Jill: Hello and welcome to season two, episode two of the strategic pause. I'm Jill Parrish. This is my partner here, Katrina Kennedy. Hi, Katrina.
Katrina: Hello, Joe.
Jill: And today we are, this is probably my favorite topic. We are talking about what we're reading. And we did an episode of this in our last season, and we decided we'll just do a reading episode every season because both Katrina and I are big bookworms. You can see behind me, all of my books are in rainbow order, and that is the way they are in every bookshelf in my house because it is aesthetically pleasing to me. Do you arrange your books in Rainbow anywhere? I know you don't behind you. And there's lap one. Okay, yeah, yeah, okay.
Katrina: No, because I mean I have a little like color grouping, but they're by categories subject.
Jill: tell us more. Okay. Tell us more.
Katrina: So over here we have facilitation books. Over here we
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: have books by Chris Gillibo because I'm a big fan. Over here
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: are books that have been recommended by others or my book group has read. My the learning the Let's Learn Together book group. And then here we have popular thinkers and management books. And then over here we have books on writing.
Jill: You have a whole shelf for books on writing?
Katrina: Yes, I do. In fact, I have two shelves on books on writing. This is one of them and the other one is in my house.
Jill: That is impressive. I had no idea. You have a a very significant organization structure there on your shelves. I do not. Mine are pretty colors next to pretty colors next to pretty colors and then followed by pretty colors. So I don't know what that says about the two of us, but that is my structure of my book organization. And anyways, go ahead.
Katrina: It's it's it's probably about how we use them because I
Jill: That's tr it's true.
Katrina: go to my books fairly often. so the books that are higher are books that I don't go to as often. They're more just like things that I've enjoyed in the past, and then when we get to I suddenly feel like a flight attendant.
Jill: And then over here
Katrina: And over here you'll find two exits lit by But I I reference these a lot, so they're in like the
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: reference easy grab spot.
Jill: Yeah, okay. I I am similar, but I still like how pretty they look. And I will say, since I changed my so I think we started this podcast with this background, I think, because about
Katrina: Hm. We did.
Jill: a year ago I changed where my desk was in my office. And so I used to have a photo behind me or like an artwork. And Since I have had these books, I cannot tell you how many people jump on a Zoom with me for the first time and the first thing out of their mouth is, my God, I love your books. So it definitely catches the eye. And there's quite a few people that that starts the conversation before we talk about anything else. It's it's my God, I love your books. Are you a big reader? I'm a big reader. Which is honestly one of my favorite ways to connect with people. So I'm a big fan.
Katrina: I I I think, you know, books were definitely one of the ways you and I connected.
Jill: Yeah, that's true.
Katrina: I was I was on a webinar I two weeks ago or so, and I love starting most things that I do by just taking two minutes and asking people to ask me anything so that you know who I am. And and and people are are
Jill: I like that. I'm gonna take notes. Okay.
Katrina: people are typically really kind with whatever they ask, but someone said
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: What's your favorite book on your shelf? And one, like, favorite book is kind of like a hard thing, right? Like it's have like having a favorite child. You just you just can't go there. But I did
Jill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no.
Katrina: say, I like this yellow one.
Jill: The best book on my shelf, there's actually no question. It's right here loading that last. Same with me. It's same. It's the best
Katrina: Learning the last yeah, the one I wrote.
Jill: one here. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now, awkwardly
Katrina: Yeah.
Jill: enough, I'm noticing that the one next to yours is actually also written by a guy I used to work with who I also know and really like. So I'm hoping Doctor
Katrina: Yeah.
Jill: Winters doesn't hear me that I just pointed your book out next to his and said it's better. But if he does I love you, Doctor Winters, you're great also.
Katrina: So what's what's the title of that book?
Jill: this is called You're the Leader Now What? And Dr. Winters is a physician at the Mayo Clinic. And I've worked with him since UCSF, and he's he's great. In fact, this this did not we did not plan this, but you should go find Dr. Richard Winters stuff. He's actually very, very good and he's got some good leadership and coaching stuff, especially if you happen to be in healthcare. But, anyways. Now we can actually start talking about what are we reading, right? And I was gonna kick us off,
Katrina: Ha ha ha.
Jill: although we're five minutes and 42 seconds in, with
Katrina: But who's counting?
Jill: but who's counting? I was gonna kick us off, kick us off, you know, a fifth into the whole show, with an kind of an interesting where place where reading intersected with real life. For me. And so that was over the summer we went to Amsterdam. And while we were in Amsterdam, we went and visited the Anne Frank House. And I had read The Diary of a Young Girl, which is Anne Frank's story, probably in seventh grade or sixth grade. but because you know we were going there, I decided to read it again. And I mean, it was an entirely different experience this time for probably a couple reasons. A, I'm not 12. and so maybe have some, you know, I might act like I'm 12. I'm not actually 12. Have some different insight. But B, that whole book was so brought to life by being in the apartment that her whole family hid in and being able to hear. you know, in my head, her stories while I was in these rooms that she lived for years in. and I left thinking like that's wild, right? It was a book. It was something that was so I don't know, nebulous, and it and it turned into something so concrete and real. and it it just gave the whole trip a a different light for me. And so I was curious if that's Anything you've experienced or if if you can relate or if you're was still stuck in the fact that I'm not twelve and you're surprised by that.
Katrina: I love when reading and life can come together like that. I I almost always try to read a book about wherever I'm traveling.
Jill: Mm.
Katrina: it and and I and I had a similar experience with with the Anne Frank house. you know, and and kind of it just it just changes. It just changes. having that context.
Jill: Right.
Katrina: and you know, I was just having the conversation at lunch today with my son that reading a book when you are young is so different than reading a book when you're an adult. And even at different points as an
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: adult, you you see things differently. You have you have completely different context to read within. And I'm I'm trying to think of of speci other other books that I that I've like like the diary of Anne Frank, but I'm I'm
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: not having any that like really come to mind except I just thought of one. I did. I have been reading since January a book about an artist. And now the name Gabrielle. So the book is called Gabrielle. Isn't that funny how our brains work? I couldn't
Jill: Okay. Okay. Mm-hmm.
Katrina: she was the wife of a famous artist around the same time as Picasso and everyone in Paris. And so I've been reading
Jill: Okay. Okay.
Katrina: that book only when I'm at the Crocker Art Museum in Sacramento. And it has been this fabulously cool experience to be reading about her life and her her her experiences with all of these artists around her. And it was actually written by her, I don't know, it was like some herb of her family who have
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: pieced it all together. It's kind of fictionalized, but based on as much real information as they could find. and it's it's changed how I look at some art. and it's definitely made me look at pieces of art that she meant that are mentioned in the story to then
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: like be able to to see it as well as read it. So that's that's kind of my like intersection, but it's it's been a very intentional, like I am gonna read this book about art, but only when I'm surrounded by art.
