Master Failure

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Welcome back to the episode of
the Startup Therapy Podcast.

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This is Ryan Rutan, joined
as always by Will Schroeder,

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my friend, the founder,
and CEO of startups.com.

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Will, failure is one of those
things that's omnipresent

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in the founder space.

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We talk about it a lot.

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We talk about failing fast.

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We talk about all this stuff
around failure, and it's

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funny if we think about
it, this podcast is an

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exercise in exactly that,
like a founder's willingness

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to fail and then to just.

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Keep going anyways, because
our first couple episodes

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of this podcast, which we'll
never see the light of day,

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were abject failures, right?

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They were failed, so pieces
of content, but we kept going.

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And so as you think about
failure across your 30 plus year

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career doing this stuff, how
good have you gotten it failing?

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I'm so good at failing.

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I'm the heman master of
the universe at failing.

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And, and I'm proud to say
that, and I don't say that to

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be like controversial, right?

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Like, oh, he's proud
to fail, right?

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Or like, I'm shielding this.

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Like, you know,
otherwise regret.

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In fact, you know,
we'll talk about that.

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It's the actually the opposite.

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Like I say that because you
have to have a lot of balls

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to fail and then fail again.

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And then fail again and
just keep on coming back.

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But if you do.

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Keep pretending that
you're sure it's gonna work

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the next time, rightly.

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Absolutely, man.

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Yep.

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And actually let me
modify that a bit.

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I'm never sure it's gonna work.

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No, that's, that's
why I said pretend.

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That's why I said pretend.

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Yeah,

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yeah, yeah,

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yeah.

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You're telling everybody else,
you're like, okay team, we're

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gonna do it this way this time.

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And we're like, is it
gonna work this time?

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Like, yes, we, it's
going to right.

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You have to hope it will.

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Yes.

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Ly you have somewhat
believe that it might.

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Yeah, I agree.

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Well, and the truth is
you just don't know.

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Right?

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And I think that's what we're
gonna talk about is what's

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it like for a founder to get
really, really good at failing?

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I think I, I would argue
it's maybe one of the

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greatest superpowers
you can possibly have.

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Yep.

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I wanna talk about
where it comes from.

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I wanna talk about like how
we've developed it, how we use

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it in our everyDay@startups.com
and at some degree

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in our lives as well.

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And.

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Why I think most founders,
especially new founders,

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are just looking at
it the wrong way.

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I actually, I'll go zoom out.

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I think most people in life
have have a misappropriated

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version of failure.

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They, they logically say, I
have to avoid failure at the

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expense of doing anything.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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And I think that's the
real problem, right?

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When you spend your
time trying to avoid.

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Failure.

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You're, you're missing out on
a lot, but you're trying to

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optimize for something that you
can't possibly optimize for.

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Right.

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Which is success, which
is like, if you knew what

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to go and do, then Sure.

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But we don't, most of the
time, especially in our space,

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to me, it's like hearing
a founder say like, they,

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they just, they wanna make
sure that they're right.

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Like that's not a
lecture that we get.

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Right.

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Saying that you wanna be right,
which is essentially saying.

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I want to avoid failure it
be tantamount to a boxer

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saying, I'm just going
to avoid all the punches.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Right, right.

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Yeah.

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Your job is not
to never get hit.

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Your job is to take the hit.

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Right.

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Keep your guard up and
finish the damn round.

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Right.

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That's what you gotta do.

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That's what being a founder is.

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Yeah.

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Let's set the tone.

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We always say this,
you're going into a market

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that's never existed.

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Yes.

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With a product that's
never existed, with a

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team that's never existed.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And you also probably
don't know shit.

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Correct.

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So.

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Combine all of those things.

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Where is the basis for
certainty in this business?

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It does not exist.

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We're not in the
success business, man.

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We are in the error, rapid
error correction business.

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That's what we're in.

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And I think like if we, if we
pull somebody into our world,

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we talk about this a lot.

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Like we transplant someone
from the real world, right?

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Yeah.

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Into our weird
matrix world, right?

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And they look at what
we do for a living.

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They're like, this
makes no sense.

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Because it doesn't, okay.

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But they will logically
say, they'll logically say.

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I don't wanna do something
like that because I don't

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know the right decision.

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Yeah.

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I wanna go to my job.

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In fact, I was talking
to a buddy of mine.

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This is actually just is so
timely over this weekend.

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I was talking to a buddy
of mine that I've known him

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since middle school, right.

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Uhhuh.

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So a very long time.

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He started out in
the startup world.

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He was one of the guys that,
uh, helped start price line, if

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you remember Price line back in.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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You know, wait,

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you went to middle school
with William Shatner?

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Me and Billy.

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Me and Billy.

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And so he's clearly, you
know, had that, that side.

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Yep.

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But he works for McKeson now.

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He's a corporate
attorney for McKesson.

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He has the safest
job in the world.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's, and he was talking
to me about how proud

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he was of his safety.

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He knows better.

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Right?

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He's like, I've been on the
other side of things where

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like I have no idea where
my next meal's coming from.

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And he's like, I'm in
my fifties now, dude.

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I'm not even trying to do that.

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Right.

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That is a very logical way

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Sure.

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Of looking at the world, right.

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Our version of looking
at the world is we run

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the other direction.

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Yeah.

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Right, and, and I think when
people start to do that, and

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a lot of the folks that are
listening to this podcast,

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you know, for folks listening,
if this is one of your first.

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Time's listening to the
podcast, we have two

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segments of our audience.

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One segment of our audience
just decided they wanna build

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a startup five seconds ago,
and that might be you and the

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other segment of our audience
are very, very, very senior

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and seasoned, and they just
listen to these episodes,

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just nodding their head the
entire time, and it's a bit

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of a trip down memory lane.

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Yeah,

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so I, I think, Ryan,
let's speak to both of

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those folks for a second.

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Sure.

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For the folks that are
the grizzled veterans,

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you know exactly what
we're talking about.

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There's no way you could have
become a grizzled veteran on

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the, I only get a right move.

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Right.

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That doesn't happen
on a whiteboard.

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It does not.

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And for the folks just
getting into this, I think

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this is an important episode
for you because I think

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it's important for you to
understand how important.

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Learning failure is okay.

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Yeah.

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And so, Ryan, when you
think about like, the

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problem of avoiding failure
as a concept, right?

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For, again, these younger
folks, how would you

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describe that problem?

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What, what is the problem when
you start avoiding failure?

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You're steering a
parked car, right?

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Like nothing's gonna happen.

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I will spit my drink out.

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Sorry about that.

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I've never heard that term.

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I didn't intentionally
time that, I promise.

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Yeah, that was well done.

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So, but that's
what it is, right?

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Like you're just sitting
around, nothing's gonna happen.

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Right.

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I hate seeing and I watch
it happen a lot, right in

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my getting customer session
on Mondays and Fridays, it's

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a constant refrain because
nothing stalls a startup

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like founders who need like
perfect information before

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they make the decision, right?

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They want to know before
I decide that this will

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be the right decision.

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It's not how it works, right?

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I've realized lately that
so much of my feedback

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that I'm giving people
has this undercurrent of,

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and you're probably gonna
fail, and that's okay.

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And that's okay.

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Right, right.

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And like things like people
trying, like belaboring

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the point of we just, we
figured out like these five

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ICPs, we don't know which
one to go after first.

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I'm like, put 'em in a hat.

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Draw one doesn't matter.

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Right?

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Pick somewhere, rule
'em in, rule 'em out.

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You gotta start somewhere.

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The minute you're wrong
about one means you can

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move on to the next one.

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Means you can move on to
the next one, means you can

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move on to the next one.

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If you just sit around in
your boardroom talking about

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which one you think is maybe
gonna be the best choice,

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nothing's happening, right?

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Nothing is happening.

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It's amazing because again,
we come from worlds where

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you don't have that luxury.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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No barista at Starbucks can
just start making all the drinks

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and see which one works and
just hand them to customers.

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Correct.

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And be like, oh,
well, uh, didn't work.

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Didn't work.

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You'd be fired in a day.

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People don't like
scalded milk latte.

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Got it.

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You like, you just
don't get that luxury.

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Now in our world, it goes
the polar opposite direction

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of what people are used
to and what their logical

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comfort zone would be.

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We look at a problem and we
say, okay, there's 10 different

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ways we can go with this.

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We actually don't know which
one is the right answer.

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Yep, we're smart.

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We can kind of say, yeah,
this is probably more likely

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to be right than the others.

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So

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we often don't know and,
and we're talking about.

260
00:07:25,604 --> 00:07:26,114
Everything.

261
00:07:26,114 --> 00:07:28,275
Just so like, it's not
amorphous in what we're saying.

262
00:07:28,635 --> 00:07:31,215
We're talking about hiring
decisions, co-founder decisions,

263
00:07:31,335 --> 00:07:34,575
investor decisions, product
decisions, marketing decisions,

264
00:07:34,784 --> 00:07:38,414
HR decisions, like you name
it, there is a tremendous

265
00:07:38,414 --> 00:07:39,284
amount of uncertainty.

266
00:07:39,945 --> 00:07:41,895
And if in every case you're
like, well, we can't get

267
00:07:41,895 --> 00:07:43,635
it wrong, you will lose.

268
00:07:43,905 --> 00:07:45,960
You will lose, and
you'll, you'll lose too.

269
00:07:46,890 --> 00:07:50,099
You and I because we are
willing to make bad decisions.

270
00:07:50,130 --> 00:07:50,640
Exactly.

271
00:07:50,700 --> 00:07:52,469
And we know how to come back
from 'em, which is interesting.

272
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:53,010
Yeah.

273
00:07:53,070 --> 00:07:54,539
I think that's, that's
an important part of it.

274
00:07:54,719 --> 00:07:57,960
To me, again, it's so painful
to watch because indecision

275
00:07:58,050 --> 00:08:01,500
in a startup earns interest
and it compounds daily.

276
00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:04,409
Like the longer you go without
making those decisions,

277
00:08:04,890 --> 00:08:05,610
that the worse it gets.

278
00:08:05,610 --> 00:08:06,900
And I think that one
of the things that,

279
00:08:06,900 --> 00:08:07,860
that I've always found.

280
00:08:08,674 --> 00:08:11,344
Is for me, like the thing that
can make me more comfortable.

281
00:08:11,344 --> 00:08:12,635
If I'm really looking at
a decision, I'm like, I

282
00:08:12,635 --> 00:08:14,164
really just don't know.

283
00:08:14,525 --> 00:08:16,174
Ask yourself what the
consequences are gonna be.

284
00:08:16,174 --> 00:08:17,674
We've talked about this
a lot on the podcast.

