Massimo Rigotti: Never the drink first. Always one thought you didn't catch. Today you'll get the five question test. A clinical psychologist has used his entire career to catch it before it wins. Plus, one rule quietly running your life. Please welcome Dr. Bernie Glos. Bernie, you've used a five-question test for decades to catch what you call a hot thought. The belief that fires right before a craving or a bad decision turns into a real one. So right now, in plain terms, what are the five questions? And how does someone actually run them in the middle of an urge?
Bernie Glos: Okay. The model is called AFrog because the letters stand and it became the the actual process was created by a psychologist, Maxie Maltzby in the early nineteen nineties, called rational behavior therapy. and later in the nineties the criminal justice system picked it up and wanted to use it for other things besides mental health issues. For example, Addiction issues, criminal behavior, things like that. And kind of changed the name to rational behavior training to give it a much broader perspective. And what we found when we used it in the facility and the materials I created, it was very effective in giving someone a rule of thumb to question what's going through their head and determining: is it rational? Is it going to make sense? And so the five questions and the beginning letters of each come up with the word a frog. So you always have this frog image in your mind that you can, yeah, now I know I have to think it out. And and the first one is alive. Does my self-talk keep me alive? Am I going to protect myself and my health? Is my physical well being gonna be better if I have this kind of thought? And again, thoughts lead to behaviors which lead to feelings. So again, if we want to manage the behaviors and feelings, we've got to get and manage the thoughts. So the first one is does it keep me alive? Secondly, does it help me feel better? In other words, do I get feelings after making a thought which and resulting behavior that I feel better? That I feel healthy, that basically I'm doing things that aren't causing my body to do strange things. For example, if I decide to get violent, all kinds of chemicals start floating through my body. The third thing is is my self talk real? And the key piece of this is to try to be more rational and understand instead of reacting, acting. That is, instead of being pushed by some impulse from the inside or outside. To step back and say, is this rational? That is, does it make sense? Is it logical? do I actually just focus on behaviors? Do I make presumptions? In other words, is it real? And that way it gives me some control of how to interpret situations, how to interpret people, how to interpret interactions. The next one is others. Does my self talk help me get along with others? That is, when I'm in a situation and I begin to have some thoughts about it, are these thoughts going to be useful to avoid unnecessary conflict, to avoid unnecessary stress? How can I engage with others? Because we as humans are social beings. And being with others and having meaningful relationships are very important. And lastly, does my self-talk help me reach my goals? And again, this focuses on the whole thing of moving from autopilot, where my life is just reacting and reacting to acting, where I am taking control of my life, setting some goals. So do I have goals that are positive? Will my self talk help me reach my immediate goals? Would it help me reach my long term goals? Would it help me get the things that are important to me? Again, realizing that I'm the captain of the ship. It's not rudderless heading anywhere. And that these five things are to help me get control. So instead of being a reactive individual, I sometimes use the example. Nowadays you don't have pinball machines anymore that are mechanical. But if you go back and look at an old pinball machine, you shoot the ball and it bounces all over the place. And depending how you hit the paddles and all of that, it may go wherever. But basically, that pinball doesn't make any choices. It just reacts and bounces. And so what you want to do is move away from that kind of life where you're reacting, you're bouncing off of, but you're actually taking control. You are deciding what should I think, what should I do? and this is important, even in basic therapy settings, I always tell my clients who I saw, all the th everything in life can be into divided into two piles. One huge pile is things I don't have any control over, one smaller pile is things I have control over. And the more I mess around in that big pile, the unhappier I'm going to be. Because I'm going to be having to do things that don't make any sense. And again, it back gets us back to I need to stop and think. Or as we did in the facility I ran, we called it stop, look, and listen. What's going on in your head? What's going on around you? Then you decide to act and resulting feelings. But again, it's taking control in a positive way and trying to again. Avoid being just bounced around or reacting or not knowing how to handle things, but being able to back off.
Massimo Rigotti: makes a lot of sense. But I'm curious now, why do you call it a hot thought instead of a bad thought? Because I mean, what makes a thought actually hot?
Bernie Glos: Well there's there are some thoughts that very instantly will drive inappropriate behaviors. And some of these hot thoughts are, for example, if I decide I'm a victim, I'm gonna immediately respond. I need to take control over everything and I gotta you know, deal with everything. Or I am powerless, or I've had enough. I can't take any more. I'm gonna go out and have a couple, you know. so again, the idea is to stay away from thoughts which tend to drive immediate reactive and sometimes violent behaviors, as opposed to less hot thoughts that, you know, they're not appropriate, they're not gonna be helpful. But they're not going to cause some real immediate problem, like going back to heavy drinking, hurting somebody, or doing anything like that. And so that's why it's important to use these criteria. What's going on in my head? What am I thinking? You know, instead of again, just being that pinball bouncing around as to what's going on, I take control. Where am I going? What is the response I'm going to make? You know, slow down. I actually learned this in first grade because where I went to school, there was just west of us part of a rail yard with 24 railroad tracks. and most of my classmates, they all walked the school. Well, they had to cross twenty-four tracks. And there were times when they either decided to take a chance or not, and there were some real close calls. So they actually created some music and song called Stop Look and Listen. And you know, then it it was very practical. You know, look around. What's going on around you? Are there trains coming? You know, what do I do? And again, this is the same model we use you know, with the kids in my facility is stop, look, and listen. What's going on in your head? What's going on around you? Stop. Don't react. You know, take the time to Think it through. Am I doing the right thing? You know, and yeah, sometimes you're not always going to do the right thing, but the fact is you've got tools to increase
Massimo Rigotti: Right.
Bernie Glos: that probability significantly.
Massimo Rigotti: And what is the most practical way to to catch yourself other than just trying to slow yourself down before you're reaching for that drink or drug or doing the doing what the hot thought is going to lead you towards?
