Silvan (00:00)
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Silvati's podcast.
So today on the podcast, I'm really excited to have a very dear friend of mine, Dr. Paris Capelton, who is a clinical psychologist and lecturer joining me today. And we are going to be talking about parentification and identity of black female clinical psychologists.
So thank you for joining me on the podcast, Paris.
Paris (00:24)
You're so welcome. I'm really happy to be here.
Silvan (00:27)
Now, I know we've known each other a while and I followed you through your training into becoming a clinical psychologist as well as watching all your social media posts about the doctorate diaries. So I'm so happy to finally get you onto the podcast to talk about this.
Paris (00:32)
Mm-hmm.
you know what, it's been a long time coming but I think, well I hope that what I had to share today is useful for someone whether that's from lived experience or whilst working with ⁓ patients in the sphere of health and wellbeing so yeah really excited.
Silvan (01:03)
Definitely. And when I was reading your research, I was really struck about how important this topic is. And we're going to introduce the topic properly, but not just how important it is for female, black female clinical psychologists, but for people from an ethnic minority as well.
Paris (01:20)
I I agree. I definitely focused on one specific group that is considered underrepresented. But if you look at the literature as it stands and just people's lived experience, it definitely affects many people, particularly those from global majority backgrounds. So yeah, it's really important.
Silvan (01:38)
Yeah, and so I wonder if you can introduce sort of the research that you have conducted and sort of what drew you to that both professionally but also on a personal level.
Paris (01:51)
You know what, it's a really good question and it's one that actually came up in my Viva. So a little bit triggering, but I'll start off with personally first, I would say I do have an older brother, but as the eldest daughter, so sort of second in line, I often found myself burdened by parentification experiences, eldest daughter responsibilities within the family unit.
This isn't an individual experience. think a lot of my friends who are also eldest daughters and people just online, you often see that there is this kind of way in which we show up in the world, really caring, overdoing, over-functioning for others and actually often self-neglecting, not having boundaries for ourselves. So I knew that this phenomenon was really important from my own lived experience, but just from my home girls and having conversations.
So I guess thinking about it from a more professional lens, most of us have heard of the wounded healer and it's this idea that sometimes our wounds and our
experiences of adverse experiences or trauma leads us into professions where we can almost right some of those wrongs that we experienced. This is very much seen in the therapeutic space, not just in therapists, but clinical psychologists, nurses, social workers, etc. The gap for me, however, was that black women specifically are often considered natural carers. There's this idea of the sort of strong black women schema.
And a big part of that is this ability to care for everyone. And it's almost normalized. So I thought this phenomenon is normalized within our communities, but it causes us so much impact negatively. Why not spotlight this and see, you know, if it is considered in the way that the West sees it, such as a pathology and, you know, burdens given to children too early. Or can we some to what look at this from a collectivist standpoint, such as
these individuals actually helping the family unit systemically and sort of creating that homeostasis. So that was just some of the things that came up for me as to why this topic and its importance. I mean, we'll talk about it later, but this idea of intersectionality is really important too, but I'll stop there for now.
Silvan (04:08)
No, you make such a good point. And I really like that you think about this from a macro level, from a societal systemic level, but you also bring it down to the individual. And I think that's where people are going to identify, not steal your title, but that's where people are going to identify with this. I mean, even if I can remind people of the title of your research, if that's okay, it's the role of parentification in the personal and professional identity development of black female clinical psychologists.
Paris (04:17)
Yes.
course.
Silvan (04:38)
Now, why do you think this is so under-researched?
Paris (04:41)
In the space of clinical psychology, I think there is an idea or a notion that we are trained to be able to provide a service, to be able to support the people that we're caring and supporting. There's a lot of focus externally and not a lot of focus internally on the individuals, their histories, their lived experience. And I know this differs to other courses. For example, in the UK, the counselling psychology doctoral course, it's mandatory that you have your own personal therapy.
In the clinical psychology doctoral course, that is not a given. It's entirely up to you whether you want to look at parts of yourself or not. And I think coming from, like I said, the perspective that I've come from, my background, my history, I just don't think we're blank slates. I think in every single interaction, we bring parts of ourselves into the room. So why not focus on the parts of us, our identity and what parts are showing up in clinical space, personally, professionally.
But also how those dynamics show up in systemic lenses, how we show up to supervision, what things we bring, what things we don't bring, how much sort of responsibility we feel like we have over the people we work for versus not, how much we feel able to say no and hold boundaries. These are all things that come out as an impact of not looking at ourselves or looking at some of those wounds and the way we've adapted to our environments. So, yeah, I would say it's more so around the training and what they focus on.
But I really hope that as my research sort of touches more audiences, people can really see the importance of focusing on the self whilst doing clinical training.
Silvan (06:22)
And you're so right. mean, parts of your identity and parts of yourself are going to be present in that therapeutic space. And by sort of not addressing it or trying to sort of push it to one side, it's almost neglecting what's happening within that therapeutic alliance in the room.
Paris (06:29)
Exactly.
Exactly. Just because we don't focus on something doesn't mean it's not playing itself out. In fact, I think when we neglect and we avoid certain parts, we often lose control over it. So, for example, I remember one of my participants, she spoke about feeling that she always had to go above and beyond for her patients, staying later doing particular forms, which wasn't necessarily in her job title, but because she kind of had that internal advocacy element to her.
No, it's not in my job title, but this is part of my responsibility. That was a norm for her. It was only when we kind of had the interview did she recognize that in many ways this was over-functioning. And perhaps her actually doing the work was maybe... ...disadvantaging the patient, because there are loads of people out there, there are particular advisors that this is their job and this is their remit. Why not signpost over to the professionals? We don't have to do everything.
We don't have to carry everything. And sometimes in doing that, like I mentioned, we actually end up reinforcing negative patterns or experiences. So I think that self-awareness and understanding and just the ability to have these conversations in these spaces is vital.
Silvan (07:57)
Yeah, and as you're talking, I can see a lot of me in that as well, where you do go above and beyond, and we're going to get into it a little bit later about the why, I'm sure. But I was wondering, for those people who are listening or watching and aren't familiar what the term parentification means, I wonder if you can break that down a little for us.
Paris (08:02)
Hehehehe
Hehehe
Mmm.
Of course. So it is quite an Americanized ⁓ term. So most people wouldn't have heard of it, but they may understand the dynamic that plays out. So I would define parentification as a role reversal between parent or caregiver and child in which the child ends up taking on the responsibilities that would normally be considered for an adult. So this can take the forms of two different ways. The first is emotional parentification.
This is our counsellors, this is our confidants, this is the children who mediate when there's family disputes, difficulties between parents. They really take that emotional load for the family
And the second way that it shows up is what they call instrumental parentification or also known as practical parentification. And this is more of those kind of practical labor responsibilities, including cooking, cleaning, handling finances. It could be language brokering for parents where English is a second language, but also helping siblings with things like homework and almost just almost being that role model. So that's how I would describe it.
There is a role reversal. So again, the child is expected to take on these roles, usually involuntary and often outside of their bandwidth of developmental responsibilities. So that's another thing. People often say, okay, well, what's the problem with children taking on chores or what's the problem with children being able to understand their emotional world or the emotional world of others? The problem with parentification is this experience is often done at a developmental level in which the child is not quite at yet.
So it's very overwhelming and harmful for the development of the child and young person.
Silvan (10:03)
Yeah, and so how young would be too young for some of these roles to be taken on? What did you find?
Paris (10:11)
Do you know what, it's a really good question and I definitely think that would vary depending on where we're looking at in the world. I'm from a Caribbean background and I know for a fact, children as young as five, you know, will be climbing mango trees to collect fruit for the family. That's considered normal and actually maybe somewhat of a confidence building ⁓ task, They're contributing to the family system. In England, where I live, if a child five years old was
climbing trees to collect apples for the family, I would be 100 % sure that social services probably would be good for things like sort of risk, danger, you know, all these things. So I think the first thing is that it really depends on where in the world we're looking at this. But also it really depends on the child and how the child is, what's the word?
interpreting this experience. That's a big part of parentification as well. In the literature, there's an element of whether a child considers what they're doing as fair or unfair. If a child considers it unfair, for example, if they're maybe seven years old and they're having to be cooking in the kitchen, rather than sort of playing with their peers, it would have a negative impact on them versus if a child maybe is seven years old and they're helping their parent in the kitchen with cooking.
and it's kind of almost supervised and it's again encouraging them or leaning into one of their hobbies, they would consider it a positive thing and that might not be considered parentification. So there's different aspects to it. I would say what would be generally considered helpful or useful development for a child, how much support they're getting. Remember a lot of the time parentified children don't get support. If anything, they are expected to problem solve and to do these things on their own.
And then lastly, how fair the child feels like these responsibilities are. We could have a child that's 15 and it's their main role to pick up their younger siblings from school. They might consider this completely unfair when all their friends are going to the park afterwards. And even though they're 15 and one might consider that an appropriate age, it's taking away from their development, know, their essence of being an adolescent and figuring out what roles they want to take out and play in the world. So it's quite nuanced, I would say. Yeah.
I say it's quite nuanced.
Silvan (12:36)
I really liked that you make that distinction between sort of, and when you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, me in the kitchen with my mom helping her cook, for example, but there's a very strong distinction between me helping her cook versus me being a young person having to cook for the rest of the family because nobody else was going to do it, for example. Yeah.
Paris (12:53)
Exactly. That part. Exactly that.
It's the responsibility that the person feels they have for this particular task.
Silvan (13:04)
And within the context of black families and communities, how is this parentification expressed?
Paris (13:10)
Firstly, I would often say it's intergenerational. So what you'll often find is that parentification is a cultural element that has been passed down. The clinical psychologists that I interviewed, majority of them had a mother who had also been parentified, a mother who had also been thrust into this role and these caregiving roles and responsibilities earlier than her time. So
If we see it as something that's been passed down, it's actually normalized. It's sometimes an expectation, particularly for the eldest daughter. So there's this idea that the eldest daughter is almost the additional parent, the additional helper of the family system. And this doesn't always have to be in single parent families. It can also be in families where there are two parents. But because of the gender differences and the idea again, generalizing here, but generally within sort of black communities,
women are the ones who take on particular roles, the cooking, the cleaning, the rearing of children. That then falls onto the eldest girl who almost supports their mother in these roles. I think it is important here to note that parentification also does impact men, but in a slightly different way often. So what we often find with parentification and young boys is there's this thing called spousification.
