WEBVTT
00:00:47.130 --> 00:00:53.370
We're not just teaching skills, but we're helping shape how they see themselves as learners.
00:00:53.370 --> 00:01:02.570
And over the years, it has become really clear to me that teaching is a privilege, and literacy is at the heart of it.
00:01:04.730 --> 00:01:09.689
Welcome to Reading Realities, a podcast about what it really takes to change how we teach reading.
00:01:09.689 --> 00:01:14.969
Each episode, I talk with an educator about the instructional and mindset shifts they're making.
00:01:14.969 --> 00:01:22.890
Because the truth is, changing reading instruction isn't simple, can be challenging, can be messy, and no one should have to figure it out alone.
00:01:22.890 --> 00:01:27.930
I'm your host, Rose Else Mitchell, Executive Director of the Science of Reading Center at SUNY New Paltz.
00:01:27.930 --> 00:01:36.650
I've spent my career in education, as a teacher, a learning and product designer, and working alongside schools and systems as they navigate change.
00:01:36.650 --> 00:01:44.090
Today I'm joined by Danielle Honsberger, a first grade teacher and a [former] literacy coach based in Prince Edward Island in Canada.
00:01:44.090 --> 00:01:46.810
Danielle's our first international guest.
00:01:46.810 --> 00:01:53.930
Danielle shares her journey from supporting teachers as a literacy coach to returning to a grade one classroom.
00:01:53.930 --> 00:02:04.250
We talk about what it looks like to teach foundational reading skills in a way that's both explicit, systematic, and deeply responsive to each young learner.
00:02:04.250 --> 00:02:05.769
Let's get started.
00:02:11.050 --> 00:02:13.850
I'm here today with Danielle Honsberger.
00:02:13.850 --> 00:02:15.290
Thank you for being here.
00:02:15.689 --> 00:02:16.889
It's a pleasure to be here.
00:02:17.449 --> 00:02:19.449
You're at school today, so we might hear the bells.
00:02:19.689 --> 00:02:20.090
I am.
00:02:20.090 --> 00:02:20.569
I am.
00:02:20.569 --> 00:02:24.009
The students are just coming in from recess right now to have their lunch.
00:02:24.009 --> 00:02:25.610
So yes, you may hear some bells.
00:02:25.850 --> 00:02:46.009
Well, one of the things I'm most excited about is uh something that a lot of people who've left the classroom think about, which is after doing all kinds of things, whether it might be leadership, being a principal, being in a district or a board office as you were, but a lot of people who were drawn to teaching are drawn to going back to the classroom.
00:02:46.009 --> 00:02:52.650
And maybe you could just tell us a little bit about how you ended back in the classroom and um what took you there.
00:02:52.969 --> 00:02:53.610
Absolutely.
00:02:53.610 --> 00:02:56.170
So I am truly honored to be here, Rose.
00:02:56.170 --> 00:03:03.370
As you mentioned, I've been a primary teacher for nearly 20 years, mostly in a grade one classroom.
00:03:03.370 --> 00:03:09.370
And I also had the opportunity to work as a literacy coach with the Department of Education.
00:03:09.370 --> 00:03:14.090
And I was fortunate enough to support teachers across the province.
00:03:14.090 --> 00:03:18.969
And honestly, I've been wanting to be a teacher for as long as I can remember.
00:03:18.969 --> 00:03:26.090
I remember picking up a grade three biography I wrote, and it said, When I grow up, I'm going to be a teacher.
00:03:26.090 --> 00:03:29.210
Not I want to be a teacher, I'm going to be a teacher.
00:03:29.210 --> 00:03:36.969
So my passion for primary literacy really comes from my own experiences as a student.
00:03:36.969 --> 00:03:45.770
So even though I had great teachers, I often was left feeling academically frustrated at times.
00:03:45.770 --> 00:03:51.050
And that has really shaped how I approach my own teaching.
00:03:51.050 --> 00:03:56.729
Because when you understand that feeling, it changes how you support your students.
00:03:56.729 --> 00:04:01.370
Early on, I realized teaching is such a privilege.
00:04:01.370 --> 00:04:09.689
And especially in the primary years, we're not just teaching skills, but we're helping shape how they see themselves as learners.
00:04:09.689 --> 00:04:17.050
As I entered into my coaching position, it was the biggest shift in my practice was about to occur.
00:04:17.050 --> 00:04:19.529
And it was structured literacy.
00:04:19.529 --> 00:04:25.769
And I wanted to learn more about this so that I could support teachers through this.
00:04:25.769 --> 00:04:35.769
So I had a chance to support teachers with foundations using decodable texts and really focusing on explicit skill-based instruction.
00:04:35.769 --> 00:04:46.330
What I was seeing really I was missing my students, and I wanted a chance to really get back into my own environment and give what I've learned back to them.
00:04:46.330 --> 00:04:52.970
So being back in my classroom, I've seen how powerful this approach can be.
00:04:52.970 --> 00:05:02.250
And when you really meet each child where they're at, you start to see their skills and their confidence grow.
00:05:02.250 --> 00:05:13.610
And to me, when I looked at education and going into the teaching career, really my end goal was helping my students see themselves as capable, but as lifelong learners.
00:05:13.850 --> 00:05:16.170
I love that self-determination that you had.
00:05:16.170 --> 00:05:18.569
How old were you when you said I will be a teacher?
00:05:18.810 --> 00:05:19.610
Grade three.
00:05:19.769 --> 00:05:19.930
Yeah.
00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:21.209
I just I knew it.
00:05:21.209 --> 00:05:22.810
I I knew it.
00:05:23.370 --> 00:05:28.089
So you weren't always a teacher who used structured literacy.
00:05:28.089 --> 00:05:30.009
You weren't trained that way initially, right?
00:05:30.329 --> 00:05:30.569
Right.
00:05:30.569 --> 00:05:35.689
We never had a structured phonics program, and now we do.
00:05:35.689 --> 00:05:39.129
And it's made the world of a difference.
00:05:39.129 --> 00:05:48.329
The shift wasn't easy, and there were significant moments throughout my career where I knew it was time to make that shift.
00:05:48.329 --> 00:05:53.530
But the biggest shift really happened during my time as a literacy coach.
00:05:53.530 --> 00:06:02.970
My colleagues and I, we were planning professional learning development for our grade one teachers, and it was called using data to develop skilled readers.
00:06:02.970 --> 00:06:09.769
And it actually brought me back to something that used to frustrate me in my own classroom.
00:06:09.769 --> 00:06:20.889
So those moments when I'd sit down with a student, I'd pull out a benchmark text, and their accuracy would come in at 90% or below.
00:06:20.889 --> 00:06:24.490
And I remember feeling so deflated.
00:06:24.490 --> 00:06:29.370
I was putting everything I had into teaching my young readers.
00:06:29.370 --> 00:06:31.530
So why wasn't it showing up in the data?
00:06:31.530 --> 00:06:35.129
And I feel like that was a frustration for many.
00:06:35.129 --> 00:06:43.050
And as we planned the PD, we decided to look at benchmark assessments through a different lens.
00:06:43.050 --> 00:06:46.089
So we looked more through a critical lens.
00:06:46.089 --> 00:06:52.889
And since it was early in the year when we were planning the PD, it was October, um, around October.
00:06:52.889 --> 00:06:56.970
So we chose a level text we might expect our students to be reading.
00:06:57.209 --> 00:06:58.410
In what grade were the students?
00:06:58.810 --> 00:06:59.129
Grade one.
