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Before we do a sweet intro, I want to do an even sweeter intro and I would love to hear about Trash's snack of the day
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But before we do that Trash, I think you've been prompting a little too much because I think I just caught you prompting right now
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Right before this they get it to a slack message at work, okay?
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What the dude you were spawned manually to slack messages
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1987 calls
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I just realized I'm the only one in this group that has a real job
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But us real people
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Dude, okay, I'm not gonna let you guys when people say that to me on Twitter
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It does that that's how you can one guy me pretty good is saying that I'm just like mold
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Oh
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XOR posted the one of the guys who does shaders like you know this cool. Yeah, XOR is extra dev shout out
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XOR dev
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I and and he posted a poll that that was like how how is is it making your job more or less competitive?
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I think was he was asking
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So I was like where's the option for don't have real job don't know and you know
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So I'm okay with it. I you can't one guy me that way. I did you sense it about this prime
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It yeah, I am obviously I'm triggered. Okay, just let it go
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It's fair. I mean it's a ton of work doing like content stuff so much work that like it's more work than most normal jobs
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So like I don't know why people wouldn't think it's a job
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But well the thing that that thing that works me the most is that I internally put on timelines on myself
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And I try to build as much as possible so I'm not like a dummy when it comes to programming
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Yeah, and so you know, I'm learning I'm learning Odin right now having a great time. It's just like
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There's I know there's just like a couple things that get me and that's just one of those just I don't know why I got to let it go
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Fortunately, you only told us prime and not anybody else
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So that's not everyone's really gonna bring this up every day. Here's the thing though
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I'm sorry your program. You're learning to do what I never heard. I don't know what you're talking about. I
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Don't ever see an article about that in any that's not a lot of publication Odin
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I'm sorry. I like is that that's like some god. I think I looked it up
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I'm actually trying to figure out this whole God situation. Okay, so I'm starting with Odin. You know the Norse fruits
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Yeah, quick point of contention. Does that make Odin the Norse god a notable character is in our is Wikipedia saying he's real like can't
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Odin the language be a fictitious programming language created out of thin air by ginger bill right?
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I don't know. I just need to know if wired magazine has ever talked about the the Norse god Odin if they have then I'm told that he
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Probably exists. That's what I would say anyway. Believe it
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And he's probably and he's probably notable that right? I would assume he's notable. Yeah
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If some wired magazine author talked about their their imaginary friend when they were 12 then that's notable because hey
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They wrote it in wired magazine
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Man the power that's
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Why are they going to circle back really quick on the real job thing that trash brought up
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I was just saying trash if you want we can help you join the rest of us
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Yeah, that's true and I also would like to throw out there trash is the only person with a real job
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Why are you here during the work day? Yeah, that is a good good question T.J. I you're trying to make me join you
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What's your what's your current slack status? I just want to know what is your current status is it green?
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This is the worst I hate when we bring up my truck
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It says out of office until 11 30
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Thank you
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So 30 is for the podcast that's every day
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podcast
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I make up for this time though. I make sure I work extra hard for an hour and a half
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Don't worry trash the recording is going they they know it's happening. Yeah, I hate the trash
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Everyone I know is apparently when you show up in office they're like yo, it's trash from the standout
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Hey, is that HTTP get that out of here?
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That's that how we order coffee we order coffee by a SSH terminal dot shop. Yeah, you want a real experience
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You want real coffee you want awesome subscriptions, so you never have to remember again
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Oh, you want exclusive blends with exclusive coffee and exclusive content then check out cron you don't know what SSH is
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Well, maybe the coffee is not for you
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Not myself conscious
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I'm gonna work so hard today. Okay. Oh, you're gonna problem. It's so good. You're gonna open up
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Oh, I got kick off an agent. So I don't feel so bad about being yeah, yeah, kick one off
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All right, Tratch, what's the snack of the day? You got to give us a little bit of the snack of the day. This is my blocker right now
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I have these giggles which are like a healthy version of skittles
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No thing and then you have to go healthy because you wait too many snacks
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Well, my wife is like very much into like anti-food dye stuff
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So this is like the candy you can get that doesn't have like the food dyes and my daughter's like allergic to some of that stuff
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So we're very okay, we're very like I'll learn about that and then we have these like Easter candy things
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Some and these gummies
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He has risen. Yes, and then I got or choose because I want to get breakfast right before this
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I just got here right on time. I got a quick workout in got my quick pump
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Eat a pancake and then spit on home. Do you eat any
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non-carbohydrate foods
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I don't know I can try not to yes
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You eat
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I'm like a big steak guy. Okay, so you do we oh by the way, we do need an update. This is true trash
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The receipts how are they going? How's your wife doing? What what kind of things have you been?
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It's really funny that you bring that up. It sounds like it. I use it specific. I use it for myself
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I use it for myself now
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So I could just like tell my wife what I'm doing the laundry
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And so I have a huge list of just laundry so then whenever something comes up
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I'm just going to pop it out. I don't know. So you have a laundry list
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Literally, especially what you made was a self promotion a household self promotion
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I have converted it to making me look good. Yep. That's smart trash. That's smart
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And I'm not bringing it up. I'm not bringing it up. It's just when something happens. I'm gonna be like check this out
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Check out all this laundry I did hit the scroll and then scroll all the way baby
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So that's how I've been doing it. She has a bunch on me actually, which is not a good thing. But it's okay
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All right, all right. It's okay. What about on your side? Are you still getting receded? Okay
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Trash I went to the truth. I went to my wife and we talked about it
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And she said I'm not going to use receipts because it's too toxic
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I'm so shy as woman
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Wait a second though. Wait a second
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Should I destroy prime that to me sounds like
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Trash just needs to work on the PR because that to me sounds like a reluctant
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I'm not going to use it like I wanted to use this to document
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Oh the crap that you're doing prime
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But I don't want to do it because it sounds a little too bad. So if if like if Trash changes the messaging to like
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Help your husband become a better
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Right come along side
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On his journey to adulthood
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Trash just needs PR he needs a PR we need to spin this for him and then this thing has go into the moon man
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I've already moved on to my next
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unethical thing
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I started building a bot army so I can get Pokemon cards
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I've been working on it
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It's actually so complicated
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I love that you're building this trash because you're building it for good purposes so that you can actually just get
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Pokemon's yourself without getting into a fist fight at a machine
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The good guy, but don't you become the bad guy once you're using a bot army?
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Well, I'm not making like a so like typically these boss people
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I can't even make that many because there's like a lot of complicated reasons
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But I'm just gonna make a handful just to like up my chances slightly
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It's not gonna actually trash. I have a MacBook mini. I will let you I will let you use it if you want to use it until you can get at least
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I will use it trash
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You write stuff that gets deployed on every Netflix computer right
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Dude try to be heard a spinnaker
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There's this like Nintendo has to shut off like all of Netflix's ip's because all of a sudden
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It's just like this massive like Pokemon buying spree
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Just wait till this wall gets super high. That's when you're gonna know my bots working is working. Yep. All right
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That's what you know. Can is there any possibility we could intro? We could actually start
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Welcome to the stand-up today. We have an extremely special episode for everybody that's washing the stand-up for those that don't know
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This is the world's most attended stand-up
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Congratulations everyone for being a part of it. I hope everybody has their blockers. They're ready
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Yep, thank you. Thank you
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Still up paid still up paid the interns are always unpaid
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But you guys the things is that I love you with the love of a CEO. Okay. I just want you to know that right now
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I was talking about valuable work experience that someday could land you a paying job right
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Someday you guys will get paid
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Just not here
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So don't get some coffee. Yeah, go give me some coffee. All right now today are very special episode
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It has to do Casey. I was absolutely fascinated with some of the tweets you were making because windows 11
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Actually, well to be fair. We got to back this up a little bit about a couple of months ago
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Satya released a note of intent saying that windows
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Here's you we are going to win back the consumer is exactly what he said and the first major patch since that announcement
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Just came out and that exact patch contained a new and improved windows run dialogue
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And so this is a part of their major push to make performance more top of mind at least that is what windows 11
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Explicitly said and as part of their announcement they said
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This is the fastest that the run dialogue has ever been ever
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Evie are like this is the best it has ever been
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Here we go and they
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Announced it and it takes approximately 90 milliseconds to show on screen on the median
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So the 50 percentile so we don't know what we don't know what like the 25th percentile
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We don't know the quartiles here. So we have no idea what's going on
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But we do know that the median is 90 approximately 90 milliseconds
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It was 94 I think might have been what they said yeah, I don't know how they measure that that seems really impressive considering most displays don't
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You know, they're usually locked to some number that probably doesn't land on 94 every time
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I don't exactly know how they're measuring that but nonetheless
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That's what they're saying
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Absolutely impressed with this performance, but then Casey you did a little bit of snooping
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I did so I actually didn't uh, so I
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I really didn't I didn't care because like I said, I don't use windows really like any more week
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We kind of we kind of nixed that
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Uh pun intended and uh, so like I'm just like it's a it's kind of just a like all right you guys you know
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You can do your rodeo now or you decide to try and make windows performing or whatever. That's fine
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um, but
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What I was gonna say is
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Originally, I only saw this because Tim Swini was commenting on it
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I think he was said something snide like you know, it's he said it was 94 milliseconds for this you know
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Performance top of mind rewrite. It's like a gaming monitor is like you know eight milliseconds to refresh a frame like what's go
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You know what's going on
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Um, and so the only thing I really did was just retreat. I'm like okay
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Popping up the run dialogue like is is like a drop to 10 fps right
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Because that's what you know, it's like 11 fps. I think would be if you rounded 94 milliseconds
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It'd be like it'd be you know be like 10.6
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Frames a second or something if that's was your run rate
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And nobody cared about the run dialogue for the most part
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Pretty much people just cared about the fact that I used it fps as a way to like explain what the number was
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Now remind you I'm not posting anything original here at all
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I literally just like here is the screenshot of the thing that Tim Swini posted
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Or was replying to rather um, and I'm just like and I highlighted it and I was like they were like perftop of mind 94 milliseconds
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and I was like
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Geez like that'd be really split like 94 milliseconds is is a long time
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Especially because like when you think about what the run dialogue is
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It's not really like it's it's a user interface interaction. Well you hold on right there Casey
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There's processes that they have to create well, I don't know what a process is but apparently it takes 90 milliseconds
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Yeah, so this was this was the thing um, where they were like
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Uh, a lot of people just had a problem with this and a lot of people's probably the wrong term like most
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You know, it was a very popular tweet actually so I suppose most people didn't have a problem with what I said um
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But for the people who did have a problem with that there were two things one is they were like well this is like you know
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Loading it's like how long so it takes to load
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Which to me is ridiculous because it's like no it's like a text box and maybe some history
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There's no there shouldn't be any loading like this should just be
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It's a trivial it's you're talking about like 4k or something of data that should be required to do this thing
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Like it's so minimal that you there's no question you shouldn't be launching your process for this in my mind right
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Maybe if you have some kind of weird process isolation thing going on because you're scared that someone's hacking your run dialogue
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But then at that point we should talk about why that's happening exactly and other things like that
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But you know there's a whole sort of thing so you could come back with some blog post where you explained like
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Here's why it has to be a process and maybe I'd be like okay
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But in general no like that should not be if the user doesn't perceive them to be loading something
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Then that's not really acceptable excuse a so I didn't think anyone who replied with that
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I don't think they have any leg to stand on so sorry like I just completely disagree with you. This is not a load operation
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But that was relatively minor that was I felt like that was just as you as you folks say and as the kids say that was just
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Cope that was just like trying to come up with another 94 was some cope
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Yeah, um a little bit of cope and also launching notes so you can use react that's all
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The bigger the bigger thing was um
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Was they didn't like the use of fps?
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I and this to me is like I can
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If you if you don't want to use fps as a way to like talk about how things
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Feel and how long they take right
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That's totally valid in my opinion meaning I would never go to somebody who quoted milliseconds and say whoa whoa
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Sun you should be saying fps
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I wouldn't do this house
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In this house we measure with fps exactly like I would never I would never do that
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If I did that to somebody and they were like dude
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I quote these things in milliseconds. That's how I do it. I'd be like ah sorry like I was yeah
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I was mean to dick. I shouldn't have done that or whatever right like that
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I would feel bad about that if I did that right
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Not so with these people these super like
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You cannot quote fps numbers unless apparently
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Um because some there's some like internet committee that like must have decided this
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fps has to be average fps. Yes, it's it is it's so casey you may not know this but if in a video game in a video game
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If you fire a gun, but you only fire it once
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It takes 90 milliseconds. That's just part of that's just hey that's just loading
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It only counts if you repetitively fire it
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And again like people were mad though casey because the run
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Thing is kind of like you know anthropic sort of started the trend everything's a game engine casey
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Well, so it's like they were
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So I don't know it's not a fair fps measure okay
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All I'm saying is so it what I would say is
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If that's the way you want to quote things that's totally fine because I like having both
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My preference is to see both so I like to see the
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milliseconds and then I like to convert that to fps in my head so I can see like if I was hitting monitor refresh because the way that I usually like to program
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Anything that's like a user interaction is I like to hit monitor refresh for like what I expect the target monitor refresh to be
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So if someone pushes a button then like from the time that that button comes in
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I want to try on the frame that it came in
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I want to try to have the response to it on the frame that's submitted at that time right
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So you push a button on one frame and the next frame that you see as quote like should have it now sometimes
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It's two frames because like there's a compositor in the way
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Sometimes it's more if the tv sucks and it's buffering a lot so it's like there's reasons why that can start to multiply out
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But the way I like to think of it is like okay at least for the code
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Like you know for telemetry which I assume is where this number is coming from if you timed from like when the the event happens and when someone actually got a frame
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I want to see something close to monitor refresh or twice monitor refresh depending on what you're counting there right
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um
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And so this is actually legitimate the way I think about it like like like that was not I think people were saying or were
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trying to
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Impune to me the fact that I was trying to make it sound worse than it is by using fps
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And I guess what I would say is that is like no ant or yes and no
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I I do think of it that way and yes
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I suppose the reason I use that number is because I actually believe it's bad like when you're not getting monitor refresh that
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I think you did something wrong probably right
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It's like especially if it's just I'm popping up a text box or some UI thing
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I just think you did something wrong you should you should be it monitor refresh just period
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And if you don't agree with that that's fine like you can just be like no
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I like my things to be more more laggy than that um
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You can totally make an argument that uh you just don't care
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You're like look a hundred milliseconds is what I think is reasonable for response to UI. So that's what I do
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Uh totally fine too
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But like claiming that fps is a bad way to do it. I totally disagree
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I think fps is a very good way for someone to have in their head like oh am I close to monitor refresh like I know
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I should be hitting 60 it's just a good like metric to have and if you want me to convert that so I always say 16.6666666666666666667
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Instead six I suppose I can say that for you did did that help if I change it from fps to hurts what like I mean
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Well cycles per second presumably they'd say again it has to be average for some reason
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I don't know why those are not intrinsic to the measurement frames per second
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Just means you took account of frames and you divided by a time right and it does not imply that there was
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Any more than even one actually
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Technically, you probably need to have two to measure something between but like you know
253
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So anyway, I found all of that ridiculous and
254
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Very disheartening because it's just I I was like this is ridiculous
255
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All of that all of this for something that as far as I can tell isn't actually relevant anyway like because
256
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Uh for a couple reasons
257
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But here's the first one
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They said in that same post that the original run dialogue experience was 104 milliseconds
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And the thing they were really yeah was 94 milliseconds. That's what they said in the post right no
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No, no, not not not not that post right. I thought it was 400 milliseconds. I can't be real
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No, it was in them in the blog post that I saw I think it was 104 from on microsoft blog
262
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They were like the original one was 104 this one's like 94 or something like that or 98 or I don't like I don't know the exact numbers
263
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But they were both very close to 100 like one was less than 110 the other was less than 100 right so between 90 and 100
264
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I remember half of the measurements are above 100 or above 94 to remember that's just the median
265
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Well, sorry. Yeah, well, I'm just saying
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So um, I was curious about that because I was like I don't know how they're measuring it right because there's different ways you can measure it
267
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If you're if you're talking about like a latency chain
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Where you press a physical button and then see something
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It's pretty easy to get a response time to go up to something like a hundred milliseconds
270
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If you have slow mouse slow USB processing the operating systems a little slow your code is a little slow
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The monitor buffer several or the GPU is buffering several frames the monitors buffering some more frames
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I could construct a situation where some code that responded potentially like like my little piece
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Of code that responds
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Instantly still is taking a hundred milliseconds because everyone else in the chain is screwing me right
275
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This is a thing that people who have ever measured latency with like a camera
276
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No, you can easily start to beef that up right yeah, or you've ever actually played a game on a TV set to non gaming mode
277
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And all of a sudden you can you can feel it when you're playing Mario. You're like oh, what is happening?
278
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Am I I can't jump anymore? That's why I'm loses in games. That's actually why I've been on TV mode
279
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I didn't know that I've been on TV mode. I didn't know that. That's why I lost a fortnight
280
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Yeah, we used to watch a lot of TVs
281
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Yeah, when he used to do that doc when he used to be doc dr. Disrespect and do that channel
282
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He had to stop playing competitive games and treat create this primogen thing specifically because of this you know
283
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Teed he had a TV that was buffering too many frames. He couldn't win anymore
284
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There's Call of Duty career went down the toilet and here we are on the standup
285
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But that's ancient history now no sense dwelling on the past the point is
286
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Um, so I don't know where they get this number
287
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Right. I don't think Casey knows. We'll just keep on going
288
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He let's just say hit the end of his career as a oh, yeah, no, it was not that no
289
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Yeah, yeah, it was let's say that it
290
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Anyways drive
291
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It was not minecraft, but anyway, um, the point is
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Uh, when we uh look at these kind of numbers. Who knows how they're measured right like nobody knows right
293
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Um, because they weren't discussed
294
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So we know that they were statistical meaning they said it was like a median so meaning
295
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We we know that they were talking cross a number of machines right
296
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Uh, a number of configurations probably meaning it's telemetry meaning it probably comes from end user machines
297
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But it's hard to say because again, I don't I don't know exactly what their setup is for doing this
298
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But I was curious about that because I was like, you know that sounds really high actually from my recollection of the run dialogue
299
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I was like I don't think it takes a hundred and four milliseconds
300
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From end of click to showing the run dialogue
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On unlike windows 10 for example
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That by the way, this is a very important part because remember the post said this is the fastest
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ever
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Right which it may well be as to mean forever. It does mean forever, which is right which is uh, which good point is what I'm trying to get to
305
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So the part that confused me was I was like where did that number come from so like on the on windows 10
306
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I tried testing the existing run dialogue which obviously is not the updated one
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And I did a 60 hertz capture now. I know that 60 hertz will make people very uncomfortable
308
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So what I mean to say is a capture where the frames were capped to 16.66666666667 milliseconds
309
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How many cases is that in uh Deca frames per hour? That's my concern
310
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That's the only unit that I prefer discussing so just
311
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What is the 60 in 60 is a per an hour um, I don't know
312
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So uh, so I captured it and captured a bunch of me
313
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Running their you know doing the run dialogue and just to see what it was and it always responded in two frames
314
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Which would be you know somewhere in the 30 millisecond range depending on
315
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Again, if you were trying to include mouse clicks or something. I don't know
316
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But assuming you were doing telemetry from a machine then you can't do that because you don't have a high-speed camera sitting on it
317
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So I'm assuming they're recording something like that and so I don't so I don't know now
318
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So if they're using um that number 104 as a median
319
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Well, I tested this on a machine that's a decade old. It's nine years old, right? So it's a very old machine
320
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What are they testing across such that they're able to get a number that's three times higher than that as the median right?
