Dave Stubberfield: Welcome to Stubby Talks Transformation, the podcast where we explore what change really looks like inside organizations, talking with the business leaders who actually make change happen. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Mike Carlin, who is the founder and leader of Map Group UK and the founder and leader of Latos Data Centers. Mike, welcome, how are you doing?
Mike Carlin: I'm very good thank you Dave, and yourself.
Dave Stubberfield: Good, good. Yeah, I'm very well, thank you, mate. Very well. Mike, for those that that don't know you, are listening for the first time, what is Map Group and what do you do in the UK market and what's your role in the business?
Mike Carlin: Well, I'll start with the role. I'm the original founder and the CEO of Map Group. We founded the business or I founded the business in 1993. Originally as an electrical contractor. But we then morphed into cable TV and telephony under Comcast in 1995. and then focused more and more on telecoms so currently we are builders of fiber optic networks and connectivity of networks throughout the UK.
Dave Stubberfield: Amazing. and you're also building Latos data centers. So how can you explain the connection between fiber and AI factories in one sentence?
Mike Carlin: Well, in one sentence rather difficult.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: It's all to do with connectivity and accessibility to the internet and the wider AI of things,
Dave Stubberfield: Okay.
Mike Carlin: or the internet of things.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. And and and Latos is is is new in a sense, but it's been a few years in the making, hasn't it?
Mike Carlin: Yes, Latos, we actually built, we started Latos about five years ago when I recognised firstly that there was an opportunity for data centers and with being in the building industry, I started looking at that potential. But very quickly realised that AI factories were really the key going forward. So we focused on small factories. i.e. 20 megawatt factories rather than huge 500 megawatt data centers and our aim and target is to build 20 of these AI factories around the UK over the next five years.
Dave Stubberfield: Amazing. A and you've described the mission as kind of making AI accessible to British businesses and the public. U what does accessible mean in reality?
Mike Carlin: Well first and foremost I think we need to consider sovereignty and sovereignty is something all of the board of Leitos are all English and therefore we fully own by English companies rather than if you look on the data center side of it around 80 % I understand of all data centers are owned by American companies who are actually managing our data in the UK.
Dave Stubberfield: Right. Okay. Brilliant. And the c the cloud is owned by a handful of players and AI shouldn't be owned the same way. This this is kind of a conversation we've had before. What's the risk if it is?
Mike Carlin: I think if we actually look at cloud, we're actually dictated to by, as you rightly say, a handful of companies who dictate the accessibility, the cost, et cetera, of our IT. AI, you know, it's claiming it is open to all, which it should be. So as such, we make it accessible to local authorities. We'll make it accessible to... businesses, it large or small businesses.
Dave Stubberfield: Right in.
Mike Carlin: And that will intend to throughout the UK. And we'll also be offering, we use the term latency, which means that we're building the data centers where real time utilisation can be achieved. That's to say within 40 kilometers of the length of fibre. is real time so as such if you're within that 40 kilometer catchment area people businesses will be will actually use AI real time no delay
Dave Stubberfield: And just like AI is is massive at the minute. Everywhere you turn, there's an organisation that's got a a brand new AI strategy or they want to embed AI into their ways of working. Who is the AI factory designed to serve and and and what are you hoping that people will use AI for from your factories?
Mike Carlin: I think first of all, the AI will be serving all of the business communities. So we're not earmarking it for one particular product or service. So from the AI factory point of view, we are facilitating other businesses who will manage their own chips in the factory itself. that's to say, imagine it's like a car park. We don't dictate the car which is actually going to be parked in the car park or what it's going to be used for So it will be actually the AI will be used for multiple uses within the same environment
Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant. I love that analogy because again it's you want to make sure the the parking space is big enough for people to get their car in. So it's it's pe giving people the right access, I guess, to be able to get in and and do what they want to do. I love that. That's a great analogy. you said that the latency is vital and that kind of that rough kind of forty kilometres fibre length is is kind of that real time. W why is that important to to users and and for anyone that's listening?
Mike Carlin: Well, if you think first of all, let's say it's good, well, it will be used for medical operations, for example.
Dave Stubberfield: Okay.
Mike Carlin: The last thing you want is a stutter. know, if you imagine when you're downloading a film and it goes on delay for a couple of seconds, you know, if you're having an operation, it wouldn't be all that comfortable if you were aware that delays were going to occur. So real time is critical in them factors. If we look at utilization on traffic, so the intelligent car, again it would need to be operated real time rather than with a delay.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. I I think for me that kind of underlines the kind of the the the way the the infrastructure is right now, and how it can change and evolve. You you just highlighted two really key areas where technology is growing, some kind of medical and and sort of automated cars is that delay i it's not it's not feasible. That cannot happen. so that that's just kind of shows the power of technology and how AI can be a massive driving force moving forward. and you've just actually broken ground on the on the first factory, haven't you?
Mike Carlin: That's correct, yes. The first AI factory will actually be built in Stockton on Tees. So we actually broke ground on that and commencing the build, which will take approximately 18 months. we're breaking ground. We've actually built the compounds are all done now. We're forming all the inside the compounds with the main contractor. to then obviously commence the full build over the coming weeks.
Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant. Brilliant. And this goes hand in hand with what you're doing at Map Group and you've got two other businesses, right?
Mike Carlin: Yes, what we've also got is Latos. Sorry, Latos data centers is then attached to another company I own called Vanta AI Limited. Vanta actually owns and manages NVIDIA chips, which are the chips which operate within the sphere of AI. So we've set that up. The chips are currently housed over in Canada. and they're actually getting fully utilized as we speak.
Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant. Brilliant.
Mike Carlin: And adjacent to that, we've also got another company called Plugilow, which is a company based in Germany, as well as Vietnam and America. And that is to look at the way in which we actually use the internet. And we've actually created a safer way of utilisation of the internet, using AI tools as part of that. Again, it's difficult to try and break it down into a few sentences, quite honestly, but it's full utilisation of AI.
