self sufficient or also people around the surrounding that apartment complex can have a source of like healthy food. And I just
Robert Oliver: Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: wanted to see like what what would like what you thought about there, how that could work in those spaces. Like in like a New York City
Robert Oliver: It's it
Albert Grandy III: or like in a big city.
Robert Oliver: you need to talk to my friend Henry Obispo about this. Cause that's what he does really well. I think I've sent you some links about him, right? So he's he's he's
Albert Grandy III: Mm. Yeah.
Robert Oliver: the guy for that. Cause where where I'm from, you know, people live in the rural areas, people can garden if they want. They have access to great food in the markets. So there's not the same impetus for that. And also I I don't like gardening myself, so I'm I'm like not a good person to to be preaching that
Albert Grandy III: Mm.
Robert Oliver: at all. Most things I plant don't last long. Yeah. So yeah.
Albert Grandy III: Okay. No.
Robert Oliver: Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: But like I do feel like just having some sort of like your own way just to have access to those healthy foods, whether you're able to garden if you if you're not good at gardening, if you know someone that has that access or that distribution through you know, f either farmer markets or whatever, but finding a way to be able to have access to that because I know that is another big issue as well. Because you know, having the knowledge
Robert Oliver: Yeah, absolutely.
Albert Grandy III: and knowing about it, knowing how healthy it is to be to be a part of that community. is one thing but also having that access and distribution to that is another thing as well.
Robert Oliver: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah,
Albert Grandy III: Yeah.
Robert Oliver: yeah. No, th those models are out there. They're just not something I know at all. Yeah. I've I've remained firmly in the cuisine cooking part of that. I'm in the demand bit, not the supply. Yeah.
Albert Grandy III: All right, is there any is there any any any tips or any any dish that you wanna show off or you can tell right now that that just comes to mind? Like the first issue comes to mind. Something that you know, something that's unique to you.
Robert Oliver: Well,
Albert Grandy III: Yeah.
Robert Oliver: in f in the Pacific we have a lot of seaweeds. We eat lot of seaweeds and also things like fermented coconut.
Albert Grandy III: Okay.
Robert Oliver: I mean everything's got coconut. So I would suggest people look on our website, the Pacific Island Food Revolution.
Albert Grandy III: That sounds good. Again, thank you for your time. Hope everyone enjoyed this episode and stay tuned.
