WEBVTT
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Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Versus
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from Gimlet. This is the show that pits facts against fangs.
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Wendy, how would you be?
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Yeah, I'm good. How are you?
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I'm all right, mate. I'm happy to be alive.
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This is Pete Bethune. Pete is a conservationist, G.I. Joe style.
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He stopped whalers out in the Pacific Ocean, rescued a
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dolphin held captive in a resort. And recently, on one
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of his adventures, things went particularly sideways.
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It's just before Christmas.
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Pete is deep in the rainforests of Costa Rica with
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his team, a couple of guys, and they're looking for
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evidence of illegal logging and hunting.
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This is a lush forest, thick canopy, very hilly.
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It's up and down, up and down, up and down,
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really steep. Jungle is very spiky. It's got the most
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ferocious ants on earth.
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It's got poisonous spiders. It's got snakes. So it's a
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jungle you need to be really careful walking through.
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And Pete was about to work out that he wasn't
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being careful enough. He was walking through some leaf litter.
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Just a bunch of leaves on the ground. I just
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felt this bang in the back of my leg and
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my first thought was someone had hit me. Like it
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felt like someone had a big stick or a piece
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of wood and it whacked the back of my calf.
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And then I looked down and in horror I see
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this snake sort of recoiling away from me. And as
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soon as I saw it, like I knew it was
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a fertile ants.
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Pete was bitten by this snake called a fertile ants,
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which means spearhead. It's a long snake with this brown
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diamond pattern down its body. And it kills more people
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than any other snake in Central America. Pete's colleague grabs
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his cell phone, he's got one bar of reception, and
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calls up emergency services.
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And they did make it clear, you need to get
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their guy to hospital as quickly as possible or he
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is going to die.
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And the clock is ticking.
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Because the longer that venom courses through Pete's body, the
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worse things are going to get. He has maybe six
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hours to get to a hospital. And he's in the
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middle of this rainforest, so far away from help. Pete
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can already feel the venom moving up his leg.
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And it was so sore. It was such an intense pain.
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And in Pete's line of work, he's gotten into quite
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a few scrapes. He's even been stabbed twice. But he
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said the pain from this venom, it was worse. The
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worst pain he's ever felt.
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I remember thinking there's no way I'd make it out
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of there. I thought I was a dead man. I
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said to one of my guys, I said, you make
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sure you tell Mick that I love them.
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Yeah, it was quite difficult, eh?
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Peter's thinking of his two daughters back in New Zealand.
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But his colleague says we've got to get moving. They
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scope out their options and figure that the fastest way
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out is sliding down these steep and muddy creek beds.
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So I'm crawling on my ass, crawling down these little waterfalls, escarpments, banks,
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creek beds. I remember there was a waterfall that was
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really tricky for me to get down and I was
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looking at it and thinking, holy shit, how am I
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going to get down this?
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But as we're going down, I'm getting weaker and weaker.
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And the strobbing now has moved all the way up
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to my groin area and eventually gets to a stage
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where I just want to sleep.
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But I did think, I'm not going to make this.
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My number was up.
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He just keeps going, sneaking his way through waterfalls and mud,
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and eventually gets to the edge of the rainforest and
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out onto a beach where he reaches the Coast Guard.
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They lay me down on the ground and I remember
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just closing my eyes and You know, just hang on
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a little bit more, hang on a little bit more.
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They get Pete to the hospital and the doctor who
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sees him reckons that Pete is about an hour away
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from dying.
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His heart is racing and he passes out.
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When Pete comes to, he realises that other stuff has
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gone wrong. The venom has attacked the blood vessels in
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his genitals, or as Pete put it.
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My balls and cock go all big and black.
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It is not an uncommon thing that happens with snake
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bite victims.
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That doesn't mean it's not quite a shock.
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Oh, I remember asking one of the nurses, like, is
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this normal? And she came over and she's just, yeah,
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kind of, maybe.
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By now, the doctors had quickly set up an IV
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drip for Pete and given him the one and only
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thing that could save his life.
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Antivenom. It races through his body, fighting back against the
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snake's venom. And if you didn't get anti-venom, what would
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have happened?
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Oh, if I didn't get anti-venom, I would have died.
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No question.
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But instead, little by little, he feels better.
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And while in hospital, Pete starts making these videos of
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what's going on.
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Snake bite, day 11 update. So I started walking around
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for the first time. I walked for the first time.
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After around two weeks in hospital.
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Oh, mate, I'm feeling much better, eh?
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Much better.
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he finally walks out.
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So happy to be out of hospital, eh? So happy
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to be out of there. Each time I'd wake up,
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they'd go, hey, I'm alive. I'm alive. And this little
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sense of euphoria. So, yeah, I was pretty lucky, eh?
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Pete was pretty lucky.
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Because if he'd done all that work of dragging himself
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to the hospital and they didn't have the antivenom, he
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would have been a goner anyway. He needed that special
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little vial. But for loads of people around the world,
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they can't take it for granted that those little vials
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will be there when they need them. Each year, snakebites
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kill some 100,000 people and almost half a million end
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up with major injuries, with some needing to get their
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legs amputated. And part of the problem here is the
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way that we make antivenom today. It's bizarre and convoluted
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and involves a bucketload of snakes and weirdly stables filled
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with horses. So that is what we're diving into today,
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the wild world of antivenom. And then we'll look at
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the groundbreaking research that could eventually revolutionise all this.
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When it comes to snake bites, there's.
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A lot of.
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My balls and cock.
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All right, so there's not a lot of that. But
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then there's science. Science versus antivenom is coming up just
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after the break.
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Welcome back.
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On today's show, snake bites and the bizarre way we
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treat them. So when people get a nasty bite from
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a venomous snake, what they desperately need is anti-venom. And
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it turns out that this stuff is super tricky to make.
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And a big reason why comes down to the venom itself.
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It's a wily beast, which can have a ton of
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treacherous toxins in it.
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It's an absolute biological chemical warfare going on.
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This is Christina Zdenek.
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She studies snake venom at the University of Queensland in Australia.
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And she told us how complicated snake venom is. Like,
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there could be.
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Up to 200 different toxins in it attacking your body
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in these different ways. So, for example, in a fertile
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ant snake, some of the toxins go after your muscles.
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Yeah, it kills muscle cells.
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It's like your... almost getting digested alive.
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For other snakes, the toxins can attack your nerves, making
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it difficult to breathe. And if that wasn't bad enough,
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sometimes two different toxins can work together to kind of
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feed off each other and make everything worse.
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You've got one toxin that's pretty bad on its own
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and another one that's pretty bad on its own, but
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when you put them together and they, like, tag team
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against you.
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Whoa.
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Yeah, it's like, suck eggs!
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And when these toxins say, suck eggs, here's what it
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looks like. So the venom of some vipers can go
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after your blood with a kind of one-two punch. Some
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of the toxins make it tricky for your blood to clot,
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while others make you bleed by kind of punching holes
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in your blood vessels.
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And so you've got a hole caused by the toxins...
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that's now open and you're spewing out red blood cells,
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but all of a sudden you can't stop the bleeding
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in that area, then you're very susceptible to bleeding internally.
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Christina says sometimes people can bleed from all over their body.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So like your gums from your eyes, sometimes your ears
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or your sphincter, your butthole.
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Oh, Jesus.
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Yeah.
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And even if it's really bad, there was a taipan
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bite in Australia where a guy was, it seemed like
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he was sweating.