321
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I don't know and since I don't know now. I have no idea what's going on
322
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So I don't know where the 100 millisecond number goes
323
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A comes from but the reason I say this might just be much to do about nothing
324
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is because
325
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If that number is similarly inflated and the 94 is similarly inflated the actual number for a response time might be much better
326
00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:10.760
It might be that number divided by three which would again be two frames, which is fine right?
327
00:26:11.800 --> 00:26:15.640
Um much much better than the uh, you know
328
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:20.600
drastically increased three times latency one that it sounded like it was going to be which everyone
329
00:26:20.600 --> 00:26:23.000
I think would have been correct kind of freak out about because like
330
00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:28.440
They're all used in experience where it's one or two frames to pop up that run dialog and now it's taking three times longer
331
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That would be annoying
332
00:26:30.520 --> 00:26:35.160
So I I really don't know what's going on here. I feel like they needed to um
333
00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:41.080
If they were going to make a post about performance and they didn't want people to comment on it
334
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:45.080
They needed to put more information in there that would be clearer about what's going on
335
00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:53.400
And also blaming people for having a reaction to this especially when they just quote the like they just put a quote and be like
336
00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:59.400
I think what I said is am I reading this right? That's what I said to get really mad at someone who said am I reading this right?
337
00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:03.720
This sounds really slow is ridiculous like that's what makes x so crap
338
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.440
the only response to that should be
339
00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:13.400
Uh, either yes, you're reading it right. This is kind of slow for popping up a run dialog because that shouldn't really be any work or
340
00:27:14.120 --> 00:27:16.120
Yes, you were reading it wrong
341
00:27:16.360 --> 00:27:24.360
Actually that hundred milliseconds is this really bad way we measure it where we measure it from the start of the click to when we show it
342
00:27:24.600 --> 00:27:27.880
And since we can't launch to the person releases the mouse button
343
00:27:28.120 --> 00:27:32.040
That's an extra 50 milliseconds that's just padded on there right like
344
00:27:33.080 --> 00:27:40.760
That is the answer to this not some snide like you can't use epi like it's just it was garbage like I really didn't like the responses that I felt like they were
345
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:45.000
Ridiculous and so like I'm pretty I'm pretty thumbs down on what people said
346
00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:49.960
That is my annoyance with it the happy news though is I think I think
347
00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:56.440
Uh, what's going to happen is the run dialog will probably be fine um, I can't say for sure
348
00:27:56.840 --> 00:28:03.800
But I think these numbers are not like they're not measuring either what we think we're they're measuring or they somewhere in
349
00:28:04.600 --> 00:28:07.000
Their test suite have 10,000
350
00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:16.920
Really old buggy laptops that take an extra 70 milliseconds to do this operation and they're skewing the median or something right like like some explanation like that
351
00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:19.080
So until we get more information
352
00:28:19.080 --> 00:28:25.320
I think this is just a dead issue except for the fact that people out there who think fps isn't a good way to intuit response times
353
00:28:25.320 --> 00:28:26.840
I think you're totally wrong
354
00:28:26.840 --> 00:28:32.040
I they're okay. I got to jump in case he's so there is something about all of this that you're really missing
355
00:28:32.040 --> 00:28:35.960
And I would just like to I would love to hear trash is a pinion on this one which is
356
00:28:36.600 --> 00:28:42.360
Trash you've worked at Netflix now since the great fall like trash joined and Netflix dropped by 60%
357
00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:44.680
Uh effectively is what happened
358
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:48.920
That was 70% anyways, they heard that he was coming
359
00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:55.320
Yeah, they heard that he was coming he joins the company Netflix went from 690 to 170 or something like that
360
00:28:55.320 --> 00:28:58.120
It was a direct is a disastrous moment for us
361
00:28:59.080 --> 00:29:03.160
Anyway, so you have like a bunch of like stock from when you work there that track was treated trash
362
00:29:03.800 --> 00:29:07.880
I did everybody a friend your retirement even everybody a favor. He helped
363
00:29:09.560 --> 00:29:11.960
To people for a decade, so thank you trash for that everybody
364
00:29:12.600 --> 00:29:13.800
Trash
365
00:29:13.800 --> 00:29:19.800
Everyone give trash a clap. This is why he's still at Netflix. Get those options down so they can go back up
366
00:29:20.120 --> 00:29:27.000
Yes, exactly. There you go. Casey Stonkin right there. Anyway, so we've been at like you've worked on a product that's sensitive to
367
00:29:28.120 --> 00:29:33.000
Any sort of code right because the TV platform is just it's a very hard platform
368
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:34.920
It's a much slower platform than everything else
369
00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:42.760
Now trash have you ever once heard anybody at all in any point in life ever talk about response times in frames
370
00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:45.240
No
371
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:49.320
Yeah, Casey, so this is something that you might not know but in the web world
372
00:29:50.280 --> 00:29:56.760
Nobody has ever once thought of something in terms of frames. I don't think I like this is a whole novel concept of you being like
373
00:29:58.760 --> 00:30:02.920
Next monitor refresh rate something to happen like no one's ever said that ever
374
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:10.760
That would that would explain the disconnect probably because to me, so I like obviously I was
375
00:30:12.120 --> 00:30:15.720
Raised I don't know if that's the correct term to catch on fire
376
00:30:16.280 --> 00:30:19.480
um, so I was raised in the era of
377
00:30:20.040 --> 00:30:26.200
During the Thanksgiving Blank. Yeah, R.A. Z. Ed. Yeah, it was good for I'm nice vocabulary buddy
378
00:30:26.520 --> 00:30:29.000
Okay, Casey continue on with things something smart. Please
379
00:30:29.800 --> 00:30:31.800
It's not smart. It's historical
380
00:30:32.760 --> 00:30:36.280
What you normally would do right is you try to have it so that you know
381
00:30:36.280 --> 00:30:41.000
You update your stuff during the vertical blank of like a CRT right it like the scan line comes down
382
00:30:41.080 --> 00:30:45.400
You update your stuff and you come back around to the top and you need to have everything done in that time
383
00:30:45.560 --> 00:30:51.560
Like for the next right so you're always I mean the the phrase racing the beam like made it into the title of a book
384
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:53.720
I think right and that's what that
385
00:30:53.800 --> 00:31:02.040
Was referring to you're racing the beam the like the the actual like CRT like display beam right that the thing that excites the phosphorus on the screen
386
00:31:02.760 --> 00:31:07.320
um of a cathode rate tube right and then went from there to like
387
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:10.040
I
388
00:31:10.040 --> 00:31:17.240
In sort of like the Carmack era of gaming like when like the quake engine kind of ushered in 3d and these sort of stuff in in a big way
389
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:20.040
um
390
00:31:20.040 --> 00:31:26.120
At that point like I believe he had a thing and I don't remember if this was like something that he said
391
00:31:27.080 --> 00:31:31.560
In like person that I remember him saying or whether it was something that he posted in like a plan file
392
00:31:32.360 --> 00:31:34.680
Um, but I remember him being like look
393
00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:37.400
If you structure your
394
00:31:38.040 --> 00:31:40.040
Update loop in one way
395
00:31:40.280 --> 00:31:47.000
Where you like do your rendering is where you issue your rendering you you update the world do issue rendering and then process input
396
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:49.400
um
397
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:53.640
You lose a little bit of time because some of the input maybe you could have gotten
398
00:31:54.280 --> 00:31:59.240
A little bit before like just before you were about to submit the the render or something like like there was a thing
399
00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:04.040
Where he was talking about that and I was I was like oh, okay. Yeah, I probably should always be very
400
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:06.440
thoughtful of like
401
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:15.000
How can I make sure I get input as close as possible to submission so that I'm introducing the least like the little smallest amount
402
00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:17.400
of latency
403
00:32:17.560 --> 00:32:23.560
Uh, especially if you have something like a v-sync on where you're going to like if you like processed input and then waited on v-sync
404
00:32:24.040 --> 00:32:27.320
Then came around and did your render now. There's an even bigger gap between those things right
405
00:32:28.360 --> 00:32:32.520
And so uh, I've always I'm always used to think of it is it frames
406
00:32:32.520 --> 00:32:36.760
So input comes in on a frame you should see it on the next frame as close as I can make it
407
00:32:36.760 --> 00:32:40.920
I don't want to be the weak link in that chain. I want it to be the TV that screwing you not me
408
00:32:41.560 --> 00:32:43.080
So I've always thought of it that way
409
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:49.080
So I always think of it as fps and especially nowadays when like you know when I do ping times
410
00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:53.480
On like the network here even on this crappy comcast connection that I'm on
411
00:32:54.120 --> 00:32:59.240
um most uh network on modern broadband internet the actual ping time
412
00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:01.880
Out from the person
413
00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:06.120
Uh to like a local to something that's close to them is actually sub monitor refresh
414
00:33:06.520 --> 00:33:09.720
Like you can actually get a network packet to someone and back
415
00:33:10.520 --> 00:33:14.840
In less time than like a 60 hertz refresh. That's how good this stuff has gotten
416
00:33:14.840 --> 00:33:21.000
You know people on fiber are getting sub one millisecond ping times to things like the nearest google node, right
417
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:22.360
It's incredible
418
00:33:22.360 --> 00:33:28.280
And so nowadays I just think everything should be thought that way like it's just it's just look the fastest we can
419
00:33:28.600 --> 00:33:33.960
The reason to do it in frames that's the fastest we can get something out to the user like what's the lowest
420
00:33:34.760 --> 00:33:41.160
Uh amount of time this monitor can hit that's what we should be shooting for and sometimes it's unrealistic because it's like okay
421
00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:43.720
They're on like some foot north of 500
422
00:33:44.520 --> 00:33:46.040
Hertz monitor
423
00:33:46.040 --> 00:33:51.560
The operation we're doing is to heavyweight so we got to set a more conservative frame target totally fine
424
00:33:52.120 --> 00:33:58.120
But I I never think of it in terms of anything other than that because that's our limit. That's what I can give you the frames at
425
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.440
Yeah
426
00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:05.960
Yeah, I mean, they do in the even in the world where we do think about a ps especially for like
427
00:34:06.520 --> 00:34:09.880
animated heavy websites when you notice we see like jank it's like stuttering
428
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:13.320
That's typically when we'll actually take into account like fps
429
00:34:13.560 --> 00:34:15.320
But yeah, honestly most apps like
430
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:18.120
Aren't really doing any animations. It's all just async
431
00:34:18.600 --> 00:34:25.640
Crud apps just waiting for something right? So it's a more of how long this take to load which we'll use time like most seconds
432
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:27.960
Verse
433
00:34:30.120 --> 00:34:35.240
I think ttfb is that what I'm hearing a little bit of that a little bit of time the first bite a little bit at
434
00:34:36.120 --> 00:34:39.480
I feel like that is sort of a separate thing too is like um
435
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:46.040
You know to me the user should see the response instantaneously even if the thing takes a little while
436
00:34:46.040 --> 00:34:50.360
So like suppose I'm on some network and I'm like look it's AWS
437
00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:56.920
So you know good luck getting this response back in in less than 30 milliseconds because like even though the data center is
438
00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:03.320
Is like two milliseconds of of of hop away or something as soon as it hits AWS
439
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:07.480
It's just grinds to a halt right and like that's been my experience
440
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:12.920
And it was like the the late the time it takes light to get to the data center has nothing to do with how long to take that
441
00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:16.360
They are just going to chew through those milliseconds doing whatever it is that they do
442
00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:20.520
With like they're switching and you know virtual machine management or whatever it is
443
00:35:20.520 --> 00:35:21.800
You know, I don't work there. I have no idea
444
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:30.040
So assuming you're going to do that you're like look we're not going to hit 60 Hertz or 120 Hertz because we know this thing is going to take like 40 milliseconds to get back from AWS
445
00:35:30.680 --> 00:35:34.280
I still want to show the thing immediately so like for the case of a run dialogue
446
00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:37.880
Let's say for whatever reason I can't predict it. I don't know these are going to do it
447
00:35:38.120 --> 00:35:43.000
I have to fetch their run history from AWS for some reason because like it's oh it's a shared
448
00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:48.040
It's like a synced run history across machines. I didn't know they were on this machine or so
449
00:35:48.040 --> 00:35:51.000
I mean, I don't know how that doesn't make any sense. I should have sunk this ahead of time. But whatever
450
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:56.760
I would fire off that request but display the run dialogue on the next frame
451
00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:03.320
Right because I know that by the time they're actually able to hit the first key that I'll need to search that run dialogue for
452
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:12.440
I probably will get at least some of that information back and so I'm covering a little bit of that latency and giving the user the instant response that I want to give them right
453
00:36:13.640 --> 00:36:19.640
And then if you know the response doesn't come back and they do hit a key and I'm sitting there and I'm like AWS not loading
454
00:36:19.640 --> 00:36:23.400
Then I have to put up a little spinner or something right just tell them like look
455
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:29.640
AWS is is dick in me here. So I get it like you know run history not available to later. WS respond to the little thing
456
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:36.280
But you know, that's just how I think about it. So like I'm not being disingenuous. That is literally how I think about it
457
00:36:37.080 --> 00:36:41.400
And it pisses me off in games too like if I'm sitting there waiting for a loading screen that you
458
00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:46.360
I'm like guys you obviously could have streamed this in like why wasn't this already loaded like what's going on
459
00:36:46.520 --> 00:36:51.400
I get mad at that all the time. I'm just like the the goal should be zero weight states for the user pretty much ever
460
00:36:52.600 --> 00:36:56.040
So we've had a lot of arguments about this over over the years and
461
00:36:56.840 --> 00:36:58.840
who you end
462
00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:01.080
My previous team
463
00:37:01.080 --> 00:37:03.080
Shall we say and so one of the one of the big things was
464
00:37:03.560 --> 00:37:09.640
What's worse the initial loading or in app loading like which one actually makes a user more nuts
465
00:37:10.680 --> 00:37:15.480
Which one's going to cause them to be more upset would you rather have a bunch of small distributed little loads
466
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:18.680
Throughout the app or would you rather have a bigger initial load
467
00:37:20.200 --> 00:37:23.000
So in my mind usually so
468
00:37:24.680 --> 00:37:29.160
I would say that if I find myself in that literal position
469
00:37:30.120 --> 00:37:33.720
Then my answer would be how often do they load this thing
470
00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:37.000
but
471
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:40.680
Before finding myself now because I would have asked the question are you sure
472
00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:48.360
Are you sure that you couldn't find a way to make this work because a lot of times if people are like oh
473
00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:55.960
We have no choice but this long initial load. I'm like are you sure like are you sure that you actually did everything you could
474
00:37:56.600 --> 00:37:57.960
To make that
475
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:03.880
Initial package you needed to get started as small as possible right well. I'm on team bigger load
476
00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:07.640
Initially that's if the app is but obviously within a threshold
477
00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:12.760
If the app is loaded infrequently then if you have to make that trade off
478
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:16.680
I would say you do that if the app is loaded all the time because you like typically load this thing
479
00:38:16.680 --> 00:38:21.240
Do a little tiny thing and then close it then you're kind of in this nasty situation where it's like
480
00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:27.080
Okay, well, I don't know it's it's sort of just as bad right like because you know
481
00:38:27.080 --> 00:38:30.680
So I would say I wouldn't think about those things as different
482
00:38:30.680 --> 00:38:35.160
I would just say there's frequency of operation and cost of operation
483
00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:41.560
And you're trying to minimize the total of those right the cost times the you know the cost times the frequency
484
00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:47.240
And so if the frequency of launching this app is very high and the frequency of things you do in the app is very low
485
00:38:47.560 --> 00:38:52.920
Then maybe it would make sense to actually try to minimize your app load time, but in general I would say like
486
00:38:54.680 --> 00:38:58.360
99% of the time when someone's like oh, I needed to do X
487
00:38:58.600 --> 00:39:04.200
So that's why there's a long load time here. I'm like no, you didn't like I can think of tons of ways that I could have not done it that way
488
00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:09.720
Right like strip this out don't do it that way have a low quality version of that thing you stream in first
489
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:13.480
Right like think mega texture right or
490
00:39:14.120 --> 00:39:16.360
Level of detail would be a better way to think of it right
491
00:39:17.720 --> 00:39:21.000
I know that I have something I can display for this thing
492
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:23.960
It may not be the best looking version of that thing
493
00:39:24.200 --> 00:39:31.320
So if I'm caught by surprise I do that right away and then increase its resolution when I can right things like this
494
00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:36.600
Or you can typically do things to try and make sure that you're very responsive and you know
495
00:39:36.600 --> 00:39:40.040
If you then decide like okay, no, we can't do that because this thing has to be saber scene link
496
00:39:40.040 --> 00:39:45.000
Sure, you can always paint yourself into a quarter where you where you absolutely have to this thing and then I agree you do
497
00:39:45.080 --> 00:39:49.240
But I would make sure all those avenues are exhausted first is I guess what I would say
498
00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:53.960
Yeah, we do have like some techniques that we call or that we coin call like progressive enhancement
499
00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:56.040
Which is yeah exactly the shittiest thing
500
00:39:56.040 --> 00:40:01.400
But if you have a good machine then we'll slowly enhance your experience, right? Which I think is fair
501
00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:04.120
But just go ahead god
502
00:40:04.200 --> 00:40:07.960
No, so just to try and get that nice responsive feel because you know
503
00:40:08.840 --> 00:40:11.560
And that's again, that's just because that's the way I like things
504
00:40:11.560 --> 00:40:13.480
I like things to be very responsive
505
00:40:13.560 --> 00:40:18.120
Maybe some people just don't care they like they push the right button on something
506
00:40:18.120 --> 00:40:20.200
You know if you open up next, I should push the rights button
507
00:40:20.200 --> 00:40:22.200
It takes a while kind of lagging it goes
508
00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:27.720
I'm like that sucks like so much should fix this right if someone else might be like I don't know it's fine
509
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:33.480
Right, and so and so it really depends on who you're talking to probably what their preference is on those two things right
510
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:34.680
I don't know
511
00:40:34.680 --> 00:40:38.040
Does that make sense like you know some people might be fine with that some people might not be yeah
512
00:40:38.040 --> 00:40:39.640
I mean it's hard to
513
00:40:39.640 --> 00:40:43.000
Everyone has a different threshold really the tolerate right yeah
514
00:40:43.080 --> 00:40:46.360
So yeah, it's hard like who do you optimize for like there's nothing I hate worse
515
00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:49.000
I would hate to have a quick experience like load
516
00:40:49.560 --> 00:40:54.200
Or like a quick loading experience, but then every time I click something it's like ah exactly now
517
00:40:54.200 --> 00:40:59.480
We got to have not that thing yeah, I think that's like significantly worse in my because the clicking is more frequent
518
00:40:59.560 --> 00:41:03.720
Right, it's that's I say like it's frequency versus cost if you're gonna click a hundred times in this thing
519
00:41:03.720 --> 00:41:09.640
But only load it once you don't want the hundred things to each take the long time and the one thing to be fast
520
00:41:09.640 --> 00:41:12.440
Right, that's not helping anybody right, so yeah
521
00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:16.360
That's what all my banking software looks like I got like open like my banking dashboard
522
00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:21.000
It's just like 20 spinners and then I click something else and it's like 40 more spinners
523
00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:27.080
I'm like who's making these banking ads? It's also just got so many zeros in his you know
524
00:41:27.080 --> 00:41:31.720
It's just such a full bank account they're spinning forever to figure out what's in his account
525
00:41:32.680 --> 00:41:37.240
Because you know it's getting added to trash is bad account. It's like oh my goodness
526
00:41:37.240 --> 00:41:39.880
We have to widen this div. It's crazy
527
00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:45.400
What
528
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:47.400
That's just you make sense trash
529
00:41:48.200 --> 00:41:50.200
You're not working right now
530
00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:53.800
I want to be working
531
00:41:53.800 --> 00:41:59.960
That's what I'm saying aren't you having fun hanging out with us when you still be on the bottom trash?
