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Ever wonder how women break into and become a leader in the gaming industry? Welcome to Smart Driven Women. I'm Rona Job. Here, impactful leaders and entrepreneurs come to share how they navigate their complex careers and personal lives.
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Our guest today is Sarah Fuchs. is the co-founder, co-CEO, and board chair at Muus Collective. Muus Collective is an entertainment studio that builds community-driven, fashion-forward experiences across mobile games and e-commerce. The studio's debut, mobile fashion game Belmint, empowers players to discover inspiration, style unique looks, and share their creativity.
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Spellment is available for download on the App Store and the Google Play. A games industry veteran, Sarah was the VP NGM of Covet Fashion at Glu Mobile prior to their acquisition by Electronic Arts. Sarah led production on The Sims Mobile for Maxis and other mobile titles at Nway and NG Moko DNA. Sarah was a producer for Spore, X-Men, The Sims 2, The Godfather.
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and James Bond, Everything or Nothing at Activision, Maxis, and Electronic Arts. Sarah's passionate about making space for female creators and creating products for diverse audiences. She holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from George Washington University, and her other full-time job is a mom to four kids and two Irish wolfhounds. Sarah, welcome.
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Thank you so much, Rona. Thank you for having me. Amazing. I'm so glad to have you in the studio, so to speak, and so glad to have this conversation with you. We start off every single one of our podcasts with some rapid fire. Love it. So I'm going to ask you some questions and we're just going to get right into it. OK. What city do you live in and who's in your household? I live in San Rafael, California, which is about 10 miles north of San Francisco. My household includes my husband Clive.
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four teenage children, two Irish wolfhounds. Ooh, teenagers. Coffee or tea in the morning? Oh my gosh, it really depends on the day. Sometimes I'll do matcha, sometimes I'll do coffee, but I make my own cashew milk every morning. And it's like a whole production for me. It's great. Oh, wow. A ritual, so to speak. What's the last book you finished? The Wedding People was really great. Let's write that down. One word to describe your leadership style.
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Empathetic. Favorite app on your phone? Belment, of course. Podcast or audiobooks? Both. Always. Who's a professional role model for you? This is not a rapid fire question, Rona, because for me, being a professional in the games industry, there weren't a lot of women to look up to. So there are a lot of people that I admire, but I can't name someone in my industry that I specifically look up to.
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All right. How about mountains or beach for vacation? Oh my gosh. Mountains in the winter, beach in the summer. Is that acceptable? Yeah, totally acceptable. I love that. One cause you're passionate about. I am really passionate about literacy and children, making sure that everyone understands how to read. And I'm also passionate about using animals to help make people feel better. Animal assisted therapy.
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Yeah, I 100 % agree. Best career advice you've ever received? Say yes to opportunity. Say yes. I'm going to start, I'm going to write that down. And last question. What trend in the mobile gaming field excites you the most right now? Well, you can't really talk about trends in mobile gaming without talking about AI. So AI both frightens and terrifies me. I think there are a lot of advances that we could use to make our creativity, to accelerate our creativity.
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but I also worry that AI is gonna take over some creative opportunities for people. I feel like we've learned so much during this rapid fire that I'm really excited for this conversation. So I'm gonna bring it way back a little bit and ask you, which I ask a lot of the guests that come on, before you started your professional career journey, did you consider yourself driven and when do you think that started with you?
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I think I've always been driven. I've always wanted to get good grades. I always wanted to do well. I always knew that there was a purpose for me, but I wouldn't say that I was necessarily driven. I think once, once I figured out that I could be somebody that other women looked up to, then I became driven. I was like, I have a purpose now. You had that passion to kind of be an example, so to speak. It's interesting because you said you didn't really have, you couldn't point back to a specific
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role model that feels like that's a driver for... Yeah. Yeah, totally. Working on game development, you know, in the early 2000s, which seems so long ago, there weren't a lot of women and there was, you know, maybe one or two people on a game development team. And there was a sort of feeling of like, well, I'm the woman on the game development team. So it's not, you know, there's not room for other people. And I would love to go back in time and like beat that Sarah up and be like, no, like the more you bring up...
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the better. I feel like now it's really, I feel like it's my role to elevate other women, to help these scaffolding for other women, to bring other women up, especially in games. And so I just think it's really important to be that person and to be that role model. Yeah. And you mentioned that was around the time that you had gotten into
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the gaming industry. Before that, did you, I know you said you saw some elements in yourself that like, yeah, I always wanted to get good grades, but it didn't really fully click until you were like, you know what, I want to make sure I'm also a beacon and a guide and build that scaffolding for other women. Before you got into the gaming industry, what was this, what was driving you then? Well, I really wanted to do nonprofit work.
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So I was really driven by helping other people. I had interned at the American Cancer Society. I had interned at National Geographic. Because going to school in Washington, D.C., you have all of these amazing opportunities for internships. And I was really into how can I help make the world a better place? And then I also needed to pay my rent. And so then I was like, how can I make the world a better place through games?
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And it took a really long time. There's so many great people out there doing games for change and really positive things with games. But for me, I think it's really about how can I create a more diverse opportunity, more diverse games, bring more diverse people into the creation of games. And so that's what that's what drives me now. I think what drove me then was like, how can I make a difference in the world? Yeah. And I feel like for a lot of smart, driven women, there is that
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I don't want to say inherent, but it is kind of an inherent drive to be like, okay, what can I do to improve the world around me? What can I? How can I leave a mark? And like you, I started a nonprofit, you know, because I thought, you know, what better way to start impacting the world by giving back and working in nonprofit and really focusing on a very specific issue that I can make a mark in. How did you find yourself in gaming?
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So I always like to say that I fell into games. I was in school in Washington and I really wanted to get out of the East Coast. I grew up in Nashville. Nashville was nowhere near as cool as it is now back then. And I moved out to San Francisco with no job, with no place to live. I was staying with my grandmother and I was looking for a job in PR. The only job I could find was PR for gaming. And I took that job and spent time learning about PR, learning about games, that company, that studio closed down.
