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Speaker 1: Masterclass. Masterclass time.
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Speaker 2: This is part two on our conversation on thanatology, the study of death, dying, grief, and bereavement. We're joined again by Dion Chang, Transition Guide and End of Life Companion Doula, as well as Rhiannon Thomas, Wills and Estate Planning Lawyer, but has some experience in And don't worry if you missed part one, we will do a recap as we continue. We really, really wanted this part two to give all of you an opportunity to ask questions of our guests, especially if you are dealing with a person or maybe.
00:00:41
Speaker 1: You yourself are at.
00:00:43
Speaker 2: The stage of end of life care.
00:00:45
Speaker 1: Or are in hospice.
00:00:47
Speaker 2: Or have been curious or have had to take care of a loved one towards the end of their life as they transition to the next stage. So obviously in situations like this, we are not referring to things that are sudden, out of nowhere. It is usually something that is anticipated. So I'm going to kick off with Dion, who was with us in part one, to give us a bit of a reminder of what it means to be a death doula, an end of life companion, and what our the one or two scenarios one can get into the space and for everybody to be aware as well, this space is not just for human beings.
00:01:33
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming back.
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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me again and good afternoon to everybody as well. Yeah, so the death doula phenomenon, let's call it that, has been growing and I think specifically, and I think it's a really good thing that a couple of months ago, Nicole Kidman of all people announced that she was going to train as a death doula as well.
00:01:55
Speaker 1: I didn't hear this.
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Speaker 3: Because she, I think she also lost her mom, I think last year. And she just said, you know, she just learned so much from that experience and that we need people then. In fact, just recently in the last two weeks, I've seen a lot of postings on the New Yorker magazine. So it's starting to, there's an awareness that is starting to grow. around, let's call it the death care industry, which is what we call it. And in fact, I had just this week a really, really good friend. Her mom actually just passed on Monday morning. And on Sunday, just kind of sharing information, videos of kind of how to do it. And I guess that's what a death dealer really does is just– so for the listeners who missed part one, A death dealer's role is a non-medical emotional and spiritual support system. So you're not there to give dispensable advice, but you're there to support the family. And it can be everything from literally being at the death bed or admin, as you say, so creating a purple file or an advanced directive, which is really, really important, or just making, you know, if people are holding vigil, as my friend was on the weekend, you know, a death unit can come there and also just make people a cup of tea and give people a break. It's really just that kind of support and you just kind of need to be, as they say, you need to meet people where they are, whether it's post-death and it's grieving, you just meet people where they are if they are about to kind of face mortality and that.
00:03:37
Speaker 2: And also, I guess, at the stage of, especially as you're saying, the end-of-life industry is growing so much, but If a person has received that diagnosis, which is there's nothing more we can do, is we can come into the picture. And I just thought about something which I can't recall if we touched on it last week or not. But the realization, I mean, I look at somebody like my mother who was giving end of life care to so many people that.
00:04:03
Speaker 1: Are informally trained, if I'm going to call it that.
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Speaker 2: Now, in the case of her, she has a nursing background, but all of this was new. But she would understand that, OK, this person's not moving. Let's rub their legs. Let's play music. Let's, you know, all of all of. those kinds of things that people find themselves doing. And to everybody asking if we're going to upload the episodes, yes, part one is already there. Go to PrimediaPlus.com or download the app. We did have a different guest join us then, so you will also get a lot of information. And today was really just to create a bigger space for all of the different kinds of questions that come through. Rhiannon, what has your experience been in the space of end-of-life companionship or being a death doula?
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Speaker 1: Hi, Rhiannon.
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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me on the show. Yes. So I have a... a collaborative law firm and I actually work with a bereavement specialist. She's not a death doula. She hasn't done the death doula training, but she is a bereavement specialist and family counselor. And so if we have a client that comes to us who is close to the end of their life because they're elderly or because they've been diagnosed with some kind of serious illness and they've been given a timeframe. We work together to help them to get their legal documents and also advanced care planning documents in place. I have worked with a death doula before, doing some training and workshops on sort of end-of-life planning. And I must say that all the people I've met in that area are just amazing and bring so much to the space, which can be very overwhelming and frightening for people. And to have this companion person who you can rely on and who's there just to support you, who's not alone. you know, distracted by their own sort of grief around the process or their need to treat you medically. They really are just there for their client. And so I think it's a wonderful thing that's happening here. There's definitely more and more people training in that field. And I think it's really needed.
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Speaker 2: Do you find that in your work of wills and estate planning that you do get involved quite a bit with a dying person where they're trying to get things going and you observe things that maybe are not part of your checklist or even a death doulas checklist that you think people should start to think about?
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Speaker 4: Yes, so I have had various experiences. Obviously, I have my checklist of what I think is important for them to have in place legally. But then I have been asked to be a spokesperson for some people and I've been appointed with their advance directive to be their medical spokesperson. And then I've had to be involved in a more personal capacity. And then I find that most people are very disorganized. So they kind of know that they should have everything sorted out, but they don't have it and they don't know where their documents are or some are here and some are somewhere else and they can't remember where things are. So I do spend time also with people trying to help them. I suppose in a way it's like this purple file that you've mentioned to try and get that in place because it's a gift that you leave to those left behind. When someone dies, you know, there's so much that happens and the grief and the loss of loving, of using a loved one. And then when there's chaos around the sort of administrative aspects, it's really, really difficult for people. And sometimes they just give up and don't pursue things. And I've found that with many, many estates, especially the smaller estates where there's maybe a house and that's about all and a large family, And they sort of give up on the estate process and just hope for the best because they haven't got these things in place. Sure.
00:09:10
Speaker 2: And I think if you have not gone through the process, you would not even begin to imagine the amount of admin that is involved. in wrapping up in a state and all of those things, we need to take a break.
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Speaker 1: When we come back, I'd.
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Speaker 2: Like us to remind everybody about the purple file, but also from your side, Renan, in terms of what really goes into it and why is it so overwhelming? And, and, and what are some of the things that surprise people when they discover, because you would imagine, well, okay, I know all this person's details.
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Speaker 4: Okay.
00:09:43
Speaker 1: They've died. There's the death certificate.
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Speaker 4: Okay.
00:09:45
Speaker 2: Wham, bam, should be done, but it isn't like that in real life. 011-883-702, the WhatsApp line 072-702-1702. 702.
00:09:54
Speaker 4: Masterclass.
00:09:55
Speaker 2: 21 minutes after 2 o'clock, we continue in our masterclass on the study of death, dying, grief.