532
00:42:01.160 --> 00:42:03.160
You're not paid to be on this
533
00:42:03.560 --> 00:42:05.560
Oh
534
00:42:11.560 --> 00:42:13.560
Oh red button blue button
535
00:42:17.720 --> 00:42:19.720
Oh, no
536
00:42:19.720 --> 00:42:23.320
I'm answering from now on when people ask that red blue question
537
00:42:23.560 --> 00:42:27.800
I'm giving trash his answer. It's the best answer I've ever heard and I loved it. It was so good
538
00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:33.800
I don't like it. I was thinking about the question deserved it was perfect
539
00:42:33.800 --> 00:42:38.760
I like I that was a teachable moment for me and I have learned from trash and I am a better person. You're welcome
540
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:42.200
That's my opinion. Anyway, I really wanted to for the full episode
541
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:48.600
Just like play I thought about just having the edit be it does trash is answer and then we play everything else on
542
00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:53.800
16 x and then it just ends with Casey who's saying I hated this discussion
543
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:01.880
Haha, I thought people would enjoy the overall conversation
544
00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:05.880
But I did think about like publishing the full episode just with trash answering and then
545
00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:13.880
It was a good answer. It was freaking perfect dude. I loved it. My Microsoft has a bit of a hill to climb
546
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:17.080
Because I am just gonna throw this out there
547
00:43:17.080 --> 00:43:23.720
I also get an like an update just recently that restarts my computer like six times before the update actually happens
548
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:28.600
And I just read an article from somewhere where it's just like it's actually totally normal
549
00:43:29.080 --> 00:43:34.120
That windows needs to up you know restarts your computer 15 times for an update like this is actually by design
550
00:43:34.600 --> 00:43:39.080
And so I think part of the problem that I I personally have is that they're like look at the run
551
00:43:39.720 --> 00:43:43.320
Dialogue performance and it's just like well that's something I virtually never use
552
00:43:45.080 --> 00:43:47.160
Because I just don't I mean I don't do development on there
553
00:43:47.160 --> 00:43:49.560
So I'm not opening something that needs that typically. I'm you know
554
00:43:49.560 --> 00:43:53.160
I'm opening a couple things that have pinned. I use windows in a very rookie way
555
00:43:53.720 --> 00:43:56.920
And so it's just like none of these improvements really help me
556
00:43:56.920 --> 00:43:59.240
I still run into bugs all the time like right now
557
00:44:00.040 --> 00:44:03.640
For whatever reason we're back into this state where when I create a folder
558
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:08.440
It's goes to the bottom of the list and not the top of the list like all the folders are on the top
559
00:44:08.520 --> 00:44:13.240
I created new when it goes to the bottom and so I have to leave and come back if I wanted up at the top again
560
00:44:13.240 --> 00:44:17.640
It's just like it's driving me bonkers again that there's so many little things are broken
561
00:44:17.640 --> 00:44:19.640
And I just want to like lose my marbles
562
00:44:20.040 --> 00:44:24.120
And then there's like bro, but run dialogue dog is so bad
563
00:44:24.120 --> 00:44:27.160
I did it, but they didn't say that what they said is
564
00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:33.720
We read we're we're putting in a new run dialogue that was made with performance top of mind
565
00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:38.280
And great news it's basically the exact same speed as the old one
566
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:45.400
Right that's what they said like nobody said that it actually substantially improved the run the performance
567
00:44:45.720 --> 00:44:49.880
So presumably what they were trying to say was we added some features
568
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:54.280
Right, I'm guessing I assume I mean, I don't know because I don't care
569
00:44:54.680 --> 00:45:01.160
This is the other thing that I hate about the fact that this tweet got I guess so many likes that people started replying to it with this
570
00:45:01.720 --> 00:45:03.720
crap about fps, but anyway
571
00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:06.280
um
572
00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:11.240
I'm assuming that the idea is they added a bunch of features and didn't make it slower which is good right
573
00:45:11.240 --> 00:45:13.960
I mean like I'm happy that they first time in a while
574
00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:17.640
Yeah, but at the same time it's like I wouldn't
575
00:45:18.520 --> 00:45:20.040
mention that
576
00:45:20.040 --> 00:45:27.880
Right, I wouldn't have cited some numbers and bid like hey like we're so proud of ourselves that we didn't slow down a run dialogue like I'm like
577
00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:32.440
Yeah, like like what that's like that's like
578
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:39.160
par for the course. I mean, what are you talking about like of course you shouldn't have slowed down the time it takes to open the run dialogue
579
00:45:39.560 --> 00:45:47.000
That's a blog post now like what's going on right? So that alone too is just very frustrating because you're like now you're getting mad at
580
00:45:47.640 --> 00:45:54.120
That you're getting mad at me for replying to somebody who replied to your thing where all you did
581
00:45:54.600 --> 00:46:00.680
Was say that the run dialogue takes 94 milliseconds, which is a hell of a lot of time for something to take
582
00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:05.560
And like how did we get here? You know, it's ridiculous. This shouldn't have even been news
583
00:46:05.560 --> 00:46:09.720
It shouldn't even have been posted. Well to be fair the person I got the person that most got mad at you
584
00:46:09.720 --> 00:46:16.920
Was actually a writer for something it wasn't that it was like a friend that could have owned in they could have got owned in a wikipedia page
585
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:23.240
But instead Casey you're now getting a wikipedia page being mr fps you know falsifier
586
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:26.760
Um, except it's not false. It is the it is the fps
587
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:29.560
But yes, like the question I have
588
00:46:30.520 --> 00:46:34.680
There would also be like could we you propose this trade
589
00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:39.720
I believe to Jimmy Wales on the previous episode. Let's propose it now
590
00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:42.360
I can go back and
591
00:46:42.600 --> 00:46:49.640
Delete my original tweet and post a new tweet where I put the millisecond number in place of where the fps number now
592
00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:55.640
Mind you my tweet had both because I quoted the millisecond number so it what it wasn't that I didn't
593
00:46:55.720 --> 00:47:03.080
Include that information right it was that they didn't like the even the fact that you could bring fps into it was just this
594
00:47:03.800 --> 00:47:06.040
Unholy, you know, absolutely
595
00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:08.920
Ridiculous thing to do but anyway
596
00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:12.360
I'll go back and delete that tweet and only mention milliseconds
597
00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:19.080
I won't mention fps anywhere in it in exchange for them writing a nice article about Odin
598
00:47:19.720 --> 00:47:22.280
Um, and how it's used that janga effects there we go
599
00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:27.880
That's a good deal. That's a good deal. That's a good deal. That's a good deal right. We all everyone wins
600
00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:33.400
Um, but I don't know if you know this but a kind of a little update
601
00:47:33.880 --> 00:47:40.200
Uh, this person named Phil which you can't really quite see well on my or the stream can't quite see it very well
602
00:47:40.520 --> 00:47:46.520
But Phil over here wrote his own version in which takes approximately 20 milliseconds to show up on screen
603
00:47:47.160 --> 00:47:50.360
And so he's able to show a dialogue super alter quick
604
00:47:51.240 --> 00:47:53.240
And his own handwritten one
605
00:47:53.640 --> 00:47:57.640
Yeah, but the problem with that is that like um
606
00:47:58.600 --> 00:48:02.680
I'm just I'm just gonna put myself in the mind space of the people who were replying to my tweet
607
00:48:03.080 --> 00:48:10.040
Okay, take a moment take a moment. Take a moment. Yeah, the problem with that is isn't that demonstration doesn't mean anything
608
00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:14.920
Because that person didn't run it on all the same machines and take the median
609
00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:20.440
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter
610
00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:22.920
It's meaningless because he has a different monitor
611
00:48:23.160 --> 00:48:30.760
Also, he's not loading he's not loading the run history from Microsoft OneDrive or whatever that it is that this thing does right
612
00:48:31.080 --> 00:48:36.920
So he's not doing the things I always get they're all ridiculous, but they're that they're like um, you know
613
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:39.000
It's not an apples to apples comparison
614
00:48:39.640 --> 00:48:43.480
You don't have all the features. It's the features uh, it's um
615
00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:50.120
It's the plugins you just don't you don't have plugins plugins everyone knows that as soon as there's a concept of a plugin
616
00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:54.280
Everything is takes several seconds to happen
617
00:48:54.920 --> 00:48:56.040
um
618
00:48:56.040 --> 00:49:00.840
Casey you know that's what he will get you people reply with with that crap to that person even though he did it right
619
00:49:01.080 --> 00:49:06.600
So Casey you're actually missing kind of like a really fun part of web dev uh, which goes a little something like this
620
00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:08.920
Which is all right
621
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:17.400
We're going to rewrite something and we're going to rewrite it and here's our kind of first implementation of it and it is 10 times
622
00:49:18.120 --> 00:49:19.640
Faster, bro
623
00:49:19.640 --> 00:49:27.480
That's so good the previous version like this new version it's so fast and they release it and everyone's like high-fiving and then
624
00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:30.280
About three months later
625
00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:35.240
After you fully rewritten it it's effectively baseline or worse like typically it actually goes worse
626
00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:40.360
Like this happened with a very major project that I saw it actually got significantly worse memory usage
627
00:49:40.680 --> 00:49:44.200
And so it's just like but in the beginning it was so good
628
00:49:44.200 --> 00:49:48.200
So when I see it like a run dialogue rewrite that came in below budget
629
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:53.000
I mean you don't realize what this does to me like I can't I don't even think it was possible
630
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:55.480
So I'm actually very impressed
631
00:49:56.200 --> 00:49:59.960
I mean like I said I don't know I'm just saying what people will say
632
00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:04.120
I don't know I I thought for oh god
633
00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:08.120
No, teach please I was gonna say initially when I saw the tweet
634
00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:14.680
I thought for sure I misread it because I thought they were saying the start menu thing the thing that people actually open
635
00:50:14.920 --> 00:50:21.720
You know, I'm saying the one that like sometimes you press the start thing and then it like it just doesn't show up for five seconds
636
00:50:21.720 --> 00:50:25.720
And then it shows like I was like good for yes
637
00:50:25.720 --> 00:50:29.640
Yeah, it shows me ads for edge and for being and like
638
00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:35.800
I was like wow good for them a feature that a regular every day person uses
639
00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:40.920
They rewrote from scratch and took from my experience median of five to ten seconds to load
640
00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:46.120
It feels like and they brought it down to 90 milliseconds. I'm like great good for them
641
00:50:46.120 --> 00:50:50.120
You see opposite of that right every single version of windows that gets slower
642
00:50:51.080 --> 00:50:57.000
The start menu is still bad and the run menu that my parents don't know exists
643
00:50:57.640 --> 00:51:01.720
My mom has never seen the run menu. She does not know what that even means like if I were to tell it
644
00:51:01.720 --> 00:51:04.200
Oh, just use the run menu. She's like what is a run menu?
645
00:51:04.200 --> 00:51:09.160
I'm kind of confused about the run menu to be completely honest because
646
00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:13.640
Again, this is kind of like for historical reasons
647
00:51:14.120 --> 00:51:20.520
Originally the start menu did not really have the concept of like type to execute so
648
00:51:21.160 --> 00:51:26.680
Like if you look back at like a Windows 95 or Windows 2000 XP or a start menu
649
00:51:27.160 --> 00:51:30.200
Then what happened if I if I'm remembering correctly
650
00:51:31.160 --> 00:51:36.920
Is typing would be imp would be interpreted as like trying to hotkey through that menu
651
00:51:37.160 --> 00:51:43.320
So like you popped up the start menu using like the super key or whatever or the windows key or whatever
652
00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:47.800
It would be called I guess the co-pilot key now Casey co-pilot would it know yeah right
653
00:51:48.280 --> 00:51:51.560
Um, it is yeah you push that the start button opens and you type a key
654
00:51:51.720 --> 00:51:54.840
I think it just hotkeys through that menu. It doesn't start
655
00:51:55.320 --> 00:52:00.360
Uh, it didn't originally I'd at least my recollection is it didn't originally start
656
00:52:01.160 --> 00:52:05.320
Accepting those as keystrokes to be interpreted as a command of some kind
657
00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:08.440
If you now do it like if I hit that button
658
00:52:09.080 --> 00:52:13.640
Uh, it it does so like if I hits the start menu button and I start typing
659
00:52:14.040 --> 00:52:19.000
It does sort of like a linuxy style thing where you start typing into a kind of ambiguous box
660
00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:25.160
That's just like I don't know. I'm gonna do something with this yeah D menu effectively effectively my question is
661
00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:33.080
Why is there even a run menu to begin with now isn't that thing like what why are there two different things
662
00:52:33.160 --> 00:52:35.560
And I'm guessing and I could be wrong
663
00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:41.320
I'm guessing the answer is because the run menu is actually gonna run the thing
664
00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:47.320
Whereas the the box is like we have to keep that as like an idiot box
665
00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:50.920
Like it has to be a thing where you just type if you type in c colon
666
00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:57.160
Backslash uh, you know windows backslash notepad.exe into that or something
667
00:52:57.480 --> 00:53:00.440
We have to show you ads for our new co-pilot improved
668
00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:05.400
Uh, actually had that you or what it right like it has to it has to do all these other
669
00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:07.960
Business oriented operations
670
00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:11.720
So that can't be the run dialogue. We have to have this other run dialogue
671
00:53:11.720 --> 00:53:15.000
Is that the explanation because I don't really know like I don't know why there are two
672
00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:22.520
Yeah, Casey unfortunately you're 100% right it will literally show you internet search results
673
00:53:23.160 --> 00:53:25.160
In the start menu
674
00:53:27.160 --> 00:53:33.320
Yeah, thank you for getting the search results. It's a thing uh, so I find Casey
675
00:53:33.880 --> 00:53:37.800
When can I say one more thing about that though, which is that Casey unfortunately you'll be really
676
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:41.400
Pleased or sad to hear I don't know depending on you know
677
00:53:41.640 --> 00:53:44.760
Are we praying on Microsoft's downfall? I'm not sure but
678
00:53:45.720 --> 00:53:53.640
Oftentimes it shows the internet search result higher than the local program in my experience on that where you start typing something
679
00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:57.720
I start typing slay this fire to and it doesn't pick the game
680
00:53:57.800 --> 00:54:03.640
It's going to pick a web search to bring me to slay this buyer to dot com or something like that instead and opens
681
00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:10.440
It does a bunch of stuff at yeah, yeah, trash hold it up so we can see flip flip your you know point yourself away from the camera
682
00:54:10.920 --> 00:54:14.040
One password. This is a work machine. Hold on. It might reveal
683
00:54:14.440 --> 00:54:19.880
Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it.
684
00:54:20.840 --> 00:54:23.640
I'll be enough. I do have my password on the screen right now
685
00:54:26.440 --> 00:54:28.920
Don't don't say no are you kidding me right now?