00:06:59.290 --> 00:07:00.410
So it was the loose tooth.
00:07:00.410 --> 00:07:06.170
And we really dug into the reading record that came out at 90%.
00:07:06.170 --> 00:07:16.490
And instead of focusing on the MSV and the accuracy, we put that aside and looked closely at each error.
00:07:16.490 --> 00:07:24.490
And through the process, we asked ourselves, are these skills that have been explicitly taught to our students in front of us?
00:07:24.490 --> 00:07:29.930
And at that point in the year, our teachers are following a scope and sequence for foundations.
00:07:29.930 --> 00:07:32.250
So they would be unit three.
00:07:32.250 --> 00:07:36.569
So they've learned CVC and they were getting to know digraphs.
00:07:36.569 --> 00:07:48.089
So when we pulled the reading record and we started to really zoom in on those errors, it was even though it was 90%, they were doing some really amazing things.
00:07:48.089 --> 00:07:55.850
So for an example, one of the words was loose and the student read loss.
00:07:55.850 --> 00:07:58.730
Well, they're attending to the beginning, the middle, and the end.
00:07:58.730 --> 00:08:02.810
They, from what they've been taught, who makes oh oct was off.
00:08:03.050 --> 00:08:03.209
Right.
00:08:03.530 --> 00:08:04.250
So, right?
00:08:04.250 --> 00:08:06.569
So really that was an amazing attempt.
00:08:06.569 --> 00:08:08.810
They're they're applying the skills that we taught them.
00:08:08.810 --> 00:08:13.930
And oh, well, that's a Val team that doesn't come till much later in the year.
00:08:14.250 --> 00:08:16.970
And a magic E.
00:08:17.290 --> 00:08:18.490
Right, and the magic E.
00:08:18.490 --> 00:08:22.889
And so then we looked at, they said toss for tooth.
00:08:22.889 --> 00:08:24.089
Well, they were getting the T.
00:08:24.089 --> 00:08:28.250
They even got the diagraph at the end, which is a huge celebration.
00:08:28.250 --> 00:08:30.329
But they were doing some pretty amazing things.
00:08:30.329 --> 00:08:33.210
They were getting was, which was a kindergarten trick word.
00:08:33.210 --> 00:08:36.009
Um like that's a huge celebration.
00:08:36.009 --> 00:08:45.690
They even self-corrected later in the text for loss, they self-corrected it and said loose, which is showing their reading for meaning.
00:08:45.690 --> 00:08:54.809
So even though the text was came out really hard, we really celebrated that wow, they are applying the skills that we have taught.
00:08:54.809 --> 00:08:57.690
So for me, that was the biggest aha moment.
00:08:57.690 --> 00:09:05.769
I had to sit back and really think about how I was analyzing my reading data and in turn how I was teaching reading.
00:09:06.170 --> 00:09:06.490
Right.
00:09:06.490 --> 00:09:09.210
And the relationship between assessment and instruction.
00:09:09.610 --> 00:09:09.930
Absolutely.
00:09:10.410 --> 00:09:18.250
Yeah, because ultimately what you're hoping for is that it's becoming more fluent and that that is that that's evident.
00:09:18.250 --> 00:09:22.329
And that's a very different kind of assessment than absolutely.
00:09:22.329 --> 00:09:31.529
Tell us a little bit about how you pair structured literacy with other kinds of reading development, especially in primary years.
00:09:31.529 --> 00:09:36.970
Maybe you could just talk a little bit about how structured literacy sits within the greater reading block.
00:09:37.289 --> 00:09:39.450
Our reading block has shifted quite a bit.
00:09:39.450 --> 00:09:43.690
So I've moved from traditional guided reading to my small group reading.
00:09:43.690 --> 00:09:49.289
And to be honest, that shift was probably one of the scariest for me.
00:09:49.289 --> 00:09:54.009
But now that I have made that shift, it's really not that scary.
00:09:54.250 --> 00:09:54.490
Right.
00:09:54.730 --> 00:09:54.970
Right?
00:09:55.049 --> 00:09:57.130
So we always 2020 hindsight.
00:09:57.130 --> 00:09:59.769
So talk a little bit about why that was scary.
00:09:59.769 --> 00:10:05.130
I have some hypotheses that I've heard from others, but I'd like to know what was personally scary for you.
00:10:05.130 --> 00:10:06.890
Like what did you feel you had to let go of?
00:10:07.210 --> 00:10:16.410
Control and the, you know, we I think we've had it ingrained in our minds that I have to get this reader to this point by the end of the year.
00:10:16.410 --> 00:10:19.690
And we really raced through I raced through it.
00:10:19.690 --> 00:10:22.009
And to me, guided reading was safe.
00:10:22.009 --> 00:10:23.450
I knew how to do it.
00:10:23.450 --> 00:10:27.210
I've been doing it for years, and I was comfortable with that.
00:10:27.210 --> 00:10:34.089
And I think shifting to small group, it's you really need to know your readers and you need to know them well.
00:10:34.089 --> 00:10:40.890
And you need to know what phonic skill are they needing the most support in right now.
00:10:40.890 --> 00:10:45.930
And I use a lot of data to help determine my grouping of students.
00:10:45.930 --> 00:10:54.170
But for them to be able to practice explicitly taught skills in a connected text is amazing.
00:10:54.170 --> 00:11:04.009
And I think with guided reading, I would pull a level book off the shelf, I would read with my students, then we would talk about the book, and then it was done.
00:11:04.009 --> 00:11:08.250
And with small group, it's it's completely different.
00:11:08.250 --> 00:11:10.009
You're working on accuracy.
00:11:10.009 --> 00:11:14.890
You know, are they able to tap and blend and decode the skills that have been taught?
00:11:14.890 --> 00:11:16.089
And can they do it accurately?
00:11:16.089 --> 00:11:22.730
It's different for every child because what you're looking for is yes, they can accurately decode the words.
00:11:22.730 --> 00:11:28.009
Now are they beginning to do it with less effort and at more ease?
00:11:28.009 --> 00:11:31.690
And then comes fluency and expression.
00:11:31.690 --> 00:11:33.130
So it's not a one
00:11:33.130 --> 00:11:34.490
and meaning making.
00:11:34.730 --> 00:11:35.769
And meaning, absolutely.
00:11:36.089 --> 00:11:36.730
Yeah, exactly.
00:11:36.890 --> 00:11:38.569
So it's not a one and done anymore.
00:11:38.809 --> 00:11:48.970
That that um that idea of effortfulness that decoding takes, I think that's something that leveled readers allowed us to overlook, right?
00:11:48.970 --> 00:11:52.410
In a way we didn't want it to be hard, right?
00:11:52.410 --> 00:11:56.170
And it is hard because our brains are not not designed for reading.
00:11:56.490 --> 00:11:57.289
Absolutely.
00:11:57.609 --> 00:12:02.089
It sounds like decodable text was a big change when you move from leveled readers.
00:12:02.089 --> 00:12:09.130
And I think you shared the story about trying a leveled text after um as a teaching tool after using decodables.
00:12:09.130 --> 00:12:10.170
Can you share what happened?
00:12:10.490 --> 00:12:26.089
So I feel like it kinda went full circle for me because when I was planning the PD and we were actually looking at a leveled benchmark assessment, and we were looking at the reading record, and we were really zooming in on the errors, and that was my aha moment.
00:12:26.089 --> 00:12:27.849
It was in June.
00:12:27.849 --> 00:12:30.890
I decided to, I thought, well, you know what?