285
00:08:17,674 --> 00:08:19,864
It's like sometimes that monster
you think that you're gonna

286
00:08:19,864 --> 00:08:22,864
face just ends up not being
that big of a deal, and most

287
00:08:22,864 --> 00:08:24,604
decisions aren't irrevocable.

288
00:08:25,020 --> 00:08:25,410
Right.

289
00:08:25,470 --> 00:08:27,180
It's like we're not
asking you to put a

290
00:08:27,180 --> 00:08:28,260
tattoo on your forehead.

291
00:08:28,260 --> 00:08:28,440
Right.

292
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:29,880
And even that is
replicable, right?

293
00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:30,780
You can, you can change that.

294
00:08:31,230 --> 00:08:33,510
So I think that one of the
things that you can become a

295
00:08:33,510 --> 00:08:35,340
little bit more comfortable
in terms of failure is knowing

296
00:08:35,340 --> 00:08:37,470
that you don't have to continue
a long way down this path.

297
00:08:37,470 --> 00:08:39,030
And so for me, it's
breaking that down and

298
00:08:39,030 --> 00:08:41,100
saying, okay, I don't know.

299
00:08:41,505 --> 00:08:44,055
But here's how I can go
find out in the shortest

300
00:08:44,055 --> 00:08:45,735
period of time with the
least amount of resource

301
00:08:45,735 --> 00:08:46,605
and all that stuff, right?

302
00:08:46,605 --> 00:08:50,055
And then it's just iteration
is the, is the tuition

303
00:08:50,055 --> 00:08:51,195
we pay for learning, man.

304
00:08:51,195 --> 00:08:54,615
This is how we get to understand
what is actually gonna work.

305
00:08:54,615 --> 00:08:57,735
We, we pay in small failures
so that we can earn really,

306
00:08:57,735 --> 00:08:58,845
really useful truths.

307
00:08:58,845 --> 00:09:01,065
And if we don't do
that, we're dead, man.

308
00:09:01,065 --> 00:09:01,995
We're just dead in the water.

309
00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:03,319
You said something interesting.

310
00:09:03,319 --> 00:09:05,420
You said, you know, this
concept of slaying the monster.

311
00:09:05,660 --> 00:09:05,900
Yeah.

312
00:09:06,199 --> 00:09:09,319
I think early on, if you haven't
been put in that position where

313
00:09:09,319 --> 00:09:11,630
you've been required to fail
on a regular basis, or more

314
00:09:11,630 --> 00:09:14,990
specifically, like most of the
world does not come up in a

315
00:09:14,990 --> 00:09:16,610
society that rewards failure.

316
00:09:16,670 --> 00:09:16,819
Correct.

317
00:09:16,819 --> 00:09:19,100
There's no version where
the teacher gave you the

318
00:09:19,100 --> 00:09:20,360
test that you got an F on.

319
00:09:20,415 --> 00:09:23,444
Trust me, I tried and
was like, congrats.

320
00:09:23,685 --> 00:09:24,944
You've nailed failure,

321
00:09:25,035 --> 00:09:25,125
right?

322
00:09:25,125 --> 00:09:25,334
Yeah.

323
00:09:25,844 --> 00:09:27,974
You, you now know
how to not algebra.

324
00:09:28,064 --> 00:09:28,485
Awesome.

325
00:09:28,515 --> 00:09:29,115
Yeah, exactly.

326
00:09:29,115 --> 00:09:29,685
Exactly right.

327
00:09:29,685 --> 00:09:32,175
Like there's, there's no
version of that barista making

328
00:09:32,175 --> 00:09:34,574
all the, the coffees wrong
in being like, you know what?

329
00:09:34,724 --> 00:09:36,015
You've learned so much today.

330
00:09:36,015 --> 00:09:37,425
Let's, you know, let's,
let's promote you.

331
00:09:37,425 --> 00:09:37,605
Right?

332
00:09:37,605 --> 00:09:38,025
That's right.

333
00:09:38,084 --> 00:09:38,714
You a manager.

334
00:09:38,714 --> 00:09:39,675
There's no version of our lives.

335
00:09:39,885 --> 00:09:41,895
And even in, and I would,
I take this further

336
00:09:42,074 --> 00:09:43,334
in our relationships.

337
00:09:43,605 --> 00:09:45,465
When people are dating or
trying to find their, their

338
00:09:45,465 --> 00:09:47,505
mate or your parent of
their children, whatever.

339
00:09:47,895 --> 00:09:47,985
Yep.

340
00:09:47,985 --> 00:09:49,454
Now, those are big
decisions, don't get me wrong

341
00:09:49,574 --> 00:09:49,635
a

342
00:09:49,635 --> 00:09:52,635
hundred percent, but
they're so, so fearful of

343
00:09:52,635 --> 00:09:53,835
making the wrong decision.

344
00:09:54,015 --> 00:09:54,194
Yep.

345
00:09:54,765 --> 00:09:55,905
They never make
the right decision.

346
00:09:56,444 --> 00:09:58,064
And again, I think
this permeates all

347
00:09:58,064 --> 00:09:59,085
aspects of our lives.

348
00:09:59,444 --> 00:10:00,824
I say this as a prelude.

349
00:10:01,185 --> 00:10:05,324
I think that as humans, we
are conditioned to not fail to

350
00:10:05,324 --> 00:10:08,805
fear failure in that monster
that comes with failure.

351
00:10:09,165 --> 00:10:12,375
It's fascinating when you
start to conquer that monster.

352
00:10:13,170 --> 00:10:15,570
Right the first time,
you know, you get knocked

353
00:10:15,570 --> 00:10:17,100
down and you get back up.

354
00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:18,660
You're like, wait a
minute, I can get back up.

355
00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:21,690
And it's this really
fascinating mentality.

356
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:23,580
You know, people call
it resilience, eh,

357
00:10:23,580 --> 00:10:24,240
that's part of it.

358
00:10:24,390 --> 00:10:24,690
Right?

359
00:10:24,750 --> 00:10:25,380
Resilience.

360
00:10:25,380 --> 00:10:28,410
You could be really resilient in
an environment where you didn't

361
00:10:28,410 --> 00:10:31,470
necessarily always fail or that
everything was on the line.

362
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:32,580
Not a lot of consequence.

363
00:10:33,090 --> 00:10:35,280
I think about my kids being
resilient and they're not.

364
00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,460
But I think about they would
be resilient and I think like,

365
00:10:38,460 --> 00:10:40,350
well, they're in a consequence
re environment, like no

366
00:10:40,350 --> 00:10:41,850
matter what failure they had.

367
00:10:42,065 --> 00:10:43,565
They'll always be taken care of.

368
00:10:43,625 --> 00:10:43,895
Yeah.

369
00:10:43,895 --> 00:10:43,955
Yeah.

370
00:10:44,325 --> 00:10:44,625
Yep.

371
00:10:44,745 --> 00:10:45,645
There's a safety net there.

372
00:10:46,035 --> 00:10:47,415
So it's, yeah, it's
not real failure.

373
00:10:47,415 --> 00:10:49,275
They haven't learned
real, real failure yet.

374
00:10:49,515 --> 00:10:51,705
But when you have all the
consequence, like you tend

375
00:10:51,705 --> 00:10:54,435
to have in a startup for
the first time, you're

376
00:10:54,435 --> 00:10:57,075
really looking failure,
like you're looking down the

377
00:10:57,075 --> 00:10:58,785
barrel of that gun being.

378
00:10:59,209 --> 00:10:59,900
Holy crap.

379
00:10:59,900 --> 00:11:03,260
Like if I get this wrong, the
consequences is all over me.

380
00:11:03,380 --> 00:11:03,739
Right.

381
00:11:04,189 --> 00:11:05,839
And I think that prevents
a lot of people from

382
00:11:05,839 --> 00:11:08,119
starting from challenging
failure or like from, you

383
00:11:08,119 --> 00:11:10,369
know, like Dede defeating
that beast, so to speak.

384
00:11:10,489 --> 00:11:11,839
The monster that as
you described it.

385
00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:12,079
Yep.

386
00:11:12,349 --> 00:11:13,310
Which I think is really AP prop.

387
00:11:13,489 --> 00:11:13,910
Yeah.

388
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,699
So go back in time a little,
I'm trying to do this right now.

389
00:11:16,910 --> 00:11:18,260
Go back in time a
little bit and, and.

390
00:11:19,155 --> 00:11:20,655
See what you recall.

391
00:11:20,655 --> 00:11:23,715
Like this is a muscle, but I
think there's also, there does

392
00:11:23,715 --> 00:11:26,535
seem to be a little bit of
founder, DNA attached to this.

393
00:11:26,540 --> 00:11:26,580
Mm-hmm.

394
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,235
But I've definitely seen people
turn the corner on this too.

395
00:11:29,235 --> 00:11:31,155
Like even if they weren't
comfortable with it, I wasn't

396
00:11:31,155 --> 00:11:33,615
to the point we were making
before, like I've realized that

397
00:11:33,615 --> 00:11:34,935
this is baked into my feedback.

398
00:11:34,935 --> 00:11:36,105
I'm unintentionally doing it.

399
00:11:36,105 --> 00:11:40,035
It's just such a part of
how I think in startup mode.

400
00:11:40,455 --> 00:11:40,665
Yeah.

401
00:11:40,665 --> 00:11:41,865
That it just comes through.

402
00:11:42,075 --> 00:11:44,235
And so clearly, like
it's a well-developed

403
00:11:44,235 --> 00:11:45,135
muscle at this point.

404
00:11:45,135 --> 00:11:45,915
It's just muscle memory.

405
00:11:45,915 --> 00:11:48,045
I'm just, it just,
it just happens, but.

406
00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:50,310
If you go back far enough
in time, like do you

407
00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:51,570
recall when this was?

408
00:11:51,990 --> 00:11:54,030
When this was still like
something you had to force

409
00:11:54,030 --> 00:11:56,070
yourself into or It felt really
uncomfortable because at this

410
00:11:56,070 --> 00:11:59,100
point I don't even notice that
there's a discomfort around it.

411
00:11:59,340 --> 00:11:59,580
Yeah.

412
00:11:59,580 --> 00:12:00,540
It was Jason Barker.

413
00:12:00,885 --> 00:12:02,835
Remember the Jason Barker
story where he used to beat

414
00:12:02,835 --> 00:12:03,915
me up every single day.

415
00:12:04,215 --> 00:12:05,865
It's really strange
'cause we had a kid,

416
00:12:05,925 --> 00:12:06,855
did we talk about this?

417
00:12:07,335 --> 00:12:07,425
Yeah.