Dave Stubberfield: So it's it's very clear to me how these businesses interlink and kind of help one another, I guess, is what I'm trying to trying to get at. And they they serve a purpose to one another, not only to to the public and and businesses as well. What's been the challenge, Mike? You you've been in business with Map Group since nineteen ninety three, you've you've had a a fantastic success there in the in the world of fibre and you're now branching out into to AI and technology. What's been the biggest challenge along the way? Maybe with Map Group, but kind of then starting up with Latos. What's been the biggest challenge of recent?
Mike Carlin: an awful lot of challenges with MAP Group, first of all, because we actually went from the cable TV era, which was basically copper and then transitioning over to more of the fibre build. The difficulties of that are the investment within that environment. We have peaks and troughs, so we need to actually move with them. So sales, example, 2008, 2009, were starting to dip down. We then lost some contracts. were doing work for Virgin Media, for example, in 2012. So I lost about 90 % of my workforce under to be transferred to a competitor. We therefore struggled through for a few years keeping the main staff. all fully employed. We then were successful in winning work with Open Reach and gradually started building the business back up. Where we now in Map Group we're achieving about 95 million turnover this current year.
Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant. Fantastic. And again, that just goes to show that the challenges along the way can can be make or break, but it's it's down to to the leadership to help, I guess, steady the ship and then get get you back on your way and and find some stability. those lessons you've learned with with Map Group, how are you taking that into the world of AI and Latos? Because what you're doing there building these factories, that requires massive investment, right?
Mike Carlin: That's correct. we've initially, if you like the proof of concept, we've actually invested in that ourselves. So we've went around, procured land around the country. So we've got half a dozen different sites on that and paid for the appropriate planning permission, et cetera. And all of the associated investment with design. So we've actually completed completely redesigned the AI centers from inside to out. We've worked very closely with the likes of CBRE to assist with that. We've had discussions with Nvidia to ensure that everything will comply with the requirements laid out by Nvidia. And we're now to a point where, as I mentioned, we're actually breaking ground. So we're now currently out talking to investors.
Dave Stubberfield: Okay. Brilliant. And y you you're targeting those kind of twenty sites across the UK. What's the timescale to get those those twenty sites up and running, do you think?
Mike Carlin: We're looking between five and seven years.
Dave Stubberfield: Wow. Wow. Very ambitious then.
Mike Carlin: Well it needs to be. The speed AI is actually coming at us. If I said 10 to 15 years I'd miss the boat.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, yeah, it's very true. It's very true. I I g I guess how how do you decide where these sites are gonna be? I mean, y you mentioned there you've you've procured sites and land already. What what what goes into the decision making there to to understand where the best sites might be?
Mike Carlin: Well, first of all, it's population. We need to consider and ensure that we're actually building in reasonable population areas. That's one of the first objectives. From there, power. So we need power. Thankfully, we're not as power hungry on AI as we are on data centers. And I'm not rubbish in data centers in any way here, and I'll explain a little more later on that. But the AI We identified there need to be smaller clusters. The requirement we're setting out is between 15 and 20 megawatt of power. To give you some idea, a big data center is between 250 and 500 megawatt of power. So we're taking significantly less power. And therefore our opportunity to build within the populous areas it gives us more and more opportunity. Couple that with less land size we need three, three and half acres of land rather than 50, 100, 150 acres of land.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Carlin: So from that in itself it actually focuses more on what we call neural edge
Dave Stubberfield: Yep.
Mike Carlin: centres.
Dave Stubberfield: Okay.
Mike Carlin: So it's AI Neural Edge is our target market.
Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant. Amazing. What what what do you see kind of being the biggest risk when it comes to execution in this kind of first build, Mike? Is it something that could make or break the model perhaps?
Mike Carlin: In a sense, yes. I don't believe we will break the model because if we consider there is virtually no space available for deployment of AI across the world at this moment in time, never mind in the UK. So, you you're talking one or 2 % space allocation is left to actually place the chips. So for the first two, three, five AI centers, we don't see any risk whatsoever. And again, all of the forecasters saying that we will require more and more and more of the AI. And as a consequence of that, we will need more and more data centers to store the actions carried out by AI. So both AI and data centers will constantly grow.
Dave Stubberfield: Mm. Wow. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. And you you mentioned that you've already invested yourselves in this first build, quite a substantial amount as well. What message do you think that sends to to others? And again, they could be investors, but kind of I guess stakeholders potentially or people that are interested in in seeing what comes of this. What kind of message do you think that that sends? Do you think it shows a level of commitment that you have to this?
Mike Carlin: Yes, wanted first and foremost, we needed to actually demonstrate our commitment to this rather than actually going out and saying to investors, we've got an idea. Please give us the money to convert the idea into reality. We've actually put sufficient funds in and, you know, I'm referring to sufficient funds. You know, this is in the region of between and 20 million pounds up to now. So it's not. It's not just a few bob from the back pocket.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: This is serious investment we've made. So yes, there is risk. I think there's risk with every business opportunity. But by being focused on what we're doing, I believe we will get success.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah, fascinating. Fascinating. We we mentioned kind of the the speed and pace of AI and and technology and how fast that's changing. Is it a risk or a fear maybe that you could be sort of behind the curve by the time you you start in the next build? Do do you feel like there's there's th the technology's changing, you have to keep up with that to make sure that all of the centres you're building are sort of up to s up to sort of state of the art technology?
Mike Carlin: Yeah, very good question. We actually build the centers. We have two buildings on each of the centers,
Dave Stubberfield: Okay.
Mike Carlin: both capable of up to about 48 racks, which is how we actually measure the space. But our original calculations are around rack capacity of 250 kilowatt. But on phase two, we could actually reduce the number of racks but increase the power size to up
Dave Stubberfield: Right.
Mike Carlin: to 600 kilowatt.
Dave Stubberfield: Wow.
