00:00:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and smitham welcome to Stuff I Never Told You production of iHeartRadio and for today's classic, since we are now in officially Disability Pride Month, you jumped the gun a little bit, but that's okay, that's great. We talked about this stuff all the time the time, Yes, and we do have some content we're planning around that. But for this classic, I thought it would be a good idea to bring back the book club we did on Demystifying Disability because I thought it was a great, great primer, a lot of excellent information, and yeah, you should read it. If you haven't read it, go read it, go read it. Yes, so please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and look of Stuff WILL Never Told You production of VIR Heart Radio. Fuller Today's book Club. We're talking about Emily Ladoo's award winning twenty twenty one novel Demystifying Disability. What to Know, what to say, and how to be an ally. This is a practical, approachable book filled with quotes from people with all kinds of disabilities, that delves into some basics of talking about disability and actionable steps to improve these discussions. Or just your interactions with people. It also hammers home the point that, like any community, disabled people are not a monolith and are individuals with preferences when it comes to things like terminology. It's a book that doesn't fault you for your past mistakes, but is asking you to do better and get giving you the tools to do so. Not only are there breakdowns of definitions and schools of thought, but also a history, a look into all the ways ableism can manifest, media representations of disability, and ways to be a better ally both outside of and within the disabled community. It tackles complex issues in a way that is easy to digest, shines a light on nuances and differences of thought, and overall just packs so much in Despite its short length, The dow is also clear this is a starting point and gives a lot of references or things to follow up on throughout. I wish I had read it earlier, honestly. Here is a quote from the author about the author, A little about me. I have multiple disabilities, including a physical disability, a hearing disability, and mental health disabilities. I use a wheelchair because I was born with larcen syndrome LS, A joint and muscle disorder that I inherited from my mom Ellen, who also has it. You might think that are both having LS is a tragedy, but we don't. In my humble opinion, it's pretty fantastic to have somebody built into my life who just gets me. And I would say, just go read it, like we're going to go over some of it in here, but as always with these book clubs, we want you to check it out yourself, support office, yourself. But I also think it was it's just a really useful breakdown of a lot of the the ways people run into being too afraid to talk about disability or not knowing quite what to say. Hm. Yes, so go read it.
00:03:48
Speaker 2: Read it. It's not long, it's available in every as it actually found it in several libraries too.
00:03:56
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and it's got cute illustrations.
00:04:00
Speaker 2: Illustrations cover is wonderful mm hmmm, very very approachable. You should definitely read it.
00:04:08
Speaker 1: Yes, it's essentially broken into like topics such as terminology or allyship or media, but it really does. It packs so much in Like when I left after I finished, Oh my gosh, I will absorb so much information. This was great. Yeah. Yeah, so that's kind of the layout of it, but we will go over as we like to do in our book club episodes and themes. One I would say is that it's just very informative. It's like around the basics of talking about disability or just knowing about disability. So here's a quote one billion, more than one billion people around the world are disabled in fact, or the world's largest minority. And that comes constantly into play with, as we said, a community not being a monolith and people having these differing ideas about how we should talk about things in the language we should use, and that's all really healthy discourse. But it's a huge it's a huge community. And as we've discussed before, you can also be temporarily able person. You might like break your leg and then suddenly you'll you'll be thinking about ramps or stairs or something like that.
00:05:32
Speaker 2: Right, there's definitely a lot to that. And then also that conversation, like even with aging, that that becomes a conversation about like your abilities and you're no longer able body quote unquote. And I think this is such a timely of course, this month is very very important. Why we need to talk about it, and we should really highlight more information about it, but like, especially in conversations with the recent bills past again it's twenty twenty five, and they co opting the word able body, which really pisses me off to no end, really forgetting the years and years of work that disabled activists have been doing and talking about what able body meanings versus what it isn't and how it's being weaponized and why this could be a problem, especially when we talk about working and having equal rights all these things as well as benefits and why that is important for the disabled community and that it should be a human right and this bill has gone backwards. So I would really love to hear Emily's take because in this book, I feel like she packs a lot and we talk about it, it feels almost overwhelming because you do hear the back and forth of like, Okay, so I'm not supposed to do this, but I'm supposed to do this, but I did do this, but this could be wrong to this person, which she reiterates oftentimes that this is a personal preference in what she's speaking specifically the dos and don'ts, But like everybody's an individual, and if you're truly in tune with that conversation and in that alignment, just like you would ask anybody pronouns wise like all of that that we should ask their preference in how things are spoken, because different people have different takes, which takes lot. She talks a lot about, so I know we're going to get into two ideals I guess labels that I didn't really think much of until she did it. But I think, yeah, all of this is so very important, very but still introductory, and I think that has a lot to do with our ableism that is so ingrained in us, just as much just misogyny is, like we talk a lot about, like the internalized misogyny that was hard to let go of, but we have to talk about the internalized ableism that we don't think about, and oftentimes we excuse us. Eh, they understand, but that's a problem that shouldn't be the fact. But I know I'm going too far into this. There's a lot there was, Like there's this back and forth of every chapter, every page saying something and then like kind of reiterating another point, and you're trying to figure out for yourself where you think you will, which is a little bit selfish, but at the same time trying to become educated or more educated even before because some of these things that we have talked about before, we've talked about activists and their preferences, and they're understanding, but like in understanding that we still have to take apart some of the others, such as like an infantilizing, such as the fear of doing something wrong. You know, all these things which holds you back into not want to interact with people with disabilities. And it's just a it's overwhelming. But sheily does a great job in trying to break those down.
00:08:35
Speaker 1: She does, and she's very it's it's when the book opened, she says, you know, I wish I didn't have to do this, but we've got to do it because nobody's talking about it. And these are these basics. But she's also very I don't think non judgmental. I don't know what the right word is, but she's basically like, I want you to learn more. I'm not trying to shame you. I'm trying to say, we've all been taught disablest ideal, all these iblist ideals, and I want us all to become move on from that how we can. So she constantly is saying like, there's not gonna be a test at the end. Yeah, like it's going to be We're gonna get through this.