418
00:12:07,425 --> 00:12:09,765
There was like the
tough kid in the school.

419
00:12:09,765 --> 00:12:10,725
I wasn't there yet.

420
00:12:10,725 --> 00:12:12,765
I was still outside of the
school system at that point.

421
00:12:13,065 --> 00:12:15,855
But the tough guy in the
middle school was Jason Barker.

422
00:12:15,915 --> 00:12:16,905
What, what is going on here?

423
00:12:17,115 --> 00:12:18,945
I swear it was, it was
just a pseudonym, right?

424
00:12:19,005 --> 00:12:19,395
And so

425
00:12:19,425 --> 00:12:20,145
badass name.

426
00:12:21,565 --> 00:12:25,795
So Jason Parker used to
beat me up every single day.

427
00:12:25,795 --> 00:12:27,265
I was probably first
or second grade, right?

428
00:12:27,270 --> 00:12:27,280
Yeah.

429
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:28,315
I was like very young.

430
00:12:28,465 --> 00:12:31,105
And every single day I would
come home crying mind, like,

431
00:12:31,105 --> 00:12:33,025
this is like back in the
eighties where like parenting

432
00:12:33,025 --> 00:12:34,135
worked a lot differently.

433
00:12:34,225 --> 00:12:34,525
Yeah.

434
00:12:34,585 --> 00:12:37,315
And, and I would come home
crying and my dad would

435
00:12:37,315 --> 00:12:39,655
be like, you know what,
you're a wimp, right?

436
00:12:39,655 --> 00:12:41,425
Like, come back to me
like when you won a fight.

437
00:12:41,425 --> 00:12:42,715
Like that, kind of
like tough love.

438
00:12:42,715 --> 00:12:43,015
Right?

439
00:12:43,915 --> 00:12:46,045
And so obviously I was, there's
no helicopter parenting that

440
00:12:46,045 --> 00:12:46,975
hadn't been invented yet.

441
00:12:47,395 --> 00:12:49,640
So every day, like it was his
job, Jason Barker would just.

442
00:12:50,089 --> 00:12:50,810
Beat my ass.

443
00:12:50,959 --> 00:12:51,319
Right.

444
00:12:51,410 --> 00:12:54,020
Every frigging day
for a very long time.

445
00:12:54,199 --> 00:12:56,780
I'm, I'm guessing it was at
least a year, and every day

446
00:12:56,780 --> 00:12:58,670
I would go home and every
day I'd be like, well, I

447
00:12:58,670 --> 00:13:02,300
can't beat him, so I'm just
gonna take the L. Right.

448
00:13:02,300 --> 00:13:02,310
Yeah.

449
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:03,020
Every single time.

450
00:13:04,079 --> 00:13:07,380
One day, not any specific day
or for any specific reason.

451
00:13:07,620 --> 00:13:09,990
I remember I was getting
my daily ass beating, like

452
00:13:10,140 --> 00:13:12,810
adrenaline pumped through my
little body for the first time.

453
00:13:12,990 --> 00:13:15,449
And I remember flipping
Jason over and just

454
00:13:15,449 --> 00:13:16,170
getting on top of him.

455
00:13:16,170 --> 00:13:17,430
Just wailing him, right?

456
00:13:17,435 --> 00:13:17,574
Yeah.

457
00:13:17,875 --> 00:13:19,094
And I was like, oh.

458
00:13:19,970 --> 00:13:20,990
Lemme try that again.

459
00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:21,410
Right?

460
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,210
And, and I say that
because I remember like

461
00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:24,380
the level of adversity.

462
00:13:24,380 --> 00:13:26,030
I mean, when you're that
young, it's like your

463
00:13:26,030 --> 00:13:27,200
whole world is right.

464
00:13:27,290 --> 00:13:28,670
Your whole world
is being pummeled.

465
00:13:29,060 --> 00:13:31,910
And I remember the
visceral reaction Yeah.

466
00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:33,920
Of finally getting
on top of my failure.

467
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:35,150
I mean, quite
literally in this case.

468
00:13:36,075 --> 00:13:38,150
And, and beating that monster.

469
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,150
And I remember I got
plain as day man.

470
00:13:41,690 --> 00:13:43,790
I remember that feeling.

471
00:13:44,145 --> 00:13:46,215
Like, if I can do this

472
00:13:46,275 --> 00:13:46,515
Yeah.

473
00:13:46,755 --> 00:13:47,835
Then what else can I do?

474
00:13:47,865 --> 00:13:48,195
Yeah.

475
00:13:48,195 --> 00:13:48,205
Yeah.

476
00:13:48,315 --> 00:13:48,465
Right.

477
00:13:48,465 --> 00:13:50,055
And at the time it meant
up beating up other

478
00:13:50,055 --> 00:13:50,805
kids in the playground.

479
00:13:51,165 --> 00:13:54,255
But, but I remember it,
it's still the sense of,

480
00:13:54,435 --> 00:13:57,525
it was the first time
that I felt like, man.

481
00:13:57,885 --> 00:14:00,525
Like all that failure, which
was really me learning to defend

482
00:14:00,525 --> 00:14:02,025
myself turned into a strength.

483
00:14:02,055 --> 00:14:02,595
And it did.

484
00:14:02,595 --> 00:14:03,015
It did.

485
00:14:03,015 --> 00:14:04,545
And I've never
lost a fight again.

486
00:14:04,755 --> 00:14:05,235
That's good.

487
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,305
I, I don't imagine that
happens very much anymore.

488
00:14:07,365 --> 00:14:07,665
I mean,

489
00:14:08,115 --> 00:14:08,565
thank God.

490
00:14:08,565 --> 00:14:08,745
No.

491
00:14:08,745 --> 00:14:09,915
'cause I, you talked to Jason.

492
00:14:09,915 --> 00:14:13,695
I did not get very big that
not offended Well, for me, but,

493
00:14:13,695 --> 00:14:15,705
but I guess what I'm saying
is when I think about that,

494
00:14:15,705 --> 00:14:17,625
again, you know, when, when
you're asking the question,

495
00:14:17,925 --> 00:14:20,595
the first thing that jumps
in my mind, that was exactly,

496
00:14:20,655 --> 00:14:23,355
you know, what that personal
kinda like failure felt like.

497
00:14:23,355 --> 00:14:23,475
Yeah.

498
00:14:23,835 --> 00:14:25,455
And again, overcoming
that failure.

499
00:14:26,325 --> 00:14:28,740
Now kind of a weird and a
very eighties way to do it.

500
00:14:29,670 --> 00:14:30,180
Still,

501
00:14:30,420 --> 00:14:30,540
yeah,

502
00:14:30,569 --> 00:14:33,630
it taught me like it was
getting beat all those times

503
00:14:33,630 --> 00:14:37,500
that taught me how to win, and
once I did and I had conquered

504
00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:41,069
that failure, it was like
a superpower in something

505
00:14:41,069 --> 00:14:43,680
that I would reach back
into, not the fighting part.

506
00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:45,540
Time and time.

507
00:14:45,795 --> 00:14:46,245
In time.

508
00:14:46,245 --> 00:14:48,615
Again, there's a confidence
that comes with beating failure.

509
00:14:48,735 --> 00:14:50,830
There is, and I think it's
very interesting because in,

510
00:14:50,835 --> 00:14:53,205
in that case, you were sort of
forced into that failure, right?

511
00:14:53,205 --> 00:14:55,125
You didn't choose, you
weren't like, I think I'm

512
00:14:55,125 --> 00:14:57,285
gonna go try this fight
every day of the week.

513
00:14:57,525 --> 00:15:00,255
That fight came to you was not,
but here's what's cool about it.

514
00:15:00,255 --> 00:15:00,795
Here's what's interesting.

515
00:15:00,795 --> 00:15:02,475
I've seen this with a lot of
founders, myself included.

516
00:15:03,250 --> 00:15:05,709
At some point you turn
the corner on that and all

517
00:15:05,709 --> 00:15:07,150
of a sudden you go like,
you can be proactive.

518
00:15:07,150 --> 00:15:09,370
You can choose to
go and do something.

519
00:15:09,579 --> 00:15:09,760
Yep.

520
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,469
That you will probably fail at.

521
00:15:11,469 --> 00:15:11,560
Right.

522
00:15:11,890 --> 00:15:14,110
But without that fear,
without the hesitation.

523
00:15:14,110 --> 00:15:14,260
Right.

524
00:15:14,260 --> 00:15:16,209
That's, I think that's the
really amazing thing that

525
00:15:16,209 --> 00:15:18,640
starts to happen, and I've heard
you say this before, but it's

526
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:19,750
that failure breeds success.

527
00:15:20,535 --> 00:15:20,985
It does.

528
00:15:20,985 --> 00:15:22,155
And let me build on that.

529
00:15:22,155 --> 00:15:24,495
So as I'm going through
those, you know, formative

530
00:15:24,495 --> 00:15:25,395
parts of childhood,

531
00:15:25,605 --> 00:15:25,875
yeah.

532
00:15:25,965 --> 00:15:28,725
I had a tremendous amount
of failures and hardships.

533
00:15:28,935 --> 00:15:29,175
Sure.

534
00:15:29,295 --> 00:15:32,745
But because I was able to kind
of fight through and overcome

535
00:15:32,745 --> 00:15:35,595
them, and a lot of times when
people kinda like talk through

536
00:15:35,595 --> 00:15:39,015
that journey, when you hear
like overcome, you think of like

537
00:15:39,015 --> 00:15:40,545
rocky at the top of the stairs.

538
00:15:40,545 --> 00:15:40,785
Right.

539
00:15:41,175 --> 00:15:42,135
Do an eye of the tiger.

540
00:15:42,740 --> 00:15:45,680
Overcome is sometimes
far less glorious.

541
00:15:45,980 --> 00:15:46,190
Yeah.

542
00:15:46,190 --> 00:15:46,280
Most

543
00:15:46,670 --> 00:15:49,250
overcome is sometimes
fro across the beach.

544
00:15:49,310 --> 00:15:49,580
Right.

545
00:15:49,580 --> 00:15:51,020
You know, to get the
other side right.

546
00:15:51,020 --> 00:15:53,870
It's not as glorious as
it sounds, but when you've

547
00:15:53,870 --> 00:15:56,240
put yourself in a position
where you are in a position.

548
00:15:56,685 --> 00:15:59,895
Where you've gotten through
that, you actually do

549
00:15:59,895 --> 00:16:01,155
know what the downside is.

550
00:16:01,275 --> 00:16:01,365
Yeah.

551
00:16:01,365 --> 00:16:04,365
You actually do know what
that monster actually is

552
00:16:04,635 --> 00:16:06,705
versus what you put it
together in your mind.

