speaker-1: Yeah. Welcome to the Bodyworkers Table. Real conversations on bodywork, relationship, nervous systems, and the human experience.
speaker-0: Kari and Jamie from Healing Hands Training. We teach craniosacral therapy and bodywork programs, and between the two of us we've spent a few decades sitting with bodies, nervous systems, stories, symptoms, surprises, and all the things that don't fit neatly into a textbook.
speaker-1: This podcast is really just an extension of the conversations we already have together after working and teaching. Today we're talking about self-governance as practitioners, what it actually means to practice responsibly when no one is necessarily overseeing how you work, and at what point we stop looking to our teachers for the right way to do things and begin trusting our own experience and discernment. Now, before we jump right in, I would love to share a little bit about our upcoming online program, The Enlightened Bodyworker. This is a six module deep dive into trauma informed, embodied practice for bodyworkers. For those of you who want to meet complexity with greater skill and confidence and presence. And this is one of the ways, the primary pathway through which we teach trauma imprint repair. A gentle trauma-informed somatic practice taught alongside subtle body awareness, relational presence, and energetically informed bodywork. We hold six sessions in total every second Wednesday over a three-month period of time so that we can meet together for six deeply transformative teachings to enhance your bodice. Okay, let's get on with the show. Kari, I'm gonna start by asking you. What does self-governance actually mean to you?
speaker-0: Think it's pretty important with craniosacral therapy, as there is no overseer or governing body in North America for us. So self-governance to me means keeping myself accountable and in integrity with what I'm doing, working within my scope. If I have a client that comes to me and I I don't feel comfortable working with the disease or dysfunction that they're currently experiencing, then I don't rather than just hoping for the best. As teachers, I think our our self-governance and our responsibility to portray that to our students is really important as well, so that they understand that it's really important to hold themselves accountable as well. We have in the past, very rarely had one or two go rogue on us and that was good learning for us. I remember having to sit down and have a talk with a few students to just let them know that ⁓ especially when they're starting out, it's really important to to work with what you're comfortable with and not feel like you can solve everybody's neurological problems after one four day training.
speaker-1: So that's what you mean by going rogue, is that maybe they didn't hold any accountability within their practice or for themselves?
speaker-0: Yes. And I think it was born out of excitement for the work, that there was no maliciousness behind it, but but we also have to understand that we are offering a service to people and we need to be careful with what we're doing.
speaker-1: When I think of self-governance, I think a lot about continuing education, specifically because I have taken on a lot of additional studying and programs that deepen my knowledge and how I show up for people, whether that's within my scope or growing beyond my scope, evolving my practice. But what happens when we When we've reached a point, how do we know when we stop outsourcing our authority to our teachers?
speaker-0: So I can just speak for myself. If I am working with a client that has a condition that I'm fairly new at working with, I I might reach out to a mentor or a teacher. I did that much more in the beginning for sure. I think the more people we work with, the more clients we see, the more we we build our understanding of what we're doing. We have those resources within ourselves. But I hope that I can always feel mm feel comfortable reaching out to someone that maybe has a little more experience than me, if need be.
speaker-1: Yeah, I had a pretty interesting experience at our most recent level one. And it was wonderful because there were moments when you shared with the class a certain technique and it was slightly different than how I practice. And I think a while ago I probably would have been a little self-conscious, like, ⁓ I'm doing it wrong. Have I always been doing it wrong? But now I think this time I was more curious in noticing perhaps we simply practice differently now. And that could be our practices evolving as you weave in your osteopathic training. And even with me, perhaps going a little bit softer, more subtle into the biodynamic and pre-imperinatal world. So yeah, noticing that was was a neat experience. And I always have you around too, which has just been an incredible way to learn because you have so generously offered me so much extra time and mentorship, really, even if we're hanging out as buds. So that's been really wonderful to have you to check in on things with. Sometimes I am really unsure and Gosh, in a time where we have Chat GPT, I would much rather ask you or take a course or work with other mentors within the field. Yeah.
speaker-0: One of the beautiful things about cranial sacral therapy is that every every practitioner makes it their own. I think that it's it's natural that you and I will work differently. Maybe you worked very much like I did in the beginning when you were first learning from me and just like I did with my first teacher. But then as we as our confidence and skill set grows, we We naturally incorporate other tools that we're learning elsewhere. Or like you said, we we take other courses and and start incorporating that. And and that's what's so beautiful about it. But it's not doesn't have to be. Everybody has to have a cookie-cutter practice. Everybody has to do things exactly the same. When I have New clients that come and say that they have seen other practitioners in the past, I always let them know, hey, craniosacral therapy, people work differently. So the way I work may be different than the sessions or treatments that you've had in the past, because it's always going to be. It's different hands, it's a different it's a different human coming coming to the table.
