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Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
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I'm your host, Mari Riesberg.
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Over the past several years, I've combined my degrees in acting and somatic psychology to share my sustaining creativity techniques with performers.
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And now I've decided to share it with a bigger audience that includes you.
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I believe we are all creative, and this podcast is all about that.
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I'll be interviewing people from all backgrounds, ages, and creativity experiences to share just how creative we all are.
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Today I'll be chatting with Perry Atwall, author and lecturer with Souter School of Business at the University of British Columbia.
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Please enjoy Perry Atwall.
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Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
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Today I'm chatting with Perry Atwall, author.
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I can't wait to dive into creativity with you.
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Welcome to the podcast.
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Thank you very much, Marie.
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I am so thrilled that you're joining me today to talk about creativity.
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But before we get there, why don't you let our listeners know a little bit more about who you are and what it is you do?
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Yeah, so I'm a full-time lecturer at the uh Sorta School of Business at the University of British Columbia.
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So I've been doing this for the last uh almost 20 years.
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Um I'm a teacher.
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I like to think of myself as a teacher.
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Um I am also a recent author, and uh that's what we're gonna talk a little bit about today.
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Um in my previous career, I was in investment banking uh many, many years ago.
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And so um, yeah, I've worked in a few different industries, a few different um types of job, and uh I've settled on something which I really, really enjoy.
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Um, I would love to say that, you know, we always teach, do something you enjoy, and you never have to work a day in your life.
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Um, but and I feel very lucky and very blessed to actually find something which I would do for free.
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I love it.
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That's so amazing.
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It's I think hard, harder and harder to find those opportunities to get paid and do what you love and have them be the same thing.
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So what a treat that you have found that for yourself.
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Absolutely.
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Thank you.
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So, in terms of kind of the journey that got you into lecturing and writing and where did that start?
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Have you always been a writer, or how did it turn into a book?
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Yeah, this uh that's a great question.
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I would love to say that it was all planned.
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It was all planned, and I had this great, you know, story and so, but none of it was, none of it was.
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I would love to say it was, but it wasn't.
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Uh it really started my my my um my desire to write a book.
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Uh it started a number of years ago when I I was on a plane and I was flying from Seattle to uh Washington, D.C.
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And I was sitting next to someone who just seemed to be right bang on on everything they said.
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Whatever they said was really quite deep and it resonated.
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It seemed to be almost a different level.
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And I thought to myself, wow, this is incredible.
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And I thought that, you know, occasionally in life we come across some great bits of information, you know, whether it's a great saying that really resonates, whether it's a great bit of advice that, you know, works well.
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And we hear these things and we often forget them.
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We often forget them.
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And it's only when we hear them again, three or four years later, that we realize, oh yeah, that's really important.
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So my initial feeling was to uh write these things down.
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So whenever you come across something that's really deep, that really is worth knowing or remembering, write it down so you don't forget.
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And so I started documenting.
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And my original plan was that I'm gonna, and this is before I had kids or I was married.
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My original plan was that I'm gonna give this to my grandkids and say, this is what grandpa learned in his life.
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Okay.
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And I thought, you know, that was my sort of long-term target there.
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But it grew and grew.
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It eventually got to 30 pages, 50 pages, 100 pages.
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I started organizing it into different sections, so love and relationships, and friends and family, and travel and work, and uh spirit uh religion and spirituality and so on.
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So I split it up into different areas and I started giving talks on this.
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And so I taught leadership, and uh, I would give this as a as a final um uh a final class in terms of you know how to live your life and wisdom in general.
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And people were saying to me, look, why are you not putting this out there?
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This was this was better than all the other classes, um, which is a little bit worrying for me because it makes me wonder what was I doing in the other classes.
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But it's it I I thought, well, you know, this is an opportunity.
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And so it kept on growing, kept on growing, and eventually we get to the stage now where I've just published um uh this this first book.
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But I I would I would love to say it was planned, but really it was more opportunity uh meeting with something that I really resonated deeply with me.
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And I think when it comes to those situations, it's magic when it happens, it feels like almost synchronicity, but it's um I think you just need to listen.
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You just need to listen out for these opportunities.
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In the same way, going back to your original question, I would love to say I planned to be a teacher, but I didn't.
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And I had a few opportunities to become a teacher, but I didn't take them up.
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And I think it's almost as if God knocks on your door um a number of times until you figure it out and you do what you're meant to do.
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Absolutely.
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I mean, what an incredible journey to start on a plane and have it transform into the book it is today.
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I'm curious, just in terms of creativity, when you think of creativity, what does it mean to you to be creative?
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Okay, that's that's a great question.
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What is creativity?
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You know, especially in the world today where there's so much duplication and and so on, how what does it mean to actually be creative?
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Um, I think firstly, it's really hard.
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It is really hard.
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Try putting a bunch of people together in a room and say, hey, be creative.
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You know, come up with some new ideas which no one has ever come up with before.
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It is not easy, it is not easy.
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What I like to think about uh with just the way I my mind works with creativity, is it's that you often need some kind of stimulus.
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Uh, you need some motivation to want to come up with something new, but you need some building blocks.
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Okay, and that's what I like to look at.