686
00:54:36.040 --> 00:54:38.360
You can't admit that you cannot admit that out loud
687
00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:52.840
All right
688
00:54:52.840 --> 00:55:00.120
Stacy can I make can I make you even more frustrated? I mean I again like I don't care windows do whatever you want
689
00:55:00.280 --> 00:55:03.000
I switched. I don't care. The frustration was the tweets
690
00:55:03.560 --> 00:55:05.560
It's very mature of you
691
00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:10.760
So one thing that's kind of interesting about
692
00:55:12.200 --> 00:55:16.600
What's called the start menu is that you can you can kind of treat it like a fuzzy finder a little bit
693
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:22.440
So I can type in like s notes and hopefully I get what I'm wanting it doesn't quite work that well
694
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:24.520
It pulls up results. I can't quite figure it out
695
00:55:24.760 --> 00:55:27.320
But the run one is definitely not fuzzy findable
696
00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:28.040
Right
697
00:55:28.040 --> 00:55:31.800
So the run one you have to type in like the correct thing you have to say the program you're gonna run
698
00:55:32.120 --> 00:55:37.800
Which I assume is the intent right like it's trying it's trying to be more of a command line like
699
00:55:38.280 --> 00:55:39.560
Experience
700
00:55:39.560 --> 00:55:45.320
Which is why I this is why I assume that there are two which is kind of weird but like you know
701
00:55:46.600 --> 00:55:52.440
Yeah, and so that's that's the that's the interesting one is that you get a more fuzzy find plus internet results one for one
702
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:58.600
And a no fuzzy find one for the other one and so but the update to the one that nobody know really generally most people don't use
703
00:55:58.600 --> 00:55:59.800
I assume yeah
704
00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:03.720
That's more for people who just like they they
705
00:56:04.280 --> 00:56:07.640
Back in the day they opened the start menu and selected run
706
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:12.680
Which is how you originally got to this or you learned the hot key of win or something
707
00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:14.600
And now that's just part of your workflow
708
00:56:14.600 --> 00:56:18.200
So we tried to keep it which I appreciate them doing like they could have just removed it
709
00:56:18.200 --> 00:56:23.800
Like you said very few people probably use it in relative to their gigantic user base
710
00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:28.920
But very few people in this case is still probably in the 100,000s right because windows is so huge
711
00:56:29.240 --> 00:56:32.280
Yeah, I think I most often see it in um
712
00:56:33.640 --> 00:56:37.880
Let's see kit bogey videos where the guys are trying to scam him and they make him run
713
00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:40.280
And
714
00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:47.880
The time I most often see the run menu is they say open up run menu type and then they say something insane to type in there
715
00:56:50.040 --> 00:56:55.720
By the way tj just so you know you could always disable search results if you wanted to oh I can
716
00:56:56.200 --> 00:56:58.280
I don't have any star menu leaders left now
717
00:56:59.160 --> 00:57:01.160
Okay
718
00:57:01.160 --> 00:57:06.360
I guess you wanted to if you know it's fantastic pieces of star menu you could disable ads
719
00:57:06.600 --> 00:57:08.360
It's like a it's an available option
720
00:57:09.080 --> 00:57:14.040
We talked about this recently. I literally tried to boot up an old windows computer that I had
721
00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:19.320
So I could have it as a minecraft machine for my wife so that when we play minecraft together
722
00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:23.320
She just has one computer that we turn on and then it opens to minecraft basically
723
00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:30.600
It got stuck in an update loop where I couldn't download minecraft because it was waiting for windows updates
724
00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:35.240
But windows updates couldn't run because it was trying to run windows store problems
725
00:57:35.560 --> 00:57:41.080
And so they fought each other and I couldn't get an update or minecraft installed on the machine
726
00:57:41.480 --> 00:57:46.840
So I deleted everything and installed linux and put minecraft on their faster than I could get the windows update
727
00:57:47.400 --> 00:57:56.280
Minecraft a a Microsoft product a Microsoft product. I had to run the Android emulated version of bedrock
728
00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:58.360
Minecraft on my linux machine
729
00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:04.040
Which I installed from scratch faster than I could figure out how to get the windows thing to work
730
00:58:04.120 --> 00:58:09.160
Because I had to do that because there was bedrock one. That's the one that we're running for my kid. So it's anyways. It's crazy
731
00:58:10.040 --> 00:58:14.120
I think Microsoft should just start shipping linux. I think it's over. I think they should just
732
00:58:14.840 --> 00:58:16.840
Put the windows in that too
733
00:58:17.080 --> 00:58:22.200
They should put a windows logo on linux and call it Microsoft linux
734
00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:25.400
Or something like that Microsoft winix
735
00:58:26.200 --> 00:58:33.400
And just windows 12. That's all I have to do that's just it's windows 12 windows 12 is just linux and they just and they just like like
736
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:37.480
Send all their source code to the wine developers because I as far as I'm concerned. It's over
737
00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:40.920
Like it's just it's over guys like it's over. All right
738
00:58:41.080 --> 00:58:46.360
Windows sub system for linux. It could be wind at what would be the opposite of sub system something that
739
00:58:46.760 --> 00:58:52.280
Consumers others windows super system. There we go little Linux. Yeah, it's still WSL
740
00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:54.360
But it's also colpilot
741
00:58:55.000 --> 00:58:57.000
It's called colpilot WSL
742
00:58:57.800 --> 00:59:02.920
Because people have been trying I mean people have been trying for decades to get things fixed at this point now
743
00:59:03.240 --> 00:59:08.040
And it's just it's too late like it's just like everyone was forced to go do other stuff now
744
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:11.000
That's why this is happening no one wanted to do this
745
00:59:11.720 --> 00:59:17.000
Like like valden want to make steam OS like I didn't want to change our machines here to linux
746
00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:23.320
I was fine with windows. They just they forced us to do it by just never caring about what any of us think
747
00:59:23.560 --> 00:59:27.000
And so now we're gone. I'm not coming back. It doesn't matter
748
00:59:28.440 --> 00:59:32.600
Oh, great question. Can they win you back? What would Microsoft have to do to win you back
749
00:59:33.400 --> 00:59:36.760
They can't because I was that's what happens so
750
00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:45.240
When you have a customer who's been a customer for you know, I don't know 30 years for something or 25 years
751
00:59:45.240 --> 00:59:47.240
I don't I'd have to go count how long it was
752
00:59:48.120 --> 00:59:50.360
um since since like the
753
00:59:51.160 --> 00:59:53.080
early 90s probably I would say
754
00:59:53.800 --> 00:59:57.240
When I was like in high school. I think I started using windows
755
00:59:57.960 --> 01:00:01.400
But um doesn't matter like windows 3 1 and stuff
756
01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:07.000
Uh, so the point is when you have a customer who's been with you that long
757
01:00:07.560 --> 01:00:14.680
And had all of their stuff like built on your system and was used to it and you know that was how they do their work
758
01:00:15.320 --> 01:00:17.000
The
759
01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:21.000
amount of work you're asking them to do to leave is pretty substantial
760
01:00:21.640 --> 01:00:25.320
In order to get to that point right it's not a like
761
01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:27.960
It's not a trial separation
762
01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:33.160
It's not a like we're just going to take some time to find each other and then we'll come back and see if this marriage still works
763
01:00:33.560 --> 01:00:34.680
it's not of that
764
01:00:34.680 --> 01:00:36.280
this is a
765
01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:40.600
Like I find you found you screwing the babysitter and we're getting divorced forever
766
01:00:40.760 --> 01:00:43.560
And I will never speak to you again and I'm taking the kids like that's
767
01:00:44.200 --> 01:00:48.840
That's how the windows thing went with me and I suspect that's how it went with a lot of people
768
01:00:49.640 --> 01:00:53.160
They were so bad for so long and so
769
01:00:53.800 --> 01:01:00.280
Egregiously anti-user that the people who left because of that are never coming back like I'm never coming back ever
770
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:02.280
There's nothing you could do to win me back
771
01:01:02.360 --> 01:01:07.880
I will die a user of some alternative operating system the question that they would need to ask is
772
01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:10.840
How do they stop that from happening to more people
773
01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:16.440
That's the only question left for them Casey I hear all those words you said the babysitter all that okay
774
01:01:16.840 --> 01:01:21.800
But what if just hear me out here, you know, you know how Holly would stop having good and new ideas
775
01:01:23.240 --> 01:01:25.240
What if windows
776
01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:27.800
Seven remastered
777
01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:32.280
Windows seven part two
778
01:01:33.480 --> 01:01:35.640
Windows seven performance edition
779
01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:42.600
Just throwing it out there whatever we went backwards. Okay, here's the thing is that's assuming that
780
01:01:43.160 --> 01:01:44.200
uh
781
01:01:44.200 --> 01:01:48.200
You know that's to continue my analogy that's just like saying I've changed
782
01:01:49.400 --> 01:01:55.080
I what do you mean like what how do I know how do I know you're not gonna go if I take does now
783
01:01:55.080 --> 01:01:57.880
I have to do work to switch back to your platform
784
01:01:58.520 --> 01:02:04.200
What what guarantees do I have that you won't just start sucking again immediately right and none
785
01:02:04.600 --> 01:02:09.640
You've demonstrated what kind of company you are you've demonstrated how you treat your users
786
01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:13.560
You've demonstrated institutionally what you think of us
787
01:02:14.120 --> 01:02:20.360
Which is you don't think of us you don't care when we repeatedly say you need to fix this windows update situation
788
01:02:20.360 --> 01:02:28.120
When we repeatedly say that look all of these things are broken the fight like the explorer if you accidentally drag an icon over a network share
789
01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:30.360
It pauses for several seconds
790
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:36.600
Unrecoverably how long has not waiting what is that like I don't know this don't fix anything. I don't care anymore
791
01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:39.400
I don't want to rely on you anymore, right?
792
01:02:39.960 --> 01:02:47.000
It's gotten to the point where some random people on the internet who put together a Linux distribution and put up an ISO
793
01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:52.440
Are more reliable to me than you that is where you have gotten right
794
01:02:53.640 --> 01:02:59.240
In terms of what I think of your ability to provide software to me that I can rely on it's over
795
01:03:00.360 --> 01:03:05.160
It's it's it's done. There's no way there's nothing you could do. I will you know
796
01:03:05.160 --> 01:03:09.960
I would go start working on Linux to fix it before I would go back to windows
797
01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:13.000
So not even XP remastered hurdle
798
01:03:14.120 --> 01:03:15.320
No
799
01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:21.240
No, it's the it's the it's a loss of confidence complete loss of confidence in the institution, right?
800
01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:23.400
Okay, but what about windows dose
801
01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:34.600
What about what we get we had Ms. Doss what about mr. Doss
802
01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:44.040
I did not even get the dose quite I didn't even get the joke the the dose I didn't even get it
803
01:03:45.560 --> 01:03:47.560
I mean that's just a judge is absurd
804
01:03:48.840 --> 01:03:50.840
Mr. Doss though, that's pretty funny
805
01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:54.360
Here's what I will say I don't remember if there was a windows two
806
01:03:54.680 --> 01:03:57.640
I remember there was a windows one and I remember there's a windows three
807
01:03:58.200 --> 01:04:00.760
I don't remember if there is a windows two was
808
01:04:02.280 --> 01:04:08.040
Started windows in 3.1 era. I never got to I never was on a windows one. I remember one was amazing
809
01:04:08.040 --> 01:04:11.240
You should go back and take a look. It's like it was a tiling window manager prime
810
01:04:12.440 --> 01:04:17.640
What believe it or not? Oh my god, so windows could actually handle windows well
811
01:04:18.120 --> 01:04:24.600
Tiling people are all like tiling window manager. Oh my god. It's the hotness like baby. I had that with windows one
812
01:04:24.760 --> 01:04:26.760
You open up a new window all your other window
813
01:04:27.320 --> 01:04:32.040
That's what happened all your other windows strength look it up kids. Oh my gosh
814
01:04:32.040 --> 01:04:36.920
That actually hurts me a little bit bill gates brought you the tiling window manager all these noobs
815
01:04:37.160 --> 01:04:41.800
All these noobs thinking linux did that didn't do that. I knew it was maybe windows one theory
816
01:04:42.440 --> 01:04:47.080
I knew what tiling window managers were conspiracy by the gates foundation look it up
817
01:04:48.680 --> 01:04:53.800
DHH do you think you're doing something but you're just windows one baby you're just windows one
818
01:04:54.600 --> 01:04:57.880
Nothing new under the sun windows one open up calculator
819
01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:00.440
Like it only had like three things
820
01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:02.200
Calculator
821
01:05:02.200 --> 01:05:06.520
Open up calculator again. Open up clock. I'm like clock to calculate. I was it was
822
01:05:06.520 --> 01:05:11.080
Word perfect. No pad. That's all you got now. It was word perfect back in the day
823
01:05:11.640 --> 01:05:15.160
Yeah, there was probably a couple apps that were actually important that people were using
824
01:05:15.160 --> 01:05:18.760
I don't know what they were but I just played around with it. I never used it for anything real
825
01:05:19.240 --> 01:05:21.800
True I was a little kid I was a little baby
826
01:05:22.920 --> 01:05:27.880
The heck I know I feel like trash just hasn't had a lot to say so trash what why don't you why don't you give us the last word
827
01:05:29.000 --> 01:05:32.840
Oh, I was gonna say I used to play cuba and family feud on my windows machine via floppy disk
828
01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:35.960
What is family feud the video game
829
01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:38.760
If you
830
01:05:38.760 --> 01:05:41.480
I used to just play family feud that family feud for like
831
01:05:42.680 --> 01:05:46.440
10 hours a day. I don't know my windows machine. It was like the best time of my life
832
01:05:46.520 --> 01:05:53.400
How did you never bring that up after we hosted two family feuds like we would have featured you more highly in the show if we knew you're such a super fan
833
01:05:54.760 --> 01:05:56.680
Yeah, I mean, I just had nothing else to do with my time
834
01:05:57.640 --> 01:06:00.440
And to you in this I don't remember the family feud game
835
01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:05.320
I don't think I've ever seen it. Is it like they give you the category the thing like name something
836
01:06:05.800 --> 01:06:07.800
You pack for a vacation
837
01:06:08.600 --> 01:06:12.440
In you type it in you type it in and you have to get it exactly right or
838
01:06:13.400 --> 01:06:18.600
To get so see the scoreboard or like the x's and that was it. I would just play that non-stop
839
01:06:18.600 --> 01:06:22.920
Do you have a virtual family on the figures at just the same thing? I don't think it actually had people
840
01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:26.840
It was just just like the things flipping they didn't even flip. I mean, it's just showing right right
841
01:06:26.840 --> 01:06:33.080
I mean it's the old days that the stuff was harder. Right. I think you burnt keeper was my little one and dig dug dig dug was another big one
842
01:06:33.080 --> 01:06:37.800
I played too dude my son just discovered dig dug we were out of there being beat with some friends
843
01:06:37.800 --> 01:06:41.400
And they had a little arcade thing down there. So then we started we started
844
01:06:42.200 --> 01:06:47.560
You know, he's five so we're but we started vibe coding a dig dug alternative for him to be able to play
845
01:06:48.200 --> 01:06:51.640
And like because he really liked that in one of them you could make
846
01:06:52.760 --> 01:07:00.680
Like jackhammer the ground there was like a 2.5 D version as well dig dug under covers of the I don't know crazy
847
01:07:01.240 --> 01:07:06.600
Okay, I don't know they had other dig dug versions that I was unaware of but I remember the original and so we
848
01:07:06.680 --> 01:07:11.560
We just started building one with him. It was pretty sick. I don't know dig dug
849
01:07:12.200 --> 01:07:18.760
What dig dug? No, I mean, I know rampage. I know all the sickly digging around the street like 10 years later
850
01:07:19.320 --> 01:07:23.480
Like a decade after dig dug dig dug is way older. Okay, so maybe maybe okay, hold on
851
01:07:23.480 --> 01:07:25.480
Maybe I do know dig dug by accident
852
01:07:25.640 --> 01:07:29.800
I do have a nice little Atari machine like gigantic arcade machine
853
01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:31.800
That's an Atari machine with a few different games on it
854
01:07:32.360 --> 01:07:37.160
And one of them is a thing where you dig through the ground and these enemies try to get you and you like
855
01:07:37.960 --> 01:07:39.960
What appears to be a pump atom?
856
01:07:39.960 --> 01:07:42.200
Yes, that's a couple more times and they pop
857
01:07:43.000 --> 01:07:45.000
Oh, that's dig dug. Okay
858
01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:53.240
Okay, I thought they were they burst. Yes, they burst. Yes. Okay, very it's a very graphic game. You explode people
859
01:07:54.120 --> 01:07:55.880
Yeah, it's kind of wild
860
01:07:55.880 --> 01:08:00.760
Yeah, I think doom was like the first game I played. I was like gore and it was like what happened here
861
01:08:01.320 --> 01:08:03.320
That was insane. That's a good game
862
01:08:04.280 --> 01:08:08.680
All right, well great final note trash. I appreciate that you're welcome
863
01:08:09.400 --> 01:08:13.240
You know, I actually feel bad for making me bring the show together like I don't know man
864
01:08:13.240 --> 01:08:16.280
You got I we got to keep him on the show. I have like a very interesting
865
01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:19.800
We're just lack message. I was like reading it like near the animals like I
866
01:08:20.920 --> 01:08:26.840
I guess go Kasey what that means though too is we have to make sure trash never gets rich because apparently as soon as he gets rich
867
01:08:26.840 --> 01:08:28.840
He's leaving us behind
868
01:08:29.240 --> 01:08:34.200
Be like do not promote this man. He's questionable. See I get written in the sky full-time
869
01:08:38.440 --> 01:08:45.000
All right, oh my gosh, so by the way if anyone's if if we ever do a stand-up without the trash, you know why
870
01:08:46.040 --> 01:08:48.040
Yeah
871
01:08:48.040 --> 01:08:50.040
What's the what's the meme where it's like
872
01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:56.920
It if I become rich like there will be signs how what's the phrase? I won't it won't be obvious, but there will be signs
873
01:08:56.920 --> 01:09:02.840
You guys know that yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it's trash not it's our podcast with three people
874
01:09:05.640 --> 01:09:11.480
The one the one episode before that happens the room he's in right now will just be it'll just be all
875
01:09:11.480 --> 01:09:18.120
Pokemon's are all like he's kind of like being crushed slowly by the cheer that is the dream yeah
876
01:09:18.440 --> 01:09:20.440
That is the dream hopefully we get there
877
01:09:21.240 --> 01:09:25.240
Yeah, all right. Well, thank you very much for joining us for the stand-up
878
01:09:25.480 --> 01:09:31.000
We didn't there was an alternative topic. We might have talked about today, which was GitHub's uh big performance push as well
879
01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:33.320
Talk about that. I was like, I guess we're not getting to that
880
01:09:33.560 --> 01:09:37.720
Yeah, this went on a little bit too long. So that's something we'll probably have to do another time maybe
881
01:09:38.120 --> 01:09:44.280
Anyways, thank you for joining us. The name is Kasey Miritori trash teach agenda
882
01:09:50.440 --> 01:09:53.160
Oh
1
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.000
Before we do a sweet intro, I want to do an even sweeter intro and I would love to hear about Trash's snack of the day
2
00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:11.960
But before we do that Trash, I think you've been prompting a little too much because I think I just caught you prompting right now
3
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Right before this they get it to a slack message at work, okay?