And spousification essentially is where the young boy may take on the role and responsibilities of meeting the mother's needs, where her needs might be neglected. This might often mean, that she's in a relationship with a partner who's emotionally unavailable or she's a single parent. So the young man is expected to kind of take on that role and responsibility as the second parent. This can also look like supporting the family financially as well.
less likely emotional for the family unit, but often at times for the mum. So I'm not saying that it doesn't affect men, it does. But with women, because of the intersectionalities of gender, of race in this instance, and the cultural understanding that women are supposed to do certain roles, it often falls on them more so. So yeah, within the family unit, it's something I would say that's normalized. It's often considered that, well, everyone has to do it, so what's the problem?
I do think at times it can be pathologized because I think there are a lot of skills that can come out of taking on these roles. A lot of leaders have this experience of being the eldest daughter. I know there's a lot of famous people that we know, Beyonce, Oprah, and many others who have also been the eldest daughter. And there's an element of success, right? There's this kind of drive and this ability to take care of everyone and everything.
The problem, however, is that then means that if there are any struggles, if there is any vulnerability, it's often overlooked and the parentified individual doesn't actually even feel like they have the space to be able to speak up. So there's a lot of suffering in silence. Recently, there's been a lot of research that has also suggested that black women are much more likely to experience autoimmune diseases. And I think a lot of this is from suppressed emotions and the inability to actually ask for support.
in life. So there's a lot of dynamics here that are unspoken and I do really hope that my research allows some of these things that are unspoken to become more of topics of conversation for people to say yes, even though this was my grandma's experience, even though this was my mother's experience and mine, it doesn't have to be my daughter's experience. I want to do things differently. I want to share, you know, the burdens of caregiving or whatever it is amongst all siblings so it doesn't fall so heavily on one.
Silvan (17:02)
I like that you talked about the difference between sort of parentification between young women and young men and how different they can be because in a way it's very much dictated by our society and the expectations that young men or young women will have because of just societal norms in a way.
Paris (17:15)
Most definitely.
Silvan (17:23)
and I agree that this burden mainly falls on women. and we can see that between generations. You talked a little about sort of how it can affect young people and it's very nuanced at what age, but I wonder how these sort of early caregiving roles then shape
that development of identity for young women or young girls, thinking about things like their self-worth, their responsibility, and how that can almost impact relationships later in life.
Paris (17:54)
Yeah, honestly, I get really excited when I think about this topic because the links are so clear. From an early age, if we have been socialized to care, to provide, to support, as we grow older, that almost becomes fused with our sense of self-worth. If I'm not caring for, if I'm not providing support, if I'm not taking responsibility, I am unworthy.
In developmental psychology, when we think about sort of adolescence, this is a period in which we're able to, or hopefully able to try on different roles, right? I remember when I was a teen, I worked in waitressing, I worked in retail, I did a little bit of social sort of care work. I had many hacks, right? I did many things. When you've been parentified, this opportunity is often robbed of you. And the reason why I say that is because when people are sort of going out and trying different things,
The parentified child is supporting the family unit. I'm just reflecting one of my participants. She was a black girl who went to a private school.
And she identified that on the weekends, most of her friends had gone horse riding and this was something she really wanted to experience. Instead on the weekend, the focus was on her supporting her mum to take her younger siblings to their extracurricular activities. She was completely dismissed and left behind because she wasn't considered or seen as a child. She was considered part of the adult unit.
I say all of that to say at the early stages of when we are identifying who we are, what we want to be in this world, parentification tells us essentially, you are a carer. You are the person that carries burdens for everyone else. You are the person that doesn't complain whilst doing these things, because if you do, then, you know, something goes wrong within the family unit. So we often find a linear pathway from being a carer early in life
to becoming a carer as our profession.
Silvan (20:00)
Yeah. And how would that sort of affect relationships later in life?
Paris (20:06)
Yeah, I definitely think it affects relationships later on in life. I think there's a lot of literature that suggests firstly, looking at romantic relationships, that eldest daughters who sort of have taken on this role of supporting people emotionally, but also practically, end up going for partners who they can also support in that way. So it's almost a way of living out, living out the roles that we took on in childhood.
unintentionally, of course, but if we think about the fact that if someone considers their sense of self-worth about what they can do for others and how they can care for others, then of course, they're going to need to support and care for a partner to feel loved, to feel needed and to feel worthy. This also plays out in friendships. People that are parentified are often the ones that do a lot of the planning.
are often the ones that kind of take a lot of responsibility to keep the friendship units together. The ones that are saying, hey, we haven't seen each other in a long time, let's go out. Relationships are not always reciprocal. For the parentified person, because they've learned these skills so early on, it comes really naturally to them, right? But that doesn't mean that it isn't having an effect. It doesn't mean that they are not navigating these relationships feeling like, if I don't come forward, if I don't do these things, no one will. So there's a lot of loneliness within
relationships, there's a lot of overcompensation within relationships and not to just focus on friendships and romantic relationships but also family units. are usually, I think the term on social media was like the family admin. So any family holidays, they are the ones booking everything, any family dinners, any events, they are the ones that are really taking on those administration duties. Again,
not asked for, but almost expected. So it really impacts their relationships. Lots of resentment for feeling that their needs are not being heard and not being met. And a lot of people pleasing, where we're kind of doing and supporting others, because again, that's our way of feeling validated, feeling needed. But ultimately, a lot of feeling unfulfilled in relationships where we don't necessarily have that confidence to ask for what we want and need. Because when we go back to childhood, there was no space to do that.
So almost there's this element of not updating what was once potentially helpful then. If you were the main responsible person to support the emotional needs of the family unit, there was no one to ask for support, right? You had to really sit in that yourself as a child. As an adult, however, very different territory. And often at times there isn't that updating in the identity. It's almost a continuation, which is also what I found in my research.
Silvan (22:50)
That's so interesting because I was thinking about how in a perhaps romantic relationship, how that might play out in the dynamic between somebody and their partner. And you talked about resentment and I can think of friends who I've talked to that are in relationships and specifically black female friends that I have and how normalized it is that they
Paris (23:15)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (23:19)
do everything. You talked about the planning, the executing, the child rearing, holding down a full-time job, dealing with work responsibilities when they come home, for example. I'm remembering a conversation I had with a friend just a couple of weeks ago, And objectively, you can step back and say, that's a lot, regardless, right?
Paris (23:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
too much.
It's too much. I think it is definitely too much. Just because someone can do it doesn't mean they should. And remember, again, I have to give credit where it's due. Eldest daughters, people who have experienced parentification, they can carry a lot, they can do a lot. And often at times they don't complain. But just because that's their experience doesn't mean it's right.
because they haven't learned or had the space to ask for their needs early in life, their needs often, if not always, go unmet. And people aren't as attuned to their needs as they are to others. Sometimes they don't even give people enough space to attune themselves to them. Because again, it's like, if I don't do it, no one's gonna do it.
A lot of this comes from threat-based socialization.
Silvan (24:38)
Tell me more about what you mean by threat-based socialization, please.
Paris (24:42)
Yeah,
so over my, again, research, I found that from the West's perspective, parentification is this pathology, it's this idea that children end up taking on the burden for parents who aren't able. This could be because parents are in the military, parents have their own mental health challenges, single parent households, et cetera.
In the black community, what we often see is parentification is an adaptive strategy to keep the family system going. So it's a survival mechanism. For example, there's something missing within the family unit. It might be someone who's emotionally attuned, or it could be someone who is practically able to do certain things. Let's say, for example, it is a single parent household and the mom is working a nine to five.
This then means that there may be issues when the children come home from school with food and just other things like someone being there to support. The eldest child, usually the eldest daughter, ends up stepping in to keep the system going. So in many ways, it was necessary for the survival of the family. So as much as we can kind of pathologize it, this individual stepped in to keep things afloat.
When we think about sort of systemic therapy, it's this idea that we need homeostasis within systems, right? The parentified child is very vital to the family system and unit. So I would often see and consider their behaviors as adaptive. Threat responses in some way. My parents can't take on these burdens. It's been placed on me. I have a responsibility to take on these burdens. If I don't, no one else will.
So it's really coming from this kind of place of threat. If I don't know when else will, I have to. And then when I think about it, I often see it from a lens of compassion focus therapy, which focuses on these kind of free emotional drive systems. So you've got the drive system, which is all about pursuing, goal setting, doing. You've got the threat system, which is about avoiding harm and danger. And you've got the soothe system. In the parentified child,
The threat system is huge. The drive system is huge because there's so much doing and so much that needs to be done. And their Sue system is often non-existent. There's no space to sit to be content, to even sort of regulate one's nervous system. So if we learnt that early on, it was to protect us in some way. What good would it have been if a parentified child was sitting in their Sue relaxing?
when there's younger siblings who haven't eaten, when there's a mum who's really stressed out about how she's going to make ends meet, you know, constantly switched on to the family unit and to everyone else's experiences of, need to do things, I need to make things shake, otherwise everything will fall apart. It's a heavy burden, but it does come from survival.
Silvan (27:48)
really like that you talk about that soothed system. You know, I love my CFT. In fact, we did that together actually. I like that you touch on it because I can imagine and I'm trying to sort of remove my lens as a man as well. And for those of you who aren't watching, I come from an Indian heritage. So I'm really aware of the lens that I'm bringing into this and trying to sort of step out of that. But I can imagine, you know,
Paris (27:51)
Yes, we did.
Mm.
Silvan (28:17)
for a lot of people not engaging in that soothe, but also not being taught how to engage in that soothe so that when you're at home and I can imagine like a parent coming home, like if you were seen to be relaxing, it's like, what are you doing? Why are you relaxing? Why aren't you doing this?
Paris (28:25)
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly. And a lot of the women that I interviewed said that. In fact, not even just not being taught or it being kind of disregarded, modelled. Their parents didn't model Soothe. Their parents didn't have hobbies. Their parents didn't sit down and have a cup of tea from coming in from work. A lot of their parents had a second job. A lot of their parents went straight into caregiving and supporting the family unit. They never saw what it looked like to activate Soothe.
