WEBVTT
00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:12.800
Building ready, building smart, whichever phrase you want to use within your industry, but we've got to be ready for change, and if you stay still, you're gonna get left behind.
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:15.199
Welcome to Talking Power.
00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:21.920
Today we're exploring one of the biggest challenges facing organizations on the road to net zero: turning ambition into action.
00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:33.840
For many businesses and public sector organizations, the challenge is no longer setting decarbonisation targets, it's delivering them, while balancing budgets, aging assets, operational demands, and energy costs.
00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:43.119
We'll be discussing how organizations can bridge that gap through smarter building management, operational efficiency, funding, and the growing role of energy flexibility.
00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:49.359
Joining me today is Lewis Welch, head of energy transition at Dao Kea, part of EDF.
00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:54.320
He works with organizations to deliver practical decarbonisation across thousands of buildings.
00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:56.479
Lewis, welcome to Talking Power.
00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:57.679
It's great to have you with us.
00:00:58.000 --> 00:00:58.880
Thanks for the introduction.
00:00:59.039 --> 00:00:59.920
Looking forward to this.
00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:01.759
What makes delivery so different?
00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:08.719
I mean, almost every large organization now has decarbonisation strategies, yet many seem to be making slower progress than expected.
00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:09.920
What's getting in the way?
00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:13.760
I think setting ambition is been generally straightforward.
00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:26.560
It's driven by stakeholder pressures, regulatory expectations, and the ability to deliver those strategies is become a transition that many businesses are really beginning to struggle with.
00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.239
Operationally complex facilities and asset constraints.
00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:38.159
So the understanding of how buildings are managed and operated is still what I believe is way behind where we need to be within the UK.
00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:42.640
So has net zero become more of an operational challenge than a technology challenge?
00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:44.159
That's a good question.
00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:46.319
I think they go both hand in glove.
00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:50.400
Operational challenges, behaviours, the way that we operate assets in there.
00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:53.599
You know, we'll we'll talk no doubt around capital expenditure.
00:01:53.840 --> 00:02:07.280
Unless we behave correctly or control systems correctly through right process and procedure, then capital projects, asset control, etc., won't work unless we've got the right behaviours, the training, the engineers to do that.
00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:11.520
And in the UK, again, we're experiencing gaps in that marketplace.
00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:18.159
I mean, when you first walk into a large estate or complex building, what are the first signs that tell you it's wasting energy?
00:02:18.400 --> 00:02:29.919
I I think anybody would walk into a building now, you especially in the UK climate, we've got, you know, we're just about to go through again another heat wave, the the second of the last two to three weeks in there.
00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:42.319
The control of infrastructure in there around heating and cooling, we generally find wet systems are on, heating systems are on during summer months, or we've got windows that are opening when you know there's there's cooling modes in place.
00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:50.639
So there's generally standout things that we identify when we walk into large infrastructure and we just know there's something fundamentally wrong within that building.
00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:55.840
And I think from a building operator point of view, that's the way it's always been.
00:02:56.000 --> 00:03:04.560
So the challenges aren't there at building level, and that's where the expertise within Dellcare EDF group we're we're really beginning to support that now.
00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:07.120
Do you find that technology isn't actually the problem?
00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:09.439
It's the way it's been controlled or used.
00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:13.919
Technology not being the problem, as in understanding how it can be used.
00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:22.800
And we've got assets out in the field that haven't got the technology to control them, or we've got the control that can't control old-aged assets in infrastructure.
00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:31.520
So it's understanding what you know, not one size fits all, it is more around identifying what is the best solution for that building.
00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:34.000
So onto the the money question.
00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:37.199
I mean, there's a perception that decarbonisation is expensive.
00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:38.400
Is that still true?
00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:50.400
I think some elements of decarbonisation certainly uh require significant investment, but the trade-off between sustainability and the cost diminishing is not quite there.
00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:56.479
We're in a world now where decarbonisation strategies are in place, but electrification is expensive.
00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:02.240
So there's definitely a trade-off between the two, but we have to also think about the the future, the building resilience.
00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:05.919
We don't have a crystal ball, so the energy costs we're unsure of.
00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:08.879
So future resilience is a key piece into it.
00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:12.719
So it's not just a return on investment against capital.
00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:20.480
We have to think about all the other gains that we can get out of this because that has generally been the trade-off that we're experiencing within the built environment.
00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:29.279
But that sort of appetite to at least have decarbonisation plans, has that meant that people are less likely to balk immediately just at capital's expense?
00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:35.439
They are willing to take a oh, I understand this will pay itself back, even if it's seven years' time.
00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:44.000
Yeah, there is that now perception in there because of the return on investment in there that we're starting to stretch out from the two to three year sort of quick wins.
00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:46.319
We're now looking at longer-term strategies.
00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:53.199
But again, that all depends now on who owns the building, whether you're a tenant in the building, it's a long-term lease agreement in there.
00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:58.160
So they all have uh significant trade-offs to how capital projects are are spent.
00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:04.000
Certainly in a way now where capital projects have been installed at cost in in there.
00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:07.360
There are a lot of other benefits to just quick return on investment.
00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:14.560
I mean, obviously technology is an enabler in decarbonisation, but if I gave you a building with no budget, where would you start?
00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:15.920
Behaviour.
00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:17.040
Uh, absolutely.
00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:24.800
There is so much waste in the in the built environment, and that's not due to poor building users.
00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:33.839
That is just been a growing feature, I think, across the UK for many, many years, whether that be building control, the way that we use energy.