Bernie Glos: I think it's being able just to step back sometime. You know, it's a concept that that we used often in working with our violent kids called mindfulness. Being aware, you know, and being aware that there's a a psychiatrist who does some online programming on PBS, Dr. Daniel Lehman, and he talked about basically don't believe everything your brain tells you. So it means, you know, being able to say, Does it make sense, you know? And to be able to just slow down the response a little bit so it's not just automatic, you know, it's not like catching a ball in a field. It's where I basically say, What's going on? you know, and just briefly kind of step back a little bit and become less reactive. Yeah, there are times, you know, in danger, you know, somebody pulls in front of us on a on a crowded highway, we hit the brakes, and that's good. But that approach doesn't work in every situation. And it means just being able to say, wait a minute, what's going on here? Just, you know, being less quick and less reactive and a bit more thoughtful, a bit more trying to understand what's really going on here, you know, and trying to become aware of that and trying to think about it rather than just rushing with some response very quickly.
Massimo Rigotti: Yeah, I like that a lot. Now you write about the addiction making family and the unspoken rules like being perfect, playing it safe, and never showing your true feelings. Could you walk us through where those rules come from and why they set someone up for, exactly this kind of hot thought later in life?
Bernie Glos: Well, sometimes there are things that where do we learn, to deal with things, what are the models we have? And sometimes it's our parents, you know. And my experience as a psychologist for these, you know, fifty-five years is that basically kids have three choices. They just follow along in lockstep and do the same thing. They stop and think, Yeah, okay, I understand what they're doing, but I may do something different. Or they react and do the exact complete opposite, you know. So there are some options there. What are some of the things? there are things that basically help us become irrational. And if we follow along, for example, be perfect. everybody has to be happy about what happens. So you need to make sure everybody's happy. The whole goal is to make people happy. It's not to be honest. It's not to be truthful, it's to make everybody happy. Secondly, playing safe. Never take a risk. Never fail. And you know, life has risks. if we're going to succeed, we sometimes have to take some reasonable risks. And sometimes those risks fail, but you know, that's part of life. It's a learning experience. Another thing that sometimes addiction making families say is don't be selfish. Please others, help others, not yourself. And take care of everybody else except your own. Now, I think it's important we are helpful to others. And doing it in an appropriate way makes us better. But the thing is, we also have to look after ourselves. And we have to make sure that needs are being met, relationships are being maintained, and that we simply don't just jump into something and let it absorb us. Because pretty soon we don't have an identity of our own. something other is stick to the script. Don't see things as they really are because you cannot handle it. Keep the illusion of what our family is. Again, it's this movement away from reality. And one of the things we know, especially from looking at those five ways of looking at thoughts, when we start developing irrational thinking. It starts creating some issues for us where we become automatons, you know, we become androids. We just move in reaction, and don't express your true feelings. Sometimes, you know, in families, the mode is here never say what's really going on inside of you, never say how you feel. And then what ends up happening is people keep stuffing their feelings. And then in situations where it's important to do that, not only for you, but the situation, they don't know how. How do I do that? How do I appropriately say what's going on? one of the things we also focused on, and I focus on this, you know, even in treatment, is looking at the basic four communication skills. And this is something our schools need to focus on. We forget that there are basic ways of communicating. and one of them is expressing appropriately what you feel. Because to things we always communicate facts or feelings. And the thing with the fact is it's always important that we say let me see, I think this is what you said rather than uh-huh. And with the feelings, it's appropriately expressing them and then being able to respond to them. And that's important, For example, instead of determining what somebody's feeling is, you say, you seem upset about something, are you? where you're not pushing them into some corner, but you're trying to establish communication. And one of the important things that I think is part of not only addiction, but of growing up to be a mature human being, is that we learn to communicate. We learn to listen. We learn to communicate and try to understand rather than presuming. that we try to understand. So we ask the question, gee, are you upset? Do you seem upset? Is that true? What's going on? and then you appropriately express how you feel. Instead of screaming and yelling, you say, you know, I'm very disappointed in this whole thing. I had some other expectations. And I communicate it in a way that it's not destructive. Because what ends up happening is if we grow up with a belief or self-talk that says, Don't express your feelings. At some point the feelings will take over because there are situations where the feelings are going to rise up. And what's going to happen then is we're going to blow up literally. Because instead of dealing with them at the moment in an appropriate way, they sit there percolating and pretty soon boom.
Massimo Rigotti: so this brings up a very interesting question for the modern era. Everything you just talked about is image management. You're basically you're teaching your child how to manage their image and how they look to the world rather than how they truly feel. And now you couple that with so many of the youth today that are embedded in social media and the pressure of keeping up an image that may not even be truthful to their own. Do you think that that adds to addiction making for the
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: youth today.
Bernie Glos: Yes. I think when the farther away we get from being ourselves, the more difficult it is to handle things. And addiction becomes the quick fix. It becomes the calming moment, the soothing moment. When somehow I can pull away from this unreality. But the fact is that if we truly try to come to an understanding of who we are. Act as we are appropriately, and then we help people that you know we accept people for who they are, we're not all the same, and we understand that and don't get upset by that, you know. But again, the process is communicating, communicating true facts, communicating feelings, and not making judgments of what people are feeling without really asking them first.
Massimo Rigotti: So here's what I find fascinating. you spent your career on two very different populations, kids and juvenile detention, and now more recently you're working with high achieving adults and workplace environments. Do the same rules apply in both areas or have you learned anything
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: from the other?
