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Hey, everybody, welcome to the Movie Guide. I am Brendan
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Danner of the four Finger Discount Network. Joan right, now, bye,
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Gy Davis, what's up, Dana and the Leonard Malton. How
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are you today, sir?
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I am fine, Thank you.
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Now today guy, we're here to discuss a film or
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the Bourne Identity.
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Why are we discussing the Bourne Identity? Well, extreme ways
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are back again. Indeed.
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Yeah.
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Look, the Odyssey is currently in cinemas. By this time,
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it has made something like eleven billion dollars and actually
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cured all disease. So yeah, well done the Odyssey. Okay,
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who knows, it's probably made something like twenty million and
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got like three star reviews across the board. Who knows.
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But who is the star of the Odyssey. One Matt Damon.
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He's playing the original action hero Odysseus. So in celebration
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and commemoration, we thought we would step back in time
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some twenty five years to Damon's first adventure. I'd say
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it's his first venture into action heroics. He's playing international
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Man of Mystery Jason Bourne in The Bourne Identity. This
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is just a movie I really like. It's one that
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changed the game for big screen action and intrigue. As
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far as I'm concerned, it sort of rewrote the blueprint
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for how such movies will be made for a good
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part of the twenty first century. Leonard, do you agree
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or am I way off base?
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Well, Isaak, You're not off base at all. I remember
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being on the press junket for this film when it
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was new, and the discussion point was whether audiences would
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accept Matt Damon as an action hero. Yeah, And the
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answer was yes because it was a well written part
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and with a lot of backstory. In fact, the whole
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film is backstory, isn't it, in trying to puzzle together
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his own life, and it's very well directed by Doug
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Lyman and well written as well. From the Robert Lovetham
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a series of novels. I grew up just as tangentially.
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I grew up in Bergen County, New Jersey, which was
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the homes one of the first malls, if not the
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first mall in the United States, Bergen Mall, and they
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had what they used to call a straw hat theater.
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The straw hat theater chains were legit theaters that fostered
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stock companies and turing companies of plays with stars who
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would go from city to city doing a play for
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one week at a time. And the man who ran
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the playhouse on the mall was Robert love Them for real, Yeah,
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for real. So I knew his name before it became
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a bestseller name, before we had any idea that he
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had aspirations to write fiction.
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Because growing up, you'd go over to friends house and
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if the dad was a Rida Ludlum would be on
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the shelf. He was kind of the shorthand of course, well,
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and I don't mean to say dispaging one, I said this,
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but kind of airport novels you would pick up, you know,
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if you were on a flat someway, Hey, you pick
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up a couple of the Identity, the whole Croft, Covenant
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or they were always the something there, And yeah, they
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were terrific.
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Really Yeah.
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By the early twenty first century, though, they would have
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seemed kind of old hats. So this is a great
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reinvention and a great sort of injection of energy into
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those I want to talk about that, but first of all,
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I do want to talk about Damon, and I guess
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get your impression of why there was this feeling that
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he may not be right for this kind of role
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because he was not the first choice for the studio.
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I mean they were looking at people like Brad Pitt
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and Russell Crowe. I remember thinking, yeah, he doesn't have
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enough miles on the meter to capably do this, And
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of course we were all proven wrong. But what were
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your thoughts on it?
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I was hopeful that I was doubtful. Yeah, I think
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he acquitted himself quite well, and the films that he'd
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made up to that time. Certainly he's good in good
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will hunting and he's good in saving Private Ryan, but
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that didn't indicate that he could command the screen. Yeah,
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you know, take charge and indulge in the kind of
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hand to hand action, let alone behind the steering wheel
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of a car in the midst of an incredible, truly
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incredible series of chases. That's what I take with me
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from Vanders point of twenty twenty six. What I remembered
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most until I watched the movie again the other night
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with my wife, were those car chases. Gosh, they are sensational.
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They haven't lost their one ounce of their punch.
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No, and that's looked testament to a lot of people.
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The Yeah, of course, the stunt team I believe that
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sort of veterans stunt coordinator Dan Bradley's behind that. He's
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a name that you'll find on many, many action movies.
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But I think you've got to talk about Doug Limon's
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direction in that as well. The fact that it's scored
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to this all time techno classic Ready Steady Go by
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paul Oakenfeld. That really adds a little salt and pepper
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to that one. But it's so well done. It's got
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character stuff in it as well. I mean it's sort
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of capped by one of the great gags of the
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movie that first of all, they're doing this car chase
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and there's beaten up Mini minor, but it comes to
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an end and the two people in the car, Matt
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Damon as Jason Bourne and Franka Potenta, they're sort of
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looking at each other as a couple that has had
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an unexpected but also quite fantastic one night stand. That's
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the way I view it. They're sort of looking at
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it like what just happened? But they've gone through something
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together they can't quite explain, but they both feel very
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sort of energized and confused by it. That car chase
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is terrific and a lot of the action. It is
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so well done. I want to go back to Damon
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quickly though, because you're right. He was, of course coming
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across as a very capable and very charismatic young lead,
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but he really needed something like this as well. I mean,
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he came out of the gates so hot with goodwill hunting.
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He and Affleck won the Oscar for it, of course
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for writing it, and you know he's saving he's Private
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Ryan in saving Private Ryan. But after that, the movies
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that he's the lead in, a lot of them don't
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really take. I mean we're talking about movies like All
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the Pretty Horses of the adaptation of the corn At
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McCarthy novel that had a famously complicated and torture production
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and ended up kind of compromised as a result. You've
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got misfires like the Legend of Bag of Vance. Damon's
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not terrible in any of these, but at the same time,
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they're not the kind of movies that a young leading
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man on the rise would really need on their resume.