00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:38.319
Again, I mentioned earlier on, um, that's just the way it's always been.
00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:39.920
It that is always been on.
00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.079
Something's always been in that position.
00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:43.920
So we're not going to challenge it.
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:45.680
Or it's hot, we always open the window.
00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:46.800
Yeah, as simple as that.
00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:47.600
We don't need to think about it.
00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:51.600
And now we're becoming more reliant on chilling and AC in buildings.
00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:58.319
We're now turning those on at 17, 18 degrees and still opening windows because that's what we've always done.
00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:07.680
So behaviours are an absolute critical part to how we we operate and manage and maintain these buildings for ultimately uh within Del Kier.
00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:13.519
I look at providing the best comfort conditions in the most economical way possible.
00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:17.199
And that transition is where we've really got to play into this market.
00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:19.439
Some of these basics that you've just hinted at.
00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:24.639
I mean, our organisations sometimes chasing shiny new technology before fixing these the basics.
00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:25.439
Absolutely.
00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:25.759
Yes.
00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:32.639
The new buzz technology, the new innovations, the world of IoT, Internet of Things is everywhere.
00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:38.639
It's at home, it's bought on mainstream shopping channels that you get on your mobile phones.
00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:40.800
You buy them to control your own homes.
00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:45.439
So we're all after the the sort of the buzz innovations, the the large infrastructure in there.
00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:47.519
Flag waving solar panels on your roof.
00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:49.920
Not solved your bowler room.
00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:50.879
Absolutely, yeah.
00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:52.560
And um, you know, it's it's great.
00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:53.120
PR.
00:06:53.279 --> 00:07:01.839
Solar panels is a is a slightly different one because ultimately, you know, providing resilience for your own energy grid, huge carbon reduction activity.
00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:03.759
Um pick that just because it's visible.
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:04.480
Absolutely.
00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:09.600
It is, and it's visible in there, but it's a great it's a great place for the PR world in there.
00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:19.199
Now we're into the world of heat pumps and all different kinds of controls, and heat pumps not a new technology, but it's a it's a new innovation into how we control our buildings for heat.
00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:39.839
Yeah, I think there's certainly a again a trade-off between wanting good innovation in a building, but we seem to be forgetting the the bottom-up approach, and that's where at Dell Cia we look after sort of manage and optimise as our very, very first piece of work into a building before we look to innovate and deliver.
00:07:39.920 --> 00:08:00.399
Uh, and that's how we sort of really that bottom-up approach, that long-term effect, that long-term partnership with our with our customers and clients in the built environment to prove that optimizing buildings, behaving better, understanding control, training and knowledge in there will give those capital projects uh the best chance of working.
00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:15.920
Just sticking with this for a slight second, is that when you've optimised a building really well and you've educated staff to you know behavioural change and things that they should look out for, how do you make that persist when you kind of leave the scene, as it were?
00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:18.160
Yeah, that that's probably the biggest challenge.
00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:19.040
By drift.
00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:19.519
Yeah, actually.
00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:22.160
So build building drift and and and the use.
00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:40.159
So if we think around um the BMS, the building management system, or the BEMS, the BEMS, and they're building energy management systems that we have across the whole of the port or lots of portfolios, or buildings that don't have building management systems, there are APIs, there are boxes that we can control assets with.
00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:46.399
At day one, they're they're under almost a design ops, a current building usage.
00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:51.919
But post-COVID, uh people's behaviours in buildings have changed.
00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:53.600
The building uses have changed.
00:08:53.759 --> 00:09:00.159
Lots of people now work from home Monday, work from home Friday, they're in offices Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:04.399
We've changed use of buildings, whereas let's just be really basic.
00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:15.279
Uh, in an office area, West Wing is now half populated and East Wing's not populated at all, there's one or two in there, changing those behaviours to make everybody sit in west wing of an office in there.
00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:17.279
But that is building change.
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:24.080
However, the operating systems have still remained at design ops stage or or building operation stage.
00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:30.000
Continual improvement is is a significant part of how we continually optimise buildings.
00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:35.360
We uh at Del Kir uh are ISO 50,001 certified.
00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:38.639
Uh that's the international standard for managing energy.
00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:44.639
Um, and ultimately we take that best practice into how we support building management system operation.
00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:53.039
So continual improvement, continual change of operation, continual smart effect on how we we manage those buildings has to happen.
00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:55.840
Otherwise, you will end up with building drift.
00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:00.000
I mean, let's assume we've got a building that's operating efficiently.
00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:02.720
Where does flexibility enter the picture?
00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:15.200
Um, so working with my good colleagues at EDF, in there, we we are in a world now where um flexible asset management is becoming uh a more viable solution.
00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:29.600
So long time ago, with my electrical FM hat on, we were under the old DSR world, to demand side response, where we'd be asking those with large generation to switch on during volatility within the national grid periods.
00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:40.000
We're now in a position where smart building controls or well-managed building controls gives the ability to almost create a microgrid of multiple assets.
00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:46.480
So that gives us flexibility in the market to actually drop consumption within an estate of multiple buildings.
00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:57.440
So it used to be very sat into the fact that only large assets, but actually multiple assets now make a viable opportunity to flexibly control the the market based.
00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:01.679
Aggregating every building in the university estate rather than a steel works.
00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:05.440
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, or a one valuable or a one singular asset.
00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:13.200
So, but again, we we allude to the fact around having good control, continual control, uh, and being really smart with that.
00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:20.799
Is that something that's driven to the customers that come bring up that conversation, or is that coming from yourselves saying that have you thought about this?