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So when I think about when when I want people to be creative, I will typically feed them a few different sources of information, a few different ideas, just to get them thinking, just to get them thinking, getting into the mindset and so on.
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I think it's really difficult to come up with something that is brand new that no one has ever thought of before.
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But what I think happens a lot more is that there's this incremental, sort of incremental innovation, incremental creativity, where it's not entirely new, but it is a different version of what we've seen before.
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So we may see this uh a particular good which works in one country and it's tweaked slightly to work in another country.
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It's not creative, it's not brand new, but there was a little bit of creativity in tweaking the product for a different market.
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Um, so I think there's a lot more of that that goes on.
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I think there's it's very hard to be genuinely creative where you are coming up with something brand new.
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I think there's only personally from what I see, there's only a few people like that around us.
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And it's very obvious when you see those people, okay?
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These are those great artists that kind of change the world around us and change the way we think about things.
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But the majority of the world is is actually not so much in that creativity, it's more so incremental innovation, um, which is why when we do see someone who is truly creative, it blows us away.
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It blows us away because it's just something that's just not the norm for most of us.
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Um, I I do think that it starts a lot when you're younger.
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I think a lot of it comes down to curiosity.
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It's just curiosity.
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Why do we do things this way?
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Why does that work that way?
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Why don't we do something different?
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I think curiosity is really the the precursor uh to creativity.
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I absolutely agree.
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And just hearing you talk about kind of the big moments of creativity, world transformational creativity pieces versus the incremental kind of everyday creativity we're also kind of chugging along in.
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I appreciate that distinction.
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You bring up curiosity.
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I I am curious.
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What are you curious about these days in your life?
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Where is your curiosity leading you?
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Oh, that's uh that's a great question.
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Where's my curious?
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And I do believe once you stop being curious, you you pretty much start dying.
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Pretty much start dying.
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Um, and so I I think there's so much around to be curious on.
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What I'm curious on most um now, and I have been for the last few years, I are my kids.
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Are my kids?
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Um, they are uh they are very inspirational, and they they really blow me away in terms of some of their comments and their forthrightness, their their you know, um their clarity, um, their their purity almost in a way, they're as yet untainted um by you know most of civilization.
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And and so I to me that's fascinating.
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And it's fascinating to be how do you become a better parent?
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I think everyone's got ideas and everyone seems to be an expert on it, but in reality, everyone's different.
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And so you need different parenting.
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Um, but that's what I'm really fascinated on.
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I I spend a lot of my time reading about parenting and what are the great ideas that other people have tried, um, because we're all trying to figure it out.
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Um and uh but yeah, that that's something which I'm very curious on.
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Um, I've always been very curious on why uh what motivates other people and what drives people and what makes the difference, you know, between someone who's average and someone who ends up being remarkable.
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Um, there's some very clear patterns.
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And so I'm fascinated by those as well.
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But as a general hobby, I think parenting is my biggest fascination right now.
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I love that your children bring that quality.
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It keeps you young and it keeps you creative.
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I can only imagine how creative you have to be parenting children.
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Yeah.
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And I you spoke about um the the other piece of like what motivates people, and you said there's some common things or themes that you have discovered.
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What are some of those themes that motivates people or drives people?
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And I guess I'm curious how that relates to creativity.
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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I I think um when it comes to motivation, I I think the key part is to differentiate between intrinsic and extrinsic.
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Uh, extrinsic, anything that starts from without outside of you, pay, a bonus, you know, outside, um praise and so on.
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These are all extrinsic motivators.
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However, the intrinsic motivators that people have, the desire within, the the belief you want to do something because you want to prove that you can do it, that um you have an internal uh desire to do something, to prove that you can that that it's it's the right thing or it's the right way forward.
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Um, you know, these are are much, much more powerful, the intrinsic motivators.
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In fact, as a manager, I would say the first task of any manager is to figure out the intrinsic motivation for all their stuff.
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Because when you have to motivate them, you need to know what to go for.
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Is it money?
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Is it you know making a difference and so on?
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What really drives people?
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Um, what I find as a common uh element of people who are very motivated, regardless of the field that they're in, they have this inner drive to really want to make a difference.
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They want to make a difference in the world around them.
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I would say personally, this is the biggest reason why I got out of investment banking.
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Okay.
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Um I was an investment bank, and the problem with that is that you can spend all day trying to figure something out and you can't figure it out.
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And you're on the way home, you think to yourself, what was the purpose of that day?
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Well, you know, maybe I can think of a million reasons how not to do something, you know, if I want to be positive.
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But I I just had a lot of those days, maybe because I wasn't very bright and you know, I couldn't figure things out, but also just because it's just that that kind of field whereby, you know, there's there's issues, you try to figure them out, you may be able to figure them out, you may not, and it just feels a little bit meaningless.
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You know, after a while, it feels a bit meaningless.
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With teaching, I can say confidently, every day, every day on the way home, I can think of some people who are nodding their heads or a light bulb that went off in their heads, and it makes the world it makes the day worthwhile.
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I think to myself, you know what?
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I I think I made a difference today.
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I think I made a difference.
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I think I've helped a few people.
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I think I, you know, who knows where these ripples are going to end up, but I think I did something today, and I and I'm really I'm happy about that.