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He's in Ocean's eleven, he's part of the Oceans eleven ensemble.
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That's great, but he needs something that's his name above
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the title and fortunately this was it. I mean, and
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like I said, I remember thinking, yeah, does he have
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the minds for this? And it turns out he does.
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It kind of works that Jason Bourne as a young
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man who's just been recruited and starting, he's got some
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air of shall we say, integrity about him. But Damon
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also carries a lot of the weight to the world
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on his shoulders. It seems. He plays tired and drawn
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and exhausted very very well, which is something you wouldn't
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expect from a man in his early thirties. He does
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such a great job in this he does.
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He's completely believable, and he and Franko Poteta are a
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good match. She was very hot from a film that
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hot fire around the world called Run Lola Run. It
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didn't really pay off into a long starring career for her,
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but in this role she is well cast and they
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play off each other very very nicely.
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They really do. I'm glad you mentioned Run Lola Run,
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because that feels to me like one of the many
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well springs of inspiration that this movie kind of draws
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from in putting this together or in mounting the Bourne identity.
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Stacy Snyder, who was the head of Universal at the time,
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said that she was bored of the way action movies
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were going in the late nineties. Now, we of course
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love those movies like The Rock and con Air and
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things like that, but you look at this kind of
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movie and it feels so remarkably different. It is so
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lean and stripped down and kind of an armor piercing
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bullet of a movie as compared to these big lumberings
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or of blockbusters. And yeah, she felt that they needed
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a new vision, and she looked to someone like Lyman,
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who only had a few independent movies under his belt.
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But I mean, he's drawing on things like empty be
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stylistic tricks, and he's drawing on European cinema like running
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all a round, and he's even looking back to the
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seventies and guys like William Freakin and John Frankenheimer. And
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you get something new and interesting as a result. And
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it's really It changed action movies in such a great
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way for a decade, a decade and a half, I
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reckon it did.
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Some of that has to accrue to the credit of
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Paul Greengrass, who took over the directing chores from Doug
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Lyman for the second and third Born movies, which are
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The Born Supremacy and The Born Ultimatum, Ultimatum if you
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prefer Greengrass wanted you to, I think experience firsthand Vertigo
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for some of the way he stays point of view
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in their action scenes maybe a little too immersive at times.
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I just want to see the action now, I don't
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want to feel the.
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Action, correct. Yeah, Grengrass, Who's back Down was in documentaries.
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He really throws you into it and sort of it
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puts you in the midst of the chaos. And speaking
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of chaos, so the Bourne Identity was a famously chaotic production,
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but that seems to be part of the course for
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Doug Lyman, who has one of the most interesting roller
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coaster type careers. I mean, he's got his name on
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some really some big hits and some really influential and
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impactful stuff like Bourne Identity, like the Tom Cruise movie
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Edge of Tomorrow, like Mister and Missus Smith with Brad
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Pitt and angelin Na Jolly. But he's also got his
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name on some real turkeys, and you hear stories constantly about. Yeah,
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the sort of the mayhem that he engenders behind the
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camera or during a shoot, there's really a Lyman production
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that runs smoothly, and sometimes that chaos ends up on
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the screen and sometimes you get gold out of it
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as a result. He seems like a very very interesting fellow,
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but someone who people want to work with him, and
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Cruz has worked with him twice, Yeah, and studios keep
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throwing money at him, so he must be doing something.
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Right a partner.
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I think he needs a strong hand behind him, and
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I think he went through a couple of producers on
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the ball identity. But honestly, I think the secret weapon
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of this movie and perhaps of the franchise is screenwriter
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Tony Gilroy, who's probably one of the best screenwriters working
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at the moment. I agree, Yeah. Now, he was apparently
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very responsible for taking out a lot of the big
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action beats and really making this more about character. And
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you see that this has got really sort of tangy,
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terrific dialogue that also explains a bit about the characters
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in this situation. It does what the best dialogue does.
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I mean, it's eminently quotable, but it's also functional. So
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he's really really good at that. And it seems like
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the Bourne movies work best when you've got this sort
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of perfect storm of elements because you haven't just got
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the Born trilogy. You've got a couple of other movies
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in there. There is a spin off called The Bourne
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Legacy that was written and directed by Gilroy, but it
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doesn't have Damon in the lead. It has Jeremy Renner.
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It's not bad, but it doesn't quite work. And then
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later on you've got a little bit of a reboot
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called Jason Bourne, which has Damon and Greengrass and another
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writer behind the script, and it has no Giroy and
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it doesn't quite work. I think you need Gilroy. I
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think you need Damon and either Grangrass or Lyneman. But yeah,
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Bourne is it requires a certain, a specific set of skills,
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shall we say.
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And Gilroy comes by his talent naturally. He's the son
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of Frank Gilroy, a Poll of Supplies winning playwright and author,
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TV show creator, very prolific and well respected guy.
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Yeah, a lot of talent in the Gilroy family. Because
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I think Tony Gilroy's brother Dan is a screenwriter and
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director of his own with his own reputation, and their
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brother John is an editor as well. I want to
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talk about this trilogy, shall we say, the original trilogy
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of Bourne movies Identity, Supremacy and Ultimatum. Is Identity the
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best of this original trilogy? A lot of people have
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hired Supremacy. What do you think?
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Yes, I'm for the original, I'm for the first and best.
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That's a strong vote, saying saying, yes.
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It's different to the other two, but yeah, I think
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I'm more partial this one that I tend to go
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back to more than the other ones. They're all well made.
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Having said that, you should never watch them back to back.