Bernie Glos: I think the rules are basically the same. I think the the facts are basically the same. Namely, we have core beliefs that drive behavior and ultimately feelings. And it's important number one to discover through looking at our self talk, what are these core beliefs? Do they make sense? Are they realistic? You know, go back to A Frog. You know, if this this expectation I have, and that's the other thing is what is my expectation? Are my expectations of others? in in one of the manuals we wrote, my social worker there added a concept that she created, and her name was Faye. We call it Faye's formula, and that is expectations minus reality equals pain. In other words, How are we seeing things as they are really? Or are we somehow making some interpretation that doesn't fit and in the end causes us to interact inappropriately with an individual, a setting, or anything? So that's why I think it's consistent. You know, whether you're dealing with a teenager, whether you're dealing with an adult, basically you need to look at What are those thought processes going on? Are you aware of what's going on in your head? and in some ways, even with adults, there's a book that came out some years ago that talked about the brain, and it gave an example that our brain works something like Abraham Lincoln's cabinet. Dolores Kearns Goodwin, who's a great American historian, wrote a book called A Team of Rivals. And the brilliance of Abraham Lincoln was that he put people around him who did not share his views, who had different ideas. And the thing there was when you then put the thing together, you're likely to get a better product because you can somehow, how do we make sense out of all these possibilities? Well, what our brain does is say, you know, as the book mentioned, our brain sends us a lot of signals. There's a lot of competing things going on in our heads. Which one are we gonna listen to? And are we just gonna react to it or are we gonna stop and say, Yeah, what's going on in my head here? am I seeing this appropriately? You know, being aware of what's going on in our heads, what's going on in us, rather than either trying to create some image and then try to act to it, which won't work very well, or simply just reacting, Being like that pinball, bouncing off of everything and what happens I react to rather than how do I take control? How do I manage my role in this situation?
Massimo Rigotti: In the end, mindfulness always will win out in in making
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: sure that you will make the best decision, I think. Yeah.
Bernie Glos: Yes. And it's, you know, it goes back to this awareness. sometimes people are not aware of why they do things. And then, one of the things, we did in terms of helping people do that, again, based on the rational behavior the training model is doing a thinking report, basically what was going on? What does this tell about you? And is this really what you want to be thinking and holding on? as values and everything else. Do you really want to do that? And in the long run, you know, let's go through the A frog again. Is it going to help you? is it going to make you feel better, get along better? And most importantly, is it going to help you achieve goals that are important? And again, it's the question of what is going on, being aware, and empowering someone to do that. I think one of the key concepts in change Is empowering the individual. we did that working with the young people. We empowered each kid to come up to be able to do something positive. And a real good example of that is, when we ran our center, we had people from all over the country, all I've been in Europe and other places come. The kids always presented about our program. And then I would let people free to talk to staff and kids, and they'd sit with a kid, a kid would explain everything. The kids were empowered. And we did some experimental stuff. For example, I designed a program to work with kids who were very violent, somebody from the state said, could you come and do a presentation at our next conference? And I said, yeah, but two kids from my center will do the presentation. The person kind of looked at me and said, Huh? You getting two kids who are locked up are going to do a presentation at a statewide conference. I said, Yes. Okay. they I found two kids who wanted to do it, and one of them was fairly violent, who never had any violence after he left us, and figured out what we're gonna do and picked them up, drove to Rockford in Illinois. There was a hundred people in the room, you could hear a pin drop. And these two sixteen year old kids from detention did an awesome job. So much so they got almost like a five minute standing ovation at the end. so the question is, every human being has endless potential and possibility, but we have to empower them in the right direction. And that's very important. It's very important. You know, so we have to work. How do we empower them? We have to give them skills to take control and set up where am I going? How am I going to get there? And what are some of the tools I can use.
Massimo Rigotti: Now you've been practicing psychology since nineteen seventy one. Could
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: you walk us through the arc from running clinical care at the Gateway Foundation, helping build DuPage County's drug court? All all of the stuff.
Bernie Glos: Well, I s I I I started out I started out on the faculty of what is now Benedictine University in Lisle Illinois. I did counseling,
Massimo Rigotti: Okay.
Bernie Glos: I did head of the psych department setups, a bull bunch of stuff. then I was supposed to go hit up a research center in Washington and my father got a stroke. I was the only one in the family, so that changed. Did some work for the Diocese of Joliet. Then I decided to do something challenging and moved into the inner city of Chicago. where I worked at a local community mental health center. And in my spree time I just wandered the streets late at night trying to prevent kids from doing violent things. And again, it was a question of connecting and empowering. In fact, a young man in the community when I may came into the community, there were tremendous drive-by shootings in the crowds. And a young man came to me, he says, We need to fix this. I said, Well let's do it. So we met with all the local gang groupings and we got them to sign on a truce and that was the end of drive by shootings in the crowds. Again, is empowering them. How do we empower them to do something positive? and I would mediate some things with people before it got out of hand, you know, and the guns came out. And that was a powerful thing. I left there and joined the faculty of the medical school at UIC in Chicago and the psychiatry department and focused a lot on neuropsychology. And, you know, focused a lot on how the brain works and how this all fits together, I left there and joined Managed Behavioral Healthcare at that time and it was called MedCo and then they finally got absorbed by I think Greenspring. But eventually ultimately I was clinical director for our operation in Illinois, a million and a half people and six thousand providers. And we worked at providing good services and making sure that we dealt with people appropriately, that operation moved to Texas. I didn't want to move also when I lived and worked in the inner city, I took in three kids off the streets who had no place to live and raised them. The oldest one now was fifty seven, the others are in their fifties. They're all doing wonderful with great families. I left there because managed care came along and offered me a you know, came along, we did that. And then they were gonna move to Texas and I thought, I don't wanna move to Texas. And so I joined Gateway Foundation, became actually their first clinical director. And one of my achievements was getting them totally accredited by the joint commission. Instead of separate commissions and then you had separate standards and you go nuts. I got tired of doing that on the road a lot and finally in ninety nine I went to DuPage. They wanted someone to design programs, so helped I was on the team that designed the first drug court for DuPage. And then I designed they wanted to expand the detention center. We designed the program that be received national international recognition. Again it focused on changing thinking. Empowering kids to do the right things. For example, we wrote manuals. Kids were in groups three times a day, seven days a week. I got the kids involved in helping me write the manuals. And this wasn't this wasn't something they they took casually. I give you an example of what happens when you empower people to do good things. I picked a dozen kids, I said, listen, in the next two weeks, could you go over this anger management manual and you know, see if it works, see if you can make it better. The next morning when they came into the dining room and every morning I met every kid, asked them how they were doing. Again, this whole thing of recognition, very important connection. They all came in with their books. And I checked with my midnight staff. They had stayed up all night to go through this 42 page manual. And I said, Good, we'll meet this afternoon, And they went through it. Like one kid said, You needed a cartoon here to help. communicate something, I drew it. Another kid said, I didn't like these stories. I wrote one, which was far better than what I had. Another kid said, you know, maybe this phrasing here would help. Kids participated, and they insisted that their names be in the book. And I said, Well, you know, do you want people to know you were locked up here? And the response was the same. Yes, I want people to know I was here. And again, it's this process of empowering people to take control and do meaningful things that make them feel good about themselves.