Jill: So that's wild to me because so like you're reading multiple books at a time then in theory.
Katrina: Always.
Jill: Always. So how many like how many books are you reading right now? Do you even know?
Katrina: Let's see. I thought I thought this question might come up. So
Jill: You mean we planned for this, obviously.
Katrina: I think that's the funny thing, like people might assume, but we did not.
Jill: We did that. Mm mm.
Katrina: but I think I think we've we've gotten to a place, like I feel like I've gotten to a place that I know you well enough to know where we might go.
Jill: Interesting. Okay. So you did actually think about in advance, which is it's just basically planning. So even though we didn't know we were playing. Okay.
Katrina: Yeah, it just it's funny. I I feel like I'm not planning if I'm not writing it down, even though it's like happening in my head. So on my k I have a Kendall book always, because I
Jill: that's wild. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Katrina: wake up at two AM and you need something to read that does not require the light. or like I wake up
Jill: okay, okay.
Katrina: at two AM and I am reading What If We Get It Right? Visions of
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: Climate Futures by Ayana Elizabeth Johnson.
Jill: You can read that at 2 a.m. and go back to sleep. Doesn't it like make you scared for like the future of our world and then keep you up? Maybe there's a reason you're waking up at 2 a.m. Maybe we should look at what you're reading at 2 a.m. Okay, okay, okay.
Katrina: So so it's actually really hopeful. Like it's really hopeful. There it's a lot of it it's she's interviewed a lot of different people about
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: good things that are happening, like good efforts that people are are engaged in to build community, to build awareness, to build connection. because that's what she sees and so many of the people she talks to see as the the answer to our environmental issues. You know, if
Jill: Okay. Okay. Okay.
Katrina: if if I know my neighbor, we're gonna have a better community.
Jill: Yeah, I yeah, okay. I like that. So it's kind of like environmentalism through the the lens of like people and connection. I like that. Okay, okay.
Katrina: Abs absolutely, absolutely. And had one of the best lines I've read that I think is totally relevant for leadership, which was a and I spent I've spent a lot of time trying to build this, so this
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: isn't a crazy thing for me to say. Don't try to build consensus because
Jill: Mm.
Katrina: someone will always be unhappy.
Jill: That makes total sense, actually. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Katrina: It does. It does. You know, you know, and and I think that I think it that holds true in your house with three boys. Your
Jill: Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah.
Katrina: Organizations, teams, like we try to make everybody happy and then nobody's happy.
Jill: Yes. Yes. It's interesting because this is a just a a quick pivot and then I'll go back to what we're actually talking about. But when I teach decision making, we teach that there's four kind of decisions, and one of them is unanimous. And I kind of always said, and that don't do that. Like don't make a unanimous decision. And one of the things I say is people actually generally can handle hearing the decision that they don't like. What they can't handle is ambiguity. And when you get into this trying to make a consensus world, it's just ambiguo ambiguous because you can't get consensus. We're all humans. We all have different perspectives. And so interesting. So that ties right back in there. Okay. Okay.
Katrina: Yeah, I I was I really was pleased with that. And then the other book that I am reading is A Little More Social.
Jill: that's right. We talked about this. Okay. Tell us more.
Katrina: By Nicholas Epley. So so good. okay, we could end up spending like all of our time talking about this. And maybe we should just do a whole episode on this book.
Jill: Okay, that's actually not a bad idea at all.
Katrina: The basic idea is that we all need to make the small connections that we think about in our day-to-day life because
Jill: Mm.
Katrina: we are all human and we need each other and we are we when we act in this is this is such a hot button moment. when we act in an extroverted way, we actually increase our well being. Doesn't mean you have to be extroverted.
Jill: Yes.
Katrina: But that moment where you make a decision to reach out and have
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Katrina: the conversation or give the compliment actually improves your overall well-being. And when I read that in the fur the chapter that I I just finished, I was like, BS. But then
Jill: Ha ha ha. You're wrong, mister. You you probably researched this
Katrina: Ya that's exact yeah, like in my head and
Jill: for years, but you're wrong.
Katrina: And then the next sentence is, people often push back on this.
Jill: Well go sorry, go
Katrina: And then he proceeded to he proceeded to explain and give all the research behind it and so I'm sold. We need people. And when we extrovert a lot, we are exhausted because we're human.
Jill: Yes. Right. And we need time to recharge. And some people need a lot more time to recharge. And that's reasonable,
Katrina: Right.
Jill: totally. But it doesn't mean they
Katrina: Yeah.
Jill: don't need people. have you and I talked
Katrina: Right.
Jill: about the longest running study on well being and longevity?
Katrina: I think it has come up before. I mean, I'm aware of it. I think we could also just do a whole session on that as well, or whole episode. Or a session.
Jill: A session that's true, and maybe we should, but spoiler alert, it's connection. Connection with other people. Community is the the biggest indicator of life longevity beyond whether you smoke, whether you are overweight, whether you whatever, drink six gallons of whiskey a day. Which is probably not a good idea either, but
Katrina: Okay, six I don't know that they tested for six gallons. Just to be clear, we have to stay within the parameters of the study. I'm really well connected as I'm drinking
Jill: Can you tell I don't really drink?
Katrina: my six gallons of whiskey. That'll save me.
Jill: What does six gallons of whiskey even look like? Yeah, they probably didn't study that. That's a good call out. But
Katrina: There there's some point that cirrhosis will take you, even though you have hundreds of friends.
Jill: if you were drinking six gallons of whiskey, think how social you'd be. You'd be talking to all the people. Anyways, don't drink six gallons of whiskey. But To your point, that is, I mean, that connection, that human connection is the greatest indicator of living a long life. And to
Katrina: Yeah, absolutely.
Jill: your point, I think pe people do push back on that a lot. But I think
Katrina: Mm-hmm.
Jill: it's the kind of connection that you need, right? Not everybody needs to hold hands and in a circle and talk about their life traumas and thoughts. But
Katrina: Right. And then do a trust fall.
Jill: And do a trust fall all the while blindfolded. not, you know, that's a very small segment of people, but the ability to have somebody check in on you and like how was the doctor's appointment, or to be able to say hi to somebody as you're on a walk that there's just somebody there, it it really i fosters that sense of a community, even if they seem small and insignificant.
Katrina: Absolutely. And that's he he backs it up. He he shares that study and gave this really clear for me I idea of what happens in our brain. That we're either like we have like an approach and an avoid reaction, like these
Jill: Mm.