speaker-1: I am remembering an experience from many years ago when I had first seen an osteopathic practitioner. And I remember that first experience, it was so much like massage. And that is what I thought osteopathic work was until I saw a different practitioner. And it was entirely different. It was more manual and more structural and less. massage technique and more unwinding, more pressure, more specific touch points. So it just really goes to show that even within other modalities, people can have such different different ways of working.
speaker-0: Yeah. I think it's great.
speaker-1: And do you think your training, your osteopathic training, has changed the way you use your hands?
speaker-0: Well, I hope so. I hope that every training I take continues to ⁓ change the way I work, evolve the way I work. ⁓ that's my hope. You know, I've just started the osteopathic program, so I certainly don't think it's taking over. And I don't know that it ever will. But I I've been doing trades with ⁓ with a very sweet older woman for some time now and It's so wonderful because after the session she spends half an hour teaching me some really cool stuff. She's in her late seventies and she's been practicing cranio and visceral for twice as long as I have. I definitely pick up some stuff from her or from my osteo friend or yeah.
speaker-1: I just finished a scar work course. ⁓ It was beautiful. It was specifically scar work for biodynamic craniocral therapy. And and it really just solidified everything I was already doing with my hands and gave me even more because I also did so much work on my scar after my cesarean. And so I I'm
speaker-0: ⁓ yes, how was it?
speaker-1: interested in scars and and supporting their healing. And now I feel like again, you know, how I'm connecting with the body is changing because you approach scars obviously much different than you would organs or bone. And a lot of it is of course evolving around the fascia and the tissue. ⁓ but we're still listening in the same way. So it's really neat. And I can't wait to start applying it. Great.
speaker-0: So, Jamie, do you think that a weekend workshop qualifies you to integrate something into your practice?
speaker-1: I do within reason. And that reason is that if you feel confident from what you learned and you already have a practice established, you're very likely to have knowledge of anatomy, knowledge of working with your hands or working with people in general. And so I think actually applying something that you learn in a weekend workshop. Is a really positive thing because it's a way that you can begin practicing and embodying the learning. That being said, I I think context is really important. So letting clients know that this is something perhaps new, and would they be open to exploring it as you deepen your practice or as you apply this very new modality. What I do not think a weekend workshop qualifies you as is a full blown practitioner. So let's say you go into a weekend workshop. Okay, so here's a funny story. One time I did this and I broke the rule I am saying now. I was living in Toronto and I went to a two day coaching intensive. With no prior experience. It was at a hotel in one of their ballroom spaces. And, you know, you receive a couple handouts and more than anything, it was a marketing scheme. However, after those two days, I went about saying I was a co- ⁓
speaker-0: You and the other five thousand people.
speaker-1: A life coach at that. Yeah. I would not recommend this now. You know, that was more than a decade ago. So I give myself some grace for doing that. We are not equipped to be any kind of life coach or practitioner after two days of learning. Could that add to our learning? Absolutely. I gained a lot from that, from that training back then. It was useful back then. I don't necessarily use any of it now. But that's also because I have evolved. I've taken other trainings and programs that are more relevant to my interests and what I do now. So I think there is discernment needed when you take a training. When I teach the healing early trauma imprints for babies and small children, I open this training up to practitioners and parents. So some people already have years of experience. working with people or working with their hands. And for them, adding certain holds or listening practices to support babies and their families feels like a seamless integration. However, for parents, I make it clear it's not something that they would take outside of their family. For sure. So there is that distinction there of if there's already an established practice, great. If not, that's okay too. And maybe it opens up a doorway to the modality of craniosacral therapy and they want to continue on or begin or deepen their journey.
speaker-0: I like to tell students if they're already practicing body workers, RMTs, physios, acupuncturists, et cetera, after level one start, start incorporating some of the techniques into their work because that's how we're gonna get the practice. That's how we're gonna build and refine that skill set. And like you said, you know, letting our clients know, hey, this is something new that I'm learning and practicing. Is it okay if we incorporated into your session and then people that are completely new to body work, hey, after level one, get your hands on as many families and friends and bodies that you can so that you do build some sort of foundation. Because yeah, after a f a four day training, it it's not realistic to say, okay, I'm a craniocral therapist now. It's just not. It's just not.
