WEBVTT
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Welcome to the Sustainable Builder Jack, the podcast that gives you the confidence to build high-performing sustainable homes.
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We're here to cut through the noise with honest conversations from the front lines of the industry.
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Talking with builders, designers, consultants, and the change makers driving a more sustainable future.
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Whether you're on the tools, behind the drawings, or just curious about what makes a home truly sustainable, you're in the right place.
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Get comfy, get curious, and let's have a yak about the future of building better.
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The info shared in this podcast is the icing on the cake.
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Sweet but not substantial.
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For the real deal, tap into the wisdom of experts who can provide advice on your specific situation.
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Stay sharp and say sustainable.
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We'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we meet today and pay our respects to elders past, present, and emerging.
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G'day folks.
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Now, on today's podcast, we caught up with Ben Barden.
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Ben is the CEO of the NAA or the National Australian Apprenticeships Association.
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These guys are the peak agency representing network providers for Australian Apprenticeship Support Services.
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Now, we've spoken many times on the podcast over the past few years about labour shortages in particular and how we can get more of the youth involved in the industry.
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So in True Yak Form, we started out trying to be slow and steady, and as always, that lasts about five minutes.
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Look, Ben is extremely knowledgeable, and we did bleed him for information.
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We spoke about pathways, education, immigration, eligibility, remuneration, retention, and anything else you can think of, essentially.
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There's lots of different models and pathways in the various different states.
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So we touched on state and federal government influences and in order to try and you know to try and explain and understand what the differences are between the states.
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We also got into the pressures being put on the industry to deliver so many homes and how apprentices are such a huge part of that puzzle, not only the current puzzle, but the future puzzle that we're all facing as well.
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Then we had a little bit of a chat about AI.
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AI got to mention, and we touched on how this may change the industry with respect to education and more importantly, possibly assisting with the shortfall on demand.
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Look, Ben was a pleasure to chat with.
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We have been looking to talk to him for quite a while.
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He's a very, very busy man, but we did.
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I hope you enjoyed this, guys.
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This is a good listen.
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Right, oh welcome, Ben.
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Thanks for joining us today.
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It's good to have you on, Matt.
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Thanks, Brian.
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Uh it's good to be here.
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Right.
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So look, as we do, Ben, we start off with every guest.
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Let's have a chat about Ben.
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Where's Ben from?
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Where did you come from?
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How did you get here, Matt?
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Tell us all about you.
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Oh, wow.
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Um, well, um, from London originally, as you can probably tell from my accent.
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Um, I came over to Australia as a young man, um uh 22 years old.
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I've moved to regional New South Wales.
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So I'm based out of Bathurst in regional New South Wales.
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Had four years in construction um as a painter and decorator, um, and then was able to get a part-time teaching job in TAFE.
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Um uh and um yeah, moved on from there, went and got into vocational education training in 1919, um, and ran a group training company for a decade, uh, which is where you hire um apprentices and lease them out to host employers.
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I did that in regional New South Wales, and so I've employed about five and a half thousand apprentices over the years, and um, and so that's the kind of uh basis on which I I draw my experience.
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Um, but for the last 10 years or so, I've been um uh running the National Um uh Australian Apprenticeships Association, and uh we work with um government and with the department to try and make the apprenticeship system work as optimally as we can.
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So that's a that's a podd history um without without too many um deviations into uh into the personal journey I've had to get to this point.
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Yeah.
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Were you in China for a while or no?
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No, um uh I did I did um set up a consulting business and do some work with the uh vocational training council in Hong Kong.
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Oh uh that's right.
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And I did set up the London Apprenticeship Company along the way.
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Um so I went back and uh which is a group training style entity uh when we launched in the global financial crisis, which was brave.
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Uh but it's still going.
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So that's good.
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It's a similar sort of model to the one that we use uh for GTOs over here in Australia.
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Okay, nice.
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And Ben, tell us about the National Australian Apprenticeships Association.
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Yeah, what what is it?
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Is it a government body or uh is it?
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No, no, it's uh it's a member-based association, and the uh the members are the organizations that sign up and support all of the apprentices and trainees in Australia.
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So there's a training contract that has to be entered into, and uh my members go and um physically go and check out the workplace, make sure that it's suitable, that the supervisor is appropriately trained and has the right qualifications.
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Um, and then they take the uh apprentice and the um and the employer through the obligations of the training contract, they physically sign the paperwork, and then there are a range of uh supports that are offered uh from helping people make uh do their claims for incentive payments, which is really important at the moment, particularly for apprentices.
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Um, and um uh and there's uh uh there's uh additional mentoring support uh for certain uh apprentices that and trainees that are doing it tough and need additional help.
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Yeah.
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So your members are the GTOs?
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No, they're the Apprentice Connect Australia providers.
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So Okay, you're gonna have to explain that for us now.
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Sorry.
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Okay, so let's who's involved?
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Who's the stakeholders?
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Let's clarify that first.
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So the stakeholders are uh what what used to be called Axe Apprenticeship Centers, um, and they've gone through various names.
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They've um the contract's been in place since 1998, um, and it's funded by the Commonwealth.
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Um, and there there are currently 10 organizations that provide the service nationally.
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Um, and so employers have got a choice um of uh which which provider they they want to use.
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Um and they phone up an apprentice connect um provider and they'll come to them they'll come to the business and sign up sign up the apprentice.
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And in fact, if there's one message about how do you navigate the apprenticeship system, it's phone up your apprentice connect provider, they'll tell you.
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Because it's complicated and it's different in each jurisdiction, yeah.
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Okay.
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Right.
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So for I guess let's start at the start.
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I'm 16 years old and I'm I'm button heads with teachers.
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Yeah.
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Where where do I go?
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Or how do I like this?
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Well, of course, um sorry, that's a very that's a very blank question.
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But yeah, like final pathway company.
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People, people, you know, those those sorts of um students would go to their uh go to their mum and dad and say, Look, I'm sick of school, I want to leave school.
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Um and the parents would go, Well, you you could you you you can only leave school if you're gonna get an apprenticeship.
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And um you can still do that, but the mandatory school leaving age is now 17 in most most parts of Australia.
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Um, and so yeah, 15 years ago, about half of young uh half the people who started an apprenticeship did it when they were 15 or 16, and then um a significant proportion when they finished high school, and then uh a number of adult apprentices starting later in life.
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It's changed over the last few years.
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So if you're a 16-year-old, um usually uh more often than not you stay on at school now, um uh unhappily, uh in some instances, and then uh and then try and get a try and pick up an apprenticeship when you when you finish.
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Um so you know, people uh a lot of a lot of school students will do school-based apprenticeships, but they're primarily 85% of them are traineeships, and they're kind of driven by the what the school can offer.
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Um, and they don't often um it's not often a pathway into a full apprenticeship.
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Um it is sometimes, but but uh not often.
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So the short answer is uh most people stick at school and start an apprenticeship when they um when they're 17 or 18 once they've left school.
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But so what what is a school-based apprenticeship?
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And how could, you know, like a lot of potential listeners or employers, uh, how could they sort of tap into that?
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Um well, the best thing for employers to do is to have links with their local schools, particularly the ones that have um a vocational stream um in their in their school offering.
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And the school-based apprenticeships uh or school-based traineeships are often in things like hospitality and uh things that can be offered within the school.
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Um and they involve some work placements, so schools will be reaching out to employers, and it's a really good way for an employer to get a sense of um who the best potential um candidates are once they leave school.
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Um, so yeah, engaging with your local school is always a good idea, particularly if you know that you're going to be taking on um uh that the local schools are offering stuff that's related to the vocation that you're in.
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Um yes.
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So is that what's commonly referred to as a pre-app?
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No, they're they're slightly different.
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Um pre-apprenticeships are shorter, shorter courses, um, and they usually have a longer um work placement component as part of their pre-apprentip.
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And sometimes they involve the TAFE College, the local TAFE College coming down and working with the school.
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Sometimes they can be delivered in the school, but they've generally got a longer, longer um uh period of work placement.
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And pre-apprentips are a really good way for young people to find out whether they like a um like a particular vocation, um, whether they actually got the aptitude for it, whether they can see themselves doing it for an extended period.
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Because as you know, um a full trade apprenticeship still takes um on average three and a half to four years to get through.
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So you've really got to love the work um and really want to work in the industry.
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Yeah.
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It's more than that, though.
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Like three and a half to four years.
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That's that's just a start.
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You're gonna do it for a very long time.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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That's right.
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I was um I was watching something uh about Master Craftsman in Japan, so one of the oldest companies in the world.
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They've had 41 family generations running this one business.
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And uh the carpenters there um spend a lifetime developing their craft.
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And after they finish their basic apprenticeship, um they've thought the the the second phase of the apprenticeship, they choose one tool, um, such as a planer, and uh they spend 20 years getting to be the master planer.
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Well, um that's that's the super craft.
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Um, you know, they they're building Shinto temples and those sorts of things.
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So that's um that that's taking it to a whole new level.
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But yeah, the point you make is right, you know, people have got to want to know that they're gonna want to do that um that type of work, but they find it fulfilling, they like to work with their hands, uh, they like the sense of um fulfillment when they look back at what they've built in a day and go, shit, yeah, I really, I really put in a good day there, and I've got a sense of um sense of completion about the you know what's um that's a day well spent.
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I didn't just sit in an office and you know send emails.
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A lot of them want to do that nowadays, though, don't they?
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Uh well, possibly fewer and fewer with um AI.
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Um you know, those are the types of jobs that are gonna be uh the white-collar jobs um, and particularly if you've been to university, those are the ones that are gonna be most disrupted in this next wave of of AI that we're gonna see.
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So a lot of um young people are reconsidering uh what what's gonna be a really good career path and what's not gonna be quite so disrupted by the new technologies that are coming down the pipeline incredibly quickly.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Can I just can I just touch on so a few things mentioned there that I my experience was just different, so like the idea of liking a job when you first start it, it's just I don't think that's I think it's be so rare in in a lot of instances, especially as a carpenter, I didn't I didn't necessarily like it, you know, waking up every morning and you know, going out and I started on a Saturday in you know the on the hills of Victoria out in um past Broadford, if you're familiar familiar with the area, but yeah, um freezing cold, but I grew to love it and and I I think it was just a I think there's a real commitment issue with in the society these days that people just don't have that just commitment to okay, I'm gonna pursue a path.
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And and to Brian's point, I'm not sure that for some people, yeah, the path does last long, but for me now I've been I've been not a carpenter for longer than I was a carpenter.
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I was I was really only a carpenter 10 years and progressed you know into you know site management and and whatever.
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So it's a great I mean the trade generally is a I I and now I look back on being a carpenter just as one of the best things I've ever done with my life because I feel like I'm it just taught me so much about life and just even about being useful around the house.
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I you know, I'd be useless trying to make money as a carpenter, but I'm useful and you know impress the wife at times, which keeps keeps um the marriage happy.
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So I yeah, I I sort of challenge the the the typical sort of I mean I think the world's got to this place where you know all these kids just have to enjoy every day.
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Like there's there's a real fulfillment in doing something that's challenging.
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Yeah, I um I'm not down on the kids for uh wanting to get some uh instant rewards, uh because you know, the intergenerational uh kind of offer that they've got now is a pretty raw deal by comparison to the the deal that our generation had.
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So um uh I in the research that we did when I was on the Skills Board in New South Wales, um, the main thing is that there's a deal, right?
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It's like I know that the apprentice wages are low.
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Um, I know that I'm gonna have entry-level work.
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As long as you, as the employer, look look after your side of the deal, that is, expose me to um work when I'm ready to do it, um, you know, pay me accurately and on time, uh, and um provide kind of supervision that encourages me to learn the new skills.
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And because most of these skills, as you would know, Simon, from your time um was are learned on the job.
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And by doing them, not uh, you know, when you go to TAFE, you get the underpinning knowledge, you get that kind of understanding of why it's done that way.
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But 85% of the time, the the skills are learned on the job.
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And as you build your skill base, you expect the recognition.
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I want to work on these sorts of things, you know, in your third and fourth year, just leave me alone to do that.
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Don't don't criticize me for doing that.
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I'm actually pretty good at it now.
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And so I I think, but but it is uh, you know, the the old adage of get a get a trade behind you is still a really good advice from a parent to to their child because um it can take you in all sorts of different pathways.
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And if you're going to university, you would expect to have five or six different types of careers after you leave that.
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You you know, the job for life has has disappeared.
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So um, you know, uh you look at it and think, well, this would be a really good start to my career.
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When I get sick of it, or when I want to come off the tools, there are plenty of ways of getting into project management, site management, the um running your own business is often a pathway that people take, or or just going and doing you know, taking the skills that they've learned and understanding about how the work how construction works to do something else, you know, and um uh become a podcaster, perhaps.
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Um you know that that that isn't a unit in your carpentry um training qualification, is it?
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Yeah, no.
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So can I I'm gonna take a little bit of a step back for a second just in case there is any young people listening to this, or maybe we become famous and they start presenting this podcast in schools.
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Um so to the best of my knowledge, there's 11 base apprenticeships available across the country, and then there's some ATPs as well, which are advanced technical pathways, which are not necessarily apprenticeships, but to the best of my knowledge, you're carpentry plumbing, electrical, civil construction, bricklaying, cabinetry making, joinery, painting, plastering, tiling, roof and roof plumbing, concrete, and anything, glazing is in there as well.
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I think I think that's the eleven that's the base apprentices for this industry as such, for the construction industry.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, you've yeah ATPs, there's construction management, design and drafting, I think, is surveying in there as well, and then air conditioning and refrigeration drops into that as well.
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So there's plenty of pathways, like there's there's plenty of trades, and even if you don't like one, once you're in the industry, and like right now, man, it's I would prefer to be a carpenter right now than a builder, to be honest.
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That's for sure.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, so it's it's prime time.
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Yeah, for construction, that's right.