Katrina: two opposing you know things that happen in our brain. And so, you know, you see the person that this happens to me a lot. I love I I I notice people a lot and I love to give compliments. But you always have to
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: like gauge, right? So so the approach part of my brain is like tell them, you know, share that with them. And then the avoidance part of my brain is like, my gosh, what if they, what if they, right? And like you go through that whole list. and so those those competing parts are what often stop people from
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: from approaching. So I th I just really appreciated that clarity.
Jill: we should do a whole episode on this because we could finish this. I've got like 16 things I could say about this. but I'm gonna bring us back to reading. But I do think there is so much to be said about that. Because even some but like I consider myself an extrovert of all extroverts. And even I have to talk myself into going to social stuff sometimes. I mean because we're human and we get tired and and our brains are weird. And but it's good for us.
Katrina: It is good for us. I think, well, yeah, that we should do a whole episode on this because
Jill: Yeah, okay.
Katrina: you know, I'm immediately going to like the the parameters that I feel like I am putting on social situations for myself now so that I get what I need versus that yuck that can happen. But another episode.
Jill: Okay, so you're reading the Hopeful Climate Change book, the books that you only read at art galleries, the book about being social that you called bullshit, but then you actually came around. Okay, so those those three, anything else?
Katrina: And John of Johns by Douglas Stewart. he's a Scottish writer who lives in New York City, former Booker Prize winner and for Suggy Bane, and he just got long listed for this year's Booker Prize, and his writing is fabulous. And that's just my book for pleasure.
Jill: Okay. And so do you have parameters around when you read I mean, I heard the the two AM story, but when do you read John of John's versus the social book?
Katrina: So I read this okay, this is gonna sound I'll like I I have parameters.
Jill: I know you do, that's why I wanna know
Katrina: But I also read like a hundred books a year because of these parameters, right? And I enjoy those.
Jill: Yeah, huh, huh.
Katrina: It's not just like read through them. Okay.
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: So I tend to read for between five to fifteen minutes every morning. And that is
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: the social book or something in the nonfiction realm.
Jill: Okay. Okay.
Katrina: I read fiction at night before I go to bed for about
Jill: okay.
Katrina: Five to fifteen minutes, depending on the day and depending on energy. And then the Kendall book, which is is not always fiction, some or not always nonfiction, it's sometimes fiction. I read that about an hour every night at two AM. Almost every night. Yeah, almost.
Jill: Every night, pretty much every day you wake up at two a do you think that maybe you've trained your brain to now to wake up at two AM and read? That's another story. Okay, go ahead
Katrina: So here's the wild thing. That's another story. And that actually is a whole other story because I remember the 2 a.m. reading more than any of the other readings.
Jill: That is interesting. That is interesting. Okay.
Katrina: Yeah. Okay, so enough about me. Tell me what are your parameters?
Jill: so I am generally reading two books at a time, but I listen to one and I'm reading one with a physical copy. So I am a big audiobooks or books. I don't read to exercise my eyes, I
Katrina: Absolutely.
Jill: read to exercise my brain. And so I listen to nonfiction and I read fiction. So those are my parameters. And I listen to I walk almost every morning for 30 to 45 minutes, depending on what's going on. And that is my book time, my audiobook time. And I also will listen to audiobooks in my car sometimes, but oddly enough, it actually makes me sleepy, depending on the book. So I can't always do that. because I don't want to fall asleep on the freeway, you know, at 4 p.m. or something. You know, so sometimes I also
Katrina: I appreciate that.
Jill: need to listen to Missy Elliott and get me going and moving. so those are my parameters. And I tend to go in like patterns and so as far as like what kind of books I read. And so I was on this kick of like memoirs of like crazy things that have happened to people. Or that those sorts of stories, like that kind of story. and so that's what I was sort of on. and I just finished Busy Phillips memoir. She's a celebrity. It was fine, it was okay. And I started a new book, and I don't even know if I should say the name because cause where I'm going with this is I think I'm gonna not finish this book. because I'm just I it's okay. It's just not that great. And while I was trying to decide that, another book I had on hold came up because I'm very into the Libby app, which is a library app, and it is a book on the creation of the musical Hamilton. And I started listening to it and I immediately got into it. So all that to say, I'm curious. As far as you go, do you have rules for when you don't finish a book, when you keep reading? Like what's your parameters around that?
Katrina: I really have to finish every book.
Jill: You have to okay. I know there were people like that. I used to be one. Yes, okay.
Katrina: It causes me really great pain to not finish a book.
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: like I mean one, I'm hopeful, right? I'm like, please get better. Please get better.
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: Now, okay, there I do have one s one place that I will not finish. If I've open the book and
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Katrina: in the first three pages
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Katrina: the writing feels like I'm reading a third grade book that just like the style is bad, the grammar, like it's just I
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Katrina: will not go on.
Jill: Okay, s but but once you hit three pages, like you're in.
Katrina: I'm in. I
Jill: That's impressive.
Katrina: I I'm in, you know, they may sit for a while and then I'll go to something else and then I'll come back. And you know, so I have books I haven't finished, but my intention is always to finish. Yeah, there I
Jill: Okay. Okay. It's to finish them. Okay. Okay.
Katrina: and I read somewhere and I don't remember where. I'm gonna see if I can find this and then I'll I'll share.
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: so so tell me about what caused you to be a a a finisher and then
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: move to not finishing.
Jill: so interestingly enough, it was having kids. So I was a crazy big reader, all through elementary school, high school, college, right up until I had my first son. and I say son because I only have sons, so that's in my world, that's what kids are. so I really read very little. For like 10 years, between my first son and my last son. Truly, I mean, I probably read five books during that 10 years. And once I had my last son, there was something about I don't, I mean, I had three kids, it wasn't like I was had time on my hands, but there was something about the completion of like that part of my life where I was like, I want to start reading again. And so I I have every lit literally every book I've read since 2017. I record. I've had it recorded. And that's when my little guy was like, you know, he was like six months old. But when I picked reading back up, I very quickly was like, no. Like, uh-uh. If it doesn't catch me, like I can't. I I don't got time for I don't got time for a bad book. So that is what when it was. And I do try to stay with them. Like, I I love Sometimes a book does surprise me, right? in fact I just read one that surprised me and and if I would have given up, I would have not gotten the great book. But there are some books I'm just like I can't. Like I just can't stick with
Katrina: Yeah.
Jill: it. And there's so many books I wanna read, so I gotta move on to those.