Mike Carlin: So we've looked at that in relation to the to the cooling the heights of the buildings so the full design so we've endeavored the future proof as much as we Know at this moment in time
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Brilliant.
Mike Carlin: But we need to continue doing that going forward. So we're always at the ground and understanding what the marketplace is telling us.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I I guess one other thing that has occurred to me, Mike, is I've I've seen it quite a lot recently, is the environmental impact of people using AI. And it's great that there's trends and you can sort of generate your own image and you can put it on social media. It's it's funny, it's great, you can share it with friends. But there are there are people out there that go but it's costing an awful lot to to cool these centres down. Is that something that's come into your thinking as you as you build these sites and progress forward with the business?
Mike Carlin: without doubt, you know, we need to be responsible in all aspects. So cooling, for example, we're actually using a fixed loop cooling system. So we're not actually drawing millions of gallons of water on a week by week basis to cool the system. It's actually a closed loop system, which we top up. So we're not using masses of water. However, we do need to be very mindful of For example, the power consumption. Where do we get the power from? Are we just relying on the grid or are we looking at green solutions? Which the answer is we are looking at every type of solution we can. And the more direct wire, which is effectively utilization of power plants, of various types of power and green energies, we will then put them into the AI centers first, with effectively the grid being the backup.
Dave Stubberfield: Okay.
Mike Carlin: So that's something which will all take time. We haven't got the answer to everything now, but we are talking to a number of power producers and are talking to them about solutions where we could potentially co-locate AI and power generation on
Dave Stubberfield: Yep.
Mike Carlin: the same site.
Dave Stubberfield: Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That I I find that fascinating 'cause that just goes to show that yes, there's innovation in terms of what you're building with these these AI A AI centers, but there's different ways of of looking at how they can sort of work in in harmony with with other things like power as an example. That's great.
Mike Carlin: Well, yeah, it's vitally important that we are talking to a number of people on this because there's a number of different solutions. So
Dave Stubberfield: Mm.
Mike Carlin: rather than just go down the route of one solution, we're sort of looking at what is the best solution in a particular environment, for example.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Carlin: So some of the later sites, we've got that in mind. rather than looking at a three acre site, we may well be looking at a 6, 7 acre site but and possibly even larger than that depending on what we're generating.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Brilliant. Mike, if we can move on to kind of how the world has changed, I guess. so you set up Map Group in in nineteen ninety-three, you said. I think the internet was something like nineteen ninety five that that was invented. So the world has changed a lot since you first stepped into the world of business. If we take kind of what Map Group and and Latos do and put them to one side. How do you
Mike Carlin: No.
Dave Stubberfield: think the business world has changed? So for people that are setting up brand new businesses, what what for you has changed in that sort of thirty odd years?
Mike Carlin: Cool. From a communication point of view everything because you know we're talking in fact even the fax machine was relatively new when I first set up. I can recall it was cost, my first fax machine I bought from the BT outlet in Middlesbrough and it cost me about 450 pound.
Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant.
Mike Carlin: Yeah and if you then wanted to actually send a fax prior to owning a fax machine. It was £2.50 a page. So, you know, from telecommunications side, it's changed significantly. But I think the basic principles of business still remain the same today as they were 30, 40, 50 years ago. I think from a point of view, you need to have a clear vision of what you need, what you're looking to do. Keep that as simple as you possibly can. Get the right team around you and talk to them. Don't keep secrets. Be straight and honest with them.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mike Carlin: It might sound simplistic, but it works. If you're and honest with people, they'll work with you. And that reduces churn, labor churn. Labor churn actually results in more productivity. because you're not having to retrain all of the time and therefore more profitability at the long term.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah, fascinating. You make it sound so simple, Mike, and you know, I know that there are challenges in any any business and sometimes I'm gonna put it under the same bracket, but people challenges. and building the right team. I think a massive part of that in what I see is you can have the right team. Communication's another thing you've mentioned as well, is but how do they communicate With the other teams around them, how do you stop that silo way of working? it's very difficult sometimes because people get into a mindset of, well, this is the work I need to do, so let's just get on and do it. And it's sometimes difficult for for people to sort of see what's happening to the left and to the right of them. And I think that's where that vision really becomes apparent because that helps people to see what the the the direction is we're traveling in and where we need to go. If you were giving advice to
Mike Carlin: Thank
Dave Stubberfield: to someone starting up a business or They're looking to grow their business and get to a point. What would be the biggest thing you would say to them in terms of kind of overcoming silos in departments?
Mike Carlin: is to keep, well, keep it simple. First of all, that's the biggest, biggest item. you know, when I start talking to some of the guys, it seems to get very complicated.
Dave Stubberfield: Mm.
Mike Carlin: And as soon as things get complicated, people switch off because quite simply, they either don't understand or they can't see how that'll work in the entire environment.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: So keeping that straightforward. and directing people so that they know exactly what their role and responsibility is within the entire team rather than actually just piling everything onto one or two people break it down and actually explain who is responsible for what.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Great shout. something you said to me before really stuck with me is you said that you take people who turn up in their underwear and train them. what does that say about your approach to capability building and and standards when it comes to to employing people?
Mike Carlin: Well, first and foremost, it says that I'm keen to actually directly employ as many people as I can. You know, just employing, if you like, subcontractors, which I've got nothing against as contractors, but I believe, you know, it needs to have a good mix and the mix needs to be more on directly employed with then subcontractors, ensuring the infill want of a better work. So directly employed, we would then train them in all of the appropriate standards they require for what we're employing them for, provide them with the appropriate tooling to do the job right, and therefore do the job right first time and safely, which is vitally important.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, massive, massive, absolutely. just kind of looking back on on your sort of history in business, Mike, it'd be very difficult to say that your experiences haven't shaped who you are and how you how you lead. how would you say your leadership style has changed over the last thirty odd years?