00:12:30.890 --> 00:12:33.930
I'm going to read this leveled book.
00:12:33.930 --> 00:12:35.769
So I pulled the level book out.
00:12:35.769 --> 00:12:42.970
And it's a book that I would have read in the past, and it was kind of where the student in the past would be expected to be.
00:12:42.970 --> 00:12:47.049
So a level I, that I'm gonna get them to that level I and we're gonna get there.
00:12:47.049 --> 00:12:49.769
And and to be honest, I was a little nervous.
00:12:49.769 --> 00:12:52.250
Um, but I was like, come on, let's read this.
00:12:52.250 --> 00:13:09.369
So in the past, it would haunt me because I would remember feeling so helpless and frustrated because the students were trying to solve the words, or they were looking at the picture or guessing, or they would stare at me and just want me to give it to them.
00:13:09.369 --> 00:13:11.210
This was a different experience.
00:13:11.210 --> 00:13:13.049
Altogether, I was blown away.
00:13:13.049 --> 00:13:16.970
They were reading the book, they actually owned the book.
00:13:16.970 --> 00:13:20.250
I said to the child after I'm like, You owned that.
00:13:20.250 --> 00:13:31.049
They were reading it, they were decoding, they were, it was fluent, it was phrased, the intonation was great, they were self-correcting, they were doing amazing things.
00:13:31.049 --> 00:13:42.410
It clicked there for me because after I was done and I was talking to a colleague about it, we often compare decodables as and and a lot of people have compared it to this.
00:13:42.410 --> 00:13:46.089
I know Wiley Blevins and other people, but it's like riding a two-wheeler bike.
00:13:46.089 --> 00:13:47.049
That's our goal.
00:13:47.049 --> 00:13:51.690
And sometimes you have training wheels on for a bit longer than others.
00:13:51.690 --> 00:13:59.049
I felt like this child was riding off into the sunset on his two-wheeler, and he did not need the training wheels anymore.
00:13:59.049 --> 00:14:03.369
And I thought to myself, I'm like, whoa, this works.
00:14:03.369 --> 00:14:10.490
Not only are we teaching students to be skilled readers, we're teaching them to be confident readers.
00:14:10.490 --> 00:14:13.849
I witnessed, and I couldn't wait to share it with the grade two team.
00:14:14.170 --> 00:14:17.130
I can see the joy in your face as you're talking about that.
00:14:17.130 --> 00:14:30.970
So if we were joined today by a new teacher who was coming to the school and who was pretty new to teaching phonics, what would be that first little step that you would suggest they do?
00:14:31.210 --> 00:14:32.250
That's a tricky question.
00:14:32.250 --> 00:14:33.690
Ask for help.
00:14:33.690 --> 00:14:45.450
It's I think one of the things that really sticks with me is I feel like I was able to make this shift because I was not alone.
00:14:45.450 --> 00:14:48.650
And I feel very fortunate.
00:14:48.650 --> 00:14:57.450
I had support, I had guidance, we asked questions, I had colleagues that we bounced ideas off of, and we just did it together.
00:14:57.450 --> 00:15:03.930
So find someone to join the journey with you so you're not feeling alone and you're not alone.
00:15:03.930 --> 00:15:16.890
Reach out to anyone, your coach, uh teacher that has been doing it maybe a year before you, or maybe 20 years before you, but find someone to help support you along the way because it can be overwhelming.
00:15:16.890 --> 00:15:23.930
But when you see, like I think of my literacy instruction, I really think of it as a puzzle.
00:15:23.930 --> 00:15:32.970
So my phonics piece, my small group, my um meaningful assessments, I see it all connected as a piece.
00:15:32.970 --> 00:15:37.130
And when it's connected, you really see the big picture.
00:15:37.130 --> 00:15:41.849
But when it's not connected, you don't see the picture.
00:15:41.849 --> 00:15:50.410
So it's and when you start to see it all come together in your students in front of you, you can't imagine doing it any other way.
00:15:50.410 --> 00:15:55.930
And I'm to that I'm at that point right now where I really can't imagine doing it any other way.
00:15:56.170 --> 00:15:56.970
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:56.970 --> 00:15:58.730
That's that's a great analogy.
00:15:58.730 --> 00:16:01.769
The other thing I think about, I just finished a puzzle recently, actually.
00:16:01.769 --> 00:16:07.849
You know that habit that you have where you're trying to get the big picture and you go back to whatever it is that you're trying to match.
00:16:07.849 --> 00:16:10.569
And that's the model, that's the anchor.
00:16:10.809 --> 00:16:11.289
Yeah.
00:16:11.529 --> 00:16:14.009
And then sometimes you have to walk away too, right?
00:16:14.009 --> 00:16:18.009
It's just like it's too much, the details too much, it's too overwhelming.
00:16:18.009 --> 00:16:20.250
So I really like that.
00:16:20.569 --> 00:16:24.809
And and for me too, sometimes you have to let go of the guilt.
00:16:24.809 --> 00:16:30.730
I found I really had to look at how I was teaching and let go of some of that guilt.
00:16:30.730 --> 00:16:34.730
And now know better, do better, and now I'm moving forward.
00:16:34.730 --> 00:16:37.130
And a lot of it came with assessment, to be honest.
00:16:37.130 --> 00:16:41.450
That to me, that was kind of assessment was a hard part for me.
00:16:41.450 --> 00:16:48.809
And it's probably one that I I'm always refining my practice, but that would be one that I'm always fine-tuning, assessment.
00:16:48.809 --> 00:17:04.650
And really letting go of that guilt now is so rewarding because now I'm looking at the triangulation of data and I'm looking at okay all of these amazing pieces of data that I'm collecting to see exactly where my kids are and where their next steps are.
00:17:04.650 --> 00:17:06.170
And it's such a big picture.
00:17:06.410 --> 00:17:13.529
So you've described a lot of the things that you do to prepare and to be a really responsive teacher.
00:17:13.529 --> 00:17:24.890
So if I were to come into your classroom today, which would be fun, but PEI is not so close to uh upstate New York, but what would successful reading look like in your classroom today?
00:17:24.890 --> 00:17:34.329
You've described kids, you know, really owning a owning a text and really blending and seeing those those sound spellings in action.
00:17:34.329 --> 00:17:39.289
But on a broader level, what does it really mean to be a reader in your classroom?
00:17:39.609 --> 00:17:40.809
Everyone is a reader.
00:17:40.809 --> 00:17:47.129
It doesn't matter what skill they're working on, and to me, that is what matters.
00:17:47.129 --> 00:17:55.769
Everyone in my classroom sees themselves as a reader, not only a reader, but a reader and writer, because they're applying only these amazing skills also to their writing.
00:17:55.769 --> 00:18:00.730
But everyone sees themselves as a reader and they're confident.
00:18:00.730 --> 00:18:04.649
And I hope I'm shaping them into being lifelong learners.
00:18:04.649 --> 00:18:08.970
So it doesn't matter what skill level they're at, it's how they perceive themselves.
00:18:09.289 --> 00:18:11.769
Oh, I really wish they could join our podcast.
00:18:11.769 --> 00:18:20.649
Um, we didn't really talk about your training um before you became a teacher, but I'm interested with all of the lifelong learning that you've done as a professional.
00:18:20.649 --> 00:18:26.089
What do you understand now about reading and reading development that you didn't 20 years ago?
00:18:26.329 --> 00:18:34.089
I think when I first started my career, and I had it in my head of I'm gonna teach these kids this meaning structure, visual, because that's what he knew.