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This is an example of franchise filmmaking at its best,
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but also a really good example of why you should
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space your movies out, because I did a thing where
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it's like, oh, I'm going to take the day off
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and watch all three Born movies, and you see that
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while they are extremely well made, extremely well constructed, they
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were also kind of formulaic. They do have Okay we're
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now going to this part of the world and there
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will be an action scene. Okay, we're now going here
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and there will be a car chase and this will
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be revealed at this point, and they are kind of same,
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same but different. So yeah, it's good to space them
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that by a few years. You get the reminder of
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why you like them, but you get a little something
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new every time. So but I have to agree with you.
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I think Identity is probably the best out of the trilogy.
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And the Paras setting doesn't hurt.
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Paras setting, European setting does not hurt. That's the other thing.
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I mean. I think we were I think the studio
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and the producers were a little angry at Lieman because
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he's like, why are you taking us to Europe? You know,
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we could very easily film this m Vancouver. They speak
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French there as well, he said, because Vancouver does not
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look like Paris. That makes a lot of sense. Really,
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I mean, well that does make a lot of sense.
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But also filming it in Europe, filming it in these
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foreign locations, you feel as slightly off balance as Bourne
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does as well. You're a stranger in a strange land
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as well. True, I want to talk about most Valuable Player.
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I think it really has to be Damon because it's
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a reinvention for him in so many ways. You're right
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in what you said about in him being a very
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physical performance. He's like a coiled spring in this isn't
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he I mean, he sort of rebuilt himself as this weapon.
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He carries himself like someone who knows and handled themselves.
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There's a terrific fight scene when he's gone back to
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this apartment in Paris that is supposedly his but he
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knows nothing about. And he's yeah, confronted by this assassin
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and Damon starts revealing these incredible martial arts skills that
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have only been hinted at before then. But he's one
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hundred percent convincing pulling these moves off. It's really great. Staff.
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Yes, it's an advertisement for a muscle memory.
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Well, that's yeah. I think that's something that Damon talked
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about because he was very You interviewed him as well.
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You sent me a terrific picture of you and Damon
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conversing about the film. And I think he came to
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Australia to promote each of the Bourne movies and I
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spoke to him for each of them, and you could
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see each time the evolution of Damon as a as
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an actor and as a person and as someone in
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the showbiz system. He seemed to be getting more and
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more confident every time, and he's always struck me as
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someone who is never sort of shy of confidence. The
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other great thing is that He's always been very good
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at thinking on screen. You always buy Damon as like
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a man of not just action, but a man who
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can think his way or maneuver his way out of
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a situation rather than sort of crashed through. So I
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think this was a really good role for him in
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that regard. There are so many other great actors in
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this as well. I mean, we talked about Brian Cox
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recently when we did our episode on Troy. He's in
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a different mode here, but he's kind of villainous, but
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not as let's say, outlandishly, so he's a little more
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sort of bureaucratically evil. Right, But you've got a tremendous
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villain in Chris Coop, but the always wonderful Chris Cooper,
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who's the head of the Treadstone program. I don't know
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exactly what he's doing here, but he seems to be
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playing a guy who's both cold blooded and extremely angry.
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Not many actors I think could pull that off, but
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Cooper does it so well. I really really like him
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in this. And Clive Owen, who was on the rise here.
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He was not necessarily on a whole lot of people's
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radar yet, but I think this would have helped in
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that because he's got kind of a bit part really,
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or a cameo as this hired killer who sent to
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dispatch Jason Bourne. They have one scene together, Damon and Owen,
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and it's really remarkable work by and he packs a
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whole lifetime of experience and into this one scene. It's
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fantastic work, and I'm pretty sure it helped put him
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on the map and made a lot of people start
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thinking about him for the larger roles. I think he
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was a lot of people's first choice for Bond as
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a result of this.
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Yes, I was one of those people were rooting for
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him to get James One absolutely.
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Speaking of Bond, I talked about how this sort of
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became the blueprint for action movies moving forward in the
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twenty and twenty tens. I honestly don't think you get
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the change from Double O Seven's Dye Another Day to
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Casino Royale without the influence of the Bourne identity. I
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don't think you get Batman Begins without the Bourne identity.
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I don't even think you get the change in the
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Mission Impossible franchise without it. I think they looked at
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what Bourne did, It's like, we need to make these
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a little bit more realistic, a little bit more grounded,
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while keeping that propulsive and exhilarating sense of action. Borne
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Identity does it as well as just about anything.
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But we make a great case for that guy, and
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I take you're right.
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We were talking about MVPs, but let's talk about the
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ones who were on the other side of the camera
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or even in the composing suite because school composer John Powell,
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he's one of my favorite composers. He's done some really
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terrific stuff and his accusing for this is fantastic. Yeah,
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I really like what he does here. Although we've also
347
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give a shout out to techno artist Moby his song
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Extreme Ways, which is over the end credits of all
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of them, and so it became the anthem of the
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series and is synonymous with the Bourne Identity. So yeah,
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maybe Moby is the MVP of the Bourne Identity double feature.
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This is pretty lean to mean. This is under two hours,
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The Bourne Identity. Now, I recommended that you do not
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watch more than one Born movie in a setting. Watch
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Borne Identity, take a week, then watch Supremacy. See how
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you go. But here's one that I thought might work
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well with this I mentioned John Frankenheimer earlier. He's a
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fantastic and perhaps underrated filmmaker. He's got some terrific films
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on his resume, and in nineteen ninety eight he made
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a spy thriller called Ronan. Yeah, this is a similarly
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lean and mean mashup of American and European sensibilities. It's
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got a lot of cars driving at recklessly dangerous speeds
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throughout European cities. But it might have had a bit
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of influence on how Lyman and co. Went about The
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Bourne Identity. But it's kind of an underrated, underseen film.