And when they did try and sit down and relax, like you said, it was like, actually, you've got things to do. I'm gonna misquote this slightly, but one of my participants actually said, as a black woman, she was discouraged to have fun or to sit with joy because, quote, her mom said, when you get older, you're not gonna have space for that. So it's better that you don't get used to that now, and it's better that you get used to the roles that you will be playing, which is taking care of the family unit.
So that was actually what she was told verbatim. Black women are not afforded joy, are not afforded rest, because these are not things that you're gonna have as a woman. So get with the program now.
Silvan (29:48)
Wow.
That's huge. Gosh, I'm taking a moment just to take it actually in because imagine being a child and being told this isn't your life. You don't get to do this. You don't deserve this. You don't get to want this later.
Paris (29:59)
Yeah.
exactly.
Mm-hmm. There's no space for this in your life.
Silvan (30:16)
Yeah. And I'm thinking about, you know, experiences of on conversations with my friends and a lot of what you're saying resonates, you know, with me, but also in conversations that I've had with friends of mine, especially, you know, in preparation for this conversation.
And I wonder if any of these experiences, you know, cross over to different cultures.
Paris (30:39)
absolutely. I think within certain cultures, so I remember doing a research project on the Chinese community and we came across this word called filial piety, which is where the children are expected to support the elders and that is just kind of what's seen culturally. I think this kind of early caregiving and supporting the family unit comes up in many collectivist communities. But like I mentioned, it's often framed differently.
and seen differently, it can be seen sometimes as a form of virtue, a form of giving back, a form of supporting and providing and doing what's right for the family unit. And this can, like I said, be considered and seen in sort of Asian communities, which we do see it. I would say the difference perhaps in black communities is the way in which it's honored and valued and the meaning attached to it.
even though in some instances it can be seen as a virtuous thing, that I would say is less likely and it's more so seen as this is an expectation. This isn't something that's going to make you more kind of, guess, respected within the society. This is just an expectation for you. So, yes, it isn't just for our, for my community.
impacts, particularly when we come to the West, it impacts most migrant communities. Because again, when we think about parentification from, I guess, a collectivist or systemic lens, it's the idea that there's something missing in the family unit and this child has to step in and take over that. So even if that's in the ability to communicate where English is a second language, the child steps in to support with that.
So, yeah, my answer is yes.
Silvan (32:35)
Yeah, and as you were talking, I was just thinking about, you know, my friends and my Asian or Indian sort of of Indian heritage friends from back home. And even the way they were brought up and the way they were sort of socialized, it was like, you know, you're the dutiful daughter. You take on these responsibilities, you know, how are you going to get married if you can't cook? Those are conversations that I still had now. And
Paris (32:59)
Mm-hmm.
Most definitely.
Silvan (33:03)
And even when, because we are living in a society where our parents are sort of aging, but also there are health complications with sometimes with aging. And it's my friends who are caring for their older parents exclusively, the boys or the male siblings. I don't think they're doing it to the same extent, if I'm honest, but my female friends are expected to do it, but also they step up and do it.
Paris (33:08)
Mmm.
No. No.
Silvan (33:31)
before they've even been asked. They almost anticipate what's going to happen. And they're three steps ahead. The boys are just like, just tell me what you want me to do. Okay, do you want me to take mom to the hospital? I'll do it. It's like, no, no, you should know that there's an appointment next week. Just step up and do it.
Paris (33:36)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Exactly. And I think, like you said, that almost waiting to do it without being asked is because they've often seen their parents do the same. Mum just stepped up and looked after grandparents without being asked. It actually touches on to one of my themes, actually. One of my themes was the cost of being the good girl. And when I talk about the good girl and goodness, like you mentioned, it is about being compliant. It is about doing all the things that society says one should do. It's about not complaining.
It's about putting other people's needs first. And a lot of the time, parentification leads to us being the good girl. I've got to do the right thing because actually by me rebelling or doing things that would help me to explore parts of myself, I would be causing friction and harm to the family unit. The parentified child is a significant part of the family unit. So I need to stay in line and do these things to cause as less friction as possible.
but also to make sure that things stay afloat.
Silvan (34:48)
Yeah, yeah, that's so true. It is, but it's so important to be able to have a conversation like this because I'm sure it's going to resonate with a lot of people, whether they're from the black community or whether they're female or not. I think it's such a human value that people are going to identify with. I wonder if there were other themes that came out through your research that, you know, stuck with you.
Paris (34:50)
Very heavy.
most definitely.
I would say I named it intergenerational responsibility and internalized roles. And essentially this is all about caregiving becoming part of a sense of someone's identity and self-worth. If I'm not caring for others, who am I?
If I'm not clinical psychologist, which essentially is a form of caring, who am I? So people really become fused and enmeshed with these roles outside of work, but also inside of work, right? It's this element of responsibility and identity that's been formed. I found this particular theme really interesting because I think it spoke to the kind of unspoken ⁓ expectations.
that are placed on parentified individuals. This is just who you are. And actually there's never been any space for you to explore any other sides of yourself. So if this is the side of you that's been strengthened the most through repetition, then surely this is what I should be doing. So when you think about jobs, this is what I'm known for. This is what I'm good at. So of course I'm gonna go into the caring profession. Of course I'm gonna be a therapist. Of course I'm gonna be a psychologist or a nurse or a teacher.
Silvan (36:29)
And to follow up to something you just said, you said, if I'm not caring, who am I?
Paris (36:35)
Mmm.
Silvan (36:35)
I
think that really stuck with me because I imagine for a lot of people that that becomes their identity, but that's also all they know. And not to sort of diminish that experience, it becomes almost this, it's a solace. It becomes almost a gratifying part of that identity. It's almost like I'm the carer. I can do this and I do it better than other people.
Paris (36:57)
Yes.
Yes.
You're really hitting on something because again, I'm thinking about one of my sub themes which was when caregiving becomes self-validation. So actually, yes, what was perhaps thrust upon someone early in childhood becomes part of their identity, then becomes part of something that they need to protect. So I remember one of my participants saying, actually, I know how to do things better than others. Actually, someone caring for me,
threatens my identity. So dismissing care, dismissing support because it threatens my identity and it undermines what I know I'm able to do. So yeah, in some ways it can become a little bit malignant in that actually people end up finding themselves in positions in which they can care for others. And unintentionally,
enabling some people in their lives. So I think about mothers who have been parentified and have been so used to that care, caregiving sort of responsibility. They may enable their adult children. They may do so much for the adult children that their adult children actually don't learn the skills and tools necessary to be a fully functioning adult. Because if we're not a fully functioning adult in our own right, we have to come back to you for caring. So we end up validating that part of you.
So sometimes again, things actually caused us harm, actually we can end up causing harm to other people. Isn't it interesting?
Silvan (38:36)
Right? Because in a way, I don't, and I'm speaking hypothetically here, of course, but if I don't allow my child to become a fully functioning adult out in society, they still need me. They maintain that closeness with me because there is a dependency. So actually I don't feel quite as lonely then.
Paris (38:54)
Mm-hmm.
You still get to keep your identity of the caregiver. That's it.
Silvan (39:01)
right?
And so when I was reading your research, many of your participants sort of described their work as a continuation of that childhood caregiving. How did they show up in their professional identity?
Paris (39:10)
Mm. Mm. ⁓
I would say the first way it showed up was this essence of being attuned, building really strong rapport and relationships, being able to almost know what someone's experiencing without them saying it. These aren't skills that they learned through clinical training. These were skills that were learned in early childhood.
So one of the sub themes I called clinical instincts born from survival. The idea that these clinicians are so good with people is because they had to be in childhood, right? So essentially there's this kind of link between I was a carer early on in my life. This wasn't necessarily validated, but now as a clinician and as this being part of my job.
this is validated, not just through pay, but me being able to support those who may have been in situations that I was once in. One of the things I noticed was that a lot of the psychologists ended up working in areas that linked to their wounds. So one ⁓ witnessed domestic abuse between her father and her mother, and she ended up working in prison, which a lot of women are in prison for.
fighting back against abusers. Another one where she felt as though she was, she called herself the first mother. So she was so responsible for the family unit. Her mom was second. She was the first mother and the family would make jokes about that. She worked in CAMS. So she worked with young people. And she often spoke about wanting to be and wanting to show up in these young people's lives in a way that people didn't.
someone never showed up for her. So this kind of care as continuation, there was something about showing up to mend wounds through mending other people's wounds. But also a lot of these skills that we really honor and value as clinicians being built early in their lives, not through training. So things like compassion that was built through their experiences early in life.
one lady said, actually, I learned compassion from my grandmother, the way she would care for the family unit and everyone involved. This wasn't a clinical skill that I learned on a doctoral program. So yeah, that was a really interesting theme.
Silvan (41:52)
Yeah, and in a way it's almost like these women that you spoke and interviewed are almost returning to these areas, like you said, as the adult that they needed when they were a child.
It's so interesting how it of circles back. And in a way, I imagine it's almost like repairing part of that inner child self.
Paris (42:10)
Exactly.
Most certainly, it's definitely reparative work for sure. Being able to provide for someone what you didn't get doesn't just heal them, it heals something inside of you, that inner child.
Silvan (42:33)
Yeah.
And Paris, I'm wondering what it was like for you.
you know, both emotionally and also practically to interview black female clinical psychologists about these sort of childhood experiences that they were having.
Paris (42:52)
In many ways, it was reparative for me. I think providing ⁓ these clinical psychologists with the space to explore some of their early experiences in a way perhaps that they hadn't spoken about with anyone else, because like I mentioned, in our communities, it's considered a norm and a lot of people experience it. So, you know, what gives us the right to talk about how some of these experiences have maybe infected us negatively? It really allowed them to have that space.
But more importantly, it really shone the light on just how much the choice to become a clinical psychologist wasn't often a choice at all. Some of them actually sat and said, wow, if I hadn't gone through this early in life, would I have actually been a therapist? Would I have actually have been a clinical psychologist? Perhaps not.
So just allowing that opportunity for people to reflect and think about things in ways maybe they hadn't done was really ⁓ nourishing for me. I would be considered a sort of insider researcher because I also had similar lived experience and where I was focusing on the lived experience of my clinicians, it was very important that I made sure that I kind of held my experience, my assumptions and my biases, allowing them to kind of sit in their own experience.
That was definitely challenging. I would say a lot of what they were saying resonated with me and I kind of had to kind of hold the thought of saying, you know, I resonate with this and I experienced this. But even though that might be the case, it's different because they have a different lived experience. They're coming from a different walk of life. A lot of them had been qualified many more years ahead of me. There were many differences. So whilst I was kind of going through the interview process, I had to constantly remind myself that.