Mike Carlin: a lot more less hands on now than what it was.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: I think when I first started, I would say I actually got far too involved in too many things and therefore didn't allow other people to actually execute what you've asked them to do. So you learn by time that you need to step back and allow. the management team to manage and therefore I spend more time on if you like the vision rather than actually sitting down and saying we're going to do this we're going to do that explain to the team what I'm looking for and then leave them do that.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Carlin: I think that's the biggest biggest change I've found.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, it's really interesting that I I I'm again, people that I've worked with in the past, they've they have problems sometimes with with their team or management coming to them with problems. and they feel like they're getting stuck in the weeds of stuff. And if if you can give people autonomy as well to say, look, if this is in your control, go and fix it, if you can. come to me with the problem a and a potential solution if you want to kind of look it over and check it over. But if you see a an opportunity to improve something or change something, then then go and do it. And You mentioned it earlier, it's the capability. You you can train that. You can you can instill that mindset into people and give them the the the tools and techniques to
Mike Carlin: Thank
Dave Stubberfield: be able to do that. So it's that's fascinating. this is a bit of a a tricky question, I think, Mike, but it but could it could be easy.
Mike Carlin: Thank
Dave Stubberfield: what's a decision you'd make differently today compared to to early Mike running the business?
Mike Carlin: dear me. That's a hard one.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: I don't think there's one actual decision which would stand out,
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: to be honest with you. I think it's a lot of smaller decisions. I think pigheadedness was one of them.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: I think at certain points you feel you're right even when you're wrong.
Dave Stubberfield: Mm-hmm.
Mike Carlin: you know, that's, that's, you start realizing that at a later date. And I think that comes with maturity as well. You
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Carlin: know, I think enthusiasm at the start, you're full of that much enthusiasm that, you know, you need to learn to control and manage that enthusiasm because you can run away too much. you're telling people that much. that you start playing with the head as it were to
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: get confused with what you're doing because you're like a fly, you're all over the place
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: and you need to manage that and actually then pass that through in specific requests and tasks, et cetera, you set people.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I think I think the kind of the pig headedness is interesting because I think there's sometimes where that is required. and it's I think it's knowing when to turn it on, turn it off sometimes. And again, that enthusiasm, it's it's great to bring people along on that journey and get people motivated for it. But like you say, there's a risk of kind of running too far down the track or down the road where it's difficult to then bring people along on that journey. So it's it is interesting. Mike, just kind of sort of going for a a personal lens. you've been married for nearly forty five years, you've got children, you've got five grandchildren. How has
Mike Carlin: Yep.
Dave Stubberfield: family life influenced how you look at business, leadership, and success?
Mike Carlin: Well, I think from a point of view of success, I never view myself as being successful. It's a case of, yes, I've achieved various goals, but I'm constantly setting further goals to achieve more.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Carlin: Unfortunately, my wife's trying to encourage me to retire, et cetera. And quite frankly, I don't think I'll ever be able to. I think from a family point of view, yeah, I've mellowed significantly over the years. I think not as much with my kids, it's more when the grandkids came along. And I've sort of learned to be a lot more, what, accepting
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Carlin: with the grandkids than... than even with my own kids. Where Mattie, my son, he works in the business now. He's the MD of Matt Group now.
Dave Stubberfield: Okay.
Mike Carlin: So he's took on the mantle, as it were.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. I love that. Mike, we're we're coming towards the end of this this conversation, which I've found fascinating. I I've got a couple more questions before we we sort of do a a little bit of rapid fire. so I guess you've got grand plans and ambitions for what you want to achieve. What do you want the UK to look like in that five to seven years if Latos d delivers the vision you you've set out?
Mike Carlin: think what I'd like to see is actually the UK being at the forefront of technology and using the intellect which is actually housed within the UK and to fully utilise that throughout the world, hopefully rather than actually see the intellect actually moving abroad.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, it's that I I think that's that's that's key for for the success of the country, I think, in the in the next next few years for sure. if a lead if a leader that's listening wants to be early to the next wave, like you were with with data and AI, what would be the advice and not what should they do tomorrow, but what should they do today?
Mike Carlin: I'm not sure they should do today, so I'll be reading and looking at what opportunities will be available further down the line. I think to actually try copy somebody is the wrong way. I think it's actually trying to understand the opportunities now and then consider what opportunities that will create in a year, two, three years time
Dave Stubberfield: Mm.
Mike Carlin: and try and actually go for that.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. It's it's that's so true. I mean, my world of of customer experience, you get so many companies that see someone that does customer experience really well and go, we'll just copy what they're doing, but it doesn't work like that. You you've got your own values, your own vision, th your own culture intern internally and what your customers actually value. You can't just kind of copy and paste, lift and shift what what someone else might be doing. You you you've got your own context that you need to to be true to. so yeah, that's that's that's I like that. That's very, very true. Mike, you've you've seen the world transform over a period of years in business. What's one sort of transformation truth, if you like, that you've learned the hard way that most people only realise when it's too late?
Mike Carlin: It's to think you've actually made it
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: because there's always somebody going to knock you down. I learned massive lessons in 2012 when I actually lost a majority of the business to competition. I was convinced at that point that I was the most competitive in the marketplace and I couldn't be knocked away from that. Over a thousand engineers at that point. and I lost it by basically competition coming in and cutting the price.
Dave Stubberfield: Wow. Yeah. Yeah, it's that's I mean, it's a great example that you can never rest on your laurels. It's the world world will always constantly change. Mike, that's been fantastic to have you on. Before we we fully wrap up, I've got three rapid fire questions. so what's one habit that you won't compromise on?
Mike Carlin: Honesty.
Dave Stubberfield: Honestly, I love that. one mistake that's taught you the most?
Mike Carlin: Smoking.
Dave Stubberfield: I love that as well. and one thing that leaders don't talk about enough.
Mike Carlin: their personal well-being, I think.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. Mike, it's been fantastic to have you on the podcast. thank you for for sharing your stories, your insights, the challenges you've you've seen, and the challenges on the horizon for you. I I look forward to to keeping an eye on on the success and the stories as they move forward with with all of your ventures. thank you for coming on. It's been fantastic to have you.