speaker-1: But there also isn't that overarching governance to say that's not allowed.
speaker-0: So, you know, we we let our students know that and we're very available to for questions and comments and ⁓ you know, as they're going out and and working with people. A pledger ⁓ doesn't allow anyone that's not already a a bodyworker, a healthcare practitioner to take their trainings. The biodynamic training, it's a two-year program. I think it kind of is on the on the organization or the teacher to really let this let their students know that yeah, it's important to have integrity and and and go slow.
speaker-1: Did I hear right? I think a while ago I somehow understood that craniosacral therapy was becoming governed by a specific no.
speaker-0: Which is okay. The one benefit I see f for it having a governing body would be that it could eventually then be covered by medical. That's in Canada because we have free medical. But with that comes a whole lot of other things. You know, we're always hearing from students that are RMTs. It seems like they have the strictest association, but but you know, they're restricted in what they can do and what they can say. So I'm I'm okay that that cranio isn't governed.
speaker-1: So if there's no governing body and no one is making you practice ethically, what makes you practice ethically? And I'm asking you, but also in the broader sense of what makes students, people practice ethically?
speaker-0: Hopefully their integrity and their ability to be self-accountable. You know, that's not going to be everyone, but ⁓ but hopefully it's going to be most people that come to this work. And hopefully the longer that people do this work, the ⁓ the more that solidifies for them. And I I say that because I know and from myself as well, you know, in the beginning it's really easy to get excited and go, wow, this is. It's gonna change my life, it's gonna change everybody's life that I work with, and and that can kind of get in the way, but we're working with humans and humans are both really resilient and really vulnerable. And I think it's it's so important to hold ourselves accountable.
speaker-1: And I think of practicing ethically, what unfortunately comes to mind is some of the the videos that you have sent me in the past, mostly of men.
speaker-0: Let's clarify th like we're we're sending these videos because we think they're so hilarious. It's people taking themselves way too seriously and doing some crazy ass shit.
speaker-1: Yeah. And we send them to each other on Instagram whenever we find them. But the ones I think that are so beyond ethics are often the ones what looks like they're somewhere in Bali with a man practitioner and a woman gyrating underneath his hands and he has his hands near her womb or her breasts and they're calling it a trauma release. And I
speaker-0: Absolutely.
speaker-1: have a really hard time seeing that and w wondering how the heck these people practice what they do without being called out for this.
speaker-0: wrong on so many in on so many levels. Well maybe they are called out and they just don't care. Yeah.
speaker-1: So again, that just makes me wonder like how what makes someone practice ethically when they might want to do that? And maybe they think it's ethical and it's just not.
speaker-0: That's a good question. I don't know that I can answer that. You know, we even for like you talked about being a life coach. There's no governing body for life coaches. It's it's the same thing. You know, there's gonna be there's going to be people that that do practice with integrity and there's gonna be other people and I think that we know a few that yeah, that go rogue. So Jamie, I'd like to ask you a question. ⁓ we have this this tradition of asking each other a question at the end of our podcast. And then what I have for you today is what is something completely irrational that you're convinced you could survive?
speaker-1: Have a really good one.
speaker-0: Okay, I wanna hear it.
speaker-1: Well, as a lot of you know, I live on the west coast of Vancouver Island, and there is a very real threat of a big earthquake and specifically where I live, tsunami. And I have spent a many nights up all night thinking about how I might survive this when it happens. I have gone to workshops. With scientists who studied the tsunami in Japan. I have done research online. I have read other people's opinions about it.
speaker-0: And
speaker-1: What I come to is I just have to be as prepared as I can. And so I have run every possible scenario through my mind and have even practiced it in real life, getting to high ground as quickly as I can. And for whatever reason, whatever completely irrational reason, I, in my mind, I always survive. I'm always at the top of the hill.
speaker-0: Awesome.
speaker-1: Waiting it out. Mm-hmm. And when it does happen, I I will be okay.
speaker-0: You'll be okay. Yeah. Yep.
speaker-1: Yeah. Well, hopefully now I don't go to bed thinking about that all night. Thank you all so much for being here with us today. We so hope you've enjoyed this conversation. And we would really love if you took a moment to leave us a review and let us know how you're liking the show. Till next time.