Yes, there are similarities, but there are also these divergences and to hold two of these truths in mind. At times, it often did feel like a therapeutic space because like I mentioned, the topics are very heavy, they're very heartfelt and they're very real. And a lot of these women were still carrying out this over-functioning, still carrying out this self-silencing within the workplace.
So not just seeing this as this is something we experienced and we're talking about it from a sort of historic lens. Actually, this is our lived reality now. I'm really sorry I'm late to the interview. I stayed back late from work. So there was something about actually seeing what the impact looks like long-term and how it still shows up in someone's life and affects them. It was definitely a journey. I definitely leant on supervision heavily.
I journaled throughout. It was really important for me to kind of reflect on my own lived experiences and what was coming up for me. ⁓ But it was definitely an experience.
Silvan (45:49)
Yeah, and in a way, I'm curious as to ask, you know, what that looked like for you as a researcher. You talked about having, you know, you were very much in that researcher stance, but almost seeing this women and seeing these women so far into their career and looking at what their role is now or how it's expressed now, did any of it sort of give you an idea of what you'd like to be or what you wouldn't like to be as a black female clinical psychologist?
Paris (45:59)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Silvan (46:19)
purchase.
Paris (46:19)
Oh,
for sure, for sure. I'm even just thinking about the kind of analysis process. It took me a good couple of weeks to get into it because it was so heavy and a lot of it did really sort of touch close to home. I would say as a researcher, I felt very honored to have listened to these stories and I felt it was my responsibility to handle them with care, to make sure that I was shining light on these lived experiences. So there was a little bit of a burden for me.
one in which I fully accepted. Also, because this was an area that hadn't been researched since, I felt like it was my responsibility to really do it justice and to show that there is an area here that has been under research, but is also directly impacting clinicians, burnout, one's inability to have job satisfaction. So was really important for me to see how far people had come, what parts of that parentification
caregiving responsibilities they let go, which parts they still kind of held on and the impact that had on their lives long term. As it pertains to me, on my journey as a clinical psychologist, 100%, I remember working in my early career and engaging in a lot of these behaviors, staying at work later to finish notes under the guise of if I do it now, you know, I'll feel lighter tomorrow, but there's always more work tomorrow.
It's something like having a really important family event, but feeling like I didn't want to let down my colleagues, maybe if I was running a group. So going to that family event late and showing up to work, putting other people's needs before my own, I really noticed how my early experiences had really fed into how I showed up as a clinician. But also just things like how we show up in the room, right? What kind of modalities we find ourselves more drawn towards and not so much.
A lot of the clinical psychologists said, even though CBT is a sort of foundational modality within clinical training, it wasn't their first focus. And actually their first focus was on that humanistic perspective, that being with that relational building. And that comes from early life, you know, that kind of ability to build strong relationships very quickly, to see someone, hear someone, to understand someone is a skill that's just innately there.
And all of the other therapeutic stuff they considered was secondary. I felt the same as well. I love my therapeutic toolbox, but I would always say the first step for me as a clinician is being with someone in the room with them, human to human. So yeah, that's what I would say.
Silvan (48:59)
It's so interesting how almost like, and I'm using the word elders in a very sort of symbolic way, but we still learn from the elders, right? Yeah. And you talked about sort of a lot of these participants that you interviewed, you know, had obviously gone through the clinical doctorate training program and a lot of the qualities that they possessed as clinicians and therapists, you know, preceded
a lot of that training because it was inherent in them anyway. but I'm wondering what clinical doctorate programs can do to better support specifically black women who carry these histories of parentification, you know, going into these clinical practices and spaces.
Paris (49:45)
I would say the first thing is about recognising the histories that each individual brings into the room. From a practical lens, from an academic lens, a lot of our experience is the same. You know, we've worked in similar jobs, we've maybe done similar research elements, know, service evaluations, audits. But what makes us different is our histories and our stories.
And I would say it's really important for programs to make more space for that, particularly for black women. Another thing that I often found in training was this idea of confidence versus performative competence. So black trainees often show up very confidently. I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm okay. If I need your support, I will come and ask.
It's important for supervisors not to see that as amazing, the perfect trainee, right? Because one might say a parentified child is the perfect trainee. It's important for supervisors to see this potentially as performative competence. Maybe I don't have it all together. Actually, I'm training. There should be elements where I don't know what I'm doing and I should be able to kind of make mistakes. When we think about the early experiences, there was no room to make mistakes.
These children weren't competent, but they couldn't make mistakes. We see perfectionism, we see doing things and having to be right. And supervisors just see that as great. That's an element of my job done for me. Be curious, ask questions. Okay, it seems like you're doing really well here, but I want to take a step back and think about how much of this might be you performing? How much of this might be you feeling like this is an expectation of you to have it all together?
to say the right things, to achieve clinical outcomes with particular clients, things of that nature. So just to be more curious in their stance. My final point I would say is just to be aware of emotional labor and the fact that it often shows up sort of quite subtly within individuals. How much burden are these clinicians taking on? How much do they support?
other clinicians who are from global majority backgrounds. There's this kind of thing that I noticed about this kind of silent unpaid mentoring that people from global majority backgrounds often provide for other trainees or other junior members of staff. They're doing this because they know representation matters, but this is unpaid work. So I think it's important that supervisors or senior leadership see that this work is very important and to almost kind of give a bit of space and time
within someone's diary to count for it.
Silvan (52:46)
Gosh, that last point really hit me because I can think of so many mentors that I even worked with that were from, you know, minority backgrounds. And a lot of the time there was no money involved. They did it because they wanted to. But you're right, they should have been paid for the work. They should have been paid for their time.
Paris (52:58)
Mm-hmm.
for their time, or at least consider that this is a good use of time. So maybe, you you get to take a little bit of time back here, or maybe that's one less client, because this work is very heavy. And like you, I've been mentored by many in this space, and I've also mentored many. And it's something that we don't necessarily ask to sort of be considered as like a badge of honor, we do it because we care. But systems need to know that actually,
is someone's time. How can we allow this person to reclaim some of that time?
Silvan (53:44)
And so I'm wondering, Paris, how does your research now inform how specifically Black clinical female psychologists are working in the workplace?
Paris (53:54)
I mean, I would hope that it would allow them to have the permission to push back, to say no to responsibilities that are not within their remit or perhaps someone else could do. I would really hope that it would allow them to actually take their annual leave because this element of guilt for letting people down is very real and it leads to people sometimes completely missing their annual leave deadlines.
But more from a professional standpoint, I would hope that it gives people that kind of encouragement that being with a client in the room, not necessarily having to have the best skills and all of these things is enough, that they are enough as clinicians. And I would really hope that it allows people to start to unwind their identity with what they do. Being able to say, okay, this is what I do and I'm great at what I do.
But what other things do I do versus actually who am I? Who do I want to be as an individual, not based on just what I do professionally? So I would love that. I would love to see more black psychologists really lean in and pour into other sides of themselves. You really lean in and pour into rest, restoration, fun, play, their own boundaries.
not always kind of holding on to advocacy, you know, working, going above and beyond a lot of black clinicians, they have their nine to fives in the NHS, and they do loads outside. And I think that's great. But I also think there's something there about our sense of self-worth and identity being tied up to helping and giving back. What about helping ourselves and giving back to ourselves pouring into our cups? So
not so much, I guess, like practical tips, because I think those therapeutic tips are all there, but more so about how they can be more functional in these spaces, limiting burnout, limiting this idea that everything has to be perfect, and just allowing themselves to be human, allowing themselves to make mistakes like other clinicians do, and not feeling the fear that they'll be penalized for it, and releasing some of that guilt that shows up.
Silvan (56:14)
And I really think that comes across in your message, in your research and the way you talk and the way you deliver, you know, this quite important research that you've actually conducted and in an area that it doesn't always show up. So it's so important to represent these areas. I'm wondering if you can point any listeners to resources, for example, where they can, I don't know, watch or read if...
Paris (56:25)
Thank you.
Hmm.
Mm.
Silvan (56:42)
They're interested in this and they want to learn a bit more.
Paris (56:45)
For sure. So definitely my research paper, if you type the title into Google, it will come up. So I'm just going to say the title again. It's the role of parentification in the personal and professional identity development of black female clinical psychologists. I would also say ⁓ organizations such as Home Girls Unite. This is a community organization that is tailored towards eldest daughters.
They provide a podcast, provide community groups and just overall support for people who have been burdened with this caregiving responsibility ahead of their time.
And if you're an academic at all, I would encourage you to read Djokovic's paper. It's actually a book now and it's called Lost Childhoods, The Plight of the Parentified Child. There's so much in that book and it actually initially came out in 1997. So reading it myself and seeing that a lot of these ways in which parentification impacts people still remains today.
just goes to show that we really need to continue having these conversations and breaking some of these cultural things that have been normalized, aren't as helpful as perhaps maybe they once was or needed to be.
Silvan (58:07)
And I'll certainly put some of those links in the names in the description box so people can find them later.
Silvan (58:12)
speaking of finding you Paris, where can people find you? And what have you got coming up that people can tune into?
Paris (58:19)
One thing that I do have coming up is a webinar I've called The Sweet Spot. So this is a clinical psychology interview masterclass. And this is to support anyone who is interested in the journey of becoming a clinical psychologist, but more importantly, for those who are currently applying. So it's interview season at the moment, which is exciting. So this workshop is going to be on the 26th of March. That's a Thursday evening.
from seven to eight thirty. So if you're someone that could benefit from getting the inside scoop, I've been on both sides. I've been in the interview seat and I've also interviewed. I would love to see you there.
Silvan (58:56)
That's amazing and I know so many people who would be interested in that, so thank you for doing that, genuinely.
Paris (59:05)
You're welcome, I'm looking forward to it.
Silvan (59:07)
Yeah. And Paris, thank you so much for just spending the hour talking to me. I've had so much fun. Like we've known each other for such a long time, but it's been such a good space to be able to talk about parentification and really understand what the implications of that are.
Paris (59:25)
Thank you so much. agree. think I really appreciate this platform and being able to showcase the work that I've worked on for nearly two years. It's really lovely to do it with a dear friend. So yeah, thank you again.
Silvan (59:38)
Thanks Paris.