Massimo Rigotti: What do you think it is about the tools that you've built that have helped them stick around so long? so much comes and goes in this field and everything's got a trend. what is the thing that holds your stuff so stead fast? Because it's been around for decades now, the the things you're talking about.
Bernie Glos: Yes. I think the things that are very clear. Number one, we need to empower people to take controls of their lives. Number two, we have to help them do it. How do you do it? It's one thing to say, you know, you need to take control, be aware. How do you do it? Again, look at your thinking. Be aware. Is this what you want? Is this really where you want to go? and constantly build a sense of community and growth. we had a facility that had no violence. In fact, I had a there's a group that came in that measures the climate in facilities. They said, We've been doing this for 40 years. So they talked to staff, talked to kids, gave them surveys to fill out. When they were leaving, the guy said to me, This is the safest facility we've ever been in. I can't believe this. There's no violent thinking. And I says, Yeah, there is no violent thinking. Because we've enabled them to do something else. So again, it means empowering them. Connecting and then reinforcing it, constantly. I said we're like ATM machines. Every behavior we see gets us something, a response. And that's the other part of this, that the connection part is to recognize, to constantly empower. I've worked with a lot of violent kids in my career. People would say, you're crazy. You don't work on the streets. You're crazy. You could die. I said, no. No, the people are kids, even the most violent, are very protective for two reasons. Number one, if someone treats them with dignity and respect. And number two, if they believe you really care. That
Massimo Rigotti: Mm. Yeah.
Bernie Glos: prevents violence from anyone. And and so I think those are the important things to give people control of where they're going. To empower them on how to do it and let them know yes, you can can take control of your life. You can make changes, you can be the one, and then to reinforce that. Because I'm basically a behaviorist. You know, B. F. Skinner's my hero. And the thing is, we never take anything for granted, never take a behavior for granted. When anyone does anything, always be aware, always recognize. And this is very powerful. Very powerful. it's just that people know that somehow there's somebody there that cares. in a way that helps them make change, and that becomes very powerful. Again, how do you do it? Look at your thinking. Look at the thinking. Is that what you really want to think? Does that make sense? Is it rational? Is it better? The tools to do it and then reinforce their use.
Massimo Rigotti: So Bernie, the SOBER method begins with stoic, which
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: radically owning what is actually in your control. And then the exact moment where your five question tests want someone to stop and ask whether it's that thought's even real. And from there, the method moves into observe, which is naming what is actually happening without judgment and spin. And that's precisely where your hot thought work lives is
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: catching that thought before the decision. And
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: for For a high achiever, the stakes are not abstract. You know, one hot thought in the wrong moment will cost them their license, a promotion, a marriage, you know, it's it's intense. Everything could could be lost. So for the
Bernie Glos: Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: listener who maybe has spent their whole life being one who claims they've never lost control, what happens the first time they catch a hot thought instead of just riding it out?
Bernie Glos: Well, I mean you have to prepare people for being aware of what's going on around them so that things don't get out of control. Again, so that you're in control rather than your brain alone, where you're able to say, wait a minute, slow down here, wait a minute, and to understand, your view of other people. People do and say stupid things. we're not all perfect human beings. And the thing is we don't have to react to everything like it's the end of the world to have a sense of balance and reality and be able to say, okay, let's move on from there, and to be able to understand that. we live in an imperfect world. So we need to understand that and that way so that we don't overreact to things, to be aware of and again match our expectations. We need realistic expectations. because expectations are similar to self-talk and core beliefs. Fay Jackson very eloquently said, expectations minus reality is a lot of pain, So have reasonable expectations. because when you do that, then people won't feel like somehow they're being put on the spot. Because we can, kind of unconsciously communicate our expectations to others, and if they pick up on it, They're gonna feel awkward and not know why. And one of the things we don't wanna do is create awkward feelings in people because that way it makes it much more difficult, to be able to stop and think. that that kind of approach.
Massimo Rigotti: Well, everyone listening, before we go, here is one sober move this week. An observe step inspired by Bernie. The next time you feel a craving, an urge, or the pull to snap at someone, stop and write down the exact sentence running through your head in that moment. That's your hot thought. Then run through two of Bernie's A-Frog questions. First, does this thinking actually keep me healthy? Or is it setting me up for a mess? And second, is this based on what's real, or is it just my interpretation of the situation? If it fails either question, you've caught it before it caught you. So write down what you noticed, and that's the difference between reacting on autopilot and actually choosing. Bernie we have a tradition on this podcast where each guest answers a question left by my last guest. Today's question comes from Lolita Guarin, who left you this question. In what age would you like to live in and why?
Bernie Glos: I'm quite happy with the current time period. I think that to to say, let's go back to a different time is unrealistic. And I think that if if you're content enough in being able to manage yourself any time period with its the the different challenges is is is a welcome thing. So I'm quite happy with whatever time period I was in, and even the one now, you know, and I think that that's a healthy way to look at it and saying, Let's not go back on time and dream. Let's be real, you know. Exact and again, what is it in this time frame that I need to be aware of and how do I make it happen?
Massimo Rigotti: I think that's the healthiest possible answer that you could give, and it's certainly what I think. Why go w live in the past? You should always live in
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: the present and and into the future. So, Bernie, do you have a question you'd like to leave my next guest?
Bernie Glos: How do you become aware of the risks in your life?
Massimo Rigotti: that's a good one. I look forward to that answer. Well, to everyone listening, I want you to keep observing and journaling your own behaviors daily. My new book, Digital Sober Method, is available now anywhere books are sold. If putting down your phone is the fight you're in, this one is your solution. I'm Massimo Rigotti and this is the SOBER Method Podcast. Please follow, like, subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with anyone who needs to hear it. Remember, your future is sober.