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Blood from his back.
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Oh.
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And so to bring this back to the problem of
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making antivenom, what we're dealing with here is this nasty
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soup of toxins that's different for different snakes. And basically,
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we want something that can neutralise all those toxins.
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The perfect antivenom.
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So.
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how on earth do we make the stuff that we
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have now? Well, the way that science has dealt with
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this incredible complicated challenge is kind of absurd. And it
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all starts with a sort of snake whisperer.
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Hello, Wendy. So my name is Graven Corrales.
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Graven's worked with snakes for more than a decade. He
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loves them. But these snakes don't always love him back.
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A few years ago, a Sri Lankan green pit viper
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bit his pinky finger.
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So I.
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Actually lose a little part of my finger.
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Oh, wow.
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It's like one centimetre less than it used to be.
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When you look at your finger now, what does it
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look like?
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Beautiful.
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I like it.
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It's really nice for scratching.
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You kind of got to have his attitude if you
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do what Graven does. He works at a lab in
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Costa Rica called the Clodomiro Picado Institute. They make antivenoms
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for Central America, including the antivenom that ended up saving
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Pete's life. And inside that building where Graven works, it's
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a little bit like a giant storage locker with boxes
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filled with snakes.
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So we have about 500 snakes.
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What?
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Yeah, yeah.
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And to make antivenom, first up, we need venom.
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So to make the stuff that was injected into Pete,
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Graven walks past the hundreds of snakes to get to
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the very species that got Pete, the Fertilance.
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We know before we open the box, it's going to
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fight because they are very explosive. They strike many times
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and it's one of the most difficult snakes to handle.
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Graven and his colleague carefully take the snake out of
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the box using wooden poles. And then they sedate the snake.
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by popping it in a basket with carbon dioxide gas.
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This is safer for Graven and also less stressful for
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the snake. So with the snake all good and sleepy,
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Graven then picks up the snake's head while his teammate
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holds the snake's body steady. When it goes under, when
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it's sedated, how long do you have before it wakes
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up generally?
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Around five minutes.
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Five minutes. So what's going through your mind as you're
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doing this?
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Yeah, I know it sounds kind of crazy, but nothing.
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Like in this moment, I have to be very focused.
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You're holding not just the snake, but your partner's life.
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In that moment, you cannot feel no fear. You have
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to be fearless.
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And so with the snake's head in his hands... Graven
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uses large tweezers to guide the fangs of the snake
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into a jar.
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And then, the moment of truth.
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Graven starts pressing down on the snake's venom gland, which
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sits behind the snake's eye. Now, normally in the wild,
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to release its own venom, the snakey will squish muscles
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around the gland, squeezing the venom out. But with the
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snake sedated, it's up to Graven to coax the venom out.
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by gently pushing on the right spot. This is sometimes
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called milking the snake. But Graven likes to say.
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So we have to do a little massage.
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Massage?
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A massage, yeah. You have to do it gently.
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What does it feel like when you massage its gland?
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Actually, you can feel when it's full of venom. So it's...
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I don't see something similar to give you an example.
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Is it like when you have a really big pimple
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and you're like squishing out the oil in the pimple?
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No, not at all.
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What about like a chicken when you make like cooking chicken?
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Does it?
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No, nah.
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No.
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At 2 a.m.
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Tonight, you'll wake up and you'll be like, it's like
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my grandmother's hair.
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Yeah, I got it, Grammy, yeah.
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Eventually, Graven was like, think about it like a slice
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of orange sitting under snake skin, and you're juicing it
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little by little until you see drops of yellow liquid
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coming from the fangs. Once Graven has collected that snake juice,
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he passes it off, and we go to our next step.
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For that, we're going to leave Graven, so say goodbye
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to the snakes.
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Bye.
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And it's time to call in the cavalry.
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Yes.
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To make the.
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Antivenom that saved Pete's life, we're going to now need
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another group of animals.
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Horses.
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At the center where Pete's antivenom was made, there's about
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120 horses.
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And I know what you're thinking about them. Do they
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have names?
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Yes, they have names. In fact, there was one horse
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one time with my name, so I was very proud
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of that.
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This is Jose Maria Gutierrez. He used to head up
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this institute and now he works there as a professor.
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And Jose Maria, he loves the horses and doesn't play favorites.
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I like all of them. They're really fantastic animals.
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And these fantastic animals are literally the workhorses that pump
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out most of the antivenom that we use today, which
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must be hard to do, right? Working the microscopes with
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their big hooves. Luckily, they're making the antivenom inside their body.
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Here's how.
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The first time Chris and Maria's team start working with
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a horse, they'll take that venom that Graven got from
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the snakes, and then.
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You inject little amounts of venom into horses.
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And when a horse is first injected with, say, a
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tiny amount of venom, how do they react?
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Are they like, nay? Do you think it would be
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like a mosquito bite?
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I think it would be a little more than that
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because we are injecting a toxic substance, but you don't
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see any evidence of tissue damage.
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And they don't seem pissed off or anything.
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Exactly.
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The horse might have a bit of swelling, but nothing
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too serious. These horses then get injected again and again
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every two weeks or so. But here is why we're
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doing all of this. Because all the while.
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the.
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Horse's immune system is creating antibodies against this venom. You're
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kind of vaccinating the horse against it.
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And then after several of these injections, usually a couple
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of months, for instance, at that point, the horses are bled.
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Bled.
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About two months into all of this, they'll take around
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six litres of blood from the horse, which Jose Maria
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says is the horsey equivalent of donating a bag of
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blood at a blood bank. And that's why they use horses,
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by the way. because they're big animals with lots of
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blood to give. Some labs use sheep instead. And so,
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after all of this, we get the very thing we've
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been waiting for. The miraculous drug that can fend off
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that super complicated cocktail of venom.
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The horse antibodies. That's what we're going to harness.
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The antibodies get purified from the horse's blood, put into
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a vial, and freeze-dried.
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And remarkably.
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Even though the antibodies come from horses, they work in us.
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So once that stuff gets injected into people like Pete.
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So these antibodies, these horse antibodies would get into the bloodstream.
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They find the toxins and then they block the action
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of the toxins.
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00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:48.720
And so even though we say antibodies as if it's
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like one thing. Within that vial of antivenom, there could
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00:17:52.970 --> 00:17:57.369
be 50 different antibodies that go after 50 different toxins
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00:17:57.430 --> 00:17:57.930
in the blood.
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Exactly.
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Actually, it's a mixture of antibodies. And there are antibodies
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against each of the toxins.
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00:18:03.890 --> 00:18:06.849
And Jose Maria says that after all this work, each
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bag of horse blood will eventually get you enough antivenom
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00:18:10.450 --> 00:18:13.440
to treat roughly 15 people.
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That's it.
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And even then, you've only made a treatment against whatever
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00:18:19.859 --> 00:18:24.400
venom you injected into that horse. So, for example, if
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you just made Fertilance antivenom, that's not going to work
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on someone who got bit by a coral snake.
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It wouldn't work at all. It wouldn't work at all
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because the antibodies are specific.
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And get this.
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This way of making antivenom with all the horses and
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the snakes, the basic steps haven't changed since this process
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00:18:43.750 --> 00:18:49.259
was first invented. in the late 1800s. There's been some
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00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:52.839
improvements along the way, like sometimes horses will get injected
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00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.960
with more than one kind of snake venom. So the
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00:18:56.019 --> 00:18:59.829
horses pump out antibodies for, say, three different kinds of snakes.