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Silvati's podcast.
So today on the podcast, I'm really excited to have a very dear friend of mine, Dr. Paris Capelton, who is a clinical psychologist and lecturer joining me today. And we are going to be talking about parentification and identity of black female clinical psychologists.
So thank you for joining me on the podcast, Paris.
Paris (00:24)
You're so welcome. I'm really happy to be here.
Silvan (00:27)
Now, I know we've known each other a while and I followed you through your training into becoming a clinical psychologist as well as watching all your social media posts about the doctorate diaries. So I'm so happy to finally get you onto the podcast to talk about this.
Paris (00:32)
Mm-hmm.
you know what, it's been a long time coming but I think, well I hope that what I had to share today is useful for someone whether that's from lived experience or whilst working with ⁓ patients in the sphere of health and wellbeing so yeah really excited.
Silvan (01:03)
Definitely. And when I was reading your research, I was really struck about how important this topic is. And we're going to introduce the topic properly, but not just how important it is for female, black female clinical psychologists, but for people from an ethnic minority as well.
Paris (01:20)
I I agree. I definitely focused on one specific group that is considered underrepresented. But if you look at the literature as it stands and just people's lived experience, it definitely affects many people, particularly those from global majority backgrounds. So yeah, it's really important.
Silvan (01:38)
Yeah, and so I wonder if you can introduce sort of the research that you have conducted and sort of what drew you to that both professionally but also on a personal level.
Paris (01:51)
You know what, it's a really good question and it's one that actually came up in my Viva. So a little bit triggering, but I'll start off with personally first, I would say I do have an older brother, but as the eldest daughter, so sort of second in line, I often found myself burdened by parentification experiences, eldest daughter responsibilities within the family unit.
This isn't an individual experience. think a lot of my friends who are also eldest daughters and people just online, you often see that there is this kind of way in which we show up in the world, really caring, overdoing, over-functioning for others and actually often self-neglecting, not having boundaries for ourselves. So I knew that this phenomenon was really important from my own lived experience, but just from my home girls and having conversations.
So I guess thinking about it from a more professional lens, most of us have heard of the wounded healer and it's this idea that sometimes our wounds and our
experiences of adverse experiences or trauma leads us into professions where we can almost right some of those wrongs that we experienced. This is very much seen in the therapeutic space, not just in therapists, but clinical psychologists, nurses, social workers, etc. The gap for me, however, was that black women specifically are often considered natural carers. There's this idea of the sort of strong black women schema.
And a big part of that is this ability to care for everyone. And it's almost normalized. So I thought this phenomenon is normalized within our communities, but it causes us so much impact negatively. Why not spotlight this and see, you know, if it is considered in the way that the West sees it, such as a pathology and, you know, burdens given to children too early. Or can we some to what look at this from a collectivist standpoint, such as
these individuals actually helping the family unit systemically and sort of creating that homeostasis. So that was just some of the things that came up for me as to why this topic and its importance. I mean, we'll talk about it later, but this idea of intersectionality is really important too, but I'll stop there for now.
Silvan (04:08)
No, you make such a good point. And I really like that you think about this from a macro level, from a societal systemic level, but you also bring it down to the individual. And I think that's where people are going to identify, not steal your title, but that's where people are going to identify with this. I mean, even if I can remind people of the title of your research, if that's okay, it's the role of parentification in the personal and professional identity development of black female clinical psychologists.
Paris (04:17)
Yes.
course.
Silvan (04:38)
Now, why do you think this is so under-researched?
Paris (04:41)
In the space of clinical psychology, I think there is an idea or a notion that we are trained to be able to provide a service, to be able to support the people that we're caring and supporting. There's a lot of focus externally and not a lot of focus internally on the individuals, their histories, their lived experience. And I know this differs to other courses. For example, in the UK, the counselling psychology doctoral course, it's mandatory that you have your own personal therapy.
In the clinical psychology doctoral course, that is not a given. It's entirely up to you whether you want to look at parts of yourself or not. And I think coming from, like I said, the perspective that I've come from, my background, my history, I just don't think we're blank slates. I think in every single interaction, we bring parts of ourselves into the room. So why not focus on the parts of us, our identity and what parts are showing up in clinical space, personally, professionally.
But also how those dynamics show up in systemic lenses, how we show up to supervision, what things we bring, what things we don't bring, how much sort of responsibility we feel like we have over the people we work for versus not, how much we feel able to say no and hold boundaries. These are all things that come out as an impact of not looking at ourselves or looking at some of those wounds and the way we've adapted to our environments. So, yeah, I would say it's more so around the training and what they focus on.
But I really hope that as my research sort of touches more audiences, people can really see the importance of focusing on the self whilst doing clinical training.
Silvan (06:22)
And you're so right. mean, parts of your identity and parts of yourself are going to be present in that therapeutic space. And by sort of not addressing it or trying to sort of push it to one side, it's almost neglecting what's happening within that therapeutic alliance in the room.
Paris (06:29)
Exactly.
Exactly. Just because we don't focus on something doesn't mean it's not playing itself out. In fact, I think when we neglect and we avoid certain parts, we often lose control over it. So, for example, I remember one of my participants, she spoke about feeling that she always had to go above and beyond for her patients, staying later doing particular forms, which wasn't necessarily in her job title, but because she kind of had that internal advocacy element to her.
No, it's not in my job title, but this is part of my responsibility. That was a norm for her. It was only when we kind of had the interview did she recognize that in many ways this was over-functioning. And perhaps her actually doing the work was maybe... ...disadvantaging the patient, because there are loads of people out there, there are particular advisors that this is their job and this is their remit. Why not signpost over to the professionals? We don't have to do everything.
We don't have to carry everything. And sometimes in doing that, like I mentioned, we actually end up reinforcing negative patterns or experiences. So I think that self-awareness and understanding and just the ability to have these conversations in these spaces is vital.
Silvan (07:57)
Yeah, and as you're talking, I can see a lot of me in that as well, where you do go above and beyond, and we're going to get into it a little bit later about the why, I'm sure. But I was wondering, for those people who are listening or watching and aren't familiar what the term parentification means, I wonder if you can break that down a little for us.
Paris (08:02)
Hehehehe
Hehehe
Mmm.
Of course. So it is quite an Americanized ⁓ term. So most people wouldn't have heard of it, but they may understand the dynamic that plays out. So I would define parentification as a role reversal between parent or caregiver and child in which the child ends up taking on the responsibilities that would normally be considered for an adult. So this can take the forms of two different ways. The first is emotional parentification.
This is our counsellors, this is our confidants, this is the children who mediate when there's family disputes, difficulties between parents. They really take that emotional load for the family
And the second way that it shows up is what they call instrumental parentification or also known as practical parentification. And this is more of those kind of practical labor responsibilities, including cooking, cleaning, handling finances. It could be language brokering for parents where English is a second language, but also helping siblings with things like homework and almost just almost being that role model. So that's how I would describe it.
There is a role reversal. So again, the child is expected to take on these roles, usually involuntary and often outside of their bandwidth of developmental responsibilities. So that's another thing. People often say, okay, well, what's the problem with children taking on chores or what's the problem with children being able to understand their emotional world or the emotional world of others? The problem with parentification is this experience is often done at a developmental level in which the child is not quite at yet.
So it's very overwhelming and harmful for the development of the child and young person.
Silvan (10:03)
Yeah, and so how young would be too young for some of these roles to be taken on? What did you find?
Paris (10:11)
Do you know what, it's a really good question and I definitely think that would vary depending on where we're looking at in the world. I'm from a Caribbean background and I know for a fact, children as young as five, you know, will be climbing mango trees to collect fruit for the family. That's considered normal and actually maybe somewhat of a confidence building ⁓ task, They're contributing to the family system. In England, where I live, if a child five years old was
climbing trees to collect apples for the family, I would be 100 % sure that social services probably would be good for things like sort of risk, danger, you know, all these things. So I think the first thing is that it really depends on where in the world we're looking at this. But also it really depends on the child and how the child is, what's the word?
interpreting this experience. That's a big part of parentification as well. In the literature, there's an element of whether a child considers what they're doing as fair or unfair. If a child considers it unfair, for example, if they're maybe seven years old and they're having to be cooking in the kitchen, rather than sort of playing with their peers, it would have a negative impact on them versus if a child maybe is seven years old and they're helping their parent in the kitchen with cooking.
and it's kind of almost supervised and it's again encouraging them or leaning into one of their hobbies, they would consider it a positive thing and that might not be considered parentification. So there's different aspects to it. I would say what would be generally considered helpful or useful development for a child, how much support they're getting. Remember a lot of the time parentified children don't get support. If anything, they are expected to problem solve and to do these things on their own.
And then lastly, how fair the child feels like these responsibilities are. We could have a child that's 15 and it's their main role to pick up their younger siblings from school. They might consider this completely unfair when all their friends are going to the park afterwards. And even though they're 15 and one might consider that an appropriate age, it's taking away from their development, know, their essence of being an adolescent and figuring out what roles they want to take out and play in the world. So it's quite nuanced, I would say. Yeah.
I say it's quite nuanced.
Silvan (12:36)
I really liked that you make that distinction between sort of, and when you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, me in the kitchen with my mom helping her cook, for example, but there's a very strong distinction between me helping her cook versus me being a young person having to cook for the rest of the family because nobody else was going to do it, for example. Yeah.
Paris (12:53)
Exactly. That part. Exactly that.
It's the responsibility that the person feels they have for this particular task.
Silvan (13:04)
And within the context of black families and communities, how is this parentification expressed?
Paris (13:10)
Firstly, I would often say it's intergenerational. So what you'll often find is that parentification is a cultural element that has been passed down. The clinical psychologists that I interviewed, majority of them had a mother who had also been parentified, a mother who had also been thrust into this role and these caregiving roles and responsibilities earlier than her time. So
If we see it as something that's been passed down, it's actually normalized. It's sometimes an expectation, particularly for the eldest daughter. So there's this idea that the eldest daughter is almost the additional parent, the additional helper of the family system. And this doesn't always have to be in single parent families. It can also be in families where there are two parents. But because of the gender differences and the idea again, generalizing here, but generally within sort of black communities,
women are the ones who take on particular roles, the cooking, the cleaning, the rearing of children. That then falls onto the eldest girl who almost supports their mother in these roles. I think it is important here to note that parentification also does impact men, but in a slightly different way often. So what we often find with parentification and young boys is there's this thing called spousification.