4
00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:22.400
What the dude you were spawned manually to slack messages
5
00:00:23.500 --> 00:00:25.500
1987 calls
6
00:00:25.500 --> 00:00:28.900
I just realized I'm the only one in this group that has a real job
7
00:00:31.180 --> 00:00:33.180
But us real people
8
00:00:33.180 --> 00:00:37.180
Dude, okay, I'm not gonna let you guys when people say that to me on Twitter
9
00:00:37.180 --> 00:00:41.940
It does that that's how you can one guy me pretty good is saying that I'm just like mold
10
00:00:41.940 --> 00:00:43.940
Oh
11
00:00:48.980 --> 00:00:55.940
XOR posted the one of the guys who does shaders like you know this cool. Yeah, XOR is extra dev shout out
12
00:00:55.940 --> 00:00:56.940
XOR dev
13
00:00:56.940 --> 00:01:03.420
I and and he posted a poll that that was like how how is is it making your job more or less competitive?
14
00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:04.940
I think was he was asking
15
00:01:04.940 --> 00:01:09.300
So I was like where's the option for don't have real job don't know and you know
16
00:01:09.380 --> 00:01:14.580
So I'm okay with it. I you can't one guy me that way. I did you sense it about this prime
17
00:01:16.060 --> 00:01:20.900
It yeah, I am obviously I'm triggered. Okay, just let it go
18
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It's fair. I mean it's a ton of work doing like content stuff so much work that like it's more work than most normal jobs
19
00:01:29.580 --> 00:01:32.520
So like I don't know why people wouldn't think it's a job
20
00:01:32.520 --> 00:01:37.880
But well the thing that that thing that works me the most is that I internally put on timelines on myself
21
00:01:38.160 --> 00:01:42.440
And I try to build as much as possible so I'm not like a dummy when it comes to programming
22
00:01:42.440 --> 00:01:47.800
Yeah, and so you know, I'm learning I'm learning Odin right now having a great time. It's just like
23
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There's I know there's just like a couple things that get me and that's just one of those just I don't know why I got to let it go
24
00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:01.040
Fortunately, you only told us prime and not anybody else
25
00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:05.600
So that's not everyone's really gonna bring this up every day. Here's the thing though
26
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I'm sorry your program. You're learning to do what I never heard. I don't know what you're talking about. I
27
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Don't ever see an article about that in any that's not a lot of publication Odin
28
00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:23.720
I'm sorry. I like is that that's like some god. I think I looked it up
29
00:02:24.600 --> 00:02:30.160
I'm actually trying to figure out this whole God situation. Okay, so I'm starting with Odin. You know the Norse fruits
30
00:02:31.040 --> 00:02:38.480
Yeah, quick point of contention. Does that make Odin the Norse god a notable character is in our is Wikipedia saying he's real like can't
31
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Odin the language be a fictitious programming language created out of thin air by ginger bill right?
32
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I don't know. I just need to know if wired magazine has ever talked about the the Norse god Odin if they have then I'm told that he
33
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Probably exists. That's what I would say anyway. Believe it
34
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And he's probably and he's probably notable that right? I would assume he's notable. Yeah
35
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If some wired magazine author talked about their their imaginary friend when they were 12 then that's notable because hey
36
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They wrote it in wired magazine
37
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Man the power that's
38
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Why are they going to circle back really quick on the real job thing that trash brought up
39
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I was just saying trash if you want we can help you join the rest of us
40
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Yeah, that's true and I also would like to throw out there trash is the only person with a real job
41
00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:40.040
Why are you here during the work day? Yeah, that is a good good question T.J. I you're trying to make me join you
42
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What's your what's your current slack status? I just want to know what is your current status is it green?
43
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This is the worst I hate when we bring up my truck
44
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It says out of office until 11 30
45
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Thank you
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So 30 is for the podcast that's every day
47
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podcast
48
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I make up for this time though. I make sure I work extra hard for an hour and a half
49
00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:12.040
Don't worry trash the recording is going they they know it's happening. Yeah, I hate the trash
50
00:04:12.040 --> 00:04:17.240
Everyone I know is apparently when you show up in office they're like yo, it's trash from the standout
51
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Hey, is that HTTP get that out of here?
52
00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:26.440
That's that how we order coffee we order coffee by a SSH terminal dot shop. Yeah, you want a real experience
53
00:04:26.520 --> 00:04:31.080
You want real coffee you want awesome subscriptions, so you never have to remember again
54
00:04:31.320 --> 00:04:39.160
Oh, you want exclusive blends with exclusive coffee and exclusive content then check out cron you don't know what SSH is
55
00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:42.120
Well, maybe the coffee is not for you
56
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Not myself conscious
57
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I'm gonna work so hard today. Okay. Oh, you're gonna problem. It's so good. You're gonna open up
58
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Oh, I got kick off an agent. So I don't feel so bad about being yeah, yeah, kick one off
59
00:05:04.760 --> 00:05:09.240
All right, Tratch, what's the snack of the day? You got to give us a little bit of the snack of the day. This is my blocker right now
60
00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:15.320
I have these giggles which are like a healthy version of skittles
61
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No thing and then you have to go healthy because you wait too many snacks
62
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Well, my wife is like very much into like anti-food dye stuff
63
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So this is like the candy you can get that doesn't have like the food dyes and my daughter's like allergic to some of that stuff
64
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So we're very okay, we're very like I'll learn about that and then we have these like Easter candy things
65
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Some and these gummies
66
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He has risen. Yes, and then I got or choose because I want to get breakfast right before this
67
00:05:37.960 --> 00:05:42.360
I just got here right on time. I got a quick workout in got my quick pump
68
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Eat a pancake and then spit on home. Do you eat any
69
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non-carbohydrate foods
70
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I don't know I can try not to yes
71
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You eat
72
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I'm like a big steak guy. Okay, so you do we oh by the way, we do need an update. This is true trash
73
00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:10.200
The receipts how are they going? How's your wife doing? What what kind of things have you been?
74
00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:18.280
It's really funny that you bring that up. It sounds like it. I use it specific. I use it for myself
75
00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:21.160
I use it for myself now
76
00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:23.480
So I could just like tell my wife what I'm doing the laundry
77
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And so I have a huge list of just laundry so then whenever something comes up
78
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I'm just going to pop it out. I don't know. So you have a laundry list
79
00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:38.200
Literally, especially what you made was a self promotion a household self promotion
80
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I have converted it to making me look good. Yep. That's smart trash. That's smart
81
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And I'm not bringing it up. I'm not bringing it up. It's just when something happens. I'm gonna be like check this out
82
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Check out all this laundry I did hit the scroll and then scroll all the way baby
83
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So that's how I've been doing it. She has a bunch on me actually, which is not a good thing. But it's okay
84
00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:02.920
All right, all right. It's okay. What about on your side? Are you still getting receded? Okay
85
00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:07.880
Trash I went to the truth. I went to my wife and we talked about it
86
00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:12.280
And she said I'm not going to use receipts because it's too toxic
87
00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:16.360
I'm so shy as woman
88
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Wait a second though. Wait a second
89
00:07:20.440 --> 00:07:25.000
Should I destroy prime that to me sounds like
90
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Trash just needs to work on the PR because that to me sounds like a reluctant
91
00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:34.760
I'm not going to use it like I wanted to use this to document
92
00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:38.280
Oh the crap that you're doing prime
93
00:07:38.520 --> 00:07:44.760
But I don't want to do it because it sounds a little too bad. So if if like if Trash changes the messaging to like
94
00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:47.720
Help your husband become a better
95
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Right come along side
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On his journey to adulthood
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Trash just needs PR he needs a PR we need to spin this for him and then this thing has go into the moon man
98
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I've already moved on to my next
99
00:08:02.200 --> 00:08:04.200
unethical thing
100
00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:09.400
I started building a bot army so I can get Pokemon cards
101
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I've been working on it
102
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It's actually so complicated
103
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I love that you're building this trash because you're building it for good purposes so that you can actually just get
104
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Pokemon's yourself without getting into a fist fight at a machine
105
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The good guy, but don't you become the bad guy once you're using a bot army?
106
00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:33.800
Well, I'm not making like a so like typically these boss people
107
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I can't even make that many because there's like a lot of complicated reasons
108
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But I'm just gonna make a handful just to like up my chances slightly
109
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It's not gonna actually trash. I have a MacBook mini. I will let you I will let you use it if you want to use it until you can get at least
110
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I will use it trash
111
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You write stuff that gets deployed on every Netflix computer right
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Dude try to be heard a spinnaker
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There's this like Nintendo has to shut off like all of Netflix's ip's because all of a sudden
114
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It's just like this massive like Pokemon buying spree
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Just wait till this wall gets super high. That's when you're gonna know my bots working is working. Yep. All right
116
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That's what you know. Can is there any possibility we could intro? We could actually start
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Welcome to the stand-up today. We have an extremely special episode for everybody that's washing the stand-up for those that don't know
118
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This is the world's most attended stand-up
119
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Congratulations everyone for being a part of it. I hope everybody has their blockers. They're ready
120
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Yep, thank you. Thank you
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Still up paid still up paid the interns are always unpaid
122
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But you guys the things is that I love you with the love of a CEO. Okay. I just want you to know that right now
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I was talking about valuable work experience that someday could land you a paying job right
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Someday you guys will get paid
125
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Just not here
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So don't get some coffee. Yeah, go give me some coffee. All right now today are very special episode
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It has to do Casey. I was absolutely fascinated with some of the tweets you were making because windows 11
128
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Actually, well to be fair. We got to back this up a little bit about a couple of months ago
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Satya released a note of intent saying that windows
130
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Here's you we are going to win back the consumer is exactly what he said and the first major patch since that announcement
131
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Just came out and that exact patch contained a new and improved windows run dialogue
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And so this is a part of their major push to make performance more top of mind at least that is what windows 11
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Explicitly said and as part of their announcement they said
134
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This is the fastest that the run dialogue has ever been ever
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Evie are like this is the best it has ever been
136
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Here we go and they
137
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Announced it and it takes approximately 90 milliseconds to show on screen on the median
138
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So the 50 percentile so we don't know what we don't know what like the 25th percentile
139
00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.040
We don't know the quartiles here. So we have no idea what's going on
140
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But we do know that the median is 90 approximately 90 milliseconds
141
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It was 94 I think might have been what they said yeah, I don't know how they measure that that seems really impressive considering most displays don't
142
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You know, they're usually locked to some number that probably doesn't land on 94 every time
143
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I don't exactly know how they're measuring that but nonetheless
144
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That's what they're saying
145
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Absolutely impressed with this performance, but then Casey you did a little bit of snooping
146
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I did so I actually didn't uh, so I
147
00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:56.360
I really didn't I didn't care because like I said, I don't use windows really like any more week
148
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We kind of we kind of nixed that
149
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Uh pun intended and uh, so like I'm just like it's a it's kind of just a like all right you guys you know
150
00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:11.080
You can do your rodeo now or you decide to try and make windows performing or whatever. That's fine
151
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um, but
152
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What I was gonna say is
153
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Originally, I only saw this because Tim Swini was commenting on it
154
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I think he was said something snide like you know, it's he said it was 94 milliseconds for this you know
155
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Performance top of mind rewrite. It's like a gaming monitor is like you know eight milliseconds to refresh a frame like what's go
156
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You know what's going on
157
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Um, and so the only thing I really did was just retreat. I'm like okay
158
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Popping up the run dialogue like is is like a drop to 10 fps right
159
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Because that's what you know, it's like 11 fps. I think would be if you rounded 94 milliseconds
160
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It'd be like it'd be you know be like 10.6
161
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Frames a second or something if that's was your run rate
162
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And nobody cared about the run dialogue for the most part
163
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Pretty much people just cared about the fact that I used it fps as a way to like explain what the number was
164
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Now remind you I'm not posting anything original here at all
165
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I literally just like here is the screenshot of the thing that Tim Swini posted
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Or was replying to rather um, and I'm just like and I highlighted it and I was like they were like perftop of mind 94 milliseconds
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and I was like
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Geez like that'd be really split like 94 milliseconds is is a long time
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Especially because like when you think about what the run dialogue is
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It's not really like it's it's a user interface interaction. Well you hold on right there Casey
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There's processes that they have to create well, I don't know what a process is but apparently it takes 90 milliseconds
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Yeah, so this was this was the thing um, where they were like
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Uh, a lot of people just had a problem with this and a lot of people's probably the wrong term like most
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You know, it was a very popular tweet actually so I suppose most people didn't have a problem with what I said um
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But for the people who did have a problem with that there were two things one is they were like well this is like you know
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Loading it's like how long so it takes to load
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Which to me is ridiculous because it's like no it's like a text box and maybe some history
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There's no there shouldn't be any loading like this should just be
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It's a trivial it's you're talking about like 4k or something of data that should be required to do this thing
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Like it's so minimal that you there's no question you shouldn't be launching your process for this in my mind right
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Maybe if you have some kind of weird process isolation thing going on because you're scared that someone's hacking your run dialogue
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But then at that point we should talk about why that's happening exactly and other things like that
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But you know there's a whole sort of thing so you could come back with some blog post where you explained like
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Here's why it has to be a process and maybe I'd be like okay
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But in general no like that should not be if the user doesn't perceive them to be loading something
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Then that's not really acceptable excuse a so I didn't think anyone who replied with that
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I don't think they have any leg to stand on so sorry like I just completely disagree with you. This is not a load operation
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But that was relatively minor that was I felt like that was just as you as you folks say and as the kids say that was just
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Cope that was just like trying to come up with another 94 was some cope
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Yeah, um a little bit of cope and also launching notes so you can use react that's all
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The bigger the bigger thing was um
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Was they didn't like the use of fps?
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I and this to me is like I can
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If you if you don't want to use fps as a way to like talk about how things
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Feel and how long they take right
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That's totally valid in my opinion meaning I would never go to somebody who quoted milliseconds and say whoa whoa
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Sun you should be saying fps
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I wouldn't do this house
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In this house we measure with fps exactly like I would never I would never do that
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If I did that to somebody and they were like dude
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I quote these things in milliseconds. That's how I do it. I'd be like ah sorry like I was yeah
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I was mean to dick. I shouldn't have done that or whatever right like that
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I would feel bad about that if I did that right
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Not so with these people these super like
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You cannot quote fps numbers unless apparently
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Um because some there's some like internet committee that like must have decided this
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fps has to be average fps. Yes, it's it is it's so casey you may not know this but if in a video game in a video game
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If you fire a gun, but you only fire it once
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It takes 90 milliseconds. That's just part of that's just hey that's just loading
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It only counts if you repetitively fire it
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And again like people were mad though casey because the run
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Thing is kind of like you know anthropic sort of started the trend everything's a game engine casey
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Well, so it's like they were
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So I don't know it's not a fair fps measure okay
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All I'm saying is so it what I would say is
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If that's the way you want to quote things that's totally fine because I like having both
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My preference is to see both so I like to see the
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milliseconds and then I like to convert that to fps in my head so I can see like if I was hitting monitor refresh because the way that I usually like to program
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Anything that's like a user interaction is I like to hit monitor refresh for like what I expect the target monitor refresh to be
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So if someone pushes a button then like from the time that that button comes in
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I want to try on the frame that it came in
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I want to try to have the response to it on the frame that's submitted at that time right
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So you push a button on one frame and the next frame that you see as quote like should have it now sometimes
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It's two frames because like there's a compositor in the way
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Sometimes it's more if the tv sucks and it's buffering a lot so it's like there's reasons why that can start to multiply out
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But the way I like to think of it is like okay at least for the code
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Like you know for telemetry which I assume is where this number is coming from if you timed from like when the the event happens and when someone actually got a frame
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I want to see something close to monitor refresh or twice monitor refresh depending on what you're counting there right
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um
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And so this is actually legitimate the way I think about it like like like that was not I think people were saying or were
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trying to
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Impune to me the fact that I was trying to make it sound worse than it is by using fps
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And I guess what I would say is that is like no ant or yes and no
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I I do think of it that way and yes
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I suppose the reason I use that number is because I actually believe it's bad like when you're not getting monitor refresh that
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I think you did something wrong probably right
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It's like especially if it's just I'm popping up a text box or some UI thing
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I just think you did something wrong you should you should be it monitor refresh just period
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And if you don't agree with that that's fine like you can just be like no
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I like my things to be more more laggy than that um
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You can totally make an argument that uh you just don't care
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You're like look a hundred milliseconds is what I think is reasonable for response to UI. So that's what I do
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Uh totally fine too
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But like claiming that fps is a bad way to do it. I totally disagree
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I think fps is a very good way for someone to have in their head like oh am I close to monitor refresh like I know
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I should be hitting 60 it's just a good like metric to have and if you want me to convert that so I always say 16.6666666666666666667
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Instead six I suppose I can say that for you did did that help if I change it from fps to hurts what like I mean
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Well cycles per second presumably they'd say again it has to be average for some reason
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I don't know why those are not intrinsic to the measurement frames per second
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Just means you took account of frames and you divided by a time right and it does not imply that there was
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Any more than even one actually
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Technically, you probably need to have two to measure something between but like you know
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So anyway, I found all of that ridiculous and
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Very disheartening because it's just I I was like this is ridiculous
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All of that all of this for something that as far as I can tell isn't actually relevant anyway like because
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Uh for a couple reasons
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But here's the first one
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They said in that same post that the original run dialogue experience was 104 milliseconds
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And the thing they were really yeah was 94 milliseconds. That's what they said in the post right no
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No, no, not not not not that post right. I thought it was 400 milliseconds. I can't be real
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No, it was in them in the blog post that I saw I think it was 104 from on microsoft blog
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They were like the original one was 104 this one's like 94 or something like that or 98 or I don't like I don't know the exact numbers
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But they were both very close to 100 like one was less than 110 the other was less than 100 right so between 90 and 100
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I remember half of the measurements are above 100 or above 94 to remember that's just the median
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Well, sorry. Yeah, well, I'm just saying
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So um, I was curious about that because I was like I don't know how they're measuring it right because there's different ways you can measure it
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If you're if you're talking about like a latency chain
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Where you press a physical button and then see something
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It's pretty easy to get a response time to go up to something like a hundred milliseconds
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If you have slow mouse slow USB processing the operating systems a little slow your code is a little slow
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The monitor buffer several or the GPU is buffering several frames the monitors buffering some more frames
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I could construct a situation where some code that responded potentially like like my little piece
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Of code that responds
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Instantly still is taking a hundred milliseconds because everyone else in the chain is screwing me right
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This is a thing that people who have ever measured latency with like a camera
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No, you can easily start to beef that up right yeah, or you've ever actually played a game on a TV set to non gaming mode
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And all of a sudden you can you can feel it when you're playing Mario. You're like oh, what is happening?