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00:19:01.009 --> 00:19:04.450
But still, what all of this means is that to
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00:19:04.509 --> 00:19:08.029
make antivenom for all the scary snakes across the globe,
365
00:19:08.750 --> 00:19:13.140
you have to repeat all this stuff over and over again.
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00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:15.220
And that's what we do.
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00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:20.940
Around the world, in Indonesia, India, Egypt, South Africa, Australia,
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there are labs like Jose Maria's piled high with horses
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00:19:25.349 --> 00:19:28.930
injected with venom and pumping out anti-venom for all kinds
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00:19:28.990 --> 00:19:33.190
of snakes. And bottom line, to make enough of this
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00:19:33.230 --> 00:19:38.230
stuff for everyone who needs it, you need thousands of horses.
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00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:41.809
Yes, you do need huge amount of horses. You need
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huge facilities. It has been said that just in Sub-Saharan Africa,
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there is a need for 1 million bikes. of antivenom
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00:19:51.430 --> 00:19:51.910
per year.
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Wow.
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This is a big problem. So the whole thing is
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really complicated.
379
00:19:56.009 --> 00:19:58.119
Because this process is so bespoke.
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00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:00.950
According to a report from The Lancet, there are more
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00:20:00.990 --> 00:20:04.299
than 100 dangerous snakes out there that we just don't
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00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:08.099
make antivenom for. So if you get bit by one
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00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:09.529
of those snakes....
384
00:20:10.250 --> 00:20:14.799
Good luck. And even if a vial is waiting for
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00:20:14.859 --> 00:20:17.680
you at a hospital, you might run into another problem.
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00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:21.460
Because we're injecting bits of a horse into a human,
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00:20:22.660 --> 00:20:29.490
people can have severe allergic reactions, like anaphylaxis. So that
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00:20:29.569 --> 00:20:32.589
is how we make antivenom today. And the bones of
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00:20:32.650 --> 00:20:35.490
it have been the same for more than 100 years.
390
00:20:38.900 --> 00:20:50.880
But after the break... Things are finally about to change. Hey,
391
00:20:51.210 --> 00:20:53.380
it's Wendy from Science Versus, and I want to tell
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00:20:53.410 --> 00:20:55.160
you about a podcast that I.
393
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:56.579
Love, Science Friday.
394
00:20:56.740 --> 00:20:59.259
They cover all sorts of amazing things in the weird
395
00:20:59.299 --> 00:21:03.339
and wonderful world of science, from how concussions affect our
396
00:21:03.380 --> 00:21:06.519
brain to the inner secrets of a snake with.
397
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:08.059
A spider on its Welcome back.
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00:21:31.630 --> 00:21:35.160
Today, we're talking about nasty snake bites and the kind
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00:21:35.180 --> 00:21:38.220
of antiquated way that we make the one and only
400
00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:42.740
treatment that can save you from them, antivenom. But it's
401
00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:45.930
time for this life-saving medicine to enter the digital age,
402
00:21:46.609 --> 00:21:50.849
so to speak. And recently, something happened that breathed new
403
00:21:50.890 --> 00:21:52.250
life into the world.
404
00:21:52.029 --> 00:21:52.779
Of snake bites.
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00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:57.519
In 2017, the World Health Organization got all hot and
406
00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:01.619
bothered about this and dubbed snakebites the most important kind
407
00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:07.369
of neglected tropical disease. And for snakebites, which kill some 100,000
408
00:22:07.369 --> 00:22:10.990
people each year worldwide, this is like winning an Oscar.
409
00:22:11.650 --> 00:22:16.710
You get extra attention and more money for research. Here's
410
00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:18.799
Professor Jose Maria Gutierrez again.
411
00:22:18.819 --> 00:22:22.400
Things have really changed. The world in general is paying
412
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:26.160
much more attention to this disease. And it's really exciting.
413
00:22:26.660 --> 00:22:30.319
And one of the exciting things that scientists are cooking up? Well,
414
00:22:30.740 --> 00:22:34.349
think about it a bit like a universal antivenom. One
415
00:22:34.390 --> 00:22:38.769
drug to battle lots of different kinds of snakes. So remember,
416
00:22:39.210 --> 00:22:41.690
a big problem with creating a drug like this is
417
00:22:41.750 --> 00:22:45.299
that scary snakes have a bunch of toxins in their venoms.
418
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:47.769
Attacking your body in slightly different ways.
419
00:22:48.509 --> 00:22:51.130
And then on top of that, different kinds of snakes
420
00:22:51.250 --> 00:22:54.329
have different stuff in their venom. So that's why we
421
00:22:54.369 --> 00:22:57.309
need the horses to make all those antibodies against all
422
00:22:57.349 --> 00:23:01.470
those different toxins. Because if we tried to cook up
423
00:23:01.490 --> 00:23:05.640
a drug like that without the horses around, well, Dr.
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00:23:05.660 --> 00:23:08.430
Christina Zdenek says, forget about it.
425
00:23:09.539 --> 00:23:14.240
Oh, well, you're talking about thousands upon thousands of toxins today.
426
00:23:14.730 --> 00:23:19.660
like a ridiculous variety. So you really wouldn't have so
427
00:23:19.700 --> 00:23:22.640
much of a chance. You really need to find a
428
00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:24.000
way to group them together.
429
00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:26.319
Group them.
430
00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:30.059
And this is the new way forward, how scientists are
431
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:34.460
tackling this problem now. By scouring through the dangerous stuff
432
00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:37.680
in venom, they've found that there are these big families
433
00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:39.079
of toxins.
434
00:23:38.569 --> 00:23:40.009
That do similar stuff.
435
00:23:40.789 --> 00:23:43.849
Like there's this one family that goes after our blood vessels.
436
00:23:44.420 --> 00:23:47.319
It's the ones that are punching holes in them. These
437
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:50.119
are enzymes, and they're actually found in the venom of
438
00:23:50.329 --> 00:23:55.589
heaps of snakes all around the world. So scientists figure, hey,
439
00:23:56.269 --> 00:23:59.650
if we can stop those enzymes from causing all that damage,
440
00:24:00.369 --> 00:24:03.970
then maybe we could have one treatment that works against
441
00:24:04.390 --> 00:24:06.210
all those different kinds of snakes.
442
00:24:07.579 --> 00:24:10.299
And one nerd who's testing this out is.
443
00:24:11.259 --> 00:24:13.579
Yeah, so I'm Laurel Blescu.
444
00:24:14.369 --> 00:24:16.750
Laura is at the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine in
445
00:24:16.769 --> 00:24:20.099
the UK. And she told us about something that might
446
00:24:20.150 --> 00:24:23.839
help them tackle that bloody family of toxins. It's an
447
00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:27.980
Achilles heel. You see, the enzymes in that family need
448
00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:30.640
this very particular thing to work.
449
00:24:31.980 --> 00:24:32.309
Zinc.
450
00:24:33.369 --> 00:24:36.490
That's... What makes the enzyme tick, I would say. So
451
00:24:36.529 --> 00:24:39.990
what makes it active. And therefore, if you block it,
452
00:24:40.009 --> 00:24:41.769
then the enzyme can no longer function.
453
00:24:42.410 --> 00:24:45.049
And it turns out there are drugs out there that
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00:24:45.109 --> 00:24:48.970
block zinc. So Laura and her team took one of those,
455
00:24:49.539 --> 00:24:52.160
combined it with another drug that deals with other stuff
456
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:55.559
in snake venom, and put it to the ultimate test.