And spousification essentially is where the young boy may take on the role and responsibilities of meeting the mother's needs, where her needs might be neglected. This might often mean, that she's in a relationship with a partner who's emotionally unavailable or she's a single parent. So the young man is expected to kind of take on that role and responsibility as the second parent. This can also look like supporting the family financially as well.
less likely emotional for the family unit, but often at times for the mum. So I'm not saying that it doesn't affect men, it does. But with women, because of the intersectionalities of gender, of race in this instance, and the cultural understanding that women are supposed to do certain roles, it often falls on them more so. So yeah, within the family unit, it's something I would say that's normalized. It's often considered that, well, everyone has to do it, so what's the problem?
I do think at times it can be pathologized because I think there are a lot of skills that can come out of taking on these roles. A lot of leaders have this experience of being the eldest daughter. I know there's a lot of famous people that we know, Beyonce, Oprah, and many others who have also been the eldest daughter. And there's an element of success, right? There's this kind of drive and this ability to take care of everyone and everything.
The problem, however, is that then means that if there are any struggles, if there is any vulnerability, it's often overlooked and the parentified individual doesn't actually even feel like they have the space to be able to speak up. So there's a lot of suffering in silence. Recently, there's been a lot of research that has also suggested that black women are much more likely to experience autoimmune diseases. And I think a lot of this is from suppressed emotions and the inability to actually ask for support.
in life. So there's a lot of dynamics here that are unspoken and I do really hope that my research allows some of these things that are unspoken to become more of topics of conversation for people to say yes, even though this was my grandma's experience, even though this was my mother's experience and mine, it doesn't have to be my daughter's experience. I want to do things differently. I want to share, you know, the burdens of caregiving or whatever it is amongst all siblings so it doesn't fall so heavily on one.
Silvan (17:02)
I like that you talked about the difference between sort of parentification between young women and young men and how different they can be because in a way it's very much dictated by our society and the expectations that young men or young women will have because of just societal norms in a way.
Paris (17:15)
Most definitely.
Silvan (17:23)
and I agree that this burden mainly falls on women. and we can see that between generations. You talked a little about sort of how it can affect young people and it's very nuanced at what age, but I wonder how these sort of early caregiving roles then shape
that development of identity for young women or young girls, thinking about things like their self-worth, their responsibility, and how that can almost impact relationships later in life.
Paris (17:54)
Yeah, honestly, I get really excited when I think about this topic because the links are so clear. From an early age, if we have been socialized to care, to provide, to support, as we grow older, that almost becomes fused with our sense of self-worth. If I'm not caring for, if I'm not providing support, if I'm not taking responsibility, I am unworthy.
In developmental psychology, when we think about sort of adolescence, this is a period in which we're able to, or hopefully able to try on different roles, right? I remember when I was a teen, I worked in waitressing, I worked in retail, I did a little bit of social sort of care work. I had many hacks, right? I did many things. When you've been parentified, this opportunity is often robbed of you. And the reason why I say that is because when people are sort of going out and trying different things,
The parentified child is supporting the family unit. I'm just reflecting one of my participants. She was a black girl who went to a private school.
And she identified that on the weekends, most of her friends had gone horse riding and this was something she really wanted to experience. Instead on the weekend, the focus was on her supporting her mum to take her younger siblings to their extracurricular activities. She was completely dismissed and left behind because she wasn't considered or seen as a child. She was considered part of the adult unit.
I say all of that to say at the early stages of when we are identifying who we are, what we want to be in this world, parentification tells us essentially, you are a carer. You are the person that carries burdens for everyone else. You are the person that doesn't complain whilst doing these things, because if you do, then, you know, something goes wrong within the family unit. So we often find a linear pathway from being a carer early in life
to becoming a carer as our profession.
Silvan (20:00)
Yeah. And how would that sort of affect relationships later in life?
Paris (20:06)
Yeah, I definitely think it affects relationships later on in life. I think there's a lot of literature that suggests firstly, looking at romantic relationships, that eldest daughters who sort of have taken on this role of supporting people emotionally, but also practically, end up going for partners who they can also support in that way. So it's almost a way of living out, living out the roles that we took on in childhood.
unintentionally, of course, but if we think about the fact that if someone considers their sense of self-worth about what they can do for others and how they can care for others, then of course, they're going to need to support and care for a partner to feel loved, to feel needed and to feel worthy. This also plays out in friendships. People that are parentified are often the ones that do a lot of the planning.
are often the ones that kind of take a lot of responsibility to keep the friendship units together. The ones that are saying, hey, we haven't seen each other in a long time, let's go out. Relationships are not always reciprocal. For the parentified person, because they've learned these skills so early on, it comes really naturally to them, right? But that doesn't mean that it isn't having an effect. It doesn't mean that they are not navigating these relationships feeling like, if I don't come forward, if I don't do these things, no one will. So there's a lot of loneliness within
relationships, there's a lot of overcompensation within relationships and not to just focus on friendships and romantic relationships but also family units. are usually, I think the term on social media was like the family admin. So any family holidays, they are the ones booking everything, any family dinners, any events, they are the ones that are really taking on those administration duties. Again,
not asked for, but almost expected. So it really impacts their relationships. Lots of resentment for feeling that their needs are not being heard and not being met. And a lot of people pleasing, where we're kind of doing and supporting others, because again, that's our way of feeling validated, feeling needed. But ultimately, a lot of feeling unfulfilled in relationships where we don't necessarily have that confidence to ask for what we want and need. Because when we go back to childhood, there was no space to do that.
So almost there's this element of not updating what was once potentially helpful then. If you were the main responsible person to support the emotional needs of the family unit, there was no one to ask for support, right? You had to really sit in that yourself as a child. As an adult, however, very different territory. And often at times there isn't that updating in the identity. It's almost a continuation, which is also what I found in my research.
Silvan (22:50)
That's so interesting because I was thinking about how in a perhaps romantic relationship, how that might play out in the dynamic between somebody and their partner. And you talked about resentment and I can think of friends who I've talked to that are in relationships and specifically black female friends that I have and how normalized it is that they
Paris (23:15)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (23:19)
do everything. You talked about the planning, the executing, the child rearing, holding down a full-time job, dealing with work responsibilities when they come home, for example. I'm remembering a conversation I had with a friend just a couple of weeks ago, And objectively, you can step back and say, that's a lot, regardless, right?
Paris (23:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
too much.
It's too much. I think it is definitely too much. Just because someone can do it doesn't mean they should. And remember, again, I have to give credit where it's due. Eldest daughters, people who have experienced parentification, they can carry a lot, they can do a lot. And often at times they don't complain. But just because that's their experience doesn't mean it's right.
because they haven't learned or had the space to ask for their needs early in life, their needs often, if not always, go unmet. And people aren't as attuned to their needs as they are to others. Sometimes they don't even give people enough space to attune themselves to them. Because again, it's like, if I don't do it, no one's gonna do it.
A lot of this comes from threat-based socialization.
Silvan (24:38)
Tell me more about what you mean by threat-based socialization, please.
Paris (24:42)
Yeah,
so over my, again, research, I found that from the West's perspective, parentification is this pathology, it's this idea that children end up taking on the burden for parents who aren't able. This could be because parents are in the military, parents have their own mental health challenges, single parent households, et cetera.
In the black community, what we often see is parentification is an adaptive strategy to keep the family system going. So it's a survival mechanism. For example, there's something missing within the family unit. It might be someone who's emotionally attuned, or it could be someone who is practically able to do certain things. Let's say, for example, it is a single parent household and the mom is working a nine to five.
This then means that there may be issues when the children come home from school with food and just other things like someone being there to support. The eldest child, usually the eldest daughter, ends up stepping in to keep the system going. So in many ways, it was necessary for the survival of the family. So as much as we can kind of pathologize it, this individual stepped in to keep things afloat.
When we think about sort of systemic therapy, it's this idea that we need homeostasis within systems, right? The parentified child is very vital to the family system and unit. So I would often see and consider their behaviors as adaptive. Threat responses in some way. My parents can't take on these burdens. It's been placed on me. I have a responsibility to take on these burdens. If I don't, no one else will.
So it's really coming from this kind of place of threat. If I don't know when else will, I have to. And then when I think about it, I often see it from a lens of compassion focus therapy, which focuses on these kind of free emotional drive systems. So you've got the drive system, which is all about pursuing, goal setting, doing. You've got the threat system, which is about avoiding harm and danger. And you've got the soothe system. In the parentified child,
The threat system is huge. The drive system is huge because there's so much doing and so much that needs to be done. And their Sue system is often non-existent. There's no space to sit to be content, to even sort of regulate one's nervous system. So if we learnt that early on, it was to protect us in some way. What good would it have been if a parentified child was sitting in their Sue relaxing?
when there's younger siblings who haven't eaten, when there's a mum who's really stressed out about how she's going to make ends meet, you know, constantly switched on to the family unit and to everyone else's experiences of, need to do things, I need to make things shake, otherwise everything will fall apart. It's a heavy burden, but it does come from survival.
Silvan (27:48)
really like that you talk about that soothed system. You know, I love my CFT. In fact, we did that together actually. I like that you touch on it because I can imagine and I'm trying to sort of remove my lens as a man as well. And for those of you who aren't watching, I come from an Indian heritage. So I'm really aware of the lens that I'm bringing into this and trying to sort of step out of that. But I can imagine, you know,
Paris (27:51)
Yes, we did.
Mm.
Silvan (28:17)
for a lot of people not engaging in that soothe, but also not being taught how to engage in that soothe so that when you're at home and I can imagine like a parent coming home, like if you were seen to be relaxing, it's like, what are you doing? Why are you relaxing? Why aren't you doing this?
Paris (28:25)
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly. And a lot of the women that I interviewed said that. In fact, not even just not being taught or it being kind of disregarded, modelled. Their parents didn't model Soothe. Their parents didn't have hobbies. Their parents didn't sit down and have a cup of tea from coming in from work. A lot of their parents had a second job. A lot of their parents went straight into caregiving and supporting the family unit. They never saw what it looked like to activate Soothe.