Bernie Glos: Okay. The model is called AFrog because the letters stand and it became the the actual process was created by a psychologist, Maxie Maltzby in the early nineteen nineties, called rational behavior therapy. and later in the nineties the criminal justice system picked it up and wanted to use it for other things besides mental health issues. For example, Addiction issues, criminal behavior, things like that. And kind of changed the name to rational behavior training to give it a much broader perspective. And what we found when we used it in the facility and the materials I created, it was very effective in giving someone a rule of thumb to question what's going through their head and determining: is it rational? Is it going to make sense? And so the five questions and the beginning letters of each come up with the word a frog. So you always have this frog image in your mind that you can, yeah, now I know I have to think it out. And and the first one is alive. Does my self-talk keep me alive? Am I going to protect myself and my health? Is my physical well being gonna be better if I have this kind of thought? And again, thoughts lead to behaviors which lead to feelings. So again, if we want to manage the behaviors and feelings, we've got to get and manage the thoughts. So the first one is does it keep me alive? Secondly, does it help me feel better? In other words, do I get feelings after making a thought which and resulting behavior that I feel better? That I feel healthy, that basically I'm doing things that aren't causing my body to do strange things. For example, if I decide to get violent, all kinds of chemicals start floating through my body. The third thing is is my self talk real? And the key piece of this is to try to be more rational and understand instead of reacting, acting. That is, instead of being pushed by some impulse from the inside or outside. To step back and say, is this rational? That is, does it make sense? Is it logical? do I actually just focus on behaviors? Do I make presumptions? In other words, is it real? And that way it gives me some control of how to interpret situations, how to interpret people, how to interpret interactions. The next one is others. Does my self talk help me get along with others? That is, when I'm in a situation and I begin to have some thoughts about it, are these thoughts going to be useful to avoid unnecessary conflict, to avoid unnecessary stress? How can I engage with others? Because we as humans are social beings. And being with others and having meaningful relationships are very important. And lastly, does my self-talk help me reach my goals? And again, this focuses on the whole thing of moving from autopilot, where my life is just reacting and reacting to acting, where I am taking control of my life, setting some goals. So do I have goals that are positive? Will my self talk help me reach my immediate goals? Would it help me reach my long term goals? Would it help me get the things that are important to me? Again, realizing that I'm the captain of the ship. It's not rudderless heading anywhere. And that these five things are to help me get control. So instead of being a reactive individual, I sometimes use the example. Nowadays you don't have pinball machines anymore that are mechanical. But if you go back and look at an old pinball machine, you shoot the ball and it bounces all over the place. And depending how you hit the paddles and all of that, it may go wherever. But basically, that pinball doesn't make any choices. It just reacts and bounces. And so what you want to do is move away from that kind of life where you're reacting, you're bouncing off of, but you're actually taking control. You are deciding what should I think, what should I do? and this is important, even in basic therapy settings, I always tell my clients who I saw, all the th everything in life can be into divided into two piles. One huge pile is things I don't have any control over, one smaller pile is things I have control over. And the more I mess around in that big pile, the unhappier I'm going to be. Because I'm going to be having to do things that don't make any sense. And again, it back gets us back to I need to stop and think. Or as we did in the facility I ran, we called it stop, look, and listen. What's going on in your head? What's going on around you? Then you decide to act and resulting feelings. But again, it's taking control in a positive way and trying to again. Avoid being just bounced around or reacting or not knowing how to handle things, but being able to back off.
Massimo Rigotti: makes a lot of sense. But I'm curious now, why do you call it a hot thought instead of a bad thought? Because I mean, what makes a thought actually hot?
Bernie Glos: Well there's there are some thoughts that very instantly will drive inappropriate behaviors. And some of these hot thoughts are, for example, if I decide I'm a victim, I'm gonna immediately respond. I need to take control over everything and I gotta you know, deal with everything. Or I am powerless, or I've had enough. I can't take any more. I'm gonna go out and have a couple, you know. so again, the idea is to stay away from thoughts which tend to drive immediate reactive and sometimes violent behaviors, as opposed to less hot thoughts that, you know, they're not appropriate, they're not gonna be helpful. But they're not going to cause some real immediate problem, like going back to heavy drinking, hurting somebody, or doing anything like that. And so that's why it's important to use these criteria. What's going on in my head? What am I thinking? You know, instead of again, just being that pinball bouncing around as to what's going on, I take control. Where am I going? What is the response I'm going to make? You know, slow down. I actually learned this in first grade because where I went to school, there was just west of us part of a rail yard with 24 railroad tracks. and most of my classmates, they all walked the school. Well, they had to cross twenty-four tracks. And there were times when they either decided to take a chance or not, and there were some real close calls. So they actually created some music and song called Stop Look and Listen. And you know, then it it was very practical. You know, look around. What's going on around you? Are there trains coming? You know, what do I do? And again, this is the same model we use you know, with the kids in my facility is stop, look, and listen. What's going on in your head? What's going on around you? Stop. Don't react. You know, take the time to Think it through. Am I doing the right thing? You know, and yeah, sometimes you're not always going to do the right thing, but the fact is you've got tools to increase
Massimo Rigotti: Right.
Bernie Glos: that probability significantly.
Massimo Rigotti: And what is the most practical way to to catch yourself other than just trying to slow yourself down before you're reaching for that drink or drug or doing the doing what the hot thought is going to lead you towards?