Mike Carlin: You're welcome, Dave. All the best to you.
Mike Carlin: I'm very good thank you Dave, and yourself.
Dave Stubberfield: Good, good. Yeah, I'm very well, thank you, mate. Very well. Mike, for those that that don't know you, are listening for the first time, what is Map Group and what do you do in the UK market and what's your role in the business?
Mike Carlin: Well, I'll start with the role. I'm the original founder and the CEO of Map Group. We founded the business or I founded the business in 1993. Originally as an electrical contractor. But we then morphed into cable TV and telephony under Comcast in 1995. and then focused more and more on telecoms so currently we are builders of fiber optic networks and connectivity of networks throughout the UK.
Dave Stubberfield: Amazing. and you're also building Latos data centers. So how can you explain the connection between fiber and AI factories in one sentence?
Mike Carlin: Well, in one sentence rather difficult.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: It's all to do with connectivity and accessibility to the internet and the wider AI of things,
Dave Stubberfield: Okay.
Mike Carlin: or the internet of things.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. And and and Latos is is is new in a sense, but it's been a few years in the making, hasn't it?
Mike Carlin: Yes, Latos, we actually built, we started Latos about five years ago when I recognised firstly that there was an opportunity for data centers and with being in the building industry, I started looking at that potential. But very quickly realised that AI factories were really the key going forward. So we focused on small factories. i.e. 20 megawatt factories rather than huge 500 megawatt data centers and our aim and target is to build 20 of these AI factories around the UK over the next five years.
Dave Stubberfield: Amazing. A and you've described the mission as kind of making AI accessible to British businesses and the public. U what does accessible mean in reality?
Mike Carlin: Well first and foremost I think we need to consider sovereignty and sovereignty is something all of the board of Leitos are all English and therefore we fully own by English companies rather than if you look on the data center side of it around 80 % I understand of all data centers are owned by American companies who are actually managing our data in the UK.
Dave Stubberfield: Right. Okay. Brilliant. And the c the cloud is owned by a handful of players and AI shouldn't be owned the same way. This this is kind of a conversation we've had before. What's the risk if it is?
Mike Carlin: I think if we actually look at cloud, we're actually dictated to by, as you rightly say, a handful of companies who dictate the accessibility, the cost, et cetera, of our IT. AI, you know, it's claiming it is open to all, which it should be. So as such, we make it accessible to local authorities. We'll make it accessible to... businesses, it large or small businesses.
Dave Stubberfield: Right in.
Mike Carlin: And that will intend to throughout the UK. And we'll also be offering, we use the term latency, which means that we're building the data centers where real time utilisation can be achieved. That's to say within 40 kilometers of the length of fibre. is real time so as such if you're within that 40 kilometer catchment area people businesses will be will actually use AI real time no delay
Dave Stubberfield: And just like AI is is massive at the minute. Everywhere you turn, there's an organisation that's got a a brand new AI strategy or they want to embed AI into their ways of working. Who is the AI factory designed to serve and and and what are you hoping that people will use AI for from your factories?
Mike Carlin: I think first of all, the AI will be serving all of the business communities. So we're not earmarking it for one particular product or service. So from the AI factory point of view, we are facilitating other businesses who will manage their own chips in the factory itself. that's to say, imagine it's like a car park. We don't dictate the car which is actually going to be parked in the car park or what it's going to be used for So it will be actually the AI will be used for multiple uses within the same environment
Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant. I love that analogy because again it's you want to make sure the the parking space is big enough for people to get their car in. So it's it's pe giving people the right access, I guess, to be able to get in and and do what they want to do. I love that. That's a great analogy. you said that the latency is vital and that kind of that rough kind of forty kilometres fibre length is is kind of that real time. W why is that important to to users and and for anyone that's listening?
Mike Carlin: Well, if you think first of all, let's say it's good, well, it will be used for medical operations, for example.
Dave Stubberfield: Okay.
Mike Carlin: The last thing you want is a stutter. know, if you imagine when you're downloading a film and it goes on delay for a couple of seconds, you know, if you're having an operation, it wouldn't be all that comfortable if you were aware that delays were going to occur. So real time is critical in them factors. If we look at utilization on traffic, so the intelligent car, again it would need to be operated real time rather than with a delay.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. I I think for me that kind of underlines the kind of the the the way the the infrastructure is right now, and how it can change and evolve. You you just highlighted two really key areas where technology is growing, some kind of medical and and sort of automated cars is that delay i it's not it's not feasible. That cannot happen. so that that's just kind of shows the power of technology and how AI can be a massive driving force moving forward. and you've just actually broken ground on the on the first factory, haven't you?
Mike Carlin: That's correct, yes. The first AI factory will actually be built in Stockton on Tees. So we actually broke ground on that and commencing the build, which will take approximately 18 months. we're breaking ground. We've actually built the compounds are all done now. We're forming all the inside the compounds with the main contractor. to then obviously commence the full build over the coming weeks.
Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant. Brilliant. And this goes hand in hand with what you're doing at Map Group and you've got two other businesses, right?
Mike Carlin: Yes, what we've also got is Latos. Sorry, Latos data centers is then attached to another company I own called Vanta AI Limited. Vanta actually owns and manages NVIDIA chips, which are the chips which operate within the sphere of AI. So we've set that up. The chips are currently housed over in Canada. and they're actually getting fully utilized as we speak.
Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant. Brilliant.
Mike Carlin: And adjacent to that, we've also got another company called Plugilow, which is a company based in Germany, as well as Vietnam and America. And that is to look at the way in which we actually use the internet. And we've actually created a safer way of utilisation of the internet, using AI tools as part of that. Again, it's difficult to try and break it down into a few sentences, quite honestly, but it's full utilisation of AI.