speaker-0: B.
speaker-0: Kari and Jamie from Healing Hands Training. We teach craniosacral therapy and bodywork programs, and between the two of us we've spent a few decades sitting with bodies, nervous systems, stories, symptoms, surprises, and all the things that don't fit neatly into a textbook.
speaker-1: This podcast is really just an extension of the conversations we already have together after working and teaching. Today we're talking about self-governance as practitioners, what it actually means to practice responsibly when no one is necessarily overseeing how you work, and at what point we stop looking to our teachers for the right way to do things and begin trusting our own experience and discernment. Now, before we jump right in, I would love to share a little bit about our upcoming online program, The Enlightened Bodyworker. This is a six module deep dive into trauma informed, embodied practice for bodyworkers. For those of you who want to meet complexity with greater skill and confidence and presence. And this is one of the ways, the primary pathway through which we teach trauma imprint repair. A gentle trauma-informed somatic practice taught alongside subtle body awareness, relational presence, and energetically informed bodywork. We hold six sessions in total every second Wednesday over a three-month period of time so that we can meet together for six deeply transformative teachings to enhance your bodice. Okay, let's get on with the show. Kari, I'm gonna start by asking you. What does self-governance actually mean to you?
speaker-0: Think it's pretty important with craniosacral therapy, as there is no overseer or governing body in North America for us. So self-governance to me means keeping myself accountable and in integrity with what I'm doing, working within my scope. If I have a client that comes to me and I I don't feel comfortable working with the disease or dysfunction that they're currently experiencing, then I don't rather than just hoping for the best. As teachers, I think our our self-governance and our responsibility to portray that to our students is really important as well, so that they understand that it's really important to hold themselves accountable as well. We have in the past, very rarely had one or two go rogue on us and that was good learning for us. I remember having to sit down and have a talk with a few students to just let them know that ⁓ especially when they're starting out, it's really important to to work with what you're comfortable with and not feel like you can solve everybody's neurological problems after one four day training.
speaker-1: So that's what you mean by going rogue, is that maybe they didn't hold any accountability within their practice or for themselves?
speaker-0: Yes. And I think it was born out of excitement for the work, that there was no maliciousness behind it, but but we also have to understand that we are offering a service to people and we need to be careful with what we're doing.
speaker-1: When I think of self-governance, I think a lot about continuing education, specifically because I have taken on a lot of additional studying and programs that deepen my knowledge and how I show up for people, whether that's within my scope or growing beyond my scope, evolving my practice. But what happens when we When we've reached a point, how do we know when we stop outsourcing our authority to our teachers?
speaker-0: So I can just speak for myself. If I am working with a client that has a condition that I'm fairly new at working with, I I might reach out to a mentor or a teacher. I did that much more in the beginning for sure. I think the more people we work with, the more clients we see, the more we we build our understanding of what we're doing. We have those resources within ourselves. But I hope that I can always feel mm feel comfortable reaching out to someone that maybe has a little more experience than me, if need be.
speaker-1: Yeah, I had a pretty interesting experience at our most recent level one. And it was wonderful because there were moments when you shared with the class a certain technique and it was slightly different than how I practice. And I think a while ago I probably would have been a little self-conscious, like, ⁓ I'm doing it wrong. Have I always been doing it wrong? But now I think this time I was more curious in noticing perhaps we simply practice differently now. And that could be our practices evolving as you weave in your osteopathic training. And even with me, perhaps going a little bit softer, more subtle into the biodynamic and pre-imperinatal world. So yeah, noticing that was was a neat experience. And I always have you around too, which has just been an incredible way to learn because you have so generously offered me so much extra time and mentorship, really, even if we're hanging out as buds. So that's been really wonderful to have you to check in on things with. Sometimes I am really unsure and Gosh, in a time where we have Chat GPT, I would much rather ask you or take a course or work with other mentors within the field. Yeah.
speaker-0: One of the beautiful things about cranial sacral therapy is that every every practitioner makes it their own. I think that it's it's natural that you and I will work differently. Maybe you worked very much like I did in the beginning when you were first learning from me and just like I did with my first teacher. But then as we as our confidence and skill set grows, we We naturally incorporate other tools that we're learning elsewhere. Or like you said, we we take other courses and and start incorporating that. And and that's what's so beautiful about it. But it's not doesn't have to be. Everybody has to have a cookie-cutter practice. Everybody has to do things exactly the same. When I have New clients that come and say that they have seen other practitioners in the past, I always let them know, hey, craniosacral therapy, people work differently. So the way I work may be different than the sessions or treatments that you've had in the past, because it's always going to be. It's different hands, it's a different it's a different human coming coming to the table.
