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[SPEAKER_01]: Here at the Product Hip Packaging Powerhouse, our key mission is really to help with unveiling the realities of product development, packaging strategies and business tactics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In powering you, product maneuvers and brands to advance a send and accelerate your products into your marketplace.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, everyone.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to today's segment right here on the product and packaging powerhouse.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I am your show host, Megan Young-Gamble.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And if you've been rocking with us, you know, my new co-host, that's right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My God, our Alaya is joining us for our conversations for today.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we definitely appreciate you all for tuning in to today's segment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I am so excited for this conversation with today's featured powerhouse guests.
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[SPEAKER_01]: because if you've always heard about the terminology, composable packaging, or a possibly a part about biodegradable packaging, we're gonna get into that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's right, my girls already let you know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're about to get into it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we're gonna have today's feature powerhouse really talk about what is composable packaging, how you can start getting certified around, composable packaging, and also what is some legislation and policy around this industry as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So today's feature powerhouse guest is Roll to Yepsen.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He is a powerhouse in the composable industry, so I'm so excited for this conversation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He is the executive director at BPI, known as Biodegradable Products Institute, where he has led organization's transformation into an international leader in the composable and bio-economy spaces, twenty-fifteen, so for over ten years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Also, he has over fifteen years of experience in the sustainability and circular system, where he is a recognized voice on compost
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[SPEAKER_01]: compost policy, certifications, and infrastructure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He also is a former journalist with vial cycle magazines.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So when I say he is passionate about the circuit economy and composting and compostable packaging and the economy, he is the guru for this conversation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So ladies and gentlemen, welcome today's feature powerhouse guest, Rose Yepsen.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So Rose, welcome to the house.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thanks for having me and thanks for that nice introduction.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, so I'm so excited for our conversation today and you can tell my girl is as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So to get us started, it's a share with our viewers and listeners, bro, share a little bit about yourself and how you came into the world of compost packaging and biodegradable packaging from a journalist to now being the Executive Director at BPI.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's, it's a little bit of a unique journey there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So what took me down this path, I'd say, was really an interesting
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sustainability and environmental topics at a fairly young age.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that I grew up in rural Pennsylvania and my parents worked also in publishing for a little bit before my mom went back to be a guidance counselor at a elementary school.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so my dad had written a lot of books and edited on organic agriculture at Rodeal Press.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I always had this kind of interest in local food, gardening, sustainability, and when I went to college, I studied environmental studies, politics, and history at a liberal arts college, and kind of squirreled all these topics around, and was trying to figure out, how do I blend this all into my interest in my passions?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Do I want to be a writer and an editor like my dad?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Do I want to work on local food systems?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I had
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[SPEAKER_00]: Some are internships during college in Philadelphia at the Center for Food Safety, working with children in West Philadelphia, looking at local food systems in urban gardens.
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[SPEAKER_00]: After college, I got an internship at some literary quarterlies in San Francisco, you know, trying to try my hand at editing and understanding what that side of things were.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I kind of swirled around and landed me at Biocycle Magazine, which was close to home.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was an offshoot of Rotale Press.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So my parents had known that
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[SPEAKER_00]: the publisher from their earlier days.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I got an internship there for a summer just saying, I think I know what composting is, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Just picturing backyard composting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it was, they weren't looking to hire a full-time editor.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't looking to stay close to where I had grown up.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was just looked like a summer gig.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But the stars aligned.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was just this perfect mix of being able to mash my passions of writing and editing and food systems and
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[SPEAKER_00]: understanding this broader world of connection to environmental sustainability.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One of the articles that I researched many research a lot of articles over those years at Biocycle was around compostable packaging and around residential food composting and access.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that kind of took me down this rabbit hole of understanding why don't we have more cities with access to food scrap composting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of that was due to contamination and how do you scale.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so, you know, interviewing all these early biopolymer companies about what they were working on.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I just found it really fascinating.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So eventually I left biocycle, had some consulting gigs and got hired by a biopolymer company.
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[SPEAKER_00]: got onto the board of directors at BPI and when the founding executive director was retiring, I put my name in the hat and on the rest of his history ten years later, you know, have really taken this organization and kind of shaped it and helped it grow to where it is today.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That is such an incredible journey and I love how you really got started because of your parents and how your dad was a journalist, you know, really studying about agriculture to then leads your passion around environmental studies and in your internships
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[SPEAKER_01]: and how you became a full circle moment, you know, with you becoming a journalist like your dad, you know, studying agriculture and environmental impact.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So then where you are now with BPI.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's such a phenomenal journey, you know, that you've really taken and I always tell people, you know, from my own experience, you know, I took some detours to get to the destination.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But it seemed like you've always been on this journey towards this destination, you know, because of your love and
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[SPEAKER_01]: I also wanted to understand the impact around residential, composable packaging or recycling, excuse me, and what that looks like.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm based in Atlanta, Georgia, and some people compost most of us do not, in transparency, because of the resources or lack of resources.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I know there are some organizations out there
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, from a residential standpoint that can't help with composable recycling as well, but I want to get into the resources here shortly, but I just love your story and how you came about into the space.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So since you've been at BPI as the executive director now, which is.