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And um, but it's it's broader than that because uh yeah, when I ran the group training company, we had 127 vocations that we we had apprentices and trainees in 127.
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Um, but across the whole economy, um, you can do a traineeship or an apprenticeship and uh nearly a thousand qualifications.
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Um and so that that sort of integrated work-based learning model where you learn primarily on the job and then you go to TAFE or another registered training organization to learn your underpinning knowledge.
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Um, that's got really broad support across uh and and it goes to how people like to learn.
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Um, if you like to learn by doing, if you like to learn with your hands, um it's a really good pathway as opposed to you know learning in in a kind of academic environment with books and um you know the um working on a computer.
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If that's how you like to learn, then probably university pathway is better.
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But if um if you like to learn by doing, then the vocational pathways are really broad across Australia at the moment.
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Yeah.
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It's a great system.
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Yeah.
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And uh but it goes to your point, I guess, that um you don't have to have you you can move between them um if the first uh if the first vocation that you try isn't exactly right for you.
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Um if you find tiling um too hard on your knees and working in cold spaces too much, maybe you want to think, well, if only I'd practice my maths better, I might I could be a Sparky.
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Uh Ben, I I was fascinated by the way you really simply and maybe I overlooked, uh really simply articulated okay.
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If you if you prefer learning, you know, online or by reading, you take this pathway, or if you prefer learning by doing, take this.
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What would what's your advice to a young person?
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Is that sort of what should a young person be focused on early in their career?
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Yeah, I think I think it's a question that doesn't get asked enough or inquired enough uh at school.
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Um, you know, I think how there's a recognition um that uh people learn in different ways.
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Um, some people are kinesthetic learners, some people as as we went through.
00:20:50.660 --> 00:20:58.579
Um but most teachers uh are have come through the academic pathway, and then some of them have become careers advisors.
00:20:58.740 --> 00:21:07.220
And so that and some schools are set up um to be measured by how many, what percentage of people they get to university.
00:21:07.299 --> 00:21:09.059
So that's the kind of mindset.
00:21:09.220 --> 00:21:15.059
What they don't do frequently enough is to say, okay, um, let's have a look at how you like to learn.
00:21:15.140 --> 00:21:23.779
Oh, well, maybe, maybe you're you're better suited for an artistic strand in school, or maybe you're better suited for a vocational strand in school.
00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:33.700
Um, and yet uh, you know, um there are many schools that do um have a significant proportion of their students doing vocational study.
00:21:33.940 --> 00:21:40.579
So, you know, institutional it the the way in which we assess that is not nationally consistent.
00:21:40.660 --> 00:21:42.339
It's kind of school by school.
00:21:42.579 --> 00:22:10.819
And um uh yeah, I I think if I was going to change one thing about the school system, I'd I'd have um that understanding of uh how different students like to learn inculcated through the whole of their um their their experience at school so that the advice that they're given and the options that they can try, like work experience, you know, go and go and try in the school holidays, go and try working with this with this firm.
00:22:10.980 --> 00:22:14.500
Um uh that that can be a really meaningful.
00:22:14.819 --> 00:22:19.700
You can you can either think, oh, I really love this, or I could grow to love it, like you did, son.
00:22:20.180 --> 00:22:22.980
Um Or uh no, it's not for me.
00:22:23.140 --> 00:22:29.380
Um I think I think getting that understanding early on is really um would be really advantageous.
00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:29.779
Yeah.
00:22:30.099 --> 00:22:30.660
I don't know.
00:22:31.620 --> 00:22:31.940
No.
00:22:32.339 --> 00:22:33.299
I I I don't know.
00:22:33.460 --> 00:22:35.700
I'm I'm I'm really mixed on this at the moment.
00:22:35.779 --> 00:22:38.019
I think our education system is broken.
00:22:38.099 --> 00:22:39.140
I think it's very broken.
00:22:39.299 --> 00:22:46.099
I think we are we're basically changing I don't know if I want to go here, do I, Simon?
00:22:46.579 --> 00:22:59.299
I don't know if you do you're you're obviously right in in amongst it, Brian, you know, with young kids and you know going through this sort of journey, um seeing it up close and personal.
00:22:59.620 --> 00:23:13.620
But it it does sort of make sense if you if you determine the objective of a young person between ages of well pr under 25, you'd you say under 30, you're you're let's say under 25, your objective is to learn.
00:23:13.779 --> 00:23:16.900
And okay, let's call it two pathways of learning.
00:23:16.980 --> 00:23:27.299
I mean, I'm sure there's micro pathways as well, but it's not like you don't spend enough time at school and get to know teachers well enough that they can sort of put a profile together.
00:23:27.380 --> 00:23:33.460
I'm sure they've got profiles on each student that that understanding could be more uh communicated.
00:23:33.539 --> 00:23:35.620
Um, I think that's where the disconnect is.
00:23:35.779 --> 00:23:36.740
I think Yeah, yeah.
00:23:36.900 --> 00:23:47.859
What we used to do at the group training company is we'd take a tri-a-trade um uh project to each school each year in our region, uh the about 30 or 40 schools that we went to each year.
00:23:48.180 --> 00:24:04.819
And um we would get the apprentices um who had been at that school the previous year to come back and um talk with the students about what it's really like, and then we'd set up these different bays so that people could, you know, practice some of the core hand skills.
00:24:04.900 --> 00:24:14.500
Um and um, you know, and I I used to I used to uh man the the painting bay, and you could tell uh if people just had an aptitude for it.
00:24:14.660 --> 00:24:16.420
You can you you can tell pretty quick.
00:24:16.500 --> 00:24:19.299
And they and it was like, oh yeah, actually I'm pretty good at this.
00:24:19.460 --> 00:24:22.019
And that sort of that's a positive reinforcement.
00:24:22.180 --> 00:24:44.019
But the conversations that um students had with, because they remembered that person from last year when they were a pain in the ass in the playground, or they were, you know, they were potentially a bit of a um a troublemaker because they they weren't enjoying being at school, and then suddenly there they are in their in their overalls, you know, getting on well um in their career.
00:24:44.180 --> 00:24:51.460
And um that that those kinds of peer-to-peer conversations can be really powerful in terms of oh, yeah, well, maybe I should do that.
00:24:51.539 --> 00:24:54.420
Yeah, all right.
00:24:54.660 --> 00:25:00.660
So let's go to uh where our industry's at with respect to numbers, if we can, Ben.
00:25:00.819 --> 00:25:01.140
Yeah.
00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:05.220
So we're way down, we know we're way down, and we're gonna be even worse.
00:25:05.299 --> 00:25:10.180
Like next year, we need way more, and by 2029, we're in a bit of we're in a lot of trouble.
00:25:10.339 --> 00:25:15.859
And I don't think I have my reservations about what's happening in government at the moment with just bringing more people in.
00:25:15.940 --> 00:25:23.140
That's not that's not the answer, especially people that are going and doing cert twos and cert threes, because they're not fixing our problem, they're absolutely not.
00:25:23.299 --> 00:25:25.460
So I think that we need to look at home first.
00:25:25.620 --> 00:25:27.380
So let's talk about uh how many.
00:25:27.539 --> 00:25:32.019
So we've 115,000 odd apprentices at the moment.
00:25:32.180 --> 00:25:35.779
Um, can you tell us about attrition rates and numbers and where we're at?
00:25:36.099 --> 00:25:37.299
Sure, sure, sure.
00:25:37.460 --> 00:25:52.819
So through the pandemic, there were some really um uh generous incentives to take on apprentices and trainees, and we got up to about 428,000 apprentices and trainees, which is about 3.5% of the overall workforce.
00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:56.819
Um, they were very generous, unaffordable uh in normal times.
00:25:56.980 --> 00:26:03.380
I think that program costs somewhere around seven billion dollars um in wage subsidies, but it was very successful.
00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:10.579
Um, and we're just seeing the last of those trades, um, trade qualification uh uh finish now.
00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:15.059
Um so a lot of those started in 2020, 2021.
00:26:15.460 --> 00:26:22.099
Um, the program finished in 2022, and so we're just seeing the tail end of them come through.
00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:31.700
Uh the latest figures nationally are that um there's a hundred uh two hundred and ninety-seven thousand apprentices and trainees.
00:26:31.940 --> 00:26:38.500
Um and there of those, about 80,000 are uh trainees.
00:26:38.740 --> 00:26:49.059
So trainees have um the the government pulled incentives for employers of trainees, and they went from about 180,000 down to 80,000.
00:26:49.380 --> 00:26:52.339
But for the construction industry, you you want two things.
00:26:52.500 --> 00:27:01.539
You want a smooth flow of um skills across the full range of those um vocations that you outlined before.
00:27:01.779 --> 00:27:14.019
And um you don't you certainly don't want a gap of a year or two where people don't take enough on, and you want for it to both meet the the increase in the size of the workforce.
00:27:14.180 --> 00:27:30.180
So since the end of COVID, um we've gone from a workforce of uh yeah, our workforce has grown from somewhere around 12.5 million to 14.1 million, so nearly a 20% increase since COVID.
00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:33.859
But since COVID, 20%, yeah, yeah.
00:27:34.180 --> 00:27:48.180
So actually, um, you know, we've we've been growing the economy really um the the migration is has actually helped in that regard, helped grow the workforce and grow the overall size of the economy.
00:27:48.420 --> 00:28:30.720
Um but uh uh the the number of apprentices hasn't kept um pace with the growth of the labour force overall, and and it hasn't kept pace with the ambitious targets that we've got for um renewable energy, um electricians, and um and the the transition, that's sort of um the the government's overarching plan of the future made in Australia.
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:37.600
We're not really on track to deliver uh enough tradies for for for those ambitious targets.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:40.160
It's scary.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:45.279
Yep, it's a scary stat to decline so greatly.
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:50.160
While while the while we've grown 20% overall as a workforce.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:50.960
That's national.
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:51.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:54.000
Yeah, that's national.
00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:59.920
Like I don't I'm gonna pick a fight here, but I don't really care.
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:05.279
If you look at what we're we're bringing in vast immigration or yeah, immigration.
00:29:05.360 --> 00:29:06.559
So I'm one of them.
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:07.840
I am an immigrant.
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:13.279
I came in under I and I used my carpentry apprenticeships, so I was a qualified carpenter.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:20.000
But speaking out of Torn here, the vast majority that are coming in right now don't have a qualification.
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:32.480
No, most uh uh I there was a a short I don't want to get too much into the debate, and it's not I'm not an expert in this area, but there was a big influx of about 500,000 in that first year after COVID.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:36.320
A lot of those were international students um that were coming for the university system.
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:37.519
They come and they've gone.
00:29:37.840 --> 00:29:38.960
So our biggest export.
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:39.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:40.080 --> 00:29:42.880
Right, it's about our third biggest export after after mining.
00:29:43.120 --> 00:29:48.320
So, you know, we wouldn't we wouldn't look at any other industry and say, oh, you're the our third biggest export.
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:49.120
We hate you.
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:51.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely not.
00:29:51.600 --> 00:30:04.960
Um so that there, you know, you've got to you've got to differentiate between temporary skilled migration, um, the student cohort coming in, um, and and and how it's and how it's settled down in the last couple of years.
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:06.880
So it's around 200,000 now, I think.
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:11.360
Net net migration's about um 200,000 um per annum.
00:30:11.600 --> 00:30:14.480
Anyway, that's been the way that we have grown the economy.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:15.920
So it's a double-edged sword.
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:25.360
If you if you cut that off, it's um that all of those, you know, because unemployment has stayed at in the fours, it's not that that it's not putting up unemployment.
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:42.160
Um, but my you know, the the position that we come from is uh that you should um ensure uh when you're thinking about temporary skilled migration that we've exhausted all opportunities for young people in this country to take a vocational pathway first.
00:30:42.320 --> 00:30:55.360
Like don't, you know, and and you can see it happening in some hospitality trades, chefs and cooks and that sort of stuff, where people will um bring in temporary skilled migrants to be able to work in the kitchens and so forth.
00:30:55.519 --> 00:31:01.440
Where uh has have those opportunities been exhausted with the local community first?
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:04.320
So, you know, there's a balance in all of these things.
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:04.799
Yeah.
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.200
What do you think about attrition rates?
00:31:07.360 --> 00:31:12.160
Is is is there something in that, or is that just something that's like it is what it is?
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:16.799
Yeah, attrition rates have gone up slightly over the last um decade.
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:28.240
There's some nuances in the way that you look at these things because um the attrition rates from say 2012 included a large number, a third of them were existing worker traineeships.
00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:42.559
And um they uh uh uh you know in 2012 we had 512,000 apprentices and trainees, but a third of them were existing worker trainees, and they were they had a much higher um completion rate.
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:48.960
Now the funding for them disappeared, um, and so they're no longer in the picture.
00:31:49.120 --> 00:31:56.640
And when people say, oh, well, we used to get 60% of people through their apprenticeship and traineeship, they were in those numbers.
00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:08.720
Uh now it's about uh 55% completion for trainees and uh about 50% for 48 to 50 percent for uh uh for trades.
00:32:09.120 --> 00:32:18.960
Um the time that trades was higher was when it was an indenture ship, where it was very difficult for young people to get out of uh a trade.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:22.480
But the sorts of things that we're looking at now is what happens next.
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:36.320
Because there's a lot of people in construction, as you know, that are third-year apprentices, they're still on relatively low wages, and um the they're working on a big project, and and the other guys are going, Well, look, we know you're good.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.840
Um, why don't you just come over here and earn three times as much?
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:47.680
Uh still working in the trade, you've still got a pathway, we recognize the skills you've developed, you just haven't finished your your apprenticeship.
00:32:47.840 --> 00:33:01.440
So there's quite a bit of that, and we're looking at the kind of employment outcomes that happen for those people and the wage uplift, how much more they're earning um than they would have earned if they hadn't done their apprenticeship.
00:33:01.600 --> 00:33:03.440
And the apprentices stack up really well.