And when they did try and sit down and relax, like you said, it was like, actually, you've got things to do. I'm gonna misquote this slightly, but one of my participants actually said, as a black woman, she was discouraged to have fun or to sit with joy because, quote, her mom said, when you get older, you're not gonna have space for that. So it's better that you don't get used to that now, and it's better that you get used to the roles that you will be playing, which is taking care of the family unit.
So that was actually what she was told verbatim. Black women are not afforded joy, are not afforded rest, because these are not things that you're gonna have as a woman. So get with the program now.
Silvan (29:48)
Wow.
That's huge. Gosh, I'm taking a moment just to take it actually in because imagine being a child and being told this isn't your life. You don't get to do this. You don't deserve this. You don't get to want this later.
Paris (29:59)
Yeah.
exactly.
Mm-hmm. There's no space for this in your life.
Silvan (30:16)
Yeah. And I'm thinking about, you know, experiences of on conversations with my friends and a lot of what you're saying resonates, you know, with me, but also in conversations that I've had with friends of mine, especially, you know, in preparation for this conversation.
And I wonder if any of these experiences, you know, cross over to different cultures.
Paris (30:39)
absolutely. I think within certain cultures, so I remember doing a research project on the Chinese community and we came across this word called filial piety, which is where the children are expected to support the elders and that is just kind of what's seen culturally. I think this kind of early caregiving and supporting the family unit comes up in many collectivist communities. But like I mentioned, it's often framed differently.
and seen differently, it can be seen sometimes as a form of virtue, a form of giving back, a form of supporting and providing and doing what's right for the family unit. And this can, like I said, be considered and seen in sort of Asian communities, which we do see it. I would say the difference perhaps in black communities is the way in which it's honored and valued and the meaning attached to it.
even though in some instances it can be seen as a virtuous thing, that I would say is less likely and it's more so seen as this is an expectation. This isn't something that's going to make you more kind of, guess, respected within the society. This is just an expectation for you. So, yes, it isn't just for our, for my community.
impacts, particularly when we come to the West, it impacts most migrant communities. Because again, when we think about parentification from, I guess, a collectivist or systemic lens, it's the idea that there's something missing in the family unit and this child has to step in and take over that. So even if that's in the ability to communicate where English is a second language, the child steps in to support with that.
So, yeah, my answer is yes.
Silvan (32:35)
Yeah, and as you were talking, I was just thinking about, you know, my friends and my Asian or Indian sort of of Indian heritage friends from back home. And even the way they were brought up and the way they were sort of socialized, it was like, you know, you're the dutiful daughter. You take on these responsibilities, you know, how are you going to get married if you can't cook? Those are conversations that I still had now. And
Paris (32:59)
Mm-hmm.
Most definitely.
Silvan (33:03)
And even when, because we are living in a society where our parents are sort of aging, but also there are health complications with sometimes with aging. And it's my friends who are caring for their older parents exclusively, the boys or the male siblings. I don't think they're doing it to the same extent, if I'm honest, but my female friends are expected to do it, but also they step up and do it.
Paris (33:08)
Mmm.
No. No.
Silvan (33:31)
before they've even been asked. They almost anticipate what's going to happen. And they're three steps ahead. The boys are just like, just tell me what you want me to do. Okay, do you want me to take mom to the hospital? I'll do it. It's like, no, no, you should know that there's an appointment next week. Just step up and do it.
Paris (33:36)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Exactly. And I think, like you said, that almost waiting to do it without being asked is because they've often seen their parents do the same. Mum just stepped up and looked after grandparents without being asked. It actually touches on to one of my themes, actually. One of my themes was the cost of being the good girl. And when I talk about the good girl and goodness, like you mentioned, it is about being compliant. It is about doing all the things that society says one should do. It's about not complaining.
It's about putting other people's needs first. And a lot of the time, parentification leads to us being the good girl. I've got to do the right thing because actually by me rebelling or doing things that would help me to explore parts of myself, I would be causing friction and harm to the family unit. The parentified child is a significant part of the family unit. So I need to stay in line and do these things to cause as less friction as possible.
but also to make sure that things stay afloat.
Silvan (34:48)
Yeah, yeah, that's so true. It is, but it's so important to be able to have a conversation like this because I'm sure it's going to resonate with a lot of people, whether they're from the black community or whether they're female or not. I think it's such a human value that people are going to identify with. I wonder if there were other themes that came out through your research that, you know, stuck with you.
Paris (34:50)
Very heavy.
most definitely.
I would say I named it intergenerational responsibility and internalized roles. And essentially this is all about caregiving becoming part of a sense of someone's identity and self-worth. If I'm not caring for others, who am I?
If I'm not clinical psychologist, which essentially is a form of caring, who am I? So people really become fused and enmeshed with these roles outside of work, but also inside of work, right? It's this element of responsibility and identity that's been formed. I found this particular theme really interesting because I think it spoke to the kind of unspoken ⁓ expectations.
that are placed on parentified individuals. This is just who you are. And actually there's never been any space for you to explore any other sides of yourself. So if this is the side of you that's been strengthened the most through repetition, then surely this is what I should be doing. So when you think about jobs, this is what I'm known for. This is what I'm good at. So of course I'm gonna go into the caring profession. Of course I'm gonna be a therapist. Of course I'm gonna be a psychologist or a nurse or a teacher.
Silvan (36:29)
And to follow up to something you just said, you said, if I'm not caring, who am I?
Paris (36:35)
Mmm.
Silvan (36:35)
I
think that really stuck with me because I imagine for a lot of people that that becomes their identity, but that's also all they know. And not to sort of diminish that experience, it becomes almost this, it's a solace. It becomes almost a gratifying part of that identity. It's almost like I'm the carer. I can do this and I do it better than other people.
Paris (36:57)
Yes.
Yes.
You're really hitting on something because again, I'm thinking about one of my sub themes which was when caregiving becomes self-validation. So actually, yes, what was perhaps thrust upon someone early in childhood becomes part of their identity, then becomes part of something that they need to protect. So I remember one of my participants saying, actually, I know how to do things better than others. Actually, someone caring for me,
threatens my identity. So dismissing care, dismissing support because it threatens my identity and it undermines what I know I'm able to do. So yeah, in some ways it can become a little bit malignant in that actually people end up finding themselves in positions in which they can care for others. And unintentionally,
enabling some people in their lives. So I think about mothers who have been parentified and have been so used to that care, caregiving sort of responsibility. They may enable their adult children. They may do so much for the adult children that their adult children actually don't learn the skills and tools necessary to be a fully functioning adult. Because if we're not a fully functioning adult in our own right, we have to come back to you for caring. So we end up validating that part of you.
So sometimes again, things actually caused us harm, actually we can end up causing harm to other people. Isn't it interesting?
Silvan (38:36)
Right? Because in a way, I don't, and I'm speaking hypothetically here, of course, but if I don't allow my child to become a fully functioning adult out in society, they still need me. They maintain that closeness with me because there is a dependency. So actually I don't feel quite as lonely then.
Paris (38:54)
Mm-hmm.
You still get to keep your identity of the caregiver. That's it.
Silvan (39:01)
right?
And so when I was reading your research, many of your participants sort of described their work as a continuation of that childhood caregiving. How did they show up in their professional identity?
Paris (39:10)
Mm. Mm. ⁓
I would say the first way it showed up was this essence of being attuned, building really strong rapport and relationships, being able to almost know what someone's experiencing without them saying it. These aren't skills that they learned through clinical training. These were skills that were learned in early childhood.
So one of the sub themes I called clinical instincts born from survival. The idea that these clinicians are so good with people is because they had to be in childhood, right? So essentially there's this kind of link between I was a carer early on in my life. This wasn't necessarily validated, but now as a clinician and as this being part of my job.
this is validated, not just through pay, but me being able to support those who may have been in situations that I was once in. One of the things I noticed was that a lot of the psychologists ended up working in areas that linked to their wounds. So one ⁓ witnessed domestic abuse between her father and her mother, and she ended up working in prison, which a lot of women are in prison for.
fighting back against abusers. Another one where she felt as though she was, she called herself the first mother. So she was so responsible for the family unit. Her mom was second. She was the first mother and the family would make jokes about that. She worked in CAMS. So she worked with young people. And she often spoke about wanting to be and wanting to show up in these young people's lives in a way that people didn't.
someone never showed up for her. So this kind of care as continuation, there was something about showing up to mend wounds through mending other people's wounds. But also a lot of these skills that we really honor and value as clinicians being built early in their lives, not through training. So things like compassion that was built through their experiences early in life.
one lady said, actually, I learned compassion from my grandmother, the way she would care for the family unit and everyone involved. This wasn't a clinical skill that I learned on a doctoral program. So yeah, that was a really interesting theme.
Silvan (41:52)
Yeah, and in a way it's almost like these women that you spoke and interviewed are almost returning to these areas, like you said, as the adult that they needed when they were a child.
It's so interesting how it of circles back. And in a way, I imagine it's almost like repairing part of that inner child self.
Paris (42:10)
Exactly.
Most certainly, it's definitely reparative work for sure. Being able to provide for someone what you didn't get doesn't just heal them, it heals something inside of you, that inner child.
Silvan (42:33)
Yeah.
And Paris, I'm wondering what it was like for you.
you know, both emotionally and also practically to interview black female clinical psychologists about these sort of childhood experiences that they were having.
Paris (42:52)
In many ways, it was reparative for me. I think providing ⁓ these clinical psychologists with the space to explore some of their early experiences in a way perhaps that they hadn't spoken about with anyone else, because like I mentioned, in our communities, it's considered a norm and a lot of people experience it. So, you know, what gives us the right to talk about how some of these experiences have maybe infected us negatively? It really allowed them to have that space.
But more importantly, it really shone the light on just how much the choice to become a clinical psychologist wasn't often a choice at all. Some of them actually sat and said, wow, if I hadn't gone through this early in life, would I have actually been a therapist? Would I have actually have been a clinical psychologist? Perhaps not.
So just allowing that opportunity for people to reflect and think about things in ways maybe they hadn't done was really ⁓ nourishing for me. I would be considered a sort of insider researcher because I also had similar lived experience and where I was focusing on the lived experience of my clinicians, it was very important that I made sure that I kind of held my experience, my assumptions and my biases, allowing them to kind of sit in their own experience.
That was definitely challenging. I would say a lot of what they were saying resonated with me and I kind of had to kind of hold the thought of saying, you know, I resonate with this and I experienced this. But even though that might be the case, it's different because they have a different lived experience. They're coming from a different walk of life. A lot of them had been qualified many more years ahead of me. There were many differences. So whilst I was kind of going through the interview process, I had to constantly remind myself that.