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Am I I can't jump anymore? That's why I'm loses in games. That's actually why I've been on TV mode
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I didn't know that I've been on TV mode. I didn't know that. That's why I lost a fortnight
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Yeah, we used to watch a lot of TVs
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Yeah, when he used to do that doc when he used to be doc dr. Disrespect and do that channel
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He had to stop playing competitive games and treat create this primogen thing specifically because of this you know
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Teed he had a TV that was buffering too many frames. He couldn't win anymore
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There's Call of Duty career went down the toilet and here we are on the standup
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But that's ancient history now no sense dwelling on the past the point is
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Um, so I don't know where they get this number
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Right. I don't think Casey knows. We'll just keep on going
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He let's just say hit the end of his career as a oh, yeah, no, it was not that no
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Yeah, yeah, it was let's say that it
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Anyways drive
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It was not minecraft, but anyway, um, the point is
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Uh, when we uh look at these kind of numbers. Who knows how they're measured right like nobody knows right
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Um, because they weren't discussed
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So we know that they were statistical meaning they said it was like a median so meaning
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We we know that they were talking cross a number of machines right
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Uh, a number of configurations probably meaning it's telemetry meaning it probably comes from end user machines
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But it's hard to say because again, I don't I don't know exactly what their setup is for doing this
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But I was curious about that because I was like, you know that sounds really high actually from my recollection of the run dialogue
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I was like I don't think it takes a hundred and four milliseconds
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From end of click to showing the run dialogue
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On unlike windows 10 for example
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That by the way, this is a very important part because remember the post said this is the fastest
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ever
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Right which it may well be as to mean forever. It does mean forever, which is right which is uh, which good point is what I'm trying to get to
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So the part that confused me was I was like where did that number come from so like on the on windows 10
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I tried testing the existing run dialogue which obviously is not the updated one
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And I did a 60 hertz capture now. I know that 60 hertz will make people very uncomfortable
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So what I mean to say is a capture where the frames were capped to 16.66666666667 milliseconds
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How many cases is that in uh Deca frames per hour? That's my concern
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That's the only unit that I prefer discussing so just
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What is the 60 in 60 is a per an hour um, I don't know
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So uh, so I captured it and captured a bunch of me
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Running their you know doing the run dialogue and just to see what it was and it always responded in two frames
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Which would be you know somewhere in the 30 millisecond range depending on
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Again, if you were trying to include mouse clicks or something. I don't know
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But assuming you were doing telemetry from a machine then you can't do that because you don't have a high-speed camera sitting on it
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So I'm assuming they're recording something like that and so I don't so I don't know now
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So if they're using um that number 104 as a median
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Well, I tested this on a machine that's a decade old. It's nine years old, right? So it's a very old machine
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What are they testing across such that they're able to get a number that's three times higher than that as the median right?
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I don't know and since I don't know now. I have no idea what's going on
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So I don't know where the 100 millisecond number goes
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A comes from but the reason I say this might just be much to do about nothing
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is because
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If that number is similarly inflated and the 94 is similarly inflated the actual number for a response time might be much better
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It might be that number divided by three which would again be two frames, which is fine right?
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Um much much better than the uh, you know
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drastically increased three times latency one that it sounded like it was going to be which everyone
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I think would have been correct kind of freak out about because like
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They're all used in experience where it's one or two frames to pop up that run dialog and now it's taking three times longer
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That would be annoying
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So I I really don't know what's going on here. I feel like they needed to um
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If they were going to make a post about performance and they didn't want people to comment on it
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They needed to put more information in there that would be clearer about what's going on
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And also blaming people for having a reaction to this especially when they just quote the like they just put a quote and be like
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I think what I said is am I reading this right? That's what I said to get really mad at someone who said am I reading this right?
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This sounds really slow is ridiculous like that's what makes x so crap
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the only response to that should be
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Uh, either yes, you're reading it right. This is kind of slow for popping up a run dialog because that shouldn't really be any work or
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Yes, you were reading it wrong
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Actually that hundred milliseconds is this really bad way we measure it where we measure it from the start of the click to when we show it
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And since we can't launch to the person releases the mouse button
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That's an extra 50 milliseconds that's just padded on there right like
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That is the answer to this not some snide like you can't use epi like it's just it was garbage like I really didn't like the responses that I felt like they were
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Ridiculous and so like I'm pretty I'm pretty thumbs down on what people said
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That is my annoyance with it the happy news though is I think I think
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Uh, what's going to happen is the run dialog will probably be fine um, I can't say for sure
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But I think these numbers are not like they're not measuring either what we think we're they're measuring or they somewhere in
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Their test suite have 10,000
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Really old buggy laptops that take an extra 70 milliseconds to do this operation and they're skewing the median or something right like like some explanation like that
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So until we get more information
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I think this is just a dead issue except for the fact that people out there who think fps isn't a good way to intuit response times
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I think you're totally wrong
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I they're okay. I got to jump in case he's so there is something about all of this that you're really missing
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And I would just like to I would love to hear trash is a pinion on this one which is
356
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Trash you've worked at Netflix now since the great fall like trash joined and Netflix dropped by 60%
357
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Uh effectively is what happened
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That was 70% anyways, they heard that he was coming
359
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Yeah, they heard that he was coming he joins the company Netflix went from 690 to 170 or something like that
360
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It was a direct is a disastrous moment for us
361
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Anyway, so you have like a bunch of like stock from when you work there that track was treated trash
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I did everybody a friend your retirement even everybody a favor. He helped
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To people for a decade, so thank you trash for that everybody
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Trash
365
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Everyone give trash a clap. This is why he's still at Netflix. Get those options down so they can go back up
366
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Yes, exactly. There you go. Casey Stonkin right there. Anyway, so we've been at like you've worked on a product that's sensitive to
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Any sort of code right because the TV platform is just it's a very hard platform
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It's a much slower platform than everything else
369
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Now trash have you ever once heard anybody at all in any point in life ever talk about response times in frames
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No
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Yeah, Casey, so this is something that you might not know but in the web world
372
00:29:50.280 --> 00:29:56.760
Nobody has ever once thought of something in terms of frames. I don't think I like this is a whole novel concept of you being like
373
00:29:58.760 --> 00:30:02.920
Next monitor refresh rate something to happen like no one's ever said that ever
374
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:10.760
That would that would explain the disconnect probably because to me, so I like obviously I was
375
00:30:12.120 --> 00:30:15.720
Raised I don't know if that's the correct term to catch on fire
376
00:30:16.280 --> 00:30:19.480
um, so I was raised in the era of
377
00:30:20.040 --> 00:30:26.200
During the Thanksgiving Blank. Yeah, R.A. Z. Ed. Yeah, it was good for I'm nice vocabulary buddy
378
00:30:26.520 --> 00:30:29.000
Okay, Casey continue on with things something smart. Please
379
00:30:29.800 --> 00:30:31.800
It's not smart. It's historical
380
00:30:32.760 --> 00:30:36.280
What you normally would do right is you try to have it so that you know
381
00:30:36.280 --> 00:30:41.000
You update your stuff during the vertical blank of like a CRT right it like the scan line comes down
382
00:30:41.080 --> 00:30:45.400
You update your stuff and you come back around to the top and you need to have everything done in that time
383
00:30:45.560 --> 00:30:51.560
Like for the next right so you're always I mean the the phrase racing the beam like made it into the title of a book
384
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:53.720
I think right and that's what that
385
00:30:53.800 --> 00:31:02.040
Was referring to you're racing the beam the like the the actual like CRT like display beam right that the thing that excites the phosphorus on the screen
386
00:31:02.760 --> 00:31:07.320
um of a cathode rate tube right and then went from there to like
387
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:10.040
I
388
00:31:10.040 --> 00:31:17.240
In sort of like the Carmack era of gaming like when like the quake engine kind of ushered in 3d and these sort of stuff in in a big way
389
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:20.040
um
390
00:31:20.040 --> 00:31:26.120
At that point like I believe he had a thing and I don't remember if this was like something that he said
391
00:31:27.080 --> 00:31:31.560
In like person that I remember him saying or whether it was something that he posted in like a plan file
392
00:31:32.360 --> 00:31:34.680
Um, but I remember him being like look
393
00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:37.400
If you structure your
394
00:31:38.040 --> 00:31:40.040
Update loop in one way
395
00:31:40.280 --> 00:31:47.000
Where you like do your rendering is where you issue your rendering you you update the world do issue rendering and then process input
396
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:49.400
um
397
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:53.640
You lose a little bit of time because some of the input maybe you could have gotten
398
00:31:54.280 --> 00:31:59.240
A little bit before like just before you were about to submit the the render or something like like there was a thing
399
00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:04.040
Where he was talking about that and I was I was like oh, okay. Yeah, I probably should always be very
400
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:06.440
thoughtful of like
401
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:15.000
How can I make sure I get input as close as possible to submission so that I'm introducing the least like the little smallest amount
402
00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:17.400
of latency
403
00:32:17.560 --> 00:32:23.560
Uh, especially if you have something like a v-sync on where you're going to like if you like processed input and then waited on v-sync
404
00:32:24.040 --> 00:32:27.320
Then came around and did your render now. There's an even bigger gap between those things right
405
00:32:28.360 --> 00:32:32.520
And so uh, I've always I'm always used to think of it is it frames
406
00:32:32.520 --> 00:32:36.760
So input comes in on a frame you should see it on the next frame as close as I can make it
407
00:32:36.760 --> 00:32:40.920
I don't want to be the weak link in that chain. I want it to be the TV that screwing you not me
408
00:32:41.560 --> 00:32:43.080
So I've always thought of it that way
409
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:49.080
So I always think of it as fps and especially nowadays when like you know when I do ping times
410
00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:53.480
On like the network here even on this crappy comcast connection that I'm on
411
00:32:54.120 --> 00:32:59.240
um most uh network on modern broadband internet the actual ping time
412
00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:01.880
Out from the person
413
00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:06.120
Uh to like a local to something that's close to them is actually sub monitor refresh
414
00:33:06.520 --> 00:33:09.720
Like you can actually get a network packet to someone and back
415
00:33:10.520 --> 00:33:14.840
In less time than like a 60 hertz refresh. That's how good this stuff has gotten
416
00:33:14.840 --> 00:33:21.000
You know people on fiber are getting sub one millisecond ping times to things like the nearest google node, right
417
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:22.360
It's incredible
418
00:33:22.360 --> 00:33:28.280
And so nowadays I just think everything should be thought that way like it's just it's just look the fastest we can
419
00:33:28.600 --> 00:33:33.960
The reason to do it in frames that's the fastest we can get something out to the user like what's the lowest
420
00:33:34.760 --> 00:33:41.160
Uh amount of time this monitor can hit that's what we should be shooting for and sometimes it's unrealistic because it's like okay
421
00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:43.720
They're on like some foot north of 500
422
00:33:44.520 --> 00:33:46.040
Hertz monitor
423
00:33:46.040 --> 00:33:51.560
The operation we're doing is to heavyweight so we got to set a more conservative frame target totally fine
424
00:33:52.120 --> 00:33:58.120
But I I never think of it in terms of anything other than that because that's our limit. That's what I can give you the frames at
425
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.440
Yeah
426
00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:05.960
Yeah, I mean, they do in the even in the world where we do think about a ps especially for like
427
00:34:06.520 --> 00:34:09.880
animated heavy websites when you notice we see like jank it's like stuttering
428
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:13.320
That's typically when we'll actually take into account like fps
429
00:34:13.560 --> 00:34:15.320
But yeah, honestly most apps like
430
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:18.120
Aren't really doing any animations. It's all just async
431
00:34:18.600 --> 00:34:25.640
Crud apps just waiting for something right? So it's a more of how long this take to load which we'll use time like most seconds
432
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:27.960
Verse
433
00:34:30.120 --> 00:34:35.240
I think ttfb is that what I'm hearing a little bit of that a little bit of time the first bite a little bit at
434
00:34:36.120 --> 00:34:39.480
I feel like that is sort of a separate thing too is like um
435
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:46.040
You know to me the user should see the response instantaneously even if the thing takes a little while
436
00:34:46.040 --> 00:34:50.360
So like suppose I'm on some network and I'm like look it's AWS
437
00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:56.920
So you know good luck getting this response back in in less than 30 milliseconds because like even though the data center is
438
00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:03.320
Is like two milliseconds of of of hop away or something as soon as it hits AWS
439
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:07.480
It's just grinds to a halt right and like that's been my experience
440
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:12.920
And it was like the the late the time it takes light to get to the data center has nothing to do with how long to take that
441
00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:16.360
They are just going to chew through those milliseconds doing whatever it is that they do
442
00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:20.520
With like they're switching and you know virtual machine management or whatever it is
443
00:35:20.520 --> 00:35:21.800
You know, I don't work there. I have no idea
444
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:30.040
So assuming you're going to do that you're like look we're not going to hit 60 Hertz or 120 Hertz because we know this thing is going to take like 40 milliseconds to get back from AWS
445
00:35:30.680 --> 00:35:34.280
I still want to show the thing immediately so like for the case of a run dialogue
446
00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:37.880
Let's say for whatever reason I can't predict it. I don't know these are going to do it
447
00:35:38.120 --> 00:35:43.000
I have to fetch their run history from AWS for some reason because like it's oh it's a shared
448
00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:48.040
It's like a synced run history across machines. I didn't know they were on this machine or so
449
00:35:48.040 --> 00:35:51.000
I mean, I don't know how that doesn't make any sense. I should have sunk this ahead of time. But whatever
450
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:56.760
I would fire off that request but display the run dialogue on the next frame
451
00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:03.320
Right because I know that by the time they're actually able to hit the first key that I'll need to search that run dialogue for
452
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:12.440
I probably will get at least some of that information back and so I'm covering a little bit of that latency and giving the user the instant response that I want to give them right
453
00:36:13.640 --> 00:36:19.640
And then if you know the response doesn't come back and they do hit a key and I'm sitting there and I'm like AWS not loading
454
00:36:19.640 --> 00:36:23.400
Then I have to put up a little spinner or something right just tell them like look
455
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:29.640
AWS is is dick in me here. So I get it like you know run history not available to later. WS respond to the little thing
456
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:36.280
But you know, that's just how I think about it. So like I'm not being disingenuous. That is literally how I think about it
457
00:36:37.080 --> 00:36:41.400
And it pisses me off in games too like if I'm sitting there waiting for a loading screen that you
458
00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:46.360
I'm like guys you obviously could have streamed this in like why wasn't this already loaded like what's going on
459
00:36:46.520 --> 00:36:51.400
I get mad at that all the time. I'm just like the the goal should be zero weight states for the user pretty much ever
460
00:36:52.600 --> 00:36:56.040
So we've had a lot of arguments about this over over the years and
461
00:36:56.840 --> 00:36:58.840
who you end
462
00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:01.080
My previous team
463
00:37:01.080 --> 00:37:03.080
Shall we say and so one of the one of the big things was
464
00:37:03.560 --> 00:37:09.640
What's worse the initial loading or in app loading like which one actually makes a user more nuts
465
00:37:10.680 --> 00:37:15.480
Which one's going to cause them to be more upset would you rather have a bunch of small distributed little loads
466
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:18.680
Throughout the app or would you rather have a bigger initial load
467
00:37:20.200 --> 00:37:23.000
So in my mind usually so
468
00:37:24.680 --> 00:37:29.160
I would say that if I find myself in that literal position
469
00:37:30.120 --> 00:37:33.720
Then my answer would be how often do they load this thing
470
00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:37.000
but
471
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:40.680
Before finding myself now because I would have asked the question are you sure
472
00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:48.360
Are you sure that you couldn't find a way to make this work because a lot of times if people are like oh
473
00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:55.960
We have no choice but this long initial load. I'm like are you sure like are you sure that you actually did everything you could
474
00:37:56.600 --> 00:37:57.960
To make that
475
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:03.880
Initial package you needed to get started as small as possible right well. I'm on team bigger load
476
00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:07.640
Initially that's if the app is but obviously within a threshold
477
00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:12.760
If the app is loaded infrequently then if you have to make that trade off
478
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:16.680
I would say you do that if the app is loaded all the time because you like typically load this thing
479
00:38:16.680 --> 00:38:21.240
Do a little tiny thing and then close it then you're kind of in this nasty situation where it's like
480
00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:27.080
Okay, well, I don't know it's it's sort of just as bad right like because you know
481
00:38:27.080 --> 00:38:30.680
So I would say I wouldn't think about those things as different
482
00:38:30.680 --> 00:38:35.160
I would just say there's frequency of operation and cost of operation
483
00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:41.560
And you're trying to minimize the total of those right the cost times the you know the cost times the frequency
484
00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:47.240
And so if the frequency of launching this app is very high and the frequency of things you do in the app is very low
485
00:38:47.560 --> 00:38:52.920
Then maybe it would make sense to actually try to minimize your app load time, but in general I would say like
486
00:38:54.680 --> 00:38:58.360
99% of the time when someone's like oh, I needed to do X
487
00:38:58.600 --> 00:39:04.200
So that's why there's a long load time here. I'm like no, you didn't like I can think of tons of ways that I could have not done it that way
488
00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:09.720
Right like strip this out don't do it that way have a low quality version of that thing you stream in first
489
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:13.480
Right like think mega texture right or
490
00:39:14.120 --> 00:39:16.360
Level of detail would be a better way to think of it right
491
00:39:17.720 --> 00:39:21.000
I know that I have something I can display for this thing
492
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:23.960
It may not be the best looking version of that thing
493
00:39:24.200 --> 00:39:31.320
So if I'm caught by surprise I do that right away and then increase its resolution when I can right things like this
494
00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:36.600
Or you can typically do things to try and make sure that you're very responsive and you know
495
00:39:36.600 --> 00:39:40.040
If you then decide like okay, no, we can't do that because this thing has to be saber scene link
496
00:39:40.040 --> 00:39:45.000
Sure, you can always paint yourself into a quarter where you where you absolutely have to this thing and then I agree you do
497
00:39:45.080 --> 00:39:49.240
But I would make sure all those avenues are exhausted first is I guess what I would say
498
00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:53.960
Yeah, we do have like some techniques that we call or that we coin call like progressive enhancement
499
00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:56.040
Which is yeah exactly the shittiest thing
500
00:39:56.040 --> 00:40:01.400
But if you have a good machine then we'll slowly enhance your experience, right? Which I think is fair
501
00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:04.120
But just go ahead god
502
00:40:04.200 --> 00:40:07.960
No, so just to try and get that nice responsive feel because you know
503
00:40:08.840 --> 00:40:11.560
And that's again, that's just because that's the way I like things
504
00:40:11.560 --> 00:40:13.480
I like things to be very responsive
505
00:40:13.560 --> 00:40:18.120
Maybe some people just don't care they like they push the right button on something
506
00:40:18.120 --> 00:40:20.200
You know if you open up next, I should push the rights button
507
00:40:20.200 --> 00:40:22.200
It takes a while kind of lagging it goes
508
00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:27.720
I'm like that sucks like so much should fix this right if someone else might be like I don't know it's fine
509
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:33.480
Right, and so and so it really depends on who you're talking to probably what their preference is on those two things right
510
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:34.680
I don't know
511
00:40:34.680 --> 00:40:38.040
Does that make sense like you know some people might be fine with that some people might not be yeah
512
00:40:38.040 --> 00:40:39.640
I mean it's hard to
513
00:40:39.640 --> 00:40:43.000
Everyone has a different threshold really the tolerate right yeah
514
00:40:43.080 --> 00:40:46.360
So yeah, it's hard like who do you optimize for like there's nothing I hate worse
515
00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:49.000
I would hate to have a quick experience like load
516
00:40:49.560 --> 00:40:54.200
Or like a quick loading experience, but then every time I click something it's like ah exactly now
517
00:40:54.200 --> 00:40:59.480
We got to have not that thing yeah, I think that's like significantly worse in my because the clicking is more frequent
518
00:40:59.560 --> 00:41:03.720
Right, it's that's I say like it's frequency versus cost if you're gonna click a hundred times in this thing
519
00:41:03.720 --> 00:41:09.640
But only load it once you don't want the hundred things to each take the long time and the one thing to be fast
520
00:41:09.640 --> 00:41:12.440
Right, that's not helping anybody right, so yeah
521
00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:16.360
That's what all my banking software looks like I got like open like my banking dashboard
522
00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:21.000
It's just like 20 spinners and then I click something else and it's like 40 more spinners
523
00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:27.080
I'm like who's making these banking ads? It's also just got so many zeros in his you know
524
00:41:27.080 --> 00:41:31.720
It's just such a full bank account they're spinning forever to figure out what's in his account
525
00:41:32.680 --> 00:41:37.240
Because you know it's getting added to trash is bad account. It's like oh my goodness
526
00:41:37.240 --> 00:41:39.880
We have to widen this div. It's crazy
527
00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:45.400
What
528
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:47.400
That's just you make sense trash
529
00:41:48.200 --> 00:41:50.200
You're not working right now
530
00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:53.800
I want to be working
531
00:41:53.800 --> 00:41:59.960
That's what I'm saying aren't you having fun hanging out with us when you still be on the bottom trash?