553
00:16:07,305 --> 00:16:09,405
And I think when that's
the case, you're like, man,

554
00:16:09,675 --> 00:16:10,905
I've started with nothing.

555
00:16:10,935 --> 00:16:12,345
I've started with
less than nothing.

556
00:16:12,615 --> 00:16:12,825
Yeah.

557
00:16:12,825 --> 00:16:15,315
So I know exactly what it
means to go back to that.

558
00:16:15,315 --> 00:16:16,215
And I don't want to,

559
00:16:16,275 --> 00:16:16,485
don't

560
00:16:16,485 --> 00:16:16,785
want to.

561
00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:16,970
I can't.

562
00:16:16,970 --> 00:16:17,010
Yep.

563
00:16:17,485 --> 00:16:18,415
How did it work for you?

564
00:16:18,655 --> 00:16:20,635
When, when, when you look back,
uh, please don't tell me that

565
00:16:20,635 --> 00:16:21,954
Jason Barker also beat you up.

566
00:16:22,194 --> 00:16:22,555
No.

567
00:16:22,735 --> 00:16:25,555
When you look back, when you
think about, uh, where you were

568
00:16:25,555 --> 00:16:28,885
in life and, and like where the
first time you had a failure

569
00:16:28,885 --> 00:16:31,584
meaningful enough that at the
time you didn't think you'd

570
00:16:31,584 --> 00:16:34,255
come back, but you did, and
all of a sudden it clicked,

571
00:16:34,525 --> 00:16:35,550
you know, something
that's really.

572
00:16:35,940 --> 00:16:38,910
Funny about everything
we talk about here is

573
00:16:38,910 --> 00:16:40,650
that none of it is new.

574
00:16:40,890 --> 00:16:43,320
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done

575
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,300
a thousand times before you,

576
00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:47,310
which means the
answer already exists.

577
00:16:47,310 --> 00:16:49,200
You may just not know
it, but that's okay.

578
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,390
That's kind of what
we're here to do.

579
00:16:51,390 --> 00:16:54,030
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually

580
00:16:54,030 --> 00:16:58,170
solve these problems all
dayLong@groups.startups.com.

581
00:16:58,230 --> 00:17:01,530
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing

582
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:02,550
about what to do.

583
00:17:02,650 --> 00:17:06,040
Let us just give you the answers
to the test and be done with it.

584
00:17:06,490 --> 00:17:09,819
It's funny, I'm gonna go back
to probably very similar age.

585
00:17:09,819 --> 00:17:12,250
I would've been 10, and
this was a, this was a

586
00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:13,569
very personal failure.

587
00:17:13,930 --> 00:17:16,359
I failed to do some of the
things I was supposed to.

588
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:17,839
I failed, was trying to.

589
00:17:18,579 --> 00:17:21,220
Expand my little growing
cattle business at the time.

590
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:21,609
Right.

591
00:17:21,670 --> 00:17:22,270
And I loved your

592
00:17:22,270 --> 00:17:23,230
farm stories, by the way.

593
00:17:23,410 --> 00:17:24,160
They're great stories.

594
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,440
They're super, like for me,
I mean, of course it's super

595
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,359
visceral, but like, I think
it's something that just like,

596
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:29,740
they just feel easy to me.

597
00:17:29,740 --> 00:17:30,790
They just feel
easy to understand.

598
00:17:30,790 --> 00:17:30,910
Right.

599
00:17:30,910 --> 00:17:33,550
There's just something so
basic about what happens there.

600
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,250
And this is one of those like
life and death stories, right?

601
00:17:36,250 --> 00:17:39,970
So I had tried to expand and
I, I wanted to grow the, the

602
00:17:39,970 --> 00:17:42,940
operation a bit bigger because
I started making fairly.

603
00:17:43,195 --> 00:17:44,305
Good money at that point, right?

604
00:17:44,305 --> 00:17:44,365
Yeah.

605
00:17:44,365 --> 00:17:45,205
At 11 or 12.

606
00:17:45,205 --> 00:17:47,575
And like the, the cash had
gotten real to the point

607
00:17:47,575 --> 00:17:50,485
where I had to file a C corp
the, the year after because

608
00:17:50,485 --> 00:17:51,505
I needed a tax shelter.

609
00:17:51,595 --> 00:17:51,655
Wow.

610
00:17:51,685 --> 00:17:53,065
So, which is great, right?

611
00:17:53,065 --> 00:17:53,545
That's fun.

612
00:17:53,665 --> 00:17:56,215
But what happens is I start to
try to expand this thing, right?

613
00:17:56,215 --> 00:17:57,595
And it came with all kinds
of challenges, right?

614
00:17:57,595 --> 00:17:59,545
I got myself cash strapped
in the beginning 'cause I,

615
00:17:59,545 --> 00:18:02,335
I overbought and then there
was a, a longer winter.

616
00:18:02,335 --> 00:18:03,175
All these things happen, right?

617
00:18:03,175 --> 00:18:03,745
So everything's going.

618
00:18:03,745 --> 00:18:03,955
I love that

619
00:18:03,955 --> 00:18:05,635
you're leveraged
on inventory at 11.

620
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:06,860
Right, like

621
00:18:07,730 --> 00:18:08,810
classic founder story.

622
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:10,760
I did, I leveraged myself,
and then we had a longer

623
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:12,920
winter than usual, so I
had to feed longer than

624
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:14,210
expected and it, it got ugly.

625
00:18:14,210 --> 00:18:17,990
I was literally shoveling
driveways and plowing people's

626
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:23,060
driveways to make cash to
pay for feed for cows, right?

627
00:18:23,060 --> 00:18:25,220
That's where I was at,
so I had to have a side

628
00:18:25,220 --> 00:18:26,270
hustle for my side hustle.

629
00:18:26,660 --> 00:18:30,380
What ends up happening
is that because I, I was.

630
00:18:30,580 --> 00:18:32,110
Over my toes and
all these things.

631
00:18:32,110 --> 00:18:33,310
I wasn't paying
as much attention.

632
00:18:33,310 --> 00:18:35,380
I probably wasn't caring for
things as much as I should.

633
00:18:35,770 --> 00:18:38,680
One of them got sick and then
spread some sickness, the others

634
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:40,240
and two of them ended up dying.

635
00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:41,170
Right?

636
00:18:41,170 --> 00:18:44,320
And that was one of those
moments where like, I failed

637
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,570
and I failed hard, and it
felt really bad, right?

638
00:18:46,570 --> 00:18:47,170
These things weren't.

639
00:18:47,215 --> 00:18:49,855
Pets, but they all
still had names.

640
00:18:49,855 --> 00:18:50,185
At that point.

641
00:18:50,185 --> 00:18:50,995
You're 12, right?

642
00:18:50,995 --> 00:18:52,254
Like you don't, you don't
know how to completely

643
00:18:52,254 --> 00:18:53,185
disassociate from that.

644
00:18:53,245 --> 00:18:55,915
And so that was one of those
things where then I was like,

645
00:18:56,004 --> 00:18:58,975
I really questioned whether I
ever wanted to do that again.

646
00:18:59,064 --> 00:18:59,304
Right?

647
00:18:59,304 --> 00:19:00,865
Because I'd put myself
through all this hardship.

648
00:19:00,865 --> 00:19:02,544
Everything just
felt like it sucked.

649
00:19:02,875 --> 00:19:03,715
Then, you know?

650
00:19:03,785 --> 00:19:05,705
The spring eventually came
and things got a little bit

651
00:19:05,705 --> 00:19:07,805
easier and I, I made peace
with the mistake I had made

652
00:19:07,805 --> 00:19:09,815
and I told myself I would never
compromise like that again.

653
00:19:09,815 --> 00:19:11,465
I would make sure that I
planned all that stuff, but

654
00:19:11,705 --> 00:19:12,725
it was one of those learnings.

655
00:19:12,725 --> 00:19:12,935
Right.

656
00:19:12,935 --> 00:19:15,365
I understood now about
like cashflow management.

657
00:19:15,365 --> 00:19:17,075
I understand now about
inventory management.

658
00:19:17,075 --> 00:19:17,765
I understand now about Yeah.

659
00:19:17,765 --> 00:19:17,915
Right.

660
00:19:18,215 --> 00:19:21,635
Planning for contingencies
and business stuff, right?

661
00:19:21,635 --> 00:19:21,695
Yeah.

662
00:19:21,725 --> 00:19:24,935
So lots of little, little
lessons came there from

663
00:19:24,935 --> 00:19:29,285
that failure and it sucked,
but like I never would've.

664
00:19:29,790 --> 00:19:31,470
Come to that same
conclusion just by sitting

665
00:19:31,470 --> 00:19:33,210
around and like planning.

666
00:19:33,330 --> 00:19:33,600
Right.

667
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,840
You, you can't ab test a
thought experiment, right?

668
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:37,980
It doesn't work.

669
00:19:38,340 --> 00:19:38,700
Right.

670
00:19:38,700 --> 00:19:41,610
The, the deltas that we
create and start a plan don't

671
00:19:41,610 --> 00:19:42,629
come from brainstorms, man.

672
00:19:42,629 --> 00:19:45,240
They, they come from bruises
in most cases in your case,

673
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:46,320
quite, quite literally.

674
00:19:46,620 --> 00:19:48,930
Uh, in my case, it was an
emotional bruise in your case.

675
00:19:48,930 --> 00:19:50,940
Uh, it was one
straight in the eye.

676
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:51,690
But yeah.

677
00:19:51,690 --> 00:19:53,430
And it's funny 'cause they
so many of these lessons

678
00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:55,500
and I think when we talk to
lots and lots of founders,

679
00:19:55,889 --> 00:19:57,000
a lot of these lessons.

680
00:19:57,290 --> 00:19:59,720
Came at early ages, and a lot
of them weren't necessarily,

681
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,760
mine happened to actually
be related to a business I

682
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,860
was running at a very young
age, but a lot of times they

683
00:20:03,860 --> 00:20:06,950
were just, it was just some
other version of getting

684
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:10,460
comfortable with some version
of ass whooping and failure

685
00:20:10,879 --> 00:20:14,000
and overcoming it and then
saying, Hmm, if I can do that.

686
00:20:14,715 --> 00:20:16,455
I can probably just do
whatever else I want to.

687
00:20:16,455 --> 00:20:17,325
Let me just keep trying.

688
00:20:17,595 --> 00:20:18,045
I agree.

689
00:20:18,135 --> 00:20:19,784
I also, Ryan, I don't
wanna overlook the fact

690
00:20:19,784 --> 00:20:20,985
that you have to do this.