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I had a roommate whose girlfriend said, you know, I've got a role at Electronic Arts. Are you interested? And I said, yes, I'm interested in continuing to pay the rent. So I interviewed for that job, became an assistant producer at Electronic Arts and then have wound my way around the game industry ever since. And that was in 2001. 2001, I feel like that was, it wasn't that long ago, but it feels that long ago, especially with where...
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gaming, you know, how far gaming has come, right? I mean, that was before mobile phones. Like, everybody had little Nokia cell phones at that time. You mentioned AI and gaming and we can kind of now, you know, see 2001, we didn't even have smartphones on the regular. had the brick Nokia play phone, play games on it, you play snake on it. play snake? Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, of course. And now you've got full on games on.
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your smartphones. mean, these are like really you look at the graphics and you look at the storyline and you look at functionality in these games. They're AAA titles on mobile. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I love so much about mobile games. I spent a lot of my early career working on console and PC titles like The Sims 2, The Godfather, James Bond, Everything or Nothing, Spore. But what I love about mobile gaming is that it really democratizes gaming for people.
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Everyone has a phone, not everyone has a PC or a console. So everyone can spend some time playing a game. And that is why I really love this platform because, you know, even if you have no interest in owning a console, you can spend five minutes playing and you can be social, you could learn something. There's such wealth. There's a tapestry of games that you could play on the mobile phone. You have four teenagers. Yes. Yeah. Do they think it's cool that mom is in the gaming industry?
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Do they skip that way at all? they really think anything about what I do is cool. But... Good point. I mean, like, do you know how cool I am? Like my job, like... And they're just like, no, they're... And please don't use that word. You know, they're like, don't you... It's chill now, mom. It's chill. But yeah, no, they don't really think that. They're just like, can you drive me someplace? Yeah. They roll their eyes at me when I use the...
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Mean Girls line. Oh my gosh. There's lots of eye rolling in my house. I'm not a regular mom. I'm a cool mom. they're like, oh, can you stop? None of us are cool to our own children. I'm kind cool to their friends though. Oh, nice. they're like, we have a bellman. My game has a partnership with Revolve, which is one of the leading fashion retailers in the world for Gen Z. And they are
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everybody knows Revolve. And so I'm like, oh, when I partner with Revolve, they're like, oh yeah. And I'm like, oh yeah, and one of our advisory board members is Paris Hilton, Felicia Day. They're like, oh, we know who those people are. there's some adjacent coolness, but I am not cool to them. Yeah. But they know you work hard. They do know I work hard. And they're really respectful of that. And I love showing them that. And the pandemic was almost a gift in some ways. Of course, was horrible in many ways.
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But in some ways it's a gift because they can see how hard I work. And now I can pick them up from school where I never could pick them up from school before because I worked from home. Going through, you know, parenting in the pandemic. And I mean, I can't I have three kids. I can't imagine with four kids. There was a lot of fighting. Oh, gosh. Where's the quiet room? You know, what can we do? But, you know, the pandemic in so many ways was like a horrific experience. So many lives were lost. It was just
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time loss. feel like education wise, my children really suffered. But there were some really key positives for me. Like my kids came together, we were all like cleaning the house together, we were wiping off groceries together. We were, you know, making new recipes together. We spent like 10 hours making a birthday cake for somebody's birthday because we had the time. And we moved, we left San Francisco and moved to San Rafael to have more space. Now we have a backyard, which is fantastic.
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But it really, in some ways, brought us together. And then they could really see, they could listen in on some of my calls and they're like, oh, mom does. She is kind of a boss. She doesn't just drive us to places. That's right. I am a chauffeur, cook, all of those things that moms are and dads are. But I also run a company. you think they see some similarities between how you run and organize your day?
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coming out of the pandemic or even maybe in a day to day. And do they see kind of the parallels and maybe how that translates into, mom's not gonna like this or mom's not gonna want me to do it this way because I know who she is, I know how she runs. Or do you think they hear any of that or see any of that on the day to day? I think I don't. I think that they see CEO mom as work mom and regular mom as regular mom. But I am pretty regimented about what I do because I...
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have to be four kids full-time job, two dogs that need to be walked. you know, exercise is so important. And so I really regimented about what I do. get up 5.45, I work out, I have breakfast, I make sure everybody has what they need. People are off to school, and then I'm sitting down to work. And my work hours have really changed. work from about 8 a.m. to about 3 p.m. now. And then if I need to, dabble at other...
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other hours, but I try to have those meetings during that time so that when they're home, I can spend time with them, which I never could. I feel like they're early childhoods. I was commuting. I was not there. It was just like, mom wasn't here and now I am and I'm so much more present in their lives. And I feel like that's really amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard being a founder. It's hard building up a company and listening to you talk about, yeah, you've to be up at 5.30 AM, 5.45, get them out at the door.
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get them out the door and then start to focus on you, focus on your impact now to the outside world. How important has that been to your own identity or was that never even like a consideration of like, oh yeah, no, this is who I'm gonna be. This is always who I'm gonna be. I don't think there's ever a, is always who I'm gonna be. think, you know, part of the whole...