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I'm proud about that.
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And I think that really helps motivate you because you're making a difference.
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And in essence, because you're making a difference, you would do it for free.
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Absolutely, yes.
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I appreciate the those questions that you asked yourself post-investment banking day versus post-lecturer day and how different they were and how how it really connects to you as a person and that drive and motivation.
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So absolutely.
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And and just to finish off, I know the last part of your question was how does this link to creativity?
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Well, to me, it's really hard to be creative if you're not motivated.
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You're not motivated.
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Why am I gonna come up with a new solution or a new way of thinking and so on when I don't really care about the topic itself?
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Um, so first of all, I I want to be motivated.
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I want to be motivated, I want it, I want to see how getting a better solution is gonna help people, it's gonna make lives easier and so on.
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I have to know the bigger picture.
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If I don't feel that, then sure, I can go through the motions, but I'm not likely, I'm likely to shoot down a lot of these ideas.
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What I also find is that people who are highly motivated, they typically have a lot of energy.
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Okay, they have a lot of energy, and that energy is infectious, it's infectious.
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So people around you come up with more ideas.
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What also happens because of the energy, you tend to be a little bit more optimistic.
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Okay, optimistic.
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When you're down on energy, you tend to be more pessimistic.
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You see all the negatives and the bad and so on.
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But when you're high on energy, you feel fantastic, you feel the good things, the cup is always half full, and so on.
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And I think that makes a big difference because in being creative, you not only have to, you know, come up with ideas, but you also are gonna have a lot of failures.
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Okay.
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You're gonna have a lot of ideas which go nowhere.
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And it's pretty hard to stay motivated if you're uh if you're low on energy, you get pessimistic, and you're gonna start shooting down ideas before you even uh explore them properly.
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You're gonna get negative, you're gonna get pessimistic.
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That's never gonna work.
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It's because you're low on energy.
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If you're high on energy, you're more likely to think, well, okay, well, you know, I can see a lot of problems there, but how can we make it work?
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It changes your attitude, changes people around you.
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Absolutely.
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I love that reminder of energy use and positive and correlating that with high energy and just how infectious high energy can be if other people are struggling.
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It tends to lift them up.
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I want to hear more about this book that you have out in the world.
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Can you tell us the name and a little bit about it?
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Yeah, the book is uh Wisdom for Life, Wisdom for Life, and uh it's a nonfiction book um uh with about six chapters, all on the different parts of your life uh where you can build wisdom.
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Um, so we've got um uh friends and family as one chapter, we've got travel and learning, uh spirituality and faith, um uh uh the um uh love and relationships and so on.
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So, really all the different parts of your life.
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Uh the book itself is divided uh into those different chapters, as well as one foundational chapter on uh timeless wisdom, you know, wisdom which really traverses all the different areas.
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Um so, as an example, one thing is gratitude.
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Is gratitude.
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If you want to be wise in any part of your life, uh I think it's it's very important to be grateful for what you have.
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Um, and so uh that's the way the book is organized.
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Every chapter is designed to be very practical.
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Very practical.
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I think there's lots of books out there which you know sort of give you advice or they uh have great quotes or you know, things which have come up before, and that's great.
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But I think this book goes a lot further.
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Um, firstly, because it's uh it gives you a lot of my personal experiences.
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I don't want to just give you, I don't want to re-uh, you know, regurgitate something that someone else has said.
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I want to bring some life to it and tell you, you know, go bring bring some color and my own experience.
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So that's part of it.
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The other part of it, every chapter ends with reflection and indeed a number of exercises.
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Because to me, pursuing wisdom is is not something which you just kind of sit back and hope it all works out and you just age and hope experience gives you what you want.
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Um, to me, it can be very practical, it can be very active.
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Um, and there's a lot of things you can do right now and every day and so on, which are gonna help you become more wise.
00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:08.960
So I like to think of it more as a practical book, um, as opposed to just uh excerpts of wisdom.
00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:09.920
I love that.
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.079
Thank you for breaking that down.
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:19.200
My as you were talking it, just I started thinking, you know, what is the intersection of wisdom and creativity?
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:20.559
And is there one?
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:24.480
And if it if there were one, what what do you think it would be?
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:26.319
Oh, okay, that's really good.
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.359
Uh how how does wisdom relate to creativity?
00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:47.599
I think to be creative, to be truly creative and come up with something that truly other people haven't come up with before, you not only need a certain amount of information to draw upon, the sources, so to speak, um, but you also need a certain level of clarity of mind.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:19:04.000
Uh, and whether that's being relaxed, uh, whether it's being content, whether it's uh there's something about where you just slow down a little bit and see the bigger picture for what it is, as opposed to getting too caught up in the details.
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:12.000
And we often say, you know, you you can't see the wood for the trees, and because we're often just so into whatever we're doing, um, we just don't take that step back.
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:27.359
And to me, when you are uh practicing wisdom, taking that step back and taking that deep breath and trying to think about how this all links together uh and being in that relaxed state of mind to do that linking uh is key.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:36.480
And so I think it's it's not impossible, but it's harder to be creative when you are uh not as wise.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:36.960
Okay.
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.720
You can still do it, you can still do it, but it's just that much more difficult.