00:09:19
Speaker 2: And also she allows for mistakes, yes, and just in the same conversation we had with Joey when we talk about like pronouns and understanding that you know, gender maybe not as it seems, especially for specific people, and then like trying to come into that and understanding that and being a person who is learning, uh, these new languages that that they've always existed, but previously we had a different mindset and understanding about it. And as we learn more and more and understanding that we are celebrating things and therefore in celebration we also have to acknowledge where this uh, where the knowledge is coming FROMNOLG the knowledge in saying like I think we have oftentimes here when people like say things like I don't like this, I don't want this. This is offensive, and people are like, well, if you're so mad about it, then do something about it, and they have. Emily has like, I think that's the kind of thing about The bigger question is before, before now we wouldn't even allow that, we wouldn't even hate that as as a knowledge as information as facts that we need to understand. So there's so much to that that she gives us. And in this I think she's very understanding that it's still a stepping stone to unlearned something is just as difficult to learn something. But we all need to understand in this, in this pathways that we're going to be wrong, acknowledge those wrongs, apologize honestly, and then learn and grow with it. And that's that bigger part that she's trying to say. I think in this level of like, yeah, when you're not in this world, it's it's something that you have to learn.
00:11:08
Speaker 1: Yes, And she's very open about instances in which she has made mistakes, so she's also she makes clear that she wants this to be an accessible book in terms of it is let's just start at one oh one and and writes it very clearly and is not testing you, but it's just giving you this tool, but like honestly giving these tools because I remember you and I have had discussions about we were worried about using the wrong the wrong terminology. We just and I remember lamenting to Eves once this isn't what we do. But I remember lamenting to Eves once that I felt like nobody talks about things they think are too tough to talk about, and I think disability falls in that for a lot of people, because they're so we've been so indoctrinated with this idea that you don't talk about.
00:12:10
Speaker 2: It, right, that you silence it, and it's an impolite, yes, to even acknowledge it. Mm hmm. She even talks about the historical context of having some terms that really go back to using them as entertainment only and if not to be silenced and put into the like darkness, essentially like put away where you cann't find the and we know that's been a historical thing all over the world in the fact that still kind of happens. Of course, that goes along also with the eugenics. She does touch onto that, if I remember correctly, Yes, but of course that's not the entire book, although that's a clear reminder of why these conversations are so important that we don't do that again, we don't don't we don't fall back to that or unless see when it's coming.
00:13:03
Speaker 1: Yes, she does talk about she has a history section which she is very clear is very abbreviated and just a jumping, jumping off point. But she does talk about eugenics and the history of that. She also does talk about disability and intersectionality and privilege a lot because she's a white woman in a wheelchair, so she just talks about the differences and how she's treated versus other people. But she also talks about judgment within communities. Again, this is the largest minority community in the world, so I can't really escape it. I could talk about that in the LGBTQ plus community ad nauseum, but I think people sometimes if they're outside of the community, assume like everybody agrees, but that's not the case. But yes, she also talks about ableism, right, yes, And we.
00:14:14
Speaker 2: Got a quote here and it says, but ableism takes a heavy toll. Too many disabled people have been led to believe that our very lives are not worth living. And if there's one thing, just one that you take away from reading this book, let it be this, that line of thinking is unequivocally untrue. Disabled lives are worth living. Oh yeah, she was talking about some tropes and any and I've actually talked about this specific movie before and I refuse to watch anything like this because it is. There's something too that's like, uh, why, I've seen many of people who are entirely happy and are fine. I think this and the same trope as like it's the end of their lives, ties like they're angry, they're hostile, they're all bitter about the world, and that's not true. It's the same thing with like Forrest Gump, like I said, he eventually does find his joy, but this like trope of like I'm angry because of this, this and this. I'm like he probably has more ptsded and anger, but you know whatever. Uh, And in understanding, there's just so many people who would be seemingly abled body who are going through tough times and probably are are talking about how they feel like life is not worth living because of a like sephalism. But then that's the same thing. It's kind of like that level of like the reasons are not because of this, the reason is because of this, like you know, like the differing it doesn't matter necessarily, and the way that we have to be like oh no, but you have to be so unhappy because you can't do the A, B or C, which is so it is truly offensive.
00:15:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we've talked about a lot of those. We'll come back to some of those tropes later, but it's sort of the like overcoming disability or fixing disability or praying over disability.
00:16:11
Speaker 2: But she told me like she talks about being prayed over. I was like, no, he's a kid too.
00:16:20
Speaker 1: But we are going to talk about some of the because one of the points she also makes is that you know, if we had if things were accessible, if the government was providing for us, like then we wouldn't have perhaps so much anchor, Like it's not coming from the disability necessarily, it's coming from the lack of support.
00:16:47
Speaker 2: Lack of support like, oh, we're going to talk so much more about that. But I also think about the fact that she talks about her dad, you know, and finding that no, he's a normal person who loves his family. I don't understand and why there's pity on him or like extra good for you, like extra awards or for him for me, And it's just there's just this level in that conversation too. But she talks about but what about the fact that you know, my mom and I able to bring this type of joy in and he loves like we love him as much as he loves us and we are an equal relationships, like this is a necessary tone to take, and when it's just like no, but this is a marriage for family, I don't understand why you're doing this in that level of well, like we are happy, we are a happy family. We have just just the same stress, Like we have just as much stress as the next family.
00:17:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't really need to comment on your honestly, Okay. So that does bring us to the terminology, which I really appreciate it because we have gone back and forth. So here's a quote. There's one thing we should have dressed right away. We need to stop using the word handicapped. It's an outdated term that's fallen out of favor with most disabled people, and quite frankly, it makes my skin crawl. Occasionally I'll find myself saying things such as handicapped bathroom or a handicapped entrance because old terminology dies hard. But there are better words to use. Talking about a person disability is better than handicapped. Pointing out a parking spot with the blue lines, it's accessible parking, and then she also breaks down, So this is what we really have been, like, what should we do person first language versus identity first language. So person first language would be something like person with a disability to stress that they are a person who happens to have a disability. Identity first language would be something like disabled person, where the disability is a part of their identity. People have preferences, but neither are wrong, And a running scene throughout this book is just politely ask if you're not sure or you know, perhaps they might correct you, and don't be defensive about it, right.
00:19:04
Speaker 2: And that, Yeah, that was that bigger point. It's like, if they correct you, if they care enough about you and care enough to have a relationship with you to be like, eh, I would rather you say this about me, then you listen to that.
00:19:16
Speaker 1: Uh.