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experience of life, this journey that we're on is learning about ourselves and growing and pausing and recognizing that, you know, you're there's always something for you to learn, like no matter what. And you can learn something from unusual places. You can your kids teach you stuff. Your dogs teach you stuff. I think I'm not sure I really answered your question, though. No, no, that was great. I mean, I feel like, you know, a lot of women, especially when they are starting out,
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in their career or maybe if they're taking a pause in their career, there is a lot of identity questions and issues I think that people sit with. Oh yeah. And it's always like, oh, but I was this, am I still this? Should I be this? Oh Even as young as eight, nine, I see it in my daughter, see it in my kids, know, where that identity sort of is like, well, is that me? Is that going to be me? And it's always, my answer has always been,
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you let yourself grow. Your identity now doesn't need to be the same identity. Let yourself evolve. Let yourself learn. sure. I think that learning thing, that learning is so important. And I think there's that imposter syndrome as well in everything that we do. And for so long, I was like, I am a mom and I am making games and I am this person. But I think like letting, making space for other things like getting
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nature time and spiritual time and creative time. It's really important in shaping who you are and learning to care less about what other people think. I feel like right now my 14 year old daughter is like, don't be seen with me, don't do anything embarrassing. Like I rolled down the window and I dropped her off and I shout, I love you. And she's like, other people are here. And I'm like, yeah, and you're gonna remember this when you're older. And I always shouted, I love you. But I mean, it's been a tough journey because, know,
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being a woman in the games industry is tough. And I was laid off during my maternity leave. And this was 2009. And two months after I had my first baby, and I'm like, who am I? What am I? Am I a mom? And that whole like, difficulty and like wanting to be amazing. And they called me up, have a, nursing. And they're like, we're gonna have to let you go. And I'm, I was so, you know, in that new mom mode, I didn't know how to be a mom. Like I was having trouble nursing. Like I was trying to,
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you know, get more than two minutes of sleep at a time. And they called and I was like, what am I now? Like, what's my identity? I've been this video game producer badass, and now I'm just, you know, somebody who doesn't have a job. And it was heartbreaking for me, even though, you know, prior to that, I'd gotten, you know, most stellar reviews, like you're, you know, and then they laid me off on my maternity leave. And I'm like, is this still happening in 2009? And like, a lawyer got involved and I was like,
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I'm not a litigious person. I don't want to be this person. Now, of course, it would be different if I were laid off on maternity leave, I would eviscerate them. You learned so much in 10, 20 years as a woman of yourself in general. Totally. And it ended up being a blessing in disguise because I was laid off and I found a job about 10 months later. I got to spend that time with my son. And then about 10 months later, I found a job where they were like, you can work three days a week.
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you can, you know, and then build back up to four days. And I had interviewed with another company and they were like, we love you, we want to hire you, but you can't work three days a week. And at that point I was like, I really want this for my kids. And so, you know what, going back to your other question, there is a woman named Carol who hired me at NG Moco who said, we love you. We think you're amazing. We think you're worth it. And we'll let you work for three days a week and build back up.
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And no one else in my career has ever been like, yeah, you're worth it. And she took that chance on me. So Carol, yes, is somebody that I look up to as a role model. And that's you in the gaming industry now as the role model for other women who are trying to break into this field that is, I mean, not, you know, there's not a lot of women. It's predominantly men, I'm assuming. I mean, it's where we're so much better than we ever were. And there are so many opportunities for women to break in now, but it's not where it should be.
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Yeah, yeah. How did you pull yourself out besides with, you know, besides Carol helping you, how did you kind of pull yourself out of that? Oh my gosh, like, what am I doing? What am I going to do? How do I even get back on the horse? Is this still me? What am I going to do in the future? Yeah, there was a lot of that for me because I really wasn't happy early on in my career because there was so much kind of uphill battling and feeling like I wasn't good enough. But I realized, you know, when I went back to work that
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And this was the dawn of mobile games. Okay, this was 2009. We were just starting. I was at NG moco and I was having so much fun. I was getting to do creative things, working with really creative people and I was enjoying myself and I was making money and I was making money for the game. And I realized, Hey, I'm actually good at this. There's, do actually have something to give. And when you have a new baby, you're exhausted all the time and you do feel like an imposter and you do feel like.
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when you leave your baby, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm the worst parent ever. And then when you leave your job, you're like, oh, I'm the worst employee ever. But none of that is true. Like you're giving, at least I was giving my best, but really it's about finding something creative that you do, being able to inspire and be inspired by other people. And I really found that, I really found my niche in mobile at that point. And I was like, this is amazing. This is something super fun. I am building something that other people are spending their time on.
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And what a gift that is that somebody is willing to give you their time for something that you built, obviously with the team, but it's just, it's such a good feeling. And so that was really how I pulled myself out of there and kind of continuing to work with and be inspired by amazing creative people. Well, I'm glad you didn't quit. We wouldn't have Muus Collective if you did. Thank you. There are...
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a lot of different challenges when you move from one role or identity in your life to another. And it doesn't get easier the older you get. I feel like there's just additional things that are put on your plate besides, you you're changing bodies and you're changing lifestyle and you're changing family and you're changing environment and pandemic and all of the above. What lessons learn can you share?
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when you've moved from different phases of your life from a driven person in the mobile gaming world to a manager, to a mom, to an executive, to a founder, because as you're going through these changes and evolution in your life, I feel like there's always a different set of skills that you're gonna need for the next level and the next level and the next level and that learning.
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process kind of starts over. Yeah, I think that's the key is you're always learning. And you're always learning from unexpected sources. And so I would say take that learning from anywhere you can. But also boundaries are really important. And this is something that I'm super firm about, like my boundaries with my time. It's really important when you're, you know, a mom or not a mom or a dog mom or cat mom or whatever you are, and an executive and a hardworking person.
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to make time for yourself. like I said, setting time aside for like a meditation or a walk or some outside nature time or even just getting up and getting 10 minutes of sun on your face. For me, it's exercise and making sure I have my delicious coffee that I work so hard on and really setting boundaries with your time. Like I will not schedule meetings after three o'clock unless it's an emergency. I will not schedule meetings before seven unless it's an emergency because I want to have that
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boundary for myself to be able to prepare myself mentally, emotionally and physically for the day to be able to exercise, to be able to take some deep breaths, to be able to set myself up for success. And then afterwards, I get exhausted. By the time three o'clock rolls around, I'm not my best self. And so I know that about me. So I take all my important meetings between eight and two. And then I do, you know, the work of the day that I have to do in between the meetings. But then after three o'clock, I give myself permission to just be like, OK,
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This is not my most productive time. So I'm going to walk the dogs. I'm going to pick up the kids. And if I need to do something later in the day, I will. But I really set these hard boundaries for myself because I know what works for me. And I think learning what works for you and finding what works for you is really important in setting boundaries. And my calendar is blocked off. People know not to schedule me before or after. And, you know, that has worked so far.