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:44.000
And I think getting into that frame of mind is absolutely key.
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:48.880
Um, I in the book I talk a lot about meditation, but not meditation directly.
00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:50.400
To me, meditation is fantastic.
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:51.519
I mean, it's it's beautiful.
00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:53.519
The only problem is it's so difficult to do.
00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:54.480
It's so difficult.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.920
Um, most you know, most people do five seconds and then they're struggling.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:03.839
Um, but I I talk about alternative ways to get to the same frame of mind, but in a much easier way.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.319
Because if you try to empty your mind, good luck.
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:07.039
Good luck.
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:11.119
Um, but it's uh that there are other ways of getting to the same to the same destination.
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:12.000
Absolutely.
00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:18.400
Well, thank you for off the cuff telling me your thoughts on the intersection of wisdom and creativity.
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:20.880
This has been such a wonderful conversation.
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:22.559
I have one last question.
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:26.079
What does it feel like in your body to be creative?
00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:29.839
Okay, what does it feel like to be creative?
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:31.920
I think it feels inspiring.
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:35.119
I think you know when you've been creative.
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:40.720
Uh I personally I get a kind of jolt of I adrenaline, I guess it is.
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:46.240
Is it adrenaline where it's almost as if there's something a little bit deeper has just happened.
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:48.240
Okay, and you can't quite explain it.
00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:58.319
You can't say exactly what it was, but it that jolt of adrenaline just made you feel different, it made you feel positive, only for a fleeting moment, but it's very clear.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:08.400
I almost feel it as if I've almost glimpsed a part of the future, and it it just feels like there's something very special has just happened.
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:12.400
Um and I think that's it's it's a fantastic feeling.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.079
It's a fantastic feeling.
00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:16.720
It's uh inspiring.
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:26.799
You want to feel it again, but it it in in a very I don't know how to how to put it, it's it's um it's almost uh a transcendent feeling.
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:32.880
I think that's probably the best way, because it doesn't really relate directly to any of the other kind of feelings we have on a daily basis.
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:36.559
It's more so just a deep feeling that something right has just happened.
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:44.160
Um, I I as an analogy, uh, when you help someone without a single thought of return, okay.
00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:48.480
Let's say you help an old person cross a street and you don't want anything in return.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:50.880
You just do it for the for the sake of doing it.
00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:52.079
You just feel good.
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:53.119
You just feel good.
00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:54.400
Not for any particular reason.
00:21:54.480 --> 00:22:01.039
You're not gonna get it or you're not gonna get anything back in return, but you just feel like you did something good and you did something right.
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:05.599
I think it's that similar feeling, but amplified, but amplified.
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:06.880
And I love it.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.240
I absolutely love that feeling when you do feel you've come up with something new.
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:21.039
Um and I think it's just very important to be surrounded by others who kind of lift you up in that way and they give you that kind of energy rather than people who shoot you down um and do the opposite.
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:22.079
Absolutely.
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:25.519
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to join me here.
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:31.680
If people want to learn more about your book, the work that you do in the world, how could they get in touch with you and find you?
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:33.519
Yeah, periatwall.com.
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:34.640
Perry atwell.com.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:41.200
Uh on that you'll have all the links to my book and the details and so on and um all my future uh uh ideas.
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:41.839
Perfect.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.039
Well, I will put links in show notes so people have very easy access.
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:48.079
And thank you, Perry, so much for taking the time to join me.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:50.880
This has been such a delightful conversation.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:52.079
Uh, you're very welcome.
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:52.640
You're very welcome.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:23:07.119
The pleasure was all my Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:10.960
We'd love to keep in touch, so follow us on Facebook and Instagram.
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:13.519
We are at Sustaining Creativity.
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:20.319
Make sure to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, tag your friends and family so they can listen too.
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:24.079
We'd love to hear from you, so leave your reviews, comments, and questions.
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:30.960
Check out our website, sustainingcreativity.com, for upcoming offerings and creativity coaching.
00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:33.599
Tune in Tuesdays for our next episode.
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.680
And remember, with creativity, anything's possible.
00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:22.399
Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:24.079
I'm your host, Mari Riesberg.
00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:30.719
Over the past several years, I've combined my degrees in acting and somatic psychology to share my sustaining creativity techniques with performers.
00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:34.240
And now I've decided to share it with a bigger audience that includes you.
00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:38.880
I believe we are all creative, and this podcast is all about that.
00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:45.679
I'll be interviewing people from all backgrounds, ages, and creativity experiences to share just how creative we all are.
00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:53.119
Today I'll be chatting with Perry Atwall, author and lecturer with Souter School of Business at the University of British Columbia.
00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:55.679
Please enjoy Perry Atwall.
00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:10.480
Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:13.599
Today I'm chatting with Perry Atwall, author.
00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:17.359
I can't wait to dive into creativity with you.
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Welcome to the podcast.
00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:20.719
Thank you very much, Marie.
00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:25.359
I am so thrilled that you're joining me today to talk about creativity.
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But before we get there, why don't you let our listeners know a little bit more about who you are and what it is you do?
00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:38.719
Yeah, so I'm a full-time lecturer at the uh Sorta School of Business at the University of British Columbia.