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[SPEAKER_01]: phenomenal that you went from border directors to executive director.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Share with us a little bit about who BPI is and what your core mission is and how you're really integrated into really advocating around the circular system and economy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say, you know, I think it's interesting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The whole concept of is something in life a detour or is it
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[SPEAKER_00]: part of just a broader loop because I think it depends on who you're talking to and how you frame it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I described it in a pretty linear path to you, but I could describe it in a totally different way where you'd be like, whoa, you took so many detours, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it's all about how you weave that together and kind of take your opportunities and use those to shape and inform your path that, you know, looking in retrospective may look a little linear, but it has all, it definitely has all these detours around there that just kind of inform why you chose those
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[SPEAKER_00]: opportunities.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that really helps also, yeah, to your question about, you know, who BPI is and the approach that I take with, uh, with leading BPI.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So our organization has been around since nineteen ninety nine on this second executive director.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's also also often a question like, did I found BPI?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The organization was set up, like I said in nineteen ninety nine, sort of on this cusp of companies working on a lot of innovations around plastics and packaging.
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[SPEAKER_00]: As well as the growth of the compost industry, the US composting council is a little bit older than us, I believe, and they got their origin also from this perspective of solid waste composting, right, an organized composting with roots back to proctor and gamble and a diaper that they were marketing as biodegradable or compostable, which led to
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[SPEAKER_00]: believe it or not, biocycle writing a lot of investigative journalism about the Procter and Campbell diaper saying, hey, how are people actually going to compost these diapers?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that led to donations to set up the U.S.
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[SPEAKER_00]: composting council a few years later, they had a composting handbook from the U.S.
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[SPEAKER_00]: composting council explaining how large scale composting could be done and managed safely in terms of pathogens from unstable and mature compost.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And you had this work at ASTM
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[SPEAKER_00]: which is a standard setting body, developing test criteria around compostable polymers and plastics aligned with that composting handbook to say, okay, here's how you run a large scale composting facility taking a variety of materials from some of the more serious feedstocks that need care like human waste.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, through food waste yard trimmings, manure, things like that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then on the other side, here tests in criteria when you're designing a plastic package or additives into paper and fiber,
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[SPEAKER_00]: to make sure that those also will safely compose and break down.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So once those ASCM standards were set up, VPI was formed as a, you know, member-based trade association, Five O-N-C-Six nonprofit, and the first certification program watched was in concert with the US composting council.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The logo had both organizations, names on it, and was the licensed agreement talked about this partnership between the composting handbook and the ASCM standards.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that was sort of the bedrock of our organization is how do you start to, with a fairly product-based focus, start looking at systems, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And how does this, how do packaging companies and, you know, innovators and raw materials start to align, test appropriately, have a third-party group to have a logo that aligns the value chain.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, over the years, our organization has grown and done more things that trade associations do, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So beyond the certification program, which is still the bedrock and sort of the engine behind our group, which we continue to evolve.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We've set up committees to bring together that value chain from the, again, the raw material producers to the packaging converter.
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[SPEAKER_00]: the brand owner, the retailer, restaurant, municipalities, food scrap haulers and composers all represented in our membership and on our board of directors and in our committees.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So our committees are sometimes organized by topic area like policy or standards and procedures for our certification or marketing and comms as we think about how we combat negative narratives and promote success stories.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then sometimes they're organized by stakeholder groups.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We have a composer and municipality committee that's just for that group so they can have peer-to-peer learning.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So our organization kind of does a few things across that sector.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But it's really that power of convening and offering tools and resources for anyone who wants to see compostable and biodegradable materials succeed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And thank you so much for sharing that because at the end of the day for organizations, the value chain is so critical.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And one thing I always tell my viewers and listeners is, I bring the different stakeholders to the table for us to have the conversations and to collaborate efforts, because just like you mentioned with BPI, you're bringing their retailers, you're bringing the brains, you're bringing the food scrap recyclers, you know, packaging providers and suppliers, et cetera, to the table to make sure that you're offering value, but also defining what the value chain looks like in reference of biodegradable and compostable packaging.
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[SPEAKER_01]: still expanding upon this composable packaging, because as you mentioned with resources, ladies and gentlemen, BPI, their information is down in the show notes for you all.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They have a great section on their learn page that talks about biodegradable versus composable packaging.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, roads, I would love to ask you, what is the difference between biodegradable and composable packaging?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because I do see these terminologies being used interchangeably,
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[SPEAKER_01]: But per your website, there are some differences.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So can you share a little bit about the differences until our audience today?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's definitely one that we get asked a lot, and I think is important to get into, because sometimes the knee-jerk reaction is to either think that they're the same thing, or think that they're totally different, or that you should only use one term, not the other one, and we've seen that play out in real life in policies, which we could talk about, that I think had good intent, but I've kind of led to this division of, always say this, never say that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so ultimately, I think about it, as about a great ability, is the big circle.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and compostability is the smaller circle as a subset.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So biodegradation is talking about the ability of naturally occurring microorganisms to break down and consume carbon as a food source.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But you need to define that to be able to have a meaningful claim.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So when you're talking about the ability to design materials to make a to test
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[SPEAKER_00]: and make a claim based on those tests to have a certification like ours, to have policy to guide what is an appropriate term to use for marketing and sales.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You have to be a little bit more specific than biodegradable.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So biodegradable is a scientific term.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But once you start to define the environment and the timeframe and the past fail criteria, that's when you have to get a little bit more specific.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so for us, the primary environment that we're talking about is composting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: either large scale composting, which can be called commercial or industrial composting or home composting, which really just means smaller scale.