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You mentioned that your calendar is blocked off. And one thing that I've noticed about you is you're great at the boundary setting, but with the boundary setting comes really good systems behind you that you have to rely on. Otherwise those boundaries get crossed. One example is nobody gets on your calendar past three. Another boundary is making sure you're able to do your coffee in the morning or matcha or whatever it is, a time for yourself. What other sort of
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systems you have in place to allow you to be such an amazing mom, executive, and passionate leader, an example for other women. Well, first of all, thank you. That makes me feel amazing. I should come do your podcast every day for this buildup of self-esteem. The calendar is key. The boundaries are key. But look, you cannot be a mom and an executive without help. I want to be very clear. We cannot, nor should we do it all.
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In order to be great, rest is key. love to read. need to read like I'll read like, you know, a couple of books a week because that's my downtime. That's how I decompress. My husband is fantastic. I have a partner that, you know, does more than his share of the kids stuff, does all of the cooking. And I recognize how lucky I am. I'm the quartermaster of the house. I make sure we've got all the supplies that are needed and he'll cook. And that's amazing because I'm a terrible cook. I'm actually
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I'm an okay cook, but I hate it so much. I have a full time nanny. Like, let's be clear about that as well. And like, I know that that's not available to everyone. And it wasn't available to me at the beginning either. But you know, and I have somebody that does the laundry for me, I have somebody that when they were little picked up my kids because I could not do it. And I feel like I say that with a little bit of shame and I'm recognizing the shame.
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as well, it's like, but like, we should not pretend that we can do everything. Or be ashamed that you have the help. have the means and so I have the help. but I'm just like recognizing like, why do I feel ashamed to saying that? Like, I can't do it all. and without an amazing partner without this nanny who takes care of all of the things I wouldn't be able to do it. Like, I don't know how anyone could have kids and be an executive and do all of the household things.
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I do a lot of the mental work of raising the kids though. Like I know when the doctor's appointments are, I know when the dentist, I know when they need to be scheduled, but I'm not always the one driving them and I'm not always the one picking up. And so having help anywhere you can get help just to carve out a little space for yourself is really important. I would say that that's probably the biggest thing that's helped me is besides the boundaries and the rituals, it's like figuring out what you can offload to somebody else, even if it's just, you know, an hour a week.
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I can talk forever and a day about the help that executive women should have if they are to make the impact that they are making. I mean, it's funny that you say, I feel a little shame mentioning that. I don't think you're the only one. I feel a little shame mentioning sometimes that I do have help, but it's needed. Yeah, but look what you're doing.
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It's, look at the impact you're having on the world. I'm gonna say the same thing about you. Thank you. It's like, why do I feel shame? I shouldn't at all. I'm giving someone else a job and I'm not doing the things that I would hate to do so that I can do something that's impactful. And I think women should not feel shame about not being able to do everything because there was this moment in time where it was like, I'm superwoman. I'm not superwoman, no one is. And if you have to pretend to be,
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something is falling apart. Your mental health is falling apart. Your physical health is falling apart. And we as women need to prioritize our mental and physical health. We need to understand the things that are happening in our bodies, the changes. I didn't know what perimenopause was five years ago. Now I'm recognizing that it's actually impacting me on a day-to-day basis. And so how can I support myself through that?
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And so that's again, the continual learning. And so I'm like, what do I need to support myself? How do I get the help that that's needed? You know, if it's medical, if it's emotional, if it's, you know, somebody to buy groceries for me, if it's paying in Stacart, you know, how can I get the help so that I can do my best work for my employees and also for my kids and my husband? Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, gosh.
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Like I said, we could probably talk forever and a day about this topic. Yes. And there's just so many, so much to unpack there. In any case, I know this is a podcast with an end and it must have an end. Thank you so much for coming on. know, folks, for those of you who are listening, please connect with Sarah on LinkedIn.
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But also Sarah, besides connecting with you on LinkedIn, how else can people find more about the work that you do and who you are and what's exciting to you? Well, I think number one, download Belmint from the App Store or the Google Play Store and spend some time having fun in a mobile fashion styling game. Our game launched globally in March and we have a partnership with Revolve. We have seamless fashion, styling and e-commerce so you can play with fashion.
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And you can also, you know, buy things in real life or in the game. And it's really about having fun with fashion. And there's this stigma that games aren't for women and games aren't for girls and games aren't for, you know, older women, but they are like, we're all playing word. We're all playing words with friends. Those are games with people. People play the Sims. This is a game where you get to create yourself, create an avatar of yourself or somebody that you want to style. Do the hair, do the makeup, do the skin tone, do the face shape, do the eye color.
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And then style yourself with clothes that are real that you can buy in real life. And it's super fun and it's a fun way to connect. So I would say download Bellman, play with Bellman, look me up on LinkedIn. I'm always looking for ways to help bring women up in the video game industry and in tech. Really what I'll repeat this because I love this phrase. I think women should be scaffolding for other women. How can we help bring other people up so that we have a diverse tapestry of voices in the industry?
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people creating games, teams, and everyone will always be better if they are diverse. And having those diverse voices is so important. So I would leave you with that. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you for your insights. Thank you for your wisdom. Gosh, scaffolding for other women. I'm going to start using that. Do it. Again, Sarah, thank you for coming on. And folks, please download Bellman.
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Connect with Sarah on LinkedIn and until next time. Thank you so much for having me Rona. It was an absolute pleasure talking to you. I feel like I've made a new friend on this podcast. Ditto, ditto.
Ever wonder how women break into and become a leader in the gaming industry? Welcome to Smart Driven Women. I'm Rona Job. Here, impactful leaders and entrepreneurs come to share how they navigate their complex careers and personal lives.