00:01:39.359 --> 00:01:42.640
So I've been doing this for the last uh almost 20 years.
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Um I'm a teacher.
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I like to think of myself as a teacher.
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Um I am also a recent author, and uh that's what we're gonna talk a little bit about today.
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Um in my previous career, I was in investment banking uh many, many years ago.
00:01:56.159 --> 00:02:05.120
And so um, yeah, I've worked in a few different industries, a few different um types of job, and uh I've settled on something which I really, really enjoy.
00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:11.360
Um, I would love to say that, you know, we always teach, do something you enjoy, and you never have to work a day in your life.
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Um, but and I feel very lucky and very blessed to actually find something which I would do for free.
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I love it.
00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:18.560
That's so amazing.
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It's I think hard, harder and harder to find those opportunities to get paid and do what you love and have them be the same thing.
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So what a treat that you have found that for yourself.
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Absolutely.
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Thank you.
00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:45.439
So, in terms of kind of the journey that got you into lecturing and writing and where did that start?
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Have you always been a writer, or how did it turn into a book?
00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:51.520
Yeah, this uh that's a great question.
00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:54.159
I would love to say that it was all planned.
00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:59.599
It was all planned, and I had this great, you know, story and so, but none of it was, none of it was.
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I would love to say it was, but it wasn't.
00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:06.080
Uh it really started my my my um my desire to write a book.
00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:13.280
Uh it started a number of years ago when I I was on a plane and I was flying from Seattle to uh Washington, D.C.
00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:19.840
And I was sitting next to someone who just seemed to be right bang on on everything they said.
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Whatever they said was really quite deep and it resonated.
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It seemed to be almost a different level.
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And I thought to myself, wow, this is incredible.
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And I thought that, you know, occasionally in life we come across some great bits of information, you know, whether it's a great saying that really resonates, whether it's a great bit of advice that, you know, works well.
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And we hear these things and we often forget them.
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We often forget them.
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And it's only when we hear them again, three or four years later, that we realize, oh yeah, that's really important.
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So my initial feeling was to uh write these things down.
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So whenever you come across something that's really deep, that really is worth knowing or remembering, write it down so you don't forget.
00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:05.919
And so I started documenting.
00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:11.439
And my original plan was that I'm gonna, and this is before I had kids or I was married.
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My original plan was that I'm gonna give this to my grandkids and say, this is what grandpa learned in his life.
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Okay.
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And I thought, you know, that was my sort of long-term target there.
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But it grew and grew.
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It eventually got to 30 pages, 50 pages, 100 pages.
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I started organizing it into different sections, so love and relationships, and friends and family, and travel and work, and uh spirit uh religion and spirituality and so on.
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So I split it up into different areas and I started giving talks on this.
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And so I taught leadership, and uh, I would give this as a as a final um uh a final class in terms of you know how to live your life and wisdom in general.
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And people were saying to me, look, why are you not putting this out there?
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This was this was better than all the other classes, um, which is a little bit worrying for me because it makes me wonder what was I doing in the other classes.
00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:07.040
But it's it I I thought, well, you know, this is an opportunity.
00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:14.560
And so it kept on growing, kept on growing, and eventually we get to the stage now where I've just published um uh this this first book.
00:05:14.639 --> 00:05:23.040
But I I would I would love to say it was planned, but really it was more opportunity uh meeting with something that I really resonated deeply with me.
00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:30.319
And I think when it comes to those situations, it's magic when it happens, it feels like almost synchronicity, but it's um I think you just need to listen.
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You just need to listen out for these opportunities.
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In the same way, going back to your original question, I would love to say I planned to be a teacher, but I didn't.
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And I had a few opportunities to become a teacher, but I didn't take them up.
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And I think it's almost as if God knocks on your door um a number of times until you figure it out and you do what you're meant to do.
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Absolutely.
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I mean, what an incredible journey to start on a plane and have it transform into the book it is today.
00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:07.519
I'm curious, just in terms of creativity, when you think of creativity, what does it mean to you to be creative?
00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:10.480
Okay, that's that's a great question.
00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:11.680
What is creativity?
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You know, especially in the world today where there's so much duplication and and so on, how what does it mean to actually be creative?
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Um, I think firstly, it's really hard.
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It is really hard.
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Try putting a bunch of people together in a room and say, hey, be creative.
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You know, come up with some new ideas which no one has ever come up with before.
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It is not easy, it is not easy.
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What I like to think about uh with just the way I my mind works with creativity, is it's that you often need some kind of stimulus.
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Uh, you need some motivation to want to come up with something new, but you need some building blocks.
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Okay, and that's what I like to look at.
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So when I think about when when I want people to be creative, I will typically feed them a few different sources of information, a few different ideas, just to get them thinking, just to get them thinking, getting into the mindset and so on.
00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:11.120
I think it's really difficult to come up with something that is brand new that no one has ever thought of before.
00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:23.439
But what I think happens a lot more is that there's this incremental, sort of incremental innovation, incremental creativity, where it's not entirely new, but it is a different version of what we've seen before.
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So we may see this uh a particular good which works in one country and it's tweaked slightly to work in another country.
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It's not creative, it's not brand new, but there was a little bit of creativity in tweaking the product for a different market.