Bernie Glos: I think it's being able just to step back sometime. You know, it's a concept that that we used often in working with our violent kids called mindfulness. Being aware, you know, and being aware that there's a a psychiatrist who does some online programming on PBS, Dr. Daniel Lehman, and he talked about basically don't believe everything your brain tells you. So it means, you know, being able to say, Does it make sense, you know? And to be able to just slow down the response a little bit so it's not just automatic, you know, it's not like catching a ball in a field. It's where I basically say, What's going on? you know, and just briefly kind of step back a little bit and become less reactive. Yeah, there are times, you know, in danger, you know, somebody pulls in front of us on a on a crowded highway, we hit the brakes, and that's good. But that approach doesn't work in every situation. And it means just being able to say, wait a minute, what's going on here? Just, you know, being less quick and less reactive and a bit more thoughtful, a bit more trying to understand what's really going on here, you know, and trying to become aware of that and trying to think about it rather than just rushing with some response very quickly.
Massimo Rigotti: Yeah, I like that a lot. Now you write about the addiction making family and the unspoken rules like being perfect, playing it safe, and never showing your true feelings. Could you walk us through where those rules come from and why they set someone up for, exactly this kind of hot thought later in life?
Bernie Glos: Well, sometimes there are things that where do we learn, to deal with things, what are the models we have? And sometimes it's our parents, you know. And my experience as a psychologist for these, you know, fifty-five years is that basically kids have three choices. They just follow along in lockstep and do the same thing. They stop and think, Yeah, okay, I understand what they're doing, but I may do something different. Or they react and do the exact complete opposite, you know. So there are some options there. What are some of the things? there are things that basically help us become irrational. And if we follow along, for example, be perfect. everybody has to be happy about what happens. So you need to make sure everybody's happy. The whole goal is to make people happy. It's not to be honest. It's not to be truthful, it's to make everybody happy. Secondly, playing safe. Never take a risk. Never fail. And you know, life has risks. if we're going to succeed, we sometimes have to take some reasonable risks. And sometimes those risks fail, but you know, that's part of life. It's a learning experience. Another thing that sometimes addiction making families say is don't be selfish. Please others, help others, not yourself. And take care of everybody else except your own. Now, I think it's important we are helpful to others. And doing it in an appropriate way makes us better. But the thing is, we also have to look after ourselves. And we have to make sure that needs are being met, relationships are being maintained, and that we simply don't just jump into something and let it absorb us. Because pretty soon we don't have an identity of our own. something other is stick to the script. Don't see things as they really are because you cannot handle it. Keep the illusion of what our family is. Again, it's this movement away from reality. And one of the things we know, especially from looking at those five ways of looking at thoughts, when we start developing irrational thinking. It starts creating some issues for us where we become automatons, you know, we become androids. We just move in reaction, and don't express your true feelings. Sometimes, you know, in families, the mode is here never say what's really going on inside of you, never say how you feel. And then what ends up happening is people keep stuffing their feelings. And then in situations where it's important to do that, not only for you, but the situation, they don't know how. How do I do that? How do I appropriately say what's going on? one of the things we also focused on, and I focus on this, you know, even in treatment, is looking at the basic four communication skills. And this is something our schools need to focus on. We forget that there are basic ways of communicating. and one of them is expressing appropriately what you feel. Because to things we always communicate facts or feelings. And the thing with the fact is it's always important that we say let me see, I think this is what you said rather than uh-huh. And with the feelings, it's appropriately expressing them and then being able to respond to them. And that's important, For example, instead of determining what somebody's feeling is, you say, you seem upset about something, are you? where you're not pushing them into some corner, but you're trying to establish communication. And one of the important things that I think is part of not only addiction, but of growing up to be a mature human being, is that we learn to communicate. We learn to listen. We learn to communicate and try to understand rather than presuming. that we try to understand. So we ask the question, gee, are you upset? Do you seem upset? Is that true? What's going on? and then you appropriately express how you feel. Instead of screaming and yelling, you say, you know, I'm very disappointed in this whole thing. I had some other expectations. And I communicate it in a way that it's not destructive. Because what ends up happening is if we grow up with a belief or self-talk that says, Don't express your feelings. At some point the feelings will take over because there are situations where the feelings are going to rise up. And what's going to happen then is we're going to blow up literally. Because instead of dealing with them at the moment in an appropriate way, they sit there percolating and pretty soon boom.
Massimo Rigotti: so this brings up a very interesting question for the modern era. Everything you just talked about is image management. You're basically you're teaching your child how to manage their image and how they look to the world rather than how they truly feel. And now you couple that with so many of the youth today that are embedded in social media and the pressure of keeping up an image that may not even be truthful to their own. Do you think that that adds to addiction making for the
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: youth today.
Bernie Glos: Yes. I think when the farther away we get from being ourselves, the more difficult it is to handle things. And addiction becomes the quick fix. It becomes the calming moment, the soothing moment. When somehow I can pull away from this unreality. But the fact is that if we truly try to come to an understanding of who we are. Act as we are appropriately, and then we help people that you know we accept people for who they are, we're not all the same, and we understand that and don't get upset by that, you know. But again, the process is communicating, communicating true facts, communicating feelings, and not making judgments of what people are feeling without really asking them first.
Massimo Rigotti: So here's what I find fascinating. you spent your career on two very different populations, kids and juvenile detention, and now more recently you're working with high achieving adults and workplace environments. Do the same rules apply in both areas or have you learned anything
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: from the other?
Bernie Glos: I think the rules are basically the same. I think the the facts are basically the same. Namely, we have core beliefs that drive behavior and ultimately feelings. And it's important number one to discover through looking at our self talk, what are these core beliefs? Do they make sense? Are they realistic? You know, go back to A Frog. You know, if this this expectation I have, and that's the other thing is what is my expectation? Are my expectations of others? in in one of the manuals we wrote, my social worker there added a concept that she created, and her name was Faye. We call it Faye's formula, and that is expectations minus reality equals pain. In other words, How are we seeing things as they are really? Or are we somehow making some interpretation that doesn't fit and in the end causes us to interact inappropriately with an individual, a setting, or anything? So that's why I think it's consistent. You know, whether you're dealing with a teenager, whether you're dealing with an adult, basically you need to look at What are those thought processes going on? Are you aware of what's going on in your head? and in some ways, even with adults, there's a book that came out some years ago that talked about the brain, and it gave an example that our brain works something like Abraham Lincoln's cabinet. Dolores Kearns Goodwin, who's a great American historian, wrote a book called A Team of Rivals. And the brilliance of Abraham Lincoln was that he put people around him who did not share his views, who had different ideas. And the thing there was when you then put the thing together, you're likely to get a better product because you can somehow, how do we make sense out of all these possibilities? Well, what our brain does is say, you know, as the book mentioned, our brain sends us a lot of signals. There's a lot of competing things going on in our heads. Which one are we gonna listen to? And are we just gonna react to it or are we gonna stop and say, Yeah, what's going on in my head here? am I seeing this appropriately? You know, being aware of what's going on in our heads, what's going on in us, rather than either trying to create some image and then try to act to it, which won't work very well, or simply just reacting, Being like that pinball, bouncing off of everything and what happens I react to rather than how do I take control? How do I manage my role in this situation?