00:33:03.600 --> 00:33:14.480
They stack up really well by comparison to doing a just a course at TAFE, um, and they stack up really well against uh people going into university.
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:20.720
One of the things that isn't talked about so much is the four-year completion rate in universities is 42%.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:34.000
Um, uh, you know, we would always like to get more people through, and the sort, you know, there's a whole set of complex reasons why people don't.
00:33:34.080 --> 00:33:36.320
It's a long commitment for four years.
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:43.600
Most most people's first job lasts a couple of years, took 2.6 years, I think, is the is the average.
00:33:43.840 --> 00:33:47.279
And so, you know, it's a it's a big undertaking, yeah.
00:33:47.840 --> 00:33:58.720
Ben, what do you say to you know, as your example there, the third year apprentice uh you know, basically ending their apprenticeship and going to work with somebody else for more money?
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:03.120
I I I that could be an opportunity.
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:07.279
I mean, uh if you look at elite sports, I get it's different.
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:18.320
But you know, if you're excelling, any probably any real profession, if you're excelling, that the remuneration will, you know, uh be yeah, we're a free market capitalism.
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:38.479
It's sort of something yeah, that maybe could be a you know, a carrot for a lot of people looking to get in the industry that maybe maybe those that are on the verge of going between university or or a career in the trades, um, it could really excel rather than knowing that they've got this fixed four-year term in front of them.
00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:40.559
I know it can be malleable, but it's not a fixed wage.
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:44.159
That's that's that's the bit I don't get.
00:34:44.319 --> 00:34:50.959
So when you say you they're they're moving somewhere else because of more money and they're stopping their apprentices, they don't need to stop their apprenticeship.
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:59.039
If that if that employer chooses to pay them more, it's up to the apprentice to say, Yeah, no worries, I'll come work for you, but I need to continue my apprenticeship.
00:34:59.279 --> 00:35:02.319
Yeah, there's nothing to say they can't pay them more, absolutely nothing.
00:35:02.479 --> 00:35:04.559
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely.
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:05.839
I completely agree with you.
00:35:05.999 --> 00:35:27.789
And in fact, um, you know, the model is the biggest cost to an employer is when they drop out.
00:35:27.949 --> 00:35:34.029
And so it's like, well, you've just put two or three years worth of uh coaching and supervision into this person.
00:35:34.189 --> 00:35:34.909
Do you really want that?
00:35:35.069 --> 00:35:36.029
They're actually pretty useful.
00:35:36.189 --> 00:35:36.349
Yeah.
00:35:36.669 --> 00:35:38.909
Uh don't you want to pay them above award?
00:35:39.069 --> 00:35:41.789
Um, so yeah, uh, you're right.
00:35:41.869 --> 00:36:04.589
Um, and and the the recent uh junior wage um uh determination uh to basically scrap junior wages and and just have uh a single uh national minimum wage, that will flow through to modern awards and that will have in the next uh after July, it that'll have a big impact on apprentice wages, yeah.
00:36:06.749 --> 00:36:19.389
And uh females taking, I mean, me and Brian are biased you know, being in the construction industry, and obviously it's long um lacked, you know, female representation.
00:36:19.629 --> 00:36:24.989
How is that sort of going, I guess, in percentage increases over the years?
00:36:25.309 --> 00:36:30.109
Yeah, well, um from a very low base, it's getting much better.
00:36:30.189 --> 00:36:32.109
Um, but it was from a very low base.
00:36:32.189 --> 00:36:43.149
Um when you look internationally, uh, about 12 to 15 percent of um construction workers are women, uh trade trade construction workers are women in Europe.
00:36:43.309 --> 00:36:43.629
Yeah.
00:36:43.869 --> 00:36:49.869
Um uh here it was as low as 3% in some of the trades, higher in electrical.
00:36:50.029 --> 00:36:58.029
Um, that has gone with um additional focus areas, it's gone to six or seven percent over the last couple of years.
00:36:58.269 --> 00:37:03.069
And um it goes to the kind of blokey culture that we've experienced.
00:37:03.309 --> 00:37:15.389
Um, and the, you know, um that it's not a welcoming place for a for a lot of women, and a lot of young women are discouraged by their parents when they're at school for, oh, you don't want to go into that.
00:37:15.469 --> 00:37:18.349
That it's you know, you've got all those horrible blokes.
00:37:18.509 --> 00:37:27.709
And um, and then what we do see is that there are a lot of women who go into other jobs and then they in their mid-20s and say, Look, I always wanted to be a chippy.
00:37:27.789 --> 00:37:35.069
Um, and in fact, I'm putting up with this nonsense, um, this kind of blokey nonsense in you know, my hospitality job or whatever.
00:37:35.229 --> 00:37:37.229
Um, no, I'm gonna go and do it anyway.
00:37:37.469 --> 00:37:49.789
And um uh, and what we're finding is that um if you're allocated you by default, you'll get access to a mentor to help you um deal with the sort of male-dominated environment.
00:37:49.949 --> 00:38:01.629
Um, but often it is other female apprentices supporting each other um because you don't want to, you know, what we see is that that that peer support is really important.
00:38:01.949 --> 00:38:07.629
And then there are a lot of young, young builders who uh actually, you know, won't tolerate that.
00:38:07.789 --> 00:38:19.549
It's that that kind of blokey environment that the the the three of us probably put up with um is not actually the optimal way to to run a business or or get the best out of people.
00:38:19.709 --> 00:38:31.789
Um and so if you've got more contemporary employment practices and you just won't put up with sexism and racism and that sort of stuff, um, you're you're actually going to get a better productivity across your whole workforce.
00:38:31.869 --> 00:38:40.269
Um and if you jump on the people who are, you know, bullying and and those sorts of things, um, yep, it's it's a happier workplace for everybody.
00:38:40.509 --> 00:38:58.909
Um so yeah, um it's improving, they get additional supports, there are specialist providers to help them, um, but it's often the peer support which is the most effective to help um young young women, you know, succeed in in traditionally male-dominated areas.
00:38:59.789 --> 00:39:05.869
So um what are the biggest systemic challenges facing you guys at the moment?
00:39:06.109 --> 00:39:10.429
So I know you're lobbying government and you've got a couple of things in in the fire at the moment.
00:39:10.669 --> 00:39:12.989
So where's your biggest challenge coming from?
00:39:13.469 --> 00:39:24.989
Well, the biggest challenge obviously staring us down, um uh staring us down at the moment is the energy shock and how that's going to ripple through the economy over the next um 18 months to two years.
00:39:25.229 --> 00:39:33.549
So our analysis is that the the conflict probably won't be resolved in any meaningful way for a few months, maybe a few years.
00:39:33.709 --> 00:39:49.869
Maybe it'll become a frozen conflict like Gaza, or you know, it could be one of those things that and and so if the straits are blocked for an extended period, then we're gonna have um a constricted um supply of fuel.
00:39:50.109 --> 00:39:57.789
Um and that could flow through, I think the Prime Minister this week, there was a national cabinet meeting um on it this week.
00:39:57.949 --> 00:40:19.949
And by the time this goes to this podcast goes to air, you know, we may well be facing uh level four fuel restrictions, which is a um, you know, rationing of fuel and uh significantly constricted ability to fly places and other other measures that governments need to take when the price of energy goes up for so long.
00:40:20.189 --> 00:40:26.749
So we're we're concerned we're putting a package of potential measures to support apprentices and employers of apprentices.
00:40:27.149 --> 00:40:52.429
Um, if it gets that bad by the time this podcast airs, I'm hoping like the first first and foremost, we were making recommendations around um the apprentices that need to drive diesel youths long distances to get in in regional and remote areas in particular, uh both to get to work, to get to TAFE, and to move between work sites.
00:40:52.829 --> 00:41:03.389
Um, you know, in Northern Territory at the moment, um the um some of those remote communities, diesels at$4.40 a litre this week.
00:41:03.709 --> 00:41:21.629
And um, so if you can think about being on comparatively low wages um and that that that you know filling up your U already costs$150 and now it's going to be$200, that's that's a really significant proportion of your of your disposable income.
00:41:21.869 --> 00:41:26.989
So we're looking we're looking to have some measures to support apprentices and trainees there.
00:41:27.389 --> 00:41:36.749
But um if it stretches out for an extended period, then employers are going to, you know, we'll be there there'll be potential recession.
00:41:36.909 --> 00:41:42.109
And in a recession, you know, construction businesses can often run out of cash.
00:41:42.269 --> 00:41:46.989
Um, their their costs are going up, um, the demand is is coming down.
00:41:47.229 --> 00:42:11.549
So uh, you know, there are a range of incentives that we're recommending to government to, particularly for sectors that haven't been haven't had as much um uh you know, transport and logistics, um, agriculture, they haven't had generous incentives in the same way that um the key apprenticeship program wraps its arms around the um construction industry, for example.
00:42:11.789 --> 00:42:15.629
Yeah, so yeah, that's so that's your biggest challenge at the moment.
00:42:17.309 --> 00:42:23.389
I look I know that HAA and Master Builders are lobbying government as well, with the same like I think these are all going with the same issue.
00:42:23.469 --> 00:42:30.589
Um, and it does need to be spoken about and it does need to be resolved, and there needs to be a plan in place because there's a there's a high probability that will happen.
00:42:30.749 --> 00:42:31.789
There is a high probability.
00:42:32.429 --> 00:42:36.349
Well, yeah, you you you hope for the best, but plan for the worst.
00:42:36.429 --> 00:42:36.749
That's right.
00:42:37.069 --> 00:42:55.549
And um, you know, uh, I'm not sure how old you are, Brian, but when I was in London in uh growing up, you know, the there was the last um uh oil crisis that OPEC did, and uh yeah, it resulted in a three-day week, and and it and then a few years later the winter of discontent where there were power cuts and so forth.
00:42:55.789 --> 00:43:11.869
So um, you know, uh a normal life can be easily disrupted by these kinds of events, and um, we all have to become um economists to understand the inelasticity of demand, you know, those things that we would roll our eyes about at at school.
00:43:12.189 --> 00:43:24.269
But it changed the nation, like the yeah, like England as a whole, and Ireland as a whole at the time, even most of Europe changed its approach to energy efficiency and how they heat and cool their homes and their energy efficiency arms.
00:43:24.349 --> 00:43:25.309
That's where all that came from.
00:43:25.469 --> 00:43:38.029
And that's why they're 15 to 20 years ahead of some parts of the world, we won't name any, but it's why their energy efficiency is so high because their main heating was either through gas or um oil.
00:43:38.909 --> 00:43:39.309
Yeah, oil.
00:43:39.389 --> 00:43:43.069
Oil was the biggest thing, and oil just like it just wasn't available.
00:43:43.389 --> 00:43:45.629
And that's why I built a sustainable home.
00:43:45.709 --> 00:43:54.269
Um, my me personally, you know, um and the the focus on you know energy efficiency first, um, that's that's good.
00:43:54.429 --> 00:43:58.989
And then putting there's a lot of well, you know, uh Australians have voted with their ruse, haven't they?
00:43:59.069 --> 00:44:13.229
They've they've put um four million homes have got solar panels um on them, and uh so we're probably those households are probably better protected from this energy shock than we were um in the last energy shock.
00:44:13.309 --> 00:44:29.709
And uh, and uh a lot of a lot of homes have got home batteries now, um, and so that will smooth out, you know, if you if you pull back, you would be able to um run most of the day on the solar uh on your solar game.
00:44:30.109 --> 00:44:38.109
Um so we're you know we're better we're better prepared in that sense than we were um you know a few decades ago.
00:44:38.269 --> 00:44:38.909
Yeah.
00:44:40.349 --> 00:44:52.669
But it's certainly not gonna help the uptake of i is the problem with the apprenticeship uptake or the uh No, it's the creation, it's primarily the creation of the jobs.
00:44:54.509 --> 00:45:03.229
So if you have a look at what happened through the Boosting Apprenticeship Commencement Program, there's a lot of talk about why don't young people choose this?
00:45:03.389 --> 00:45:06.109
Well, if jobs are created, they do.
00:45:06.589 --> 00:45:10.829
We just ran a$7 billion research project on this, you know.
00:45:11.309 --> 00:45:14.189
We doubled the number of commencements um through the pandemic.
00:45:14.509 --> 00:45:16.589
$7 billion research.
00:45:17.149 --> 00:45:20.989
Oh well, it was the incentive apprenticeships.
00:45:21.469 --> 00:45:25.549
It's like, well, what are the look what are the lessons that we've got from the incentive program?
00:45:26.189 --> 00:45:30.909
The lessons are one, that it works, and two, that it's expensive.
00:45:31.069 --> 00:45:40.029
Um so uh, you know, it this time around, we're facing stagflation, which is you know a stagnant economy with high inflation.
00:45:40.189 --> 00:45:44.989
And you can't just pump money into it because it makes it worse and interest rates go up.
00:45:45.309 --> 00:46:00.989
So um the the measures that are gonna need to be considered now need to be much more targeted, time limited, and um uh but also generous enough so that employers can create the vacancies, uh apprenticeship vacancies that are needed.
00:46:01.229 --> 00:46:18.989
Because I'm sure with AI coming down the down the track that um uh that a lot of people will consider doing something which they they know if they get it behind them, it's gonna give them great, great pathways and meaningful work for the next um you know decade or so.
00:46:19.149 --> 00:46:19.469
Yeah.
00:46:19.869 --> 00:46:23.309
I do think that incentive worked really well, in my opinion.
00:46:23.469 --> 00:46:34.829
Like yeah, I have five apprentices at the moment, two of them are just coming off now as part of their incentive, and there's two more not far behind them, but they're mature age, so three three out of five are mature age.
00:46:34.909 --> 00:46:38.189
You could say they're all mature age because they're not 16 or 17.
00:46:38.429 --> 00:46:41.469
Um they are in their 20s and some in their 30s.
00:46:41.549 --> 00:46:43.629
But for us, I saw the benefit there.