532
00:42:01.160 --> 00:42:03.160
You're not paid to be on this
533
00:42:03.560 --> 00:42:05.560
Oh
534
00:42:11.560 --> 00:42:13.560
Oh red button blue button
535
00:42:17.720 --> 00:42:19.720
Oh, no
536
00:42:19.720 --> 00:42:23.320
I'm answering from now on when people ask that red blue question
537
00:42:23.560 --> 00:42:27.800
I'm giving trash his answer. It's the best answer I've ever heard and I loved it. It was so good
538
00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:33.800
I don't like it. I was thinking about the question deserved it was perfect
539
00:42:33.800 --> 00:42:38.760
I like I that was a teachable moment for me and I have learned from trash and I am a better person. You're welcome
540
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:42.200
That's my opinion. Anyway, I really wanted to for the full episode
541
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:48.600
Just like play I thought about just having the edit be it does trash is answer and then we play everything else on
542
00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:53.800
16 x and then it just ends with Casey who's saying I hated this discussion
543
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:01.880
Haha, I thought people would enjoy the overall conversation
544
00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:05.880
But I did think about like publishing the full episode just with trash answering and then
545
00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:13.880
It was a good answer. It was freaking perfect dude. I loved it. My Microsoft has a bit of a hill to climb
546
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:17.080
Because I am just gonna throw this out there
547
00:43:17.080 --> 00:43:23.720
I also get an like an update just recently that restarts my computer like six times before the update actually happens
548
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:28.600
And I just read an article from somewhere where it's just like it's actually totally normal
549
00:43:29.080 --> 00:43:34.120
That windows needs to up you know restarts your computer 15 times for an update like this is actually by design
550
00:43:34.600 --> 00:43:39.080
And so I think part of the problem that I I personally have is that they're like look at the run
551
00:43:39.720 --> 00:43:43.320
Dialogue performance and it's just like well that's something I virtually never use
552
00:43:45.080 --> 00:43:47.160
Because I just don't I mean I don't do development on there
553
00:43:47.160 --> 00:43:49.560
So I'm not opening something that needs that typically. I'm you know
554
00:43:49.560 --> 00:43:53.160
I'm opening a couple things that have pinned. I use windows in a very rookie way
555
00:43:53.720 --> 00:43:56.920
And so it's just like none of these improvements really help me
556
00:43:56.920 --> 00:43:59.240
I still run into bugs all the time like right now
557
00:44:00.040 --> 00:44:03.640
For whatever reason we're back into this state where when I create a folder
558
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:08.440
It's goes to the bottom of the list and not the top of the list like all the folders are on the top
559
00:44:08.520 --> 00:44:13.240
I created new when it goes to the bottom and so I have to leave and come back if I wanted up at the top again
560
00:44:13.240 --> 00:44:17.640
It's just like it's driving me bonkers again that there's so many little things are broken
561
00:44:17.640 --> 00:44:19.640
And I just want to like lose my marbles
562
00:44:20.040 --> 00:44:24.120
And then there's like bro, but run dialogue dog is so bad
563
00:44:24.120 --> 00:44:27.160
I did it, but they didn't say that what they said is
564
00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:33.720
We read we're we're putting in a new run dialogue that was made with performance top of mind
565
00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:38.280
And great news it's basically the exact same speed as the old one
566
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:45.400
Right that's what they said like nobody said that it actually substantially improved the run the performance
567
00:44:45.720 --> 00:44:49.880
So presumably what they were trying to say was we added some features
568
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:54.280
Right, I'm guessing I assume I mean, I don't know because I don't care
569
00:44:54.680 --> 00:45:01.160
This is the other thing that I hate about the fact that this tweet got I guess so many likes that people started replying to it with this
570
00:45:01.720 --> 00:45:03.720
crap about fps, but anyway
571
00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:06.280
um
572
00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:11.240
I'm assuming that the idea is they added a bunch of features and didn't make it slower which is good right
573
00:45:11.240 --> 00:45:13.960
I mean like I'm happy that they first time in a while
574
00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:17.640
Yeah, but at the same time it's like I wouldn't
575
00:45:18.520 --> 00:45:20.040
mention that
576
00:45:20.040 --> 00:45:27.880
Right, I wouldn't have cited some numbers and bid like hey like we're so proud of ourselves that we didn't slow down a run dialogue like I'm like
577
00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:32.440
Yeah, like like what that's like that's like
578
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:39.160
par for the course. I mean, what are you talking about like of course you shouldn't have slowed down the time it takes to open the run dialogue
579
00:45:39.560 --> 00:45:47.000
That's a blog post now like what's going on right? So that alone too is just very frustrating because you're like now you're getting mad at
580
00:45:47.640 --> 00:45:54.120
That you're getting mad at me for replying to somebody who replied to your thing where all you did
581
00:45:54.600 --> 00:46:00.680
Was say that the run dialogue takes 94 milliseconds, which is a hell of a lot of time for something to take
582
00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:05.560
And like how did we get here? You know, it's ridiculous. This shouldn't have even been news
583
00:46:05.560 --> 00:46:09.720
It shouldn't even have been posted. Well to be fair the person I got the person that most got mad at you
584
00:46:09.720 --> 00:46:16.920
Was actually a writer for something it wasn't that it was like a friend that could have owned in they could have got owned in a wikipedia page
585
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:23.240
But instead Casey you're now getting a wikipedia page being mr fps you know falsifier
586
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:26.760
Um, except it's not false. It is the it is the fps
587
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:29.560
But yes, like the question I have
588
00:46:30.520 --> 00:46:34.680
There would also be like could we you propose this trade
589
00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:39.720
I believe to Jimmy Wales on the previous episode. Let's propose it now
590
00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:42.360
I can go back and
591
00:46:42.600 --> 00:46:49.640
Delete my original tweet and post a new tweet where I put the millisecond number in place of where the fps number now
592
00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:55.640
Mind you my tweet had both because I quoted the millisecond number so it what it wasn't that I didn't
593
00:46:55.720 --> 00:47:03.080
Include that information right it was that they didn't like the even the fact that you could bring fps into it was just this
594
00:47:03.800 --> 00:47:06.040
Unholy, you know, absolutely
595
00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:08.920
Ridiculous thing to do but anyway
596
00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:12.360
I'll go back and delete that tweet and only mention milliseconds
597
00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:19.080
I won't mention fps anywhere in it in exchange for them writing a nice article about Odin
598
00:47:19.720 --> 00:47:22.280
Um, and how it's used that janga effects there we go
599
00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:27.880
That's a good deal. That's a good deal. That's a good deal. That's a good deal right. We all everyone wins
600
00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:33.400
Um, but I don't know if you know this but a kind of a little update
601
00:47:33.880 --> 00:47:40.200
Uh, this person named Phil which you can't really quite see well on my or the stream can't quite see it very well
602
00:47:40.520 --> 00:47:46.520
But Phil over here wrote his own version in which takes approximately 20 milliseconds to show up on screen
603
00:47:47.160 --> 00:47:50.360
And so he's able to show a dialogue super alter quick
604
00:47:51.240 --> 00:47:53.240
And his own handwritten one
605
00:47:53.640 --> 00:47:57.640
Yeah, but the problem with that is that like um
606
00:47:58.600 --> 00:48:02.680
I'm just I'm just gonna put myself in the mind space of the people who were replying to my tweet
607
00:48:03.080 --> 00:48:10.040
Okay, take a moment take a moment. Take a moment. Yeah, the problem with that is isn't that demonstration doesn't mean anything
608
00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:14.920
Because that person didn't run it on all the same machines and take the median
609
00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:20.440
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter
610
00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:22.920
It's meaningless because he has a different monitor
611
00:48:23.160 --> 00:48:30.760
Also, he's not loading he's not loading the run history from Microsoft OneDrive or whatever that it is that this thing does right
612
00:48:31.080 --> 00:48:36.920
So he's not doing the things I always get they're all ridiculous, but they're that they're like um, you know
613
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:39.000
It's not an apples to apples comparison
614
00:48:39.640 --> 00:48:43.480
You don't have all the features. It's the features uh, it's um
615
00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:50.120
It's the plugins you just don't you don't have plugins plugins everyone knows that as soon as there's a concept of a plugin
616
00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:54.280
Everything is takes several seconds to happen
617
00:48:54.920 --> 00:48:56.040
um
618
00:48:56.040 --> 00:49:00.840
Casey you know that's what he will get you people reply with with that crap to that person even though he did it right
619
00:49:01.080 --> 00:49:06.600
So Casey you're actually missing kind of like a really fun part of web dev uh, which goes a little something like this
620
00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:08.920
Which is all right
621
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:17.400
We're going to rewrite something and we're going to rewrite it and here's our kind of first implementation of it and it is 10 times
622
00:49:18.120 --> 00:49:19.640
Faster, bro
623
00:49:19.640 --> 00:49:27.480
That's so good the previous version like this new version it's so fast and they release it and everyone's like high-fiving and then
624
00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:30.280
About three months later
625
00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:35.240
After you fully rewritten it it's effectively baseline or worse like typically it actually goes worse
626
00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:40.360
Like this happened with a very major project that I saw it actually got significantly worse memory usage
627
00:49:40.680 --> 00:49:44.200
And so it's just like but in the beginning it was so good
628
00:49:44.200 --> 00:49:48.200
So when I see it like a run dialogue rewrite that came in below budget
629
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:53.000
I mean you don't realize what this does to me like I can't I don't even think it was possible
630
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:55.480
So I'm actually very impressed
631
00:49:56.200 --> 00:49:59.960
I mean like I said I don't know I'm just saying what people will say
632
00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:04.120
I don't know I I thought for oh god
633
00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:08.120
No, teach please I was gonna say initially when I saw the tweet
634
00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:14.680
I thought for sure I misread it because I thought they were saying the start menu thing the thing that people actually open
635
00:50:14.920 --> 00:50:21.720
You know, I'm saying the one that like sometimes you press the start thing and then it like it just doesn't show up for five seconds
636
00:50:21.720 --> 00:50:25.720
And then it shows like I was like good for yes
637
00:50:25.720 --> 00:50:29.640
Yeah, it shows me ads for edge and for being and like
638
00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:35.800
I was like wow good for them a feature that a regular every day person uses
639
00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:40.920
They rewrote from scratch and took from my experience median of five to ten seconds to load
640
00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:46.120
It feels like and they brought it down to 90 milliseconds. I'm like great good for them
641
00:50:46.120 --> 00:50:50.120
You see opposite of that right every single version of windows that gets slower
642
00:50:51.080 --> 00:50:57.000
The start menu is still bad and the run menu that my parents don't know exists
643
00:50:57.640 --> 00:51:01.720
My mom has never seen the run menu. She does not know what that even means like if I were to tell it
644
00:51:01.720 --> 00:51:04.200
Oh, just use the run menu. She's like what is a run menu?
645
00:51:04.200 --> 00:51:09.160
I'm kind of confused about the run menu to be completely honest because
646
00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:13.640
Again, this is kind of like for historical reasons
647
00:51:14.120 --> 00:51:20.520
Originally the start menu did not really have the concept of like type to execute so
648
00:51:21.160 --> 00:51:26.680
Like if you look back at like a Windows 95 or Windows 2000 XP or a start menu
649
00:51:27.160 --> 00:51:30.200
Then what happened if I if I'm remembering correctly
650
00:51:31.160 --> 00:51:36.920
Is typing would be imp would be interpreted as like trying to hotkey through that menu
651
00:51:37.160 --> 00:51:43.320
So like you popped up the start menu using like the super key or whatever or the windows key or whatever
652
00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:47.800
It would be called I guess the co-pilot key now Casey co-pilot would it know yeah right
653
00:51:48.280 --> 00:51:51.560
Um, it is yeah you push that the start button opens and you type a key
654
00:51:51.720 --> 00:51:54.840
I think it just hotkeys through that menu. It doesn't start
655
00:51:55.320 --> 00:52:00.360
Uh, it didn't originally I'd at least my recollection is it didn't originally start
656
00:52:01.160 --> 00:52:05.320
Accepting those as keystrokes to be interpreted as a command of some kind
657
00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:08.440
If you now do it like if I hit that button
658
00:52:09.080 --> 00:52:13.640
Uh, it it does so like if I hits the start menu button and I start typing
659
00:52:14.040 --> 00:52:19.000
It does sort of like a linuxy style thing where you start typing into a kind of ambiguous box
660
00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:25.160
That's just like I don't know. I'm gonna do something with this yeah D menu effectively effectively my question is
661
00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:33.080
Why is there even a run menu to begin with now isn't that thing like what why are there two different things
662
00:52:33.160 --> 00:52:35.560
And I'm guessing and I could be wrong
663
00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:41.320
I'm guessing the answer is because the run menu is actually gonna run the thing
664
00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:47.320
Whereas the the box is like we have to keep that as like an idiot box
665
00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:50.920
Like it has to be a thing where you just type if you type in c colon
666
00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:57.160
Backslash uh, you know windows backslash notepad.exe into that or something
667
00:52:57.480 --> 00:53:00.440
We have to show you ads for our new co-pilot improved
668
00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:05.400
Uh, actually had that you or what it right like it has to it has to do all these other
669
00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:07.960
Business oriented operations
670
00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:11.720
So that can't be the run dialogue. We have to have this other run dialogue
671
00:53:11.720 --> 00:53:15.000
Is that the explanation because I don't really know like I don't know why there are two
672
00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:22.520
Yeah, Casey unfortunately you're 100% right it will literally show you internet search results
673
00:53:23.160 --> 00:53:25.160
In the start menu
674
00:53:27.160 --> 00:53:33.320
Yeah, thank you for getting the search results. It's a thing uh, so I find Casey
675
00:53:33.880 --> 00:53:37.800
When can I say one more thing about that though, which is that Casey unfortunately you'll be really
676
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:41.400
Pleased or sad to hear I don't know depending on you know
677
00:53:41.640 --> 00:53:44.760
Are we praying on Microsoft's downfall? I'm not sure but
678
00:53:45.720 --> 00:53:53.640
Oftentimes it shows the internet search result higher than the local program in my experience on that where you start typing something
679
00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:57.720
I start typing slay this fire to and it doesn't pick the game
680
00:53:57.800 --> 00:54:03.640
It's going to pick a web search to bring me to slay this buyer to dot com or something like that instead and opens
681
00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:10.440
It does a bunch of stuff at yeah, yeah, trash hold it up so we can see flip flip your you know point yourself away from the camera
682
00:54:10.920 --> 00:54:14.040
One password. This is a work machine. Hold on. It might reveal
683
00:54:14.440 --> 00:54:19.880
Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it.
684
00:54:20.840 --> 00:54:23.640
I'll be enough. I do have my password on the screen right now
685
00:54:26.440 --> 00:54:28.920
Don't don't say no are you kidding me right now?