speaker-1: I am remembering an experience from many years ago when I had first seen an osteopathic practitioner. And I remember that first experience, it was so much like massage. And that is what I thought osteopathic work was until I saw a different practitioner. And it was entirely different. It was more manual and more structural and less. massage technique and more unwinding, more pressure, more specific touch points. So it just really goes to show that even within other modalities, people can have such different different ways of working.
speaker-0: Yeah. I think it's great.
speaker-1: And do you think your training, your osteopathic training, has changed the way you use your hands?
speaker-0: Well, I hope so. I hope that every training I take continues to ⁓ change the way I work, evolve the way I work. ⁓ that's my hope. You know, I've just started the osteopathic program, so I certainly don't think it's taking over. And I don't know that it ever will. But I I've been doing trades with ⁓ with a very sweet older woman for some time now and It's so wonderful because after the session she spends half an hour teaching me some really cool stuff. She's in her late seventies and she's been practicing cranio and visceral for twice as long as I have. I definitely pick up some stuff from her or from my osteo friend or yeah.
speaker-1: I just finished a scar work course. ⁓ It was beautiful. It was specifically scar work for biodynamic craniocral therapy. And and it really just solidified everything I was already doing with my hands and gave me even more because I also did so much work on my scar after my cesarean. And so I I'm
speaker-0: ⁓ yes, how was it?
speaker-1: interested in scars and and supporting their healing. And now I feel like again, you know, how I'm connecting with the body is changing because you approach scars obviously much different than you would organs or bone. And a lot of it is of course evolving around the fascia and the tissue. ⁓ but we're still listening in the same way. So it's really neat. And I can't wait to start applying it. Great.
speaker-0: So, Jamie, do you think that a weekend workshop qualifies you to integrate something into your practice?
speaker-1: I do within reason. And that reason is that if you feel confident from what you learned and you already have a practice established, you're very likely to have knowledge of anatomy, knowledge of working with your hands or working with people in general. And so I think actually applying something that you learn in a weekend workshop. Is a really positive thing because it's a way that you can begin practicing and embodying the learning. That being said, I I think context is really important. So letting clients know that this is something perhaps new, and would they be open to exploring it as you deepen your practice or as you apply this very new modality. What I do not think a weekend workshop qualifies you as is a full blown practitioner. So let's say you go into a weekend workshop. Okay, so here's a funny story. One time I did this and I broke the rule I am saying now. I was living in Toronto and I went to a two day coaching intensive. With no prior experience. It was at a hotel in one of their ballroom spaces. And, you know, you receive a couple handouts and more than anything, it was a marketing scheme. However, after those two days, I went about saying I was a co- ⁓
speaker-0: You and the other five thousand people.
speaker-1: A life coach at that. Yeah. I would not recommend this now. You know, that was more than a decade ago. So I give myself some grace for doing that. We are not equipped to be any kind of life coach or practitioner after two days of learning. Could that add to our learning? Absolutely. I gained a lot from that, from that training back then. It was useful back then. I don't necessarily use any of it now. But that's also because I have evolved. I've taken other trainings and programs that are more relevant to my interests and what I do now. So I think there is discernment needed when you take a training. When I teach the healing early trauma imprints for babies and small children, I open this training up to practitioners and parents. So some people already have years of experience. working with people or working with their hands. And for them, adding certain holds or listening practices to support babies and their families feels like a seamless integration. However, for parents, I make it clear it's not something that they would take outside of their family. For sure. So there is that distinction there of if there's already an established practice, great. If not, that's okay too. And maybe it opens up a doorway to the modality of craniosacral therapy and they want to continue on or begin or deepen their journey.
speaker-0: I like to tell students if they're already practicing body workers, RMTs, physios, acupuncturists, et cetera, after level one start, start incorporating some of the techniques into their work because that's how we're gonna get the practice. That's how we're gonna build and refine that skill set. And like you said, you know, letting our clients know, hey, this is something new that I'm learning and practicing. Is it okay if we incorporated into your session and then people that are completely new to body work, hey, after level one, get your hands on as many families and friends and bodies that you can so that you do build some sort of foundation. Because yeah, after a f a four day training, it it's not realistic to say, okay, I'm a craniocral therapist now. It's just not. It's just not.