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But people who like Ronan are kind of ride or
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die for it, and I am one of them. I
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think it would work really well in conjunction with the
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Bourne Identity.
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I would rather get away from cars running around Europe
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for a second feature. I'd rather do something a little
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out of the box, outside of the box, and they
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don't know what that is.
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How about Before Sunrise with Ethan Hawk and Julie Delpy,
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another European story about two mismatched people making their way
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through a European city.
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That actually is a very good idea, you know, a
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nice idea that's an idea that bears merit because it's
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a complete change of piece. Nothing in common with this
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except the fact that it's the same hemisphere.
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In news that will shock the world, Guy Davis had
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00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:52.960
a pretty good idea for a double feature. But that's
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the Bourne identity.
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With the Bourne identity, was this the first film with
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you as a reviewer that you considered Damon to be
386
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a genuine movie star?
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00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:03.759
Let me just look at this resume here and give
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me one moment.
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00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:07.799
Because Goodwill Hunting was ninety seven, right Will Hunting ninety seven?
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00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:10.759
But even before then he was on the rise. He's
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00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:13.480
in a great movie called Courage under Fire. He's got
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00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:16.240
a supporting role in that opposite Denzel Washington and Meg Ryan.
393
00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:18.240
But everyone came out of Courage under Fire and going,
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00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:20.240
who's this kid? He's really good. And he'd been in
395
00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:24.559
movies all throughout the nineties as well, just in in supporting,
396
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:25.759
nothing really starring.
397
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:28.039
He wasn't the name at the top of the poster yet.
398
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:30.799
No, no, But just before Goodwill Hunting came out, he's
399
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:32.920
in a movie called The rain Maker. It's like a
400
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.160
John Grisham legal thriller. And that's really the thing that
401
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.640
sort of put him on the map, because those Grisham
402
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:40.240
movies were just making money. Hand over this and I
403
00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:43.079
feel the lead in that that sort of cementsia. But yeah,
404
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:45.920
Goodwill Hunting was. Oh he's a star in this and
405
00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:47.839
he co wrote it, and there's such a great story
406
00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:50.519
about him and affleck as these as these two young
407
00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:52.640
guys on the rise. But yeah, I mean looking at
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00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:55.720
him in this, it really does feel like he's kicking
409
00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:56.400
it up a level.
410
00:19:57.079 --> 00:19:59.880
Well, there was the talented mister Ripley.
411
00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:01.880
Of course, Oh of course, Oh my gosh, I can't
412
00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:02.839
believe I've got about that.
413
00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:04.880
He earned his stripes by this time.
414
00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:09.079
What are your memories Leonard of the Athleck damon winning
415
00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:11.880
the Oscar for Google Hunting ear What was your thoughts
416
00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:14.480
on their story? Can you remember that time?
417
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.640
I remember it well because they were working at that
418
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:23.440
time for Harvey Weinstein and the Mirrimax Company, and Merrimax
419
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:27.240
was the cutting edge. Merrimax was the place you wanted
420
00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:31.039
to be, except if you were actually working for the
421
00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:36.640
boons in charge. But they acquired great films for US distribution.
422
00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:41.759
They produced great films for international distribution, and my wife
423
00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.279
and I got invited to the Mirramax Oscar party pre
424
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:49.440
oscar party, and we saw Matt Damon and Ben Affleck
425
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:53.640
with their mothers who they had brought out from Boston
426
00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:56.640
for the occasion. And I think I even have a
427
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.960
snapshot somewhere then with their moms, and it was nice.
428
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:04.799
It was sweet to see that this is what recognition
429
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:09.119
brought with it, the ability to you know, sank publicly
430
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:14.119
thank ensure the occasion with their mothers. There was some
431
00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:18.200
scuttle but at the time about someone else doing a
432
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:23.880
polished rewrite of that screenplay after they turned it in.
433
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.559
I don't want to rattle skeletons and closets after so
434
00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:31.200
many years, because they've both done such really fine work,
435
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.039
and not In particularly seems to be a good guy,
436
00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:40.400
so I don't want to besmirch his reputation, especially just casually.
437
00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:42.839
I think one of the big names who was supposedly
438
00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:46.039
the rewriter or the ghost writer of Goodwill Hunting has
439
00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:47.680
gone on the records saying, look, I had nothing to
440
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:50.119
do with that. He may have given like a note
441
00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:52.799
about the script, but he had nothing to do with
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00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:53.480
rewriting it.
443
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So what do you say, print the legend?
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I was say print religion, and also I don't doubt
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the sincerity of Matt and Ben wanting to share Hollywood's
446
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Night of Night with their mothers. But it's also just
447
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:07.839
it's a great story as well, isn't. I mean, they
448
00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:10.880
seem very very savvy about how they presented themselves to
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the world, and it's like having these two young guys
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was like, well, you know, we're just a couple of
451
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lads from Boston who you really love our mu It's like,
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you know what you're doing, guys.
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All righty guys. Hope you enjoyed this review here of
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the Born Identity. Don't forget you can't continue to support
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00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:28.000
the show by a rating and reviewing us on Apple
456
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.440
Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you are finding this show.
457
00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.279
It's poorting us on Patreon for early and ad free access,
458
00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:35.359
as well as access to exclusive reviews. Link for that
459
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:37.839
is in the description of this podcast, and keep sending
460
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:40.680
through your questions to the Movie Guide podcast at gmail
461
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:42.599
dot com. We'd love to hear from each and every
462
00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:44.480
single one of you, and we'll answer all your questions
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00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:47.559
on the next Milton Mailback episode. But for now, Guy Davis,
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00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:50.039
thanks for joining us. Thank you, Dan thank you the letter.