00:18:34.089 --> 00:18:34.730
And that's great.
00:18:34.730 --> 00:18:35.289
That's okay.
00:18:35.289 --> 00:18:36.089
That's what I was taught.
00:18:36.089 --> 00:18:41.849
Meaning, structural, visual, they're going to read these books and they're gonna be the office readers.
00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:48.250
And I think now I see it differently and I really focus on text.
00:18:48.250 --> 00:18:52.250
I don't move as quickly as I did before, as I mentioned before.
00:18:52.250 --> 00:18:58.569
A child may be on a working on diagraphs, they might need two weeks to work on diagraphs.
00:18:58.569 --> 00:18:59.450
And that's okay.
00:18:59.450 --> 00:19:00.809
That's the time I'm gonna give them.
00:19:00.809 --> 00:19:04.089
It's not a race anymore to get to that level I.
00:19:04.089 --> 00:19:10.809
And that's what I love because I feel like I was pushing them all to get to that level, even if they weren't ready for it.
00:19:10.809 --> 00:19:11.210
Yes.
00:19:14.250 --> 00:19:25.769
Because when people debate, you know, the false division between, you know, reading books and structured literacy, which I think we all know is a false, you know, a false binary.
00:19:25.769 --> 00:19:37.129
They'll often say that the whole notion of leveled reading and all of that, and kids having a sense of themselves as readers, that that was so central to that model and that it was individualized.
00:19:37.129 --> 00:19:44.970
And in fact, one of the challenges with structured literacy is this scope and sequence that you're marching kids through and it's the opposite of individualized.
00:19:44.970 --> 00:19:57.450
So I think it's fascinating that you've turned that upside down and you're saying, actually, no, this rigorous scope and sequence, which is about how we learn to read, is the same and yet incredibly individualized.
00:19:57.690 --> 00:19:58.169
It is.
00:19:58.169 --> 00:19:59.690
It's very individualized.
00:19:59.690 --> 00:20:00.569
It really is.
00:20:00.569 --> 00:20:04.649
And yeah, it's I couldn't imagine right now doing it any other way.
00:20:05.049 --> 00:20:09.690
What is one belief or practice that you would never give up?
00:20:09.929 --> 00:20:16.809
I think I kind of honestly, I feel like I I wouldn't give any of it up.
00:20:16.809 --> 00:20:22.569
So it's hard to say just one because as I mentioned earlier, I see it as a puzzle.
00:20:22.569 --> 00:20:33.210
And I don't think it's a combination of all those practices that allow students to build skills, yeah, gain confidence, and truly see themselves as a reader.
00:20:33.210 --> 00:20:40.569
So if I take one away or I take three pieces of my puzzle away and I just keep this one, I'm not gonna get the same picture.
00:20:41.210 --> 00:20:42.329
And not integrated, right?
00:20:42.329 --> 00:20:54.569
I think one of the things that is no you've made this connection between just even decoding one word to the self-concept that kids have as seeing themselves as readers.
00:20:54.569 --> 00:20:55.849
It can be as small as that.
00:20:55.849 --> 00:21:00.329
What would you say to other teachers who haven't made this shift?
00:21:00.569 --> 00:21:01.210
You can do it.
00:21:01.210 --> 00:21:06.730
And if you take the smallest step, you are moving in the right direction.
00:21:06.730 --> 00:21:12.970
And it's it doesn't happen overnight, but it's a lot of learning and they need to be committed and keep learning.
00:21:12.970 --> 00:21:15.369
And in the end, it's going to be worth it.
00:21:15.369 --> 00:21:18.089
They just need to be, again, kind to themselves.
00:21:18.089 --> 00:21:21.529
They need to be patient, they need to trust the process.
00:21:21.529 --> 00:21:27.929
And I think that can be really hard to trust the process at times, especially a new teacher.
00:21:27.929 --> 00:21:28.329
Yeah.
00:21:28.329 --> 00:21:30.490
And it's also hard for a veteran teacher.
00:21:30.490 --> 00:21:33.369
They've been teaching a certain way for so long.
00:21:33.369 --> 00:21:35.369
And it doesn't mean it was the wrong way.
00:21:35.369 --> 00:21:39.369
Taking the time to dive into that, they'll see a change in their students.
00:21:39.609 --> 00:21:40.169
It's great.
00:21:40.169 --> 00:21:44.809
So we'll finish on um a question which is what are you reading right now yourself?
00:21:44.809 --> 00:21:46.490
We love a personal recommendation.
00:21:46.490 --> 00:21:48.250
It doesn't have to be a professional book.
00:21:48.490 --> 00:21:50.730
But right now I'm reading Finding Focus.
00:21:50.970 --> 00:21:51.289
Cool.
00:21:51.529 --> 00:21:51.769
Yeah.
00:21:51.769 --> 00:21:55.049
Which is which is I'm really enjoying it.
00:21:55.049 --> 00:22:00.089
And I think right now we live in such a busy world, and I'm a mom of two teenagers.
00:22:00.089 --> 00:22:05.609
I have a husband, I have a dog, I have 19, five, and six-year-olds in front of me.
00:22:05.609 --> 00:22:13.690
It's busy, and I feel like I need to slow down and really focus on what truly matters.
00:22:13.690 --> 00:22:15.690
And I'm doing that personally.
00:22:15.929 --> 00:22:17.929
Well, I think that's a great place to end.
00:22:17.929 --> 00:22:22.569
Thank you so much, Danielle, for sharing yourself, your practice, and your learning.
00:22:22.569 --> 00:22:24.409
It's been a really lovely conversation.
00:22:24.809 --> 00:22:25.450
Been a pleasure.
00:22:25.450 --> 00:22:26.730
Thank you, Rose.
00:22:30.649 --> 00:22:33.450
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Reading Realities.
00:22:33.450 --> 00:22:36.409
And thank you, Danielle, for a thoughtful conversation.
00:22:36.409 --> 00:22:42.809
What stands out to me is the way Danielle brings assessment and instruction together into a direct relationship.
00:22:42.809 --> 00:22:53.690
I was struck by her description of structured literacy in the primary grades, not as rigid or limiting, but as something that actually makes instruction more responsive and more individualized.
00:22:53.690 --> 00:23:05.690
When a teacher knows exactly what a student has been taught and what they're ready for next, it becomes possible to meet each student where they are without lowering expectations or slowing anyone down.
00:23:05.690 --> 00:23:10.409
But perhaps most powerful is Danielle's focus on identity.
00:23:10.409 --> 00:23:22.970
That even a very small moment, tapping out a word, successfully decoding a sentence, reading your first decodable book, can shape how a young child sees themselves as a reader.
00:23:23.210 --> 00:23:31.609
If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe so you don't miss what's coming next, and share it with a colleague or an educator in your life who's part of this work too.
00:23:31.609 --> 00:23:36.730
As we continue building this community, it would mean a lot if you could take a moment to rate and review the show.
00:23:36.730 --> 00:23:40.329
It helps us reach more educators doing this important work every day.
00:23:40.329 --> 00:23:53.529
If you'd like to reach out, learn more about our work with educators or systems, or be part of a future conversation with me on reading realities, you can contact us at science of reading [at] newpaltz.edu, which is also in the show notes.
00:23:53.529 --> 00:23:59.210
We'll be back with more conversations from educators learning, reflecting, and refining their practice.
00:23:59.210 --> 00:24:00.889
Thanks for listening.