00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:44.159
Yeah, um that that's generally coming from ourselves now, that knowledge within the marketplace, that ever-changing innovation in in the power where you know I rely on EDF in the works that I do within EDF, in the innovation team within EDF, you know, we we are very reliant on those kind of innovations coming into the marketplace to help us understand how we can better control the built environment.
00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:50.399
So taking those innovations in there, and innovation isn't always around a big box being put into a building.
00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:56.480
This is around smart control and how we operate better, and I suppose really links back to the change of behaviour again.
00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:02.399
Well, there's also there's been classic things like time of use, you just shift it and get get get some payback on that.
00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:14.000
But I think there's clever things where you maybe the whole of Tesco's trims five percent off its refrigeration, it's a huge uh come down, and you know what I mean, but a very subtle change.
00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:18.080
Huge loads, yeah, huge loads across the whole of the UK.
00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:21.600
So, you know, a great one there within the retail sector.
00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:36.159
You start to add up the amount of assets they've got in there that we could remotely control or remotely get into to be lean and and and affect change that the national grid needs very quickly, then yeah, there's a huge piece to be looked at across that.
00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:48.960
There's a lot of hype around AI, and is the industry actually ready for it?
00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.200
And what difference is it going to make?
00:12:51.600 --> 00:13:08.080
I believe, and if I link this into building management control again, it seems like I'm just all around BMS control, but uh there's a lot of AI around automating control within building management systems, but ultimately we've we've got such a change in marketplace in there.
00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:12.879
Poor data in generally means poor AI or poor data out.
00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:20.399
So there's still that human element that needs to be linked into AI, giving opportunity for improvement in there.
00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.320
So it still needs a human element in there, but there is so much again.
00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:25.919
I think are we ready for it?
00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:44.080
No, I don't think we are, because we across the whole of the UK, maybe not the whole of the UK, but my perception across the last 15-20 years within energy and FM is that I don't think we've got the data to be able to allow AI to do what it needs to do, and that is a critical part of where I want to be at.
00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:48.720
We need to manage data better, and that's that again, that bottom-up approach, get our data right.
00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:53.840
Well, that was one of my follow-up questions was does AI solve problems, or does it simply expose poor quality data?
00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:55.600
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:58.559
Exposes seriously poor quality data.
00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:05.679
Um, you know, I'm not a fan of submetering something for the sake of it, it costs money to to put in lots of submetering.
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:12.480
Uh, and unless you're going to use that data, then really I I I do question the so what so what are you going to do with it?
00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:16.639
But it's certainly beginning to expose uh the data side of things.
00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:27.840
If we're going to start to smartly control assets or allow AI to give us the ability to control assets, and generally we're going to need asset level data, and I don't think that's in the field at present.
00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:32.399
I mean, how much of the challenge is driven by aging buildings, retrofit complexity?
00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.639
Because that's most of the buildings are already here that will be the ones that need to be effective.
00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:37.200
Absolutely.
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:44.000
Look, well, I think we're in a position where um retrofit is certainly the key enabler to all this.
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:46.320
I think we approach 2030.
00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:54.879
I think in 2050, which lots of people have got their ESG targets set to, we're still going to have the same buildings stood up in 2050.
00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:55.519
Absolutely, yeah.
00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:56.240
Absolutely.
00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:10.639
Yeah, the retrofit side of it is in there, and again, mentioned a little earlier, we've got aged assets in buildings that we we can't control with smart control, or we've got newer assets in there with aged building controls in there.
00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:17.679
So again, that knowledge, that understanding of how we how we do that and those behaviours to be able to do that are significant.
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:23.440
If we were recorded this podcast again in five years, what do you think would have changed the most?
00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:24.720
Think or hope.
00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:25.759
Yeah, hope.
00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:38.399
I hope that we are in certainly in more of a position to understand our data and understand where we can seriously affect change because resource is is at a premium.
00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.120
We struggle with engineers within the UK.
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:51.440
We certainly, and I know this as a recruiting senior leader, that it's difficult to get energy people in or sustainability people into practice.
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:56.320
So I hope knowledge and resource is is significantly improved.
00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:10.559
I hope that we are investing more into our younger generation around knowledge of infrastructure, and then we can be really lean in where we can seriously affect the decarbonisation, the electrify routes that we want to go down.
00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:19.200
So and and the fact that let's not move, let's not shy away from innovation is coming and the AI world is coming, but without that, I don't think we'll we'll step forward.
00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:20.799
So that's where I really hope we're at.
00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:29.759
If an organisation were to give you access to one building tomorrow morning and asked you to save money within the next 90 days, not five years, what would you do first?
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:33.200
Would it be all behaviour as we've mentioned, or are there other things?
00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:43.759
Yeah, firstly, is to understand a baseline, again, it's going to sound like I'm a broken record with data, but understand again, understand what their data is, what their data sets are, their building usage.
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:47.919
So there's a lot of sort of what would be a request for information.
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:49.360
So how does their building operate?
00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:50.720
Well, what would we do first?
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:52.559
Absolutely, the the that bottom up.
00:16:52.639 --> 00:17:08.880
I I call it a kick-the-tire survey, not investment grade surveys where we bring in lots of supply chains for feasibility studies, etc., but really get into the nuts and bolts of the lower users of the building, you know, who's in first, who's out last, and start to really affect those behaviours.
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:20.400
And if we can get that optimization removed or the waste removed through optimization, then we really start to look into the strategic roadmaps and strategy of capital expenditure.