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[SPEAKER_00]: lower temperature longer time frame.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Biodegradation does happen in a lot of other environments, but when they're uncontrolled environments, that can be a little bit harder.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if you think about slightly less controlled and composting would be soiled by what a great ability for something like a agricultural mulch film or a drip tape used in a field.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So still natural biodegradation happening there, but it's not necessarily actively managed like a compost process.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Then you get even further down, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Then you have like a aquatic biodegradability and salt water or fresh water, so much variability there where you're talking about temperature.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Again, whether it's salt water or fresh or brackish somewhere in between, is the item floating or hovering in the middle or sinking when it gets into water, which and plus we don't, most of the time, we don't want plastic ending up in the water.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not a desire to end of life compared to an agricultural product in soil or composting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so for us, yeah, at Compostability, when we're talking about that smaller circle, we're thinking about the power of our certification to align that value chain.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And looking at the specific testing criteria that need to be used to make a responsible claim of Compostability.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not just one test.
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[SPEAKER_00]: in the standards that are used.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So when we're thinking about complicity, you need to think about the raw material and its ability to biodegrade and compost.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that big circle, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So can the microorganisms eat the carbon in the material and use it as a food source and completely convert that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So you're not left with microplastics and things it persists.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Does it disintegrate, which is that physical visual breakdowns, or the mechanical breakdown, or weathering, so the large item into smaller items?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then also things like heavy metals, which are really important for composers who use the same exact heavy metals tests, but we have a stricter limit than what's used for compost, plant toxicity, same test use to determine stability and maturity for compost.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We use for armaturels as well, looking at seed emergence and seed vigor, the biomass,
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[SPEAKER_00]: from the plants, right, weighing them to make sure that there's no negative impact on the compost, including some other tests, just sort of like wonky ones to help sort of fires like an infrared test where we're doing kind of a fingerprint so we can compare materials as they go through certification and re-certification.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh wait, listeners and viewers, did you hear that?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because that is a whole masterclass that Rose just gave us in reference to biodegradable, which is the large circle that umbrellas sort of speak.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then how composable or composable packaging falls underneath that, looking at the raw materials, how it disintegrates, you know, based upon the carbon, you know, based upon the carbon breakdown into it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that is a whole masterclass world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for breaking that down.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because as I mentioned, we see a lot of biodegradable use as like a marketing
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[SPEAKER_01]: word and incorporated incorporates like their sales copy, marketing claims, etc.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so he just shared how you can prevent misleading, you know, having misleading claims around using biodegradable and such.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So all the resources and what we talk about with the respect of page is down in the show notes for you all because as Rose mentioned, BPI's big about providing education and resources around this industry because
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of greenwashing in transparency that we're seeing in girls.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure with your overfitting really over thirty years of experience, you know, starting back from school and understanding environmental studies as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You've seen a lot of greenwashing over the times, you know, in food industry, beverage industry, beauty, just really as a whole.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so my question to you is, you know, when brands are starting to really
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[SPEAKER_01]: really defined and started to think about their packaging and wanted to use composable packaging and start making the claims, you know, and want to prevent using green washing, you know, as part of their sales and marketing, what would you recommend to brands to think about when they're wanted to use composable packaging and also what does the certifications need to look like, or what are the standards for certifications, our rather side.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I think
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[SPEAKER_00]: To me, when you're thinking about, it's sort of business to consumer versus business to business or business to government types of claims.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And to me, when you're thinking about a business to consumer claim for consumer goods, that's where the word biodegradable doesn't have a whole lot of place unless it has a ton of extra context.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because what you want is to be able to have your claim when you're talking about the end of life for that package, be instructional.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Need the consumer to understand what they're going to do with that item when they're finished with it after it's first use right to.
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[SPEAKER_00]: package your goods safely and get them to you to have your user experience of unpacking and eating or whatever it is for that use.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They need to know what to do with that item.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of other claims related to what happened to make that product to make it more sustainable with plant-based content or recycled materials or whatever the case may be.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But in terms of the end of life, we aren't really thinking pretty narrowly at our organization about composting when it comes to a consumer claim.
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[SPEAKER_00]: When we're thinking, um, business to business, then yeah, you maybe you can have a more nuanced claim thinking about soil biodegradability for agricultural mulch film as a perfect example, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's not a consumer claim.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's really business to business, explaining to a farmer, okay, here's a tool that works for you in your farm field.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Here's how you can use it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Here's why it's not really compostability that you're looking for.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're looking for the ability to till that mulch film into your field.
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[SPEAKER_00]: after you're done with it, or aquatic biodegradability.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Again, not really appropriate in our minds in most contexts for consumers, because we don't want it to ever imply that you could litter that item.
19:36.379 --> 19:41.922
[SPEAKER_00]: We still need that consumer to know where to put the item at the end of its life, which is not into the marine environment.
19:41.962 --> 19:43.203
[SPEAKER_00]: It's into a controlled bin.
19:44.063 --> 19:52.568
[SPEAKER_00]: But it still has some value for business to business or business to government as we think about how do we start to grapple with all the plastics entering our waterways and our food systems
19:52.962 --> 20:00.624
[SPEAKER_00]: for sure, understanding and testing for those other scenarios is great, and that B to B be to G. But B to C consumer, right?
20:00.664 --> 20:01.664
[SPEAKER_00]: They need that instruction.
20:01.724 --> 20:06.565
[SPEAKER_00]: So to avoid greenwashing, we really say focus on that end of life instruction, right?