00:00:47.130 --> 00:00:53.370
We're not just teaching skills, but we're helping shape how they see themselves as learners.
00:00:53.370 --> 00:01:02.570
And over the years, it has become really clear to me that teaching is a privilege, and literacy is at the heart of it.
00:01:04.730 --> 00:01:09.689
Welcome to Reading Realities, a podcast about what it really takes to change how we teach reading.
00:01:09.689 --> 00:01:14.969
Each episode, I talk with an educator about the instructional and mindset shifts they're making.
00:01:14.969 --> 00:01:22.890
Because the truth is, changing reading instruction isn't simple, can be challenging, can be messy, and no one should have to figure it out alone.
00:01:22.890 --> 00:01:27.930
I'm your host, Rose Else Mitchell, Executive Director of the Science of Reading Center at SUNY New Paltz.
00:01:27.930 --> 00:01:36.650
I've spent my career in education, as a teacher, a learning and product designer, and working alongside schools and systems as they navigate change.
00:01:36.650 --> 00:01:44.090
Today I'm joined by Danielle Honsberger, a first grade teacher and a [former] literacy coach based in Prince Edward Island in Canada.
00:01:44.090 --> 00:01:46.810
Danielle's our first international guest.
00:01:46.810 --> 00:01:53.930
Danielle shares her journey from supporting teachers as a literacy coach to returning to a grade one classroom.
00:01:53.930 --> 00:02:04.250
We talk about what it looks like to teach foundational reading skills in a way that's both explicit, systematic, and deeply responsive to each young learner.
00:02:04.250 --> 00:02:05.769
Let's get started.
00:02:11.050 --> 00:02:13.850
I'm here today with Danielle Honsberger.
00:02:13.850 --> 00:02:15.290
Thank you for being here.
00:02:15.689 --> 00:02:16.889
It's a pleasure to be here.
00:02:17.449 --> 00:02:19.449
You're at school today, so we might hear the bells.
00:02:19.689 --> 00:02:20.090
I am.
00:02:20.090 --> 00:02:20.569
I am.
00:02:20.569 --> 00:02:24.009
The students are just coming in from recess right now to have their lunch.
00:02:24.009 --> 00:02:25.610
So yes, you may hear some bells.
00:02:25.850 --> 00:02:46.009
Well, one of the things I'm most excited about is uh something that a lot of people who've left the classroom think about, which is after doing all kinds of things, whether it might be leadership, being a principal, being in a district or a board office as you were, but a lot of people who were drawn to teaching are drawn to going back to the classroom.
00:02:46.009 --> 00:02:52.650
And maybe you could just tell us a little bit about how you ended back in the classroom and um what took you there.
00:02:52.969 --> 00:02:53.610
Absolutely.
00:02:53.610 --> 00:02:56.170
So I am truly honored to be here, Rose.
00:02:56.170 --> 00:03:03.370
As you mentioned, I've been a primary teacher for nearly 20 years, mostly in a grade one classroom.
00:03:03.370 --> 00:03:09.370
And I also had the opportunity to work as a literacy coach with the Department of Education.
00:03:09.370 --> 00:03:14.090
And I was fortunate enough to support teachers across the province.
00:03:14.090 --> 00:03:18.969
And honestly, I've been wanting to be a teacher for as long as I can remember.
00:03:18.969 --> 00:03:26.090
I remember picking up a grade three biography I wrote, and it said, When I grow up, I'm going to be a teacher.
00:03:26.090 --> 00:03:29.210
Not I want to be a teacher, I'm going to be a teacher.
00:03:29.210 --> 00:03:36.969
So my passion for primary literacy really comes from my own experiences as a student.
00:03:36.969 --> 00:03:45.770
So even though I had great teachers, I often was left feeling academically frustrated at times.
00:03:45.770 --> 00:03:51.050
And that has really shaped how I approach my own teaching.
00:03:51.050 --> 00:03:56.729
Because when you understand that feeling, it changes how you support your students.
00:03:56.729 --> 00:04:01.370
Early on, I realized teaching is such a privilege.
00:04:01.370 --> 00:04:09.689
And especially in the primary years, we're not just teaching skills, but we're helping shape how they see themselves as learners.
00:04:09.689 --> 00:04:17.050
As I entered into my coaching position, it was the biggest shift in my practice was about to occur.
00:04:17.050 --> 00:04:19.529
And it was structured literacy.
00:04:19.529 --> 00:04:25.769
And I wanted to learn more about this so that I could support teachers through this.
00:04:25.769 --> 00:04:35.769
So I had a chance to support teachers with foundations using decodable texts and really focusing on explicit skill-based instruction.
00:04:35.769 --> 00:04:46.330
What I was seeing really I was missing my students, and I wanted a chance to really get back into my own environment and give what I've learned back to them.
00:04:46.330 --> 00:04:52.970
So being back in my classroom, I've seen how powerful this approach can be.
00:04:52.970 --> 00:05:02.250
And when you really meet each child where they're at, you start to see their skills and their confidence grow.
00:05:02.250 --> 00:05:13.610
And to me, when I looked at education and going into the teaching career, really my end goal was helping my students see themselves as capable, but as lifelong learners.
00:05:13.850 --> 00:05:16.170
I love that self-determination that you had.
00:05:16.170 --> 00:05:18.569
How old were you when you said I will be a teacher?
00:05:18.810 --> 00:05:19.610
Grade three.
00:05:19.769 --> 00:05:19.930
Yeah.
00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:21.209
I just I knew it.
00:05:21.209 --> 00:05:22.810
I I knew it.
00:05:23.370 --> 00:05:28.089
So you weren't always a teacher who used structured literacy.
00:05:28.089 --> 00:05:30.009
You weren't trained that way initially, right?
00:05:30.329 --> 00:05:30.569
Right.
00:05:30.569 --> 00:05:35.689
We never had a structured phonics program, and now we do.
00:05:35.689 --> 00:05:39.129
And it's made the world of a difference.
00:05:39.129 --> 00:05:48.329
The shift wasn't easy, and there were significant moments throughout my career where I knew it was time to make that shift.
00:05:48.329 --> 00:05:53.530
But the biggest shift really happened during my time as a literacy coach.
00:05:53.530 --> 00:06:02.970
My colleagues and I, we were planning professional learning development for our grade one teachers, and it was called using data to develop skilled readers.
00:06:02.970 --> 00:06:09.769
And it actually brought me back to something that used to frustrate me in my own classroom.
00:06:09.769 --> 00:06:20.889
So those moments when I'd sit down with a student, I'd pull out a benchmark text, and their accuracy would come in at 90% or below.
00:06:20.889 --> 00:06:24.490
And I remember feeling so deflated.
00:06:24.490 --> 00:06:29.370
I was putting everything I had into teaching my young readers.
00:06:29.370 --> 00:06:31.530
So why wasn't it showing up in the data?
00:06:31.530 --> 00:06:35.129
And I feel like that was a frustration for many.
00:06:35.129 --> 00:06:43.050
And as we planned the PD, we decided to look at benchmark assessments through a different lens.
00:06:43.050 --> 00:06:46.089
So we looked more through a critical lens.
00:06:46.089 --> 00:06:52.889
And since it was early in the year when we were planning the PD, it was October, um, around October.
00:06:52.889 --> 00:06:56.970
So we chose a level text we might expect our students to be reading.
00:06:57.209 --> 00:06:58.410
In what grade were the students?
00:06:58.810 --> 00:06:59.129
Grade one.