686
00:54:36.040 --> 00:54:38.360
You can't admit that you cannot admit that out loud
687
00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:52.840
All right
688
00:54:52.840 --> 00:55:00.120
Stacy can I make can I make you even more frustrated? I mean I again like I don't care windows do whatever you want
689
00:55:00.280 --> 00:55:03.000
I switched. I don't care. The frustration was the tweets
690
00:55:03.560 --> 00:55:05.560
It's very mature of you
691
00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:10.760
So one thing that's kind of interesting about
692
00:55:12.200 --> 00:55:16.600
What's called the start menu is that you can you can kind of treat it like a fuzzy finder a little bit
693
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:22.440
So I can type in like s notes and hopefully I get what I'm wanting it doesn't quite work that well
694
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:24.520
It pulls up results. I can't quite figure it out
695
00:55:24.760 --> 00:55:27.320
But the run one is definitely not fuzzy findable
696
00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:28.040
Right
697
00:55:28.040 --> 00:55:31.800
So the run one you have to type in like the correct thing you have to say the program you're gonna run
698
00:55:32.120 --> 00:55:37.800
Which I assume is the intent right like it's trying it's trying to be more of a command line like
699
00:55:38.280 --> 00:55:39.560
Experience
700
00:55:39.560 --> 00:55:45.320
Which is why I this is why I assume that there are two which is kind of weird but like you know
701
00:55:46.600 --> 00:55:52.440
Yeah, and so that's that's the that's the interesting one is that you get a more fuzzy find plus internet results one for one
702
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:58.600
And a no fuzzy find one for the other one and so but the update to the one that nobody know really generally most people don't use
703
00:55:58.600 --> 00:55:59.800
I assume yeah
704
00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:03.720
That's more for people who just like they they
705
00:56:04.280 --> 00:56:07.640
Back in the day they opened the start menu and selected run
706
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:12.680
Which is how you originally got to this or you learned the hot key of win or something
707
00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:14.600
And now that's just part of your workflow
708
00:56:14.600 --> 00:56:18.200
So we tried to keep it which I appreciate them doing like they could have just removed it
709
00:56:18.200 --> 00:56:23.800
Like you said very few people probably use it in relative to their gigantic user base
710
00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:28.920
But very few people in this case is still probably in the 100,000s right because windows is so huge
711
00:56:29.240 --> 00:56:32.280
Yeah, I think I most often see it in um
712
00:56:33.640 --> 00:56:37.880
Let's see kit bogey videos where the guys are trying to scam him and they make him run
713
00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:40.280
And
714
00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:47.880
The time I most often see the run menu is they say open up run menu type and then they say something insane to type in there
715
00:56:50.040 --> 00:56:55.720
By the way tj just so you know you could always disable search results if you wanted to oh I can
716
00:56:56.200 --> 00:56:58.280
I don't have any star menu leaders left now
717
00:56:59.160 --> 00:57:01.160
Okay
718
00:57:01.160 --> 00:57:06.360
I guess you wanted to if you know it's fantastic pieces of star menu you could disable ads
719
00:57:06.600 --> 00:57:08.360
It's like a it's an available option
720
00:57:09.080 --> 00:57:14.040
We talked about this recently. I literally tried to boot up an old windows computer that I had
721
00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:19.320
So I could have it as a minecraft machine for my wife so that when we play minecraft together
722
00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:23.320
She just has one computer that we turn on and then it opens to minecraft basically
723
00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:30.600
It got stuck in an update loop where I couldn't download minecraft because it was waiting for windows updates
724
00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:35.240
But windows updates couldn't run because it was trying to run windows store problems
725
00:57:35.560 --> 00:57:41.080
And so they fought each other and I couldn't get an update or minecraft installed on the machine
726
00:57:41.480 --> 00:57:46.840
So I deleted everything and installed linux and put minecraft on their faster than I could get the windows update
727
00:57:47.400 --> 00:57:56.280
Minecraft a a Microsoft product a Microsoft product. I had to run the Android emulated version of bedrock
728
00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:58.360
Minecraft on my linux machine
729
00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:04.040
Which I installed from scratch faster than I could figure out how to get the windows thing to work
730
00:58:04.120 --> 00:58:09.160
Because I had to do that because there was bedrock one. That's the one that we're running for my kid. So it's anyways. It's crazy
731
00:58:10.040 --> 00:58:14.120
I think Microsoft should just start shipping linux. I think it's over. I think they should just
732
00:58:14.840 --> 00:58:16.840
Put the windows in that too
733
00:58:17.080 --> 00:58:22.200
They should put a windows logo on linux and call it Microsoft linux
734
00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:25.400
Or something like that Microsoft winix
735
00:58:26.200 --> 00:58:33.400
And just windows 12. That's all I have to do that's just it's windows 12 windows 12 is just linux and they just and they just like like
736
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:37.480
Send all their source code to the wine developers because I as far as I'm concerned. It's over
737
00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:40.920
Like it's just it's over guys like it's over. All right
738
00:58:41.080 --> 00:58:46.360
Windows sub system for linux. It could be wind at what would be the opposite of sub system something that
739
00:58:46.760 --> 00:58:52.280
Consumers others windows super system. There we go little Linux. Yeah, it's still WSL
740
00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:54.360
But it's also colpilot
741
00:58:55.000 --> 00:58:57.000
It's called colpilot WSL
742
00:58:57.800 --> 00:59:02.920
Because people have been trying I mean people have been trying for decades to get things fixed at this point now
743
00:59:03.240 --> 00:59:08.040
And it's just it's too late like it's just like everyone was forced to go do other stuff now
744
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:11.000
That's why this is happening no one wanted to do this
745
00:59:11.720 --> 00:59:17.000
Like like valden want to make steam OS like I didn't want to change our machines here to linux
746
00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:23.320
I was fine with windows. They just they forced us to do it by just never caring about what any of us think
747
00:59:23.560 --> 00:59:27.000
And so now we're gone. I'm not coming back. It doesn't matter
748
00:59:28.440 --> 00:59:32.600
Oh, great question. Can they win you back? What would Microsoft have to do to win you back
749
00:59:33.400 --> 00:59:36.760
They can't because I was that's what happens so
750
00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:45.240
When you have a customer who's been a customer for you know, I don't know 30 years for something or 25 years
751
00:59:45.240 --> 00:59:47.240
I don't I'd have to go count how long it was
752
00:59:48.120 --> 00:59:50.360
um since since like the
753
00:59:51.160 --> 00:59:53.080
early 90s probably I would say
754
00:59:53.800 --> 00:59:57.240
When I was like in high school. I think I started using windows
755
00:59:57.960 --> 01:00:01.400
But um doesn't matter like windows 3 1 and stuff
756
01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:07.000
Uh, so the point is when you have a customer who's been with you that long
757
01:00:07.560 --> 01:00:14.680
And had all of their stuff like built on your system and was used to it and you know that was how they do their work
758
01:00:15.320 --> 01:00:17.000
The
759
01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:21.000
amount of work you're asking them to do to leave is pretty substantial
760
01:00:21.640 --> 01:00:25.320
In order to get to that point right it's not a like
761
01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:27.960
It's not a trial separation
762
01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:33.160
It's not a like we're just going to take some time to find each other and then we'll come back and see if this marriage still works
763
01:00:33.560 --> 01:00:34.680
it's not of that
764
01:00:34.680 --> 01:00:36.280
this is a
765
01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:40.600
Like I find you found you screwing the babysitter and we're getting divorced forever
766
01:00:40.760 --> 01:00:43.560
And I will never speak to you again and I'm taking the kids like that's
767
01:00:44.200 --> 01:00:48.840
That's how the windows thing went with me and I suspect that's how it went with a lot of people
768
01:00:49.640 --> 01:00:53.160
They were so bad for so long and so
769
01:00:53.800 --> 01:01:00.280
Egregiously anti-user that the people who left because of that are never coming back like I'm never coming back ever
770
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:02.280
There's nothing you could do to win me back
771
01:01:02.360 --> 01:01:07.880
I will die a user of some alternative operating system the question that they would need to ask is
772
01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:10.840
How do they stop that from happening to more people
773
01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:16.440
That's the only question left for them Casey I hear all those words you said the babysitter all that okay
774
01:01:16.840 --> 01:01:21.800
But what if just hear me out here, you know, you know how Holly would stop having good and new ideas
775
01:01:23.240 --> 01:01:25.240
What if windows
776
01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:27.800
Seven remastered
777
01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:32.280
Windows seven part two
778
01:01:33.480 --> 01:01:35.640
Windows seven performance edition
779
01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:42.600
Just throwing it out there whatever we went backwards. Okay, here's the thing is that's assuming that
780
01:01:43.160 --> 01:01:44.200
uh
781
01:01:44.200 --> 01:01:48.200
You know that's to continue my analogy that's just like saying I've changed
782
01:01:49.400 --> 01:01:55.080
I what do you mean like what how do I know how do I know you're not gonna go if I take does now
783
01:01:55.080 --> 01:01:57.880
I have to do work to switch back to your platform
784
01:01:58.520 --> 01:02:04.200
What what guarantees do I have that you won't just start sucking again immediately right and none
785
01:02:04.600 --> 01:02:09.640
You've demonstrated what kind of company you are you've demonstrated how you treat your users
786
01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:13.560
You've demonstrated institutionally what you think of us
787
01:02:14.120 --> 01:02:20.360
Which is you don't think of us you don't care when we repeatedly say you need to fix this windows update situation
788
01:02:20.360 --> 01:02:28.120
When we repeatedly say that look all of these things are broken the fight like the explorer if you accidentally drag an icon over a network share
789
01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:30.360
It pauses for several seconds
790
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:36.600
Unrecoverably how long has not waiting what is that like I don't know this don't fix anything. I don't care anymore
791
01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:39.400
I don't want to rely on you anymore, right?
792
01:02:39.960 --> 01:02:47.000
It's gotten to the point where some random people on the internet who put together a Linux distribution and put up an ISO
793
01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:52.440
Are more reliable to me than you that is where you have gotten right
794
01:02:53.640 --> 01:02:59.240
In terms of what I think of your ability to provide software to me that I can rely on it's over
795
01:03:00.360 --> 01:03:05.160
It's it's it's done. There's no way there's nothing you could do. I will you know
796
01:03:05.160 --> 01:03:09.960
I would go start working on Linux to fix it before I would go back to windows
797
01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:13.000
So not even XP remastered hurdle
798
01:03:14.120 --> 01:03:15.320
No
799
01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:21.240
No, it's the it's the it's a loss of confidence complete loss of confidence in the institution, right?
800
01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:23.400
Okay, but what about windows dose
801
01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:34.600
What about what we get we had Ms. Doss what about mr. Doss
802
01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:44.040
I did not even get the dose quite I didn't even get the joke the the dose I didn't even get it
803
01:03:45.560 --> 01:03:47.560
I mean that's just a judge is absurd
804
01:03:48.840 --> 01:03:50.840
Mr. Doss though, that's pretty funny
805
01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:54.360
Here's what I will say I don't remember if there was a windows two
806
01:03:54.680 --> 01:03:57.640
I remember there was a windows one and I remember there's a windows three
807
01:03:58.200 --> 01:04:00.760
I don't remember if there is a windows two was
808
01:04:02.280 --> 01:04:08.040
Started windows in 3.1 era. I never got to I never was on a windows one. I remember one was amazing
809
01:04:08.040 --> 01:04:11.240
You should go back and take a look. It's like it was a tiling window manager prime
810
01:04:12.440 --> 01:04:17.640
What believe it or not? Oh my god, so windows could actually handle windows well
811
01:04:18.120 --> 01:04:24.600
Tiling people are all like tiling window manager. Oh my god. It's the hotness like baby. I had that with windows one
812
01:04:24.760 --> 01:04:26.760
You open up a new window all your other window
813
01:04:27.320 --> 01:04:32.040
That's what happened all your other windows strength look it up kids. Oh my gosh
814
01:04:32.040 --> 01:04:36.920
That actually hurts me a little bit bill gates brought you the tiling window manager all these noobs
815
01:04:37.160 --> 01:04:41.800
All these noobs thinking linux did that didn't do that. I knew it was maybe windows one theory
816
01:04:42.440 --> 01:04:47.080
I knew what tiling window managers were conspiracy by the gates foundation look it up
817
01:04:48.680 --> 01:04:53.800
DHH do you think you're doing something but you're just windows one baby you're just windows one
818
01:04:54.600 --> 01:04:57.880
Nothing new under the sun windows one open up calculator
819
01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:00.440
Like it only had like three things
820
01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:02.200
Calculator
821
01:05:02.200 --> 01:05:06.520
Open up calculator again. Open up clock. I'm like clock to calculate. I was it was
822
01:05:06.520 --> 01:05:11.080
Word perfect. No pad. That's all you got now. It was word perfect back in the day
823
01:05:11.640 --> 01:05:15.160
Yeah, there was probably a couple apps that were actually important that people were using
824
01:05:15.160 --> 01:05:18.760
I don't know what they were but I just played around with it. I never used it for anything real
825
01:05:19.240 --> 01:05:21.800
True I was a little kid I was a little baby
826
01:05:22.920 --> 01:05:27.880
The heck I know I feel like trash just hasn't had a lot to say so trash what why don't you why don't you give us the last word
827
01:05:29.000 --> 01:05:32.840
Oh, I was gonna say I used to play cuba and family feud on my windows machine via floppy disk
828
01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:35.960
What is family feud the video game
829
01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:38.760
If you
830
01:05:38.760 --> 01:05:41.480
I used to just play family feud that family feud for like
831
01:05:42.680 --> 01:05:46.440
10 hours a day. I don't know my windows machine. It was like the best time of my life
832
01:05:46.520 --> 01:05:53.400
How did you never bring that up after we hosted two family feuds like we would have featured you more highly in the show if we knew you're such a super fan
833
01:05:54.760 --> 01:05:56.680
Yeah, I mean, I just had nothing else to do with my time
834
01:05:57.640 --> 01:06:00.440
And to you in this I don't remember the family feud game
835
01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:05.320
I don't think I've ever seen it. Is it like they give you the category the thing like name something
836
01:06:05.800 --> 01:06:07.800
You pack for a vacation
837
01:06:08.600 --> 01:06:12.440
In you type it in you type it in and you have to get it exactly right or
838
01:06:13.400 --> 01:06:18.600
To get so see the scoreboard or like the x's and that was it. I would just play that non-stop
839
01:06:18.600 --> 01:06:22.920
Do you have a virtual family on the figures at just the same thing? I don't think it actually had people
840
01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:26.840
It was just just like the things flipping they didn't even flip. I mean, it's just showing right right
841
01:06:26.840 --> 01:06:33.080
I mean it's the old days that the stuff was harder. Right. I think you burnt keeper was my little one and dig dug dig dug was another big one
842
01:06:33.080 --> 01:06:37.800
I played too dude my son just discovered dig dug we were out of there being beat with some friends
843
01:06:37.800 --> 01:06:41.400
And they had a little arcade thing down there. So then we started we started
844
01:06:42.200 --> 01:06:47.560
You know, he's five so we're but we started vibe coding a dig dug alternative for him to be able to play
845
01:06:48.200 --> 01:06:51.640
And like because he really liked that in one of them you could make
846
01:06:52.760 --> 01:07:00.680
Like jackhammer the ground there was like a 2.5 D version as well dig dug under covers of the I don't know crazy
847
01:07:01.240 --> 01:07:06.600
Okay, I don't know they had other dig dug versions that I was unaware of but I remember the original and so we
848
01:07:06.680 --> 01:07:11.560
We just started building one with him. It was pretty sick. I don't know dig dug
849
01:07:12.200 --> 01:07:18.760
What dig dug? No, I mean, I know rampage. I know all the sickly digging around the street like 10 years later
850
01:07:19.320 --> 01:07:23.480
Like a decade after dig dug dig dug is way older. Okay, so maybe maybe okay, hold on
851
01:07:23.480 --> 01:07:25.480
Maybe I do know dig dug by accident
852
01:07:25.640 --> 01:07:29.800
I do have a nice little Atari machine like gigantic arcade machine
853
01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:31.800
That's an Atari machine with a few different games on it
854
01:07:32.360 --> 01:07:37.160
And one of them is a thing where you dig through the ground and these enemies try to get you and you like
855
01:07:37.960 --> 01:07:39.960
What appears to be a pump atom?
856
01:07:39.960 --> 01:07:42.200
Yes, that's a couple more times and they pop
857
01:07:43.000 --> 01:07:45.000
Oh, that's dig dug. Okay
858
01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:53.240
Okay, I thought they were they burst. Yes, they burst. Yes. Okay, very it's a very graphic game. You explode people
859
01:07:54.120 --> 01:07:55.880
Yeah, it's kind of wild
860
01:07:55.880 --> 01:08:00.760
Yeah, I think doom was like the first game I played. I was like gore and it was like what happened here
861
01:08:01.320 --> 01:08:03.320
That was insane. That's a good game
862
01:08:04.280 --> 01:08:08.680
All right, well great final note trash. I appreciate that you're welcome
863
01:08:09.400 --> 01:08:13.240
You know, I actually feel bad for making me bring the show together like I don't know man
864
01:08:13.240 --> 01:08:16.280
You got I we got to keep him on the show. I have like a very interesting
865
01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:19.800
We're just lack message. I was like reading it like near the animals like I
866
01:08:20.920 --> 01:08:26.840
I guess go Kasey what that means though too is we have to make sure trash never gets rich because apparently as soon as he gets rich
867
01:08:26.840 --> 01:08:28.840
He's leaving us behind
868
01:08:29.240 --> 01:08:34.200
Be like do not promote this man. He's questionable. See I get written in the sky full-time
869
01:08:38.440 --> 01:08:45.000
All right, oh my gosh, so by the way if anyone's if if we ever do a stand-up without the trash, you know why
870
01:08:46.040 --> 01:08:48.040
Yeah
871
01:08:48.040 --> 01:08:50.040
What's the what's the meme where it's like
872
01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:56.920
It if I become rich like there will be signs how what's the phrase? I won't it won't be obvious, but there will be signs
873
01:08:56.920 --> 01:09:02.840
You guys know that yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it's trash not it's our podcast with three people
874
01:09:05.640 --> 01:09:11.480
The one the one episode before that happens the room he's in right now will just be it'll just be all
875
01:09:11.480 --> 01:09:18.120
Pokemon's are all like he's kind of like being crushed slowly by the cheer that is the dream yeah
876
01:09:18.440 --> 01:09:20.440
That is the dream hopefully we get there
877
01:09:21.240 --> 01:09:25.240
Yeah, all right. Well, thank you very much for joining us for the stand-up
878
01:09:25.480 --> 01:09:31.000
We didn't there was an alternative topic. We might have talked about today, which was GitHub's uh big performance push as well
879
01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:33.320
Talk about that. I was like, I guess we're not getting to that
880
01:09:33.560 --> 01:09:37.720
Yeah, this went on a little bit too long. So that's something we'll probably have to do another time maybe
881
01:09:38.120 --> 01:09:44.280
Anyways, thank you for joining us. The name is Kasey Miritori trash teach agenda
882
01:09:50.440 --> 01:09:53.160
Oh