Dave Stubberfield: So it's it's very clear to me how these businesses interlink and kind of help one another, I guess, is what I'm trying to trying to get at. And they they serve a purpose to one another, not only to to the public and and businesses as well. What's been the challenge, Mike? You you've been in business with Map Group since nineteen ninety three, you've you've had a a fantastic success there in the in the world of fibre and you're now branching out into to AI and technology. What's been the biggest challenge along the way? Maybe with Map Group, but kind of then starting up with Latos. What's been the biggest challenge of recent?
Mike Carlin: an awful lot of challenges with MAP Group, first of all, because we actually went from the cable TV era, which was basically copper and then transitioning over to more of the fibre build. The difficulties of that are the investment within that environment. We have peaks and troughs, so we need to actually move with them. So sales, example, 2008, 2009, were starting to dip down. We then lost some contracts. were doing work for Virgin Media, for example, in 2012. So I lost about 90 % of my workforce under to be transferred to a competitor. We therefore struggled through for a few years keeping the main staff. all fully employed. We then were successful in winning work with Open Reach and gradually started building the business back up. Where we now in Map Group we're achieving about 95 million turnover this current year.
Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant. Fantastic. And again, that just goes to show that the challenges along the way can can be make or break, but it's it's down to to the leadership to help, I guess, steady the ship and then get get you back on your way and and find some stability. those lessons you've learned with with Map Group, how are you taking that into the world of AI and Latos? Because what you're doing there building these factories, that requires massive investment, right?
Mike Carlin: That's correct. we've initially, if you like the proof of concept, we've actually invested in that ourselves. So we've went around, procured land around the country. So we've got half a dozen different sites on that and paid for the appropriate planning permission, et cetera. And all of the associated investment with design. So we've actually completed completely redesigned the AI centers from inside to out. We've worked very closely with the likes of CBRE to assist with that. We've had discussions with Nvidia to ensure that everything will comply with the requirements laid out by Nvidia. And we're now to a point where, as I mentioned, we're actually breaking ground. So we're now currently out talking to investors.
Dave Stubberfield: Okay. Brilliant. And y you you're targeting those kind of twenty sites across the UK. What's the timescale to get those those twenty sites up and running, do you think?
Mike Carlin: We're looking between five and seven years.
Dave Stubberfield: Wow. Wow. Very ambitious then.
Mike Carlin: Well it needs to be. The speed AI is actually coming at us. If I said 10 to 15 years I'd miss the boat.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, yeah, it's very true. It's very true. I I g I guess how how do you decide where these sites are gonna be? I mean, y you mentioned there you've you've procured sites and land already. What what what goes into the decision making there to to understand where the best sites might be?
Mike Carlin: Well, first of all, it's population. We need to consider and ensure that we're actually building in reasonable population areas. That's one of the first objectives. From there, power. So we need power. Thankfully, we're not as power hungry on AI as we are on data centers. And I'm not rubbish in data centers in any way here, and I'll explain a little more later on that. But the AI We identified there need to be smaller clusters. The requirement we're setting out is between 15 and 20 megawatt of power. To give you some idea, a big data center is between 250 and 500 megawatt of power. So we're taking significantly less power. And therefore our opportunity to build within the populous areas it gives us more and more opportunity. Couple that with less land size we need three, three and half acres of land rather than 50, 100, 150 acres of land.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Carlin: So from that in itself it actually focuses more on what we call neural edge
Dave Stubberfield: Yep.
Mike Carlin: centres.
Dave Stubberfield: Okay.
Mike Carlin: So it's AI Neural Edge is our target market.
Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant. Amazing. What what what do you see kind of being the biggest risk when it comes to execution in this kind of first build, Mike? Is it something that could make or break the model perhaps?
Mike Carlin: In a sense, yes. I don't believe we will break the model because if we consider there is virtually no space available for deployment of AI across the world at this moment in time, never mind in the UK. So, you you're talking one or 2 % space allocation is left to actually place the chips. So for the first two, three, five AI centers, we don't see any risk whatsoever. And again, all of the forecasters saying that we will require more and more and more of the AI. And as a consequence of that, we will need more and more data centers to store the actions carried out by AI. So both AI and data centers will constantly grow.
Dave Stubberfield: Mm. Wow. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. And you you mentioned that you've already invested yourselves in this first build, quite a substantial amount as well. What message do you think that sends to to others? And again, they could be investors, but kind of I guess stakeholders potentially or people that are interested in in seeing what comes of this. What kind of message do you think that that sends? Do you think it shows a level of commitment that you have to this?
Mike Carlin: Yes, wanted first and foremost, we needed to actually demonstrate our commitment to this rather than actually going out and saying to investors, we've got an idea. Please give us the money to convert the idea into reality. We've actually put sufficient funds in and, you know, I'm referring to sufficient funds. You know, this is in the region of between and 20 million pounds up to now. So it's not. It's not just a few bob from the back pocket.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: This is serious investment we've made. So yes, there is risk. I think there's risk with every business opportunity. But by being focused on what we're doing, I believe we will get success.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah, fascinating. Fascinating. We we mentioned kind of the the speed and pace of AI and and technology and how fast that's changing. Is it a risk or a fear maybe that you could be sort of behind the curve by the time you you start in the next build? Do do you feel like there's there's th the technology's changing, you have to keep up with that to make sure that all of the centres you're building are sort of up to s up to sort of state of the art technology?
Mike Carlin: Yeah, very good question. We actually build the centers. We have two buildings on each of the centers,
Dave Stubberfield: Okay.
Mike Carlin: both capable of up to about 48 racks, which is how we actually measure the space. But our original calculations are around rack capacity of 250 kilowatt. But on phase two, we could actually reduce the number of racks but increase the power size to up
Dave Stubberfield: Right.
Mike Carlin: to 600 kilowatt.
Dave Stubberfield: Wow.
Mike Carlin: So we've looked at that in relation to the to the cooling the heights of the buildings so the full design so we've endeavored the future proof as much as we Know at this moment in time
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Brilliant.