20:06.705 --> 20:08.045
[SPEAKER_00]: What been are they putting it in?
20:08.505 --> 20:15.726
[SPEAKER_00]: And communities, even the ones with the robust, fully blown out systems, which is not most of the US tier point, it's three bins, right?
20:15.866 --> 20:18.347
[SPEAKER_00]: It's trash, recycling, compost.
20:18.727 --> 20:22.169
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you need to tell that person which been to put it in, right?
20:22.229 --> 20:27.533
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're talking about biodegradability, writ large, to a consumer, which been to they put it in, right?
20:27.913 --> 20:29.114
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't explain what to do.
20:29.214 --> 20:33.156
[SPEAKER_00]: So some companies, yeah, fall down the greenwashing hole of, oh, it's biodegradable landfills.
20:33.256 --> 20:34.037
[SPEAKER_00]: Put it in the trash.
20:34.177 --> 20:36.818
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, that's not necessarily something that we want.
20:37.038 --> 20:38.479
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't recover that material.
20:38.779 --> 20:46.924
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of question around the science of things like an additive into a conventional plastic, claim to biodegrade in a landfill.
20:48.278 --> 20:55.566
[SPEAKER_00]: And so again, we've really pushed towards how do you redesign to get that item out of the trash and into the compost bin.
20:56.487 --> 21:05.738
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've also seen right that play out in the FTC green guides and then I think I referenced earlier right that you've seen states start to issue policies to try to control this.
21:06.101 --> 21:22.634
[SPEAKER_00]: So California, unsurprisingly, was the first, and has had several iterations, but other states like Washington, Colorado, Minnesota, and Maryland all have laws that actually prohibit the term biodegradable for consumer claims on packaging because of what I just talked about.
21:22.994 --> 21:27.738
[SPEAKER_00]: So they prohibit the term biodegradable, degradable, or other similar terms on consumer packaging.
21:27.878 --> 21:33.763
[SPEAKER_00]: And they say, if you want to use the word compostable, that is appropriate, but you must meet
21:34.046 --> 21:41.902
[SPEAKER_00]: the STM standards for compostability or some comparable standard and increasingly those states are improving through iteration those laws and saying
21:42.233 --> 21:47.695
[SPEAKER_00]: In addition to meeting the standard, you also have to be certified by somebody and you have to properly label that item.
21:47.975 --> 21:56.758
[SPEAKER_00]: In the case of Colorado and Washington, they get into specific colors that you have to use, green or brown or beige with striping or tinting for bags.
21:56.778 --> 22:01.680
[SPEAKER_00]: They get into composable bags, they get into specific font size to make sure that you're not making that claim too small.
22:02.140 --> 22:05.062
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, we have a lot of information on our website about that in that nuance.
22:05.342 --> 22:08.583
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's been really interesting to see how states have evolved to help with that.
22:09.003 --> 22:22.788
[SPEAKER_00]: That question that you're talking about, Megan, of how do companies, how do we guide companies to do the right thing to invest their energy in the right place and not fall down a path of misleading consumers or, you know, lawsuits with states that have these laws.
22:22.808 --> 22:25.849
[SPEAKER_01]: Such a good point because, like I mentioned, I'm in Atlanta.
22:25.949 --> 22:31.051
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we have our efforts are good, but we still have a long way to go.
22:31.071 --> 22:35.012
[SPEAKER_01]: It's nowhere in comparison to the state of Washington to Oregon to Colorado.
22:35.755 --> 22:44.981
[SPEAKER_01]: California, California is leading a lot of efforts here in reference of the start three economy in the policies that are rolling now.
22:45.001 --> 22:51.604
[SPEAKER_01]: But here in Atlanta, we even have a hard time of knowing if things should go in the trash or going in recycling bins first off.
22:51.785 --> 22:54.186
[SPEAKER_01]: To then lead into, that's right, baby.
22:54.586 --> 22:59.990
[SPEAKER_01]: So then evenly into, should it go into a separate bin, respectfully for composting?
23:00.090 --> 23:04.012
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I go to my local groceries or publics, for example,
23:04.499 --> 23:12.365
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they have some of the bins for recycling the plastic bags, but when you look at all the bins that are out there, a lot of big is very confusing.
23:12.585 --> 23:17.929
[SPEAKER_01]: So for a consumer and you're thinking about into life, you're like, well, where am I supposed to put this?
23:18.509 --> 23:19.530
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have any instructions.
23:19.550 --> 23:21.732
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what should go, what shouldn't go.
23:22.252 --> 23:28.597
[SPEAKER_01]: And then if you go and tour like our local recycling centers and have those conversations with them, a lot of it's going in the trash.
23:28.757 --> 23:32.560
[SPEAKER_01]: So to your point, if we have more information,
23:33.116 --> 23:40.359
[SPEAKER_01]: that helps us as the consumers think about and understand what the end of life should look like and what we should be doing.
23:40.459 --> 23:46.682
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's where extended for this responsibility comes in and other policies respectfully it would be so much it would be a lot better.
23:46.742 --> 23:49.183
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're not having a lot of plastics or a lot of
23:49.721 --> 23:55.645
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, food waste going to the land fields and it's not properly sorted and it is a bigger impact.
23:55.685 --> 23:58.127
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and to our climate, you know, sort of speak.
23:58.207 --> 24:13.138
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's so many things around this, you know, and I'm sure with you being a champion around this industry, been studying it for years and also seeing where we're going for the food waste packaging and understanding the policy.