457
00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:00.339
They enlisted some heroic little white mice and injected them
458
00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:03.299
with snake venom from some of the most dangerous snakes
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00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:04.059
in the world.
460
00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:08.519
We are looking at vipers from Africa, from India, from
461
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:09.339
Central America.
462
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:11.730
They waited a bit to let the venom set in.
463
00:25:12.619 --> 00:25:16.450
then gave them her concoction, the two drugs. Now, if
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00:25:16.490 --> 00:25:18.589
this didn't work, chances are.
465
00:25:18.970 --> 00:25:22.009
These mice would all die within a four-hour window.
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00:25:22.589 --> 00:25:26.599
But instead, the team saw something different. The mice started
467
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:33.480
moving around, sniffing. They seemed to be recovering. And hours later.
468
00:25:33.980 --> 00:25:37.130
Oh, these animals are still alive and look healthy.
469
00:25:38.369 --> 00:25:39.529
And how were you feeling?
470
00:25:39.710 --> 00:25:46.109
Yeah, I was feeling great. I didn't expect it to
471
00:25:46.190 --> 00:25:50.309
work so well against Venoms that are so different from
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00:25:50.369 --> 00:25:50.730
each other.
473
00:25:50.750 --> 00:25:54.970
Yeah, to work for a Fertilance from Central America and
474
00:25:55.029 --> 00:25:57.930
then an Asian, you had Saw-scaled Viper.
475
00:25:58.009 --> 00:25:58.289
Yeah.
476
00:25:59.450 --> 00:26:02.230
How big is that in the world of anti-Venom?
477
00:26:02.670 --> 00:26:05.410
This is amazing. It's really great.
478
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:10.880
Now, science being science, we've still got work to do.
479
00:26:10.900 --> 00:26:14.839
The venom did kill one of the mice after 18 hours.
480
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:18.569
Laura's cocktail of drugs won't help for all snakes out there.
481
00:26:18.589 --> 00:26:22.029
And of course, we need to show that this works
482
00:26:22.289 --> 00:26:27.670
in people. But ultimately, if this new way of tackling
483
00:26:27.750 --> 00:26:32.049
snake venom does work in humans, then that would mean
484
00:26:32.309 --> 00:26:35.930
that after more than 100 years of injecting all those
485
00:26:36.049 --> 00:26:40.839
horses with all that venom, then things could start to change.
486
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:44.329
And maybe in the future, we could cook up these
487
00:26:44.369 --> 00:26:47.549
drugs in labs, just like regular medicine.
488
00:26:48.009 --> 00:26:51.789
You wouldn't need, you know, farms to inoculate all of
489
00:26:51.829 --> 00:26:55.009
these animals. It's massively different.
490
00:26:55.829 --> 00:26:57.809
And this is just one exciting thing that's in the
491
00:26:57.849 --> 00:27:00.430
pipeline that could change the way we treat snake bites.
492
00:27:01.049 --> 00:27:03.130
There are other drugs that mess with zinc that are
493
00:27:03.150 --> 00:27:06.109
being tested, and one is actually going through a clinical
494
00:27:06.150 --> 00:27:10.279
trial in people right now. Other researchers are looking at
495
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:14.349
genetically modifying human antibodies so that they can battle against
496
00:27:14.410 --> 00:27:18.930
some types of venom. So, perhaps one day, all those
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00:27:18.990 --> 00:27:21.529
horses will finally be able to hang up their lab
498
00:27:21.569 --> 00:27:28.000
coats and retire. Okay, so just before we shed our
499
00:27:28.059 --> 00:27:31.960
skin and say goodbye, you gotta know that even though
500
00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:36.490
snake bites can be scary and snakes can be deadly...
501
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Researchers like Christina aren't ready to throw snakes in the
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bin once and for all.
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Goodness, no, that would be horrible.
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She says that some of the toxins in venom are
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00:27:46.890 --> 00:27:50.930
actually helping us. They've been put into medicines. Like, there
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00:27:50.970 --> 00:27:53.750
are drugs on the market right now based on snake venom,
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00:27:54.130 --> 00:27:58.109
treating stuff like high blood pressure and blood clots. And
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00:27:58.509 --> 00:28:01.309
away from all that, as Christina and I were talking
509
00:28:01.369 --> 00:28:04.569
about snakes... She basically went Steve Irwin on me.
510
00:28:05.230 --> 00:28:07.930
I've loved snakes ever since I can remember. You know,
511
00:28:07.950 --> 00:28:11.250
I sort of skipped the fear phase and went straight
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into fascination.
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00:28:12.289 --> 00:28:14.809
What were you fascinated by in particular?
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Oh, gosh, their forked tongue. I was fascinated with how
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they eat, you know, consuming prey whole.
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00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:22.660
You know, they don't chew it.
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00:28:23.339 --> 00:28:26.220
They don't have legs like us. Just the way that
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they move, that sort of caterpillar motion. Oh, some of
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00:28:30.940 --> 00:28:35.970
the patterns on snakes, it's just amazing. It's hard to
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deny they are beautiful.
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They really are.
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00:28:40.990 --> 00:28:43.940
And even Pete Bethune, whose leg is getting better and
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00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:46.839
better by the day, holds a little place in his
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00:28:46.900 --> 00:28:48.359
heart for the snake that bit him.
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00:28:49.130 --> 00:28:52.609
I'm happy that guy's still alive and up there chilling out, mate.
526
00:28:53.009 --> 00:28:55.559
So you don't hold a grudge against the snakey?
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00:28:55.819 --> 00:28:58.880
No, I don't hold a grudge against the snake. He
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00:28:58.900 --> 00:29:00.279
was just doing snake things.
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00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:04.440
That's Science Versus.
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This week we have 117 citations.
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117!
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00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:14.099
So if you want to read more about snakes.
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00:29:13.900 --> 00:29:16.460
Or you have any questions about this episode, then just
534
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:18.460
look at the show notes and you can click on
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00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:20.069
our link to the transcript.
536
00:29:20.349 --> 00:29:21.710
You'll see them all there.
537
00:29:22.490 --> 00:29:26.059
And if you want to see beautiful photos of snakes,
538
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.539
then you got to head to our Instagram account.
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00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:30.720
It's science underscore VS.
540
00:29:31.259 --> 00:29:33.599
While you're there, you can also see a photo of
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Pete's puffed up leg.
542
00:29:35.369 --> 00:29:36.329
Looks pretty gnarly.
543
00:29:37.269 --> 00:29:40.569
Not only all of that, but we've actually collected with
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00:29:40.589 --> 00:29:44.039
the podcast 99% Invisible to make a version of this
545
00:29:44.150 --> 00:29:45.839
very episode with them.
546
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:48.680
It's so much fun. So you should.
547
00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:51.779
Definitely keep an eye on the 99% Invisible feed and
548
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:55.339
you should see an episode about snakes and anti-venom popping
549
00:29:55.380 --> 00:30:03.299
up very soon. All right, time for the credits. This
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episode was produced by me, Wendy Zuckerman, with help from
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00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:09.390
Meryl Horne, Rose Rimler, Michelle Dang, Nick Delrose and Taylor White.
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00:30:09.890 --> 00:30:13.410
We're edited by Blythe Terrell. Backchecking by Erica Akiko Howard.