00:46:43.789 --> 00:46:44.429
Absolutely.
00:46:44.669 --> 00:46:49.629
Like those mature age people would not have gone back to doing apprenticeship if the incentive wasn't there for sure.
00:46:49.869 --> 00:46:50.989
Yeah, absolutely for sure.
00:46:51.469 --> 00:46:56.909
You know, what one of the things that was interesting to me, um, you know, because I look at these figures all the time.
00:46:57.149 --> 00:47:05.789
Um, through the pandemic, there were more um adult apprentices than and trainees than there were um a genius.
00:47:05.949 --> 00:47:12.349
So 21 and above um was 51% of the apprentice and trainee cohort for the first time.
00:47:12.589 --> 00:47:20.189
Yeah, but um there is something that was that's a major factor in all of that, and that is that the construction industry was an essential service.
00:47:20.429 --> 00:47:27.549
So when a lot of people had to sit at home, the construction industry was basically a green card, you can go to work during the pandemic.
00:47:27.709 --> 00:47:31.549
So that's it's a big influencing factor, I think.
00:47:31.789 --> 00:47:34.269
So yeah, I think that had a lot of people.
00:47:37.469 --> 00:47:38.509
Yeah, you yeah, exactly.
00:47:38.589 --> 00:47:41.869
Yeah, and straight into construction because it was an essential service and you could go to work.
00:47:42.189 --> 00:47:49.389
And you know, the a lot of people in the health sector, um who were close to requirements, they moved out of the streets.
00:47:49.629 --> 00:47:51.149
They switched across, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:47:51.469 --> 00:48:02.509
And you know, the nursing qualifications uh took a nosedive uh in the in the years afterwards because it's like, oh shit, it's dangerous and hard and not that well paid.
00:48:03.069 --> 00:48:16.509
And um uh and so uh a lot of the people who are looking after us as we're uh aging are the very migrants that people are, you know, it's like, well, yeah, these are the people who are looking to look after you, mate.
00:48:17.389 --> 00:48:25.149
Uh because um Aussie's Aussie's aren't choosing those pathways, so you've got to be realistic about the balance that's achieved across the economy here.
00:48:25.229 --> 00:48:29.709
So yeah, they did bring in an incentive as well, though, for nurses, like literally towards the end of the pandemic.
00:48:29.789 --> 00:48:31.069
That was that was a big push.
00:48:31.629 --> 00:48:31.949
Yeah.
00:48:32.189 --> 00:48:34.669
Um, right, have you anything else, Simon?
00:48:34.829 --> 00:48:36.189
Because I think we're on time.
00:48:36.589 --> 00:48:37.629
No, I think that was good.
00:48:37.709 --> 00:48:39.149
There was great, great insights.
00:48:39.389 --> 00:48:39.629
Yeah.
00:48:40.349 --> 00:48:42.509
I mean, I think it's a it's a major issue.
00:48:42.589 --> 00:48:44.909
I think we could talk about it till the cats come home.
00:48:44.989 --> 00:48:47.549
Yeah, um there's no silver bullet, I don't think.
00:48:47.629 --> 00:48:52.349
Uh like um, you know, you did it's like a lot of these things, you know, they're incremental.
00:48:52.429 --> 00:48:55.389
Uh there are certain policy settings fit for time.
00:48:55.629 --> 00:49:08.509
Um and um uh, you know, the current governments try to shift the um balance of incentives going from employers to apprentices and trainees, and for the ones who get it, um, that's really great.
00:49:08.669 --> 00:49:17.469
Um in your business, Brian, you're probably getting the um uh key apprenticeship program, they might be um in receipt of the key apprenticeship program.
00:49:17.629 --> 00:49:20.669
That gives them 10 grand over the life of their qualification.
00:49:20.749 --> 00:49:21.789
That's really helpful.
00:49:21.949 --> 00:49:23.389
Um, it's really helpful.
00:49:23.949 --> 00:49:37.149
So uh, but you know, in the by the time this podcast goes to where um there'll be a stronger economic case to try and stimulate the employment through these kind of trade pathways.
00:49:37.389 --> 00:49:51.549
Um uh because you know, um comment you've got to keep your commencements going, come what may, because you can't have a year or two years with virtually no commencements because you're buying yourself problems for decades to come.
00:49:51.949 --> 00:49:52.269
Absolutely.
00:49:52.349 --> 00:49:54.669
It's the one child policy in China, isn't it?
00:49:56.189 --> 00:49:58.829
I think we're yeah, yeah, I won't comment on that.
00:49:59.069 --> 00:50:00.669
Um, did I see something?
00:50:00.909 --> 00:50:09.149
I'm sure I saw something in research about um possibly, you know, the uh apprentices have a tool incentive, and they were talking about making that a loan system.
00:50:09.229 --> 00:50:10.509
Is that true or is that rubbish?
00:50:10.829 --> 00:50:12.349
Uh that did happen, yeah.
00:50:12.429 --> 00:50:26.109
But um that happened with the um uh Abbott government came in and turned tools for your trade, which was five and a half thousand bucks at that stage, into um that you could you could take out a loan.
00:50:26.189 --> 00:50:32.669
Um and the loan is up to sort of uh in fact I don't know what it is now, but it's more than 20 grand.
00:50:32.909 --> 00:50:34.829
Um you can you can uh take a loan.
00:50:36.589 --> 00:50:42.989
Yeah, I mean um yeah, I mean it's a bit like oh uh take out a loan for the privilege of doing a job.
00:50:43.069 --> 00:50:43.389
Yeah.
00:50:43.629 --> 00:50:51.869
Um and uh so you know, um there is there are certain situations where it helps and it's a rational thing to do.
00:50:52.029 --> 00:51:13.789
But I think a lot of how the apprenticeship system, you asked that question about systemic system uh changes, a lot of the system was designed for young boys leaving school at 15 and with the assumption that they were going to stay at home for uh two or three years and that the wages would be such that when they were 19 or 20 they could probably move out of home.
00:51:14.269 --> 00:51:31.069
Well, most people start their apprenticeship when they're 18 or 19, and um they're you know uh that there's a big disparity between what they can earn in their apprenticeship if their employer doesn't pay above award wages and what the national minimum wage is now.
00:51:31.309 --> 00:51:38.429
And so it's like, oh shit, I could be earning you know 10 bucks an hour more if I was doing any job on the national minimum wage.
00:51:38.669 --> 00:51:52.189
And so that you know that has a bearing um on on it's it's a rational decision to job shift to something that gives you a better, uh, a better outcome as long as there's a good long-term pathway associated with it.
00:51:52.349 --> 00:51:55.549
So right, oh we'll get into the quick fire questions.
00:51:55.949 --> 00:51:56.669
Oh, okay.
00:51:56.749 --> 00:51:56.989
Yeah.
00:51:57.309 --> 00:51:57.949
You good?
00:51:58.349 --> 00:51:59.149
Yeah, right, yeah.
00:51:59.309 --> 00:52:01.629
Uh who's the most famous person in your phone book?
00:52:02.109 --> 00:52:04.349
Um, yeah, I was having a look through the other day.
00:52:04.429 --> 00:52:07.869
Probably Julia Gillard from when she was the uh education minister.
00:52:09.229 --> 00:52:09.789
That's a good one.
00:52:09.949 --> 00:52:11.709
Uh favourite sporting team?
00:52:12.109 --> 00:52:18.509
Well, I'd have to say um Arsenal just at the moment, now that they're um in second place in the APL.
00:52:18.589 --> 00:52:18.749
Yeah.
00:52:19.069 --> 00:52:21.389
Passive house or passive solar design?
00:52:21.949 --> 00:52:27.869
Yeah, well, I'm in a passive solar design house, which uh designed myself, so yeah.
00:52:28.109 --> 00:52:28.429
Very good.
00:52:28.589 --> 00:52:29.309
Yeah, yeah.
00:52:29.469 --> 00:52:32.029
Uh timber brick or alternative construction?
00:52:32.349 --> 00:52:36.909
Alternative construction, mine straw bath with cob internal walks.
00:52:37.229 --> 00:52:38.269
Oh, how did we miss on that?
00:52:38.349 --> 00:52:39.229
We've got to get you back on.
00:52:39.389 --> 00:52:40.109
Tell us all about it.
00:52:40.589 --> 00:52:43.469
No, we seriously, we've been looking for a straw bell person for a while.
00:52:43.629 --> 00:52:43.869
Yep.
00:52:44.189 --> 00:52:45.709
Oh, well, I can talk about straw bath.
00:52:45.949 --> 00:52:47.229
Did you build it yourself?
00:52:47.549 --> 00:52:48.989
Uh owner builder, yeah.
00:52:49.069 --> 00:52:49.229
Yeah.
00:52:49.389 --> 00:52:50.829
No, we definitely are gonna get you back on.
00:52:50.989 --> 00:52:51.389
Talk about that.
00:52:51.469 --> 00:52:52.349
That's a ripper.
00:52:52.749 --> 00:52:54.269
Uh favorite music.
00:52:54.909 --> 00:53:00.589
Um, favorite music, my bands are Kentango, um, dangling, participle, and objing.
00:53:00.749 --> 00:53:02.189
Uh, they're not actually bands.
00:53:02.269 --> 00:53:08.589
Uh that that was just my partner um challenging me to get those three phrases in the podcast, so I've done that now.
00:53:08.989 --> 00:53:17.789
Um, finishing off, Time Tam or Tim Tam or Anzac.
00:53:18.269 --> 00:53:19.629
Oh, I'm a Tim Tam man.
00:53:19.789 --> 00:53:20.189
Yeah.
00:53:20.509 --> 00:53:21.149
All right.
00:53:21.629 --> 00:53:23.069
Thanks so much for joining us, Ben.
00:53:23.149 --> 00:53:24.509
It's been a really good conversation.
00:53:24.669 --> 00:53:29.229
Uh, it we absolutely know it's it's an Achilles heel, it's a stock gap in the industry.
00:53:29.309 --> 00:53:32.909
I don't think anybody knows how to fix it, um, but we really appreciate what you do.
00:53:33.069 --> 00:53:33.549
Thank you very much.
00:53:33.869 --> 00:53:34.029
Okay.
00:53:34.589 --> 00:53:34.989
Alright.
00:53:35.149 --> 00:53:35.869
Thanks, guys.
00:53:36.029 --> 00:53:39.469
And uh yeah, keep going with the sustainable building.
00:53:39.789 --> 00:53:40.269
We'll try.
00:53:40.669 --> 00:53:41.069
Thanks, Ben.
00:53:41.229 --> 00:53:41.709
See you, mate.
00:53:43.789 --> 00:53:44.989
Thanks again for tuning in.
00:53:45.069 --> 00:53:46.429
Your support means the world.
00:53:46.669 --> 00:53:53.629
If you want to stay ahead of the curve, make sure you hit subscribe so you don't miss our upcoming episodes, webinars, and events.
00:53:53.869 --> 00:54:00.269
And for even more insights, tools, and industry updates, join our mailing list at www.dsba.com.au.
00:54:00.509 --> 00:54:02.429
It's the best way to stay connected.
00:54:02.829 --> 00:54:11.229
Got an idea or a topic you'd love us to cover, drop us a line at hello at dsba.com.au we're always.
00:54:11.629 --> 00:54:12.589
And that's it from us.
00:54:12.669 --> 00:54:14.909
Until next time, keep building better.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:05.679
Welcome to the Sustainable Builder Jack, the podcast that gives you the confidence to build high-performing sustainable homes.
00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:10.880
We're here to cut through the noise with honest conversations from the front lines of the industry.
00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:16.559
Talking with builders, designers, consultants, and the change makers driving a more sustainable future.
00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:21.920
Whether you're on the tools, behind the drawings, or just curious about what makes a home truly sustainable, you're in the right place.
00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:27.039
Get comfy, get curious, and let's have a yak about the future of building better.
00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.079
The info shared in this podcast is the icing on the cake.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:31.839
Sweet but not substantial.
00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:37.200
For the real deal, tap into the wisdom of experts who can provide advice on your specific situation.
00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:39.359
Stay sharp and say sustainable.
00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:47.759
We'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we meet today and pay our respects to elders past, present, and emerging.
00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:49.679
G'day folks.
00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:52.560
Now, on today's podcast, we caught up with Ben Barden.
00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:57.520
Ben is the CEO of the NAA or the National Australian Apprenticeships Association.
00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:03.439
These guys are the peak agency representing network providers for Australian Apprenticeship Support Services.
00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:11.920
Now, we've spoken many times on the podcast over the past few years about labour shortages in particular and how we can get more of the youth involved in the industry.
00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:17.519
So in True Yak Form, we started out trying to be slow and steady, and as always, that lasts about five minutes.
00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:22.159
Look, Ben is extremely knowledgeable, and we did bleed him for information.
00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:31.359
We spoke about pathways, education, immigration, eligibility, remuneration, retention, and anything else you can think of, essentially.
00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:35.280
There's lots of different models and pathways in the various different states.
00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:44.560
So we touched on state and federal government influences and in order to try and you know to try and explain and understand what the differences are between the states.
00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:55.920
We also got into the pressures being put on the industry to deliver so many homes and how apprentices are such a huge part of that puzzle, not only the current puzzle, but the future puzzle that we're all facing as well.
00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:58.239
Then we had a little bit of a chat about AI.
00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:06.079
AI got to mention, and we touched on how this may change the industry with respect to education and more importantly, possibly assisting with the shortfall on demand.
00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:08.240
Look, Ben was a pleasure to chat with.
00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:10.879
We have been looking to talk to him for quite a while.
00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:12.960
He's a very, very busy man, but we did.
00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:14.240
I hope you enjoyed this, guys.
00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:15.599
This is a good listen.
00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:18.000
Right, oh welcome, Ben.
00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:18.879
Thanks for joining us today.
00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:20.240
It's good to have you on, Matt.
00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:21.439
Thanks, Brian.