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Our guest today is Sarah Fuchs. is the co-founder, co-CEO, and board chair at Muus Collective. Muus Collective is an entertainment studio that builds community-driven, fashion-forward experiences across mobile games and e-commerce. The studio's debut, mobile fashion game Belmint, empowers players to discover inspiration, style unique looks, and share their creativity.
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Spellment is available for download on the App Store and the Google Play. A games industry veteran, Sarah was the VP NGM of Covet Fashion at Glu Mobile prior to their acquisition by Electronic Arts. Sarah led production on The Sims Mobile for Maxis and other mobile titles at Nway and NG Moko DNA. Sarah was a producer for Spore, X-Men, The Sims 2, The Godfather.
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and James Bond, Everything or Nothing at Activision, Maxis, and Electronic Arts. Sarah's passionate about making space for female creators and creating products for diverse audiences. She holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from George Washington University, and her other full-time job is a mom to four kids and two Irish wolfhounds. Sarah, welcome.
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Thank you so much, Rona. Thank you for having me. Amazing. I'm so glad to have you in the studio, so to speak, and so glad to have this conversation with you. We start off every single one of our podcasts with some rapid fire. Love it. So I'm going to ask you some questions and we're just going to get right into it. OK. What city do you live in and who's in your household? I live in San Rafael, California, which is about 10 miles north of San Francisco. My household includes my husband Clive.
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four teenage children, two Irish wolfhounds. Ooh, teenagers. Coffee or tea in the morning? Oh my gosh, it really depends on the day. Sometimes I'll do matcha, sometimes I'll do coffee, but I make my own cashew milk every morning. And it's like a whole production for me. It's great. Oh, wow. A ritual, so to speak. What's the last book you finished? The Wedding People was really great. Let's write that down. One word to describe your leadership style.
02:30
Empathetic. Favorite app on your phone? Belment, of course. Podcast or audiobooks? Both. Always. Who's a professional role model for you? This is not a rapid fire question, Rona, because for me, being a professional in the games industry, there weren't a lot of women to look up to. So there are a lot of people that I admire, but I can't name someone in my industry that I specifically look up to.
03:00
All right. How about mountains or beach for vacation? Oh my gosh. Mountains in the winter, beach in the summer. Is that acceptable? Yeah, totally acceptable. I love that. One cause you're passionate about. I am really passionate about literacy and children, making sure that everyone understands how to read. And I'm also passionate about using animals to help make people feel better. Animal assisted therapy.
03:26
Yeah, I 100 % agree. Best career advice you've ever received? Say yes to opportunity. Say yes. I'm going to start, I'm going to write that down. And last question. What trend in the mobile gaming field excites you the most right now? Well, you can't really talk about trends in mobile gaming without talking about AI. So AI both frightens and terrifies me. I think there are a lot of advances that we could use to make our creativity, to accelerate our creativity.
03:56
but I also worry that AI is gonna take over some creative opportunities for people. I feel like we've learned so much during this rapid fire that I'm really excited for this conversation. So I'm gonna bring it way back a little bit and ask you, which I ask a lot of the guests that come on, before you started your professional career journey, did you consider yourself driven and when do you think that started with you?
04:20
I think I've always been driven. I've always wanted to get good grades. I always wanted to do well. I always knew that there was a purpose for me, but I wouldn't say that I was necessarily driven. I think once, once I figured out that I could be somebody that other women looked up to, then I became driven. I was like, I have a purpose now. You had that passion to kind of be an example, so to speak. It's interesting because you said you didn't really have, you couldn't point back to a specific
04:49
role model that feels like that's a driver for... Yeah. Yeah, totally. Working on game development, you know, in the early 2000s, which seems so long ago, there weren't a lot of women and there was, you know, maybe one or two people on a game development team. And there was a sort of feeling of like, well, I'm the woman on the game development team. So it's not, you know, there's not room for other people. And I would love to go back in time and like beat that Sarah up and be like, no, like the more you bring up...
05:17
the better. I feel like now it's really, I feel like it's my role to elevate other women, to help these scaffolding for other women, to bring other women up, especially in games. And so I just think it's really important to be that person and to be that role model. Yeah. And you mentioned that was around the time that you had gotten into
05:38
the gaming industry. Before that, did you, I know you said you saw some elements in yourself that like, yeah, I always wanted to get good grades, but it didn't really fully click until you were like, you know what, I want to make sure I'm also a beacon and a guide and build that scaffolding for other women. Before you got into the gaming industry, what was this, what was driving you then? Well, I really wanted to do nonprofit work.
06:04
So I was really driven by helping other people. I had interned at the American Cancer Society. I had interned at National Geographic. Because going to school in Washington, D.C., you have all of these amazing opportunities for internships. And I was really into how can I help make the world a better place? And then I also needed to pay my rent. And so then I was like, how can I make the world a better place through games?
06:28
And it took a really long time. There's so many great people out there doing games for change and really positive things with games. But for me, I think it's really about how can I create a more diverse opportunity, more diverse games, bring more diverse people into the creation of games. And so that's what that's what drives me now. I think what drove me then was like, how can I make a difference in the world? Yeah. And I feel like for a lot of smart, driven women, there is that
06:56
I don't want to say inherent, but it is kind of an inherent drive to be like, okay, what can I do to improve the world around me? What can I? How can I leave a mark? And like you, I started a nonprofit, you know, because I thought, you know, what better way to start impacting the world by giving back and working in nonprofit and really focusing on a very specific issue that I can make a mark in. How did you find yourself in gaming?
07:21
So I always like to say that I fell into games. I was in school in Washington and I really wanted to get out of the East Coast. I grew up in Nashville. Nashville was nowhere near as cool as it is now back then. And I moved out to San Francisco with no job, with no place to live. I was staying with my grandmother and I was looking for a job in PR. The only job I could find was PR for gaming. And I took that job and spent time learning about PR, learning about games, that company, that studio closed down.