00:10:00
Speaker 1: And bereavement. This is part 201-883-0702 and the WhatsApp line 072-702-1702.
00:10:08
Speaker 2: We're chatting to Dion Chang, who is a transition guide and end-of-life companion dealer, as well as Renan Thomas-Wills, an estate planning lawyer. Renan, before we went to the ad break, we were speaking about just the overwhelming amount of admin. Can you share with us why it is so much? Why is having a death certificate important? and knowing the basics of, let's say, your mother's life, not sufficient, why does that not make the process go quickly?
00:10:42
Speaker 4: So I think we should just take a step back and maybe come to that, because Dion, I think, could speak to that as well, is the planning that you need to do for before you die, because there are a few things about documents that apply– sort of in those last days or weeks. And getting those in place is really important. But then when a person dies, the law requires that if they had any assets, so over a thousand rand, which most people will have these days, be it just a bank account or more things, that that estate must be reported to the master of the high court. And it's the reporting process that is so administratively overwhelming because the information that is asked for is quite detailed. So there will obviously be information about a person on the death certificate. But they also, because there's been a lot of fraud around people claiming death benefits and things like that, they're quite pedantic about making sure that they have all the paperwork in place. And so, you know, if somebody's lost their ID and they die and they don't have an ID, that is a huge problem because then you have to go to the police station and open a case and then try and get home affairs to issue an ID for a dead person. It's really, really tricky. So an ID is essential. A marriage certificate is essential. Whatever type of marriage that is, you need some proof of it. And I've seen quite a lot of estates where there have been customary law marriages, but the headman or chief who officiated the marriage didn't actually give a certificate. And so the master's office has seen them as unmarried and we've had to do affidavits and get people to come and attest that there was a marriage. And they've got strict requirements about what you need to show to prove the marriage. And then divorce documents. People often use their divorce order and forget where they got divorced. I think maybe it's the trauma of divorce that makes them kind of forget that part. So if there's been a divorce, you need to know that. If there's an anti-nuptial contract, you need a copy of that. And that's just the personal information about the person who has died. Then you need all the information about what's in their estate. And I have had estates where I've just been handed a sort of box of papers and said, told, this is what we found in the house. We don't know, you know, what's there, have a look and see what you can find. And it can make it very difficult. And there are millions, billions probably of unplanned benefits sitting in this country because people didn't have the right paperwork available. And then after they died, their pension couldn't be claimed or an investment isn't cashed in or shares. So yeah, it's really, really important. And I think the thing that I really want to say to people is, you know, often this people feel that planning for their death in some way might bring death closer or might be bad luck. And there's a saying that says, talking about sex doesn't get you pregnant and talking about death doesn't get you killed.
00:14:30
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, that is the funniest thing I've heard today. Okay, talking about sex doesn't get you pregnant, talking about death doesn't get you killed.
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Speaker 4: Exactly. Okay. And I think important for people to remember so it's not it's yeah let's talk about let's talk about sex and let's talk about death.
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Speaker 2: That is such a good saying Dion as Renan rightfully said that you would obviously know more about the things we should be doing while we're in love because all of us that are listening to this conversation should be having our things in one place because we don't know.
00:15:12
Speaker 3: What's going to happen And I think specifically, I mean, we're talking about a purple file. So let me just, for the listeners, just distinguish between the two. So the two main documents, a purple file is really all the kind of technical stuff that she was talking about is, you know, the deeds, the marriage certificate, the birth certificate, the insurance policies and policy numbers, all of those kind of things, the kind of the technical aspects of your life.
00:15:39
Speaker 1: The advance directive is, is, uh, equally.
00:15:42
Speaker 3: Really important one and um you know i just had a i was meant to be on a call this morning and um the intermediaries phoned and said look they've had to cancel the the call because the woman had to rush her husband to hospital so i don't know what's happened there but something could happen anytime any day and the advanced directive.
00:16:01
Speaker 1: Is a whole list of um really sort.
00:16:05
Speaker 3: Of quite intricate questions that say if you are in a position where you are alive but not communicative So you might be lying in a hospital, you might have had a car crash, but you are not able to communicate these are the wishes that I would like to have or have not for the medical team to pursue. There's a legal battle at the moment because it is not technically a legal document, but there's already movements to push that through as a legal one. But just quickly, I wanted to also say, you know, what a death doula does is also, so there's a whole lot of admin side of things, but I want to just bring in the kind of the heart and the human side of things as well. So, for example, if somebody has been given a terminal diagnosis and they know that it is going to be a terminal diagnosis, but say it's a young mom and she has got two kids and then she's not going to see them grow up, what do you do there? So you help people create what they call a legacy project. And what do you leave behind, you know, whether it's a recipe book or it's like things I'm not going to see you grow up. So I wish this for you and messages for them to open up on their 21st birthday.
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Speaker 2: I'm getting so many goosebumps because I'm even thinking about those people who think about when they die, they will pay for in advance delivery of flowers every year on their wife's birthday or make sure they put aside something for their daughter's wedding because they know that they'll never.
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Speaker 1: Exactly. So it's a very.
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Speaker 3: Broad and encompassing things from the very mundane and the very technical to things that give you goosebumps.
00:17:47
Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness. I see you, Mark, and I see you, Sipo. I see your questions on the WhatsApp line. When we come back, we're going to go straight to them. Thank you so much for being patient. It's 2.30. All right, part two of our Masterclass, Thanatology, which is the study of death dying grief and bereavement and we're with Dion Chang and Renan Thomas uh where I love that today's guests we have the balance of the legal side because there are many things that people like Renan see and then of course Dion as somebody who is an end-of-life companion doula 011-883-0702 the whatsapp line 070-702-1702 we go to Mark in Johannesburg hi Mark.
00:18:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, hi.
00:18:36
Speaker 1: Hey, go ahead.
00:18:39
Speaker 5: Well, my question is I have stage four cancer, 12, 24, 36, don't know how many months left. I'm considering dispersing of every asset I have to family prior to my death, like completely off native, sell all the cars.
00:18:59
Speaker 4: Yes.
00:18:59
Speaker 5: Sell my half of the house or donate my half of the house to my wife. How does one get rid of all the assets so there is nothing to disperse at the end of the process?
00:19:09
Speaker 2: That's such a great question, Mark. I'm so, so sorry for your diagnosis. How are you feeling before I give Renan an opportunity to share her views from the legal perspective?
00:19:20
Speaker 5: Absolutely fine. I'm doing what is called radical acceptance.