00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:22.319
Uh it's good to be here.
00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:22.639
Right.
00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:25.439
So look, as we do, Ben, we start off with every guest.
00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:26.560
Let's have a chat about Ben.
00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:27.439
Where's Ben from?
00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:28.240
Where did you come from?
00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:29.439
How did you get here, Matt?
00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:30.719
Tell us all about you.
00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:31.759
Oh, wow.
00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:35.840
Um, well, um, from London originally, as you can probably tell from my accent.
00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:41.840
Um, I came over to Australia as a young man, um uh 22 years old.
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:43.680
I've moved to regional New South Wales.
00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:46.800
So I'm based out of Bathurst in regional New South Wales.
00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:56.240
Had four years in construction um as a painter and decorator, um, and then was able to get a part-time teaching job in TAFE.
00:02:56.719 --> 00:03:13.120
Um uh and um yeah, moved on from there, went and got into vocational education training in 1919, um, and ran a group training company for a decade, uh, which is where you hire um apprentices and lease them out to host employers.
00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:25.840
I did that in regional New South Wales, and so I've employed about five and a half thousand apprentices over the years, and um, and so that's the kind of uh basis on which I I draw my experience.
00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:44.560
Um, but for the last 10 years or so, I've been um uh running the National Um uh Australian Apprenticeships Association, and uh we work with um government and with the department to try and make the apprenticeship system work as optimally as we can.
00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:54.000
So that's a that's a podd history um without without too many um deviations into uh into the personal journey I've had to get to this point.
00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:54.240
Yeah.
00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:56.960
Were you in China for a while or no?
00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:06.240
No, um uh I did I did um set up a consulting business and do some work with the uh vocational training council in Hong Kong.
00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:07.360
Oh uh that's right.
00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:13.520
And I did set up the London Apprenticeship Company along the way.
00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:23.439
Um so I went back and uh which is a group training style entity uh when we launched in the global financial crisis, which was brave.
00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:24.959
Uh but it's still going.
00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:27.040
So that's good.
00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:31.680
It's a similar sort of model to the one that we use uh for GTOs over here in Australia.
00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:32.800
Okay, nice.
00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:37.519
And Ben, tell us about the National Australian Apprenticeships Association.
00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:38.639
Yeah, what what is it?
00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:40.720
Is it a government body or uh is it?
00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:51.519
No, no, it's uh it's a member-based association, and the uh the members are the organizations that sign up and support all of the apprentices and trainees in Australia.
00:04:51.920 --> 00:05:06.160
So there's a training contract that has to be entered into, and uh my members go and um physically go and check out the workplace, make sure that it's suitable, that the supervisor is appropriately trained and has the right qualifications.
00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:31.439
Um, and then they take the uh apprentice and the um and the employer through the obligations of the training contract, they physically sign the paperwork, and then there are a range of uh supports that are offered uh from helping people make uh do their claims for incentive payments, which is really important at the moment, particularly for apprentices.
00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:42.560
Um, and um uh and there's uh uh there's uh additional mentoring support uh for certain uh apprentices that and trainees that are doing it tough and need additional help.
00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:42.959
Yeah.
00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:45.680
So your members are the GTOs?
00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.519
No, they're the Apprentice Connect Australia providers.
00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:52.399
So Okay, you're gonna have to explain that for us now.
00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:52.879
Sorry.
00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:55.279
Okay, so let's who's involved?
00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:56.319
Who's the stakeholders?
00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:57.360
Let's clarify that first.
00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:05.360
So the stakeholders are uh what what used to be called Axe Apprenticeship Centers, um, and they've gone through various names.
00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:11.839
They've um the contract's been in place since 1998, um, and it's funded by the Commonwealth.
00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:17.120
Um, and there there are currently 10 organizations that provide the service nationally.
00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:24.160
Um, and so employers have got a choice um of uh which which provider they they want to use.
00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:32.720
Um and they phone up an apprentice connect um provider and they'll come to them they'll come to the business and sign up sign up the apprentice.
00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:40.480
And in fact, if there's one message about how do you navigate the apprenticeship system, it's phone up your apprentice connect provider, they'll tell you.
00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:44.079
Because it's complicated and it's different in each jurisdiction, yeah.
00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:44.720
Okay.
00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:45.839
Right.
00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:51.040
So for I guess let's start at the start.
00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:55.439
I'm 16 years old and I'm I'm button heads with teachers.
00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:56.079
Yeah.
00:06:56.319 --> 00:06:57.279
Where where do I go?
00:06:57.439 --> 00:06:58.800
Or how do I like this?
00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:03.120
Well, of course, um sorry, that's a very that's a very blank question.
00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:06.560
But yeah, like final pathway company.
00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:15.519
People, people, you know, those those sorts of um students would go to their uh go to their mum and dad and say, Look, I'm sick of school, I want to leave school.
00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:22.160
Um and the parents would go, Well, you you could you you you can only leave school if you're gonna get an apprenticeship.
00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:29.199
And um you can still do that, but the mandatory school leaving age is now 17 in most most parts of Australia.
00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:49.519
Um, and so yeah, 15 years ago, about half of young uh half the people who started an apprenticeship did it when they were 15 or 16, and then um a significant proportion when they finished high school, and then uh a number of adult apprentices starting later in life.
00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:51.600
It's changed over the last few years.
00:07:51.759 --> 00:08:07.439
So if you're a 16-year-old, um usually uh more often than not you stay on at school now, um uh unhappily, uh in some instances, and then uh and then try and get a try and pick up an apprenticeship when you when you finish.
00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:22.480
Um so you know, people uh a lot of a lot of school students will do school-based apprenticeships, but they're primarily 85% of them are traineeships, and they're kind of driven by the what the school can offer.
00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:29.439
Um, and they don't often um it's not often a pathway into a full apprenticeship.
00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:32.960
Um it is sometimes, but but uh not often.
00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:43.039
So the short answer is uh most people stick at school and start an apprenticeship when they um when they're 17 or 18 once they've left school.
00:09:04.980 --> 00:09:07.940
But so what what is a school-based apprenticeship?
00:09:08.259 --> 00:09:16.180
And how could, you know, like a lot of potential listeners or employers, uh, how could they sort of tap into that?
00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:28.980
Um well, the best thing for employers to do is to have links with their local schools, particularly the ones that have um a vocational stream um in their in their school offering.
00:09:29.220 --> 00:09:39.379
And the school-based apprenticeships uh or school-based traineeships are often in things like hospitality and uh things that can be offered within the school.
00:09:39.460 --> 00:09:53.139
Um and they involve some work placements, so schools will be reaching out to employers, and it's a really good way for an employer to get a sense of um who the best potential um candidates are once they leave school.
00:09:53.379 --> 00:10:06.019
Um, so yeah, engaging with your local school is always a good idea, particularly if you know that you're going to be taking on um uh that the local schools are offering stuff that's related to the vocation that you're in.
00:10:06.259 --> 00:10:08.580
Um yes.
00:10:08.820 --> 00:10:12.019
So is that what's commonly referred to as a pre-app?
00:10:13.060 --> 00:10:14.659
No, they're they're slightly different.
00:10:14.820 --> 00:10:26.899
Um pre-apprenticeships are shorter, shorter courses, um, and they usually have a longer um work placement component as part of their pre-apprentip.
00:10:27.060 --> 00:10:31.860
And sometimes they involve the TAFE College, the local TAFE College coming down and working with the school.
00:10:32.019 --> 00:10:40.500
Sometimes they can be delivered in the school, but they've generally got a longer, longer um uh period of work placement.
00:10:40.659 --> 00:10:55.139
And pre-apprentips are a really good way for young people to find out whether they like a um like a particular vocation, um, whether they actually got the aptitude for it, whether they can see themselves doing it for an extended period.
00:10:55.379 --> 00:11:02.019
Because as you know, um a full trade apprenticeship still takes um on average three and a half to four years to get through.
00:11:02.100 --> 00:11:06.180
So you've really got to love the work um and really want to work in the industry.
00:11:06.259 --> 00:11:06.419
Yeah.
00:11:06.659 --> 00:11:07.539
It's more than that, though.
00:11:07.620 --> 00:11:08.899
Like three and a half to four years.
00:11:08.980 --> 00:11:10.580
That's that's just a start.
00:11:10.659 --> 00:11:12.580
You're gonna do it for a very long time.
00:11:12.980 --> 00:11:13.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:11:14.019 --> 00:11:14.500
That's right.
00:11:14.659 --> 00:11:21.539
I was um I was watching something uh about Master Craftsman in Japan, so one of the oldest companies in the world.
00:11:21.620 --> 00:11:26.259
They've had 41 family generations running this one business.
00:11:27.060 --> 00:11:31.620
And uh the carpenters there um spend a lifetime developing their craft.
00:11:31.779 --> 00:11:45.700
And after they finish their basic apprenticeship, um they've thought the the the second phase of the apprenticeship, they choose one tool, um, such as a planer, and uh they spend 20 years getting to be the master planer.
00:11:45.940 --> 00:11:49.060
Well, um that's that's the super craft.
00:11:49.139 --> 00:11:52.899
Um, you know, they they're building Shinto temples and those sorts of things.
00:11:53.060 --> 00:11:56.419
So that's um that that's taking it to a whole new level.
00:11:56.580 --> 00:12:22.899
But yeah, the point you make is right, you know, people have got to want to know that they're gonna want to do that um that type of work, but they find it fulfilling, they like to work with their hands, uh, they like the sense of um fulfillment when they look back at what they've built in a day and go, shit, yeah, I really, I really put in a good day there, and I've got a sense of um sense of completion about the you know what's um that's a day well spent.
00:12:23.060 --> 00:12:26.820
I didn't just sit in an office and you know send emails.
00:12:27.539 --> 00:12:29.940
A lot of them want to do that nowadays, though, don't they?
00:12:30.740 --> 00:12:34.580
Uh well, possibly fewer and fewer with um AI.
00:12:34.740 --> 00:12:46.580
Um you know, those are the types of jobs that are gonna be uh the white-collar jobs um, and particularly if you've been to university, those are the ones that are gonna be most disrupted in this next wave of of AI that we're gonna see.
00:12:46.740 --> 00:13:00.740
So a lot of um young people are reconsidering uh what what's gonna be a really good career path and what's not gonna be quite so disrupted by the new technologies that are coming down the pipeline incredibly quickly.
00:13:00.899 --> 00:13:01.460
Yeah.
00:13:02.340 --> 00:13:02.580
Yeah.
00:13:02.820 --> 00:13:52.500
Can I just can I just touch on so a few things mentioned there that I my experience was just different, so like the idea of liking a job when you first start it, it's just I don't think that's I think it's be so rare in in a lot of instances, especially as a carpenter, I didn't I didn't necessarily like it, you know, waking up every morning and you know, going out and I started on a Saturday in you know the on the hills of Victoria out in um past Broadford, if you're familiar familiar with the area, but yeah, um freezing cold, but I grew to love it and and I I think it was just a I think there's a real commitment issue with in the society these days that people just don't have that just commitment to okay, I'm gonna pursue a path.
00:13:52.820 --> 00:14:02.340
And and to Brian's point, I'm not sure that for some people, yeah, the path does last long, but for me now I've been I've been not a carpenter for longer than I was a carpenter.
00:14:02.419 --> 00:14:09.139
I was I was really only a carpenter 10 years and progressed you know into you know site management and and whatever.
00:14:09.299 --> 00:14:25.620
So it's a great I mean the trade generally is a I I and now I look back on being a carpenter just as one of the best things I've ever done with my life because I feel like I'm it just taught me so much about life and just even about being useful around the house.
00:14:25.779 --> 00:14:35.779
I you know, I'd be useless trying to make money as a carpenter, but I'm useful and you know impress the wife at times, which keeps keeps um the marriage happy.
00:14:36.019 --> 00:14:47.700
So I yeah, I I sort of challenge the the the typical sort of I mean I think the world's got to this place where you know all these kids just have to enjoy every day.
00:14:47.779 --> 00:14:53.060
Like there's there's a real fulfillment in doing something that's challenging.
00:14:53.379 --> 00:15:08.740
Yeah, I um I'm not down on the kids for uh wanting to get some uh instant rewards, uh because you know, the intergenerational uh kind of offer that they've got now is a pretty raw deal by comparison to the the deal that our generation had.
00:15:08.980 --> 00:15:18.980
So um uh I in the research that we did when I was on the Skills Board in New South Wales, um, the main thing is that there's a deal, right?
00:15:19.139 --> 00:15:22.019
It's like I know that the apprentice wages are low.
00:15:22.100 --> 00:15:24.659
Um, I know that I'm gonna have entry-level work.
00:15:24.820 --> 00:15:42.259
As long as you, as the employer, look look after your side of the deal, that is, expose me to um work when I'm ready to do it, um, you know, pay me accurately and on time, uh, and um provide kind of supervision that encourages me to learn the new skills.
00:15:42.340 --> 00:15:49.539
And because most of these skills, as you would know, Simon, from your time um was are learned on the job.
00:15:49.700 --> 00:15:57.620
And by doing them, not uh, you know, when you go to TAFE, you get the underpinning knowledge, you get that kind of understanding of why it's done that way.
00:15:57.779 --> 00:16:01.779
But 85% of the time, the the skills are learned on the job.
00:16:01.940 --> 00:16:05.220
And as you build your skill base, you expect the recognition.
00:16:05.379 --> 00:16:10.100
I want to work on these sorts of things, you know, in your third and fourth year, just leave me alone to do that.
00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:12.500
Don't don't criticize me for doing that.
00:16:12.740 --> 00:16:14.180
I'm actually pretty good at it now.
00:16:14.419 --> 00:16:28.100
And so I I think, but but it is uh, you know, the the old adage of get a get a trade behind you is still a really good advice from a parent to to their child because um it can take you in all sorts of different pathways.
00:16:28.259 --> 00:16:34.580
And if you're going to university, you would expect to have five or six different types of careers after you leave that.