Katrina: That is really like what makes me try to change. And and I found the rule of thumb. My my dear friend Ann Janser, I believe, who writes books on writing, who is who is actually my friend. Right, right. Yeah, she's definitely,
Jill: Okay. That you have a whole shelf of okay.
Katrina: where is it? The that shelf. That shelf. it's
Jill: So over there on my yeah, huh?
Katrina: that, yeah, it's that shelf. She wrote about this, and then I've seen it come up a couple of other places. So librarian Nancy Pearl
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: gives the the strategy that called 100 minus your age. So so take your take 100, subtract your age, and that's how many pages you should read before you give up. Yeah. Yeah. So my number's slower than that.
Jill: Okay. Okay. Okay, so 54. Okay, 54 pages. Okay. Okay. That's I would say that's pretty accurate. I would say that's about when I give up. I mean, I do think maybe it's like in the thirties or forties, but it's somewhere around there.
Katrina: Okay.
Jill: but if I'm too far gone, I'm too far gone. I'll just stick with it because what I do love is to be able to cross things off of a list. And I can't
Katrina: me too.
Jill: write it and put a check next to it if I didn't finish it. So I will if I'm in deep, I'll I'll see it through. But if it doesn't catch me in those first few pages, I can't I can't hang. I can't hang. Yeah.
Katrina: Yeah. Yeah.
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: Yeah. I do have one book that I got about halfway through. And I literally just went, this is stupid. I don't believe you. I think this is all
Jill: Ha ha ha
Katrina: made up. I think you are ridiculous. I think you tell big stories and that have no relevance. And I didn't even I
Jill: Right
Katrina: didn't even give the book. To goodwill or thrift it, I threw it in the recycle bin.
Jill: snap I don't think I've ever done that. my goodness. Whew.
Katrina: Yeah, I have. And that was before
Jill: You wrote a book?
Katrina: He became popular.
Jill: boy.
Katrina: I'll just leave it at that. It'll be a mystery.
Jill: You're not gonna tell us. Okay.
Katrina: He's in political power.
Jill: I know what book you're talking about. I know exactly what book you're talking about. Okay. I I read that as well. Yep. Interesting. Okay.
Katrina: Farthest I've ever gotten in a book and decided like, nope, wasting my time.
Jill: Okay. I just read, that's yes, okay. I just read, and we're already at 30 minutes. See, this is this goes they go so fast. I know. the book I was talking about that I almost gave up on, and I'm glad I didn't, was called Winter Dance by Gary Paulson. So Gary Paulson wrote
Katrina: Hmm.
Jill: Hatchet, I think. Like he's a young adult author. and so he wrote, or maybe not even young adult, I don't know. He wrote this book called Winter Dance, and it's the story of him deciding he wanted to do the Edideron. And it starts In a weird place. And it gets at first I was like, mm-hmm, okay, carry on, carry on. But I had read something that said it was really good. And so I was like, all right, I'm gonna stick with it. But it really was like 45 minutes into it until I was like, okay, this is really good. And it turned out to be great and like super into it. But I I almost gave up and I would have missed out. So, you know, there you go.
Katrina: There you go. There you go.
Jill: Yeah, yeah. But it's a good book.
Katrina: So we could so easily talk about audiobooks. because because now not only do you have a writing issue, you have a narration, narrator
Jill: yeah. Mm-hmm.
Katrina: issue and there are a lot of things that make an audiobook a good audiobook. that I think yeah.
Jill: Yeah. Yeah. And that's true. I have definitely stopped audiobooks because I couldn't handle the voice. But that is usually within I mean truly within the first five minutes. It's like, I just know I'm not gonna let it listen to eight hours of this. but you're right, it's a whole different it's a whole different thing. And I've heard that people don't like when the authors read their own books, but I actually love that.
Katrina: I think it's a pens. I I think memoirs I I prefer if the author reads it. Nonfiction
Jill: Okay, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Katrina: or like a or like just regular fiction non-memoir, then like maybe get somebody good.
Jill: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the last thing I will say before I close us out is you and I had talked about I just yesterday finished the book The Hundred Lives of or The Hundred Years of Lenny and Margot. and it was very sweet and a little bit heartbreaking. But if anybody is interested in a good fiction recommendation, The Hundred Years of Lenny and Margot by Marianne Cronin was a really good book and Katrina read it as well a bit ago. But it might make you it doesn't make me cry because I don't have a lot of feelings, but it will probably make most people cry at least a little bit. Because it's it's kind of a sad.
Katrina: Because you you have no tears.
Jill: That's we could do a whole other episode on that. I don't think I've ever cried in a book. I I I don't I know, I know, and I know there are people who think I am a broken human. It's not to say I never cry, but I don't know that I've ever cried over a book. It's just it doesn't hit me that way. I don't know. Okay, thank you. I appreciate that.
Katrina: What I wouldn't judge you for that, but but I have had some really, really like meaningful cries over books.
Jill: I think most people have. Yeah, I don't know why that is.
Katrina: Yeah.
Jill: anyways, that's might be another story. Okay, we are at the end of our time. Ten more episodes.
Katrina: I think we've like created ten more episodes out of this episode.
Jill: I agree. And I feel like we could probably talk about books for another three hours and make this like a four-hour podcast. but before we go, any final book thoughts.
Katrina: my thought is just read, read, read, read. And
Jill: Yeah. Freed. Freed.
Katrina: I don't even think it matters what you read. You know, we talk
Jill: it doesn't.
Katrina: about a lot of like memoirs and environmental and this and that, but I think just the act of reading, just stopping, pausing, using that critical thinking, I I think it's so easily can be a lost art. But we know to bring it back to leadership, we know that the best leaders are also readers.
Jill: They are. Hey, and that rhymes. Leaders and readers. And there we go. We could probably combine a word from that and create our word of the day. La readers. We're leaders. And there we go.
Katrina: And sudden slippily slip
Jill: All right, we'll close on that. Go be a re leader and read a book.
Katrina: It's time, Jill, for your leadership moment. So from this episode,
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: what is it?
Jill: So I'm gonna this is hard for me not to get on my soapbox here. So I'm gonna try to stay off of my soapbox when I do this leadership moment. But I firmly believe to be a leader, you gotta be a reader. As kind of silly as that seems. I think when we read, we get new perspectives. I don't even care what you read. I don't think it has to be business books. I think you can listen to audiobooks, I think you can read, I think you can look at graphic novels. In my opinion, it doesn't matter what, but I do think to grow as humans, reading is crucial. And I think it's it's imperative that leaders are reading. There's learning about different perspectives. And I really just want everybody to be a reader, Katrina. I want everybody to be a reader. That's my leadership moment of the day.
Katrina: Thanks, Jill.