00:19:17
Speaker 2: My initial reaction to any of body that corrects me, I freak out, thinking that I have done the worst thing ever, and then I smiral for days and just want to rod away. But she even makes a point about that, and she's like, don't make this about yourself, and I was like, well, damn, So there's there's a lot to that, but it really knows because she was just like it's just it's and it's fine, Like it means just as much if you listen and respect that and then learn from that from then on. And I think that's that back and forth is like as a show that we do. We talk and make this about us, but trying to get it correctly. This is why I think, like things like the activists around the world, when I talk about them, I take what they label they have labeled. Often I will quote them in order to get it correctly. Of course, people are like, why do you have them on the show? We would love to, We would love to for the short segments. It's not worth their time. But in the biggest tim is we do love those types of interactions. Sometimes we just have too much on our plate, all of that to say, having that, being able to see that, and if you don't have that, to ask that, or to say I'm apologize without pronunciations. We talk about this, we're doing, we try to do it. Sometimes we just can't get the correct ones. And unfortunately we are single person or two peoples, and we do best with what we have. But I absolutely appreciate when people do correct us and doing this correctly. I have been saying handicap still because that is the old language, but now not knowing this, I know, it's gonna take me a minute. That's gonna take me a minute, and you probably have to correct me in some things because I'll be like, okay, accessible, that makes sense. But late we don't know, and later in life, like ten years from now, that might change through it and that's okay. We just roll with the times.
00:21:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is what we wrote about in the preface to our book. By the way, we were like, right now, this is how people are talking about these things. But it could change and that's not that right. Other things that happened that the author talks about and these chapters are hitting disabled people against each other. So low functioning versus high functioning when it comes to ability, and all of that being kind of set to the standard of normal. Right, which what is that?
00:21:46
Speaker 2: Right?
00:21:47
Speaker 1: A parent versus not a parent, which is visible versus invisible. So some people have disabilities that you can't see on first glance or something, but pitting that against each other. And then there's medical model versus social model. So here's a quote. The social model emerged as a response to the incomplete perspective of the medical model. According to the social model, people are disabled not by medical conditions, but by environments, attitudes, and systems that create barriers. As an example, through the lens of the social model, I can attribute my status as disabled to an environment that isn't wheelchair accessible rather than my medical diagnosis. So this is sort of like if everywhere was accessible, then I wouldn't have a disability because I could get anywhere, or you know what I mean. So I thought that was a really interesting debate that people have. And then there's also common judgments or misconceptions. So here is one of my favorite quotes. It's important to remember that if you've met one disabled person, you've met one disabled person, and if you have a disability, then the only disability experience you're an expert on is your own. Yeah. I think that's good to keep in mind, right.
00:23:16
Speaker 2: And also even with someone else that has made a similar diagnosis, that's different. Your persons and your treatments are going to be completely different a lot of the times, So you can't put that onto that person tell them they're doing something wrong.
00:23:34
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And that's she, Like we said, she has a lot of quotes from other people with disabilities throughout the book, and she'll say sometimes like I disagree with that, but I get where they're coming from, and I think that that's important to be like, Okay, well that's your life, and I respect that decision. And that's not how I feel, but I respect that decision hurting me. Also, it does delve into, yes, using disability as an insult, and this was something that I knew. It didn't surprise me, but I was like, oh my gosh, so many of the stories she shared, what what people making these unsolicited like jokes, uh, praying a child, praying over her, unwarranted, unasked leaning on someone's wheelchair without asking, not knowing them, which I hadn't thought about how invasive that was until I read this, and I was like, yeah, that's real.
00:24:52
Speaker 2: Ultimately, that's terrible. That's such an odd thing because that's someone's her, that's how she moved, that's a part of her. But for me, in like before I read that, I was like, oh, absolutely, which I should have thought of it that way. But in my head, it's also their property. They paid for this, you know, like this is costly equipment. I like, I understand that, why would you like? It just doesn't seem and also you who don't know how stable it is, how it functions, there may be this like type of manifoctures, you know, like you never know because people have to do with what they have. Unfortunately, because this country is when it comes to again disability rights and providing the right stuff and equipment and oftentimes we'll give you with the most minimal thing and also like allowing for abilities and so if you know, you don't know, you don't know what this is. So to me, I'm like, what even in like a hospital, when they have the ones that are like kind of more accessible for uh, the the actual hospital to use themselves for different patients, I would not touch those. Yeah, So that just baffled me in first place. I was like the audacity, Yeah.
00:26:05
Speaker 1: Especially if because she makes clear like you know, you might have a friend you're cool with and you've communicated with, Yeah, that's okay for you to do like strangers.
00:26:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, even still like you're like, hmm, like the only way is like if you had permission to be like do you want me to push you here and there? And then I put something like with yours like do you mind holding this or do you mind like as so with anything like that. Just yeah, odd odd Some of these things that she was and of course like of course because people have Noku and also the ableism and those really have this like level of like yeah, this is part of my you're in my space type of thing or you're taking like there's so much to this in this conversation again of like entitlement, but like, yeah, I just could not imagine the leaning on somebody's wheelchair, which can why why ah I thought they were There was this whole thing like I don't know if you saw this debate, I know shouldn't be part of the book club. But a woman is at the Disney World saw a really cute pink wheelchair and she decided she would to take it because her daughter was tired. It was sitting in front of somewhere, and everybody was like, uh, you just took someone's property, what the like? And it just sparked the whole debate about like who has like who's this and who's that? And they're like, no, Disney definitely has their own, and I think they do have like their own, but you also have to check them check them out, right.
00:27:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm pretty sure you have to check them out.
00:27:36
Speaker 2: And so I'm like, why was still what the is someone if you you're just tired. Why would you Why would you do this?
00:27:46
Speaker 1: Why would you do yeah?
00:27:48
Speaker 2: Yeah? And also I get very frustrated with people who are part too close to handicap spaces because they you, they may need they need that extra space, you don't know why, or they are again the invisible disability stuff like they may have why are you in anybody's business?
00:28:06
Speaker 1: People love policing that, and I'm not to say people will abuse it, but when my dad had like a cancer and he had the handicap, people would come up. They'd be like, you, look fine, he's got he had a cane and everything, but they would come up to him and I'm.
00:28:19
Speaker 3: Like, jez okay, again the audacity and this, And then again she's right, it doesn't make sense that this is people's business or this is people's entitlement, and it's more likely to happen to the people of the disability community like it may yeah.