691
00:20:21,165 --> 00:20:21,345
Yes.

692
00:20:21,345 --> 00:20:23,655
Like it, this isn't like
a luxury, like you can't

693
00:20:23,655 --> 00:20:25,995
run a startup and just
always get it right.

694
00:20:25,995 --> 00:20:27,675
You can't even run a startup
and get it half right.

695
00:20:28,034 --> 00:20:28,185
Correct.

696
00:20:28,185 --> 00:20:30,945
And I love when people look
at successes of companies, you

697
00:20:30,945 --> 00:20:33,615
know, successful founders, and
they're like, oh, they must have

698
00:20:33,615 --> 00:20:34,754
made all the right decisions.

699
00:20:35,024 --> 00:20:37,455
Show me any successful
founder and I will show you

700
00:20:37,455 --> 00:20:38,865
a trail of tears a mile wide.

701
00:20:39,445 --> 00:20:41,875
Right of all of the things
that that went wrong in

702
00:20:41,875 --> 00:20:42,955
order for them to get there.

703
00:20:43,195 --> 00:20:47,185
And you get this later on
in a cute documentary or

704
00:20:47,185 --> 00:20:49,435
how I built this podcast
or something like that.

705
00:20:49,735 --> 00:20:52,135
And you get the real story
when you actually meet that

706
00:20:52,135 --> 00:20:53,305
founder over a couple drinks

707
00:20:53,335 --> 00:20:53,365
Uhhuh

708
00:20:53,995 --> 00:20:56,605
and you get the unfiltered,
you know, not safe for work,

709
00:20:56,605 --> 00:20:57,955
not safe for television story.

710
00:20:57,985 --> 00:20:58,375
Yeah.

711
00:20:58,375 --> 00:21:01,885
And it is way more graphic
and it is way more awful and

712
00:21:01,885 --> 00:21:03,295
you see it very personally.

713
00:21:03,835 --> 00:21:06,264
I think that for the founders
that are out there that, that

714
00:21:06,264 --> 00:21:08,575
are in our category of kind of
doing this for the first time.

715
00:21:08,750 --> 00:21:10,610
When they hear something
like embrace failure,

716
00:21:10,850 --> 00:21:12,410
it sounds like a trope.

717
00:21:12,425 --> 00:21:12,715
Yeah.

718
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:12,890
Yeah,

719
00:21:12,890 --> 00:21:13,130
right.

720
00:21:13,370 --> 00:21:13,430
It

721
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:13,640
does.

722
00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:13,910
Yeah.

723
00:21:13,910 --> 00:21:14,750
But I don't wanna do that.

724
00:21:14,755 --> 00:21:17,450
Uh uh Like I just wanna do
all the successful stuff.

725
00:21:17,510 --> 00:21:17,720
Right.

726
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,040
And like you don't
have a choice.

727
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:19,100
Yeah.

728
00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:21,590
Like the reason we're saying
embrace isn't 'cause we love

729
00:21:21,590 --> 00:21:22,760
getting punched in the face.

730
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:25,220
It's because getting punched
in the face is the job.

731
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:25,520
Yeah.

732
00:21:25,550 --> 00:21:25,790
Right.

733
00:21:25,790 --> 00:21:27,860
That's literally what
we do for a living.

734
00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:30,080
And if you can't learn to
get good at it, I think your

735
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,730
boxing analogy was phenomenal.

736
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:32,480
If you can't.

737
00:21:32,970 --> 00:21:35,130
Like take the hits, you
won't win any fights.

738
00:21:35,220 --> 00:21:35,970
It's that simple.

739
00:21:36,060 --> 00:21:36,270
That's right.

740
00:21:36,630 --> 00:21:39,360
Now if, if we get out of, you
know, metaphors and analogies

741
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:41,220
and things like that, if
we get into really specific

742
00:21:41,220 --> 00:21:44,340
things, if you're gonna do
marketing as an example, yeah.

743
00:21:44,580 --> 00:21:46,530
There are 20 different
things that you need to do.

744
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:46,830
Yeah.

745
00:21:46,830 --> 00:21:47,910
Only one of them is correct.

746
00:21:48,060 --> 00:21:50,370
There's no goddamn way
You are gonna know which

747
00:21:50,370 --> 00:21:51,360
one of those is correct.

748
00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:53,850
When I used to run an ad
agency, one of the things I

749
00:21:53,850 --> 00:21:57,120
used to say to my clients is,
you pay me to be less wrong.

750
00:21:57,885 --> 00:21:58,245
Right.

751
00:21:58,425 --> 00:21:59,865
I never said, you
pay me to be right.

752
00:21:59,955 --> 00:22:00,165
Right.

753
00:22:00,170 --> 00:22:01,395
Like, you know, if
you gimme money, we're

754
00:22:01,395 --> 00:22:02,055
always gonna be right.

755
00:22:02,385 --> 00:22:04,725
You pay me because I know
how to be less wrong than

756
00:22:04,725 --> 00:22:06,225
you would be on your own.

757
00:22:06,345 --> 00:22:07,815
But both of us are
gonna be wrong.

758
00:22:07,935 --> 00:22:08,085
Yeah.

759
00:22:08,085 --> 00:22:09,735
You'll just pay to be,
to be hopefully less

760
00:22:09,735 --> 00:22:09,825
wrong.

761
00:22:09,825 --> 00:22:12,165
I'm gonna be wrong for less
time than you would've been.

762
00:22:13,485 --> 00:22:14,115
Exactly.

763
00:22:14,565 --> 00:22:17,745
I mean, every breakout we've
ever had started as some version

764
00:22:17,745 --> 00:22:21,405
of like an embarrassing version
one that we shipped anyways.

765
00:22:21,885 --> 00:22:22,095
Right?

766
00:22:22,095 --> 00:22:22,305
Yep.

767
00:22:22,635 --> 00:22:23,445
That's the key.

768
00:22:23,565 --> 00:22:24,945
We shipped it anyways.

769
00:22:25,650 --> 00:22:27,450
You just going back to the
whole, you know, trying to

770
00:22:27,450 --> 00:22:31,650
steer the, the parked car
until we're in motion, nothing

771
00:22:31,650 --> 00:22:32,879
is actually gonna happen.

772
00:22:33,210 --> 00:22:33,570
Right.

773
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:39,210
I have bet To ship a page that
converts it 0.3% rightly, and

774
00:22:39,210 --> 00:22:41,310
then, then two weeks later it
needs to be converting at three.

775
00:22:41,639 --> 00:22:41,970
Right.

776
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:43,860
I'm never gonna figure that out.

777
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:47,070
Just by sitting there and
extrapolating or simulating

778
00:22:47,070 --> 00:22:48,150
or guessing, right.

779
00:22:48,150 --> 00:22:50,550
You just have to put
rubber to road before

780
00:22:50,550 --> 00:22:51,360
anything's gonna happen.

781
00:22:51,450 --> 00:22:53,580
It's the same response I give
people when they're talking

782
00:22:53,580 --> 00:22:54,690
about bringing on a co-founder.

783
00:22:54,810 --> 00:22:55,020
You know?

784
00:22:55,020 --> 00:22:55,140
Yeah.

785
00:22:55,170 --> 00:22:57,570
The, the most tired one now
is I'm trying to bring on the

786
00:22:57,570 --> 00:23:00,330
technical co-founder, and I'm
gonna say, I'm, I'm worried

787
00:23:00,330 --> 00:23:01,380
about hiring the wrong person.

788
00:23:01,590 --> 00:23:04,110
And I was like, you probably
are hiring the wrong person.

789
00:23:04,115 --> 00:23:04,275
Yeah.

790
00:23:04,620 --> 00:23:06,750
And that is part of the process,
which is why I always talk about

791
00:23:06,750 --> 00:23:10,260
vesting and cliffs and how to
unwind this thing in the divorce

792
00:23:10,260 --> 00:23:11,370
papers before you get married.

793
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:11,880
Yep.

794
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:12,030
Because.

795
00:23:12,945 --> 00:23:14,804
Like, there's no way you
could possibly know this

796
00:23:14,804 --> 00:23:15,885
is the right co-founder.

797
00:23:16,245 --> 00:23:18,735
You can run all the checks
and be totally wrong.

798
00:23:18,735 --> 00:23:22,245
In the same way, if
investors really knew how

799
00:23:22,245 --> 00:23:24,495
to make good investments,
why do they make bad ones?

800
00:23:24,764 --> 00:23:24,975
Yeah.

801
00:23:25,004 --> 00:23:27,074
If they're so good at making
good investments, why do

802
00:23:27,074 --> 00:23:28,034
they ever make a bad one?

803
00:23:28,034 --> 00:23:28,215
Yep.

804
00:23:28,425 --> 00:23:28,695
Right.

805
00:23:28,995 --> 00:23:31,665
And why is it the, the
portfolio strategy suggests

806
00:23:31,814 --> 00:23:34,004
that you need to make 20
investments to maybe have two

807
00:23:34,125 --> 00:23:34,155
uhhuh,

808
00:23:34,395 --> 00:23:36,074
why don't you just make
20 good investments if

809
00:23:36,074 --> 00:23:36,564
you're so good at this?

810
00:23:36,564 --> 00:23:36,600
Right.

811
00:23:37,199 --> 00:23:38,370
It's not the way this works,

812
00:23:38,399 --> 00:23:39,060
not how it works,

813
00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:40,740
not the way this works.

814
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,310
And because of that, we're not
in the business where we get

815
00:23:44,310 --> 00:23:46,050
to say, oh, I'll just, I'll
just hire the right people.

816
00:23:46,050 --> 00:23:47,250
I'll find the right
co-founder, I'll get the

817
00:23:47,250 --> 00:23:48,360
right investors, et cetera.

818
00:23:48,659 --> 00:23:50,370
So I think that brings
us to the next thing.

819
00:23:50,774 --> 00:23:52,095
Which is okay, we get it.

820
00:23:52,095 --> 00:23:54,045
You've pounded us over the
head that like you can't

821
00:23:54,045 --> 00:23:55,125
make the right decisions.

822
00:23:55,365 --> 00:23:56,355
So then what?

823
00:23:56,355 --> 00:23:58,274
So I just go around making
a bunch of bad decisions.

824
00:23:58,274 --> 00:23:59,805
Doesn't that like
totally lead to failure?

825
00:24:00,315 --> 00:24:04,335
It does sort of, and what I
would say is building this

826
00:24:04,335 --> 00:24:07,965
skill of failure is maybe one
of the greatest skills I know

827
00:24:07,965 --> 00:24:09,675
personally that I've ever built.