Jill: Alright, thanks everybody. Go read now.
Katrina: Hello, Joe.
Jill: And today we are, this is probably my favorite topic. We are talking about what we're reading. And we did an episode of this in our last season, and we decided we'll just do a reading episode every season because both Katrina and I are big bookworms. You can see behind me, all of my books are in rainbow order, and that is the way they are in every bookshelf in my house because it is aesthetically pleasing to me. Do you arrange your books in Rainbow anywhere? I know you don't behind you. And there's lap one. Okay, yeah, yeah, okay.
Katrina: No, because I mean I have a little like color grouping, but they're by categories subject.
Jill: tell us more. Okay. Tell us more.
Katrina: So over here we have facilitation books. Over here we
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: have books by Chris Gillibo because I'm a big fan. Over here
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: are books that have been recommended by others or my book group has read. My the learning the Let's Learn Together book group. And then here we have popular thinkers and management books. And then over here we have books on writing.
Jill: You have a whole shelf for books on writing?
Katrina: Yes, I do. In fact, I have two shelves on books on writing. This is one of them and the other one is in my house.
Jill: That is impressive. I had no idea. You have a a very significant organization structure there on your shelves. I do not. Mine are pretty colors next to pretty colors next to pretty colors and then followed by pretty colors. So I don't know what that says about the two of us, but that is my structure of my book organization. And anyways, go ahead.
Katrina: It's it's it's probably about how we use them because I
Jill: That's tr it's true.
Katrina: go to my books fairly often. so the books that are higher are books that I don't go to as often. They're more just like things that I've enjoyed in the past, and then when we get to I suddenly feel like a flight attendant.
Jill: And then over here
Katrina: And over here you'll find two exits lit by But I I reference these a lot, so they're in like the
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: reference easy grab spot.
Jill: Yeah, okay. I I am similar, but I still like how pretty they look. And I will say, since I changed my so I think we started this podcast with this background, I think, because about
Katrina: Hm. We did.
Jill: a year ago I changed where my desk was in my office. And so I used to have a photo behind me or like an artwork. And Since I have had these books, I cannot tell you how many people jump on a Zoom with me for the first time and the first thing out of their mouth is, my God, I love your books. So it definitely catches the eye. And there's quite a few people that that starts the conversation before we talk about anything else. It's it's my God, I love your books. Are you a big reader? I'm a big reader. Which is honestly one of my favorite ways to connect with people. So I'm a big fan.
Katrina: I I I think, you know, books were definitely one of the ways you and I connected.
Jill: Yeah, that's true.
Katrina: I was I was on a webinar I two weeks ago or so, and I love starting most things that I do by just taking two minutes and asking people to ask me anything so that you know who I am. And and and people are are
Jill: I like that. I'm gonna take notes. Okay.
Katrina: people are typically really kind with whatever they ask, but someone said
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: What's your favorite book on your shelf? And one, like, favorite book is kind of like a hard thing, right? Like it's have like having a favorite child. You just you just can't go there. But I did
Jill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no.
Katrina: say, I like this yellow one.
Jill: The best book on my shelf, there's actually no question. It's right here loading that last. Same with me. It's same. It's the best
Katrina: Learning the last yeah, the one I wrote.
Jill: one here. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now, awkwardly
Katrina: Yeah.
Jill: enough, I'm noticing that the one next to yours is actually also written by a guy I used to work with who I also know and really like. So I'm hoping Doctor
Katrina: Yeah.
Jill: Winters doesn't hear me that I just pointed your book out next to his and said it's better. But if he does I love you, Doctor Winters, you're great also.
Katrina: So what's what's the title of that book?
Jill: this is called You're the Leader Now What? And Dr. Winters is a physician at the Mayo Clinic. And I've worked with him since UCSF, and he's he's great. In fact, this this did not we did not plan this, but you should go find Dr. Richard Winters stuff. He's actually very, very good and he's got some good leadership and coaching stuff, especially if you happen to be in healthcare. But, anyways. Now we can actually start talking about what are we reading, right? And I was gonna kick us off,
Katrina: Ha ha ha.
Jill: although we're five minutes and 42 seconds in, with
Katrina: But who's counting?
Jill: but who's counting? I was gonna kick us off, kick us off, you know, a fifth into the whole show, with an kind of an interesting where place where reading intersected with real life. For me. And so that was over the summer we went to Amsterdam. And while we were in Amsterdam, we went and visited the Anne Frank House. And I had read The Diary of a Young Girl, which is Anne Frank's story, probably in seventh grade or sixth grade. but because you know we were going there, I decided to read it again. And I mean, it was an entirely different experience this time for probably a couple reasons. A, I'm not 12. and so maybe have some, you know, I might act like I'm 12. I'm not actually 12. Have some different insight. But B, that whole book was so brought to life by being in the apartment that her whole family hid in and being able to hear. you know, in my head, her stories while I was in these rooms that she lived for years in. and I left thinking like that's wild, right? It was a book. It was something that was so I don't know, nebulous, and it and it turned into something so concrete and real. and it it just gave the whole trip a a different light for me. And so I was curious if that's Anything you've experienced or if if you can relate or if you're was still stuck in the fact that I'm not twelve and you're surprised by that.
Katrina: I love when reading and life can come together like that. I I almost always try to read a book about wherever I'm traveling.
Jill: Mm.
Katrina: it and and I and I had a similar experience with with the Anne Frank house. you know, and and kind of it just it just changes. It just changes. having that context.
Jill: Right.
Katrina: and you know, I was just having the conversation at lunch today with my son that reading a book when you are young is so different than reading a book when you're an adult. And even at different points as an
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: adult, you you see things differently. You have you have completely different context to read within. And I'm I'm trying to think of of speci other other books that I that I've like like the diary of Anne Frank, but I'm I'm
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: not having any that like really come to mind except I just thought of one. I did. I have been reading since January a book about an artist. And now the name Gabrielle. So the book is called Gabrielle. Isn't that funny how our brains work? I couldn't
Jill: Okay. Okay. Mm-hmm.
Katrina: she was the wife of a famous artist around the same time as Picasso and everyone in Paris. And so I've been reading
Jill: Okay. Okay.
Katrina: that book only when I'm at the Crocker Art Museum in Sacramento. And it has been this fabulously cool experience to be reading about her life and her her her experiences with all of these artists around her. And it was actually written by her, I don't know, it was like some herb of her family who have
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: pieced it all together. It's kind of fictionalized, but based on as much real information as they could find. and it's it's changed how I look at some art. and it's definitely made me look at pieces of art that she meant that are mentioned in the story to then
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: like be able to to see it as well as read it. So that's that's kind of my like intersection, but it's it's been a very intentional, like I am gonna read this book about art, but only when I'm surrounded by art.