24:13.178 --> 24:15.200
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's really like the traffic to sort of speak.
24:15.810 --> 24:25.878
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, with all the policies and regulatory shifts that we're seeing in today's market, where do you see this industry heading within like the next three to five years?
24:26.298 --> 24:43.291
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's an exciting and somewhat scary time thinking about the interest in the role of public policy in our country, thinking about these different drivers for both getting food out of landfills and solving our packaging
24:43.738 --> 24:46.419
[SPEAKER_00]: problems, right, and having more packaging recovery.
24:46.840 --> 24:50.782
[SPEAKER_00]: And more often than not, these efforts are pretty disjointed.
24:51.062 --> 24:52.583
[SPEAKER_00]: And we see this all around the world.
24:53.103 --> 24:59.747
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we've been involved with some of the UN Plastics Treaty negotiations that have been happening.
24:59.767 --> 25:01.968
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm to really try to get a global
25:02.567 --> 25:22.978
[SPEAKER_00]: packed right around how do we manage plastic pollution it's so focused on plastic right and I get it why right plastic in the oceans of marine pollution nobody wants plastic in the oceans right that's a pretty unifying thing to work on but it's so my opically focused on plastic right it's not packaging writ large it's not our waste stream
25:23.380 --> 25:24.461
[SPEAKER_00]: writ large, right?
25:24.521 --> 25:30.145
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not connected to the infrastructure and the lack of infrastructure for waste management.
25:30.205 --> 25:42.475
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, you know, there is some acknowledgement in that conversation at a global level of, oh, a lot of countries lack insufficient waste management infrastructure and think about how much investment it will need through things like extended producer responsibility for recycling.
25:42.797 --> 25:43.958
[SPEAKER_00]: But it kind of stops there.
25:44.259 --> 25:47.503
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've been a champion joining those conversations to be like, whoa, hold on a second.
25:47.983 --> 25:48.624
[SPEAKER_00]: Think about this.
25:48.804 --> 25:53.189
[SPEAKER_00]: The food is the number one thing in our landfills in countries all around the world.
25:53.650 --> 25:55.552
[SPEAKER_00]: And the packaging, it's not just plastic, right?
25:55.572 --> 25:57.975
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of other packaging in our landfills today.
25:58.315 --> 26:02.060
[SPEAKER_00]: And how do we think about why recycling hasn't been working?
26:02.584 --> 26:05.626
[SPEAKER_00]: at a local level, a state, a country, or a global level.
26:05.686 --> 26:18.956
[SPEAKER_00]: So your point, like you're struggling to have access, even in our country, to curbside recycling, much less composting, and then you're finding out that in some cases, right, there for whatever reasons, we aren't getting to those recovery numbers that everybody wants, right, to be clear.
26:19.717 --> 26:22.259
[SPEAKER_00]: The packaging and brands also bump that recovery.
26:22.599 --> 26:28.403
[SPEAKER_00]: And so figuring out that why, and thinking about, well, where are some of those opportunities of where a compostable product's fit in?
26:28.423 --> 26:30.585
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I won't proclaim to be the expert on
26:30.998 --> 26:34.159
[SPEAKER_00]: exactly why recycling is or is not working in certain instances.
26:34.179 --> 26:36.200
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of people who are really good at that.
26:36.840 --> 26:48.163
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the value and the opportunity for composting that's so exciting is you think about the ability to remove some of those difficulties of a global recycling network, right?
26:48.203 --> 26:56.485
[SPEAKER_00]: Where you have to have these large, very capital intensive recycling facilities and you have to have uniform high quality bales of material, right?
26:56.505 --> 26:58.426
[SPEAKER_00]: So large volumes of consistent material
26:59.060 --> 27:05.325
[SPEAKER_00]: buyers to reprocess that when you're talking about composting, that's inherently local, right?
27:05.365 --> 27:09.769
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to ship our food scraps over to another country in Asia to reprocess them.
27:10.110 --> 27:11.230
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to be managed locally.
27:11.271 --> 27:13.072
[SPEAKER_00]: They rot quickly, they're heavy, they're wet.
27:13.412 --> 27:16.455
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when you're thinking about compostable packaging and its ability to help
27:16.980 --> 27:23.682
[SPEAKER_00]: divert that food scraps and the packaging material, it's going to stay in a local regional system, right?
27:23.802 --> 27:26.043
[SPEAKER_00]: And it provides all these entrepreneurial benefits.
27:26.083 --> 27:28.804
[SPEAKER_00]: So in some ways, California is this amazing leader for sure.
27:29.064 --> 27:39.788
[SPEAKER_00]: In other ways, like Atlanta, Georgia, you have one of the other country leaders in compost and compost now who's been around for a while and has an amazing business to help fill in some of those gaps.
27:40.168 --> 27:44.970
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that that's what's really exciting to me is thinking about where we're headed and how
27:45.390 --> 28:03.350
[SPEAKER_00]: those policies can start to align our efforts to get food out of landfills and our efforts to manage our packaging and provide those incentives to build local and regional systems in our own country and I think hopefully unify us right like that's a pretty bipartisan thing when we think about rural development you know urban quality of life
28:03.703 --> 28:06.285
[SPEAKER_00]: The ability to have access to these systems to have U.S.
28:06.325 --> 28:15.633
[SPEAKER_00]: businesses making the packaging out of agricultural feed sucks grown in the U.S., composting it using that compost to regenerate our soils and have local food systems.