828
00:24:10,215 --> 00:24:11,595
And I said that, you
know, at the top of the,

829
00:24:11,595 --> 00:24:13,455
the show is like, I'm
really good at failing.

830
00:24:13,784 --> 00:24:16,365
And what I really mean by
that is I'm really good at

831
00:24:16,365 --> 00:24:17,595
recovering from failure.

832
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:17,659
Yeah.

833
00:24:17,659 --> 00:24:17,780
Yeah.

834
00:24:18,605 --> 00:24:18,785
Yep.

835
00:24:18,875 --> 00:24:23,855
Very few people have both the
ability and more specifically

836
00:24:23,855 --> 00:24:27,155
the confidence to go into
something saying, yeah, I'm

837
00:24:27,155 --> 00:24:28,115
gonna take a bunch of hits.

838
00:24:28,325 --> 00:24:28,805
Doesn't matter.

839
00:24:29,225 --> 00:24:30,425
It does not matter.

840
00:24:30,485 --> 00:24:32,525
I gotta say, and, and I
referenced this, you know,

841
00:24:32,525 --> 00:24:34,925
because, uh, we write, we write
like a newsletter paper about

842
00:24:34,925 --> 00:24:37,535
this before, you know, we do
these episodes and I said, it's

843
00:24:37,535 --> 00:24:41,075
the, uh, the closest thing to a,
uh, a potion of vulnerability.

844
00:24:41,445 --> 00:24:43,215
Which brings me back to my
Dungeons and Dragons years.

845
00:24:43,335 --> 00:24:43,395
Uhhuh

846
00:24:43,755 --> 00:24:47,925
and being able to be good at
failure means not that I have

847
00:24:47,925 --> 00:24:52,185
like this displaced confidence
that's is like, I just somehow

848
00:24:52,185 --> 00:24:55,275
for, for no reason believe that
I like will always be right.

849
00:24:55,335 --> 00:24:55,695
Right.

850
00:24:55,965 --> 00:24:57,555
That I already know
I'm gonna be wrong.

851
00:24:57,915 --> 00:24:58,785
That's the big difference.

852
00:24:58,995 --> 00:24:59,145
Yep.

853
00:24:59,175 --> 00:25:00,075
I already know I'm
gonna be wrong.

854
00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:04,620
So I focus on the fact that when
I am, which is likely going to

855
00:25:04,620 --> 00:25:06,090
happen, here's how I'll recover.

856
00:25:06,300 --> 00:25:06,510
Yeah.

857
00:25:06,780 --> 00:25:08,670
And I think that's the
mastery of the skill.

858
00:25:08,670 --> 00:25:09,720
That's how it's tooled.

859
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,889
And I think over time, you know,
uh, it becomes a reflex, right?

860
00:25:13,889 --> 00:25:16,710
Recovery becomes a reflex
because again, it's anticipated,

861
00:25:16,710 --> 00:25:19,680
it's expected, and then,
you know, we just get used

862
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:20,760
to that bounce back, right?

863
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:20,850
Yep.

864
00:25:20,850 --> 00:25:22,710
We, we know we're
probably gonna be wrong.

865
00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:23,585
We wanna find out.

866
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,580
How we were wrong, why we
were wrong, which direction

867
00:25:26,580 --> 00:25:28,860
we were wrong in, and
then we adjust, right?

868
00:25:28,860 --> 00:25:30,660
Like I think back to,
just like to, to go

869
00:25:30,690 --> 00:25:31,770
back to childhood again.

870
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,350
One of the, the, the comments
that I would get over and

871
00:25:34,350 --> 00:25:36,510
over again, one of the
reasons I was a desirable

872
00:25:36,510 --> 00:25:39,990
player on, on a soccer team
wasn't because I was faster

873
00:25:39,990 --> 00:25:41,010
than most of the other guys.

874
00:25:41,010 --> 00:25:43,530
It wasn't because I was,
uh, more skilled than the

875
00:25:43,530 --> 00:25:46,440
guys I recovered faster
than my competition.

876
00:25:47,505 --> 00:25:47,775
Yeah.

877
00:25:47,985 --> 00:25:49,965
One of the comments that we get
all the time is like, my output

878
00:25:49,965 --> 00:25:54,345
was nearly the same regardless
of how well I was playing or

879
00:25:54,345 --> 00:25:56,865
poorly, like didn't matter
if I was having a bad day,

880
00:25:57,315 --> 00:25:59,475
didn't mean I would continue
to have a bad day, right?

881
00:25:59,475 --> 00:26:00,945
Coaches would constantly
comment on this like,

882
00:26:00,945 --> 00:26:02,565
you know, you can make a
mistake and you get right.

883
00:26:02,565 --> 00:26:03,595
Your head gets right
back in the game.

884
00:26:04,179 --> 00:26:06,399
You can burn yourself out in
the first half, but you'll get

885
00:26:06,399 --> 00:26:07,240
back in in the second half.

886
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:07,870
You'll keep coming back in.

887
00:26:07,870 --> 00:26:10,090
It's because maybe I was
just too dumb not to.

888
00:26:10,149 --> 00:26:10,659
I don't know.

889
00:26:11,139 --> 00:26:12,820
There's a point at which we
just go like, and I heard

890
00:26:12,820 --> 00:26:13,419
you say it a minute ago.

891
00:26:13,540 --> 00:26:16,750
This doesn't just mean I'm have
misplaced confidence, right?

892
00:26:16,750 --> 00:26:18,669
But we decide where to
apply our effort and then we

893
00:26:18,669 --> 00:26:19,750
recover as quickly as we can.

894
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:21,730
And we get back in, we see
like, okay, that wasn't working.

895
00:26:21,730 --> 00:26:23,169
Let me, let me, let
me try this again.

896
00:26:23,590 --> 00:26:27,370
And I think that's again, to, I
think it has to become a muscle,

897
00:26:27,370 --> 00:26:31,570
it has to become a reflex
really, that we just recover.

898
00:26:31,935 --> 00:26:33,375
Resilience is one
of those things.

899
00:26:33,375 --> 00:26:34,185
I've, I've heard that before.

900
00:26:34,185 --> 00:26:35,835
You know, I'll take
resilience over brilliance

901
00:26:36,375 --> 00:26:38,295
and, and particularly like
when the clock runs long.

902
00:26:38,295 --> 00:26:39,495
I think that does matter.

903
00:26:39,615 --> 00:26:43,575
Uh, but I, I think that to your
point, that's what starts to

904
00:26:43,575 --> 00:26:46,155
decide the difference between
a, a founder who's really going

905
00:26:46,155 --> 00:26:49,275
to lament and failure, and
one that's just gonna be like,

906
00:26:49,785 --> 00:26:50,685
this is part of the process.

907
00:26:51,195 --> 00:26:54,015
Think about from this, uh,
perspective, think of how

908
00:26:54,015 --> 00:26:56,840
dangerous a competitor is that
isn't worried about failing.

909
00:26:57,645 --> 00:26:57,975
Yeah.

910
00:26:58,155 --> 00:26:59,235
That's terrifying.

911
00:26:59,385 --> 00:26:59,445
Yeah.

912
00:26:59,504 --> 00:27:01,274
A competitor with lots to lose.

913
00:27:01,395 --> 00:27:03,975
Look, it's for as smart
as they are, they have

914
00:27:03,975 --> 00:27:04,875
a weakness built in.

915
00:27:05,264 --> 00:27:05,475
Yep.

916
00:27:06,105 --> 00:27:08,445
But a competitor that's
willing to lose and keep

917
00:27:08,445 --> 00:27:11,655
coming back, that person
is dangerous as hell.

918
00:27:12,135 --> 00:27:12,225
Yeah.

919
00:27:12,225 --> 00:27:13,665
That person is
dangerous as hell.

920
00:27:13,905 --> 00:27:15,945
It's funny, I had this
conversation with somebody a few

921
00:27:15,945 --> 00:27:19,395
weeks ago, was that that classic
thing of one of my competitors,

922
00:27:19,485 --> 00:27:20,445
uh, just got funded.

923
00:27:21,195 --> 00:27:22,875
Now I'm scared of what's
gonna happen with them.

924
00:27:22,875 --> 00:27:24,525
I was like, well, maybe.

925
00:27:24,645 --> 00:27:27,225
I was like, but you've been
around for, for five years.

926
00:27:27,375 --> 00:27:28,395
They've been around for two.

927
00:27:28,455 --> 00:27:28,725
Yes.

928
00:27:28,725 --> 00:27:30,105
They just got But
they just got funded.

929
00:27:30,195 --> 00:27:30,945
Yeah, probably.

930
00:27:30,975 --> 00:27:31,605
'cause they needed it.

931
00:27:31,605 --> 00:27:31,875
Right.

932
00:27:32,235 --> 00:27:34,665
You've established a business,
you have recurring revenue,

933
00:27:34,665 --> 00:27:36,855
you're, you have a more stable
position than they do now.

934
00:27:36,945 --> 00:27:37,785
They have something to lose.

935
00:27:38,265 --> 00:27:39,015
But so does this company.

936
00:27:39,015 --> 00:27:39,165
Right?

937
00:27:39,165 --> 00:27:40,215
They have a, they
have a run rate.

938
00:27:40,745 --> 00:27:43,295
I said actually, of the
competitors in your space,

939
00:27:43,565 --> 00:27:45,905
there's another one that I'd
be more concerned about because

940
00:27:45,905 --> 00:27:47,225
they're more like you, right?

941
00:27:47,225 --> 00:27:47,285
Yeah.

942
00:27:47,285 --> 00:27:49,865
They've been around, they've
proven that they can recover.

943
00:27:50,135 --> 00:27:52,325
They're not moving as fast
as this funded company,

944
00:27:52,325 --> 00:27:54,125
but that's one of those
signals that like everybody

945
00:27:54,125 --> 00:27:55,025
gets really worried about.

946
00:27:55,025 --> 00:27:56,165
They get scared, oh,
they're gonna come.

947
00:27:56,165 --> 00:27:57,335
They're gonna, they're
gonna take us out.

948
00:27:57,665 --> 00:27:59,645
All that means is they've
got a budget to fail against.

949
00:28:00,010 --> 00:28:01,300
So, yeah, there's
some truth to that.

950
00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:03,280
And you know, we've done
whole episodes on this.

951
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,460
It's like, at which point you
think you've seen exactly how

952
00:28:06,460 --> 00:28:07,450
the story's gonna play out.

953
00:28:07,450 --> 00:28:08,710
It never plays out that way.

954
00:28:08,770 --> 00:28:08,860
No.

955
00:28:08,860 --> 00:28:11,980
Again, I'll go back to investors
20 investments, two successes.