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:22.240
So yeah, getting into buildings.
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:23.519
I like getting into buildings.
00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:28.640
I really like getting into plant rooms uh and understanding what's in there and how things are being used.
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:33.759
What advice would you give an organization that's just beginning its decarbonisation journey?
00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:39.599
Establish a clear data set and understand its current performance.
00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:47.839
But I think when you're going to start a journey like this, you need to understand what metric you're going to use to drive performance improvements.
00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:54.720
You know, there's the weather data building users, capital expenditure.
00:17:54.880 --> 00:18:02.799
There are many metrics out there, uh, and we shouldn't just use one, multiple metrics to to begin to track performance in there.
00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:12.960
Um, but ultimately uh develop that baseline, um, identify quick win, optimize opportunities in there, create and understand assets.
00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.000
I think I've you know I probably should have mentioned this a few times more in there.
00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:20.720
Understand the assets in your building, their age, their life of what they've been using there.
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:29.119
And and again, I think when we look at asset registers in there, I don't think they're they're flourished in in the way that we really need them, uh, to understand what can replace them.
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.839
And then embed accountability, roles and responsibility in there.
00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:44.799
Sustainability managers and energy managers across the UK at the moment are are generally singular within within organisations or or or few and far between supporting mechanisms.
00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:53.200
So embedding that accountability in there and linking into senior leaders, getting it written into strategy, process and procedures.
00:18:53.279 --> 00:19:01.680
So you're almost at a position there where you you could produce a delivery pipeline, an opportunity for investment over the next few years.
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:06.480
Obviously, over this discussion, it's highlighted that data is key.
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:15.039
Is it that they're not measuring the data or that they've got loads of data and they're not gathering it into a single repository where it's become useful?
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:36.799
Experience of of both, if I'm being honest, there's generally data out there, supplier data isn't always easy to come by uh or to understand, but there there are so many uh areas where it's just invoice data, so time and resource to understand the invoice data, the collation of data into a meaningful report.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:43.839
And we all like a pretty picture, we all like graphics in there because that makes you know better than text reading in there.
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:51.119
So ultimately, the data's just generally not collated into a into a reportable format or an auditable format.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:53.119
So there's lots of data out there.
00:19:53.440 --> 00:20:01.359
When we start talking around the next level of granular data down from supplier data, that's probably the piece that's missing the most.
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:06.880
We're all we've all got our supplier data, we just don't collate it into areas uh of use.
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.720
It's the next level down granular data that we're really after.
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.039
That's probably the bit that's missing the most.
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:16.480
What's the biggest myth around building decarbonisation?
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:19.200
Biggest myth.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:27.839
I think we we're we're probably now in a position where it's expensive on costs for decarbonisation.
00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:51.519
So removal of a fossil fuel gas boiler uh and let's say we've put in a modulating electric boiler or a or a heat pump, ultimately the uh the energy cost is is is up, you know, uh I'll broadly say seven to nine p for for gas, six p for gas, and uh twenty odd pence for electricity, it's it's more expensive to do that.
00:20:51.759 --> 00:21:02.079
But that's not so much of a myth, but ultimately I think when we we we talked earlier that the the trade-off between capital investment and return on investment has to sort of be overseen.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:05.599
It can't just be that it's look they're not gonna return quickly.
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:10.079
So ultimately, I think that the myth is that that's just not a viable solution.
00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:25.359
But when you think about life cycle of assets, um the the long-term strategy in there, what the energy cost is going to be in the future, and building that resilience for you as a building user, building owner, bill payer, that's the piece that I think we need to get over.
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:31.519
It's almost like you get told, Oh, that sounds risky, but but you forget the idea that staying still is risky.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:33.359
There's a risk attached to doing nothing.
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:34.400
For sure, for sure.
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:36.880
And if you stay still, you're gonna get left behind.
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:45.200
So um, I don't think there's a again, there's not a one solution fits all, but we need to be ready to to move our road map.
00:21:45.279 --> 00:22:01.119
Uh, it's not a straight road, but as long as we get smarter, building ready, uh, building smart, whichever phrase you want to use within your industry, but we've got to be ready for change and working around how that sort of sits into the way that we operate buildings is in there.
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:07.279
So, yeah, the myth is probably more around the removal of our thoughts around return on investment and capital spend.
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.440
And finally, what's the one thing you wish more organizations understood?
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:17.599
I think just the expertise and and support that they can get out in the industry and and the knowledge that's out there.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:23.599
I think we'll probably talk funding opportunities out there and how they they will sit um in there.
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:30.160
But I just wish that they had a little bit more exposure to to the expertise within within the environment.
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:39.920
You know, that is part of my job within Del Kia to ensure that our clients have got the knowledge and the building users have got the knowledge of what what is the art of the possible out there.
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:48.559
It's clearly not um, you know, it's clearly not out and about ready to just pick up magazines and and videos and things that that's not out there.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:55.440
So I hope and I wish that you know we we move into supporting them a little bit more in that in that part of the world.
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:56.799
Thank you so much, Lewis.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:58.640
That's been really interesting talking to you.
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.279
It's been an absolute pleasure to be here, really enjoyed that.
00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:20.400
If anybody needs any more information through Delcir or EDF, visit the websites edf.com forward slash business wholesale or see us at LinkedIn at EDF Business Wholesale or Delkeir at delkear.co.uk or at Delkeiruk on LinkedIn, and please reach out.
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:24.240
And if you want the latest news and views, go to the energist.com.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:25.519
Thank you.