Massimo Rigotti: In the end, mindfulness always will win out in in making
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: sure that you will make the best decision, I think. Yeah.
Bernie Glos: Yes. And it's, you know, it goes back to this awareness. sometimes people are not aware of why they do things. And then, one of the things, we did in terms of helping people do that, again, based on the rational behavior the training model is doing a thinking report, basically what was going on? What does this tell about you? And is this really what you want to be thinking and holding on? as values and everything else. Do you really want to do that? And in the long run, you know, let's go through the A frog again. Is it going to help you? is it going to make you feel better, get along better? And most importantly, is it going to help you achieve goals that are important? And again, it's the question of what is going on, being aware, and empowering someone to do that. I think one of the key concepts in change Is empowering the individual. we did that working with the young people. We empowered each kid to come up to be able to do something positive. And a real good example of that is, when we ran our center, we had people from all over the country, all I've been in Europe and other places come. The kids always presented about our program. And then I would let people free to talk to staff and kids, and they'd sit with a kid, a kid would explain everything. The kids were empowered. And we did some experimental stuff. For example, I designed a program to work with kids who were very violent, somebody from the state said, could you come and do a presentation at our next conference? And I said, yeah, but two kids from my center will do the presentation. The person kind of looked at me and said, Huh? You getting two kids who are locked up are going to do a presentation at a statewide conference. I said, Yes. Okay. they I found two kids who wanted to do it, and one of them was fairly violent, who never had any violence after he left us, and figured out what we're gonna do and picked them up, drove to Rockford in Illinois. There was a hundred people in the room, you could hear a pin drop. And these two sixteen year old kids from detention did an awesome job. So much so they got almost like a five minute standing ovation at the end. so the question is, every human being has endless potential and possibility, but we have to empower them in the right direction. And that's very important. It's very important. You know, so we have to work. How do we empower them? We have to give them skills to take control and set up where am I going? How am I going to get there? And what are some of the tools I can use.
Massimo Rigotti: Now you've been practicing psychology since nineteen seventy one. Could
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: you walk us through the arc from running clinical care at the Gateway Foundation, helping build DuPage County's drug court? All all of the stuff.
Bernie Glos: Well, I s I I I started out I started out on the faculty of what is now Benedictine University in Lisle Illinois. I did counseling,
Massimo Rigotti: Okay.
Bernie Glos: I did head of the psych department setups, a bull bunch of stuff. then I was supposed to go hit up a research center in Washington and my father got a stroke. I was the only one in the family, so that changed. Did some work for the Diocese of Joliet. Then I decided to do something challenging and moved into the inner city of Chicago. where I worked at a local community mental health center. And in my spree time I just wandered the streets late at night trying to prevent kids from doing violent things. And again, it was a question of connecting and empowering. In fact, a young man in the community when I may came into the community, there were tremendous drive-by shootings in the crowds. And a young man came to me, he says, We need to fix this. I said, Well let's do it. So we met with all the local gang groupings and we got them to sign on a truce and that was the end of drive by shootings in the crowds. Again, is empowering them. How do we empower them to do something positive? and I would mediate some things with people before it got out of hand, you know, and the guns came out. And that was a powerful thing. I left there and joined the faculty of the medical school at UIC in Chicago and the psychiatry department and focused a lot on neuropsychology. And, you know, focused a lot on how the brain works and how this all fits together, I left there and joined Managed Behavioral Healthcare at that time and it was called MedCo and then they finally got absorbed by I think Greenspring. But eventually ultimately I was clinical director for our operation in Illinois, a million and a half people and six thousand providers. And we worked at providing good services and making sure that we dealt with people appropriately, that operation moved to Texas. I didn't want to move also when I lived and worked in the inner city, I took in three kids off the streets who had no place to live and raised them. The oldest one now was fifty seven, the others are in their fifties. They're all doing wonderful with great families. I left there because managed care came along and offered me a you know, came along, we did that. And then they were gonna move to Texas and I thought, I don't wanna move to Texas. And so I joined Gateway Foundation, became actually their first clinical director. And one of my achievements was getting them totally accredited by the joint commission. Instead of separate commissions and then you had separate standards and you go nuts. I got tired of doing that on the road a lot and finally in ninety nine I went to DuPage. They wanted someone to design programs, so helped I was on the team that designed the first drug court for DuPage. And then I designed they wanted to expand the detention center. We designed the program that be received national international recognition. Again it focused on changing thinking. Empowering kids to do the right things. For example, we wrote manuals. Kids were in groups three times a day, seven days a week. I got the kids involved in helping me write the manuals. And this wasn't this wasn't something they they took casually. I give you an example of what happens when you empower people to do good things. I picked a dozen kids, I said, listen, in the next two weeks, could you go over this anger management manual and you know, see if it works, see if you can make it better. The next morning when they came into the dining room and every morning I met every kid, asked them how they were doing. Again, this whole thing of recognition, very important connection. They all came in with their books. And I checked with my midnight staff. They had stayed up all night to go through this 42 page manual. And I said, Good, we'll meet this afternoon, And they went through it. Like one kid said, You needed a cartoon here to help. communicate something, I drew it. Another kid said, I didn't like these stories. I wrote one, which was far better than what I had. Another kid said, you know, maybe this phrasing here would help. Kids participated, and they insisted that their names be in the book. And I said, Well, you know, do you want people to know you were locked up here? And the response was the same. Yes, I want people to know I was here. And again, it's this process of empowering people to take control and do meaningful things that make them feel good about themselves.