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00:30:13.849 --> 00:30:16.799
Mix and sound design by Bumi Hidaka. Music written by
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00:30:16.859 --> 00:30:19.700
Peter Leonard, Marcus Begala, Emma Munger and Bobby Lord.
555
00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:21.240
A huge thanks to all.
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00:30:21.140 --> 00:30:23.200
The researchers we got in touch with for this episode,
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including Professor Abdul Razak Habib, Dr Gavin Smith, Professor Abina Kreen,
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00:30:28.819 --> 00:30:33.200
Professor Nick Casewell, Dr Jessica Karari and Dr Tariq Mohamed.
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00:30:33.819 --> 00:30:36.529
And a special thanks to Pia Gedkari, the Zuckerman family
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00:30:36.809 --> 00:30:39.950
and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you
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next time.
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Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Versus
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from Gimlet. This is the show that pits facts against fangs.
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Wendy, how would you be?
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Yeah, I'm good. How are you?
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I'm all right, mate. I'm happy to be alive.
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This is Pete Bethune. Pete is a conservationist, G.I. Joe style.
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He stopped whalers out in the Pacific Ocean, rescued a
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dolphin held captive in a resort. And recently, on one
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00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:37.020
of his adventures, things went particularly sideways.
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It's just before Christmas.
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Pete is deep in the rainforests of Costa Rica with
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his team, a couple of guys, and they're looking for
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evidence of illegal logging and hunting.
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This is a lush forest, thick canopy, very hilly.
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It's up and down, up and down, up and down,
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really steep. Jungle is very spiky. It's got the most
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ferocious ants on earth.
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It's got poisonous spiders. It's got snakes. So it's a
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jungle you need to be really careful walking through.
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And Pete was about to work out that he wasn't
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being careful enough. He was walking through some leaf litter.
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Just a bunch of leaves on the ground. I just
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felt this bang in the back of my leg and
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my first thought was someone had hit me. Like it
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felt like someone had a big stick or a piece
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of wood and it whacked the back of my calf.
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And then I looked down and in horror I see
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this snake sort of recoiling away from me. And as
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soon as I saw it, like I knew it was
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a fertile ants.
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Pete was bitten by this snake called a fertile ants,
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which means spearhead. It's a long snake with this brown
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diamond pattern down its body. And it kills more people
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than any other snake in Central America. Pete's colleague grabs
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his cell phone, he's got one bar of reception, and
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calls up emergency services.
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And they did make it clear, you need to get
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their guy to hospital as quickly as possible or he
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is going to die.
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And the clock is ticking.
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Because the longer that venom courses through Pete's body, the
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worse things are going to get. He has maybe six
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hours to get to a hospital. And he's in the
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middle of this rainforest, so far away from help. Pete
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can already feel the venom moving up his leg.
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And it was so sore. It was such an intense pain.
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And in Pete's line of work, he's gotten into quite
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a few scrapes. He's even been stabbed twice. But he
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said the pain from this venom, it was worse. The
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worst pain he's ever felt.
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I remember thinking there's no way I'd make it out
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of there. I thought I was a dead man. I
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said to one of my guys, I said, you make
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sure you tell Mick that I love them.
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Yeah, it was quite difficult, eh?
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Peter's thinking of his two daughters back in New Zealand.
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But his colleague says we've got to get moving. They
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scope out their options and figure that the fastest way
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out is sliding down these steep and muddy creek beds.
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So I'm crawling on my ass, crawling down these little waterfalls, escarpments, banks,
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creek beds. I remember there was a waterfall that was
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really tricky for me to get down and I was
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looking at it and thinking, holy shit, how am I
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going to get down this?
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But as we're going down, I'm getting weaker and weaker.
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And the strobbing now has moved all the way up
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to my groin area and eventually gets to a stage
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where I just want to sleep.
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But I did think, I'm not going to make this.
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My number was up.
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He just keeps going, sneaking his way through waterfalls and mud,
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and eventually gets to the edge of the rainforest and
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out onto a beach where he reaches the Coast Guard.
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They lay me down on the ground and I remember
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just closing my eyes and You know, just hang on
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a little bit more, hang on a little bit more.
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They get Pete to the hospital and the doctor who
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sees him reckons that Pete is about an hour away
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from dying.
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His heart is racing and he passes out.
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When Pete comes to, he realises that other stuff has
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gone wrong. The venom has attacked the blood vessels in
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his genitals, or as Pete put it.
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My balls and cock go all big and black.
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It is not an uncommon thing that happens with snake
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bite victims.
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That doesn't mean it's not quite a shock.
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Oh, I remember asking one of the nurses, like, is
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this normal? And she came over and she's just, yeah,
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kind of, maybe.
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By now, the doctors had quickly set up an IV
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drip for Pete and given him the one and only
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thing that could save his life.
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Antivenom. It races through his body, fighting back against the
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snake's venom. And if you didn't get anti-venom, what would
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have happened?
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Oh, if I didn't get anti-venom, I would have died.
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No question.
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But instead, little by little, he feels better.
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And while in hospital, Pete starts making these videos of
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what's going on.
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Snake bite, day 11 update. So I started walking around
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for the first time. I walked for the first time.
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After around two weeks in hospital.
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Oh, mate, I'm feeling much better, eh?
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Much better.
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he finally walks out.
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So happy to be out of hospital, eh? So happy
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to be out of there. Each time I'd wake up,
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they'd go, hey, I'm alive. I'm alive. And this little
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sense of euphoria. So, yeah, I was pretty lucky, eh?
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Pete was pretty lucky.
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Because if he'd done all that work of dragging himself
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to the hospital and they didn't have the antivenom, he
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would have been a goner anyway. He needed that special
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little vial. But for loads of people around the world,
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00:05:53.500 --> 00:05:55.939
they can't take it for granted that those little vials
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will be there when they need them. Each year, snakebites
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00:05:59.579 --> 00:06:03.110
kill some 100,000 people and almost half a million end
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up with major injuries, with some needing to get their
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00:06:05.930 --> 00:06:09.769
legs amputated. And part of the problem here is the
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way that we make antivenom today. It's bizarre and convoluted
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and involves a bucketload of snakes and weirdly stables filled
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with horses. So that is what we're diving into today,
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the wild world of antivenom. And then we'll look at
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the groundbreaking research that could eventually revolutionise all this.
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When it comes to snake bites, there's.
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A lot of.
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My balls and cock.
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All right, so there's not a lot of that. But
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then there's science. Science versus antivenom is coming up just
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after the break.
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Welcome back.
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On today's show, snake bites and the bizarre way we
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treat them. So when people get a nasty bite from
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a venomous snake, what they desperately need is anti-venom. And
137
00:07:12.470 --> 00:07:15.529
it turns out that this stuff is super tricky to make.
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And a big reason why comes down to the venom itself.
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It's a wily beast, which can have a ton of
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treacherous toxins in it.
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It's an absolute biological chemical warfare going on.
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This is Christina Zdenek.
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She studies snake venom at the University of Queensland in Australia.
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And she told us how complicated snake venom is. Like,
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there could be.
146
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Up to 200 different toxins in it attacking your body
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in these different ways. So, for example, in a fertile
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00:07:47.589 --> 00:07:50.709
ant snake, some of the toxins go after your muscles.
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Yeah, it kills muscle cells.
150
00:07:53.579 --> 00:07:57.860
It's like your... almost getting digested alive.