00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:38.259
You you know, the job for life has has disappeared.
00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:44.419
So um, you know, uh you look at it and think, well, this would be a really good start to my career.
00:16:44.580 --> 00:17:07.700
When I get sick of it, or when I want to come off the tools, there are plenty of ways of getting into project management, site management, the um running your own business is often a pathway that people take, or or just going and doing you know, taking the skills that they've learned and understanding about how the work how construction works to do something else, you know, and um uh become a podcaster, perhaps.
00:17:07.940 --> 00:17:13.619
Um you know that that that isn't a unit in your carpentry um training qualification, is it?
00:17:13.700 --> 00:17:14.659
Yeah, no.
00:17:15.379 --> 00:17:24.339
So can I I'm gonna take a little bit of a step back for a second just in case there is any young people listening to this, or maybe we become famous and they start presenting this podcast in schools.
00:17:25.059 --> 00:17:49.299
Um so to the best of my knowledge, there's 11 base apprenticeships available across the country, and then there's some ATPs as well, which are advanced technical pathways, which are not necessarily apprenticeships, but to the best of my knowledge, you're carpentry plumbing, electrical, civil construction, bricklaying, cabinetry making, joinery, painting, plastering, tiling, roof and roof plumbing, concrete, and anything, glazing is in there as well.
00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:55.140
I think I think that's the eleven that's the base apprentices for this industry as such, for the construction industry.
00:17:56.339 --> 00:17:56.660
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:56.819 --> 00:18:06.500
Yeah, you've yeah ATPs, there's construction management, design and drafting, I think, is surveying in there as well, and then air conditioning and refrigeration drops into that as well.
00:18:06.819 --> 00:18:20.259
So there's plenty of pathways, like there's there's plenty of trades, and even if you don't like one, once you're in the industry, and like right now, man, it's I would prefer to be a carpenter right now than a builder, to be honest.
00:18:22.180 --> 00:18:22.660
That's for sure.
00:18:22.900 --> 00:18:23.779
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:24.019 --> 00:18:25.859
Yeah, so it's it's prime time.
00:18:26.740 --> 00:18:28.339
Yeah, for construction, that's right.
00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:38.099
And um, but it's it's broader than that because uh yeah, when I ran the group training company, we had 127 vocations that we we had apprentices and trainees in 127.
00:18:38.500 --> 00:18:46.259
Um, but across the whole economy, um, you can do a traineeship or an apprenticeship and uh nearly a thousand qualifications.
00:18:46.579 --> 00:18:58.500
Um and so that that sort of integrated work-based learning model where you learn primarily on the job and then you go to TAFE or another registered training organization to learn your underpinning knowledge.
00:18:58.660 --> 00:19:04.660
Um, that's got really broad support across uh and and it goes to how people like to learn.
00:19:04.819 --> 00:19:20.339
Um, if you like to learn by doing, if you like to learn with your hands, um it's a really good pathway as opposed to you know learning in in a kind of academic environment with books and um you know the um working on a computer.
00:19:20.579 --> 00:19:24.819
If that's how you like to learn, then probably university pathway is better.
00:19:25.059 --> 00:19:31.940
But if um if you like to learn by doing, then the vocational pathways are really broad across Australia at the moment.
00:19:32.019 --> 00:19:32.259
Yeah.
00:19:32.740 --> 00:19:33.700
It's a great system.
00:19:33.859 --> 00:19:34.099
Yeah.
00:19:34.259 --> 00:19:48.099
And uh but it goes to your point, I guess, that um you don't have to have you you can move between them um if the first uh if the first vocation that you try isn't exactly right for you.
00:19:48.180 --> 00:20:02.259
Um if you find tiling um too hard on your knees and working in cold spaces too much, maybe you want to think, well, if only I'd practice my maths better, I might I could be a Sparky.
00:20:04.660 --> 00:20:14.339
Uh Ben, I I was fascinated by the way you really simply and maybe I overlooked, uh really simply articulated okay.
00:20:14.420 --> 00:20:22.259
If you if you prefer learning, you know, online or by reading, you take this pathway, or if you prefer learning by doing, take this.
00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:25.299
What would what's your advice to a young person?
00:20:25.539 --> 00:20:33.059
Is that sort of what should a young person be focused on early in their career?
00:20:33.380 --> 00:20:38.900
Yeah, I think I think it's a question that doesn't get asked enough or inquired enough uh at school.
00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:46.339
Um, you know, I think how there's a recognition um that uh people learn in different ways.
00:20:46.500 --> 00:20:50.500
Um, some people are kinesthetic learners, some people as as we went through.
00:20:50.660 --> 00:20:58.579
Um but most teachers uh are have come through the academic pathway, and then some of them have become careers advisors.
00:20:58.740 --> 00:21:07.220
And so that and some schools are set up um to be measured by how many, what percentage of people they get to university.
00:21:07.299 --> 00:21:09.059
So that's the kind of mindset.
00:21:09.220 --> 00:21:15.059
What they don't do frequently enough is to say, okay, um, let's have a look at how you like to learn.
00:21:15.140 --> 00:21:23.779
Oh, well, maybe, maybe you're you're better suited for an artistic strand in school, or maybe you're better suited for a vocational strand in school.
00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:33.700
Um, and yet uh, you know, um there are many schools that do um have a significant proportion of their students doing vocational study.
00:21:33.940 --> 00:21:40.579
So, you know, institutional it the the way in which we assess that is not nationally consistent.
00:21:40.660 --> 00:21:42.339
It's kind of school by school.
00:21:42.579 --> 00:22:10.819
And um uh yeah, I I think if I was going to change one thing about the school system, I'd I'd have um that understanding of uh how different students like to learn inculcated through the whole of their um their their experience at school so that the advice that they're given and the options that they can try, like work experience, you know, go and go and try in the school holidays, go and try working with this with this firm.
00:22:10.980 --> 00:22:14.500
Um uh that that can be a really meaningful.
00:22:14.819 --> 00:22:19.700
You can you can either think, oh, I really love this, or I could grow to love it, like you did, son.
00:22:20.180 --> 00:22:22.980
Um Or uh no, it's not for me.
00:22:23.140 --> 00:22:29.380
Um I think I think getting that understanding early on is really um would be really advantageous.
00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:29.779
Yeah.
00:22:30.099 --> 00:22:30.660
I don't know.
00:22:31.620 --> 00:22:31.940
No.
00:22:32.339 --> 00:22:33.299
I I I don't know.
00:22:33.460 --> 00:22:35.700
I'm I'm I'm really mixed on this at the moment.
00:22:35.779 --> 00:22:38.019
I think our education system is broken.
00:22:38.099 --> 00:22:39.140
I think it's very broken.
00:22:39.299 --> 00:22:46.099
I think we are we're basically changing I don't know if I want to go here, do I, Simon?
00:22:46.579 --> 00:22:59.299
I don't know if you do you're you're obviously right in in amongst it, Brian, you know, with young kids and you know going through this sort of journey, um seeing it up close and personal.
00:22:59.620 --> 00:23:13.620
But it it does sort of make sense if you if you determine the objective of a young person between ages of well pr under 25, you'd you say under 30, you're you're let's say under 25, your objective is to learn.
00:23:13.779 --> 00:23:16.900
And okay, let's call it two pathways of learning.
00:23:16.980 --> 00:23:27.299
I mean, I'm sure there's micro pathways as well, but it's not like you don't spend enough time at school and get to know teachers well enough that they can sort of put a profile together.
00:23:27.380 --> 00:23:33.460
I'm sure they've got profiles on each student that that understanding could be more uh communicated.
00:23:33.539 --> 00:23:35.620
Um, I think that's where the disconnect is.
00:23:35.779 --> 00:23:36.740
I think Yeah, yeah.
00:23:36.900 --> 00:23:47.859
What we used to do at the group training company is we'd take a tri-a-trade um uh project to each school each year in our region, uh the about 30 or 40 schools that we went to each year.
00:23:48.180 --> 00:24:04.819
And um we would get the apprentices um who had been at that school the previous year to come back and um talk with the students about what it's really like, and then we'd set up these different bays so that people could, you know, practice some of the core hand skills.
00:24:04.900 --> 00:24:14.500
Um and um, you know, and I I used to I used to uh man the the painting bay, and you could tell uh if people just had an aptitude for it.
00:24:14.660 --> 00:24:16.420
You can you you can tell pretty quick.
00:24:16.500 --> 00:24:19.299
And they and it was like, oh yeah, actually I'm pretty good at this.
00:24:19.460 --> 00:24:22.019
And that sort of that's a positive reinforcement.
00:24:22.180 --> 00:24:44.019
But the conversations that um students had with, because they remembered that person from last year when they were a pain in the ass in the playground, or they were, you know, they were potentially a bit of a um a troublemaker because they they weren't enjoying being at school, and then suddenly there they are in their in their overalls, you know, getting on well um in their career.
00:24:44.180 --> 00:24:51.460
And um that that those kinds of peer-to-peer conversations can be really powerful in terms of oh, yeah, well, maybe I should do that.
00:24:51.539 --> 00:24:54.420
Yeah, all right.
00:24:54.660 --> 00:25:00.660
So let's go to uh where our industry's at with respect to numbers, if we can, Ben.
00:25:00.819 --> 00:25:01.140
Yeah.
00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:05.220
So we're way down, we know we're way down, and we're gonna be even worse.
00:25:05.299 --> 00:25:10.180
Like next year, we need way more, and by 2029, we're in a bit of we're in a lot of trouble.
00:25:10.339 --> 00:25:15.859
And I don't think I have my reservations about what's happening in government at the moment with just bringing more people in.
00:25:15.940 --> 00:25:23.140
That's not that's not the answer, especially people that are going and doing cert twos and cert threes, because they're not fixing our problem, they're absolutely not.
00:25:23.299 --> 00:25:25.460
So I think that we need to look at home first.
00:25:25.620 --> 00:25:27.380
So let's talk about uh how many.
00:25:27.539 --> 00:25:32.019
So we've 115,000 odd apprentices at the moment.
00:25:32.180 --> 00:25:35.779
Um, can you tell us about attrition rates and numbers and where we're at?
00:25:36.099 --> 00:25:37.299
Sure, sure, sure.
00:25:37.460 --> 00:25:52.819
So through the pandemic, there were some really um uh generous incentives to take on apprentices and trainees, and we got up to about 428,000 apprentices and trainees, which is about 3.5% of the overall workforce.
00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:56.819
Um, they were very generous, unaffordable uh in normal times.
00:25:56.980 --> 00:26:03.380
I think that program costs somewhere around seven billion dollars um in wage subsidies, but it was very successful.
00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:10.579
Um, and we're just seeing the last of those trades, um, trade qualification uh uh finish now.
00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:15.059
Um so a lot of those started in 2020, 2021.
00:26:15.460 --> 00:26:22.099
Um, the program finished in 2022, and so we're just seeing the tail end of them come through.
00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:31.700
Uh the latest figures nationally are that um there's a hundred uh two hundred and ninety-seven thousand apprentices and trainees.
00:26:31.940 --> 00:26:38.500
Um and there of those, about 80,000 are uh trainees.
00:26:38.740 --> 00:26:49.059
So trainees have um the the government pulled incentives for employers of trainees, and they went from about 180,000 down to 80,000.
00:26:49.380 --> 00:26:52.339
But for the construction industry, you you want two things.
00:26:52.500 --> 00:27:01.539
You want a smooth flow of um skills across the full range of those um vocations that you outlined before.
00:27:01.779 --> 00:27:14.019
And um you don't you certainly don't want a gap of a year or two where people don't take enough on, and you want for it to both meet the the increase in the size of the workforce.
00:27:14.180 --> 00:27:30.180
So since the end of COVID, um we've gone from a workforce of uh yeah, our workforce has grown from somewhere around 12.5 million to 14.1 million, so nearly a 20% increase since COVID.
00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:33.859
But since COVID, 20%, yeah, yeah.
00:27:34.180 --> 00:27:48.180
So actually, um, you know, we've we've been growing the economy really um the the migration is has actually helped in that regard, helped grow the workforce and grow the overall size of the economy.
00:27:48.420 --> 00:28:30.720
Um but uh uh the the number of apprentices hasn't kept um pace with the growth of the labour force overall, and and it hasn't kept pace with the ambitious targets that we've got for um renewable energy, um electricians, and um and the the transition, that's sort of um the the government's overarching plan of the future made in Australia.
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:37.600
We're not really on track to deliver uh enough tradies for for for those ambitious targets.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:40.160
It's scary.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:45.279
Yep, it's a scary stat to decline so greatly.
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:50.160
While while the while we've grown 20% overall as a workforce.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:50.960
That's national.
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:51.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:54.000
Yeah, that's national.
00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:59.920
Like I don't I'm gonna pick a fight here, but I don't really care.
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:05.279
If you look at what we're we're bringing in vast immigration or yeah, immigration.
00:29:05.360 --> 00:29:06.559
So I'm one of them.
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:07.840
I am an immigrant.
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:13.279
I came in under I and I used my carpentry apprenticeships, so I was a qualified carpenter.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:20.000
But speaking out of Torn here, the vast majority that are coming in right now don't have a qualification.
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:32.480
No, most uh uh I there was a a short I don't want to get too much into the debate, and it's not I'm not an expert in this area, but there was a big influx of about 500,000 in that first year after COVID.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:36.320
A lot of those were international students um that were coming for the university system.
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:37.519
They come and they've gone.
00:29:37.840 --> 00:29:38.960
So our biggest export.
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:39.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:40.080 --> 00:29:42.880
Right, it's about our third biggest export after after mining.
00:29:43.120 --> 00:29:48.320
So, you know, we wouldn't we wouldn't look at any other industry and say, oh, you're the our third biggest export.
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:49.120
We hate you.
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:51.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely not.