07:51
I had a roommate whose girlfriend said, you know, I've got a role at Electronic Arts. Are you interested? And I said, yes, I'm interested in continuing to pay the rent. So I interviewed for that job, became an assistant producer at Electronic Arts and then have wound my way around the game industry ever since. And that was in 2001. 2001, I feel like that was, it wasn't that long ago, but it feels that long ago, especially with where...
08:18
gaming, you know, how far gaming has come, right? I mean, that was before mobile phones. Like, everybody had little Nokia cell phones at that time. You mentioned AI and gaming and we can kind of now, you know, see 2001, we didn't even have smartphones on the regular. had the brick Nokia play phone, play games on it, you play snake on it. play snake? Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, of course. And now you've got full on games on.
08:47
your smartphones. mean, these are like really you look at the graphics and you look at the storyline and you look at functionality in these games. They're AAA titles on mobile. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I love so much about mobile games. I spent a lot of my early career working on console and PC titles like The Sims 2, The Godfather, James Bond, Everything or Nothing, Spore. But what I love about mobile gaming is that it really democratizes gaming for people.
09:14
Everyone has a phone, not everyone has a PC or a console. So everyone can spend some time playing a game. And that is why I really love this platform because, you know, even if you have no interest in owning a console, you can spend five minutes playing and you can be social, you could learn something. There's such wealth. There's a tapestry of games that you could play on the mobile phone. You have four teenagers. Yes. Yeah. Do they think it's cool that mom is in the gaming industry?
09:43
Do they skip that way at all? they really think anything about what I do is cool. But... Good point. I mean, like, do you know how cool I am? Like my job, like... And they're just like, no, they're... And please don't use that word. You know, they're like, don't you... It's chill now, mom. It's chill. But yeah, no, they don't really think that. They're just like, can you drive me someplace? Yeah. They roll their eyes at me when I use the...
10:10
Mean Girls line. Oh my gosh. There's lots of eye rolling in my house. I'm not a regular mom. I'm a cool mom. they're like, oh, can you stop? None of us are cool to our own children. I'm kind cool to their friends though. Oh, nice. they're like, we have a bellman. My game has a partnership with Revolve, which is one of the leading fashion retailers in the world for Gen Z. And they are
10:36
everybody knows Revolve. And so I'm like, oh, when I partner with Revolve, they're like, oh yeah. And I'm like, oh yeah, and one of our advisory board members is Paris Hilton, Felicia Day. They're like, oh, we know who those people are. there's some adjacent coolness, but I am not cool to them. Yeah. But they know you work hard. They do know I work hard. And they're really respectful of that. And I love showing them that. And the pandemic was almost a gift in some ways. Of course, was horrible in many ways.
11:04
But in some ways it's a gift because they can see how hard I work. And now I can pick them up from school where I never could pick them up from school before because I worked from home. Going through, you know, parenting in the pandemic. And I mean, I can't I have three kids. I can't imagine with four kids. There was a lot of fighting. Oh, gosh. Where's the quiet room? You know, what can we do? But, you know, the pandemic in so many ways was like a horrific experience. So many lives were lost. It was just
11:34
time loss. feel like education wise, my children really suffered. But there were some really key positives for me. Like my kids came together, we were all like cleaning the house together, we were wiping off groceries together. We were, you know, making new recipes together. We spent like 10 hours making a birthday cake for somebody's birthday because we had the time. And we moved, we left San Francisco and moved to San Rafael to have more space. Now we have a backyard, which is fantastic.
12:01
But it really, in some ways, brought us together. And then they could really see, they could listen in on some of my calls and they're like, oh, mom does. She is kind of a boss. She doesn't just drive us to places. That's right. I am a chauffeur, cook, all of those things that moms are and dads are. But I also run a company. you think they see some similarities between how you run and organize your day?
12:31
coming out of the pandemic or even maybe in a day to day. And do they see kind of the parallels and maybe how that translates into, mom's not gonna like this or mom's not gonna want me to do it this way because I know who she is, I know how she runs. Or do you think they hear any of that or see any of that on the day to day? I think I don't. I think that they see CEO mom as work mom and regular mom as regular mom. But I am pretty regimented about what I do because I...
13:00
have to be four kids full-time job, two dogs that need to be walked. you know, exercise is so important. And so I really regimented about what I do. get up 5.45, I work out, I have breakfast, I make sure everybody has what they need. People are off to school, and then I'm sitting down to work. And my work hours have really changed. work from about 8 a.m. to about 3 p.m. now. And then if I need to, dabble at other...
13:28
other hours, but I try to have those meetings during that time so that when they're home, I can spend time with them, which I never could. I feel like they're early childhoods. I was commuting. I was not there. It was just like, mom wasn't here and now I am and I'm so much more present in their lives. And I feel like that's really amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard being a founder. It's hard building up a company and listening to you talk about, yeah, you've to be up at 5.30 AM, 5.45, get them out at the door.
13:55
get them out the door and then start to focus on you, focus on your impact now to the outside world. How important has that been to your own identity or was that never even like a consideration of like, oh yeah, no, this is who I'm gonna be. This is always who I'm gonna be. I don't think there's ever a, is always who I'm gonna be. think, you know, part of the whole...