00:19:24
Speaker 2: Oh, my favorite two words.
00:19:27
Speaker 1: Radical acceptance. And do you have children?
00:19:29
Speaker 5: Yeah, three of them. But they're not children. It's 24, 22, 20. But they're still children.
00:19:36
Speaker 2: Well, they are forever babies. Let me call it that. Renan, from a legal perspective, what would you advise Mark, who is aware that the clock is ticking in terms of wanting to rid of assets? Would you advise that it's done prior?
00:19:52
Speaker 4: Hi, Mark. Thanks for your question. It depends, which is a very loyally answer. But I suppose one would have to work out what the costs are of disposing of assets before you die versus how much it will cost to wind up the estate. So everybody has a three and a half million Rand rebate before you pay estate duty. And if everything you leave to your spouse is free from estate duty. When it comes to property, It's advisable not to dispose of property before you die if you have the option of putting it into your estate, for example, transferring the half share to your spouse, because if it's a deceased estate transfer, then it's exempt from transfer duty. But if you, while you're alive, transfer a portion of property to someone, you would have to pay transfer duty, which can be quite a large sum of money. As far as giving away things, you know, selling cars, you could certainly do that. Giving people money, one really does have to just be careful of donations and SARS, because SARS are there wanting to get their tax whichever way they get it, whether when you're alive or when you're dead. And on a donation, there is 20% donations tax. So we allow to donate, I think it's gone up now to, is it 250 or 200,000 a year, free from donations tax. But as soon as you go over that, you start to make yourself liable for donations tax. And just in your case, if you wanted to give stuff to your wife, there's no donations tax between spouses. So you could certainly transfer money into her name and there wouldn't be any tax implications.
00:22:07
Speaker 1: Mark, does that just.
00:22:09
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, it also depends on if you're married, if you're married in property or out of community of property.
00:22:17
Speaker 1: Mark, did you get all of that?
00:22:19
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I did. I need to make a spreadsheet. On the left cost, on the right cost, depending on the life of the dead. and figure out what's the best cost benefit ratio for.
00:22:30
Speaker 2: Each asset class. Mark, what have you decided to do in terms of closer to the time? Have you prepared who the person is, nominated the person that will speak on your behalf when you can no longer speak? Have you gone through that process and thought about that already?
00:22:51
Speaker 5: No, not at the moment. I've got Nine weeks of chemo left, and then I think I have a six-month break, so I'm shelving any emotional decision until after chemo because it's a bit of a cuck process.
00:23:06
Speaker 4: Yes, yes.
00:23:08
Speaker 2: Dion, what would you advise Mark maybe consider in this process? Because, of course, the chemo stage, Mark, is its own hell.
00:23:17
Speaker 1: That you're going to be going through.
00:23:19
Speaker 2: But, of course, what the doctors have said will be somewhere top of mind.
00:23:24
Speaker 1: But what do you advise, Dion?
00:23:26
Speaker 3: Hi, Mark. Again, also, I'm sorry to hear about your diagnosis. You know, the double-edged sword is that you have some time to be able to plan your affairs the way you want to do. My personal doula mantra is to leave nothing left unsaid. And so I think even though you want to leave, and I understand that to kind of park the emotional stuff for later, is also just start thinking about it now is, you know, what would those messages be to people? And I know this sounds macabre, but it is one of the options that people have, that they have almost like a living funeral.
00:24:10
Speaker 4: Yes.
00:24:11
Speaker 3: So you have people … that you know and love around you and they say what they want to say so that they don't have to do it while you're not there. So that's just my advice is leave nothing left unsaid on both sides.
00:24:28
Speaker 2: Mark, does that resonate with you at all, the idea of.
00:24:30
Speaker 5: … I wouldn't have a living funeral because the dead one, it's not me for them.
00:24:35
Speaker 4: Yes, yes.
00:24:37
Speaker 1: Why not just make it a party?
00:24:39
Speaker 2: I've seen people do that where they know and they make a little farewell party while you are in your most comfortable or physical spaces, have your funnest music and the things you can eat. And I know that it might sound to some listening like we're making light of what can be very dark, but this is the reality you are facing at the moment.
00:25:02
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:25:03
Speaker 5: The problem is like, when do you do it? Like now it's fitting well. And in three years, I'm not going to be like, do I want to have a party now or do I want to have it in three years that I'm not well?
00:25:12
Speaker 1: That's a tricky one, eh?
00:25:14
Speaker 3: My personal advice is we have it. Do it while you can do all of the things that you want to do.
00:25:19
Speaker 4: Yes.
00:25:20
Speaker 5: Do it while you can still do the Macarena.
00:25:22
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:25:23
Speaker 3: And, you know, do all the things that you can hold on to as a cherished memory while you can do it.
00:25:31
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:25:32
Speaker 1: Mark, all of the best. Please do stay in touch with us.
00:25:35
Speaker 2: I think, I feel like now we're all part of the stage in your life. I'm going to pass you back to our producer so we can take your details.
00:25:43
Speaker 1: Sipo in Bragpan. Go ahead, Sipo.
00:25:47
Speaker 6: Yes.
00:25:47
Speaker 1: How are you? I'm okay.
00:25:53
Speaker 6: And you?
00:25:54
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:26:00
Speaker 6: You know, everything has been commercialized. Even death has been commercialized. And it's frightening. Let me give you an example. If the doctor knows that the my next of kin is going to live for the coming, let's say, three months. The moment they tell me that this person has got only three months left, how am I going to handle that? Because it's.
00:26:40
Speaker 1: Torture. So would you prefer.
00:26:42
Speaker 6: It isn't better. It isn't better... for the doctors to know and then not to tell the family. Because I mean, in our culture, once the problem is, the family will start coming to that particular family for support. And then if I'm going to tell my family that so-and-so has got only three months left, Are you telling me in the third month, they must come to their house every day to check if this person is still alive or not?
00:27:25
Speaker 1: No, Sipo. Sipo, sorry to laugh. I understand your question, but let me say this.
00:27:30
Speaker 2: Now because I understand what you're saying.
00:27:33
Speaker 6: Isn't it better for the doctors just to.
00:27:36
Speaker 2: Keep So let me put it to you like this. Remember, doctors are trained in how they deliver those messages and who they deliver it to. So let's say you've got a cancer diagnosis and now they're updating because you're talking about your treatment. And then they say, it's not looking good. There's not much more we can do. You will naturally ask, but it will be your choice if you decide, let me go tell the whole family. I wouldn't imagine you're going to go to your whole village today. to say I've got three months. I think you would need to take it on yourself to say, who do we want to tell? Because I understand what you're saying. Once the news are delivered in our culture, you know, people must come with cakes.