00:28:37
Speaker 1: Why yeah, And she does talk about I think a lot of people are trying to prove that they're like cool, like they're not. I see your disability and I can lean on your wheelchair because I'm not freaked out by it. But the truth is you're not handling it, well, you're making the person uncomfortable and you're making it all about you. Like I think it's kind of that vibe of like both laziness or like not caring but also trying to prove oh but I'm an ally when you're really the opposite doing the opposite thing.
00:29:17
Speaker 2: The same thing is again the prayer thing, like we really are telling them there's something. You're telling them there's something wrong with you. Like that's that's such a judgmental level. Feel like, first of all, we all we all know how we feel about this type of religion anyway. But the audacity to do that as well as people who have the impoliteness, I guess, the again the able ism to think that you have the right to speak on someone else's disability once again, whether it's to ask tons of questions that are not your business or be like, oh, I'm trying to do the whole I relate. I once once upon a time I stubbed my toe type of thing. Type of conversation you're like, this is this is odd, like in order to like to be like, oh, I'm I'm I understand you type of thinking, like that's not empathy, that's that's odd. But as well as like the people who are like, yeah, but I'm sure you'll be fixed soon. I know God, God has plans to do this for you. As if again that like over patronizing of like pity and sympathy when no one asks for that, and again a lot of like the bigger conversation, it's like no, you know you what you really need to be pity about is calling your congressman and telling them this is like I need medicaid without loss of this and having a job or having an earning and all these things like this is the wrong way to go. You are not looking at what the big problem could be and solving for me the person who is disabled, or for a disabled person. So it's such just a whole thing mm hmm.
00:30:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's really the truth of it. They don't want to solve the problem in it and they don't want to look at in the eye or admit the truth of yes, we're not helping or supporting people. Right. But also if somebody prays over like if you if you're none of our listeners did this, but if you did, that's something where you're essentially I would feel I'm not saying everyone would feel this way, but then I would feel like you're telling me God made me this way, perhaps because I did something wrong, right, and now I'm I must depend on prayers to fix what's wrong. That's just just a terrible thing to do somebody who's just going about their day. Man.
00:31:43
Speaker 2: There's also this lettle like, yeah, do you really think you're perfect just because you have this one ability that I don't have? Baby, you need to look at the mirror and start praying for yourself if you really want to fix them.
00:31:54
Speaker 1: I did. I did appreciate She made that point several times, like, not everybody's the everybody has different abilities so they can do the same thing, right. But yes, she also does have a chapter on media, and I just want to throw in here she was on Sesame Street. You can still find the clip. I found it earlier today. She was on there as a child. But she does get through a lot of the tropes, some of which we discussed. Inspiration porn might relate to what we've just been talking about, this kind of idea of able bodied people making themselves feel better.
00:32:28
Speaker 2: Right. I think she takes it a one step further, saying pity porn. And we've talked a lot about this, whether it's like, oh, you're so inspirational, this, this is the only thing you have, right, so brave, you're so brave for existing type of conversation. Again, like there's so much to this layers because we talked about that with people like who've gone through a hard life and as a queer person, as a person of color, so like all of these things that they really want the sob story so they can feel good and think that they're saving you, which is again yeah about you, right, and then once again thing yeah they thank god I'm not them type of type of conversation, and you're like, I'm so grateful. I have so much to be thankful for. When you look at that's such a like connoissance. That does make me want to punch somebody.
00:33:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's just And we didn't go into it, but again go read the book. But in the Ableism chapter that quote that we included, she was talking about how, you know, we don't talk about it, but that is every day, every time I go outside, every time I interact with somebody, like it's just there, and how exhausting that is when she is living a very fulfilling life, right, but she has this thing right where people see her and just have to call it out right, I don't believe are yeah, Oh my goodness. So the final chapter is about ally ship and we've already talked about some of this, but she's really big on you know, when in Dell ask politely whatever it is. She even has a whole thing about like some people prefer if you're in a wheelchair, they prefer the person to kind of kneel down to their level, and some people prefer that you don't right, So like when in doubt ask politely, it is the person in questions decision, but it's all about respect. So many of these things I was like, I'm not dismissing any of this at all, but so many of the things were the stories of the bad actors. I was like, do you not know how to treat people right? People right? Don't do that right?
00:34:45
Speaker 2: And then then again, like the asking part, there is that part of like, no, but I'm not sure, so I don't know how to handle this. It shouldn't discourage you from getting to know people and getting to know anybody who might have a disability. So in that conversation. She's I think she talked about she doesn't love people crouching necessarily unless she knows them. She would rather use stand from a distance so that she can have the conversation without creating her neck or any of that.
00:35:08
Speaker 1: Such.
00:35:09
Speaker 2: She's talked about people with like being deaf and how they communicate and making sure we understand not to take things or to like block things, just being really like conscientious on how we communicate with that. But again she understands that this can be difficult for people who may not have interacted with different people of different abilities again or disability, so all of those things, like it is, it can be confusing in some of the ways. So we talked. She talks about people who are nonverbal having like the writing pads and all of that. So it is interesting in that she does take to account that different people can have For my own, you know, our own invisible disability, which is the anxiety that skyrockets that makes me shut down, like what do we do? How do we do this without having a full panic attack about it, like having that understanding race, Yeah, this could be is it is for some people, it can be a little bit hard to navigate. Maybe because of their again, their own disabilities and having to work through that as well.