14:20
experience of life, this journey that we're on is learning about ourselves and growing and pausing and recognizing that, you know, you're there's always something for you to learn, like no matter what. And you can learn something from unusual places. You can your kids teach you stuff. Your dogs teach you stuff. I think I'm not sure I really answered your question, though. No, no, that was great. I mean, I feel like, you know, a lot of women, especially when they are starting out,
14:50
in their career or maybe if they're taking a pause in their career, there is a lot of identity questions and issues I think that people sit with. Oh yeah. And it's always like, oh, but I was this, am I still this? Should I be this? Oh Even as young as eight, nine, I see it in my daughter, see it in my kids, know, where that identity sort of is like, well, is that me? Is that going to be me? And it's always, my answer has always been,
15:19
you let yourself grow. Your identity now doesn't need to be the same identity. Let yourself evolve. Let yourself learn. sure. I think that learning thing, that learning is so important. And I think there's that imposter syndrome as well in everything that we do. And for so long, I was like, I am a mom and I am making games and I am this person. But I think like letting, making space for other things like getting
15:47
nature time and spiritual time and creative time. It's really important in shaping who you are and learning to care less about what other people think. I feel like right now my 14 year old daughter is like, don't be seen with me, don't do anything embarrassing. Like I rolled down the window and I dropped her off and I shout, I love you. And she's like, other people are here. And I'm like, yeah, and you're gonna remember this when you're older. And I always shouted, I love you. But I mean, it's been a tough journey because, know,
16:15
being a woman in the games industry is tough. And I was laid off during my maternity leave. And this was 2009. And two months after I had my first baby, and I'm like, who am I? What am I? Am I a mom? And that whole like, difficulty and like wanting to be amazing. And they called me up, have a, nursing. And they're like, we're gonna have to let you go. And I'm, I was so, you know, in that new mom mode, I didn't know how to be a mom. Like I was having trouble nursing. Like I was trying to,
16:45
you know, get more than two minutes of sleep at a time. And they called and I was like, what am I now? Like, what's my identity? I've been this video game producer badass, and now I'm just, you know, somebody who doesn't have a job. And it was heartbreaking for me, even though, you know, prior to that, I'd gotten, you know, most stellar reviews, like you're, you know, and then they laid me off on my maternity leave. And I'm like, is this still happening in 2009? And like, a lawyer got involved and I was like,
17:15
I'm not a litigious person. I don't want to be this person. Now, of course, it would be different if I were laid off on maternity leave, I would eviscerate them. You learned so much in 10, 20 years as a woman of yourself in general. Totally. And it ended up being a blessing in disguise because I was laid off and I found a job about 10 months later. I got to spend that time with my son. And then about 10 months later, I found a job where they were like, you can work three days a week.
17:45
you can, you know, and then build back up to four days. And I had interviewed with another company and they were like, we love you, we want to hire you, but you can't work three days a week. And at that point I was like, I really want this for my kids. And so, you know what, going back to your other question, there is a woman named Carol who hired me at NG Moco who said, we love you. We think you're amazing. We think you're worth it. And we'll let you work for three days a week and build back up.
18:11
And no one else in my career has ever been like, yeah, you're worth it. And she took that chance on me. So Carol, yes, is somebody that I look up to as a role model. And that's you in the gaming industry now as the role model for other women who are trying to break into this field that is, I mean, not, you know, there's not a lot of women. It's predominantly men, I'm assuming. I mean, it's where we're so much better than we ever were. And there are so many opportunities for women to break in now, but it's not where it should be.
18:41
Yeah, yeah. How did you pull yourself out besides with, you know, besides Carol helping you, how did you kind of pull yourself out of that? Oh my gosh, like, what am I doing? What am I going to do? How do I even get back on the horse? Is this still me? What am I going to do in the future? Yeah, there was a lot of that for me because I really wasn't happy early on in my career because there was so much kind of uphill battling and feeling like I wasn't good enough. But I realized, you know, when I went back to work that
19:11
And this was the dawn of mobile games. Okay, this was 2009. We were just starting. I was at NG moco and I was having so much fun. I was getting to do creative things, working with really creative people and I was enjoying myself and I was making money and I was making money for the game. And I realized, Hey, I'm actually good at this. There's, do actually have something to give. And when you have a new baby, you're exhausted all the time and you do feel like an imposter and you do feel like.
19:37
when you leave your baby, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm the worst parent ever. And then when you leave your job, you're like, oh, I'm the worst employee ever. But none of that is true. Like you're giving, at least I was giving my best, but really it's about finding something creative that you do, being able to inspire and be inspired by other people. And I really found that, I really found my niche in mobile at that point. And I was like, this is amazing. This is something super fun. I am building something that other people are spending their time on.
20:05
And what a gift that is that somebody is willing to give you their time for something that you built, obviously with the team, but it's just, it's such a good feeling. And so that was really how I pulled myself out of there and kind of continuing to work with and be inspired by amazing creative people. Well, I'm glad you didn't quit. We wouldn't have Muus Collective if you did. Thank you. There are...
20:29
a lot of different challenges when you move from one role or identity in your life to another. And it doesn't get easier the older you get. I feel like there's just additional things that are put on your plate besides, you you're changing bodies and you're changing lifestyle and you're changing family and you're changing environment and pandemic and all of the above. What lessons learn can you share?
20:58
when you've moved from different phases of your life from a driven person in the mobile gaming world to a manager, to a mom, to an executive, to a founder, because as you're going through these changes and evolution in your life, I feel like there's always a different set of skills that you're gonna need for the next level and the next level and the next level and that learning.
21:25
process kind of starts over. Yeah, I think that's the key is you're always learning. And you're always learning from unexpected sources. And so I would say take that learning from anywhere you can. But also boundaries are really important. And this is something that I'm super firm about, like my boundaries with my time. It's really important when you're, you know, a mom or not a mom or a dog mom or cat mom or whatever you are, and an executive and a hardworking person.
21:52
to make time for yourself. like I said, setting time aside for like a meditation or a walk or some outside nature time or even just getting up and getting 10 minutes of sun on your face. For me, it's exercise and making sure I have my delicious coffee that I work so hard on and really setting boundaries with your time. Like I will not schedule meetings after three o'clock unless it's an emergency. I will not schedule meetings before seven unless it's an emergency because I want to have that
22:22
boundary for myself to be able to prepare myself mentally, emotionally and physically for the day to be able to exercise, to be able to take some deep breaths, to be able to set myself up for success. And then afterwards, I get exhausted. By the time three o'clock rolls around, I'm not my best self. And so I know that about me. So I take all my important meetings between eight and two. And then I do, you know, the work of the day that I have to do in between the meetings. But then after three o'clock, I give myself permission to just be like, OK,
22:51
This is not my most productive time. So I'm going to walk the dogs. I'm going to pick up the kids. And if I need to do something later in the day, I will. But I really set these hard boundaries for myself because I know what works for me. And I think learning what works for you and finding what works for you is really important in setting boundaries. And my calendar is blocked off. People know not to schedule me before or after. And, you know, that has worked so far.