00:28:20
Speaker 6: Oh, Sipo.
00:28:24
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Sipo. I get you completely. I'm not sure I'm from your side, Dion, what your thoughts are on this, because I get what Sipo is saying. And unfortunately with death, whether you were prepared or not, it sucks either way.
00:28:39
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:28:40
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it's my, my personal view is would I agree with you? I mean, the, the privacy issue is, is yours to, to handle and then yours to manage as well of that person. But I also think that I think the doctors also have a, a duty to, to, to tell you the reality of the situation. And I think, And again, that's my personal view is that having, you know, I'd rather know and have the knowledge of what time I have left or how best to use that time. Even though if I don't tell anybody.
00:29:17
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:29:17
Speaker 3: You know, you can suddenly say, you know. why are you suddenly becoming so generous?
00:29:23
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:29:24
Speaker 2: Also, imagine you would have kept going to work and then you're like, ah, if the doctor told me I have three months, I would have quit my job to go and spend time with my family. But I hear you completely. I'm going to quickly go to Fatima from Tunisia.
00:29:38
Speaker 1: Go ahead, Fatima.
00:29:40
Speaker 7: Good afternoon, Rilebohele and the guests. I just wanted to know, sorry, I missed that first part. My sister-in-law is leaving her property to my husband. I'd just like to know, would it be better to transfer it in her lifetime? or do we wait for her to pass away and then transfer it? Because I think I understood that transfer fees after death are null and void. You don't need to pay transfer fees, or was that wrong?
00:30:13
Speaker 1: Renan?
00:30:16
Speaker 4: So it's transfer duty, which is the tax that gets paid to SARS on the transfer of any property. Transfer fees are a different thing. Those are conveyancing costs that you pay a conveyancer to make the transfer happen. So if your sister-in-law were to transfer the property to your husband now, she would have to pay transfer duty and transfer fees. However, if it were from her estate, the beneficiary, there's no transfer duty. So it's free. It's exempt from transfer duty. And you only pay transfer fees. So it always makes sense to transfer a property from an estate rather than before. In most cases. Yeah.
00:31:12
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Fatima. We need to take another break. Caroline, I see all your questions on the WhatsApp line.
00:31:16
Speaker 1: 702 Masterclass.
00:31:19
Speaker 2: Eight minutes to three o'clock as we wrap up this Masterclass. So double one, double eight, three or seven or two. the WhatsApp line 0727021702. Caroline in Soweto, go ahead.
00:31:30
Speaker 8: Hi, Lebo Hila and your guests. I'd really love to commend you for this very important conversation because I've went through it and I was fortunate enough to have parents who had, like, they are well done and I've always had a sickly mom and my dad has always been the strong one, but Sadly, my dad pre-deceased my mom. And my mom had always been very clear about who must take decisions, when she can.
00:32:03
Speaker 4: Speak, when.
00:32:05
Speaker 8: So I've went through it twice. So I'd really like to commend you and to the listeners that we should make it a norm to talk about those things before it comes to the point where There's nothing that we can do.
00:32:21
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:32:22
Speaker 8: I've had a mom who passed on years and she was on life support, but she did make it very clear to us that should the quality of life not improve, should this and this happen, should I not be able to speak, please just do as if she knew that it was going to happen. So thank you, Relevuhile, for your very amazing topics and to your guests. Thank you. Thank you.
00:32:52
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for your loss.
00:32:54
Speaker 2: I can hear that the pain is still very much there. And thank you for sharing, especially because culturally, you know, it's uncommon to be having these kinds of conversations, but you are a testimony to how it can be beneficial and make it easier for people. those that are left behind. Thank you so much, Caroline. So some of your questions on the WhatsApp line. There's one that says, how do you become a death doula?
00:33:21
Speaker 3: Okay, so when I trained, because I was suddenly getting these messages, all these articles that started coming around there, and I just thought, I don't know what's happening.
00:33:32
Speaker 6: Yes.
00:33:33
Speaker 3: And I had never heard of a death doula. six months before I trained of that. And when I did train, they said, you know, you didn't just wake up one morning and say, well, I think it's a good idea to assist people to pass.
00:33:45
Speaker 1: You were called.
00:33:46
Speaker 3: So very much like the Sangoma, you get called and this is your calling. And they also said you can specialize. So that was the double what? What do you mean specialize? And they said, no, no, just think you've done this before. So right at the beginning of the session, you said it's not just people. So my area of specialization is actually helping people with pet bereavement. So because if you've got your fur baby and if you are that pet parent, then it's a very unrecognized form of grief, and that's what I've decided to validate and bring forward. So to the question is there are training courses all around. There's different certifications. You can either just do it that you just want the skills or there are registered doula organizations around the world. You can register internationally. So it depends on your certification if you are applicable or to an international organization.
00:34:45
Speaker 2: The other specialties, I saw the musician and that's what he does.
00:34:48
Speaker 1: He goes to hospice. He goes to homes.
00:34:50
Speaker 2: There are so many different people from a legal side. What are the documents that all of us should go home today and make sure we compile and put in one place?
00:35:05
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm so glad you asked that question because I've been itching to say that there is a thing called the advanced directive is basically just there's a document that we can do here in South Africa to appoint someone as our spokesperson to give consent or refusal to treatment. And all that's required is that you have to write it down and say, I, Rhiannon, nominate and to be my spokesperson for healthcare decisions and sign it and date it. And then it means that any decisions around health, you are the person that they have to come to and you have to make the decision on my behalf. This is if I'm unconscious or I'm on a machine and unable to speak for myself. And then to have the important conversations like the young lady who phoned in with her mother about being on a life support machine and what you would want. Would you want to be kept alive or would you rather quality of life and say, stop treating me? And then to get your last will and testament in place and to really... you know, think about what the impact of that will be and to keep the original because at the master's office, they want the original document, not a copy. So many people don't know that. And then, you know, obviously to make a folder with all the other important information. And there's a lot of information on the internet around what, you know, how to make those folders.
00:36:59
Speaker 2: And even Nikki Bush, one of our show contributors has on her site, a what if file, you can search on the internet as well. Final wishes, files of things that you can put, including your social media details, all of those, things in one place to make it easier I'm so sad that we have to end the conversation as we've run out of time thank you for tuning in
Speaker 1: Masterclass. Masterclass time.