00:36:16
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and it ends on a very she has a whole section on disability etiquette, but it does end on a you know, we're all learning. This is an ongoing process, keep learning, which I think is a great message. So here is a final quote. This means that the first step to being an ally is unlearning this misconception and recognizing that disabled people aren't in need of saving. We're in need of a world that recognizes our rights and our humanity without question yep. Yeah, m hmm. It's it's a really good book. Really really recommend it. Uh, It's it's very dense, it's very informative, but it's short. You get a lot, you learn a lot out of those pages. So yes, go check it out. Listeners, if you have any recommendations for other books that we should do, you can email us at Hello at stuff Wenever Told You dot com. You can find us on blue Sky at molsto a podcasts, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You cross on YouTube, and we have a book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always too, our super produce sixteen at Our Exceptive produced Maya and a contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks you for listening stuff I never told you to pook show my Heart Radio for more podcast or my Heart Radio. You can check out the Heart Radio, Apple podcasts, or ever you listen to your favorite shows
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and smitham welcome to Stuff I Never Told You production of iHeartRadio and for today's classic, since we are now in officially Disability Pride Month, you jumped the gun a little bit, but that's okay, that's great. We talked about this stuff all the time the time, Yes, and we do have some content we're planning around that. But for this classic, I thought it would be a good idea to bring back the book club we did on Demystifying Disability because I thought it was a great, great primer, a lot of excellent information, and yeah, you should read it. If you haven't read it, go read it, go read it. Yes, so please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and look of Stuff WILL Never Told You production of VIR Heart Radio. Fuller Today's book Club. We're talking about Emily Ladoo's award winning twenty twenty one novel Demystifying Disability. What to Know, what to say, and how to be an ally. This is a practical, approachable book filled with quotes from people with all kinds of disabilities, that delves into some basics of talking about disability and actionable steps to improve these discussions. Or just your interactions with people. It also hammers home the point that, like any community, disabled people are not a monolith and are individuals with preferences when it comes to things like terminology. It's a book that doesn't fault you for your past mistakes, but is asking you to do better and get giving you the tools to do so. Not only are there breakdowns of definitions and schools of thought, but also a history, a look into all the ways ableism can manifest, media representations of disability, and ways to be a better ally both outside of and within the disabled community. It tackles complex issues in a way that is easy to digest, shines a light on nuances and differences of thought, and overall just packs so much in Despite its short length, The dow is also clear this is a starting point and gives a lot of references or things to follow up on throughout. I wish I had read it earlier, honestly. Here is a quote from the author about the author, A little about me. I have multiple disabilities, including a physical disability, a hearing disability, and mental health disabilities. I use a wheelchair because I was born with larcen syndrome LS, A joint and muscle disorder that I inherited from my mom Ellen, who also has it. You might think that are both having LS is a tragedy, but we don't. In my humble opinion, it's pretty fantastic to have somebody built into my life who just gets me. And I would say, just go read it, like we're going to go over some of it in here, but as always with these book clubs, we want you to check it out yourself, support office, yourself. But I also think it was it's just a really useful breakdown of a lot of the the ways people run into being too afraid to talk about disability or not knowing quite what to say. Hm. Yes, so go read it.
00:03:48
Speaker 2: Read it. It's not long, it's available in every as it actually found it in several libraries too.
00:03:56
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and it's got cute illustrations.
00:04:00
Speaker 2: Illustrations cover is wonderful mm hmmm, very very approachable. You should definitely read it.
00:04:08
Speaker 1: Yes, it's essentially broken into like topics such as terminology or allyship or media, but it really does. It packs so much in Like when I left after I finished, Oh my gosh, I will absorb so much information. This was great. Yeah. Yeah, so that's kind of the layout of it, but we will go over as we like to do in our book club episodes and themes. One I would say is that it's just very informative. It's like around the basics of talking about disability or just knowing about disability. So here's a quote one billion, more than one billion people around the world are disabled in fact, or the world's largest minority. And that comes constantly into play with, as we said, a community not being a monolith and people having these differing ideas about how we should talk about things in the language we should use, and that's all really healthy discourse. But it's a huge it's a huge community. And as we've discussed before, you can also be temporarily able person. You might like break your leg and then suddenly you'll you'll be thinking about ramps or stairs or something like that.
00:05:32
Speaker 2: Right, there's definitely a lot to that. And then also that conversation, like even with aging, that that becomes a conversation about like your abilities and you're no longer able body quote unquote. And I think this is such a timely of course, this month is very very important. Why we need to talk about it, and we should really highlight more information about it, but like, especially in conversations with the recent bills past again it's twenty twenty five, and they co opting the word able body, which really pisses me off to no end, really forgetting the years and years of work that disabled activists have been doing and talking about what able body meanings versus what it isn't and how it's being weaponized and why this could be a problem, especially when we talk about working and having equal rights all these things as well as benefits and why that is important for the disabled community and that it should be a human right and this bill has gone backwards. So I would really love to hear Emily's take because in this book, I feel like she packs a lot and we talk about it, it feels almost overwhelming because you do hear the back and forth of like, Okay, so I'm not supposed to do this, but I'm supposed to do this, but I did do this, but this could be wrong to this person, which she reiterates oftentimes that this is a personal preference in what she's speaking specifically the dos and don'ts, But like everybody's an individual, and if you're truly in tune with that conversation and in that alignment, just like you would ask anybody pronouns wise like all of that that we should ask their preference in how things are spoken, because different people have different takes, which takes lot. She talks a lot about, so I know we're going to get into two ideals I guess labels that I didn't really think much of until she did it. But I think, yeah, all of this is so very important, very but still introductory, and I think that has a lot to do with our ableism that is so ingrained in us, just as much just misogyny is, like we talk a lot about, like the internalized misogyny that was hard to let go of, but we have to talk about the internalized ableism that we don't think about, and oftentimes we excuse us. Eh, they understand, but that's a problem that shouldn't be the fact. But I know I'm going too far into this. There's a lot there was, Like there's this back and forth of every chapter, every page saying something and then like kind of reiterating another point, and you're trying to figure out for yourself where you think you will, which is a little bit selfish, but at the same time trying to become educated or more educated even before because some of these things that we have talked about before, we've talked about activists and their preferences, and they're understanding, but like in understanding that we still have to take apart some of the others, such as like an infantilizing, such as the fear of doing something wrong. You know, all these things which holds you back into not want to interact with people with disabilities. And it's just a it's overwhelming. But sheily does a great job in trying to break those down.
00:08:35
Speaker 1: She does, and she's very it's it's when the book opened, she says, you know, I wish I didn't have to do this, but we've got to do it because nobody's talking about it. And these are these basics. But she's also very I don't think non judgmental. I don't know what the right word is, but she's basically like, I want you to learn more. I'm not trying to shame you. I'm trying to say, we've all been taught disablest ideal, all these iblist ideals, and I want us all to become move on from that how we can. So she constantly is saying like, there's not gonna be a test at the end. Yeah, like it's going to be We're gonna get through this.