speaker-1: But there also isn't that overarching governance to say that's not allowed.
speaker-0: So, you know, we we let our students know that and we're very available to for questions and comments and ⁓ you know, as they're going out and and working with people. A pledger ⁓ doesn't allow anyone that's not already a a bodyworker, a healthcare practitioner to take their trainings. The biodynamic training, it's a two-year program. I think it kind of is on the on the organization or the teacher to really let this let their students know that yeah, it's important to have integrity and and and go slow.
speaker-1: Did I hear right? I think a while ago I somehow understood that craniosacral therapy was becoming governed by a specific no.
speaker-0: Which is okay. The one benefit I see f for it having a governing body would be that it could eventually then be covered by medical. That's in Canada because we have free medical. But with that comes a whole lot of other things. You know, we're always hearing from students that are RMTs. It seems like they have the strictest association, but but you know, they're restricted in what they can do and what they can say. So I'm I'm okay that that cranio isn't governed.
speaker-1: So if there's no governing body and no one is making you practice ethically, what makes you practice ethically? And I'm asking you, but also in the broader sense of what makes students, people practice ethically?
speaker-0: Hopefully their integrity and their ability to be self-accountable. You know, that's not going to be everyone, but ⁓ but hopefully it's going to be most people that come to this work. And hopefully the longer that people do this work, the ⁓ the more that solidifies for them. And I I say that because I know and from myself as well, you know, in the beginning it's really easy to get excited and go, wow, this is. It's gonna change my life, it's gonna change everybody's life that I work with, and and that can kind of get in the way, but we're working with humans and humans are both really resilient and really vulnerable. And I think it's it's so important to hold ourselves accountable.
speaker-1: And I think of practicing ethically, what unfortunately comes to mind is some of the the videos that you have sent me in the past, mostly of men.
speaker-0: Let's clarify th like we're we're sending these videos because we think they're so hilarious. It's people taking themselves way too seriously and doing some crazy ass shit.
speaker-1: Yeah. And we send them to each other on Instagram whenever we find them. But the ones I think that are so beyond ethics are often the ones what looks like they're somewhere in Bali with a man practitioner and a woman gyrating underneath his hands and he has his hands near her womb or her breasts and they're calling it a trauma release. And I
speaker-0: Absolutely.
speaker-1: have a really hard time seeing that and w wondering how the heck these people practice what they do without being called out for this.
speaker-0: wrong on so many in on so many levels. Well maybe they are called out and they just don't care. Yeah.
speaker-1: So again, that just makes me wonder like how what makes someone practice ethically when they might want to do that? And maybe they think it's ethical and it's just not.
speaker-0: That's a good question. I don't know that I can answer that. You know, we even for like you talked about being a life coach. There's no governing body for life coaches. It's it's the same thing. You know, there's gonna be there's going to be people that that do practice with integrity and there's gonna be other people and I think that we know a few that yeah, that go rogue. So Jamie, I'd like to ask you a question. ⁓ we have this this tradition of asking each other a question at the end of our podcast. And then what I have for you today is what is something completely irrational that you're convinced you could survive?
speaker-1: Have a really good one.
speaker-0: Okay, I wanna hear it.
speaker-1: Well, as a lot of you know, I live on the west coast of Vancouver Island, and there is a very real threat of a big earthquake and specifically where I live, tsunami. And I have spent a many nights up all night thinking about how I might survive this when it happens. I have gone to workshops. With scientists who studied the tsunami in Japan. I have done research online. I have read other people's opinions about it.
speaker-0: And
speaker-1: What I come to is I just have to be as prepared as I can. And so I have run every possible scenario through my mind and have even practiced it in real life, getting to high ground as quickly as I can. And for whatever reason, whatever completely irrational reason, I, in my mind, I always survive. I'm always at the top of the hill.
speaker-0: Awesome.
speaker-1: Waiting it out. Mm-hmm. And when it does happen, I I will be okay.
speaker-0: You'll be okay. Yeah. Yep.
speaker-1: Yeah. Well, hopefully now I don't go to bed thinking about that all night. Thank you all so much for being here with us today. We so hope you've enjoyed this conversation. And we would really love if you took a moment to leave us a review and let us know how you're liking the show. Till next time.
speaker-0: B.