00:29:51.600 --> 00:30:04.960
Um so that there, you know, you've got to you've got to differentiate between temporary skilled migration, um, the student cohort coming in, um, and and and how it's and how it's settled down in the last couple of years.
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:06.880
So it's around 200,000 now, I think.
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:11.360
Net net migration's about um 200,000 um per annum.
00:30:11.600 --> 00:30:14.480
Anyway, that's been the way that we have grown the economy.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:15.920
So it's a double-edged sword.
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:25.360
If you if you cut that off, it's um that all of those, you know, because unemployment has stayed at in the fours, it's not that that it's not putting up unemployment.
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:42.160
Um, but my you know, the the position that we come from is uh that you should um ensure uh when you're thinking about temporary skilled migration that we've exhausted all opportunities for young people in this country to take a vocational pathway first.
00:30:42.320 --> 00:30:55.360
Like don't, you know, and and you can see it happening in some hospitality trades, chefs and cooks and that sort of stuff, where people will um bring in temporary skilled migrants to be able to work in the kitchens and so forth.
00:30:55.519 --> 00:31:01.440
Where uh has have those opportunities been exhausted with the local community first?
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:04.320
So, you know, there's a balance in all of these things.
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:04.799
Yeah.
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.200
What do you think about attrition rates?
00:31:07.360 --> 00:31:12.160
Is is is there something in that, or is that just something that's like it is what it is?
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:16.799
Yeah, attrition rates have gone up slightly over the last um decade.
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:28.240
There's some nuances in the way that you look at these things because um the attrition rates from say 2012 included a large number, a third of them were existing worker traineeships.
00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:42.559
And um they uh uh uh you know in 2012 we had 512,000 apprentices and trainees, but a third of them were existing worker trainees, and they were they had a much higher um completion rate.
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:48.960
Now the funding for them disappeared, um, and so they're no longer in the picture.
00:31:49.120 --> 00:31:56.640
And when people say, oh, well, we used to get 60% of people through their apprenticeship and traineeship, they were in those numbers.
00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:08.720
Uh now it's about uh 55% completion for trainees and uh about 50% for 48 to 50 percent for uh uh for trades.
00:32:09.120 --> 00:32:18.960
Um the time that trades was higher was when it was an indenture ship, where it was very difficult for young people to get out of uh a trade.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:22.480
But the sorts of things that we're looking at now is what happens next.
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:36.320
Because there's a lot of people in construction, as you know, that are third-year apprentices, they're still on relatively low wages, and um the they're working on a big project, and and the other guys are going, Well, look, we know you're good.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.840
Um, why don't you just come over here and earn three times as much?
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:47.680
Uh still working in the trade, you've still got a pathway, we recognize the skills you've developed, you just haven't finished your your apprenticeship.
00:32:47.840 --> 00:33:01.440
So there's quite a bit of that, and we're looking at the kind of employment outcomes that happen for those people and the wage uplift, how much more they're earning um than they would have earned if they hadn't done their apprenticeship.
00:33:01.600 --> 00:33:03.440
And the apprentices stack up really well.
00:33:03.600 --> 00:33:14.480
They stack up really well by comparison to doing a just a course at TAFE, um, and they stack up really well against uh people going into university.
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:20.720
One of the things that isn't talked about so much is the four-year completion rate in universities is 42%.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:34.000
Um, uh, you know, we would always like to get more people through, and the sort, you know, there's a whole set of complex reasons why people don't.
00:33:34.080 --> 00:33:36.320
It's a long commitment for four years.
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:43.600
Most most people's first job lasts a couple of years, took 2.6 years, I think, is the is the average.
00:33:43.840 --> 00:33:47.279
And so, you know, it's a it's a big undertaking, yeah.
00:33:47.840 --> 00:33:58.720
Ben, what do you say to you know, as your example there, the third year apprentice uh you know, basically ending their apprenticeship and going to work with somebody else for more money?
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:03.120
I I I that could be an opportunity.
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:07.279
I mean, uh if you look at elite sports, I get it's different.
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:18.320
But you know, if you're excelling, any probably any real profession, if you're excelling, that the remuneration will, you know, uh be yeah, we're a free market capitalism.
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:38.479
It's sort of something yeah, that maybe could be a you know, a carrot for a lot of people looking to get in the industry that maybe maybe those that are on the verge of going between university or or a career in the trades, um, it could really excel rather than knowing that they've got this fixed four-year term in front of them.
00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:40.559
I know it can be malleable, but it's not a fixed wage.
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:44.159
That's that's that's the bit I don't get.
00:34:44.319 --> 00:34:50.959
So when you say you they're they're moving somewhere else because of more money and they're stopping their apprentices, they don't need to stop their apprenticeship.
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:59.039
If that if that employer chooses to pay them more, it's up to the apprentice to say, Yeah, no worries, I'll come work for you, but I need to continue my apprenticeship.
00:34:59.279 --> 00:35:02.319
Yeah, there's nothing to say they can't pay them more, absolutely nothing.
00:35:02.479 --> 00:35:04.559
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely.
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:05.839
I completely agree with you.
00:35:05.999 --> 00:35:27.789
And in fact, um, you know, the model is the biggest cost to an employer is when they drop out.
00:35:27.949 --> 00:35:34.029
And so it's like, well, you've just put two or three years worth of uh coaching and supervision into this person.
00:35:34.189 --> 00:35:34.909
Do you really want that?
00:35:35.069 --> 00:35:36.029
They're actually pretty useful.
00:35:36.189 --> 00:35:36.349
Yeah.
00:35:36.669 --> 00:35:38.909
Uh don't you want to pay them above award?
00:35:39.069 --> 00:35:41.789
Um, so yeah, uh, you're right.
00:35:41.869 --> 00:36:04.589
Um, and and the the recent uh junior wage um uh determination uh to basically scrap junior wages and and just have uh a single uh national minimum wage, that will flow through to modern awards and that will have in the next uh after July, it that'll have a big impact on apprentice wages, yeah.
00:36:06.749 --> 00:36:19.389
And uh females taking, I mean, me and Brian are biased you know, being in the construction industry, and obviously it's long um lacked, you know, female representation.
00:36:19.629 --> 00:36:24.989
How is that sort of going, I guess, in percentage increases over the years?
00:36:25.309 --> 00:36:30.109
Yeah, well, um from a very low base, it's getting much better.
00:36:30.189 --> 00:36:32.109
Um, but it was from a very low base.
00:36:32.189 --> 00:36:43.149
Um when you look internationally, uh, about 12 to 15 percent of um construction workers are women, uh trade trade construction workers are women in Europe.
00:36:43.309 --> 00:36:43.629
Yeah.
00:36:43.869 --> 00:36:49.869
Um uh here it was as low as 3% in some of the trades, higher in electrical.
00:36:50.029 --> 00:36:58.029
Um, that has gone with um additional focus areas, it's gone to six or seven percent over the last couple of years.
00:36:58.269 --> 00:37:03.069
And um it goes to the kind of blokey culture that we've experienced.
00:37:03.309 --> 00:37:15.389
Um, and the, you know, um that it's not a welcoming place for a for a lot of women, and a lot of young women are discouraged by their parents when they're at school for, oh, you don't want to go into that.
00:37:15.469 --> 00:37:18.349
That it's you know, you've got all those horrible blokes.
00:37:18.509 --> 00:37:27.709
And um, and then what we do see is that there are a lot of women who go into other jobs and then they in their mid-20s and say, Look, I always wanted to be a chippy.
00:37:27.789 --> 00:37:35.069
Um, and in fact, I'm putting up with this nonsense, um, this kind of blokey nonsense in you know, my hospitality job or whatever.
00:37:35.229 --> 00:37:37.229
Um, no, I'm gonna go and do it anyway.
00:37:37.469 --> 00:37:49.789
And um uh, and what we're finding is that um if you're allocated you by default, you'll get access to a mentor to help you um deal with the sort of male-dominated environment.
00:37:49.949 --> 00:38:01.629
Um, but often it is other female apprentices supporting each other um because you don't want to, you know, what we see is that that that peer support is really important.
00:38:01.949 --> 00:38:07.629
And then there are a lot of young, young builders who uh actually, you know, won't tolerate that.
00:38:07.789 --> 00:38:19.549
It's that that kind of blokey environment that the the the three of us probably put up with um is not actually the optimal way to to run a business or or get the best out of people.
00:38:19.709 --> 00:38:31.789
Um and so if you've got more contemporary employment practices and you just won't put up with sexism and racism and that sort of stuff, um, you're you're actually going to get a better productivity across your whole workforce.
00:38:31.869 --> 00:38:40.269
Um and if you jump on the people who are, you know, bullying and and those sorts of things, um, yep, it's it's a happier workplace for everybody.
00:38:40.509 --> 00:38:58.909
Um so yeah, um it's improving, they get additional supports, there are specialist providers to help them, um, but it's often the peer support which is the most effective to help um young young women, you know, succeed in in traditionally male-dominated areas.
00:38:59.789 --> 00:39:05.869
So um what are the biggest systemic challenges facing you guys at the moment?
00:39:06.109 --> 00:39:10.429
So I know you're lobbying government and you've got a couple of things in in the fire at the moment.
00:39:10.669 --> 00:39:12.989
So where's your biggest challenge coming from?
00:39:13.469 --> 00:39:24.989
Well, the biggest challenge obviously staring us down, um uh staring us down at the moment is the energy shock and how that's going to ripple through the economy over the next um 18 months to two years.
00:39:25.229 --> 00:39:33.549
So our analysis is that the the conflict probably won't be resolved in any meaningful way for a few months, maybe a few years.
00:39:33.709 --> 00:39:49.869
Maybe it'll become a frozen conflict like Gaza, or you know, it could be one of those things that and and so if the straits are blocked for an extended period, then we're gonna have um a constricted um supply of fuel.
00:39:50.109 --> 00:39:57.789
Um and that could flow through, I think the Prime Minister this week, there was a national cabinet meeting um on it this week.
00:39:57.949 --> 00:40:19.949
And by the time this goes to this podcast goes to air, you know, we may well be facing uh level four fuel restrictions, which is a um, you know, rationing of fuel and uh significantly constricted ability to fly places and other other measures that governments need to take when the price of energy goes up for so long.
00:40:20.189 --> 00:40:26.749
So we're we're concerned we're putting a package of potential measures to support apprentices and employers of apprentices.
00:40:27.149 --> 00:40:52.429
Um, if it gets that bad by the time this podcast airs, I'm hoping like the first first and foremost, we were making recommendations around um the apprentices that need to drive diesel youths long distances to get in in regional and remote areas in particular, uh both to get to work, to get to TAFE, and to move between work sites.
00:40:52.829 --> 00:41:03.389
Um, you know, in Northern Territory at the moment, um the um some of those remote communities, diesels at$4.40 a litre this week.
00:41:03.709 --> 00:41:21.629
And um, so if you can think about being on comparatively low wages um and that that that you know filling up your U already costs$150 and now it's going to be$200, that's that's a really significant proportion of your of your disposable income.
00:41:21.869 --> 00:41:26.989
So we're looking we're looking to have some measures to support apprentices and trainees there.
00:41:27.389 --> 00:41:36.749
But um if it stretches out for an extended period, then employers are going to, you know, we'll be there there'll be potential recession.
00:41:36.909 --> 00:41:42.109
And in a recession, you know, construction businesses can often run out of cash.
00:41:42.269 --> 00:41:46.989
Um, their their costs are going up, um, the demand is is coming down.
00:41:47.229 --> 00:42:11.549
So uh, you know, there are a range of incentives that we're recommending to government to, particularly for sectors that haven't been haven't had as much um uh you know, transport and logistics, um, agriculture, they haven't had generous incentives in the same way that um the key apprenticeship program wraps its arms around the um construction industry, for example.
00:42:11.789 --> 00:42:15.629
Yeah, so yeah, that's so that's your biggest challenge at the moment.
00:42:17.309 --> 00:42:23.389
I look I know that HAA and Master Builders are lobbying government as well, with the same like I think these are all going with the same issue.
00:42:23.469 --> 00:42:30.589
Um, and it does need to be spoken about and it does need to be resolved, and there needs to be a plan in place because there's a there's a high probability that will happen.
00:42:30.749 --> 00:42:31.789
There is a high probability.
00:42:32.429 --> 00:42:36.349
Well, yeah, you you you hope for the best, but plan for the worst.
00:42:36.429 --> 00:42:36.749
That's right.
00:42:37.069 --> 00:42:55.549
And um, you know, uh, I'm not sure how old you are, Brian, but when I was in London in uh growing up, you know, the there was the last um uh oil crisis that OPEC did, and uh yeah, it resulted in a three-day week, and and it and then a few years later the winter of discontent where there were power cuts and so forth.
00:42:55.789 --> 00:43:11.869
So um, you know, uh a normal life can be easily disrupted by these kinds of events, and um, we all have to become um economists to understand the inelasticity of demand, you know, those things that we would roll our eyes about at at school.
00:43:12.189 --> 00:43:24.269
But it changed the nation, like the yeah, like England as a whole, and Ireland as a whole at the time, even most of Europe changed its approach to energy efficiency and how they heat and cool their homes and their energy efficiency arms.
00:43:24.349 --> 00:43:25.309
That's where all that came from.
00:43:25.469 --> 00:43:38.029
And that's why they're 15 to 20 years ahead of some parts of the world, we won't name any, but it's why their energy efficiency is so high because their main heating was either through gas or um oil.
00:43:38.909 --> 00:43:39.309
Yeah, oil.
00:43:39.389 --> 00:43:43.069
Oil was the biggest thing, and oil just like it just wasn't available.
00:43:43.389 --> 00:43:45.629
And that's why I built a sustainable home.
00:43:45.709 --> 00:43:54.269
Um, my me personally, you know, um and the the focus on you know energy efficiency first, um, that's that's good.
00:43:54.429 --> 00:43:58.989
And then putting there's a lot of well, you know, uh Australians have voted with their ruse, haven't they?