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For other snakes, the toxins can attack your nerves, making
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it difficult to breathe. And if that wasn't bad enough,
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00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.079
sometimes two different toxins can work together to kind of
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feed off each other and make everything worse.
155
00:08:12.379 --> 00:08:14.939
You've got one toxin that's pretty bad on its own
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and another one that's pretty bad on its own, but
157
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when you put them together and they, like, tag team
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against you.
159
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Whoa.
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Yeah, it's like, suck eggs!
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00:08:28.290 --> 00:08:32.049
And when these toxins say, suck eggs, here's what it
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looks like. So the venom of some vipers can go
163
00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:40.200
after your blood with a kind of one-two punch. Some
164
00:08:40.259 --> 00:08:43.240
of the toxins make it tricky for your blood to clot,
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while others make you bleed by kind of punching holes
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00:08:48.090 --> 00:08:49.129
in your blood vessels.
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And so you've got a hole caused by the toxins...
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that's now open and you're spewing out red blood cells,
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but all of a sudden you can't stop the bleeding
170
00:09:01.409 --> 00:09:05.970
in that area, then you're very susceptible to bleeding internally.
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00:09:07.870 --> 00:09:11.740
Christina says sometimes people can bleed from all over their body.
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Yeah, yeah.
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00:09:13.220 --> 00:09:18.519
So like your gums from your eyes, sometimes your ears
174
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or your sphincter, your butthole.
175
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Oh, Jesus.
176
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Yeah.
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00:09:23.889 --> 00:09:26.740
And even if it's really bad, there was a taipan
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00:09:26.769 --> 00:09:29.279
bite in Australia where a guy was, it seemed like
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00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:30.679
he was sweating.
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Blood from his back.
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Oh.
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00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:35.120
And so to bring this back to the problem of
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00:09:35.179 --> 00:09:39.500
making antivenom, what we're dealing with here is this nasty
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soup of toxins that's different for different snakes. And basically,
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we want something that can neutralise all those toxins.
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The perfect antivenom.
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So.
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how on earth do we make the stuff that we
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have now? Well, the way that science has dealt with
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this incredible complicated challenge is kind of absurd. And it
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all starts with a sort of snake whisperer.
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Hello, Wendy. So my name is Graven Corrales.
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Graven's worked with snakes for more than a decade. He
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loves them. But these snakes don't always love him back.
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A few years ago, a Sri Lankan green pit viper
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bit his pinky finger.
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So I.
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Actually lose a little part of my finger.
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Oh, wow.
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It's like one centimetre less than it used to be.
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When you look at your finger now, what does it
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look like?
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Beautiful.
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I like it.
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It's really nice for scratching.
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You kind of got to have his attitude if you
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do what Graven does. He works at a lab in
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Costa Rica called the Clodomiro Picado Institute. They make antivenoms
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for Central America, including the antivenom that ended up saving
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Pete's life. And inside that building where Graven works, it's
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a little bit like a giant storage locker with boxes
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filled with snakes.
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So we have about 500 snakes.
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What?
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Yeah, yeah.
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And to make antivenom, first up, we need venom.
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So to make the stuff that was injected into Pete,
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Graven walks past the hundreds of snakes to get to
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the very species that got Pete, the Fertilance.
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We know before we open the box, it's going to
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fight because they are very explosive. They strike many times
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and it's one of the most difficult snakes to handle.
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Graven and his colleague carefully take the snake out of
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the box using wooden poles. And then they sedate the snake.
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by popping it in a basket with carbon dioxide gas.
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This is safer for Graven and also less stressful for
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the snake. So with the snake all good and sleepy,
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Graven then picks up the snake's head while his teammate
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holds the snake's body steady. When it goes under, when
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it's sedated, how long do you have before it wakes
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up generally?
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Around five minutes.
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Five minutes. So what's going through your mind as you're
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doing this?
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Yeah, I know it sounds kind of crazy, but nothing.
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Like in this moment, I have to be very focused.
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You're holding not just the snake, but your partner's life.
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In that moment, you cannot feel no fear. You have
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to be fearless.
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And so with the snake's head in his hands... Graven
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uses large tweezers to guide the fangs of the snake
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into a jar.
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And then, the moment of truth.
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Graven starts pressing down on the snake's venom gland, which
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sits behind the snake's eye. Now, normally in the wild,
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to release its own venom, the snakey will squish muscles
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around the gland, squeezing the venom out. But with the
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snake sedated, it's up to Graven to coax the venom out.
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by gently pushing on the right spot. This is sometimes
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called milking the snake. But Graven likes to say.
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So we have to do a little massage.
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Massage?
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A massage, yeah. You have to do it gently.
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What does it feel like when you massage its gland?
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Actually, you can feel when it's full of venom. So it's...
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I don't see something similar to give you an example.
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Is it like when you have a really big pimple
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and you're like squishing out the oil in the pimple?
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No, not at all.
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What about like a chicken when you make like cooking chicken?
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Does it?
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No, nah.
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No.
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At 2 a.m.
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Tonight, you'll wake up and you'll be like, it's like
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my grandmother's hair.
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Yeah, I got it, Grammy, yeah.
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Eventually, Graven was like, think about it like a slice
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of orange sitting under snake skin, and you're juicing it
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little by little until you see drops of yellow liquid
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coming from the fangs. Once Graven has collected that snake juice,
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he passes it off, and we go to our next step.
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For that, we're going to leave Graven, so say goodbye
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to the snakes.
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Bye.
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And it's time to call in the cavalry.
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Yes.
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To make the.
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Antivenom that saved Pete's life, we're going to now need
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another group of animals.
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Horses.
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At the center where Pete's antivenom was made, there's about
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120 horses.
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And I know what you're thinking about them. Do they
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have names?
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Yes, they have names. In fact, there was one horse
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one time with my name, so I was very proud
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of that.
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This is Jose Maria Gutierrez. He used to head up
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this institute and now he works there as a professor.
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And Jose Maria, he loves the horses and doesn't play favorites.
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I like all of them. They're really fantastic animals.
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And these fantastic animals are literally the workhorses that pump
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out most of the antivenom that we use today, which
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must be hard to do, right? Working the microscopes with
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their big hooves. Luckily, they're making the antivenom inside their body.
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Here's how.
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The first time Chris and Maria's team start working with
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a horse, they'll take that venom that Graven got from
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the snakes, and then.
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You inject little amounts of venom into horses.
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And when a horse is first injected with, say, a
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tiny amount of venom, how do they react?
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Are they like, nay? Do you think it would be
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like a mosquito bite?
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I think it would be a little more than that
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because we are injecting a toxic substance, but you don't
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see any evidence of tissue damage.
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And they don't seem pissed off or anything.
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Exactly.
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The horse might have a bit of swelling, but nothing
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too serious. These horses then get injected again and again
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every two weeks or so. But here is why we're
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doing all of this. Because all the while.
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the.
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Horse's immune system is creating antibodies against this venom. You're
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kind of vaccinating the horse against it.
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And then after several of these injections, usually a couple
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of months, for instance, at that point, the horses are bled.
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Bled.
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About two months into all of this, they'll take around
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six litres of blood from the horse, which Jose Maria
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says is the horsey equivalent of donating a bag of
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blood at a blood bank. And that's why they use horses,
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by the way. because they're big animals with lots of
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blood to give. Some labs use sheep instead. And so,
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after all of this, we get the very thing we've
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been waiting for. The miraculous drug that can fend off
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that super complicated cocktail of venom.