00:00:04
Speaker 2: This is part two on our conversation on thanatology, the study of death, dying, grief, and bereavement. We're joined again by Dion Chang, Transition Guide and End of Life Companion Doula, as well as Rhiannon Thomas, Wills and Estate Planning Lawyer, but has some experience in And don't worry if you missed part one, we will do a recap as we continue. We really, really wanted this part two to give all of you an opportunity to ask questions of our guests, especially if you are dealing with a person or maybe.
00:00:41
Speaker 1: You yourself are at.
00:00:43
Speaker 2: The stage of end of life care.
00:00:45
Speaker 1: Or are in hospice.
00:00:47
Speaker 2: Or have been curious or have had to take care of a loved one towards the end of their life as they transition to the next stage. So obviously in situations like this, we are not referring to things that are sudden, out of nowhere. It is usually something that is anticipated. So I'm going to kick off with Dion, who was with us in part one, to give us a bit of a reminder of what it means to be a death doula, an end of life companion, and what our the one or two scenarios one can get into the space and for everybody to be aware as well, this space is not just for human beings.
00:01:33
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming back.
00:01:34
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me again and good afternoon to everybody as well. Yeah, so the death doula phenomenon, let's call it that, has been growing and I think specifically, and I think it's a really good thing that a couple of months ago, Nicole Kidman of all people announced that she was going to train as a death doula as well.
00:01:55
Speaker 1: I didn't hear this.
00:01:56
Speaker 3: Because she, I think she also lost her mom, I think last year. And she just said, you know, she just learned so much from that experience and that we need people then. In fact, just recently in the last two weeks, I've seen a lot of postings on the New Yorker magazine. So it's starting to, there's an awareness that is starting to grow. around, let's call it the death care industry, which is what we call it. And in fact, I had just this week a really, really good friend. Her mom actually just passed on Monday morning. And on Sunday, just kind of sharing information, videos of kind of how to do it. And I guess that's what a death dealer really does is just– so for the listeners who missed part one, A death dealer's role is a non-medical emotional and spiritual support system. So you're not there to give dispensable advice, but you're there to support the family. And it can be everything from literally being at the death bed or admin, as you say, so creating a purple file or an advanced directive, which is really, really important, or just making, you know, if people are holding vigil, as my friend was on the weekend, you know, a death unit can come there and also just make people a cup of tea and give people a break. It's really just that kind of support and you just kind of need to be, as they say, you need to meet people where they are, whether it's post-death and it's grieving, you just meet people where they are if they are about to kind of face mortality and that.
00:03:37
Speaker 2: And also, I guess, at the stage of, especially as you're saying, the end-of-life industry is growing so much, but If a person has received that diagnosis, which is there's nothing more we can do, is we can come into the picture. And I just thought about something which I can't recall if we touched on it last week or not. But the realization, I mean, I look at somebody like my mother who was giving end of life care to so many people that.
00:04:03
Speaker 1: Are informally trained, if I'm going to call it that.
00:04:06
Speaker 2: Now, in the case of her, she has a nursing background, but all of this was new. But she would understand that, OK, this person's not moving. Let's rub their legs. Let's play music. Let's, you know, all of all of. those kinds of things that people find themselves doing. And to everybody asking if we're going to upload the episodes, yes, part one is already there. Go to PrimediaPlus.com or download the app. We did have a different guest join us then, so you will also get a lot of information. And today was really just to create a bigger space for all of the different kinds of questions that come through. Rhiannon, what has your experience been in the space of end-of-life companionship or being a death doula?
00:04:56
Speaker 1: Hi, Rhiannon.
00:04:57
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me on the show. Yes. So I have a... a collaborative law firm and I actually work with a bereavement specialist. She's not a death doula. She hasn't done the death doula training, but she is a bereavement specialist and family counselor. And so if we have a client that comes to us who is close to the end of their life because they're elderly or because they've been diagnosed with some kind of serious illness and they've been given a timeframe. We work together to help them to get their legal documents and also advanced care planning documents in place. I have worked with a death doula before, doing some training and workshops on sort of end-of-life planning. And I must say that all the people I've met in that area are just amazing and bring so much to the space, which can be very overwhelming and frightening for people. And to have this companion person who you can rely on and who's there just to support you, who's not alone. you know, distracted by their own sort of grief around the process or their need to treat you medically. They really are just there for their client. And so I think it's a wonderful thing that's happening here. There's definitely more and more people training in that field. And I think it's really needed.
00:06:47
Speaker 2: Do you find that in your work of wills and estate planning that you do get involved quite a bit with a dying person where they're trying to get things going and you observe things that maybe are not part of your checklist or even a death doulas checklist that you think people should start to think about?
00:07:13
Speaker 4: Yes, so I have had various experiences. Obviously, I have my checklist of what I think is important for them to have in place legally. But then I have been asked to be a spokesperson for some people and I've been appointed with their advance directive to be their medical spokesperson. And then I've had to be involved in a more personal capacity. And then I find that most people are very disorganized. So they kind of know that they should have everything sorted out, but they don't have it and they don't know where their documents are or some are here and some are somewhere else and they can't remember where things are. So I do spend time also with people trying to help them. I suppose in a way it's like this purple file that you've mentioned to try and get that in place because it's a gift that you leave to those left behind. When someone dies, you know, there's so much that happens and the grief and the loss of loving, of using a loved one. And then when there's chaos around the sort of administrative aspects, it's really, really difficult for people. And sometimes they just give up and don't pursue things. And I've found that with many, many estates, especially the smaller estates where there's maybe a house and that's about all and a large family, And they sort of give up on the estate process and just hope for the best because they haven't got these things in place. Sure.
00:09:10
Speaker 2: And I think if you have not gone through the process, you would not even begin to imagine the amount of admin that is involved. in wrapping up in a state and all of those things, we need to take a break.
00:09:23
Speaker 1: When we come back, I'd.
00:09:24
Speaker 2: Like us to remind everybody about the purple file, but also from your side, Renan, in terms of what really goes into it and why is it so overwhelming? And, and, and what are some of the things that surprise people when they discover, because you would imagine, well, okay, I know all this person's details.
00:09:43
Speaker 4: Okay.
00:09:43
Speaker 1: They've died. There's the death certificate.
00:09:45
Speaker 4: Okay.
00:09:45
Speaker 2: Wham, bam, should be done, but it isn't like that in real life. 011-883-702, the WhatsApp line 072-702-1702. 702.
00:09:54
Speaker 4: Masterclass.
00:09:55
Speaker 2: 21 minutes after 2 o'clock, we continue in our masterclass on the study of death, dying, grief.