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Malton always a player and we will catch you all
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in the next episode of the Movie Guide with Malton
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and Davis
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00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:15.240
Hey, everybody, welcome to the Movie Guide. I am Brendan
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00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:18.480
Danner of the four Finger Discount Network. Joan right, now, bye,
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00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:21.879
Gy Davis, what's up, Dana and the Leonard Malton. How
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00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:22.640
are you today, sir?
5
00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:24.679
I am fine, Thank you.
6
00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:27.480
Now today guy, we're here to discuss a film or
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00:00:27.559 --> 00:00:28.399
the Bourne Identity.
8
00:00:28.679 --> 00:00:31.120
Why are we discussing the Bourne Identity? Well, extreme ways
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00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:32.159
are back again. Indeed.
10
00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:32.880
Yeah.
11
00:00:32.920 --> 00:00:35.679
Look, the Odyssey is currently in cinemas. By this time,
12
00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:38.799
it has made something like eleven billion dollars and actually
13
00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:43.479
cured all disease. So yeah, well done the Odyssey. Okay,
14
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who knows, it's probably made something like twenty million and
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got like three star reviews across the board. Who knows.
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But who is the star of the Odyssey. One Matt Damon.
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He's playing the original action hero Odysseus. So in celebration
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and commemoration, we thought we would step back in time
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some twenty five years to Damon's first adventure. I'd say
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it's his first venture into action heroics. He's playing international
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Man of Mystery Jason Bourne in The Bourne Identity. This
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is just a movie I really like. It's one that
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changed the game for big screen action and intrigue. As
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far as I'm concerned, it sort of rewrote the blueprint
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for how such movies will be made for a good
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part of the twenty first century. Leonard, do you agree
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or am I way off base?
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Well, Isaak, You're not off base at all. I remember
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being on the press junket for this film when it
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was new, and the discussion point was whether audiences would
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accept Matt Damon as an action hero. Yeah, And the
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answer was yes because it was a well written part
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and with a lot of backstory. In fact, the whole
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film is backstory, isn't it, in trying to puzzle together
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his own life, and it's very well directed by Doug
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Lyman and well written as well. From the Robert Lovetham
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a series of novels. I grew up just as tangentially.
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I grew up in Bergen County, New Jersey, which was
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the homes one of the first malls, if not the
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first mall in the United States, Bergen Mall, and they
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had what they used to call a straw hat theater.
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The straw hat theater chains were legit theaters that fostered
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stock companies and turing companies of plays with stars who
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would go from city to city doing a play for
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one week at a time. And the man who ran
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the playhouse on the mall was Robert love Them for real, Yeah,
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for real. So I knew his name before it became
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a bestseller name, before we had any idea that he
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had aspirations to write fiction.
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Because growing up, you'd go over to friends house and
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if the dad was a Rida Ludlum would be on
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the shelf. He was kind of the shorthand of course, well,
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and I don't mean to say dispaging one, I said this,
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but kind of airport novels you would pick up, you know,
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if you were on a flat someway, Hey, you pick
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up a couple of the Identity, the whole Croft, Covenant
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or they were always the something there, And yeah, they
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were terrific.
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Really Yeah.
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By the early twenty first century, though, they would have
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seemed kind of old hats. So this is a great
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reinvention and a great sort of injection of energy into
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those I want to talk about that, but first of all,
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I do want to talk about Damon, and I guess
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get your impression of why there was this feeling that
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he may not be right for this kind of role
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because he was not the first choice for the studio.
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I mean they were looking at people like Brad Pitt
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and Russell Crowe. I remember thinking, yeah, he doesn't have
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enough miles on the meter to capably do this, And
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of course we were all proven wrong. But what were
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your thoughts on it?
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I was hopeful that I was doubtful. Yeah, I think
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he acquitted himself quite well, and the films that he'd
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made up to that time. Certainly he's good in good
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will hunting and he's good in saving Private Ryan, but
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that didn't indicate that he could command the screen. Yeah,
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you know, take charge and indulge in the kind of
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hand to hand action, let alone behind the steering wheel
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of a car in the midst of an incredible, truly
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incredible series of chases. That's what I take with me
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from Vanders point of twenty twenty six. What I remembered
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most until I watched the movie again the other night
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with my wife, were those car chases. Gosh, they are sensational.
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They haven't lost their one ounce of their punch.
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No, and that's looked testament to a lot of people.
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The Yeah, of course, the stunt team I believe that
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sort of veterans stunt coordinator Dan Bradley's behind that. He's
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a name that you'll find on many, many action movies.
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But I think you've got to talk about Doug Limon's
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direction in that as well. The fact that it's scored
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to this all time techno classic Ready Steady Go by
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paul Oakenfeld. That really adds a little salt and pepper
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to that one. But it's so well done. It's got
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character stuff in it as well. I mean it's sort
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of capped by one of the great gags of the
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movie that first of all, they're doing this car chase
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and there's beaten up Mini minor, but it comes to
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an end and the two people in the car, Matt
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Damon as Jason Bourne and Franka Potenta, they're sort of
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looking at each other as a couple that has had
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an unexpected but also quite fantastic one night stand. That's
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the way I view it. They're sort of looking at
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it like what just happened? But they've gone through something
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together they can't quite explain, but they both feel very
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sort of energized and confused by it. That car chase
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is terrific and a lot of the action. It is
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so well done. I want to go back to Damon
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quickly though, because you're right. He was, of course coming
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across as a very capable and very charismatic young lead,
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but he really needed something like this as well. I mean,
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he came out of the gates so hot with goodwill hunting.