28:16.377 --> 28:22.520
[SPEAKER_00]: There are just so many opportunities to have that be a pretty America first-style program to unify everybody.
28:22.600 --> 28:26.562
[SPEAKER_00]: Like nobody is going to disagree with that in a bipartisan sense.
28:26.582 --> 28:45.570
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's where I find the hope is as our politicians at the local state and federal level start to realize that bipartisan nature, right, that this is an easy win, talking about composting and compostable packaging, that we can really, we are as our country, some of the have some of the best innovation around these
28:46.212 --> 28:59.080
[SPEAKER_00]: biomaterials, and we've got great entrepreneurs figuring out how to compost in different situations, whether you have a state that has great policies, driving it or just from the entrepreneurial sense like in Atlanta.
28:59.941 --> 29:06.305
[SPEAKER_01]: We still have a long ways to go like you said, but from what did you mention your reference to the urban planning and policy?
29:07.062 --> 29:17.384
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe that there could be an opportunity when we're looking at the development, like new development or updating or continues to improve when up developments in different areas.
29:17.964 --> 29:24.266
[SPEAKER_01]: I personally believe we could have such matters like yourself and other policy makers being part of those conversations.
29:24.706 --> 29:30.367
[SPEAKER_01]: So it can be more of a positive impact versus it versus being rehabbed in the approach because
29:31.072 --> 29:33.515
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I live, I really live in the suburbs in Atlanta.
29:33.796 --> 29:35.879
[SPEAKER_01]: We just all say we're from Atlanta because that's where most people know.
29:36.339 --> 29:38.402
[SPEAKER_01]: But I live like twenty minutes from Atlanta.
29:38.743 --> 29:44.010
[SPEAKER_01]: And in my minutes of the recycling guidelines are different in the city of Atlanta, recycling.
29:44.538 --> 29:47.561
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, and when you go to like, that's right, baby.
29:47.941 --> 29:56.150
[SPEAKER_01]: And even when you go into, I've Mercedes-Benz stadiums, State Farm Arena, like these big arenas, and you're seeing like what their sustainability initiatives are.
29:56.510 --> 30:06.120
[SPEAKER_01]: Mercedes-Benz is leading the efforts for a lot of it in packaging, speaking in there, you know, for some of their food and beverage at the concessions, which is great, you know, but when you go to
30:06.823 --> 30:12.905
[SPEAKER_01]: Philips Arena, you know, not as much, you know, and we barely have been so very accessible, so too.
30:13.105 --> 30:21.589
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody needs to be at the table and really starting to be part of these conversations, you know, from the beginning because there's so much to think about, especially food waste.
30:21.929 --> 30:30.792
[SPEAKER_01]: Like looking at how much food waste is in our landfill, I feel like they can go to other measures, you know, outside of composable packaging, you know, but that's a whole not the topic.
30:30.992 --> 30:33.293
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, there's a lot to think about.
30:33.513 --> 30:35.154
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's so much policy
30:35.634 --> 30:38.455
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're in its empathy stage, but still have a long way to go.
30:38.975 --> 30:46.737
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like the recycling infrastructure long way to go, you know, to be similar to, you know, some of the other standards we see, respectfully like in the EU.
30:47.217 --> 30:48.337
[SPEAKER_01]: But we're slowly getting there.
30:48.858 --> 30:52.739
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're making great strides, but still a little ways to go for sure.
30:53.159 --> 30:54.179
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
30:54.459 --> 30:59.120
[SPEAKER_00]: And, oh, just talking about it, Atlanta a little bit in this ability to, and the differences.
30:59.180 --> 31:02.041
[SPEAKER_00]: So BPI holds an annual summit every year.
31:02.648 --> 31:17.505
[SPEAKER_00]: And we rotate locations around the country and our summit this year is actually going to be in Atlanta in September and is a great form to bring together local government officials state and federal and we have a tour of the state farm arena.
31:17.904 --> 31:20.987
[SPEAKER_00]: to look at their operations for composting.
31:21.407 --> 31:25.030
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I hear you on how, you know, it's important to get all those people together.
31:25.090 --> 31:27.432
[SPEAKER_00]: So like add an event like the BPI summit.
31:27.672 --> 31:33.397
[SPEAKER_00]: I think also virtual convenings can be really helpful to talk through things and being able to frame topics.
31:33.417 --> 31:46.488
[SPEAKER_00]: So like one of the things we're going to be talking about at the BPI summit this year is trying to unpack and understand what extended producer responsibility means for composting because most BPR systems for packaging around the world are only for recycling.
31:46.842 --> 31:53.944
[SPEAKER_00]: The only one that's in practice today, up and running that includes composting in a robust way in the world, is in Italy, the EPR system.
31:54.764 --> 32:07.267
[SPEAKER_00]: So in Italy, the EPR system does successfully track composable product sales, allocate that money towards composting systems, but all the other EPR systems that are up and running today don't do that for composting.
32:07.567 --> 32:09.628
[SPEAKER_00]: It's allocating all that money towards recycling.
32:09.888 --> 32:14.349
[SPEAKER_00]: So BPI has focused a lot on getting in the US as states pass EPR laws for packaging,
32:14.719 --> 32:17.020
[SPEAKER_00]: getting composting fully recognized in those laws.
32:17.100 --> 32:22.962
[SPEAKER_00]: So composters seats on the advisory boards, making sure that composting is well defined in those laws.