Jill: So that's wild to me because so like you're reading multiple books at a time then in theory.
Katrina: Always.
Jill: Always. So how many like how many books are you reading right now? Do you even know?
Katrina: Let's see. I thought I thought this question might come up. So
Jill: You mean we planned for this, obviously.
Katrina: I think that's the funny thing, like people might assume, but we did not.
Jill: We did that. Mm mm.
Katrina: but I think I think we've we've gotten to a place, like I feel like I've gotten to a place that I know you well enough to know where we might go.
Jill: Interesting. Okay. So you did actually think about in advance, which is it's just basically planning. So even though we didn't know we were playing. Okay.
Katrina: Yeah, it just it's funny. I I feel like I'm not planning if I'm not writing it down, even though it's like happening in my head. So on my k I have a Kendall book always, because I
Jill: that's wild. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Katrina: wake up at two AM and you need something to read that does not require the light. or like I wake up
Jill: okay, okay.
Katrina: at two AM and I am reading What If We Get It Right? Visions of
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: Climate Futures by Ayana Elizabeth Johnson.
Jill: You can read that at 2 a.m. and go back to sleep. Doesn't it like make you scared for like the future of our world and then keep you up? Maybe there's a reason you're waking up at 2 a.m. Maybe we should look at what you're reading at 2 a.m. Okay, okay, okay.
Katrina: So so it's actually really hopeful. Like it's really hopeful. There it's a lot of it it's she's interviewed a lot of different people about
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: good things that are happening, like good efforts that people are are engaged in to build community, to build awareness, to build connection. because that's what she sees and so many of the people she talks to see as the the answer to our environmental issues. You know, if
Jill: Okay. Okay. Okay.
Katrina: if if I know my neighbor, we're gonna have a better community.
Jill: Yeah, I yeah, okay. I like that. So it's kind of like environmentalism through the the lens of like people and connection. I like that. Okay, okay.
Katrina: Abs absolutely, absolutely. And had one of the best lines I've read that I think is totally relevant for leadership, which was a and I spent I've spent a lot of time trying to build this, so this
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: isn't a crazy thing for me to say. Don't try to build consensus because
Jill: Mm.
Katrina: someone will always be unhappy.
Jill: That makes total sense, actually. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Katrina: It does. It does. You know, you know, and and I think that I think it that holds true in your house with three boys. Your
Jill: Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah.
Katrina: Organizations, teams, like we try to make everybody happy and then nobody's happy.
Jill: Yes. Yes. It's interesting because this is a just a a quick pivot and then I'll go back to what we're actually talking about. But when I teach decision making, we teach that there's four kind of decisions, and one of them is unanimous. And I kind of always said, and that don't do that. Like don't make a unanimous decision. And one of the things I say is people actually generally can handle hearing the decision that they don't like. What they can't handle is ambiguity. And when you get into this trying to make a consensus world, it's just ambiguo ambiguous because you can't get consensus. We're all humans. We all have different perspectives. And so interesting. So that ties right back in there. Okay. Okay.
Katrina: Yeah, I I was I really was pleased with that. And then the other book that I am reading is A Little More Social.
Jill: that's right. We talked about this. Okay. Tell us more.
Katrina: By Nicholas Epley. So so good. okay, we could end up spending like all of our time talking about this. And maybe we should just do a whole episode on this book.
Jill: Okay, that's actually not a bad idea at all.
Katrina: The basic idea is that we all need to make the small connections that we think about in our day-to-day life because
Jill: Mm.
Katrina: we are all human and we need each other and we are we when we act in this is this is such a hot button moment. when we act in an extroverted way, we actually increase our well being. Doesn't mean you have to be extroverted.
Jill: Yes.
Katrina: But that moment where you make a decision to reach out and have
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Katrina: the conversation or give the compliment actually improves your overall well-being. And when I read that in the fur the chapter that I I just finished, I was like, BS. But then
Jill: Ha ha ha. You're wrong, mister. You you probably researched this
Katrina: Ya that's exact yeah, like in my head and
Jill: for years, but you're wrong.
Katrina: And then the next sentence is, people often push back on this.
Jill: Well go sorry, go
Katrina: And then he proceeded to he proceeded to explain and give all the research behind it and so I'm sold. We need people. And when we extrovert a lot, we are exhausted because we're human.
Jill: Yes. Right. And we need time to recharge. And some people need a lot more time to recharge. And that's reasonable,
Katrina: Right.
Jill: totally. But it doesn't mean they
Katrina: Yeah.
Jill: don't need people. have you and I talked
Katrina: Right.
Jill: about the longest running study on well being and longevity?
Katrina: I think it has come up before. I mean, I'm aware of it. I think we could also just do a whole session on that as well, or whole episode. Or a session.
Jill: A session that's true, and maybe we should, but spoiler alert, it's connection. Connection with other people. Community is the the biggest indicator of life longevity beyond whether you smoke, whether you are overweight, whether you whatever, drink six gallons of whiskey a day. Which is probably not a good idea either, but
Katrina: Okay, six I don't know that they tested for six gallons. Just to be clear, we have to stay within the parameters of the study. I'm really well connected as I'm drinking
Jill: Can you tell I don't really drink?
Katrina: my six gallons of whiskey. That'll save me.
Jill: What does six gallons of whiskey even look like? Yeah, they probably didn't study that. That's a good call out. But
Katrina: There there's some point that cirrhosis will take you, even though you have hundreds of friends.
Jill: if you were drinking six gallons of whiskey, think how social you'd be. You'd be talking to all the people. Anyways, don't drink six gallons of whiskey. But To your point, that is, I mean, that connection, that human connection is the greatest indicator of living a long life. And to
Katrina: Yeah, absolutely.
Jill: your point, I think pe people do push back on that a lot. But I think
Katrina: Mm-hmm.
Jill: it's the kind of connection that you need, right? Not everybody needs to hold hands and in a circle and talk about their life traumas and thoughts. But
Katrina: Right. And then do a trust fall.
Jill: And do a trust fall all the while blindfolded. not, you know, that's a very small segment of people, but the ability to have somebody check in on you and like how was the doctor's appointment, or to be able to say hi to somebody as you're on a walk that there's just somebody there, it it really i fosters that sense of a community, even if they seem small and insignificant.
Katrina: Absolutely. And that's he he backs it up. He he shares that study and gave this really clear for me I idea of what happens in our brain. That we're either like we have like an approach and an avoid reaction, like these
Jill: Mm.