00:09:19
Speaker 2: And also she allows for mistakes, yes, and just in the same conversation we had with Joey when we talk about like pronouns and understanding that you know, gender maybe not as it seems, especially for specific people, and then like trying to come into that and understanding that and being a person who is learning, uh, these new languages that that they've always existed, but previously we had a different mindset and understanding about it. And as we learn more and more and understanding that we are celebrating things and therefore in celebration we also have to acknowledge where this uh, where the knowledge is coming FROMNOLG the knowledge in saying like I think we have oftentimes here when people like say things like I don't like this, I don't want this. This is offensive, and people are like, well, if you're so mad about it, then do something about it, and they have. Emily has like, I think that's the kind of thing about The bigger question is before, before now we wouldn't even allow that, we wouldn't even hate that as as a knowledge as information as facts that we need to understand. So there's so much to that that she gives us. And in this I think she's very understanding that it's still a stepping stone to unlearned something is just as difficult to learn something. But we all need to understand in this, in this pathways that we're going to be wrong, acknowledge those wrongs, apologize honestly, and then learn and grow with it. And that's that bigger part that she's trying to say. I think in this level of like, yeah, when you're not in this world, it's it's something that you have to learn.
00:11:08
Speaker 1: Yes, And she's very open about instances in which she has made mistakes, so she's also she makes clear that she wants this to be an accessible book in terms of it is let's just start at one oh one and and writes it very clearly and is not testing you, but it's just giving you this tool, but like honestly giving these tools because I remember you and I have had discussions about we were worried about using the wrong the wrong terminology. We just and I remember lamenting to Eves once this isn't what we do. But I remember lamenting to Eves once that I felt like nobody talks about things they think are too tough to talk about, and I think disability falls in that for a lot of people, because they're so we've been so indoctrinated with this idea that you don't talk about.
00:12:10
Speaker 2: It, right, that you silence it, and it's an impolite, yes, to even acknowledge it. Mm hmm. She even talks about the historical context of having some terms that really go back to using them as entertainment only and if not to be silenced and put into the like darkness, essentially like put away where you cann't find the and we know that's been a historical thing all over the world in the fact that still kind of happens. Of course, that goes along also with the eugenics. She does touch onto that, if I remember correctly, Yes, but of course that's not the entire book, although that's a clear reminder of why these conversations are so important that we don't do that again, we don't don't we don't fall back to that or unless see when it's coming.
00:13:03
Speaker 1: Yes, she does talk about she has a history section which she is very clear is very abbreviated and just a jumping, jumping off point. But she does talk about eugenics and the history of that. She also does talk about disability and intersectionality and privilege a lot because she's a white woman in a wheelchair, so she just talks about the differences and how she's treated versus other people. But she also talks about judgment within communities. Again, this is the largest minority community in the world, so I can't really escape it. I could talk about that in the LGBTQ plus community ad nauseum, but I think people sometimes if they're outside of the community, assume like everybody agrees, but that's not the case. But yes, she also talks about ableism, right, yes, And we.
00:14:14
Speaker 2: Got a quote here and it says, but ableism takes a heavy toll. Too many disabled people have been led to believe that our very lives are not worth living. And if there's one thing, just one that you take away from reading this book, let it be this, that line of thinking is unequivocally untrue. Disabled lives are worth living. Oh yeah, she was talking about some tropes and any and I've actually talked about this specific movie before and I refuse to watch anything like this because it is. There's something too that's like, uh, why, I've seen many of people who are entirely happy and are fine. I think this and the same trope as like it's the end of their lives, ties like they're angry, they're hostile, they're all bitter about the world, and that's not true. It's the same thing with like Forrest Gump, like I said, he eventually does find his joy, but this like trope of like I'm angry because of this, this and this. I'm like he probably has more ptsded and anger, but you know whatever. Uh, And in understanding, there's just so many people who would be seemingly abled body who are going through tough times and probably are are talking about how they feel like life is not worth living because of a like sephalism. But then that's the same thing. It's kind of like that level of like the reasons are not because of this, the reason is because of this, like you know, like the differing it doesn't matter necessarily, and the way that we have to be like oh no, but you have to be so unhappy because you can't do the A, B or C, which is so it is truly offensive.
00:15:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we've talked about a lot of those. We'll come back to some of those tropes later, but it's sort of the like overcoming disability or fixing disability or praying over disability.
00:16:11
Speaker 2: But she told me like she talks about being prayed over. I was like, no, he's a kid too.
00:16:20
Speaker 1: But we are going to talk about some of the because one of the points she also makes is that you know, if we had if things were accessible, if the government was providing for us, like then we wouldn't have perhaps so much anchor, Like it's not coming from the disability necessarily, it's coming from the lack of support.
00:16:47
Speaker 2: Lack of support like, oh, we're going to talk so much more about that. But I also think about the fact that she talks about her dad, you know, and finding that no, he's a normal person who loves his family. I don't understand and why there's pity on him or like extra good for you, like extra awards or for him for me, And it's just there's just this level in that conversation too. But she talks about but what about the fact that you know, my mom and I able to bring this type of joy in and he loves like we love him as much as he loves us and we are an equal relationships, like this is a necessary tone to take, and when it's just like no, but this is a marriage for family, I don't understand why you're doing this in that level of well, like we are happy, we are a happy family. We have just just the same stress, Like we have just as much stress as the next family.
00:17:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't really need to comment on your honestly, Okay. So that does bring us to the terminology, which I really appreciate it because we have gone back and forth. So here's a quote. There's one thing we should have dressed right away. We need to stop using the word handicapped. It's an outdated term that's fallen out of favor with most disabled people, and quite frankly, it makes my skin crawl. Occasionally I'll find myself saying things such as handicapped bathroom or a handicapped entrance because old terminology dies hard. But there are better words to use. Talking about a person disability is better than handicapped. Pointing out a parking spot with the blue lines, it's accessible parking, and then she also breaks down, So this is what we really have been, like, what should we do person first language versus identity first language. So person first language would be something like person with a disability to stress that they are a person who happens to have a disability. Identity first language would be something like disabled person, where the disability is a part of their identity. People have preferences, but neither are wrong, And a running scene throughout this book is just politely ask if you're not sure or you know, perhaps they might correct you, and don't be defensive about it, right.
00:19:04
Speaker 2: And that, Yeah, that was that bigger point. It's like, if they correct you, if they care enough about you and care enough to have a relationship with you to be like, eh, I would rather you say this about me, then you listen to that.
00:19:16
Speaker 1: Uh.