00:06:59.290 --> 00:07:00.410
So it was the loose tooth.
00:07:00.410 --> 00:07:06.170
And we really dug into the reading record that came out at 90%.
00:07:06.170 --> 00:07:16.490
And instead of focusing on the MSV and the accuracy, we put that aside and looked closely at each error.
00:07:16.490 --> 00:07:24.490
And through the process, we asked ourselves, are these skills that have been explicitly taught to our students in front of us?
00:07:24.490 --> 00:07:29.930
And at that point in the year, our teachers are following a scope and sequence for foundations.
00:07:29.930 --> 00:07:32.250
So they would be unit three.
00:07:32.250 --> 00:07:36.569
So they've learned CVC and they were getting to know digraphs.
00:07:36.569 --> 00:07:48.089
So when we pulled the reading record and we started to really zoom in on those errors, it was even though it was 90%, they were doing some really amazing things.
00:07:48.089 --> 00:07:55.850
So for an example, one of the words was loose and the student read loss.
00:07:55.850 --> 00:07:58.730
Well, they're attending to the beginning, the middle, and the end.
00:07:58.730 --> 00:08:02.810
They, from what they've been taught, who makes oh oct was off.
00:08:03.050 --> 00:08:03.209
Right.
00:08:03.530 --> 00:08:04.250
So, right?
00:08:04.250 --> 00:08:06.569
So really that was an amazing attempt.
00:08:06.569 --> 00:08:08.810
They're they're applying the skills that we taught them.
00:08:08.810 --> 00:08:13.930
And oh, well, that's a Val team that doesn't come till much later in the year.
00:08:14.250 --> 00:08:16.970
And a magic E.
00:08:17.290 --> 00:08:18.490
Right, and the magic E.
00:08:18.490 --> 00:08:22.889
And so then we looked at, they said toss for tooth.
00:08:22.889 --> 00:08:24.089
Well, they were getting the T.
00:08:24.089 --> 00:08:28.250
They even got the diagraph at the end, which is a huge celebration.
00:08:28.250 --> 00:08:30.329
But they were doing some pretty amazing things.
00:08:30.329 --> 00:08:33.210
They were getting was, which was a kindergarten trick word.
00:08:33.210 --> 00:08:36.009
Um like that's a huge celebration.
00:08:36.009 --> 00:08:45.690
They even self-corrected later in the text for loss, they self-corrected it and said loose, which is showing their reading for meaning.
00:08:45.690 --> 00:08:54.809
So even though the text was came out really hard, we really celebrated that wow, they are applying the skills that we have taught.
00:08:54.809 --> 00:08:57.690
So for me, that was the biggest aha moment.
00:08:57.690 --> 00:09:05.769
I had to sit back and really think about how I was analyzing my reading data and in turn how I was teaching reading.
00:09:06.170 --> 00:09:06.490
Right.
00:09:06.490 --> 00:09:09.210
And the relationship between assessment and instruction.
00:09:09.610 --> 00:09:09.930
Absolutely.
00:09:10.410 --> 00:09:18.250
Yeah, because ultimately what you're hoping for is that it's becoming more fluent and that that is that that's evident.
00:09:18.250 --> 00:09:22.329
And that's a very different kind of assessment than absolutely.
00:09:22.329 --> 00:09:31.529
Tell us a little bit about how you pair structured literacy with other kinds of reading development, especially in primary years.
00:09:31.529 --> 00:09:36.970
Maybe you could just talk a little bit about how structured literacy sits within the greater reading block.
00:09:37.289 --> 00:09:39.450
Our reading block has shifted quite a bit.
00:09:39.450 --> 00:09:43.690
So I've moved from traditional guided reading to my small group reading.
00:09:43.690 --> 00:09:49.289
And to be honest, that shift was probably one of the scariest for me.
00:09:49.289 --> 00:09:54.009
But now that I have made that shift, it's really not that scary.
00:09:54.250 --> 00:09:54.490
Right.
00:09:54.730 --> 00:09:54.970
Right?
00:09:55.049 --> 00:09:57.130
So we always 2020 hindsight.
00:09:57.130 --> 00:09:59.769
So talk a little bit about why that was scary.
00:09:59.769 --> 00:10:05.130
I have some hypotheses that I've heard from others, but I'd like to know what was personally scary for you.
00:10:05.130 --> 00:10:06.890
Like what did you feel you had to let go of?
00:10:07.210 --> 00:10:16.410
Control and the, you know, we I think we've had it ingrained in our minds that I have to get this reader to this point by the end of the year.
00:10:16.410 --> 00:10:19.690
And we really raced through I raced through it.
00:10:19.690 --> 00:10:22.009
And to me, guided reading was safe.
00:10:22.009 --> 00:10:23.450
I knew how to do it.
00:10:23.450 --> 00:10:27.210
I've been doing it for years, and I was comfortable with that.
00:10:27.210 --> 00:10:34.089
And I think shifting to small group, it's you really need to know your readers and you need to know them well.
00:10:34.089 --> 00:10:40.890
And you need to know what phonic skill are they needing the most support in right now.
00:10:40.890 --> 00:10:45.930
And I use a lot of data to help determine my grouping of students.
00:10:45.930 --> 00:10:54.170
But for them to be able to practice explicitly taught skills in a connected text is amazing.
00:10:54.170 --> 00:11:04.009
And I think with guided reading, I would pull a level book off the shelf, I would read with my students, then we would talk about the book, and then it was done.
00:11:04.009 --> 00:11:08.250
And with small group, it's it's completely different.
00:11:08.250 --> 00:11:10.009
You're working on accuracy.
00:11:10.009 --> 00:11:14.890
You know, are they able to tap and blend and decode the skills that have been taught?
00:11:14.890 --> 00:11:16.089
And can they do it accurately?
00:11:16.089 --> 00:11:22.730
It's different for every child because what you're looking for is yes, they can accurately decode the words.
00:11:22.730 --> 00:11:28.009
Now are they beginning to do it with less effort and at more ease?
00:11:28.009 --> 00:11:31.690
And then comes fluency and expression.
00:11:31.690 --> 00:11:33.130
So it's not a one
00:11:33.130 --> 00:11:34.490
and meaning making.
00:11:34.730 --> 00:11:35.769
And meaning, absolutely.
00:11:36.089 --> 00:11:36.730
Yeah, exactly.
00:11:36.890 --> 00:11:38.569
So it's not a one and done anymore.
00:11:38.809 --> 00:11:48.970
That that um that idea of effortfulness that decoding takes, I think that's something that leveled readers allowed us to overlook, right?
00:11:48.970 --> 00:11:52.410
In a way we didn't want it to be hard, right?
00:11:52.410 --> 00:11:56.170
And it is hard because our brains are not not designed for reading.
00:11:56.490 --> 00:11:57.289
Absolutely.
00:11:57.609 --> 00:12:02.089
It sounds like decodable text was a big change when you move from leveled readers.
00:12:02.089 --> 00:12:09.130
And I think you shared the story about trying a leveled text after um as a teaching tool after using decodables.
00:12:09.130 --> 00:12:10.170
Can you share what happened?
00:12:10.490 --> 00:12:26.089
So I feel like it kinda went full circle for me because when I was planning the PD and we were actually looking at a leveled benchmark assessment, and we were looking at the reading record, and we were really zooming in on the errors, and that was my aha moment.
00:12:26.089 --> 00:12:27.849
It was in June.
00:12:27.849 --> 00:12:30.890
I decided to, I thought, well, you know what?