00:10:00
Speaker 1: And bereavement. This is part 201-883-0702 and the WhatsApp line 072-702-1702.
00:10:08
Speaker 2: We're chatting to Dion Chang, who is a transition guide and end-of-life companion dealer, as well as Renan Thomas-Wills, an estate planning lawyer. Renan, before we went to the ad break, we were speaking about just the overwhelming amount of admin. Can you share with us why it is so much? Why is having a death certificate important? and knowing the basics of, let's say, your mother's life, not sufficient, why does that not make the process go quickly?
00:10:42
Speaker 4: So I think we should just take a step back and maybe come to that, because Dion, I think, could speak to that as well, is the planning that you need to do for before you die, because there are a few things about documents that apply– sort of in those last days or weeks. And getting those in place is really important. But then when a person dies, the law requires that if they had any assets, so over a thousand rand, which most people will have these days, be it just a bank account or more things, that that estate must be reported to the master of the high court. And it's the reporting process that is so administratively overwhelming because the information that is asked for is quite detailed. So there will obviously be information about a person on the death certificate. But they also, because there's been a lot of fraud around people claiming death benefits and things like that, they're quite pedantic about making sure that they have all the paperwork in place. And so, you know, if somebody's lost their ID and they die and they don't have an ID, that is a huge problem because then you have to go to the police station and open a case and then try and get home affairs to issue an ID for a dead person. It's really, really tricky. So an ID is essential. A marriage certificate is essential. Whatever type of marriage that is, you need some proof of it. And I've seen quite a lot of estates where there have been customary law marriages, but the headman or chief who officiated the marriage didn't actually give a certificate. And so the master's office has seen them as unmarried and we've had to do affidavits and get people to come and attest that there was a marriage. And they've got strict requirements about what you need to show to prove the marriage. And then divorce documents. People often use their divorce order and forget where they got divorced. I think maybe it's the trauma of divorce that makes them kind of forget that part. So if there's been a divorce, you need to know that. If there's an anti-nuptial contract, you need a copy of that. And that's just the personal information about the person who has died. Then you need all the information about what's in their estate. And I have had estates where I've just been handed a sort of box of papers and said, told, this is what we found in the house. We don't know, you know, what's there, have a look and see what you can find. And it can make it very difficult. And there are millions, billions probably of unplanned benefits sitting in this country because people didn't have the right paperwork available. And then after they died, their pension couldn't be claimed or an investment isn't cashed in or shares. So yeah, it's really, really important. And I think the thing that I really want to say to people is, you know, often this people feel that planning for their death in some way might bring death closer or might be bad luck. And there's a saying that says, talking about sex doesn't get you pregnant and talking about death doesn't get you killed.
00:14:30
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, that is the funniest thing I've heard today. Okay, talking about sex doesn't get you pregnant, talking about death doesn't get you killed.
00:14:44
Speaker 4: Exactly. Okay. And I think important for people to remember so it's not it's yeah let's talk about let's talk about sex and let's talk about death.
00:14:56
Speaker 2: That is such a good saying Dion as Renan rightfully said that you would obviously know more about the things we should be doing while we're in love because all of us that are listening to this conversation should be having our things in one place because we don't know.
00:15:12
Speaker 3: What's going to happen And I think specifically, I mean, we're talking about a purple file. So let me just, for the listeners, just distinguish between the two. So the two main documents, a purple file is really all the kind of technical stuff that she was talking about is, you know, the deeds, the marriage certificate, the birth certificate, the insurance policies and policy numbers, all of those kind of things, the kind of the technical aspects of your life.
00:15:39
Speaker 1: The advance directive is, is, uh, equally.
00:15:42
Speaker 3: Really important one and um you know i just had a i was meant to be on a call this morning and um the intermediaries phoned and said look they've had to cancel the the call because the woman had to rush her husband to hospital so i don't know what's happened there but something could happen anytime any day and the advanced directive.
00:16:01
Speaker 1: Is a whole list of um really sort.
00:16:05
Speaker 3: Of quite intricate questions that say if you are in a position where you are alive but not communicative So you might be lying in a hospital, you might have had a car crash, but you are not able to communicate these are the wishes that I would like to have or have not for the medical team to pursue. There's a legal battle at the moment because it is not technically a legal document, but there's already movements to push that through as a legal one. But just quickly, I wanted to also say, you know, what a death doula does is also, so there's a whole lot of admin side of things, but I want to just bring in the kind of the heart and the human side of things as well. So, for example, if somebody has been given a terminal diagnosis and they know that it is going to be a terminal diagnosis, but say it's a young mom and she has got two kids and then she's not going to see them grow up, what do you do there? So you help people create what they call a legacy project. And what do you leave behind, you know, whether it's a recipe book or it's like things I'm not going to see you grow up. So I wish this for you and messages for them to open up on their 21st birthday.
00:17:17
Speaker 2: I'm getting so many goosebumps because I'm even thinking about those people who think about when they die, they will pay for in advance delivery of flowers every year on their wife's birthday or make sure they put aside something for their daughter's wedding because they know that they'll never.
00:17:36
Speaker 1: Exactly. So it's a very.
00:17:39
Speaker 3: Broad and encompassing things from the very mundane and the very technical to things that give you goosebumps.
00:17:47
Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness. I see you, Mark, and I see you, Sipo. I see your questions on the WhatsApp line. When we come back, we're going to go straight to them. Thank you so much for being patient. It's 2.30. All right, part two of our Masterclass, Thanatology, which is the study of death dying grief and bereavement and we're with Dion Chang and Renan Thomas uh where I love that today's guests we have the balance of the legal side because there are many things that people like Renan see and then of course Dion as somebody who is an end-of-life companion doula 011-883-0702 the whatsapp line 070-702-1702 we go to Mark in Johannesburg hi Mark.
00:18:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, hi.
00:18:36
Speaker 1: Hey, go ahead.
00:18:39
Speaker 5: Well, my question is I have stage four cancer, 12, 24, 36, don't know how many months left. I'm considering dispersing of every asset I have to family prior to my death, like completely off native, sell all the cars.
00:18:59
Speaker 4: Yes.
00:18:59
Speaker 5: Sell my half of the house or donate my half of the house to my wife. How does one get rid of all the assets so there is nothing to disperse at the end of the process?
00:19:09
Speaker 2: That's such a great question, Mark. I'm so, so sorry for your diagnosis. How are you feeling before I give Renan an opportunity to share her views from the legal perspective?