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He and Affleck won the Oscar for it, of course
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for writing it, and you know he's saving he's Private
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Ryan in saving Private Ryan. But after that, the movies
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that he's the lead in, a lot of them don't
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really take. I mean we're talking about movies like All
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the Pretty Horses of the adaptation of the corn At
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McCarthy novel that had a famously complicated and torture production
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and ended up kind of compromised as a result. You've
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got misfires like the Legend of Bag of Vance. Damon's
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not terrible in any of these, but at the same time,
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they're not the kind of movies that a young leading
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man on the rise would really need on their resume.
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He's in Ocean's eleven, he's part of the Oceans eleven ensemble.
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That's great, but he needs something that's his name above
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the title and fortunately this was it. I mean, and
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like I said, I remember thinking, yeah, does he have
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the minds for this? And it turns out he does.
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It kind of works that Jason Bourne as a young
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man who's just been recruited and starting, he's got some
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air of shall we say, integrity about him. But Damon
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also carries a lot of the weight to the world
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on his shoulders. It seems. He plays tired and drawn
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and exhausted very very well, which is something you wouldn't
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expect from a man in his early thirties. He does
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such a great job in this he does.
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He's completely believable, and he and Franko Poteta are a
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good match. She was very hot from a film that
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hot fire around the world called Run Lola Run. It
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didn't really pay off into a long starring career for her,
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but in this role she is well cast and they
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play off each other very very nicely.
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They really do. I'm glad you mentioned Run Lola Run,
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because that feels to me like one of the many
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well springs of inspiration that this movie kind of draws
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from in putting this together or in mounting the Bourne identity.
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Stacy Snyder, who was the head of Universal at the time,
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said that she was bored of the way action movies
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were going in the late nineties. Now, we of course
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love those movies like The Rock and con Air and
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things like that, but you look at this kind of
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movie and it feels so remarkably different. It is so
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lean and stripped down and kind of an armor piercing
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bullet of a movie as compared to these big lumberings
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or of blockbusters. And yeah, she felt that they needed
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a new vision, and she looked to someone like Lyman,
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who only had a few independent movies under his belt.
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But I mean, he's drawing on things like empty be
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stylistic tricks, and he's drawing on European cinema like running
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all a round, and he's even looking back to the
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seventies and guys like William Freakin and John Frankenheimer. And
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you get something new and interesting as a result. And
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it's really It changed action movies in such a great
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way for a decade, a decade and a half, I
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reckon it did.
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Some of that has to accrue to the credit of
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Paul Greengrass, who took over the directing chores from Doug
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Lyman for the second and third Born movies, which are
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The Born Supremacy and The Born Ultimatum, Ultimatum if you
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prefer Greengrass wanted you to, I think experience firsthand Vertigo
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for some of the way he stays point of view
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in their action scenes maybe a little too immersive at times.
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I just want to see the action now, I don't
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want to feel the.
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Action, correct. Yeah, Grengrass, Who's back Down was in documentaries.
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He really throws you into it and sort of it
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puts you in the midst of the chaos. And speaking
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of chaos, so the Bourne Identity was a famously chaotic production,
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but that seems to be part of the course for
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Doug Lyman, who has one of the most interesting roller
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coaster type careers. I mean, he's got his name on
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some really some big hits and some really influential and
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impactful stuff like Bourne Identity, like the Tom Cruise movie
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Edge of Tomorrow, like Mister and Missus Smith with Brad
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Pitt and angelin Na Jolly. But he's also got his
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name on some real turkeys, and you hear stories constantly about. Yeah,
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the sort of the mayhem that he engenders behind the
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camera or during a shoot, there's really a Lyman production
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that runs smoothly, and sometimes that chaos ends up on
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the screen and sometimes you get gold out of it
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as a result. He seems like a very very interesting fellow,
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but someone who people want to work with him, and
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Cruz has worked with him twice, Yeah, and studios keep
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throwing money at him, so he must be doing something.
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Right a partner.
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I think he needs a strong hand behind him, and
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I think he went through a couple of producers on
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the ball identity. But honestly, I think the secret weapon
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of this movie and perhaps of the franchise is screenwriter
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Tony Gilroy, who's probably one of the best screenwriters working
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at the moment. I agree, Yeah. Now, he was apparently
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very responsible for taking out a lot of the big
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action beats and really making this more about character. And
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you see that this has got really sort of tangy,
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terrific dialogue that also explains a bit about the characters
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in this situation. It does what the best dialogue does.
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I mean, it's eminently quotable, but it's also functional. So
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he's really really good at that. And it seems like
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the Bourne movies work best when you've got this sort
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of perfect storm of elements because you haven't just got
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the Born trilogy. You've got a couple of other movies
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in there. There is a spin off called The Bourne
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Legacy that was written and directed by Gilroy, but it
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doesn't have Damon in the lead. It has Jeremy Renner.
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It's not bad, but it doesn't quite work. And then
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later on you've got a little bit of a reboot
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called Jason Bourne, which has Damon and Greengrass and another
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writer behind the script, and it has no Giroy and
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it doesn't quite work. I think you need Gilroy. I
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think you need Damon and either Grangrass or Lyneman. But yeah,
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Bourne is it requires a certain, a specific set of skills,
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shall we say.
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And Gilroy comes by his talent naturally. He's the son
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of Frank Gilroy, a Poll of Supplies winning playwright and author,
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TV show creator, very prolific and well respected guy.
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Yeah, a lot of talent in the Gilroy family. Because
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I think Tony Gilroy's brother Dan is a screenwriter and
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director of his own with his own reputation, and their
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brother John is an editor as well. I want to
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talk about this trilogy, shall we say, the original trilogy
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of Bourne movies Identity, Supremacy and Ultimatum. Is Identity the
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best of this original trilogy? A lot of people have
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hired Supremacy. What do you think?
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Yes, I'm for the original, I'm for the first and best.
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That's a strong vote, saying saying, yes.