00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:12.800
Building ready, building smart, whichever phrase you want to use within your industry, but we've got to be ready for change, and if you stay still, you're gonna get left behind.
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:15.199
Welcome to Talking Power.
00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:21.920
Today we're exploring one of the biggest challenges facing organizations on the road to net zero: turning ambition into action.
00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:33.840
For many businesses and public sector organizations, the challenge is no longer setting decarbonisation targets, it's delivering them, while balancing budgets, aging assets, operational demands, and energy costs.
00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:43.119
We'll be discussing how organizations can bridge that gap through smarter building management, operational efficiency, funding, and the growing role of energy flexibility.
00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:49.359
Joining me today is Lewis Welch, head of energy transition at Dao Kea, part of EDF.
00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:54.320
He works with organizations to deliver practical decarbonisation across thousands of buildings.
00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:56.479
Lewis, welcome to Talking Power.
00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:57.679
It's great to have you with us.
00:00:58.000 --> 00:00:58.880
Thanks for the introduction.
00:00:59.039 --> 00:00:59.920
Looking forward to this.
00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:01.759
What makes delivery so different?
00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:08.719
I mean, almost every large organization now has decarbonisation strategies, yet many seem to be making slower progress than expected.
00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:09.920
What's getting in the way?
00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:13.760
I think setting ambition is been generally straightforward.
00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:26.560
It's driven by stakeholder pressures, regulatory expectations, and the ability to deliver those strategies is become a transition that many businesses are really beginning to struggle with.
00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.239
Operationally complex facilities and asset constraints.
00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:38.159
So the understanding of how buildings are managed and operated is still what I believe is way behind where we need to be within the UK.
00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:42.640
So has net zero become more of an operational challenge than a technology challenge?
00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:44.159
That's a good question.
00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:46.319
I think they go both hand in glove.
00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:50.400
Operational challenges, behaviours, the way that we operate assets in there.
00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:53.599
You know, we'll we'll talk no doubt around capital expenditure.
00:01:53.840 --> 00:02:07.280
Unless we behave correctly or control systems correctly through right process and procedure, then capital projects, asset control, etc., won't work unless we've got the right behaviours, the training, the engineers to do that.
00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:11.520
And in the UK, again, we're experiencing gaps in that marketplace.
00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:18.159
I mean, when you first walk into a large estate or complex building, what are the first signs that tell you it's wasting energy?
00:02:18.400 --> 00:02:29.919
I I think anybody would walk into a building now, you especially in the UK climate, we've got, you know, we're just about to go through again another heat wave, the the second of the last two to three weeks in there.
00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:42.319
The control of infrastructure in there around heating and cooling, we generally find wet systems are on, heating systems are on during summer months, or we've got windows that are opening when you know there's there's cooling modes in place.
00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:50.639
So there's generally standout things that we identify when we walk into large infrastructure and we just know there's something fundamentally wrong within that building.
00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:55.840
And I think from a building operator point of view, that's the way it's always been.
00:02:56.000 --> 00:03:04.560
So the challenges aren't there at building level, and that's where the expertise within Dellcare EDF group we're we're really beginning to support that now.
00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:07.120
Do you find that technology isn't actually the problem?
00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:09.439
It's the way it's been controlled or used.
00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:13.919
Technology not being the problem, as in understanding how it can be used.
00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:22.800
And we've got assets out in the field that haven't got the technology to control them, or we've got the control that can't control old-aged assets in infrastructure.
00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:31.520
So it's understanding what you know, not one size fits all, it is more around identifying what is the best solution for that building.
00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:34.000
So onto the the money question.
00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:37.199
I mean, there's a perception that decarbonisation is expensive.
00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:38.400
Is that still true?
00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:50.400
I think some elements of decarbonisation certainly uh require significant investment, but the trade-off between sustainability and the cost diminishing is not quite there.
00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:56.479
We're in a world now where decarbonisation strategies are in place, but electrification is expensive.
00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:02.240
So there's definitely a trade-off between the two, but we have to also think about the the future, the building resilience.
00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:05.919
We don't have a crystal ball, so the energy costs we're unsure of.
00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:08.879
So future resilience is a key piece into it.
00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:12.719
So it's not just a return on investment against capital.
00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:20.480
We have to think about all the other gains that we can get out of this because that has generally been the trade-off that we're experiencing within the built environment.
00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:29.279
But that sort of appetite to at least have decarbonisation plans, has that meant that people are less likely to balk immediately just at capital's expense?
00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:35.439
They are willing to take a oh, I understand this will pay itself back, even if it's seven years' time.
00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:44.000
Yeah, there is that now perception in there because of the return on investment in there that we're starting to stretch out from the two to three year sort of quick wins.
00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:46.319
We're now looking at longer-term strategies.
00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:53.199
But again, that all depends now on who owns the building, whether you're a tenant in the building, it's a long-term lease agreement in there.
00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:58.160
So they all have uh significant trade-offs to how capital projects are are spent.
00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:04.000
Certainly in a way now where capital projects have been installed at cost in in there.
00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:07.360
There are a lot of other benefits to just quick return on investment.
00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:14.560
I mean, obviously technology is an enabler in decarbonisation, but if I gave you a building with no budget, where would you start?
00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:15.920
Behaviour.
00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:17.040
Uh, absolutely.
00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:24.800
There is so much waste in the in the built environment, and that's not due to poor building users.
00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:33.839
That is just been a growing feature, I think, across the UK for many, many years, whether that be building control, the way that we use energy.