00:43:59.069 --> 00:44:13.229
They've they've put um four million homes have got solar panels um on them, and uh so we're probably those households are probably better protected from this energy shock than we were um in the last energy shock.
00:44:13.309 --> 00:44:29.709
And uh, and uh a lot of a lot of homes have got home batteries now, um, and so that will smooth out, you know, if you if you pull back, you would be able to um run most of the day on the solar uh on your solar game.
00:44:30.109 --> 00:44:38.109
Um so we're you know we're better we're better prepared in that sense than we were um you know a few decades ago.
00:44:38.269 --> 00:44:38.909
Yeah.
00:44:40.349 --> 00:44:52.669
But it's certainly not gonna help the uptake of i is the problem with the apprenticeship uptake or the uh No, it's the creation, it's primarily the creation of the jobs.
00:44:54.509 --> 00:45:03.229
So if you have a look at what happened through the Boosting Apprenticeship Commencement Program, there's a lot of talk about why don't young people choose this?
00:45:03.389 --> 00:45:06.109
Well, if jobs are created, they do.
00:45:06.589 --> 00:45:10.829
We just ran a$7 billion research project on this, you know.
00:45:11.309 --> 00:45:14.189
We doubled the number of commencements um through the pandemic.
00:45:14.509 --> 00:45:16.589
$7 billion research.
00:45:17.149 --> 00:45:20.989
Oh well, it was the incentive apprenticeships.
00:45:21.469 --> 00:45:25.549
It's like, well, what are the look what are the lessons that we've got from the incentive program?
00:45:26.189 --> 00:45:30.909
The lessons are one, that it works, and two, that it's expensive.
00:45:31.069 --> 00:45:40.029
Um so uh, you know, it this time around, we're facing stagflation, which is you know a stagnant economy with high inflation.
00:45:40.189 --> 00:45:44.989
And you can't just pump money into it because it makes it worse and interest rates go up.
00:45:45.309 --> 00:46:00.989
So um the the measures that are gonna need to be considered now need to be much more targeted, time limited, and um uh but also generous enough so that employers can create the vacancies, uh apprenticeship vacancies that are needed.
00:46:01.229 --> 00:46:18.989
Because I'm sure with AI coming down the down the track that um uh that a lot of people will consider doing something which they they know if they get it behind them, it's gonna give them great, great pathways and meaningful work for the next um you know decade or so.
00:46:19.149 --> 00:46:19.469
Yeah.
00:46:19.869 --> 00:46:23.309
I do think that incentive worked really well, in my opinion.
00:46:23.469 --> 00:46:34.829
Like yeah, I have five apprentices at the moment, two of them are just coming off now as part of their incentive, and there's two more not far behind them, but they're mature age, so three three out of five are mature age.
00:46:34.909 --> 00:46:38.189
You could say they're all mature age because they're not 16 or 17.
00:46:38.429 --> 00:46:41.469
Um they are in their 20s and some in their 30s.
00:46:41.549 --> 00:46:43.629
But for us, I saw the benefit there.
00:46:43.789 --> 00:46:44.429
Absolutely.
00:46:44.669 --> 00:46:49.629
Like those mature age people would not have gone back to doing apprenticeship if the incentive wasn't there for sure.
00:46:49.869 --> 00:46:50.989
Yeah, absolutely for sure.
00:46:51.469 --> 00:46:56.909
You know, what one of the things that was interesting to me, um, you know, because I look at these figures all the time.
00:46:57.149 --> 00:47:05.789
Um, through the pandemic, there were more um adult apprentices than and trainees than there were um a genius.
00:47:05.949 --> 00:47:12.349
So 21 and above um was 51% of the apprentice and trainee cohort for the first time.
00:47:12.589 --> 00:47:20.189
Yeah, but um there is something that was that's a major factor in all of that, and that is that the construction industry was an essential service.
00:47:20.429 --> 00:47:27.549
So when a lot of people had to sit at home, the construction industry was basically a green card, you can go to work during the pandemic.
00:47:27.709 --> 00:47:31.549
So that's it's a big influencing factor, I think.
00:47:31.789 --> 00:47:34.269
So yeah, I think that had a lot of people.
00:47:37.469 --> 00:47:38.509
Yeah, you yeah, exactly.
00:47:38.589 --> 00:47:41.869
Yeah, and straight into construction because it was an essential service and you could go to work.
00:47:42.189 --> 00:47:49.389
And you know, the a lot of people in the health sector, um who were close to requirements, they moved out of the streets.
00:47:49.629 --> 00:47:51.149
They switched across, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:47:51.469 --> 00:48:02.509
And you know, the nursing qualifications uh took a nosedive uh in the in the years afterwards because it's like, oh shit, it's dangerous and hard and not that well paid.
00:48:03.069 --> 00:48:16.509
And um uh and so uh a lot of the people who are looking after us as we're uh aging are the very migrants that people are, you know, it's like, well, yeah, these are the people who are looking to look after you, mate.
00:48:17.389 --> 00:48:25.149
Uh because um Aussie's Aussie's aren't choosing those pathways, so you've got to be realistic about the balance that's achieved across the economy here.
00:48:25.229 --> 00:48:29.709
So yeah, they did bring in an incentive as well, though, for nurses, like literally towards the end of the pandemic.
00:48:29.789 --> 00:48:31.069
That was that was a big push.
00:48:31.629 --> 00:48:31.949
Yeah.
00:48:32.189 --> 00:48:34.669
Um, right, have you anything else, Simon?
00:48:34.829 --> 00:48:36.189
Because I think we're on time.
00:48:36.589 --> 00:48:37.629
No, I think that was good.
00:48:37.709 --> 00:48:39.149
There was great, great insights.
00:48:39.389 --> 00:48:39.629
Yeah.
00:48:40.349 --> 00:48:42.509
I mean, I think it's a it's a major issue.
00:48:42.589 --> 00:48:44.909
I think we could talk about it till the cats come home.
00:48:44.989 --> 00:48:47.549
Yeah, um there's no silver bullet, I don't think.
00:48:47.629 --> 00:48:52.349
Uh like um, you know, you did it's like a lot of these things, you know, they're incremental.
00:48:52.429 --> 00:48:55.389
Uh there are certain policy settings fit for time.
00:48:55.629 --> 00:49:08.509
Um and um uh, you know, the current governments try to shift the um balance of incentives going from employers to apprentices and trainees, and for the ones who get it, um, that's really great.
00:49:08.669 --> 00:49:17.469
Um in your business, Brian, you're probably getting the um uh key apprenticeship program, they might be um in receipt of the key apprenticeship program.
00:49:17.629 --> 00:49:20.669
That gives them 10 grand over the life of their qualification.
00:49:20.749 --> 00:49:21.789
That's really helpful.
00:49:21.949 --> 00:49:23.389
Um, it's really helpful.
00:49:23.949 --> 00:49:37.149
So uh, but you know, in the by the time this podcast goes to where um there'll be a stronger economic case to try and stimulate the employment through these kind of trade pathways.
00:49:37.389 --> 00:49:51.549
Um uh because you know, um comment you've got to keep your commencements going, come what may, because you can't have a year or two years with virtually no commencements because you're buying yourself problems for decades to come.
00:49:51.949 --> 00:49:52.269
Absolutely.
00:49:52.349 --> 00:49:54.669
It's the one child policy in China, isn't it?
00:49:56.189 --> 00:49:58.829
I think we're yeah, yeah, I won't comment on that.
00:49:59.069 --> 00:50:00.669
Um, did I see something?
00:50:00.909 --> 00:50:09.149
I'm sure I saw something in research about um possibly, you know, the uh apprentices have a tool incentive, and they were talking about making that a loan system.
00:50:09.229 --> 00:50:10.509
Is that true or is that rubbish?
00:50:10.829 --> 00:50:12.349
Uh that did happen, yeah.
00:50:12.429 --> 00:50:26.109
But um that happened with the um uh Abbott government came in and turned tools for your trade, which was five and a half thousand bucks at that stage, into um that you could you could take out a loan.
00:50:26.189 --> 00:50:32.669
Um and the loan is up to sort of uh in fact I don't know what it is now, but it's more than 20 grand.
00:50:32.909 --> 00:50:34.829
Um you can you can uh take a loan.
00:50:36.589 --> 00:50:42.989
Yeah, I mean um yeah, I mean it's a bit like oh uh take out a loan for the privilege of doing a job.
00:50:43.069 --> 00:50:43.389
Yeah.
00:50:43.629 --> 00:50:51.869
Um and uh so you know, um there is there are certain situations where it helps and it's a rational thing to do.
00:50:52.029 --> 00:51:13.789
But I think a lot of how the apprenticeship system, you asked that question about systemic system uh changes, a lot of the system was designed for young boys leaving school at 15 and with the assumption that they were going to stay at home for uh two or three years and that the wages would be such that when they were 19 or 20 they could probably move out of home.
00:51:14.269 --> 00:51:31.069
Well, most people start their apprenticeship when they're 18 or 19, and um they're you know uh that there's a big disparity between what they can earn in their apprenticeship if their employer doesn't pay above award wages and what the national minimum wage is now.
00:51:31.309 --> 00:51:38.429
And so it's like, oh shit, I could be earning you know 10 bucks an hour more if I was doing any job on the national minimum wage.
00:51:38.669 --> 00:51:52.189
And so that you know that has a bearing um on on it's it's a rational decision to job shift to something that gives you a better, uh, a better outcome as long as there's a good long-term pathway associated with it.
00:51:52.349 --> 00:51:55.549
So right, oh we'll get into the quick fire questions.
00:51:55.949 --> 00:51:56.669
Oh, okay.
00:51:56.749 --> 00:51:56.989
Yeah.
00:51:57.309 --> 00:51:57.949
You good?
00:51:58.349 --> 00:51:59.149
Yeah, right, yeah.
00:51:59.309 --> 00:52:01.629
Uh who's the most famous person in your phone book?
00:52:02.109 --> 00:52:04.349
Um, yeah, I was having a look through the other day.
00:52:04.429 --> 00:52:07.869
Probably Julia Gillard from when she was the uh education minister.
00:52:09.229 --> 00:52:09.789
That's a good one.
00:52:09.949 --> 00:52:11.709
Uh favourite sporting team?
00:52:12.109 --> 00:52:18.509
Well, I'd have to say um Arsenal just at the moment, now that they're um in second place in the APL.
00:52:18.589 --> 00:52:18.749
Yeah.
00:52:19.069 --> 00:52:21.389
Passive house or passive solar design?
00:52:21.949 --> 00:52:27.869
Yeah, well, I'm in a passive solar design house, which uh designed myself, so yeah.
00:52:28.109 --> 00:52:28.429
Very good.
00:52:28.589 --> 00:52:29.309
Yeah, yeah.
00:52:29.469 --> 00:52:32.029
Uh timber brick or alternative construction?
00:52:32.349 --> 00:52:36.909
Alternative construction, mine straw bath with cob internal walks.
00:52:37.229 --> 00:52:38.269
Oh, how did we miss on that?
00:52:38.349 --> 00:52:39.229
We've got to get you back on.
00:52:39.389 --> 00:52:40.109
Tell us all about it.
00:52:40.589 --> 00:52:43.469
No, we seriously, we've been looking for a straw bell person for a while.
00:52:43.629 --> 00:52:43.869
Yep.
00:52:44.189 --> 00:52:45.709
Oh, well, I can talk about straw bath.
00:52:45.949 --> 00:52:47.229
Did you build it yourself?
00:52:47.549 --> 00:52:48.989
Uh owner builder, yeah.
00:52:49.069 --> 00:52:49.229
Yeah.
00:52:49.389 --> 00:52:50.829
No, we definitely are gonna get you back on.
00:52:50.989 --> 00:52:51.389
Talk about that.
00:52:51.469 --> 00:52:52.349
That's a ripper.
00:52:52.749 --> 00:52:54.269
Uh favorite music.
00:52:54.909 --> 00:53:00.589
Um, favorite music, my bands are Kentango, um, dangling, participle, and objing.
00:53:00.749 --> 00:53:02.189
Uh, they're not actually bands.
00:53:02.269 --> 00:53:08.589
Uh that that was just my partner um challenging me to get those three phrases in the podcast, so I've done that now.
00:53:08.989 --> 00:53:17.789
Um, finishing off, Time Tam or Tim Tam or Anzac.
00:53:18.269 --> 00:53:19.629
Oh, I'm a Tim Tam man.
00:53:19.789 --> 00:53:20.189
Yeah.
00:53:20.509 --> 00:53:21.149
All right.
00:53:21.629 --> 00:53:23.069
Thanks so much for joining us, Ben.
00:53:23.149 --> 00:53:24.509
It's been a really good conversation.
00:53:24.669 --> 00:53:29.229
Uh, it we absolutely know it's it's an Achilles heel, it's a stock gap in the industry.
00:53:29.309 --> 00:53:32.909
I don't think anybody knows how to fix it, um, but we really appreciate what you do.
00:53:33.069 --> 00:53:33.549
Thank you very much.
00:53:33.869 --> 00:53:34.029
Okay.
00:53:34.589 --> 00:53:34.989
Alright.
00:53:35.149 --> 00:53:35.869
Thanks, guys.
00:53:36.029 --> 00:53:39.469
And uh yeah, keep going with the sustainable building.
00:53:39.789 --> 00:53:40.269
We'll try.
00:53:40.669 --> 00:53:41.069
Thanks, Ben.
00:53:41.229 --> 00:53:41.709
See you, mate.
00:53:43.789 --> 00:53:44.989
Thanks again for tuning in.
00:53:45.069 --> 00:53:46.429
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00:53:46.669 --> 00:53:53.629
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00:53:53.869 --> 00:54:00.269
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00:54:00.509 --> 00:54:02.429
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00:54:02.829 --> 00:54:11.229
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00:54:11.629 --> 00:54:12.589
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00:54:12.669 --> 00:54:14.909
Until next time, keep building better.