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The horse antibodies. That's what we're going to harness.
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The antibodies get purified from the horse's blood, put into
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a vial, and freeze-dried.
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And remarkably.
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Even though the antibodies come from horses, they work in us.
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So once that stuff gets injected into people like Pete.
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So these antibodies, these horse antibodies would get into the bloodstream.
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They find the toxins and then they block the action
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of the toxins.
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And so even though we say antibodies as if it's
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like one thing. Within that vial of antivenom, there could
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be 50 different antibodies that go after 50 different toxins
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in the blood.
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Exactly.
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Actually, it's a mixture of antibodies. And there are antibodies
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against each of the toxins.
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And Jose Maria says that after all this work, each
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bag of horse blood will eventually get you enough antivenom
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to treat roughly 15 people.
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That's it.
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And even then, you've only made a treatment against whatever
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venom you injected into that horse. So, for example, if
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you just made Fertilance antivenom, that's not going to work
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on someone who got bit by a coral snake.
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It wouldn't work at all. It wouldn't work at all
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because the antibodies are specific.
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And get this.
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This way of making antivenom with all the horses and
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the snakes, the basic steps haven't changed since this process
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was first invented. in the late 1800s. There's been some
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improvements along the way, like sometimes horses will get injected
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with more than one kind of snake venom. So the
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horses pump out antibodies for, say, three different kinds of snakes.
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But still, what all of this means is that to
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make antivenom for all the scary snakes across the globe,
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you have to repeat all this stuff over and over again.
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And that's what we do.
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Around the world, in Indonesia, India, Egypt, South Africa, Australia,
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there are labs like Jose Maria's piled high with horses
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injected with venom and pumping out anti-venom for all kinds
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of snakes. And bottom line, to make enough of this
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stuff for everyone who needs it, you need thousands of horses.
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Yes, you do need huge amount of horses. You need
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huge facilities. It has been said that just in Sub-Saharan Africa,
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there is a need for 1 million bikes. of antivenom
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per year.
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Wow.
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This is a big problem. So the whole thing is
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really complicated.
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Because this process is so bespoke.
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According to a report from The Lancet, there are more
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than 100 dangerous snakes out there that we just don't
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make antivenom for. So if you get bit by one
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of those snakes....
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Good luck. And even if a vial is waiting for
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you at a hospital, you might run into another problem.
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Because we're injecting bits of a horse into a human,
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people can have severe allergic reactions, like anaphylaxis. So that
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is how we make antivenom today. And the bones of
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it have been the same for more than 100 years.
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But after the break... Things are finally about to change. Hey,
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it's Wendy from Science Versus, and I want to tell
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you about a podcast that I.
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Love, Science Friday.
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They cover all sorts of amazing things in the weird
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and wonderful world of science, from how concussions affect our
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brain to the inner secrets of a snake with.
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A spider on its Welcome back.
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Today, we're talking about nasty snake bites and the kind
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of antiquated way that we make the one and only
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treatment that can save you from them, antivenom. But it's
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time for this life-saving medicine to enter the digital age,
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so to speak. And recently, something happened that breathed new
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life into the world.
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Of snake bites.
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In 2017, the World Health Organization got all hot and
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bothered about this and dubbed snakebites the most important kind
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of neglected tropical disease. And for snakebites, which kill some 100,000
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people each year worldwide, this is like winning an Oscar.
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You get extra attention and more money for research. Here's
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Professor Jose Maria Gutierrez again.
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Things have really changed. The world in general is paying
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much more attention to this disease. And it's really exciting.
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And one of the exciting things that scientists are cooking up? Well,
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think about it a bit like a universal antivenom. One
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drug to battle lots of different kinds of snakes. So remember,
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a big problem with creating a drug like this is
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that scary snakes have a bunch of toxins in their venoms.
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Attacking your body in slightly different ways.
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And then on top of that, different kinds of snakes
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have different stuff in their venom. So that's why we
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need the horses to make all those antibodies against all
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those different toxins. Because if we tried to cook up
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a drug like that without the horses around, well, Dr.
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Christina Zdenek says, forget about it.
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Oh, well, you're talking about thousands upon thousands of toxins today.
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like a ridiculous variety. So you really wouldn't have so
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much of a chance. You really need to find a
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way to group them together.
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Group them.
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And this is the new way forward, how scientists are
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tackling this problem now. By scouring through the dangerous stuff
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in venom, they've found that there are these big families
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of toxins.
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That do similar stuff.
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Like there's this one family that goes after our blood vessels.
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It's the ones that are punching holes in them. These
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are enzymes, and they're actually found in the venom of
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heaps of snakes all around the world. So scientists figure, hey,
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00:23:56.269 --> 00:23:59.650
if we can stop those enzymes from causing all that damage,
440
00:24:00.369 --> 00:24:03.970
then maybe we could have one treatment that works against
441
00:24:04.390 --> 00:24:06.210
all those different kinds of snakes.
442
00:24:07.579 --> 00:24:10.299
And one nerd who's testing this out is.
443
00:24:11.259 --> 00:24:13.579
Yeah, so I'm Laurel Blescu.
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00:24:14.369 --> 00:24:16.750
Laura is at the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine in
445
00:24:16.769 --> 00:24:20.099
the UK. And she told us about something that might
446
00:24:20.150 --> 00:24:23.839
help them tackle that bloody family of toxins. It's an
447
00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:27.980
Achilles heel. You see, the enzymes in that family need
448
00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:30.640
this very particular thing to work.
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00:24:31.980 --> 00:24:32.309
Zinc.
450
00:24:33.369 --> 00:24:36.490
That's... What makes the enzyme tick, I would say. So
451
00:24:36.529 --> 00:24:39.990
what makes it active. And therefore, if you block it,
452
00:24:40.009 --> 00:24:41.769
then the enzyme can no longer function.
453
00:24:42.410 --> 00:24:45.049
And it turns out there are drugs out there that
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00:24:45.109 --> 00:24:48.970
block zinc. So Laura and her team took one of those,
455
00:24:49.539 --> 00:24:52.160
combined it with another drug that deals with other stuff
456
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:55.559
in snake venom, and put it to the ultimate test.
457
00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:00.339
They enlisted some heroic little white mice and injected them
458
00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:03.299
with snake venom from some of the most dangerous snakes
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00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:04.059
in the world.
460
00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:08.519
We are looking at vipers from Africa, from India, from
461
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:09.339
Central America.
462
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:11.730
They waited a bit to let the venom set in.
463
00:25:12.619 --> 00:25:16.450
then gave them her concoction, the two drugs. Now, if
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00:25:16.490 --> 00:25:18.589
this didn't work, chances are.
465
00:25:18.970 --> 00:25:22.009
These mice would all die within a four-hour window.
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00:25:22.589 --> 00:25:26.599
But instead, the team saw something different. The mice started
467
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:33.480
moving around, sniffing. They seemed to be recovering. And hours later.
468
00:25:33.980 --> 00:25:37.130
Oh, these animals are still alive and look healthy.
469
00:25:38.369 --> 00:25:39.529
And how were you feeling?
470
00:25:39.710 --> 00:25:46.109
Yeah, I was feeling great. I didn't expect it to
471
00:25:46.190 --> 00:25:50.309
work so well against Venoms that are so different from
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00:25:50.369 --> 00:25:50.730
each other.