00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:38.319
Again, I mentioned earlier on, um, that's just the way it's always been.
00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:39.920
It that is always been on.
00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.079
Something's always been in that position.
00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:43.920
So we're not going to challenge it.
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:45.680
Or it's hot, we always open the window.
00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:46.800
Yeah, as simple as that.
00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:47.600
We don't need to think about it.
00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:51.600
And now we're becoming more reliant on chilling and AC in buildings.
00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:58.319
We're now turning those on at 17, 18 degrees and still opening windows because that's what we've always done.
00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:07.680
So behaviours are an absolute critical part to how we we operate and manage and maintain these buildings for ultimately uh within Del Kier.
00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:13.519
I look at providing the best comfort conditions in the most economical way possible.
00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:17.199
And that transition is where we've really got to play into this market.
00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:19.439
Some of these basics that you've just hinted at.
00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:24.639
I mean, our organisations sometimes chasing shiny new technology before fixing these the basics.
00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:25.439
Absolutely.
00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:25.759
Yes.
00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:32.639
The new buzz technology, the new innovations, the world of IoT, Internet of Things is everywhere.
00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:38.639
It's at home, it's bought on mainstream shopping channels that you get on your mobile phones.
00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:40.800
You buy them to control your own homes.
00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:45.439
So we're all after the the sort of the buzz innovations, the the large infrastructure in there.
00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:47.519
Flag waving solar panels on your roof.
00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:49.920
Not solved your bowler room.
00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:50.879
Absolutely, yeah.
00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:52.560
And um, you know, it's it's great.
00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:53.120
PR.
00:06:53.279 --> 00:07:01.839
Solar panels is a is a slightly different one because ultimately, you know, providing resilience for your own energy grid, huge carbon reduction activity.
00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:03.759
Um pick that just because it's visible.
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:04.480
Absolutely.
00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:09.600
It is, and it's visible in there, but it's a great it's a great place for the PR world in there.
00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:19.199
Now we're into the world of heat pumps and all different kinds of controls, and heat pumps not a new technology, but it's a it's a new innovation into how we control our buildings for heat.
00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:39.839
Yeah, I think there's certainly a again a trade-off between wanting good innovation in a building, but we seem to be forgetting the the bottom-up approach, and that's where at Dell Cia we look after sort of manage and optimise as our very, very first piece of work into a building before we look to innovate and deliver.
00:07:39.920 --> 00:08:00.399
Uh, and that's how we sort of really that bottom-up approach, that long-term effect, that long-term partnership with our with our customers and clients in the built environment to prove that optimizing buildings, behaving better, understanding control, training and knowledge in there will give those capital projects uh the best chance of working.
00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:15.920
Just sticking with this for a slight second, is that when you've optimised a building really well and you've educated staff to you know behavioural change and things that they should look out for, how do you make that persist when you kind of leave the scene, as it were?
00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:18.160
Yeah, that that's probably the biggest challenge.
00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:19.040
By drift.
00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:19.519
Yeah, actually.
00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:22.160
So build building drift and and and the use.
00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:40.159
So if we think around um the BMS, the building management system, or the BEMS, the BEMS, and they're building energy management systems that we have across the whole of the port or lots of portfolios, or buildings that don't have building management systems, there are APIs, there are boxes that we can control assets with.
00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:46.399
At day one, they're they're under almost a design ops, a current building usage.
00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:51.919
But post-COVID, uh people's behaviours in buildings have changed.
00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:53.600
The building uses have changed.
00:08:53.759 --> 00:09:00.159
Lots of people now work from home Monday, work from home Friday, they're in offices Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:04.399
We've changed use of buildings, whereas let's just be really basic.
00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:15.279
Uh, in an office area, West Wing is now half populated and East Wing's not populated at all, there's one or two in there, changing those behaviours to make everybody sit in west wing of an office in there.
00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:17.279
But that is building change.
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:24.080
However, the operating systems have still remained at design ops stage or or building operation stage.
00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:30.000
Continual improvement is is a significant part of how we continually optimise buildings.
00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:35.360
We uh at Del Kir uh are ISO 50,001 certified.
00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:38.639
Uh that's the international standard for managing energy.
00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:44.639
Um, and ultimately we take that best practice into how we support building management system operation.
00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:53.039
So continual improvement, continual change of operation, continual smart effect on how we we manage those buildings has to happen.
00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:55.840
Otherwise, you will end up with building drift.
00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:00.000
I mean, let's assume we've got a building that's operating efficiently.
00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:02.720
Where does flexibility enter the picture?
00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:15.200
Um, so working with my good colleagues at EDF, in there, we we are in a world now where um flexible asset management is becoming uh a more viable solution.
00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:29.600
So long time ago, with my electrical FM hat on, we were under the old DSR world, to demand side response, where we'd be asking those with large generation to switch on during volatility within the national grid periods.
00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:40.000
We're now in a position where smart building controls or well-managed building controls gives the ability to almost create a microgrid of multiple assets.
00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:46.480
So that gives us flexibility in the market to actually drop consumption within an estate of multiple buildings.
00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:57.440
So it used to be very sat into the fact that only large assets, but actually multiple assets now make a viable opportunity to flexibly control the the market based.
00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:01.679
Aggregating every building in the university estate rather than a steel works.
00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:05.440
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, or a one valuable or a one singular asset.
00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:13.200
So, but again, we we allude to the fact around having good control, continual control, uh, and being really smart with that.
00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:20.799
Is that something that's driven to the customers that come bring up that conversation, or is that coming from yourselves saying that have you thought about this?