23:16
You mentioned that your calendar is blocked off. And one thing that I've noticed about you is you're great at the boundary setting, but with the boundary setting comes really good systems behind you that you have to rely on. Otherwise those boundaries get crossed. One example is nobody gets on your calendar past three. Another boundary is making sure you're able to do your coffee in the morning or matcha or whatever it is, a time for yourself. What other sort of
23:47
systems you have in place to allow you to be such an amazing mom, executive, and passionate leader, an example for other women. Well, first of all, thank you. That makes me feel amazing. I should come do your podcast every day for this buildup of self-esteem. The calendar is key. The boundaries are key. But look, you cannot be a mom and an executive without help. I want to be very clear. We cannot, nor should we do it all.
24:16
In order to be great, rest is key. love to read. need to read like I'll read like, you know, a couple of books a week because that's my downtime. That's how I decompress. My husband is fantastic. I have a partner that, you know, does more than his share of the kids stuff, does all of the cooking. And I recognize how lucky I am. I'm the quartermaster of the house. I make sure we've got all the supplies that are needed and he'll cook. And that's amazing because I'm a terrible cook. I'm actually
24:46
I'm an okay cook, but I hate it so much. I have a full time nanny. Like, let's be clear about that as well. And like, I know that that's not available to everyone. And it wasn't available to me at the beginning either. But you know, and I have somebody that does the laundry for me, I have somebody that when they were little picked up my kids because I could not do it. And I feel like I say that with a little bit of shame and I'm recognizing the shame.
25:13
as well, it's like, but like, we should not pretend that we can do everything. Or be ashamed that you have the help. have the means and so I have the help. but I'm just like recognizing like, why do I feel ashamed to saying that? Like, I can't do it all. and without an amazing partner without this nanny who takes care of all of the things I wouldn't be able to do it. Like, I don't know how anyone could have kids and be an executive and do all of the household things.
25:41
I do a lot of the mental work of raising the kids though. Like I know when the doctor's appointments are, I know when the dentist, I know when they need to be scheduled, but I'm not always the one driving them and I'm not always the one picking up. And so having help anywhere you can get help just to carve out a little space for yourself is really important. I would say that that's probably the biggest thing that's helped me is besides the boundaries and the rituals, it's like figuring out what you can offload to somebody else, even if it's just, you know, an hour a week.
26:11
I can talk forever and a day about the help that executive women should have if they are to make the impact that they are making. I mean, it's funny that you say, I feel a little shame mentioning that. I don't think you're the only one. I feel a little shame mentioning sometimes that I do have help, but it's needed. Yeah, but look what you're doing.
26:38
It's, look at the impact you're having on the world. I'm gonna say the same thing about you. Thank you. It's like, why do I feel shame? I shouldn't at all. I'm giving someone else a job and I'm not doing the things that I would hate to do so that I can do something that's impactful. And I think women should not feel shame about not being able to do everything because there was this moment in time where it was like, I'm superwoman. I'm not superwoman, no one is. And if you have to pretend to be,
27:07
something is falling apart. Your mental health is falling apart. Your physical health is falling apart. And we as women need to prioritize our mental and physical health. We need to understand the things that are happening in our bodies, the changes. I didn't know what perimenopause was five years ago. Now I'm recognizing that it's actually impacting me on a day-to-day basis. And so how can I support myself through that?
27:30
And so that's again, the continual learning. And so I'm like, what do I need to support myself? How do I get the help that that's needed? You know, if it's medical, if it's emotional, if it's, you know, somebody to buy groceries for me, if it's paying in Stacart, you know, how can I get the help so that I can do my best work for my employees and also for my kids and my husband? Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, gosh.
27:57
Like I said, we could probably talk forever and a day about this topic. Yes. And there's just so many, so much to unpack there. In any case, I know this is a podcast with an end and it must have an end. Thank you so much for coming on. know, folks, for those of you who are listening, please connect with Sarah on LinkedIn.
28:21
But also Sarah, besides connecting with you on LinkedIn, how else can people find more about the work that you do and who you are and what's exciting to you? Well, I think number one, download Belmint from the App Store or the Google Play Store and spend some time having fun in a mobile fashion styling game. Our game launched globally in March and we have a partnership with Revolve. We have seamless fashion, styling and e-commerce so you can play with fashion.
28:51
And you can also, you know, buy things in real life or in the game. And it's really about having fun with fashion. And there's this stigma that games aren't for women and games aren't for girls and games aren't for, you know, older women, but they are like, we're all playing word. We're all playing words with friends. Those are games with people. People play the Sims. This is a game where you get to create yourself, create an avatar of yourself or somebody that you want to style. Do the hair, do the makeup, do the skin tone, do the face shape, do the eye color.
29:20
And then style yourself with clothes that are real that you can buy in real life. And it's super fun and it's a fun way to connect. So I would say download Bellman, play with Bellman, look me up on LinkedIn. I'm always looking for ways to help bring women up in the video game industry and in tech. Really what I'll repeat this because I love this phrase. I think women should be scaffolding for other women. How can we help bring other people up so that we have a diverse tapestry of voices in the industry?
29:49
people creating games, teams, and everyone will always be better if they are diverse. And having those diverse voices is so important. So I would leave you with that. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you for your insights. Thank you for your wisdom. Gosh, scaffolding for other women. I'm going to start using that. Do it. Again, Sarah, thank you for coming on. And folks, please download Bellman.
30:11
Connect with Sarah on LinkedIn and until next time. Thank you so much for having me Rona. It was an absolute pleasure talking to you. I feel like I've made a new friend on this podcast. Ditto, ditto.