00:19:17
Speaker 2: My initial reaction to any of body that corrects me, I freak out, thinking that I have done the worst thing ever, and then I smiral for days and just want to rod away. But she even makes a point about that, and she's like, don't make this about yourself, and I was like, well, damn, So there's there's a lot to that, but it really knows because she was just like it's just it's and it's fine, Like it means just as much if you listen and respect that and then learn from that from then on. And I think that's that back and forth is like as a show that we do. We talk and make this about us, but trying to get it correctly. This is why I think, like things like the activists around the world, when I talk about them, I take what they label they have labeled. Often I will quote them in order to get it correctly. Of course, people are like, why do you have them on the show? We would love to, We would love to for the short segments. It's not worth their time. But in the biggest tim is we do love those types of interactions. Sometimes we just have too much on our plate, all of that to say, having that, being able to see that, and if you don't have that, to ask that, or to say I'm apologize without pronunciations. We talk about this, we're doing, we try to do it. Sometimes we just can't get the correct ones. And unfortunately we are single person or two peoples, and we do best with what we have. But I absolutely appreciate when people do correct us and doing this correctly. I have been saying handicap still because that is the old language, but now not knowing this, I know, it's gonna take me a minute. That's gonna take me a minute, and you probably have to correct me in some things because I'll be like, okay, accessible, that makes sense. But late we don't know, and later in life, like ten years from now, that might change through it and that's okay. We just roll with the times.
00:21:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is what we wrote about in the preface to our book. By the way, we were like, right now, this is how people are talking about these things. But it could change and that's not that right. Other things that happened that the author talks about and these chapters are hitting disabled people against each other. So low functioning versus high functioning when it comes to ability, and all of that being kind of set to the standard of normal. Right, which what is that?
00:21:46
Speaker 2: Right?
00:21:47
Speaker 1: A parent versus not a parent, which is visible versus invisible. So some people have disabilities that you can't see on first glance or something, but pitting that against each other. And then there's medical model versus social model. So here's a quote. The social model emerged as a response to the incomplete perspective of the medical model. According to the social model, people are disabled not by medical conditions, but by environments, attitudes, and systems that create barriers. As an example, through the lens of the social model, I can attribute my status as disabled to an environment that isn't wheelchair accessible rather than my medical diagnosis. So this is sort of like if everywhere was accessible, then I wouldn't have a disability because I could get anywhere, or you know what I mean. So I thought that was a really interesting debate that people have. And then there's also common judgments or misconceptions. So here is one of my favorite quotes. It's important to remember that if you've met one disabled person, you've met one disabled person, and if you have a disability, then the only disability experience you're an expert on is your own. Yeah. I think that's good to keep in mind, right.
00:23:16
Speaker 2: And also even with someone else that has made a similar diagnosis, that's different. Your persons and your treatments are going to be completely different a lot of the times, So you can't put that onto that person tell them they're doing something wrong.
00:23:34
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And that's she, Like we said, she has a lot of quotes from other people with disabilities throughout the book, and she'll say sometimes like I disagree with that, but I get where they're coming from, and I think that that's important to be like, Okay, well that's your life, and I respect that decision. And that's not how I feel, but I respect that decision hurting me. Also, it does delve into, yes, using disability as an insult, and this was something that I knew. It didn't surprise me, but I was like, oh my gosh, so many of the stories she shared, what what people making these unsolicited like jokes, uh, praying a child, praying over her, unwarranted, unasked leaning on someone's wheelchair without asking, not knowing them, which I hadn't thought about how invasive that was until I read this, and I was like, yeah, that's real.
00:24:52
Speaker 2: Ultimately, that's terrible. That's such an odd thing because that's someone's her, that's how she moved, that's a part of her. But for me, in like before I read that, I was like, oh, absolutely, which I should have thought of it that way. But in my head, it's also their property. They paid for this, you know, like this is costly equipment. I like, I understand that, why would you like? It just doesn't seem and also you who don't know how stable it is, how it functions, there may be this like type of manifoctures, you know, like you never know because people have to do with what they have. Unfortunately, because this country is when it comes to again disability rights and providing the right stuff and equipment and oftentimes we'll give you with the most minimal thing and also like allowing for abilities and so if you know, you don't know, you don't know what this is. So to me, I'm like, what even in like a hospital, when they have the ones that are like kind of more accessible for uh, the the actual hospital to use themselves for different patients, I would not touch those. Yeah, So that just baffled me in first place. I was like the audacity, Yeah.
00:26:05
Speaker 1: Especially if because she makes clear like you know, you might have a friend you're cool with and you've communicated with, Yeah, that's okay for you to do like strangers.
00:26:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, even still like you're like, hmm, like the only way is like if you had permission to be like do you want me to push you here and there? And then I put something like with yours like do you mind holding this or do you mind like as so with anything like that. Just yeah, odd odd Some of these things that she was and of course like of course because people have Noku and also the ableism and those really have this like level of like yeah, this is part of my you're in my space type of thing or you're taking like there's so much to this in this conversation again of like entitlement, but like, yeah, I just could not imagine the leaning on somebody's wheelchair, which can why why ah I thought they were There was this whole thing like I don't know if you saw this debate, I know shouldn't be part of the book club. But a woman is at the Disney World saw a really cute pink wheelchair and she decided she would to take it because her daughter was tired. It was sitting in front of somewhere, and everybody was like, uh, you just took someone's property, what the like? And it just sparked the whole debate about like who has like who's this and who's that? And they're like, no, Disney definitely has their own, and I think they do have like their own, but you also have to check them check them out, right.
00:27:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm pretty sure you have to check them out.
00:27:36
Speaker 2: And so I'm like, why was still what the is someone if you you're just tired. Why would you Why would you do this?
00:27:46
Speaker 1: Why would you do yeah?
00:27:48
Speaker 2: Yeah? And also I get very frustrated with people who are part too close to handicap spaces because they you, they may need they need that extra space, you don't know why, or they are again the invisible disability stuff like they may have why are you in anybody's business?
00:28:06
Speaker 1: People love policing that, and I'm not to say people will abuse it, but when my dad had like a cancer and he had the handicap, people would come up. They'd be like, you, look fine, he's got he had a cane and everything, but they would come up to him and I'm.
00:28:19
Speaker 3: Like, jez okay, again the audacity and this, And then again she's right, it doesn't make sense that this is people's business or this is people's entitlement, and it's more likely to happen to the people of the disability community like it may yeah.