956
00:28:12,250 --> 00:28:12,370
Yeah.

957
00:28:12,370 --> 00:28:14,560
If the people who put the
money in all the companies

958
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,900
are always the ones that
are successful, then why are

959
00:28:16,900 --> 00:28:18,310
most of them unsuccessful?

960
00:28:18,310 --> 00:28:20,380
And let's take that a step
further 'cause I can, I never

961
00:28:20,380 --> 00:28:21,310
wanna overlook this one.

962
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,050
Most investors.

963
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:26,860
Most investors, I'm talking
venture capital investors.

964
00:28:27,210 --> 00:28:28,320
Are unsuccessful.

965
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:28,830
Right.

966
00:28:28,830 --> 00:28:32,100
Most investors are
unsuccessful at what they do.

967
00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:33,420
They suck at what they do.

968
00:28:33,660 --> 00:28:33,780
Yeah.

969
00:28:33,780 --> 00:28:34,080
Right.

970
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,030
Now, this isn't me
like, you know, bone

971
00:28:36,030 --> 00:28:37,050
to pick with investors.

972
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:37,620
Just math

973
00:28:38,340 --> 00:28:38,910
numerically.

974
00:28:38,910 --> 00:28:39,390
Exactly.

975
00:28:39,395 --> 00:28:39,675
Yeah, exactly.

976
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:40,530
You can't fake it.

977
00:28:40,740 --> 00:28:43,140
There is a quadrant that
they all pay attention to,

978
00:28:43,470 --> 00:28:46,740
and in the top quartile, the
Sequoias, A 16 Zs of the world.

979
00:28:46,860 --> 00:28:47,070
Right.

980
00:28:47,070 --> 00:28:49,350
Are there year after
year, all the time.

981
00:28:49,620 --> 00:28:49,830
Right.

982
00:28:49,890 --> 00:28:51,720
And then there's
frigging everybody else.

983
00:28:51,750 --> 00:28:52,200
Everyone else,

984
00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:52,440
right.

985
00:28:52,620 --> 00:28:52,800
Yeah.

986
00:28:52,860 --> 00:28:54,900
In that bottom
quartile of investors.

987
00:28:55,260 --> 00:28:56,580
Are the worst investors.

988
00:28:56,730 --> 00:28:56,790
Yeah.

989
00:28:56,790 --> 00:28:59,310
Now I say that to say they're
probably pretty smart people.

990
00:28:59,580 --> 00:28:59,640
Yeah.

991
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,650
Like generally if you put
them, you know, uh, compared

992
00:29:01,650 --> 00:29:03,450
to other humans out there
doing their job, they're

993
00:29:03,450 --> 00:29:04,470
probably pretty smart people.

994
00:29:04,620 --> 00:29:07,770
However, the nature
of this business does

995
00:29:07,770 --> 00:29:08,670
not breed certainty.

996
00:29:09,060 --> 00:29:10,950
In look, these
investors do diligence.

997
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:14,430
They try to do everything
possible to hedge for success.

998
00:29:14,780 --> 00:29:18,440
Yet they consistently fail
over and over and over.

999
00:29:18,590 --> 00:29:22,100
They even have the benefit of
only picking the best players.

1000
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:22,490
Right.

1001
00:29:22,580 --> 00:29:22,790
Right.

1002
00:29:22,790 --> 00:29:24,800
It's not like they get
stuck with like a a 12th

1003
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:25,700
round draft pick kind of

1004
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:25,790
thing.

1005
00:29:25,790 --> 00:29:25,940
Yeah,

1006
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:26,510
right.

1007
00:29:26,660 --> 00:29:27,740
You gotta take one of these two.

1008
00:29:27,740 --> 00:29:29,090
Like, I don't want
either of those two.

1009
00:29:29,330 --> 00:29:32,390
Like the top 10% of companies
that are out there raising

1010
00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:34,520
are the ones that are gonna
get a check from anybody.

1011
00:29:34,730 --> 00:29:34,790
Yeah.

1012
00:29:34,790 --> 00:29:36,710
And then a percentage of
those are like the top ones

1013
00:29:36,710 --> 00:29:38,540
that'll wind up getting a
check from Sequoia, et cetera.

1014
00:29:38,930 --> 00:29:42,020
But Sequoia has a, a list
of failures, a mile long.

1015
00:29:42,470 --> 00:29:42,800
Right.

1016
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:44,300
And that's Sequoia, right?

1017
00:29:44,540 --> 00:29:46,850
They're by far the
best at what they do.

1018
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,419
There is a great VC that
invested in us years ago,

1019
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,480
uh, called Bessemer and you
know, very storied fund,

1020
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,470
one of the oldest funds.

1021
00:29:54,830 --> 00:29:56,450
And I invested in
one of my companies.

1022
00:29:56,450 --> 00:29:58,580
And I remember when I went
to pitch them initially,

1023
00:29:58,879 --> 00:30:01,100
they had this great thing
and it was basically

1024
00:30:01,100 --> 00:30:02,300
their wall of mistakes.

1025
00:30:02,790 --> 00:30:05,040
And it was all of the
companies they passed on

1026
00:30:05,159 --> 00:30:07,199
and it was on their website
if I, if I recall too.

1027
00:30:07,290 --> 00:30:07,620
Right.

1028
00:30:07,740 --> 00:30:11,070
And I thought, how smart,
like, how, like humbling.

1029
00:30:11,250 --> 00:30:11,340
Yeah.

1030
00:30:11,370 --> 00:30:12,899
Um, which you don't see
a lot in the VC world.

1031
00:30:13,169 --> 00:30:16,800
Um, how humbling to say
we make lots of mistakes.

1032
00:30:16,830 --> 00:30:16,949
Yeah.

1033
00:30:16,980 --> 00:30:17,639
But guess what?

1034
00:30:17,850 --> 00:30:20,459
The successes we make, the
ones where we, you know, find

1035
00:30:20,459 --> 00:30:23,610
that, that success they make
up for, for the other ones.

1036
00:30:23,820 --> 00:30:24,705
Isn't that kind of
what we do though?

1037
00:30:25,355 --> 00:30:26,105
That's exactly it.

1038
00:30:26,405 --> 00:30:27,875
You have to measure
the failures, right?

1039
00:30:27,875 --> 00:30:30,065
If you quit after your first
failure, the measure's not gonna

1040
00:30:30,065 --> 00:30:31,565
land in in your favor, right?

1041
00:30:31,565 --> 00:30:34,835
But if you continue to fail
small, and then eventually you

1042
00:30:34,835 --> 00:30:36,695
win big, it bears out, right?

1043
00:30:36,695 --> 00:30:38,585
And I think this
is super important.

1044
00:30:38,585 --> 00:30:41,675
I'm, I'm always thinking in
terms of like, how can we

1045
00:30:41,675 --> 00:30:46,265
create the smallest blast radius
within failure, but at a really

1046
00:30:46,265 --> 00:30:47,585
high blast frequency, right?

1047
00:30:47,585 --> 00:30:49,835
Like, I want lots of
little explosions and I

1048
00:30:49,835 --> 00:30:50,645
wanna limit the damage.

1049
00:30:50,705 --> 00:30:51,095
Why?

1050
00:30:51,095 --> 00:30:53,255
Because this is
how we get there.

1051
00:30:53,435 --> 00:30:53,855
Right.

1052
00:30:53,975 --> 00:30:54,185
Right.

1053
00:30:54,425 --> 00:30:56,465
I do love to break these
things up and I think this

1054
00:30:56,465 --> 00:30:57,755
is part of how you get
more comfortable with it.

1055
00:30:57,755 --> 00:30:57,935
Right.

1056
00:30:57,935 --> 00:31:01,925
I'd rather push ten one percent
risks than one 10% risk.

1057
00:31:01,930 --> 00:31:02,280
Right?

1058
00:31:02,285 --> 00:31:02,435
Right.

1059
00:31:02,435 --> 00:31:06,275
Like, how can we test really
small and, and again, default

1060
00:31:06,275 --> 00:31:07,805
to reversible decisions?

1061
00:31:08,015 --> 00:31:10,085
My thinking has always
been, if I can roll it

1062
00:31:10,085 --> 00:31:11,435
back, let's roll it out.

1063
00:31:11,465 --> 00:31:12,815
Like what are we waiting
for at this point?

1064
00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:15,845
If, if we build on that
though, we've also taken

1065
00:31:15,845 --> 00:31:19,235
this same skillset and
holy shit, is it portable

1066
00:31:19,235 --> 00:31:19,800
to the rest of your life?

1067
00:31:20,405 --> 00:31:22,625
You know, as I've been building
a house, a house, I should

1068
00:31:22,625 --> 00:31:23,975
not be able to build that.

1069
00:31:23,975 --> 00:31:26,165
I have no, like, prior
capability to build,

1070
00:31:26,435 --> 00:31:27,965
but I designed the
house, I architected

1071
00:31:27,965 --> 00:31:28,715
the house to an extent.

1072
00:31:29,045 --> 00:31:30,215
I gcd the house.

1073
00:31:30,245 --> 00:31:31,865
I was the master
carpenter for the house.

1074
00:31:32,135 --> 00:31:33,425
I've never been a master
carpenter for a house.

1075
00:31:33,425 --> 00:31:34,835
The master carpenter
builds every single

1076
00:31:34,835 --> 00:31:35,825
thing in a house, right?

1077
00:31:36,155 --> 00:31:36,815
That's what I did.

1078
00:31:37,115 --> 00:31:38,195
And it's a good sized house.

1079
00:31:38,195 --> 00:31:39,935
So like when we're talking
about the scale of it, like

1080
00:31:40,025 --> 00:31:42,245
if, if you're gonna pick
up like your first starter

1081
00:31:42,245 --> 00:31:43,475
project, it ain't a cabin.

1082
00:31:44,070 --> 00:31:47,070
And so just the scale of, it's
also kind of overwhelming.

1083
00:31:47,370 --> 00:31:50,760
And I say this to say, the
reason I was willing to do

1084
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,090
that in a trade that I've never
been in, I mean, I did all of

1085
00:31:54,090 --> 00:31:55,980
this for the very first time.

1086
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,040
The reason I was willing
to do it is 'cause I knew I

1087
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,440
was good at failing and I've
made plenty of mistakes.

1088
00:32:01,500 --> 00:32:01,680
Yeah.

1089
00:32:01,710 --> 00:32:02,610
No lack of mistakes.

1090
00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:02,850
Right?

1091
00:32:02,850 --> 00:32:04,650
And some of those, those
are fairly expensive,

1092
00:32:04,950 --> 00:32:06,270
but I'm kind of like, so.