32:23.282 --> 32:31.725
[SPEAKER_00]: Then again, when we're talking about redesign, we're not talking just about how do you reduce packaging, how do you define reuse and refill, how do you define recyclability.
32:31.985 --> 32:34.786
[SPEAKER_00]: But then we have this third pathway for recovery.
32:34.867 --> 32:37.107
[SPEAKER_00]: So reuse refill, recycling, and composting.
32:37.347 --> 32:41.029
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we've been pretty successful in getting that into state laws.
32:41.249 --> 32:44.050
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think one of the things to be able to draw and explain
32:44.520 --> 32:56.453
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, in a place like Atlanta is, you know, what does this mean in terms of even just standardizing systems across the state so that you don't have this problem because what you're describing happens everywhere like the classic example I always get is San Francisco.
32:56.934 --> 32:59.577
[SPEAKER_00]: First city in the US to offer curbside composting.
32:59.917 --> 33:04.199
[SPEAKER_00]: Right has always been a pioneer and a supporter of compostable products with BPI.
33:04.479 --> 33:07.761
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people that work in San Francisco don't live in San Francisco, right?
33:07.801 --> 33:10.742
[SPEAKER_00]: They live in other parts of the bay that are a little more affordable.
33:11.162 --> 33:12.923
[SPEAKER_00]: And the systems aren't aligned, right?
33:12.963 --> 33:21.547
[SPEAKER_00]: So the other parts of the bay area have added composting bins over the years, but the rules are different between San Francisco and Oakland and Berkeley.
33:22.069 --> 33:23.190
[SPEAKER_00]: and Alameda, right?
33:23.210 --> 33:24.911
[SPEAKER_00]: They all are different jurisdictions.
33:24.931 --> 33:27.993
[SPEAKER_00]: And they all have different rules about what goes in the recycling and the composting bin.
33:28.453 --> 33:30.575
[SPEAKER_00]: And it changes from year to year, right?
33:30.635 --> 33:33.296
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is just, yeah, how do we expect people to get it right?
33:33.617 --> 33:42.082
[SPEAKER_00]: If where you work and where you live or where you go see a game or a concert, all have different rules and they change the next time that you go back.
33:42.463 --> 33:42.943
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
33:42.963 --> 33:45.344
[SPEAKER_01]: Because like, I'll go ahead and put my stuff on here.
33:45.945 --> 33:49.087
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just went to the Beyonce concert, which was at the Mercedes bin standing on here.
33:49.935 --> 34:05.018
[SPEAKER_01]: And even at the concert, you know, they had the different places where there was cycle, and I shared how they have some of their food concessions stains that are putting some of their food in composable packaging, called the food packaging, which is fantastic as part of their sustainability effort.
34:05.398 --> 34:06.239
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right, girl.
34:06.779 --> 34:17.561
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, to that point, when I go to say Bomberina, if I go to some of the other respective Marina, you're not the same, you know, not the same practices, you know, being done.
34:18.089 --> 34:19.049
[SPEAKER_01]: you know to that point.
34:19.089 --> 34:22.030
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm so glad the BPI summit is coming to Atlanta.
34:22.050 --> 34:35.755
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope that y'all do this toward the Mercedes-Benz stadium because I think it's phenomenal and learning about their sustainability efforts and ladies and gentlemen, I will have the information for BPI summit down in the show notes for you all because the event's happening is starting September.
34:38.190 --> 34:39.311
[SPEAKER_01]: for the event roads.
34:39.771 --> 34:40.411
[SPEAKER_00]: It's that week.
34:40.451 --> 34:40.752
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:40.772 --> 34:43.793
[SPEAKER_00]: So some of the tour dates are like a pre pre conference.
34:44.254 --> 34:44.534
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:44.554 --> 34:54.180
[SPEAKER_01]: So all the information for the BPI summit viewers and listeners will be down in the show notes for you all as well as to learn more about BPI leading up to the event.
34:54.220 --> 34:55.361
[SPEAKER_01]: So please get involved.
34:55.381 --> 35:00.704
[SPEAKER_01]: Please get engaged as well and look at some of the resources that they offer as well.
35:01.403 --> 35:15.495
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I want to ask you this because you mentioned earlier in our conversation around how BPI is helping to share information and change the narrative of what commercial versus residential composting looks like.
35:16.016 --> 35:25.564
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I would love to ask you what resources, you know, can you help share, you know, on BPI's website or other respective organizations and resources.
35:26.082 --> 35:39.112
[SPEAKER_01]: that a really big about helping homeowners from a residential standpoint to commercial businesses be intentional about composting from storage to collection and positive contributions to the start with economy.
35:39.353 --> 35:39.613
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
35:40.233 --> 35:47.939
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think just to make that distinction between large-scale professionally managed compost piles versus a backyard pile.
35:47.959 --> 35:48.540
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that's
35:49.045 --> 35:59.612
[SPEAKER_00]: probably the biggest distinction from sort of a scientific perspective, but also an ability to understand how to take action as a business or as an individual.
35:59.972 --> 36:14.282
[SPEAKER_00]: And so thinking about that, the fundamental difference there is between a professionally managed, so we would call it commercial or industrial composting facility and a backyard pile tends to be the size of that pile and how actively it's managed
36:14.998 --> 36:24.581
[SPEAKER_00]: So the size of the pile matters because when you don't have enough mass in your pile, it can be really difficult to reach and maintain high temperatures in composting.