Massimo Rigotti: What do you think it is about the tools that you've built that have helped them stick around so long? so much comes and goes in this field and everything's got a trend. what is the thing that holds your stuff so stead fast? Because it's been around for decades now, the the things you're talking about.
Bernie Glos: Yes. I think the things that are very clear. Number one, we need to empower people to take controls of their lives. Number two, we have to help them do it. How do you do it? It's one thing to say, you know, you need to take control, be aware. How do you do it? Again, look at your thinking. Be aware. Is this what you want? Is this really where you want to go? and constantly build a sense of community and growth. we had a facility that had no violence. In fact, I had a there's a group that came in that measures the climate in facilities. They said, We've been doing this for 40 years. So they talked to staff, talked to kids, gave them surveys to fill out. When they were leaving, the guy said to me, This is the safest facility we've ever been in. I can't believe this. There's no violent thinking. And I says, Yeah, there is no violent thinking. Because we've enabled them to do something else. So again, it means empowering them. Connecting and then reinforcing it, constantly. I said we're like ATM machines. Every behavior we see gets us something, a response. And that's the other part of this, that the connection part is to recognize, to constantly empower. I've worked with a lot of violent kids in my career. People would say, you're crazy. You don't work on the streets. You're crazy. You could die. I said, no. No, the people are kids, even the most violent, are very protective for two reasons. Number one, if someone treats them with dignity and respect. And number two, if they believe you really care. That
Massimo Rigotti: Mm. Yeah.
Bernie Glos: prevents violence from anyone. And and so I think those are the important things to give people control of where they're going. To empower them on how to do it and let them know yes, you can can take control of your life. You can make changes, you can be the one, and then to reinforce that. Because I'm basically a behaviorist. You know, B. F. Skinner's my hero. And the thing is, we never take anything for granted, never take a behavior for granted. When anyone does anything, always be aware, always recognize. And this is very powerful. Very powerful. it's just that people know that somehow there's somebody there that cares. in a way that helps them make change, and that becomes very powerful. Again, how do you do it? Look at your thinking. Look at the thinking. Is that what you really want to think? Does that make sense? Is it rational? Is it better? The tools to do it and then reinforce their use.
Massimo Rigotti: So Bernie, the SOBER method begins with stoic, which
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: radically owning what is actually in your control. And then the exact moment where your five question tests want someone to stop and ask whether it's that thought's even real. And from there, the method moves into observe, which is naming what is actually happening without judgment and spin. And that's precisely where your hot thought work lives is
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: catching that thought before the decision. And
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: for For a high achiever, the stakes are not abstract. You know, one hot thought in the wrong moment will cost them their license, a promotion, a marriage, you know, it's it's intense. Everything could could be lost. So for the
Bernie Glos: Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: listener who maybe has spent their whole life being one who claims they've never lost control, what happens the first time they catch a hot thought instead of just riding it out?
Bernie Glos: Well, I mean you have to prepare people for being aware of what's going on around them so that things don't get out of control. Again, so that you're in control rather than your brain alone, where you're able to say, wait a minute, slow down here, wait a minute, and to understand, your view of other people. People do and say stupid things. we're not all perfect human beings. And the thing is we don't have to react to everything like it's the end of the world to have a sense of balance and reality and be able to say, okay, let's move on from there, and to be able to understand that. we live in an imperfect world. So we need to understand that and that way so that we don't overreact to things, to be aware of and again match our expectations. We need realistic expectations. because expectations are similar to self-talk and core beliefs. Fay Jackson very eloquently said, expectations minus reality is a lot of pain, So have reasonable expectations. because when you do that, then people won't feel like somehow they're being put on the spot. Because we can, kind of unconsciously communicate our expectations to others, and if they pick up on it, They're gonna feel awkward and not know why. And one of the things we don't wanna do is create awkward feelings in people because that way it makes it much more difficult, to be able to stop and think. that that kind of approach.
Massimo Rigotti: Well, everyone listening, before we go, here is one sober move this week. An observe step inspired by Bernie. The next time you feel a craving, an urge, or the pull to snap at someone, stop and write down the exact sentence running through your head in that moment. That's your hot thought. Then run through two of Bernie's A-Frog questions. First, does this thinking actually keep me healthy? Or is it setting me up for a mess? And second, is this based on what's real, or is it just my interpretation of the situation? If it fails either question, you've caught it before it caught you. So write down what you noticed, and that's the difference between reacting on autopilot and actually choosing. Bernie we have a tradition on this podcast where each guest answers a question left by my last guest. Today's question comes from Lolita Guarin, who left you this question. In what age would you like to live in and why?
Bernie Glos: I'm quite happy with the current time period. I think that to to say, let's go back to a different time is unrealistic. And I think that if if you're content enough in being able to manage yourself any time period with its the the different challenges is is is a welcome thing. So I'm quite happy with whatever time period I was in, and even the one now, you know, and I think that that's a healthy way to look at it and saying, Let's not go back on time and dream. Let's be real, you know. Exact and again, what is it in this time frame that I need to be aware of and how do I make it happen?
Massimo Rigotti: I think that's the healthiest possible answer that you could give, and it's certainly what I think. Why go w live in the past? You should always live in
Bernie Glos: Yes.
Massimo Rigotti: the present and and into the future. So, Bernie, do you have a question you'd like to leave my next guest?
Bernie Glos: How do you become aware of the risks in your life?
Massimo Rigotti: that's a good one. I look forward to that answer. Well, to everyone listening, I want you to keep observing and journaling your own behaviors daily. My new book, Digital Sober Method, is available now anywhere books are sold. If putting down your phone is the fight you're in, this one is your solution. I'm Massimo Rigotti and this is the SOBER Method Podcast. Please follow, like, subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with anyone who needs to hear it. Remember, your future is sober.