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It's different to the other two, but yeah, I think
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I'm more partial this one that I tend to go
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back to more than the other ones. They're all well made.
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Having said that, you should never watch them back to back.
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This is an example of franchise filmmaking at its best,
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but also a really good example of why you should
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space your movies out, because I did a thing where
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it's like, oh, I'm going to take the day off
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and watch all three Born movies, and you see that
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while they are extremely well made, extremely well constructed, they
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were also kind of formulaic. They do have Okay we're
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now going to this part of the world and there
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will be an action scene. Okay, we're now going here
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and there will be a car chase and this will
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be revealed at this point, and they are kind of same,
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same but different. So yeah, it's good to space them
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that by a few years. You get the reminder of
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why you like them, but you get a little something
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new every time. So but I have to agree with you.
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I think Identity is probably the best out of the trilogy.
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And the Paras setting doesn't hurt.
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Paras setting, European setting does not hurt. That's the other thing.
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I mean. I think we were I think the studio
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and the producers were a little angry at Lieman because
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he's like, why are you taking us to Europe? You know,
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we could very easily film this m Vancouver. They speak
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French there as well, he said, because Vancouver does not
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look like Paris. That makes a lot of sense. Really,
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I mean, well that does make a lot of sense.
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But also filming it in Europe, filming it in these
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foreign locations, you feel as slightly off balance as Bourne
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does as well. You're a stranger in a strange land
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as well. True, I want to talk about most Valuable Player.
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I think it really has to be Damon because it's
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a reinvention for him in so many ways. You're right
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in what you said about in him being a very
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physical performance. He's like a coiled spring in this isn't
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he I mean, he sort of rebuilt himself as this weapon.
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He carries himself like someone who knows and handled themselves.
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There's a terrific fight scene when he's gone back to
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this apartment in Paris that is supposedly his but he
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knows nothing about. And he's yeah, confronted by this assassin
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and Damon starts revealing these incredible martial arts skills that
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have only been hinted at before then. But he's one
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hundred percent convincing pulling these moves off. It's really great. Staff.
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Yes, it's an advertisement for a muscle memory.
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Well, that's yeah. I think that's something that Damon talked
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about because he was very You interviewed him as well.
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You sent me a terrific picture of you and Damon
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conversing about the film. And I think he came to
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Australia to promote each of the Bourne movies and I
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spoke to him for each of them, and you could
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see each time the evolution of Damon as a as
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an actor and as a person and as someone in
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the showbiz system. He seemed to be getting more and
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more confident every time, and he's always struck me as
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someone who is never sort of shy of confidence. The
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other great thing is that He's always been very good
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at thinking on screen. You always buy Damon as like
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a man of not just action, but a man who
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can think his way or maneuver his way out of
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a situation rather than sort of crashed through. So I
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think this was a really good role for him in
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that regard. There are so many other great actors in
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this as well. I mean, we talked about Brian Cox
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recently when we did our episode on Troy. He's in
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a different mode here, but he's kind of villainous, but
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not as let's say, outlandishly, so he's a little more
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sort of bureaucratically evil. Right, But you've got a tremendous
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villain in Chris Coop, but the always wonderful Chris Cooper,
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who's the head of the Treadstone program. I don't know
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exactly what he's doing here, but he seems to be
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playing a guy who's both cold blooded and extremely angry.
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Not many actors I think could pull that off, but
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Cooper does it so well. I really really like him
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in this. And Clive Owen, who was on the rise here.
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He was not necessarily on a whole lot of people's
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radar yet, but I think this would have helped in
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that because he's got kind of a bit part really,
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or a cameo as this hired killer who sent to
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dispatch Jason Bourne. They have one scene together, Damon and Owen,
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and it's really remarkable work by and he packs a
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whole lifetime of experience and into this one scene. It's
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fantastic work, and I'm pretty sure it helped put him
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on the map and made a lot of people start
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thinking about him for the larger roles. I think he
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was a lot of people's first choice for Bond as
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a result of this.
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Yes, I was one of those people were rooting for
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him to get James One absolutely.
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Speaking of Bond, I talked about how this sort of
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became the blueprint for action movies moving forward in the
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twenty and twenty tens. I honestly don't think you get
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the change from Double O Seven's Dye Another Day to
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Casino Royale without the influence of the Bourne identity. I
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don't think you get Batman Begins without the Bourne identity.
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I don't even think you get the change in the
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Mission Impossible franchise without it. I think they looked at
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what Bourne did, It's like, we need to make these
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a little bit more realistic, a little bit more grounded,
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while keeping that propulsive and exhilarating sense of action. Borne
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Identity does it as well as just about anything.
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But we make a great case for that guy, and
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I take you're right.
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We were talking about MVPs, but let's talk about the
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ones who were on the other side of the camera
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or even in the composing suite because school composer John Powell,
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he's one of my favorite composers. He's done some really
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terrific stuff and his accusing for this is fantastic. Yeah,
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I really like what he does here. Although we've also
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give a shout out to techno artist Moby his song
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Extreme Ways, which is over the end credits of all
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of them, and so it became the anthem of the
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series and is synonymous with the Bourne Identity. So yeah,
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maybe Moby is the MVP of the Bourne Identity double feature.
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This is pretty lean to mean. This is under two hours,
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The Bourne Identity. Now, I recommended that you do not
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watch more than one Born movie in a setting. Watch
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Borne Identity, take a week, then watch Supremacy. See how
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you go. But here's one that I thought might work
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well with this I mentioned John Frankenheimer earlier. He's a
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fantastic and perhaps underrated filmmaker. He's got some terrific films
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on his resume, and in nineteen ninety eight he made
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a spy thriller called Ronan. Yeah, this is a similarly
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lean and mean mashup of American and European sensibilities. It's
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got a lot of cars driving at recklessly dangerous speeds
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throughout European cities. But it might have had a bit
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of influence on how Lyman and co. Went about The
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Bourne Identity. But it's kind of an underrated, underseen film.