00:12:30.890 --> 00:12:33.930
I'm going to read this leveled book.
00:12:33.930 --> 00:12:35.769
So I pulled the level book out.
00:12:35.769 --> 00:12:42.970
And it's a book that I would have read in the past, and it was kind of where the student in the past would be expected to be.
00:12:42.970 --> 00:12:47.049
So a level I, that I'm gonna get them to that level I and we're gonna get there.
00:12:47.049 --> 00:12:49.769
And and to be honest, I was a little nervous.
00:12:49.769 --> 00:12:52.250
Um, but I was like, come on, let's read this.
00:12:52.250 --> 00:13:09.369
So in the past, it would haunt me because I would remember feeling so helpless and frustrated because the students were trying to solve the words, or they were looking at the picture or guessing, or they would stare at me and just want me to give it to them.
00:13:09.369 --> 00:13:11.210
This was a different experience.
00:13:11.210 --> 00:13:13.049
Altogether, I was blown away.
00:13:13.049 --> 00:13:16.970
They were reading the book, they actually owned the book.
00:13:16.970 --> 00:13:20.250
I said to the child after I'm like, You owned that.
00:13:20.250 --> 00:13:31.049
They were reading it, they were decoding, they were, it was fluent, it was phrased, the intonation was great, they were self-correcting, they were doing amazing things.
00:13:31.049 --> 00:13:42.410
It clicked there for me because after I was done and I was talking to a colleague about it, we often compare decodables as and and a lot of people have compared it to this.
00:13:42.410 --> 00:13:46.089
I know Wiley Blevins and other people, but it's like riding a two-wheeler bike.
00:13:46.089 --> 00:13:47.049
That's our goal.
00:13:47.049 --> 00:13:51.690
And sometimes you have training wheels on for a bit longer than others.
00:13:51.690 --> 00:13:59.049
I felt like this child was riding off into the sunset on his two-wheeler, and he did not need the training wheels anymore.
00:13:59.049 --> 00:14:03.369
And I thought to myself, I'm like, whoa, this works.
00:14:03.369 --> 00:14:10.490
Not only are we teaching students to be skilled readers, we're teaching them to be confident readers.
00:14:10.490 --> 00:14:13.849
I witnessed, and I couldn't wait to share it with the grade two team.
00:14:14.170 --> 00:14:17.130
I can see the joy in your face as you're talking about that.
00:14:17.130 --> 00:14:30.970
So if we were joined today by a new teacher who was coming to the school and who was pretty new to teaching phonics, what would be that first little step that you would suggest they do?
00:14:31.210 --> 00:14:32.250
That's a tricky question.
00:14:32.250 --> 00:14:33.690
Ask for help.
00:14:33.690 --> 00:14:45.450
It's I think one of the things that really sticks with me is I feel like I was able to make this shift because I was not alone.
00:14:45.450 --> 00:14:48.650
And I feel very fortunate.
00:14:48.650 --> 00:14:57.450
I had support, I had guidance, we asked questions, I had colleagues that we bounced ideas off of, and we just did it together.
00:14:57.450 --> 00:15:03.930
So find someone to join the journey with you so you're not feeling alone and you're not alone.
00:15:03.930 --> 00:15:16.890
Reach out to anyone, your coach, uh teacher that has been doing it maybe a year before you, or maybe 20 years before you, but find someone to help support you along the way because it can be overwhelming.
00:15:16.890 --> 00:15:23.930
But when you see, like I think of my literacy instruction, I really think of it as a puzzle.
00:15:23.930 --> 00:15:32.970
So my phonics piece, my small group, my um meaningful assessments, I see it all connected as a piece.
00:15:32.970 --> 00:15:37.130
And when it's connected, you really see the big picture.
00:15:37.130 --> 00:15:41.849
But when it's not connected, you don't see the picture.
00:15:41.849 --> 00:15:50.410
So it's and when you start to see it all come together in your students in front of you, you can't imagine doing it any other way.
00:15:50.410 --> 00:15:55.930
And I'm to that I'm at that point right now where I really can't imagine doing it any other way.
00:15:56.170 --> 00:15:56.970
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:56.970 --> 00:15:58.730
That's that's a great analogy.
00:15:58.730 --> 00:16:01.769
The other thing I think about, I just finished a puzzle recently, actually.
00:16:01.769 --> 00:16:07.849
You know that habit that you have where you're trying to get the big picture and you go back to whatever it is that you're trying to match.
00:16:07.849 --> 00:16:10.569
And that's the model, that's the anchor.
00:16:10.809 --> 00:16:11.289
Yeah.
00:16:11.529 --> 00:16:14.009
And then sometimes you have to walk away too, right?
00:16:14.009 --> 00:16:18.009
It's just like it's too much, the details too much, it's too overwhelming.
00:16:18.009 --> 00:16:20.250
So I really like that.
00:16:20.569 --> 00:16:24.809
And and for me too, sometimes you have to let go of the guilt.
00:16:24.809 --> 00:16:30.730
I found I really had to look at how I was teaching and let go of some of that guilt.
00:16:30.730 --> 00:16:34.730
And now know better, do better, and now I'm moving forward.
00:16:34.730 --> 00:16:37.130
And a lot of it came with assessment, to be honest.
00:16:37.130 --> 00:16:41.450
That to me, that was kind of assessment was a hard part for me.
00:16:41.450 --> 00:16:48.809
And it's probably one that I I'm always refining my practice, but that would be one that I'm always fine-tuning, assessment.
00:16:48.809 --> 00:17:04.650
And really letting go of that guilt now is so rewarding because now I'm looking at the triangulation of data and I'm looking at okay all of these amazing pieces of data that I'm collecting to see exactly where my kids are and where their next steps are.
00:17:04.650 --> 00:17:06.170
And it's such a big picture.
00:17:06.410 --> 00:17:13.529
So you've described a lot of the things that you do to prepare and to be a really responsive teacher.
00:17:13.529 --> 00:17:24.890
So if I were to come into your classroom today, which would be fun, but PEI is not so close to uh upstate New York, but what would successful reading look like in your classroom today?
00:17:24.890 --> 00:17:34.329
You've described kids, you know, really owning a owning a text and really blending and seeing those those sound spellings in action.
00:17:34.329 --> 00:17:39.289
But on a broader level, what does it really mean to be a reader in your classroom?
00:17:39.609 --> 00:17:40.809
Everyone is a reader.
00:17:40.809 --> 00:17:47.129
It doesn't matter what skill they're working on, and to me, that is what matters.
00:17:47.129 --> 00:17:55.769
Everyone in my classroom sees themselves as a reader, not only a reader, but a reader and writer, because they're applying only these amazing skills also to their writing.
00:17:55.769 --> 00:18:00.730
But everyone sees themselves as a reader and they're confident.
00:18:00.730 --> 00:18:04.649
And I hope I'm shaping them into being lifelong learners.
00:18:04.649 --> 00:18:08.970
So it doesn't matter what skill level they're at, it's how they perceive themselves.
00:18:09.289 --> 00:18:11.769
Oh, I really wish they could join our podcast.
00:18:11.769 --> 00:18:20.649
Um, we didn't really talk about your training um before you became a teacher, but I'm interested with all of the lifelong learning that you've done as a professional.
00:18:20.649 --> 00:18:26.089
What do you understand now about reading and reading development that you didn't 20 years ago?
00:18:26.329 --> 00:18:34.089
I think when I first started my career, and I had it in my head of I'm gonna teach these kids this meaning structure, visual, because that's what he knew.