00:19:20
Speaker 5: Absolutely fine. I'm doing what is called radical acceptance.
00:19:24
Speaker 2: Oh, my favorite two words.
00:19:27
Speaker 1: Radical acceptance. And do you have children?
00:19:29
Speaker 5: Yeah, three of them. But they're not children. It's 24, 22, 20. But they're still children.
00:19:36
Speaker 2: Well, they are forever babies. Let me call it that. Renan, from a legal perspective, what would you advise Mark, who is aware that the clock is ticking in terms of wanting to rid of assets? Would you advise that it's done prior?
00:19:52
Speaker 4: Hi, Mark. Thanks for your question. It depends, which is a very loyally answer. But I suppose one would have to work out what the costs are of disposing of assets before you die versus how much it will cost to wind up the estate. So everybody has a three and a half million Rand rebate before you pay estate duty. And if everything you leave to your spouse is free from estate duty. When it comes to property, It's advisable not to dispose of property before you die if you have the option of putting it into your estate, for example, transferring the half share to your spouse, because if it's a deceased estate transfer, then it's exempt from transfer duty. But if you, while you're alive, transfer a portion of property to someone, you would have to pay transfer duty, which can be quite a large sum of money. As far as giving away things, you know, selling cars, you could certainly do that. Giving people money, one really does have to just be careful of donations and SARS, because SARS are there wanting to get their tax whichever way they get it, whether when you're alive or when you're dead. And on a donation, there is 20% donations tax. So we allow to donate, I think it's gone up now to, is it 250 or 200,000 a year, free from donations tax. But as soon as you go over that, you start to make yourself liable for donations tax. And just in your case, if you wanted to give stuff to your wife, there's no donations tax between spouses. So you could certainly transfer money into her name and there wouldn't be any tax implications.
00:22:07
Speaker 1: Mark, does that just.
00:22:09
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, it also depends on if you're married, if you're married in property or out of community of property.
00:22:17
Speaker 1: Mark, did you get all of that?
00:22:19
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I did. I need to make a spreadsheet. On the left cost, on the right cost, depending on the life of the dead. and figure out what's the best cost benefit ratio for.
00:22:30
Speaker 2: Each asset class. Mark, what have you decided to do in terms of closer to the time? Have you prepared who the person is, nominated the person that will speak on your behalf when you can no longer speak? Have you gone through that process and thought about that already?
00:22:51
Speaker 5: No, not at the moment. I've got Nine weeks of chemo left, and then I think I have a six-month break, so I'm shelving any emotional decision until after chemo because it's a bit of a cuck process.
00:23:06
Speaker 4: Yes, yes.
00:23:08
Speaker 2: Dion, what would you advise Mark maybe consider in this process? Because, of course, the chemo stage, Mark, is its own hell.
00:23:17
Speaker 1: That you're going to be going through.
00:23:19
Speaker 2: But, of course, what the doctors have said will be somewhere top of mind.
00:23:24
Speaker 1: But what do you advise, Dion?
00:23:26
Speaker 3: Hi, Mark. Again, also, I'm sorry to hear about your diagnosis. You know, the double-edged sword is that you have some time to be able to plan your affairs the way you want to do. My personal doula mantra is to leave nothing left unsaid. And so I think even though you want to leave, and I understand that to kind of park the emotional stuff for later, is also just start thinking about it now is, you know, what would those messages be to people? And I know this sounds macabre, but it is one of the options that people have, that they have almost like a living funeral.
00:24:10
Speaker 4: Yes.
00:24:11
Speaker 3: So you have people … that you know and love around you and they say what they want to say so that they don't have to do it while you're not there. So that's just my advice is leave nothing left unsaid on both sides.
00:24:28
Speaker 2: Mark, does that resonate with you at all, the idea of.
00:24:30
Speaker 5: … I wouldn't have a living funeral because the dead one, it's not me for them.
00:24:35
Speaker 4: Yes, yes.
00:24:37
Speaker 1: Why not just make it a party?
00:24:39
Speaker 2: I've seen people do that where they know and they make a little farewell party while you are in your most comfortable or physical spaces, have your funnest music and the things you can eat. And I know that it might sound to some listening like we're making light of what can be very dark, but this is the reality you are facing at the moment.
00:25:02
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:25:03
Speaker 5: The problem is like, when do you do it? Like now it's fitting well. And in three years, I'm not going to be like, do I want to have a party now or do I want to have it in three years that I'm not well?
00:25:12
Speaker 1: That's a tricky one, eh?
00:25:14
Speaker 3: My personal advice is we have it. Do it while you can do all of the things that you want to do.
00:25:19
Speaker 4: Yes.
00:25:20
Speaker 5: Do it while you can still do the Macarena.
00:25:22
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:25:23
Speaker 3: And, you know, do all the things that you can hold on to as a cherished memory while you can do it.
00:25:31
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:25:32
Speaker 1: Mark, all of the best. Please do stay in touch with us.
00:25:35
Speaker 2: I think, I feel like now we're all part of the stage in your life. I'm going to pass you back to our producer so we can take your details.
00:25:43
Speaker 1: Sipo in Bragpan. Go ahead, Sipo.
00:25:47
Speaker 6: Yes.
00:25:47
Speaker 1: How are you? I'm okay.
00:25:53
Speaker 6: And you?
00:25:54
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:26:00
Speaker 6: You know, everything has been commercialized. Even death has been commercialized. And it's frightening. Let me give you an example. If the doctor knows that the my next of kin is going to live for the coming, let's say, three months. The moment they tell me that this person has got only three months left, how am I going to handle that? Because it's.
00:26:40
Speaker 1: Torture. So would you prefer.
00:26:42
Speaker 6: It isn't better. It isn't better... for the doctors to know and then not to tell the family. Because I mean, in our culture, once the problem is, the family will start coming to that particular family for support. And then if I'm going to tell my family that so-and-so has got only three months left, Are you telling me in the third month, they must come to their house every day to check if this person is still alive or not?
00:27:25
Speaker 1: No, Sipo. Sipo, sorry to laugh. I understand your question, but let me say this.
00:27:30
Speaker 2: Now because I understand what you're saying.
00:27:33
Speaker 6: Isn't it better for the doctors just to.
00:27:36
Speaker 2: Keep So let me put it to you like this. Remember, doctors are trained in how they deliver those messages and who they deliver it to. So let's say you've got a cancer diagnosis and now they're updating because you're talking about your treatment. And then they say, it's not looking good. There's not much more we can do. You will naturally ask, but it will be your choice if you decide, let me go tell the whole family. I wouldn't imagine you're going to go to your whole village today. to say I've got three months. I think you would need to take it on yourself to say, who do we want to tell? Because I understand what you're saying. Once the news are delivered in our culture, you know, people must come with cakes.