473
00:25:50.750 --> 00:25:54.970
Yeah, to work for a Fertilance from Central America and
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00:25:55.029 --> 00:25:57.930
then an Asian, you had Saw-scaled Viper.
475
00:25:58.009 --> 00:25:58.289
Yeah.
476
00:25:59.450 --> 00:26:02.230
How big is that in the world of anti-Venom?
477
00:26:02.670 --> 00:26:05.410
This is amazing. It's really great.
478
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:10.880
Now, science being science, we've still got work to do.
479
00:26:10.900 --> 00:26:14.839
The venom did kill one of the mice after 18 hours.
480
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:18.569
Laura's cocktail of drugs won't help for all snakes out there.
481
00:26:18.589 --> 00:26:22.029
And of course, we need to show that this works
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00:26:22.289 --> 00:26:27.670
in people. But ultimately, if this new way of tackling
483
00:26:27.750 --> 00:26:32.049
snake venom does work in humans, then that would mean
484
00:26:32.309 --> 00:26:35.930
that after more than 100 years of injecting all those
485
00:26:36.049 --> 00:26:40.839
horses with all that venom, then things could start to change.
486
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:44.329
And maybe in the future, we could cook up these
487
00:26:44.369 --> 00:26:47.549
drugs in labs, just like regular medicine.
488
00:26:48.009 --> 00:26:51.789
You wouldn't need, you know, farms to inoculate all of
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00:26:51.829 --> 00:26:55.009
these animals. It's massively different.
490
00:26:55.829 --> 00:26:57.809
And this is just one exciting thing that's in the
491
00:26:57.849 --> 00:27:00.430
pipeline that could change the way we treat snake bites.
492
00:27:01.049 --> 00:27:03.130
There are other drugs that mess with zinc that are
493
00:27:03.150 --> 00:27:06.109
being tested, and one is actually going through a clinical
494
00:27:06.150 --> 00:27:10.279
trial in people right now. Other researchers are looking at
495
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:14.349
genetically modifying human antibodies so that they can battle against
496
00:27:14.410 --> 00:27:18.930
some types of venom. So, perhaps one day, all those
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00:27:18.990 --> 00:27:21.529
horses will finally be able to hang up their lab
498
00:27:21.569 --> 00:27:28.000
coats and retire. Okay, so just before we shed our
499
00:27:28.059 --> 00:27:31.960
skin and say goodbye, you gotta know that even though
500
00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:36.490
snake bites can be scary and snakes can be deadly...
501
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:40.259
Researchers like Christina aren't ready to throw snakes in the
502
00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:41.440
bin once and for all.
503
00:27:41.809 --> 00:27:44.049
Goodness, no, that would be horrible.
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00:27:44.650 --> 00:27:46.789
She says that some of the toxins in venom are
505
00:27:46.890 --> 00:27:50.930
actually helping us. They've been put into medicines. Like, there
506
00:27:50.970 --> 00:27:53.750
are drugs on the market right now based on snake venom,
507
00:27:54.130 --> 00:27:58.109
treating stuff like high blood pressure and blood clots. And
508
00:27:58.509 --> 00:28:01.309
away from all that, as Christina and I were talking
509
00:28:01.369 --> 00:28:04.569
about snakes... She basically went Steve Irwin on me.
510
00:28:05.230 --> 00:28:07.930
I've loved snakes ever since I can remember. You know,
511
00:28:07.950 --> 00:28:11.250
I sort of skipped the fear phase and went straight
512
00:28:11.269 --> 00:28:12.210
into fascination.
513
00:28:12.289 --> 00:28:14.809
What were you fascinated by in particular?
514
00:28:15.450 --> 00:28:19.230
Oh, gosh, their forked tongue. I was fascinated with how
515
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:21.259
they eat, you know, consuming prey whole.
516
00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:22.660
You know, they don't chew it.
517
00:28:23.339 --> 00:28:26.220
They don't have legs like us. Just the way that
518
00:28:26.259 --> 00:28:30.900
they move, that sort of caterpillar motion. Oh, some of
519
00:28:30.940 --> 00:28:35.970
the patterns on snakes, it's just amazing. It's hard to
520
00:28:36.009 --> 00:28:37.450
deny they are beautiful.
521
00:28:37.970 --> 00:28:38.609
They really are.
522
00:28:40.990 --> 00:28:43.940
And even Pete Bethune, whose leg is getting better and
523
00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:46.839
better by the day, holds a little place in his
524
00:28:46.900 --> 00:28:48.359
heart for the snake that bit him.
525
00:28:49.130 --> 00:28:52.609
I'm happy that guy's still alive and up there chilling out, mate.
526
00:28:53.009 --> 00:28:55.559
So you don't hold a grudge against the snakey?
527
00:28:55.819 --> 00:28:58.880
No, I don't hold a grudge against the snake. He
528
00:28:58.900 --> 00:29:00.279
was just doing snake things.
529
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:04.440
That's Science Versus.
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00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:11.119
This week we have 117 citations.
531
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:11.200
117!
532
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:14.099
So if you want to read more about snakes.
533
00:29:13.900 --> 00:29:16.460
Or you have any questions about this episode, then just
534
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:18.460
look at the show notes and you can click on
535
00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:20.069
our link to the transcript.
536
00:29:20.349 --> 00:29:21.710
You'll see them all there.
537
00:29:22.490 --> 00:29:26.059
And if you want to see beautiful photos of snakes,
538
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.539
then you got to head to our Instagram account.
539
00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:30.720
It's science underscore VS.
540
00:29:31.259 --> 00:29:33.599
While you're there, you can also see a photo of
541
00:29:33.700 --> 00:29:35.069
Pete's puffed up leg.
542
00:29:35.369 --> 00:29:36.329
Looks pretty gnarly.
543
00:29:37.269 --> 00:29:40.569
Not only all of that, but we've actually collected with
544
00:29:40.589 --> 00:29:44.039
the podcast 99% Invisible to make a version of this
545
00:29:44.150 --> 00:29:45.839
very episode with them.
546
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:48.680
It's so much fun. So you should.
547
00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:51.779
Definitely keep an eye on the 99% Invisible feed and
548
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:55.339
you should see an episode about snakes and anti-venom popping
549
00:29:55.380 --> 00:30:03.299
up very soon. All right, time for the credits. This
550
00:30:03.339 --> 00:30:05.880
episode was produced by me, Wendy Zuckerman, with help from
551
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:09.390
Meryl Horne, Rose Rimler, Michelle Dang, Nick Delrose and Taylor White.
552
00:30:09.890 --> 00:30:13.410
We're edited by Blythe Terrell. Backchecking by Erica Akiko Howard.
553
00:30:13.849 --> 00:30:16.799
Mix and sound design by Bumi Hidaka. Music written by
554
00:30:16.859 --> 00:30:19.700
Peter Leonard, Marcus Begala, Emma Munger and Bobby Lord.
555
00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:21.240
A huge thanks to all.
556
00:30:21.140 --> 00:30:23.200
The researchers we got in touch with for this episode,
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00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:28.519
including Professor Abdul Razak Habib, Dr Gavin Smith, Professor Abina Kreen,
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00:30:28.819 --> 00:30:33.200
Professor Nick Casewell, Dr Jessica Karari and Dr Tariq Mohamed.
559
00:30:33.819 --> 00:30:36.529
And a special thanks to Pia Gedkari, the Zuckerman family
560
00:30:36.809 --> 00:30:39.950
and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you
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00:30:39.970 --> 00:30:40.309
next time.