00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:44.159
Yeah, um that that's generally coming from ourselves now, that knowledge within the marketplace, that ever-changing innovation in in the power where you know I rely on EDF in the works that I do within EDF, in the innovation team within EDF, you know, we we are very reliant on those kind of innovations coming into the marketplace to help us understand how we can better control the built environment.
00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:50.399
So taking those innovations in there, and innovation isn't always around a big box being put into a building.
00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:56.480
This is around smart control and how we operate better, and I suppose really links back to the change of behaviour again.
00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:02.399
Well, there's also there's been classic things like time of use, you just shift it and get get get some payback on that.
00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:14.000
But I think there's clever things where you maybe the whole of Tesco's trims five percent off its refrigeration, it's a huge uh come down, and you know what I mean, but a very subtle change.
00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:18.080
Huge loads, yeah, huge loads across the whole of the UK.
00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:21.600
So, you know, a great one there within the retail sector.
00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:36.159
You start to add up the amount of assets they've got in there that we could remotely control or remotely get into to be lean and and and affect change that the national grid needs very quickly, then yeah, there's a huge piece to be looked at across that.
00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:48.960
There's a lot of hype around AI, and is the industry actually ready for it?
00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.200
And what difference is it going to make?
00:12:51.600 --> 00:13:08.080
I believe, and if I link this into building management control again, it seems like I'm just all around BMS control, but uh there's a lot of AI around automating control within building management systems, but ultimately we've we've got such a change in marketplace in there.
00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:12.879
Poor data in generally means poor AI or poor data out.
00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:20.399
So there's still that human element that needs to be linked into AI, giving opportunity for improvement in there.
00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.320
So it still needs a human element in there, but there is so much again.
00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:25.919
I think are we ready for it?
00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:44.080
No, I don't think we are, because we across the whole of the UK, maybe not the whole of the UK, but my perception across the last 15-20 years within energy and FM is that I don't think we've got the data to be able to allow AI to do what it needs to do, and that is a critical part of where I want to be at.
00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:48.720
We need to manage data better, and that's that again, that bottom-up approach, get our data right.
00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:53.840
Well, that was one of my follow-up questions was does AI solve problems, or does it simply expose poor quality data?
00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:55.600
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:58.559
Exposes seriously poor quality data.
00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:05.679
Um, you know, I'm not a fan of submetering something for the sake of it, it costs money to to put in lots of submetering.
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:12.480
Uh, and unless you're going to use that data, then really I I I do question the so what so what are you going to do with it?
00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:16.639
But it's certainly beginning to expose uh the data side of things.
00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:27.840
If we're going to start to smartly control assets or allow AI to give us the ability to control assets, and generally we're going to need asset level data, and I don't think that's in the field at present.
00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:32.399
I mean, how much of the challenge is driven by aging buildings, retrofit complexity?
00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.639
Because that's most of the buildings are already here that will be the ones that need to be effective.
00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:37.200
Absolutely.
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:44.000
Look, well, I think we're in a position where um retrofit is certainly the key enabler to all this.
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:46.320
I think we approach 2030.
00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:54.879
I think in 2050, which lots of people have got their ESG targets set to, we're still going to have the same buildings stood up in 2050.
00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:55.519
Absolutely, yeah.
00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:56.240
Absolutely.
00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:10.639
Yeah, the retrofit side of it is in there, and again, mentioned a little earlier, we've got aged assets in buildings that we we can't control with smart control, or we've got newer assets in there with aged building controls in there.
00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:17.679
So again, that knowledge, that understanding of how we how we do that and those behaviours to be able to do that are significant.
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:23.440
If we were recorded this podcast again in five years, what do you think would have changed the most?
00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:24.720
Think or hope.
00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:25.759
Yeah, hope.
00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:38.399
I hope that we are in certainly in more of a position to understand our data and understand where we can seriously affect change because resource is is at a premium.
00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.120
We struggle with engineers within the UK.
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:51.440
We certainly, and I know this as a recruiting senior leader, that it's difficult to get energy people in or sustainability people into practice.
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:56.320
So I hope knowledge and resource is is significantly improved.
00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:10.559
I hope that we are investing more into our younger generation around knowledge of infrastructure, and then we can be really lean in where we can seriously affect the decarbonisation, the electrify routes that we want to go down.
00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:19.200
So and and the fact that let's not move, let's not shy away from innovation is coming and the AI world is coming, but without that, I don't think we'll we'll step forward.
00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:20.799
So that's where I really hope we're at.
00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:29.759
If an organisation were to give you access to one building tomorrow morning and asked you to save money within the next 90 days, not five years, what would you do first?
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:33.200
Would it be all behaviour as we've mentioned, or are there other things?
00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:43.759
Yeah, firstly, is to understand a baseline, again, it's going to sound like I'm a broken record with data, but understand again, understand what their data is, what their data sets are, their building usage.
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:47.919
So there's a lot of sort of what would be a request for information.
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:49.360
So how does their building operate?
00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:50.720
Well, what would we do first?
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:52.559
Absolutely, the the that bottom up.
00:16:52.639 --> 00:17:08.880
I I call it a kick-the-tire survey, not investment grade surveys where we bring in lots of supply chains for feasibility studies, etc., but really get into the nuts and bolts of the lower users of the building, you know, who's in first, who's out last, and start to really affect those behaviours.
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:20.400
And if we can get that optimization removed or the waste removed through optimization, then we really start to look into the strategic roadmaps and strategy of capital expenditure.