00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:42.160
Um, so I think there's a lot more of that that goes on.
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I think there's it's very hard to be genuinely creative where you are coming up with something brand new.
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I think there's only personally from what I see, there's only a few people like that around us.
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And it's very obvious when you see those people, okay?
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These are those great artists that kind of change the world around us and change the way we think about things.
00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:12.399
But the majority of the world is is actually not so much in that creativity, it's more so incremental innovation, um, which is why when we do see someone who is truly creative, it blows us away.
00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:16.639
It blows us away because it's just something that's just not the norm for most of us.
00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:20.399
Um, I I do think that it starts a lot when you're younger.
00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:22.879
I think a lot of it comes down to curiosity.
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It's just curiosity.
00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:26.000
Why do we do things this way?
00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:27.279
Why does that work that way?
00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:28.639
Why don't we do something different?
00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:33.200
I think curiosity is really the the precursor uh to creativity.
00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:35.279
I absolutely agree.
00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:51.120
And just hearing you talk about kind of the big moments of creativity, world transformational creativity pieces versus the incremental kind of everyday creativity we're also kind of chugging along in.
00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:53.279
I appreciate that distinction.
00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:55.279
You bring up curiosity.
00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:57.200
I I am curious.
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What are you curious about these days in your life?
00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:02.639
Where is your curiosity leading you?
00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:04.559
Oh, that's uh that's a great question.
00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:05.519
Where's my curious?
00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:08.879
And I do believe once you stop being curious, you you pretty much start dying.
00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:10.159
Pretty much start dying.
00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:13.919
Um, and so I I think there's so much around to be curious on.
00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:19.919
What I'm curious on most um now, and I have been for the last few years, I are my kids.
00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:20.960
Are my kids?
00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:40.320
Um, they are uh they are very inspirational, and they they really blow me away in terms of some of their comments and their forthrightness, their their you know, um their clarity, um, their their purity almost in a way, they're as yet untainted um by you know most of civilization.
00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:42.960
And and so I to me that's fascinating.
00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:46.480
And it's fascinating to be how do you become a better parent?
00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:51.600
I think everyone's got ideas and everyone seems to be an expert on it, but in reality, everyone's different.
00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:53.440
And so you need different parenting.
00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:55.519
Um, but that's what I'm really fascinated on.
00:09:55.600 --> 00:10:03.200
I I spend a lot of my time reading about parenting and what are the great ideas that other people have tried, um, because we're all trying to figure it out.
00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:07.200
Um and uh but yeah, that that's something which I'm very curious on.
00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:19.279
Um, I've always been very curious on why uh what motivates other people and what drives people and what makes the difference, you know, between someone who's average and someone who ends up being remarkable.
00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:21.360
Um, there's some very clear patterns.
00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:23.600
And so I'm fascinated by those as well.
00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:28.080
But as a general hobby, I think parenting is my biggest fascination right now.
00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.840
I love that your children bring that quality.
00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:34.799
It keeps you young and it keeps you creative.
00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:39.200
I can only imagine how creative you have to be parenting children.
00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:41.039
Yeah.
00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:52.240
And I you spoke about um the the other piece of like what motivates people, and you said there's some common things or themes that you have discovered.
00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:57.279
What are some of those themes that motivates people or drives people?
00:10:57.679 --> 00:11:01.120
And I guess I'm curious how that relates to creativity.
00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:02.639
Yeah, that's a great question.
00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:10.879
I I think um when it comes to motivation, I I think the key part is to differentiate between intrinsic and extrinsic.
00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:20.240
Uh, extrinsic, anything that starts from without outside of you, pay, a bonus, you know, outside, um praise and so on.
00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:22.159
These are all extrinsic motivators.
00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:39.360
However, the intrinsic motivators that people have, the desire within, the the belief you want to do something because you want to prove that you can do it, that um you have an internal uh desire to do something, to prove that you can that that it's it's the right thing or it's the right way forward.
00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:44.399
Um, you know, these are are much, much more powerful, the intrinsic motivators.
00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:52.639
In fact, as a manager, I would say the first task of any manager is to figure out the intrinsic motivation for all their stuff.
00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:55.919
Because when you have to motivate them, you need to know what to go for.
00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:56.879
Is it money?
00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:59.519
Is it you know making a difference and so on?
00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:01.279
What really drives people?
00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:14.720
Um, what I find as a common uh element of people who are very motivated, regardless of the field that they're in, they have this inner drive to really want to make a difference.
00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:17.600
They want to make a difference in the world around them.
00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:23.279
I would say personally, this is the biggest reason why I got out of investment banking.
00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:23.519
Okay.
00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:31.919
Um I was an investment bank, and the problem with that is that you can spend all day trying to figure something out and you can't figure it out.
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:35.919
And you're on the way home, you think to yourself, what was the purpose of that day?
00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:41.519
Well, you know, maybe I can think of a million reasons how not to do something, you know, if I want to be positive.
00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:58.480
But I I just had a lot of those days, maybe because I wasn't very bright and you know, I couldn't figure things out, but also just because it's just that that kind of field whereby, you know, there's there's issues, you try to figure them out, you may be able to figure them out, you may not, and it just feels a little bit meaningless.