Mike Carlin: But we need to continue doing that going forward. So we're always at the ground and understanding what the marketplace is telling us.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I I guess one other thing that has occurred to me, Mike, is I've I've seen it quite a lot recently, is the environmental impact of people using AI. And it's great that there's trends and you can sort of generate your own image and you can put it on social media. It's it's funny, it's great, you can share it with friends. But there are there are people out there that go but it's costing an awful lot to to cool these centres down. Is that something that's come into your thinking as you as you build these sites and progress forward with the business?
Mike Carlin: without doubt, you know, we need to be responsible in all aspects. So cooling, for example, we're actually using a fixed loop cooling system. So we're not actually drawing millions of gallons of water on a week by week basis to cool the system. It's actually a closed loop system, which we top up. So we're not using masses of water. However, we do need to be very mindful of For example, the power consumption. Where do we get the power from? Are we just relying on the grid or are we looking at green solutions? Which the answer is we are looking at every type of solution we can. And the more direct wire, which is effectively utilization of power plants, of various types of power and green energies, we will then put them into the AI centers first, with effectively the grid being the backup.
Dave Stubberfield: Okay.
Mike Carlin: So that's something which will all take time. We haven't got the answer to everything now, but we are talking to a number of power producers and are talking to them about solutions where we could potentially co-locate AI and power generation on
Dave Stubberfield: Yep.
Mike Carlin: the same site.
Dave Stubberfield: Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That I I find that fascinating 'cause that just goes to show that yes, there's innovation in terms of what you're building with these these AI A AI centers, but there's different ways of of looking at how they can sort of work in in harmony with with other things like power as an example. That's great.
Mike Carlin: Well, yeah, it's vitally important that we are talking to a number of people on this because there's a number of different solutions. So
Dave Stubberfield: Mm.
Mike Carlin: rather than just go down the route of one solution, we're sort of looking at what is the best solution in a particular environment, for example.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Carlin: So some of the later sites, we've got that in mind. rather than looking at a three acre site, we may well be looking at a 6, 7 acre site but and possibly even larger than that depending on what we're generating.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Brilliant. Mike, if we can move on to kind of how the world has changed, I guess. so you set up Map Group in in nineteen ninety-three, you said. I think the internet was something like nineteen ninety five that that was invented. So the world has changed a lot since you first stepped into the world of business. If we take kind of what Map Group and and Latos do and put them to one side. How do you
Mike Carlin: No.
Dave Stubberfield: think the business world has changed? So for people that are setting up brand new businesses, what what for you has changed in that sort of thirty odd years?
Mike Carlin: Cool. From a communication point of view everything because you know we're talking in fact even the fax machine was relatively new when I first set up. I can recall it was cost, my first fax machine I bought from the BT outlet in Middlesbrough and it cost me about 450 pound.
Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant.
Mike Carlin: Yeah and if you then wanted to actually send a fax prior to owning a fax machine. It was £2.50 a page. So, you know, from telecommunications side, it's changed significantly. But I think the basic principles of business still remain the same today as they were 30, 40, 50 years ago. I think from a point of view, you need to have a clear vision of what you need, what you're looking to do. Keep that as simple as you possibly can. Get the right team around you and talk to them. Don't keep secrets. Be straight and honest with them.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mike Carlin: It might sound simplistic, but it works. If you're and honest with people, they'll work with you. And that reduces churn, labor churn. Labor churn actually results in more productivity. because you're not having to retrain all of the time and therefore more profitability at the long term.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah, fascinating. You make it sound so simple, Mike, and you know, I know that there are challenges in any any business and sometimes I'm gonna put it under the same bracket, but people challenges. and building the right team. I think a massive part of that in what I see is you can have the right team. Communication's another thing you've mentioned as well, is but how do they communicate With the other teams around them, how do you stop that silo way of working? it's very difficult sometimes because people get into a mindset of, well, this is the work I need to do, so let's just get on and do it. And it's sometimes difficult for for people to sort of see what's happening to the left and to the right of them. And I think that's where that vision really becomes apparent because that helps people to see what the the the direction is we're traveling in and where we need to go. If you were giving advice to
Mike Carlin: Thank
Dave Stubberfield: to someone starting up a business or They're looking to grow their business and get to a point. What would be the biggest thing you would say to them in terms of kind of overcoming silos in departments?
Mike Carlin: is to keep, well, keep it simple. First of all, that's the biggest, biggest item. you know, when I start talking to some of the guys, it seems to get very complicated.
Dave Stubberfield: Mm.
Mike Carlin: And as soon as things get complicated, people switch off because quite simply, they either don't understand or they can't see how that'll work in the entire environment.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: So keeping that straightforward. and directing people so that they know exactly what their role and responsibility is within the entire team rather than actually just piling everything onto one or two people break it down and actually explain who is responsible for what.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Great shout. something you said to me before really stuck with me is you said that you take people who turn up in their underwear and train them. what does that say about your approach to capability building and and standards when it comes to to employing people?
Mike Carlin: Well, first and foremost, it says that I'm keen to actually directly employ as many people as I can. You know, just employing, if you like, subcontractors, which I've got nothing against as contractors, but I believe, you know, it needs to have a good mix and the mix needs to be more on directly employed with then subcontractors, ensuring the infill want of a better work. So directly employed, we would then train them in all of the appropriate standards they require for what we're employing them for, provide them with the appropriate tooling to do the job right, and therefore do the job right first time and safely, which is vitally important.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, massive, massive, absolutely. just kind of looking back on on your sort of history in business, Mike, it'd be very difficult to say that your experiences haven't shaped who you are and how you how you lead. how would you say your leadership style has changed over the last thirty odd years?