00:18:34.089 --> 00:18:34.730
And that's great.
00:18:34.730 --> 00:18:35.289
That's okay.
00:18:35.289 --> 00:18:36.089
That's what I was taught.
00:18:36.089 --> 00:18:41.849
Meaning, structural, visual, they're going to read these books and they're gonna be the office readers.
00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:48.250
And I think now I see it differently and I really focus on text.
00:18:48.250 --> 00:18:52.250
I don't move as quickly as I did before, as I mentioned before.
00:18:52.250 --> 00:18:58.569
A child may be on a working on diagraphs, they might need two weeks to work on diagraphs.
00:18:58.569 --> 00:18:59.450
And that's okay.
00:18:59.450 --> 00:19:00.809
That's the time I'm gonna give them.
00:19:00.809 --> 00:19:04.089
It's not a race anymore to get to that level I.
00:19:04.089 --> 00:19:10.809
And that's what I love because I feel like I was pushing them all to get to that level, even if they weren't ready for it.
00:19:10.809 --> 00:19:11.210
Yes.
00:19:14.250 --> 00:19:25.769
Because when people debate, you know, the false division between, you know, reading books and structured literacy, which I think we all know is a false, you know, a false binary.
00:19:25.769 --> 00:19:37.129
They'll often say that the whole notion of leveled reading and all of that, and kids having a sense of themselves as readers, that that was so central to that model and that it was individualized.
00:19:37.129 --> 00:19:44.970
And in fact, one of the challenges with structured literacy is this scope and sequence that you're marching kids through and it's the opposite of individualized.
00:19:44.970 --> 00:19:57.450
So I think it's fascinating that you've turned that upside down and you're saying, actually, no, this rigorous scope and sequence, which is about how we learn to read, is the same and yet incredibly individualized.
00:19:57.690 --> 00:19:58.169
It is.
00:19:58.169 --> 00:19:59.690
It's very individualized.
00:19:59.690 --> 00:20:00.569
It really is.
00:20:00.569 --> 00:20:04.649
And yeah, it's I couldn't imagine right now doing it any other way.
00:20:05.049 --> 00:20:09.690
What is one belief or practice that you would never give up?
00:20:09.929 --> 00:20:16.809
I think I kind of honestly, I feel like I I wouldn't give any of it up.
00:20:16.809 --> 00:20:22.569
So it's hard to say just one because as I mentioned earlier, I see it as a puzzle.
00:20:22.569 --> 00:20:33.210
And I don't think it's a combination of all those practices that allow students to build skills, yeah, gain confidence, and truly see themselves as a reader.
00:20:33.210 --> 00:20:40.569
So if I take one away or I take three pieces of my puzzle away and I just keep this one, I'm not gonna get the same picture.
00:20:41.210 --> 00:20:42.329
And not integrated, right?
00:20:42.329 --> 00:20:54.569
I think one of the things that is no you've made this connection between just even decoding one word to the self-concept that kids have as seeing themselves as readers.
00:20:54.569 --> 00:20:55.849
It can be as small as that.
00:20:55.849 --> 00:21:00.329
What would you say to other teachers who haven't made this shift?
00:21:00.569 --> 00:21:01.210
You can do it.
00:21:01.210 --> 00:21:06.730
And if you take the smallest step, you are moving in the right direction.
00:21:06.730 --> 00:21:12.970
And it's it doesn't happen overnight, but it's a lot of learning and they need to be committed and keep learning.
00:21:12.970 --> 00:21:15.369
And in the end, it's going to be worth it.
00:21:15.369 --> 00:21:18.089
They just need to be, again, kind to themselves.
00:21:18.089 --> 00:21:21.529
They need to be patient, they need to trust the process.
00:21:21.529 --> 00:21:27.929
And I think that can be really hard to trust the process at times, especially a new teacher.
00:21:27.929 --> 00:21:28.329
Yeah.
00:21:28.329 --> 00:21:30.490
And it's also hard for a veteran teacher.
00:21:30.490 --> 00:21:33.369
They've been teaching a certain way for so long.
00:21:33.369 --> 00:21:35.369
And it doesn't mean it was the wrong way.
00:21:35.369 --> 00:21:39.369
Taking the time to dive into that, they'll see a change in their students.
00:21:39.609 --> 00:21:40.169
It's great.
00:21:40.169 --> 00:21:44.809
So we'll finish on um a question which is what are you reading right now yourself?
00:21:44.809 --> 00:21:46.490
We love a personal recommendation.
00:21:46.490 --> 00:21:48.250
It doesn't have to be a professional book.
00:21:48.490 --> 00:21:50.730
But right now I'm reading Finding Focus.
00:21:50.970 --> 00:21:51.289
Cool.
00:21:51.529 --> 00:21:51.769
Yeah.
00:21:51.769 --> 00:21:55.049
Which is which is I'm really enjoying it.
00:21:55.049 --> 00:22:00.089
And I think right now we live in such a busy world, and I'm a mom of two teenagers.
00:22:00.089 --> 00:22:05.609
I have a husband, I have a dog, I have 19, five, and six-year-olds in front of me.
00:22:05.609 --> 00:22:13.690
It's busy, and I feel like I need to slow down and really focus on what truly matters.
00:22:13.690 --> 00:22:15.690
And I'm doing that personally.
00:22:15.929 --> 00:22:17.929
Well, I think that's a great place to end.
00:22:17.929 --> 00:22:22.569
Thank you so much, Danielle, for sharing yourself, your practice, and your learning.
00:22:22.569 --> 00:22:24.409
It's been a really lovely conversation.
00:22:24.809 --> 00:22:25.450
Been a pleasure.
00:22:25.450 --> 00:22:26.730
Thank you, Rose.
00:22:30.649 --> 00:22:33.450
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Reading Realities.
00:22:33.450 --> 00:22:36.409
And thank you, Danielle, for a thoughtful conversation.
00:22:36.409 --> 00:22:42.809
What stands out to me is the way Danielle brings assessment and instruction together into a direct relationship.
00:22:42.809 --> 00:22:53.690
I was struck by her description of structured literacy in the primary grades, not as rigid or limiting, but as something that actually makes instruction more responsive and more individualized.
00:22:53.690 --> 00:23:05.690
When a teacher knows exactly what a student has been taught and what they're ready for next, it becomes possible to meet each student where they are without lowering expectations or slowing anyone down.
00:23:05.690 --> 00:23:10.409
But perhaps most powerful is Danielle's focus on identity.
00:23:10.409 --> 00:23:22.970
That even a very small moment, tapping out a word, successfully decoding a sentence, reading your first decodable book, can shape how a young child sees themselves as a reader.
00:23:23.210 --> 00:23:31.609
If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe so you don't miss what's coming next, and share it with a colleague or an educator in your life who's part of this work too.
00:23:31.609 --> 00:23:36.730
As we continue building this community, it would mean a lot if you could take a moment to rate and review the show.
00:23:36.730 --> 00:23:40.329
It helps us reach more educators doing this important work every day.
00:23:40.329 --> 00:23:53.529
If you'd like to reach out, learn more about our work with educators or systems, or be part of a future conversation with me on reading realities, you can contact us at science of reading [at] newpaltz.edu, which is also in the show notes.
00:23:53.529 --> 00:23:59.210
We'll be back with more conversations from educators learning, reflecting, and refining their practice.
00:23:59.210 --> 00:24:00.889
Thanks for listening.