1093
00:32:06,875 --> 00:32:08,255
I'll figure it
out and go for it.

1094
00:32:08,465 --> 00:32:10,355
And all the people in
that world, uh, the other

1095
00:32:10,355 --> 00:32:12,395
contractors and all the
folks that are involved in

1096
00:32:12,395 --> 00:32:14,195
it are blown away by this.

1097
00:32:14,675 --> 00:32:18,005
Like they are blown away that
someone's willing to just roll

1098
00:32:18,005 --> 00:32:21,185
the dice on all these things
and figure it out later.

1099
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,130
Like, but that's not what we do.

1100
00:32:23,670 --> 00:32:24,540
I'm like, that's what I do.

1101
00:32:24,565 --> 00:32:25,385
That's what I do.

1102
00:32:25,525 --> 00:32:26,310
I'm really good at it.

1103
00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:26,490
Right?

1104
00:32:26,490 --> 00:32:26,610
Yep.

1105
00:32:26,910 --> 00:32:29,490
And what I tell them, I'm
not good at being successful.

1106
00:32:29,490 --> 00:32:31,560
I'm good at being,
making failures and

1107
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:32,400
then figuring it out.

1108
00:32:32,670 --> 00:32:34,200
These guys are not
good at failing.

1109
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:34,560
Right.

1110
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,050
Like, they get one thing wrong
and they're done for the day.

1111
00:32:37,290 --> 00:32:37,470
Yeah.

1112
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:38,850
Like, well, don't
know what to do here.

1113
00:32:38,850 --> 00:32:39,780
It's time to go in for the day.

1114
00:32:39,780 --> 00:32:40,350
I'm like, okay.

1115
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,870
And the one other thing I, I
wanna apply this to, because

1116
00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:46,320
I still think it, it, it's
important, it's really led to

1117
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,510
me having no regrets in life.

1118
00:32:48,990 --> 00:32:50,730
And when I say that.

1119
00:32:51,195 --> 00:32:54,555
There are situations in life
that turned out regrettably.

1120
00:32:54,855 --> 00:32:55,095
Yeah.

1121
00:32:55,365 --> 00:32:58,455
But when I say no regrets,
I mean there's never a time

1122
00:32:58,455 --> 00:33:01,095
where I should have said
yes and didn't say yes.

1123
00:33:01,305 --> 00:33:01,455
Yeah,

1124
00:33:01,485 --> 00:33:01,665
right.

1125
00:33:01,665 --> 00:33:03,975
There's never a time when I
can look back and say, ah, man,

1126
00:33:03,975 --> 00:33:04,725
coulda, woulda, should have.

1127
00:33:05,445 --> 00:33:06,690
I said yes to everything.

1128
00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:10,699
To everything and lived
a wonderfully colorful

1129
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:11,959
experiential life.

1130
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,240
I see you doing it with
your family all the time.

1131
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:14,300
Yeah.

1132
00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:16,520
You guys just explore like
it's nobody's business.

1133
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,520
It's the coolest thing,
and it comes from

1134
00:33:19,730 --> 00:33:21,649
this sense of why not?

1135
00:33:21,745 --> 00:33:22,280
Yeah, yeah.

1136
00:33:22,429 --> 00:33:22,730
Right.

1137
00:33:22,730 --> 00:33:23,090
Why not?

1138
00:33:23,149 --> 00:33:23,719
Why not?

1139
00:33:23,990 --> 00:33:24,050
Yeah.

1140
00:33:24,050 --> 00:33:24,115
I have.

1141
00:33:25,170 --> 00:33:28,320
Endless tales that
started off with why not?

1142
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:30,720
And that's the tapestry
of my life and I'm,

1143
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:31,530
I'm very proud of it.

1144
00:33:31,950 --> 00:33:33,630
I think one of the other
ways that I've become more

1145
00:33:33,630 --> 00:33:36,090
comfortable with this over
time, but before I make

1146
00:33:36,090 --> 00:33:38,880
the decision, like before I
dive into something, right?

1147
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,190
Like whether that's adventuring
around the world or building

1148
00:33:41,190 --> 00:33:42,420
business, whatever it is, right?

1149
00:33:42,810 --> 00:33:45,480
I do try to think through, I
may not know what the outcome

1150
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:46,800
of the decision's gonna be,
but there are a few things

1151
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:47,490
that I can control, right?

1152
00:33:47,490 --> 00:33:49,020
I can cap my losses in time.

1153
00:33:49,574 --> 00:33:52,965
I can cap my losses, losses
in cash before I begin.

1154
00:33:53,205 --> 00:33:53,445
Right.

1155
00:33:53,445 --> 00:33:55,034
And I can set some kill
switches and I can sort

1156
00:33:55,034 --> 00:33:56,774
of decide the stop rules.

1157
00:33:57,165 --> 00:33:57,284
Yeah.

1158
00:33:57,284 --> 00:33:58,995
Before emotion shows up.

1159
00:33:58,995 --> 00:34:01,814
Before anything could,
could kind of take me off

1160
00:34:01,814 --> 00:34:02,864
of my game as it were.

1161
00:34:02,864 --> 00:34:03,104
Right.

1162
00:34:03,104 --> 00:34:04,364
And make me worse at failing.

1163
00:34:04,364 --> 00:34:04,544
Right.

1164
00:34:04,544 --> 00:34:07,274
So part of being good at
failing is, is sort of having

1165
00:34:07,274 --> 00:34:08,835
a plan for how failure happens.

1166
00:34:08,839 --> 00:34:08,989
Right?

1167
00:34:09,045 --> 00:34:09,284
Right.

1168
00:34:09,284 --> 00:34:09,710
You see the same.

1169
00:34:10,335 --> 00:34:10,755
I do.

1170
00:34:10,755 --> 00:34:13,125
And, and it's funny 'cause
I apply that whenever I'm

1171
00:34:13,125 --> 00:34:14,565
gambling, I don't gamble a ton.

1172
00:34:14,565 --> 00:34:14,655
Uhhuh.

1173
00:34:15,075 --> 00:34:17,805
I always go by the famous
Alex Trebek quote, which

1174
00:34:17,805 --> 00:34:21,225
says, uh, winning doesn't
bring me a lot of pleasure,

1175
00:34:21,225 --> 00:34:22,305
but I fucking hate to fail.

1176
00:34:22,485 --> 00:34:22,665
Yeah,

1177
00:34:22,875 --> 00:34:22,965
right.

1178
00:34:22,965 --> 00:34:23,505
I hate to lose.

1179
00:34:23,505 --> 00:34:23,805
Right.

1180
00:34:23,970 --> 00:34:26,145
I, I was like, I just picture
Alex Trebek saying that it

1181
00:34:26,145 --> 00:34:27,045
cracks me up every time.

1182
00:34:27,345 --> 00:34:29,685
But like when my wife and
I, uh, go to the casino

1183
00:34:29,685 --> 00:34:32,325
and we go to the tables, we
play blackjack every time.

1184
00:34:32,355 --> 00:34:33,255
'cause we can play forever.

1185
00:34:33,555 --> 00:34:35,025
And, uh, we always
be a small amount.

1186
00:34:35,085 --> 00:34:37,245
Like we, we never go high stakes
or anything else like that.

1187
00:34:37,245 --> 00:34:37,305
Yeah.

1188
00:34:37,755 --> 00:34:38,055
And.

1189
00:34:38,384 --> 00:34:40,484
I always say the same thing
as we're playing, wanting

1190
00:34:40,484 --> 00:34:43,754
to stop taking my chips,
and my wife never wins.

1191
00:34:43,754 --> 00:34:44,534
She just takes all my chips.

1192
00:34:44,834 --> 00:34:47,895
The, the second is I said,
let's bet small and win big.

1193
00:34:48,104 --> 00:34:50,234
Let's, let's make lots
and lots of small bets.

1194
00:34:50,324 --> 00:34:53,205
And over time those compound
and that's how we win.

1195
00:34:53,654 --> 00:34:54,854
And it, and it somehow works.

1196
00:34:54,854 --> 00:34:55,514
It somehow works.

1197
00:34:55,514 --> 00:34:56,234
Maybe we're just lucky.

1198
00:34:56,384 --> 00:34:59,265
But I'll say this, the
reason it works for me.

1199
00:34:59,315 --> 00:35:03,005
And I think for founders in
life is because if you're

1200
00:35:03,005 --> 00:35:05,075
willing, like you said, I
love you said the kill switch.

1201
00:35:05,315 --> 00:35:08,495
If you're willing to make those
small bets over and over and

1202
00:35:08,495 --> 00:35:09,575
over, you know your limits.

1203
00:35:09,575 --> 00:35:13,565
You know your, your kill switch
is you become invincible.

1204
00:35:13,655 --> 00:35:13,925
Yes.

1205
00:35:13,925 --> 00:35:17,675
You become the person that's
willing to go and go and go,

1206
00:35:17,765 --> 00:35:19,325
and no one can knock you down.

1207
00:35:19,325 --> 00:35:20,435
They can knock you back,

1208
00:35:20,735 --> 00:35:22,745
Mario, with the
invincibility star.

1209
00:35:23,115 --> 00:35:24,105
Exactly man.

1210
00:35:24,105 --> 00:35:25,905
They can never knock you down.

1211
00:35:26,145 --> 00:35:29,595
And if you're willing and
able to keep coming back over

1212
00:35:29,805 --> 00:35:33,075
and over and over again, no
matter what happens, you are

1213
00:35:33,075 --> 00:35:36,195
as close to invincibility
as you can possibly get

1214
00:35:36,195 --> 00:35:37,035
in the startup space.

1215
00:35:37,365 --> 00:35:40,215
When you show up as a
founder with as Mr. And

1216
00:35:40,215 --> 00:35:43,605
Mrs. Invincibility, no
one can stop you ever.

1217
00:35:44,625 --> 00:35:46,455
Overthinking your startup
because you're going it alone.

1218
00:35:46,875 --> 00:35:49,785
You don't have to, and honestly,
you shouldn't because instead,

1219
00:35:49,785 --> 00:35:52,845
you can learn directly from
peers who've been in your shoes.

1220
00:35:52,935 --> 00:35:55,274
Connect with bootstrap
founders and the advisors

1221
00:35:55,274 --> 00:35:57,705
helping them win in the
startups.com community.

1222
00:35:57,855 --> 00:36:02,504
Check out the startups.com
community@www.startups.com

1223
00:36:02,595 --> 00:36:03,524
to see if it's for you.

1224
00:36:03,765 --> 00:36:04,815
Could be just the
thing you need.

1225
00:36:05,024 --> 00:36:06,015
I hope to see you inside.