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:22.240
So yeah, getting into buildings.
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:23.519
I like getting into buildings.
00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:28.640
I really like getting into plant rooms uh and understanding what's in there and how things are being used.
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:33.759
What advice would you give an organization that's just beginning its decarbonisation journey?
00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:39.599
Establish a clear data set and understand its current performance.
00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:47.839
But I think when you're going to start a journey like this, you need to understand what metric you're going to use to drive performance improvements.
00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:54.720
You know, there's the weather data building users, capital expenditure.
00:17:54.880 --> 00:18:02.799
There are many metrics out there, uh, and we shouldn't just use one, multiple metrics to to begin to track performance in there.
00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:12.960
Um, but ultimately uh develop that baseline, um, identify quick win, optimize opportunities in there, create and understand assets.
00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.000
I think I've you know I probably should have mentioned this a few times more in there.
00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:20.720
Understand the assets in your building, their age, their life of what they've been using there.
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:29.119
And and again, I think when we look at asset registers in there, I don't think they're they're flourished in in the way that we really need them, uh, to understand what can replace them.
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.839
And then embed accountability, roles and responsibility in there.
00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:44.799
Sustainability managers and energy managers across the UK at the moment are are generally singular within within organisations or or or few and far between supporting mechanisms.
00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:53.200
So embedding that accountability in there and linking into senior leaders, getting it written into strategy, process and procedures.
00:18:53.279 --> 00:19:01.680
So you're almost at a position there where you you could produce a delivery pipeline, an opportunity for investment over the next few years.
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:06.480
Obviously, over this discussion, it's highlighted that data is key.
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:15.039
Is it that they're not measuring the data or that they've got loads of data and they're not gathering it into a single repository where it's become useful?
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:36.799
Experience of of both, if I'm being honest, there's generally data out there, supplier data isn't always easy to come by uh or to understand, but there there are so many uh areas where it's just invoice data, so time and resource to understand the invoice data, the collation of data into a meaningful report.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:43.839
And we all like a pretty picture, we all like graphics in there because that makes you know better than text reading in there.
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:51.119
So ultimately, the data's just generally not collated into a into a reportable format or an auditable format.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:53.119
So there's lots of data out there.
00:19:53.440 --> 00:20:01.359
When we start talking around the next level of granular data down from supplier data, that's probably the piece that's missing the most.
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:06.880
We're all we've all got our supplier data, we just don't collate it into areas uh of use.
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.720
It's the next level down granular data that we're really after.
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.039
That's probably the bit that's missing the most.
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:16.480
What's the biggest myth around building decarbonisation?
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:19.200
Biggest myth.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:27.839
I think we we're we're probably now in a position where it's expensive on costs for decarbonisation.
00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:51.519
So removal of a fossil fuel gas boiler uh and let's say we've put in a modulating electric boiler or a or a heat pump, ultimately the uh the energy cost is is is up, you know, uh I'll broadly say seven to nine p for for gas, six p for gas, and uh twenty odd pence for electricity, it's it's more expensive to do that.
00:20:51.759 --> 00:21:02.079
But that's not so much of a myth, but ultimately I think when we we we talked earlier that the the trade-off between capital investment and return on investment has to sort of be overseen.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:05.599
It can't just be that it's look they're not gonna return quickly.
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:10.079
So ultimately, I think that the myth is that that's just not a viable solution.
00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:25.359
But when you think about life cycle of assets, um the the long-term strategy in there, what the energy cost is going to be in the future, and building that resilience for you as a building user, building owner, bill payer, that's the piece that I think we need to get over.
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:31.519
It's almost like you get told, Oh, that sounds risky, but but you forget the idea that staying still is risky.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:33.359
There's a risk attached to doing nothing.
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:34.400
For sure, for sure.
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:36.880
And if you stay still, you're gonna get left behind.
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:45.200
So um, I don't think there's a again, there's not a one solution fits all, but we need to be ready to to move our road map.
00:21:45.279 --> 00:22:01.119
Uh, it's not a straight road, but as long as we get smarter, building ready, uh, building smart, whichever phrase you want to use within your industry, but we've got to be ready for change and working around how that sort of sits into the way that we operate buildings is in there.
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:07.279
So, yeah, the myth is probably more around the removal of our thoughts around return on investment and capital spend.
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.440
And finally, what's the one thing you wish more organizations understood?
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:17.599
I think just the expertise and and support that they can get out in the industry and and the knowledge that's out there.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:23.599
I think we'll probably talk funding opportunities out there and how they they will sit um in there.
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:30.160
But I just wish that they had a little bit more exposure to to the expertise within within the environment.
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:39.920
You know, that is part of my job within Del Kia to ensure that our clients have got the knowledge and the building users have got the knowledge of what what is the art of the possible out there.
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:48.559
It's clearly not um, you know, it's clearly not out and about ready to just pick up magazines and and videos and things that that's not out there.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:55.440
So I hope and I wish that you know we we move into supporting them a little bit more in that in that part of the world.
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:56.799
Thank you so much, Lewis.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:58.640
That's been really interesting talking to you.
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.279
It's been an absolute pleasure to be here, really enjoyed that.
00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:20.400
If anybody needs any more information through Delcir or EDF, visit the websites edf.com forward slash business wholesale or see us at LinkedIn at EDF Business Wholesale or Delkeir at delkear.co.uk or at Delkeiruk on LinkedIn, and please reach out.
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:24.240
And if you want the latest news and views, go to the energist.com.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:25.519
Thank you.