00:28:37
Speaker 1: Why yeah, And she does talk about I think a lot of people are trying to prove that they're like cool, like they're not. I see your disability and I can lean on your wheelchair because I'm not freaked out by it. But the truth is you're not handling it, well, you're making the person uncomfortable and you're making it all about you. Like I think it's kind of that vibe of like both laziness or like not caring but also trying to prove oh but I'm an ally when you're really the opposite doing the opposite thing.
00:29:17
Speaker 2: The same thing is again the prayer thing, like we really are telling them there's something. You're telling them there's something wrong with you. Like that's that's such a judgmental level. Feel like, first of all, we all we all know how we feel about this type of religion anyway. But the audacity to do that as well as people who have the impoliteness, I guess, the again the able ism to think that you have the right to speak on someone else's disability once again, whether it's to ask tons of questions that are not your business or be like, oh, I'm trying to do the whole I relate. I once once upon a time I stubbed my toe type of thing. Type of conversation you're like, this is this is odd, like in order to like to be like, oh, I'm I'm I understand you type of thinking, like that's not empathy, that's that's odd. But as well as like the people who are like, yeah, but I'm sure you'll be fixed soon. I know God, God has plans to do this for you. As if again that like over patronizing of like pity and sympathy when no one asks for that, and again a lot of like the bigger conversation, it's like no, you know you what you really need to be pity about is calling your congressman and telling them this is like I need medicaid without loss of this and having a job or having an earning and all these things like this is the wrong way to go. You are not looking at what the big problem could be and solving for me the person who is disabled, or for a disabled person. So it's such just a whole thing mm hmm.
00:30:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's really the truth of it. They don't want to solve the problem in it and they don't want to look at in the eye or admit the truth of yes, we're not helping or supporting people. Right. But also if somebody prays over like if you if you're none of our listeners did this, but if you did, that's something where you're essentially I would feel I'm not saying everyone would feel this way, but then I would feel like you're telling me God made me this way, perhaps because I did something wrong, right, and now I'm I must depend on prayers to fix what's wrong. That's just just a terrible thing to do somebody who's just going about their day. Man.
00:31:43
Speaker 2: There's also this lettle like, yeah, do you really think you're perfect just because you have this one ability that I don't have? Baby, you need to look at the mirror and start praying for yourself if you really want to fix them.
00:31:54
Speaker 1: I did. I did appreciate She made that point several times, like, not everybody's the everybody has different abilities so they can do the same thing, right. But yes, she also does have a chapter on media, and I just want to throw in here she was on Sesame Street. You can still find the clip. I found it earlier today. She was on there as a child. But she does get through a lot of the tropes, some of which we discussed. Inspiration porn might relate to what we've just been talking about, this kind of idea of able bodied people making themselves feel better.
00:32:28
Speaker 2: Right. I think she takes it a one step further, saying pity porn. And we've talked a lot about this, whether it's like, oh, you're so inspirational, this, this is the only thing you have, right, so brave, you're so brave for existing type of conversation. Again, like there's so much to this layers because we talked about that with people like who've gone through a hard life and as a queer person, as a person of color, so like all of these things that they really want the sob story so they can feel good and think that they're saving you, which is again yeah about you, right, and then once again thing yeah they thank god I'm not them type of type of conversation, and you're like, I'm so grateful. I have so much to be thankful for. When you look at that's such a like connoissance. That does make me want to punch somebody.
00:33:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's just And we didn't go into it, but again go read the book. But in the Ableism chapter that quote that we included, she was talking about how, you know, we don't talk about it, but that is every day, every time I go outside, every time I interact with somebody, like it's just there, and how exhausting that is when she is living a very fulfilling life, right, but she has this thing right where people see her and just have to call it out right, I don't believe are yeah, Oh my goodness. So the final chapter is about ally ship and we've already talked about some of this, but she's really big on you know, when in Dell ask politely whatever it is. She even has a whole thing about like some people prefer if you're in a wheelchair, they prefer the person to kind of kneel down to their level, and some people prefer that you don't right, So like when in doubt ask politely, it is the person in questions decision, but it's all about respect. So many of these things I was like, I'm not dismissing any of this at all, but so many of the things were the stories of the bad actors. I was like, do you not know how to treat people right? People right? Don't do that right?
00:34:45
Speaker 2: And then then again, like the asking part, there is that part of like, no, but I'm not sure, so I don't know how to handle this. It shouldn't discourage you from getting to know people and getting to know anybody who might have a disability. So in that conversation. She's I think she talked about she doesn't love people crouching necessarily unless she knows them. She would rather use stand from a distance so that she can have the conversation without creating her neck or any of that.
00:35:08
Speaker 1: Such.
00:35:09
Speaker 2: She's talked about people with like being deaf and how they communicate and making sure we understand not to take things or to like block things, just being really like conscientious on how we communicate with that. But again she understands that this can be difficult for people who may not have interacted with different people of different abilities again or disability, so all of those things, like it is, it can be confusing in some of the ways. So we talked. She talks about people who are nonverbal having like the writing pads and all of that. So it is interesting in that she does take to account that different people can have For my own, you know, our own invisible disability, which is the anxiety that skyrockets that makes me shut down, like what do we do? How do we do this without having a full panic attack about it, like having that understanding race, Yeah, this could be is it is for some people, it can be a little bit hard to navigate. Maybe because of their again, their own disabilities and having to work through that as well.
00:36:16
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and it ends on a very she has a whole section on disability etiquette, but it does end on a you know, we're all learning. This is an ongoing process, keep learning, which I think is a great message. So here is a final quote. This means that the first step to being an ally is unlearning this misconception and recognizing that disabled people aren't in need of saving. We're in need of a world that recognizes our rights and our humanity without question yep. Yeah, m hmm. It's it's a really good book. Really really recommend it. Uh, It's it's very dense, it's very informative, but it's short. You get a lot, you learn a lot out of those pages. So yes, go check it out. Listeners, if you have any recommendations for other books that we should do, you can email us at Hello at stuff Wenever Told You dot com. You can find us on blue Sky at molsto a podcasts, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You cross on YouTube, and we have a book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always too, our super produce sixteen at Our Exceptive produced Maya and a contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks you for listening stuff I never told you to pook show my Heart Radio for more podcast or my Heart Radio. You can check out the Heart Radio, Apple podcasts, or ever you listen to your favorite shows