Yes, there are similarities, but there are also these divergences and to hold two of these truths in mind. At times, it often did feel like a therapeutic space because like I mentioned, the topics are very heavy, they're very heartfelt and they're very real. And a lot of these women were still carrying out this over-functioning, still carrying out this self-silencing within the workplace.
So not just seeing this as this is something we experienced and we're talking about it from a sort of historic lens. Actually, this is our lived reality now. I'm really sorry I'm late to the interview. I stayed back late from work. So there was something about actually seeing what the impact looks like long-term and how it still shows up in someone's life and affects them. It was definitely a journey. I definitely leant on supervision heavily.
I journaled throughout. It was really important for me to kind of reflect on my own lived experiences and what was coming up for me. ⁓ But it was definitely an experience.
Silvan (45:49)
Yeah, and in a way, I'm curious as to ask, you know, what that looked like for you as a researcher. You talked about having, you know, you were very much in that researcher stance, but almost seeing this women and seeing these women so far into their career and looking at what their role is now or how it's expressed now, did any of it sort of give you an idea of what you'd like to be or what you wouldn't like to be as a black female clinical psychologist?
Paris (45:59)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Silvan (46:19)
purchase.
Paris (46:19)
Oh,
for sure, for sure. I'm even just thinking about the kind of analysis process. It took me a good couple of weeks to get into it because it was so heavy and a lot of it did really sort of touch close to home. I would say as a researcher, I felt very honored to have listened to these stories and I felt it was my responsibility to handle them with care, to make sure that I was shining light on these lived experiences. So there was a little bit of a burden for me.
one in which I fully accepted. Also, because this was an area that hadn't been researched since, I felt like it was my responsibility to really do it justice and to show that there is an area here that has been under research, but is also directly impacting clinicians, burnout, one's inability to have job satisfaction. So was really important for me to see how far people had come, what parts of that parentification
caregiving responsibilities they let go, which parts they still kind of held on and the impact that had on their lives long term. As it pertains to me, on my journey as a clinical psychologist, 100%, I remember working in my early career and engaging in a lot of these behaviors, staying at work later to finish notes under the guise of if I do it now, you know, I'll feel lighter tomorrow, but there's always more work tomorrow.
It's something like having a really important family event, but feeling like I didn't want to let down my colleagues, maybe if I was running a group. So going to that family event late and showing up to work, putting other people's needs before my own, I really noticed how my early experiences had really fed into how I showed up as a clinician. But also just things like how we show up in the room, right? What kind of modalities we find ourselves more drawn towards and not so much.
A lot of the clinical psychologists said, even though CBT is a sort of foundational modality within clinical training, it wasn't their first focus. And actually their first focus was on that humanistic perspective, that being with that relational building. And that comes from early life, you know, that kind of ability to build strong relationships very quickly, to see someone, hear someone, to understand someone is a skill that's just innately there.
And all of the other therapeutic stuff they considered was secondary. I felt the same as well. I love my therapeutic toolbox, but I would always say the first step for me as a clinician is being with someone in the room with them, human to human. So yeah, that's what I would say.
Silvan (48:59)
It's so interesting how almost like, and I'm using the word elders in a very sort of symbolic way, but we still learn from the elders, right? Yeah. And you talked about sort of a lot of these participants that you interviewed, you know, had obviously gone through the clinical doctorate training program and a lot of the qualities that they possessed as clinicians and therapists, you know, preceded
a lot of that training because it was inherent in them anyway. but I'm wondering what clinical doctorate programs can do to better support specifically black women who carry these histories of parentification, you know, going into these clinical practices and spaces.
Paris (49:45)
I would say the first thing is about recognising the histories that each individual brings into the room. From a practical lens, from an academic lens, a lot of our experience is the same. You know, we've worked in similar jobs, we've maybe done similar research elements, know, service evaluations, audits. But what makes us different is our histories and our stories.
And I would say it's really important for programs to make more space for that, particularly for black women. Another thing that I often found in training was this idea of confidence versus performative competence. So black trainees often show up very confidently. I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm okay. If I need your support, I will come and ask.
It's important for supervisors not to see that as amazing, the perfect trainee, right? Because one might say a parentified child is the perfect trainee. It's important for supervisors to see this potentially as performative competence. Maybe I don't have it all together. Actually, I'm training. There should be elements where I don't know what I'm doing and I should be able to kind of make mistakes. When we think about the early experiences, there was no room to make mistakes.
These children weren't competent, but they couldn't make mistakes. We see perfectionism, we see doing things and having to be right. And supervisors just see that as great. That's an element of my job done for me. Be curious, ask questions. Okay, it seems like you're doing really well here, but I want to take a step back and think about how much of this might be you performing? How much of this might be you feeling like this is an expectation of you to have it all together?
to say the right things, to achieve clinical outcomes with particular clients, things of that nature. So just to be more curious in their stance. My final point I would say is just to be aware of emotional labor and the fact that it often shows up sort of quite subtly within individuals. How much burden are these clinicians taking on? How much do they support?
other clinicians who are from global majority backgrounds. There's this kind of thing that I noticed about this kind of silent unpaid mentoring that people from global majority backgrounds often provide for other trainees or other junior members of staff. They're doing this because they know representation matters, but this is unpaid work. So I think it's important that supervisors or senior leadership see that this work is very important and to almost kind of give a bit of space and time
within someone's diary to count for it.
Silvan (52:46)
Gosh, that last point really hit me because I can think of so many mentors that I even worked with that were from, you know, minority backgrounds. And a lot of the time there was no money involved. They did it because they wanted to. But you're right, they should have been paid for the work. They should have been paid for their time.
Paris (52:58)
Mm-hmm.
for their time, or at least consider that this is a good use of time. So maybe, you you get to take a little bit of time back here, or maybe that's one less client, because this work is very heavy. And like you, I've been mentored by many in this space, and I've also mentored many. And it's something that we don't necessarily ask to sort of be considered as like a badge of honor, we do it because we care. But systems need to know that actually,
is someone's time. How can we allow this person to reclaim some of that time?
Silvan (53:44)
And so I'm wondering, Paris, how does your research now inform how specifically Black clinical female psychologists are working in the workplace?
Paris (53:54)
I mean, I would hope that it would allow them to have the permission to push back, to say no to responsibilities that are not within their remit or perhaps someone else could do. I would really hope that it would allow them to actually take their annual leave because this element of guilt for letting people down is very real and it leads to people sometimes completely missing their annual leave deadlines.
But more from a professional standpoint, I would hope that it gives people that kind of encouragement that being with a client in the room, not necessarily having to have the best skills and all of these things is enough, that they are enough as clinicians. And I would really hope that it allows people to start to unwind their identity with what they do. Being able to say, okay, this is what I do and I'm great at what I do.
But what other things do I do versus actually who am I? Who do I want to be as an individual, not based on just what I do professionally? So I would love that. I would love to see more black psychologists really lean in and pour into other sides of themselves. You really lean in and pour into rest, restoration, fun, play, their own boundaries.
not always kind of holding on to advocacy, you know, working, going above and beyond a lot of black clinicians, they have their nine to fives in the NHS, and they do loads outside. And I think that's great. But I also think there's something there about our sense of self-worth and identity being tied up to helping and giving back. What about helping ourselves and giving back to ourselves pouring into our cups? So
not so much, I guess, like practical tips, because I think those therapeutic tips are all there, but more so about how they can be more functional in these spaces, limiting burnout, limiting this idea that everything has to be perfect, and just allowing themselves to be human, allowing themselves to make mistakes like other clinicians do, and not feeling the fear that they'll be penalized for it, and releasing some of that guilt that shows up.
Silvan (56:14)
And I really think that comes across in your message, in your research and the way you talk and the way you deliver, you know, this quite important research that you've actually conducted and in an area that it doesn't always show up. So it's so important to represent these areas. I'm wondering if you can point any listeners to resources, for example, where they can, I don't know, watch or read if...
Paris (56:25)
Thank you.
Hmm.
Mm.
Silvan (56:42)
They're interested in this and they want to learn a bit more.
Paris (56:45)
For sure. So definitely my research paper, if you type the title into Google, it will come up. So I'm just going to say the title again. It's the role of parentification in the personal and professional identity development of black female clinical psychologists. I would also say ⁓ organizations such as Home Girls Unite. This is a community organization that is tailored towards eldest daughters.
They provide a podcast, provide community groups and just overall support for people who have been burdened with this caregiving responsibility ahead of their time.
And if you're an academic at all, I would encourage you to read Djokovic's paper. It's actually a book now and it's called Lost Childhoods, The Plight of the Parentified Child. There's so much in that book and it actually initially came out in 1997. So reading it myself and seeing that a lot of these ways in which parentification impacts people still remains today.
just goes to show that we really need to continue having these conversations and breaking some of these cultural things that have been normalized, aren't as helpful as perhaps maybe they once was or needed to be.
Silvan (58:07)
And I'll certainly put some of those links in the names in the description box so people can find them later.
Silvan (58:12)
speaking of finding you Paris, where can people find you? And what have you got coming up that people can tune into?
Paris (58:19)
One thing that I do have coming up is a webinar I've called The Sweet Spot. So this is a clinical psychology interview masterclass. And this is to support anyone who is interested in the journey of becoming a clinical psychologist, but more importantly, for those who are currently applying. So it's interview season at the moment, which is exciting. So this workshop is going to be on the 26th of March. That's a Thursday evening.
from seven to eight thirty. So if you're someone that could benefit from getting the inside scoop, I've been on both sides. I've been in the interview seat and I've also interviewed. I would love to see you there.
Silvan (58:56)
That's amazing and I know so many people who would be interested in that, so thank you for doing that, genuinely.
Paris (59:05)
You're welcome, I'm looking forward to it.
Silvan (59:07)
Yeah. And Paris, thank you so much for just spending the hour talking to me. I've had so much fun. Like we've known each other for such a long time, but it's been such a good space to be able to talk about parentification and really understand what the implications of that are.
Paris (59:25)
Thank you so much. agree. think I really appreciate this platform and being able to showcase the work that I've worked on for nearly two years. It's really lovely to do it with a dear friend. So yeah, thank you again.
Silvan (59:38)
Thanks Paris.