Katrina: two opposing you know things that happen in our brain. And so, you know, you see the person that this happens to me a lot. I love I I I notice people a lot and I love to give compliments. But you always have to
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: like gauge, right? So so the approach part of my brain is like tell them, you know, share that with them. And then the avoidance part of my brain is like, my gosh, what if they, what if they, right? And like you go through that whole list. and so those those competing parts are what often stop people from
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: from approaching. So I th I just really appreciated that clarity.
Jill: we should do a whole episode on this because we could finish this. I've got like 16 things I could say about this. but I'm gonna bring us back to reading. But I do think there is so much to be said about that. Because even some but like I consider myself an extrovert of all extroverts. And even I have to talk myself into going to social stuff sometimes. I mean because we're human and we get tired and and our brains are weird. And but it's good for us.
Katrina: It is good for us. I think, well, yeah, that we should do a whole episode on this because
Jill: Yeah, okay.
Katrina: you know, I'm immediately going to like the the parameters that I feel like I am putting on social situations for myself now so that I get what I need versus that yuck that can happen. But another episode.
Jill: Okay, so you're reading the Hopeful Climate Change book, the books that you only read at art galleries, the book about being social that you called bullshit, but then you actually came around. Okay, so those those three, anything else?
Katrina: And John of Johns by Douglas Stewart. he's a Scottish writer who lives in New York City, former Booker Prize winner and for Suggy Bane, and he just got long listed for this year's Booker Prize, and his writing is fabulous. And that's just my book for pleasure.
Jill: Okay. And so do you have parameters around when you read I mean, I heard the the two AM story, but when do you read John of John's versus the social book?
Katrina: So I read this okay, this is gonna sound I'll like I I have parameters.
Jill: I know you do, that's why I wanna know
Katrina: But I also read like a hundred books a year because of these parameters, right? And I enjoy those.
Jill: Yeah, huh, huh.
Katrina: It's not just like read through them. Okay.
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: So I tend to read for between five to fifteen minutes every morning. And that is
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: the social book or something in the nonfiction realm.
Jill: Okay. Okay.
Katrina: I read fiction at night before I go to bed for about
Jill: okay.
Katrina: Five to fifteen minutes, depending on the day and depending on energy. And then the Kendall book, which is is not always fiction, some or not always nonfiction, it's sometimes fiction. I read that about an hour every night at two AM. Almost every night. Yeah, almost.
Jill: Every night, pretty much every day you wake up at two a do you think that maybe you've trained your brain to now to wake up at two AM and read? That's another story. Okay, go ahead
Katrina: So here's the wild thing. That's another story. And that actually is a whole other story because I remember the 2 a.m. reading more than any of the other readings.
Jill: That is interesting. That is interesting. Okay.
Katrina: Yeah. Okay, so enough about me. Tell me what are your parameters?
Jill: so I am generally reading two books at a time, but I listen to one and I'm reading one with a physical copy. So I am a big audiobooks or books. I don't read to exercise my eyes, I
Katrina: Absolutely.
Jill: read to exercise my brain. And so I listen to nonfiction and I read fiction. So those are my parameters. And I listen to I walk almost every morning for 30 to 45 minutes, depending on what's going on. And that is my book time, my audiobook time. And I also will listen to audiobooks in my car sometimes, but oddly enough, it actually makes me sleepy, depending on the book. So I can't always do that. because I don't want to fall asleep on the freeway, you know, at 4 p.m. or something. You know, so sometimes I also
Katrina: I appreciate that.
Jill: need to listen to Missy Elliott and get me going and moving. so those are my parameters. And I tend to go in like patterns and so as far as like what kind of books I read. And so I was on this kick of like memoirs of like crazy things that have happened to people. Or that those sorts of stories, like that kind of story. and so that's what I was sort of on. and I just finished Busy Phillips memoir. She's a celebrity. It was fine, it was okay. And I started a new book, and I don't even know if I should say the name because cause where I'm going with this is I think I'm gonna not finish this book. because I'm just I it's okay. It's just not that great. And while I was trying to decide that, another book I had on hold came up because I'm very into the Libby app, which is a library app, and it is a book on the creation of the musical Hamilton. And I started listening to it and I immediately got into it. So all that to say, I'm curious. As far as you go, do you have rules for when you don't finish a book, when you keep reading? Like what's your parameters around that?
Katrina: I really have to finish every book.
Jill: You have to okay. I know there were people like that. I used to be one. Yes, okay.
Katrina: It causes me really great pain to not finish a book.
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: like I mean one, I'm hopeful, right? I'm like, please get better. Please get better.
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: Now, okay, there I do have one s one place that I will not finish. If I've open the book and
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Katrina: in the first three pages
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Katrina: the writing feels like I'm reading a third grade book that just like the style is bad, the grammar, like it's just I
Jill: Mm-hmm.
Katrina: will not go on.
Jill: Okay, s but but once you hit three pages, like you're in.
Katrina: I'm in. I
Jill: That's impressive.
Katrina: I I'm in, you know, they may sit for a while and then I'll go to something else and then I'll come back. And you know, so I have books I haven't finished, but my intention is always to finish. Yeah, there I
Jill: Okay. Okay. It's to finish them. Okay. Okay.
Katrina: and I read somewhere and I don't remember where. I'm gonna see if I can find this and then I'll I'll share.
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: so so tell me about what caused you to be a a a finisher and then
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: move to not finishing.
Jill: so interestingly enough, it was having kids. So I was a crazy big reader, all through elementary school, high school, college, right up until I had my first son. and I say son because I only have sons, so that's in my world, that's what kids are. so I really read very little. For like 10 years, between my first son and my last son. Truly, I mean, I probably read five books during that 10 years. And once I had my last son, there was something about I don't, I mean, I had three kids, it wasn't like I was had time on my hands, but there was something about the completion of like that part of my life where I was like, I want to start reading again. And so I I have every lit literally every book I've read since 2017. I record. I've had it recorded. And that's when my little guy was like, you know, he was like six months old. But when I picked reading back up, I very quickly was like, no. Like, uh-uh. If it doesn't catch me, like I can't. I I don't got time for I don't got time for a bad book. So that is what when it was. And I do try to stay with them. Like, I I love Sometimes a book does surprise me, right? in fact I just read one that surprised me and and if I would have given up, I would have not gotten the great book. But there are some books I'm just like I can't. Like I just can't stick with
Katrina: Yeah.
Jill: it. And there's so many books I wanna read, so I gotta move on to those.
Katrina: That is really like what makes me try to change. And and I found the rule of thumb. My my dear friend Ann Janser, I believe, who writes books on writing, who is who is actually my friend. Right, right. Yeah, she's definitely,
Jill: Okay. That you have a whole shelf of okay.