00:28:20
Speaker 6: Oh, Sipo.
00:28:24
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Sipo. I get you completely. I'm not sure I'm from your side, Dion, what your thoughts are on this, because I get what Sipo is saying. And unfortunately with death, whether you were prepared or not, it sucks either way.
00:28:39
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:28:40
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it's my, my personal view is would I agree with you? I mean, the, the privacy issue is, is yours to, to handle and then yours to manage as well of that person. But I also think that I think the doctors also have a, a duty to, to, to tell you the reality of the situation. And I think, And again, that's my personal view is that having, you know, I'd rather know and have the knowledge of what time I have left or how best to use that time. Even though if I don't tell anybody.
00:29:17
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:29:17
Speaker 3: You know, you can suddenly say, you know. why are you suddenly becoming so generous?
00:29:23
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:29:24
Speaker 2: Also, imagine you would have kept going to work and then you're like, ah, if the doctor told me I have three months, I would have quit my job to go and spend time with my family. But I hear you completely. I'm going to quickly go to Fatima from Tunisia.
00:29:38
Speaker 1: Go ahead, Fatima.
00:29:40
Speaker 7: Good afternoon, Rilebohele and the guests. I just wanted to know, sorry, I missed that first part. My sister-in-law is leaving her property to my husband. I'd just like to know, would it be better to transfer it in her lifetime? or do we wait for her to pass away and then transfer it? Because I think I understood that transfer fees after death are null and void. You don't need to pay transfer fees, or was that wrong?
00:30:13
Speaker 1: Renan?
00:30:16
Speaker 4: So it's transfer duty, which is the tax that gets paid to SARS on the transfer of any property. Transfer fees are a different thing. Those are conveyancing costs that you pay a conveyancer to make the transfer happen. So if your sister-in-law were to transfer the property to your husband now, she would have to pay transfer duty and transfer fees. However, if it were from her estate, the beneficiary, there's no transfer duty. So it's free. It's exempt from transfer duty. And you only pay transfer fees. So it always makes sense to transfer a property from an estate rather than before. In most cases. Yeah.
00:31:12
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Fatima. We need to take another break. Caroline, I see all your questions on the WhatsApp line.
00:31:16
Speaker 1: 702 Masterclass.
00:31:19
Speaker 2: Eight minutes to three o'clock as we wrap up this Masterclass. So double one, double eight, three or seven or two. the WhatsApp line 0727021702. Caroline in Soweto, go ahead.
00:31:30
Speaker 8: Hi, Lebo Hila and your guests. I'd really love to commend you for this very important conversation because I've went through it and I was fortunate enough to have parents who had, like, they are well done and I've always had a sickly mom and my dad has always been the strong one, but Sadly, my dad pre-deceased my mom. And my mom had always been very clear about who must take decisions, when she can.
00:32:03
Speaker 4: Speak, when.
00:32:05
Speaker 8: So I've went through it twice. So I'd really like to commend you and to the listeners that we should make it a norm to talk about those things before it comes to the point where There's nothing that we can do.
00:32:21
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:32:22
Speaker 8: I've had a mom who passed on years and she was on life support, but she did make it very clear to us that should the quality of life not improve, should this and this happen, should I not be able to speak, please just do as if she knew that it was going to happen. So thank you, Relevuhile, for your very amazing topics and to your guests. Thank you. Thank you.
00:32:52
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for your loss.
00:32:54
Speaker 2: I can hear that the pain is still very much there. And thank you for sharing, especially because culturally, you know, it's uncommon to be having these kinds of conversations, but you are a testimony to how it can be beneficial and make it easier for people. those that are left behind. Thank you so much, Caroline. So some of your questions on the WhatsApp line. There's one that says, how do you become a death doula?
00:33:21
Speaker 3: Okay, so when I trained, because I was suddenly getting these messages, all these articles that started coming around there, and I just thought, I don't know what's happening.
00:33:32
Speaker 6: Yes.
00:33:33
Speaker 3: And I had never heard of a death doula. six months before I trained of that. And when I did train, they said, you know, you didn't just wake up one morning and say, well, I think it's a good idea to assist people to pass.
00:33:45
Speaker 1: You were called.
00:33:46
Speaker 3: So very much like the Sangoma, you get called and this is your calling. And they also said you can specialize. So that was the double what? What do you mean specialize? And they said, no, no, just think you've done this before. So right at the beginning of the session, you said it's not just people. So my area of specialization is actually helping people with pet bereavement. So because if you've got your fur baby and if you are that pet parent, then it's a very unrecognized form of grief, and that's what I've decided to validate and bring forward. So to the question is there are training courses all around. There's different certifications. You can either just do it that you just want the skills or there are registered doula organizations around the world. You can register internationally. So it depends on your certification if you are applicable or to an international organization.
00:34:45
Speaker 2: The other specialties, I saw the musician and that's what he does.
00:34:48
Speaker 1: He goes to hospice. He goes to homes.
00:34:50
Speaker 2: There are so many different people from a legal side. What are the documents that all of us should go home today and make sure we compile and put in one place?
00:35:05
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm so glad you asked that question because I've been itching to say that there is a thing called the advanced directive is basically just there's a document that we can do here in South Africa to appoint someone as our spokesperson to give consent or refusal to treatment. And all that's required is that you have to write it down and say, I, Rhiannon, nominate and to be my spokesperson for healthcare decisions and sign it and date it. And then it means that any decisions around health, you are the person that they have to come to and you have to make the decision on my behalf. This is if I'm unconscious or I'm on a machine and unable to speak for myself. And then to have the important conversations like the young lady who phoned in with her mother about being on a life support machine and what you would want. Would you want to be kept alive or would you rather quality of life and say, stop treating me? And then to get your last will and testament in place and to really... you know, think about what the impact of that will be and to keep the original because at the master's office, they want the original document, not a copy. So many people don't know that. And then, you know, obviously to make a folder with all the other important information. And there's a lot of information on the internet around what, you know, how to make those folders.
00:36:59
Speaker 2: And even Nikki Bush, one of our show contributors has on her site, a what if file, you can search on the internet as well. Final wishes, files of things that you can put, including your social media details, all of those, things in one place to make it easier I'm so sad that we have to end the conversation as we've run out of time thank you for tuning in