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But people who like Ronan are kind of ride or
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die for it, and I am one of them. I
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think it would work really well in conjunction with the
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Bourne Identity.
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I would rather get away from cars running around Europe
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for a second feature. I'd rather do something a little
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out of the box, outside of the box, and they
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don't know what that is.
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How about Before Sunrise with Ethan Hawk and Julie Delpy,
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another European story about two mismatched people making their way
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through a European city.
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That actually is a very good idea, you know, a
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nice idea that's an idea that bears merit because it's
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a complete change of piece. Nothing in common with this
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except the fact that it's the same hemisphere.
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In news that will shock the world, Guy Davis had
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a pretty good idea for a double feature. But that's
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the Bourne identity.
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With the Bourne identity, was this the first film with
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you as a reviewer that you considered Damon to be
386
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a genuine movie star?
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Let me just look at this resume here and give
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me one moment.
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00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:07.799
Because Goodwill Hunting was ninety seven, right Will Hunting ninety seven?
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00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:10.759
But even before then he was on the rise. He's
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in a great movie called Courage under Fire. He's got
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a supporting role in that opposite Denzel Washington and Meg Ryan.
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But everyone came out of Courage under Fire and going,
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who's this kid? He's really good. And he'd been in
395
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movies all throughout the nineties as well, just in in supporting,
396
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:25.759
nothing really starring.
397
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He wasn't the name at the top of the poster yet.
398
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No, no, But just before Goodwill Hunting came out, he's
399
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:32.920
in a movie called The rain Maker. It's like a
400
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.160
John Grisham legal thriller. And that's really the thing that
401
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.640
sort of put him on the map, because those Grisham
402
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:40.240
movies were just making money. Hand over this and I
403
00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:43.079
feel the lead in that that sort of cementsia. But yeah,
404
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:45.920
Goodwill Hunting was. Oh he's a star in this and
405
00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:47.839
he co wrote it, and there's such a great story
406
00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:50.519
about him and affleck as these as these two young
407
00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:52.640
guys on the rise. But yeah, I mean looking at
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00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:55.720
him in this, it really does feel like he's kicking
409
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it up a level.
410
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Well, there was the talented mister Ripley.
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Of course, Oh of course, Oh my gosh, I can't
412
00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:02.839
believe I've got about that.
413
00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:04.880
He earned his stripes by this time.
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00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:09.079
What are your memories Leonard of the Athleck damon winning
415
00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:11.880
the Oscar for Google Hunting ear What was your thoughts
416
00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:14.480
on their story? Can you remember that time?
417
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I remember it well because they were working at that
418
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:23.440
time for Harvey Weinstein and the Mirrimax Company, and Merrimax
419
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:27.240
was the cutting edge. Merrimax was the place you wanted
420
00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:31.039
to be, except if you were actually working for the
421
00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:36.640
boons in charge. But they acquired great films for US distribution.
422
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They produced great films for international distribution, and my wife
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and I got invited to the Mirramax Oscar party pre
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00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:49.440
oscar party, and we saw Matt Damon and Ben Affleck
425
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:53.640
with their mothers who they had brought out from Boston
426
00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:56.640
for the occasion. And I think I even have a
427
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.960
snapshot somewhere then with their moms, and it was nice.
428
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:04.799
It was sweet to see that this is what recognition
429
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:09.119
brought with it, the ability to you know, sank publicly
430
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:14.119
thank ensure the occasion with their mothers. There was some
431
00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:18.200
scuttle but at the time about someone else doing a
432
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:23.880
polished rewrite of that screenplay after they turned it in.
433
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I don't want to rattle skeletons and closets after so
434
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many years, because they've both done such really fine work,
435
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.039
and not In particularly seems to be a good guy,
436
00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:40.400
so I don't want to besmirch his reputation, especially just casually.
437
00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:42.839
I think one of the big names who was supposedly
438
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the rewriter or the ghost writer of Goodwill Hunting has
439
00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:47.680
gone on the records saying, look, I had nothing to
440
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:50.119
do with that. He may have given like a note
441
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about the script, but he had nothing to do with
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rewriting it.
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So what do you say, print the legend?
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I was say print religion, and also I don't doubt
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the sincerity of Matt and Ben wanting to share Hollywood's
446
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Night of Night with their mothers. But it's also just
447
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:07.839
it's a great story as well, isn't. I mean, they
448
00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:10.880
seem very very savvy about how they presented themselves to
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the world, and it's like having these two young guys
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was like, well, you know, we're just a couple of
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lads from Boston who you really love our mu It's like,
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you know what you're doing, guys.
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All righty guys. Hope you enjoyed this review here of
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the Born Identity. Don't forget you can't continue to support
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00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:28.000
the show by a rating and reviewing us on Apple
456
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.440
Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you are finding this show.
457
00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.279
It's poorting us on Patreon for early and ad free access,
458
00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:35.359
as well as access to exclusive reviews. Link for that
459
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:37.839
is in the description of this podcast, and keep sending
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00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:40.680
through your questions to the Movie Guide podcast at gmail
461
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:42.599
dot com. We'd love to hear from each and every
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00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:44.480
single one of you, and we'll answer all your questions
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00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:47.559
on the next Milton Mailback episode. But for now, Guy Davis,
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thanks for joining us. Thank you, Dan thank you the letter.
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Malton always a player and we will catch you all
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in the next episode of the Movie Guide with Malton
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00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:55.079
and Davis