Katrina: where is it? The that shelf. That shelf. it's
Jill: So over there on my yeah, huh?
Katrina: that, yeah, it's that shelf. She wrote about this, and then I've seen it come up a couple of other places. So librarian Nancy Pearl
Jill: Okay.
Katrina: gives the the strategy that called 100 minus your age. So so take your take 100, subtract your age, and that's how many pages you should read before you give up. Yeah. Yeah. So my number's slower than that.
Jill: Okay. Okay. Okay, so 54. Okay, 54 pages. Okay. Okay. That's I would say that's pretty accurate. I would say that's about when I give up. I mean, I do think maybe it's like in the thirties or forties, but it's somewhere around there.
Katrina: Okay.
Jill: but if I'm too far gone, I'm too far gone. I'll just stick with it because what I do love is to be able to cross things off of a list. And I can't
Katrina: me too.
Jill: write it and put a check next to it if I didn't finish it. So I will if I'm in deep, I'll I'll see it through. But if it doesn't catch me in those first few pages, I can't I can't hang. I can't hang. Yeah.
Katrina: Yeah. Yeah.
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: Yeah. I do have one book that I got about halfway through. And I literally just went, this is stupid. I don't believe you. I think this is all
Jill: Ha ha ha
Katrina: made up. I think you are ridiculous. I think you tell big stories and that have no relevance. And I didn't even I
Jill: Right
Katrina: didn't even give the book. To goodwill or thrift it, I threw it in the recycle bin.
Jill: snap I don't think I've ever done that. my goodness. Whew.
Katrina: Yeah, I have. And that was before
Jill: You wrote a book?
Katrina: He became popular.
Jill: boy.
Katrina: I'll just leave it at that. It'll be a mystery.
Jill: You're not gonna tell us. Okay.
Katrina: He's in political power.
Jill: I know what book you're talking about. I know exactly what book you're talking about. Okay. I I read that as well. Yep. Interesting. Okay.
Katrina: Farthest I've ever gotten in a book and decided like, nope, wasting my time.
Jill: Okay. I just read, that's yes, okay. I just read, and we're already at 30 minutes. See, this is this goes they go so fast. I know. the book I was talking about that I almost gave up on, and I'm glad I didn't, was called Winter Dance by Gary Paulson. So Gary Paulson wrote
Katrina: Hmm.
Jill: Hatchet, I think. Like he's a young adult author. and so he wrote, or maybe not even young adult, I don't know. He wrote this book called Winter Dance, and it's the story of him deciding he wanted to do the Edideron. And it starts In a weird place. And it gets at first I was like, mm-hmm, okay, carry on, carry on. But I had read something that said it was really good. And so I was like, all right, I'm gonna stick with it. But it really was like 45 minutes into it until I was like, okay, this is really good. And it turned out to be great and like super into it. But I I almost gave up and I would have missed out. So, you know, there you go.
Katrina: There you go. There you go.
Jill: Yeah, yeah. But it's a good book.
Katrina: So we could so easily talk about audiobooks. because because now not only do you have a writing issue, you have a narration, narrator
Jill: yeah. Mm-hmm.
Katrina: issue and there are a lot of things that make an audiobook a good audiobook. that I think yeah.
Jill: Yeah. Yeah. And that's true. I have definitely stopped audiobooks because I couldn't handle the voice. But that is usually within I mean truly within the first five minutes. It's like, I just know I'm not gonna let it listen to eight hours of this. but you're right, it's a whole different it's a whole different thing. And I've heard that people don't like when the authors read their own books, but I actually love that.
Katrina: I think it's a pens. I I think memoirs I I prefer if the author reads it. Nonfiction
Jill: Okay, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Katrina: or like a or like just regular fiction non-memoir, then like maybe get somebody good.
Jill: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the last thing I will say before I close us out is you and I had talked about I just yesterday finished the book The Hundred Lives of or The Hundred Years of Lenny and Margot. and it was very sweet and a little bit heartbreaking. But if anybody is interested in a good fiction recommendation, The Hundred Years of Lenny and Margot by Marianne Cronin was a really good book and Katrina read it as well a bit ago. But it might make you it doesn't make me cry because I don't have a lot of feelings, but it will probably make most people cry at least a little bit. Because it's it's kind of a sad.
Katrina: Because you you have no tears.
Jill: That's we could do a whole other episode on that. I don't think I've ever cried in a book. I I I don't I know, I know, and I know there are people who think I am a broken human. It's not to say I never cry, but I don't know that I've ever cried over a book. It's just it doesn't hit me that way. I don't know. Okay, thank you. I appreciate that.
Katrina: What I wouldn't judge you for that, but but I have had some really, really like meaningful cries over books.
Jill: I think most people have. Yeah, I don't know why that is.
Katrina: Yeah.
Jill: anyways, that's might be another story. Okay, we are at the end of our time. Ten more episodes.
Katrina: I think we've like created ten more episodes out of this episode.
Jill: I agree. And I feel like we could probably talk about books for another three hours and make this like a four-hour podcast. but before we go, any final book thoughts.
Katrina: my thought is just read, read, read, read. And
Jill: Yeah. Freed. Freed.
Katrina: I don't even think it matters what you read. You know, we talk
Jill: it doesn't.
Katrina: about a lot of like memoirs and environmental and this and that, but I think just the act of reading, just stopping, pausing, using that critical thinking, I I think it's so easily can be a lost art. But we know to bring it back to leadership, we know that the best leaders are also readers.
Jill: They are. Hey, and that rhymes. Leaders and readers. And there we go. We could probably combine a word from that and create our word of the day. La readers. We're leaders. And there we go.
Katrina: And sudden slippily slip
Jill: All right, we'll close on that. Go be a re leader and read a book.
Katrina: It's time, Jill, for your leadership moment. So from this episode,
Jill: Yeah.
Katrina: what is it?
Jill: So I'm gonna this is hard for me not to get on my soapbox here. So I'm gonna try to stay off of my soapbox when I do this leadership moment. But I firmly believe to be a leader, you gotta be a reader. As kind of silly as that seems. I think when we read, we get new perspectives. I don't even care what you read. I don't think it has to be business books. I think you can listen to audiobooks, I think you can read, I think you can look at graphic novels. In my opinion, it doesn't matter what, but I do think to grow as humans, reading is crucial. And I think it's it's imperative that leaders are reading. There's learning about different perspectives. And I really just want everybody to be a reader, Katrina. I want everybody to be a reader. That's my leadership moment of the day.
Katrina: Thanks, Jill.
Jill: Alright, thanks everybody. Go read now.