00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:00.799
You know, after a while, it feels a bit meaningless.
00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:15.919
With teaching, I can say confidently, every day, every day on the way home, I can think of some people who are nodding their heads or a light bulb that went off in their heads, and it makes the world it makes the day worthwhile.
00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:17.519
I think to myself, you know what?
00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:19.919
I I think I made a difference today.
00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:21.279
I think I made a difference.
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:23.039
I think I've helped a few people.
00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:30.240
I think I, you know, who knows where these ripples are going to end up, but I think I did something today, and I and I'm really I'm happy about that.
00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:31.360
I'm proud about that.
00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:35.279
And I think that really helps motivate you because you're making a difference.
00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:38.879
And in essence, because you're making a difference, you would do it for free.
00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:41.919
Absolutely, yes.
00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:59.440
I appreciate the those questions that you asked yourself post-investment banking day versus post-lecturer day and how different they were and how how it really connects to you as a person and that drive and motivation.
00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:00.480
So absolutely.
00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:05.039
And and just to finish off, I know the last part of your question was how does this link to creativity?
00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:10.240
Well, to me, it's really hard to be creative if you're not motivated.
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:11.360
You're not motivated.
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:17.759
Why am I gonna come up with a new solution or a new way of thinking and so on when I don't really care about the topic itself?
00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:20.720
Um, so first of all, I I want to be motivated.
00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:28.559
I want to be motivated, I want it, I want to see how getting a better solution is gonna help people, it's gonna make lives easier and so on.
00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:30.639
I have to know the bigger picture.
00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:37.919
If I don't feel that, then sure, I can go through the motions, but I'm not likely, I'm likely to shoot down a lot of these ideas.
00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:42.879
What I also find is that people who are highly motivated, they typically have a lot of energy.
00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:47.120
Okay, they have a lot of energy, and that energy is infectious, it's infectious.
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:49.600
So people around you come up with more ideas.
00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:55.279
What also happens because of the energy, you tend to be a little bit more optimistic.
00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:56.559
Okay, optimistic.
00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:59.440
When you're down on energy, you tend to be more pessimistic.
00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:01.679
You see all the negatives and the bad and so on.
00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:07.919
But when you're high on energy, you feel fantastic, you feel the good things, the cup is always half full, and so on.
00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:16.480
And I think that makes a big difference because in being creative, you not only have to, you know, come up with ideas, but you also are gonna have a lot of failures.
00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:16.879
Okay.
00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:19.120
You're gonna have a lot of ideas which go nowhere.
00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:30.320
And it's pretty hard to stay motivated if you're uh if you're low on energy, you get pessimistic, and you're gonna start shooting down ideas before you even uh explore them properly.
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:32.480
You're gonna get negative, you're gonna get pessimistic.
00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:33.600
That's never gonna work.
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:35.039
It's because you're low on energy.
00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:41.360
If you're high on energy, you're more likely to think, well, okay, well, you know, I can see a lot of problems there, but how can we make it work?
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.320
It changes your attitude, changes people around you.
00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:45.440
Absolutely.
00:15:45.759 --> 00:16:00.559
I love that reminder of energy use and positive and correlating that with high energy and just how infectious high energy can be if other people are struggling.
00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:02.480
It tends to lift them up.
00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:07.279
I want to hear more about this book that you have out in the world.
00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:10.080
Can you tell us the name and a little bit about it?
00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:22.559
Yeah, the book is uh Wisdom for Life, Wisdom for Life, and uh it's a nonfiction book um uh with about six chapters, all on the different parts of your life uh where you can build wisdom.
00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:35.600
Um, so we've got um uh friends and family as one chapter, we've got travel and learning, uh spirituality and faith, um uh uh the um uh love and relationships and so on.
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:38.000
So, really all the different parts of your life.
00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:49.279
Uh the book itself is divided uh into those different chapters, as well as one foundational chapter on uh timeless wisdom, you know, wisdom which really traverses all the different areas.
00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.480
Um so, as an example, one thing is gratitude.
00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:53.519
Is gratitude.
00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:59.360
If you want to be wise in any part of your life, uh I think it's it's very important to be grateful for what you have.
00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:02.559
Um, and so uh that's the way the book is organized.
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:07.119
Every chapter is designed to be very practical.
00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:08.160
Very practical.
00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:17.759
I think there's lots of books out there which you know sort of give you advice or they uh have great quotes or you know, things which have come up before, and that's great.
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:20.160
But I think this book goes a lot further.
00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:24.720
Um, firstly, because it's uh it gives you a lot of my personal experiences.
00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:30.160
I don't want to just give you, I don't want to re-uh, you know, regurgitate something that someone else has said.
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:35.119
I want to bring some life to it and tell you, you know, go bring bring some color and my own experience.
00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:36.000
So that's part of it.
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:42.079
The other part of it, every chapter ends with reflection and indeed a number of exercises.
00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:52.160
Because to me, pursuing wisdom is is not something which you just kind of sit back and hope it all works out and you just age and hope experience gives you what you want.
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:55.599
Um, to me, it can be very practical, it can be very active.