Mike Carlin: a lot more less hands on now than what it was.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: I think when I first started, I would say I actually got far too involved in too many things and therefore didn't allow other people to actually execute what you've asked them to do. So you learn by time that you need to step back and allow. the management team to manage and therefore I spend more time on if you like the vision rather than actually sitting down and saying we're going to do this we're going to do that explain to the team what I'm looking for and then leave them do that.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Carlin: I think that's the biggest biggest change I've found.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, it's really interesting that I I I'm again, people that I've worked with in the past, they've they have problems sometimes with with their team or management coming to them with problems. and they feel like they're getting stuck in the weeds of stuff. And if if you can give people autonomy as well to say, look, if this is in your control, go and fix it, if you can. come to me with the problem a and a potential solution if you want to kind of look it over and check it over. But if you see a an opportunity to improve something or change something, then then go and do it. And You mentioned it earlier, it's the capability. You you can train that. You can you can instill that mindset into people and give them the the the tools and techniques to
Mike Carlin: Thank
Dave Stubberfield: be able to do that. So it's that's fascinating. this is a bit of a a tricky question, I think, Mike, but it but could it could be easy.
Mike Carlin: Thank
Dave Stubberfield: what's a decision you'd make differently today compared to to early Mike running the business?
Mike Carlin: dear me. That's a hard one.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: I don't think there's one actual decision which would stand out,
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: to be honest with you. I think it's a lot of smaller decisions. I think pigheadedness was one of them.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: I think at certain points you feel you're right even when you're wrong.
Dave Stubberfield: Mm-hmm.
Mike Carlin: you know, that's, that's, you start realizing that at a later date. And I think that comes with maturity as well. You
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Carlin: know, I think enthusiasm at the start, you're full of that much enthusiasm that, you know, you need to learn to control and manage that enthusiasm because you can run away too much. you're telling people that much. that you start playing with the head as it were to
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: get confused with what you're doing because you're like a fly, you're all over the place
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: and you need to manage that and actually then pass that through in specific requests and tasks, et cetera, you set people.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I think I think the kind of the pig headedness is interesting because I think there's sometimes where that is required. and it's I think it's knowing when to turn it on, turn it off sometimes. And again, that enthusiasm, it's it's great to bring people along on that journey and get people motivated for it. But like you say, there's a risk of kind of running too far down the track or down the road where it's difficult to then bring people along on that journey. So it's it is interesting. Mike, just kind of sort of going for a a personal lens. you've been married for nearly forty five years, you've got children, you've got five grandchildren. How has
Mike Carlin: Yep.
Dave Stubberfield: family life influenced how you look at business, leadership, and success?
Mike Carlin: Well, I think from a point of view of success, I never view myself as being successful. It's a case of, yes, I've achieved various goals, but I'm constantly setting further goals to achieve more.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Carlin: Unfortunately, my wife's trying to encourage me to retire, et cetera. And quite frankly, I don't think I'll ever be able to. I think from a family point of view, yeah, I've mellowed significantly over the years. I think not as much with my kids, it's more when the grandkids came along. And I've sort of learned to be a lot more, what, accepting
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Carlin: with the grandkids than... than even with my own kids. Where Mattie, my son, he works in the business now. He's the MD of Matt Group now.
Dave Stubberfield: Okay.
Mike Carlin: So he's took on the mantle, as it were.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. I love that. Mike, we're we're coming towards the end of this this conversation, which I've found fascinating. I I've got a couple more questions before we we sort of do a a little bit of rapid fire. so I guess you've got grand plans and ambitions for what you want to achieve. What do you want the UK to look like in that five to seven years if Latos d delivers the vision you you've set out?
Mike Carlin: think what I'd like to see is actually the UK being at the forefront of technology and using the intellect which is actually housed within the UK and to fully utilise that throughout the world, hopefully rather than actually see the intellect actually moving abroad.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, it's that I I think that's that's that's key for for the success of the country, I think, in the in the next next few years for sure. if a lead if a leader that's listening wants to be early to the next wave, like you were with with data and AI, what would be the advice and not what should they do tomorrow, but what should they do today?
Mike Carlin: I'm not sure they should do today, so I'll be reading and looking at what opportunities will be available further down the line. I think to actually try copy somebody is the wrong way. I think it's actually trying to understand the opportunities now and then consider what opportunities that will create in a year, two, three years time
Dave Stubberfield: Mm.
Mike Carlin: and try and actually go for that.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. It's it's that's so true. I mean, my world of of customer experience, you get so many companies that see someone that does customer experience really well and go, we'll just copy what they're doing, but it doesn't work like that. You you've got your own values, your own vision, th your own culture intern internally and what your customers actually value. You can't just kind of copy and paste, lift and shift what what someone else might be doing. You you you've got your own context that you need to to be true to. so yeah, that's that's that's I like that. That's very, very true. Mike, you've you've seen the world transform over a period of years in business. What's one sort of transformation truth, if you like, that you've learned the hard way that most people only realise when it's too late?
Mike Carlin: It's to think you've actually made it
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah.
Mike Carlin: because there's always somebody going to knock you down. I learned massive lessons in 2012 when I actually lost a majority of the business to competition. I was convinced at that point that I was the most competitive in the marketplace and I couldn't be knocked away from that. Over a thousand engineers at that point. and I lost it by basically competition coming in and cutting the price.
Dave Stubberfield: Wow. Yeah. Yeah, it's that's I mean, it's a great example that you can never rest on your laurels. It's the world world will always constantly change. Mike, that's been fantastic to have you on. Before we we fully wrap up, I've got three rapid fire questions. so what's one habit that you won't compromise on?
Mike Carlin: Honesty.
Dave Stubberfield: Honestly, I love that. one mistake that's taught you the most?
Mike Carlin: Smoking.
Dave Stubberfield: I love that as well. and one thing that leaders don't talk about enough.
Mike Carlin: their personal well-being, I think.
Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. Mike, it's been fantastic to have you on the podcast. thank you for for sharing your stories, your insights, the challenges you've you've seen, and the challenges on the horizon for you. I I look forward to to keeping an eye on on the success and the stories as they move forward with with all of your ventures. thank you for coming on. It's been fantastic to have you.
Mike Carlin: You're welcome, Dave. All the best to you.