00:17:55.680 --> 00:18:01.599
Um, and there's a lot of things you can do right now and every day and so on, which are gonna help you become more wise.
00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:08.960
So I like to think of it more as a practical book, um, as opposed to just uh excerpts of wisdom.
00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:09.920
I love that.
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.079
Thank you for breaking that down.
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:19.200
My as you were talking it, just I started thinking, you know, what is the intersection of wisdom and creativity?
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:20.559
And is there one?
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:24.480
And if it if there were one, what what do you think it would be?
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:26.319
Oh, okay, that's really good.
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.359
Uh how how does wisdom relate to creativity?
00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:47.599
I think to be creative, to be truly creative and come up with something that truly other people haven't come up with before, you not only need a certain amount of information to draw upon, the sources, so to speak, um, but you also need a certain level of clarity of mind.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:19:04.000
Uh, and whether that's being relaxed, uh, whether it's being content, whether it's uh there's something about where you just slow down a little bit and see the bigger picture for what it is, as opposed to getting too caught up in the details.
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:12.000
And we often say, you know, you you can't see the wood for the trees, and because we're often just so into whatever we're doing, um, we just don't take that step back.
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:27.359
And to me, when you are uh practicing wisdom, taking that step back and taking that deep breath and trying to think about how this all links together uh and being in that relaxed state of mind to do that linking uh is key.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:36.480
And so I think it's it's not impossible, but it's harder to be creative when you are uh not as wise.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:36.960
Okay.
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.720
You can still do it, you can still do it, but it's just that much more difficult.
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:44.000
And I think getting into that frame of mind is absolutely key.
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:48.880
Um, I in the book I talk a lot about meditation, but not meditation directly.
00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:50.400
To me, meditation is fantastic.
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:51.519
I mean, it's it's beautiful.
00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:53.519
The only problem is it's so difficult to do.
00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:54.480
It's so difficult.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.920
Um, most you know, most people do five seconds and then they're struggling.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:03.839
Um, but I I talk about alternative ways to get to the same frame of mind, but in a much easier way.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.319
Because if you try to empty your mind, good luck.
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:07.039
Good luck.
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:11.119
Um, but it's uh that there are other ways of getting to the same to the same destination.
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:12.000
Absolutely.
00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:18.400
Well, thank you for off the cuff telling me your thoughts on the intersection of wisdom and creativity.
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:20.880
This has been such a wonderful conversation.
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:22.559
I have one last question.
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:26.079
What does it feel like in your body to be creative?
00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:29.839
Okay, what does it feel like to be creative?
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:31.920
I think it feels inspiring.
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:35.119
I think you know when you've been creative.
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:40.720
Uh I personally I get a kind of jolt of I adrenaline, I guess it is.
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:46.240
Is it adrenaline where it's almost as if there's something a little bit deeper has just happened.
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:48.240
Okay, and you can't quite explain it.
00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:58.319
You can't say exactly what it was, but it that jolt of adrenaline just made you feel different, it made you feel positive, only for a fleeting moment, but it's very clear.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:08.400
I almost feel it as if I've almost glimpsed a part of the future, and it it just feels like there's something very special has just happened.
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:12.400
Um and I think that's it's it's a fantastic feeling.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.079
It's a fantastic feeling.
00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:16.720
It's uh inspiring.
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:26.799
You want to feel it again, but it it in in a very I don't know how to how to put it, it's it's um it's almost uh a transcendent feeling.
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:32.880
I think that's probably the best way, because it doesn't really relate directly to any of the other kind of feelings we have on a daily basis.
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:36.559
It's more so just a deep feeling that something right has just happened.
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:44.160
Um, I I as an analogy, uh, when you help someone without a single thought of return, okay.
00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:48.480
Let's say you help an old person cross a street and you don't want anything in return.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:50.880
You just do it for the for the sake of doing it.
00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:52.079
You just feel good.
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:53.119
You just feel good.
00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:54.400
Not for any particular reason.
00:21:54.480 --> 00:22:01.039
You're not gonna get it or you're not gonna get anything back in return, but you just feel like you did something good and you did something right.
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:05.599
I think it's that similar feeling, but amplified, but amplified.
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:06.880
And I love it.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.240
I absolutely love that feeling when you do feel you've come up with something new.
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:21.039
Um and I think it's just very important to be surrounded by others who kind of lift you up in that way and they give you that kind of energy rather than people who shoot you down um and do the opposite.
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:22.079
Absolutely.
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:25.519
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to join me here.
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:31.680
If people want to learn more about your book, the work that you do in the world, how could they get in touch with you and find you?
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:33.519
Yeah, periatwall.com.
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:34.640
Perry atwell.com.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:41.200
Uh on that you'll have all the links to my book and the details and so on and um all my future uh uh ideas.
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:41.839
Perfect.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.039
Well, I will put links in show notes so people have very easy access.
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:48.079
And thank you, Perry, so much for taking the time to join me.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:50.880
This has been such a delightful conversation.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:52.079
Uh, you're very welcome.
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:52.640
You're very welcome.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:23:07.119
The pleasure was all my Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:10.960
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00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:13.519
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00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:20.319
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00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:24.079
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00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:30.960
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00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:33.599
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00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.680
And remember, with creativity, anything's possible.