36:24.862 --> 36:29.943
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there are kind of some ranges of temperature when you talk about thermophilic temperatures.
36:30.343 --> 36:38.406
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are pretty high optimum temperatures at a commercial composting facility for managing pathogens, killing weed seeds, things like that.
36:38.466 --> 36:43.388
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why commercial and industrial facilities are really needed if we're going to scale this across
36:43.938 --> 36:59.193
[SPEAKER_00]: all communities for managing things like meat and dairy and eggs and compostable packaging at a large scale because they're able to consistently get and maintain those thermophilic temperatures that are high enough to break down compostable packaging quickly.
36:59.213 --> 37:03.517
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm kill pathogens quickly and generate that stable and mature compost.
37:03.862 --> 37:19.711
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, when you're talking about a backyard compost pile or home composting, you can still hit a thermophilic temperature, but it's going to be a small percentage of the population who is willing to put in that effort consistently to manage that pile and get to those thermophilic temperatures.
37:20.032 --> 37:32.599
[SPEAKER_00]: We did a cool study looking at backyard composting in preparation for launching a home compostable certification later this year, where we took the five most common bins from being sold online at at, you know, box stores,
37:33.152 --> 37:35.053
[SPEAKER_00]: and analyze both that sort of it.
37:35.373 --> 37:46.797
[SPEAKER_00]: Individual level, I signed up for the trial as well as hiring some community composers and universities and testing labs to manage these five bins to see, you know, how hot can you get it?
37:47.337 --> 37:51.818
[SPEAKER_00]: How do products claiming home complicity that was certified elsewhere around the world?
37:51.858 --> 37:53.279
[SPEAKER_00]: How do they break down in those bins?
37:53.859 --> 37:58.521
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was fascinating to see, you know, it takes a lot of effort to maintain that home compost bin.
37:58.561 --> 38:02.042
[SPEAKER_00]: And typically, you're going to see more ambient temperatures.
38:02.738 --> 38:11.245
[SPEAKER_00]: compared to outside, right, similar temperature to outside, or mesophilic, which is slightly elevated from ambient, but not quite as high as thermophilic temperatures.
38:11.525 --> 38:15.328
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's good for certain materials to think about like paper and fiber items.
38:15.689 --> 38:24.496
[SPEAKER_00]: The microorganisms and the fungi are pretty happy in that mesophilic and ambient temperature, which I see mushrooms, you know, grow out of a wet lawn sometimes, things like that.
38:24.876 --> 38:29.180
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're really good at breaking down those lignocelliolic materials in a paper or fiber item.
38:29.539 --> 38:32.200
[SPEAKER_00]: and certain bio polymers that are based on cellulose.
38:32.501 --> 38:35.502
[SPEAKER_00]: What I found is you really have to add a lot of water to your backyard pile.
38:35.922 --> 38:47.768
[SPEAKER_00]: One consultant in the project told me like water your home compost bin like you water your garden and that seems crazy to me and I did it and my temperatures was the only time I ever had a thermofilic temperature in my own backyard pile which was kind of interesting.
38:48.009 --> 38:56.373
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think if you're a homeowner and you're a apartment dweller and you're looking to compost and you don't have access from your municipality
38:56.749 --> 39:00.612
[SPEAKER_00]: The things to be thinking about are other things in your kitchen that you could use, right?
39:00.632 --> 39:14.983
[SPEAKER_00]: There are some tools that, you know, tabletop devices that can help process your food scraps, not into compost in your kitchen, but they can dehydrate it and make it less stinky and make it easier to compost later or in a smaller space on a patio.
39:15.043 --> 39:18.566
[SPEAKER_00]: So things, these tabletop food, food, meal type devices.
39:20.391 --> 39:25.132
[SPEAKER_00]: Then you could also have a worm bin if you like worms worms are a little picky to to manage.
39:25.252 --> 39:26.773
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't like a lot of citrus fruit.
39:26.793 --> 39:28.774
[SPEAKER_00]: They're definitely not going to want that meat and dairy.
39:29.014 --> 39:35.356
[SPEAKER_00]: But they can process some things and they make a really nutrient dense compost like substance called vermicompost, which is actually their poop.
39:36.316 --> 39:39.917
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can do a lot with that those vermicastings and you can do that in an apartment.
39:40.323 --> 39:42.284
[SPEAKER_00]: worms don't like really cold or really hot.
39:42.324 --> 39:43.405
[SPEAKER_00]: So an apartment is good for that.
39:43.425 --> 39:45.646
[SPEAKER_00]: If you have a backyard, you can get a compost bin.
39:45.666 --> 39:50.589
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there are tons of ways you can do that from a store bought bin like a tumbler or an insulated bin.
39:50.609 --> 39:54.571
[SPEAKER_00]: If you live in a cold climate, you can build it yourself out of pallets or chicken wire.
39:55.131 --> 39:58.893
[SPEAKER_00]: There are lots of great resources even on the EPA website about that.
39:59.153 --> 40:02.475
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you're a homeowner looking to do that or you know, apartment dwellers, you just
40:02.882 --> 40:14.270
[SPEAKER_00]: Think about your space and think about the materials that you're going to be able to divert and look for items that are marketed and certified as home compostable to break down in those bins that don't require that higher temperature to break down.
40:14.770 --> 40:23.896
[SPEAKER_00]: As a business though, if you're thinking about your materials, you really need to be looking at more organized collection, figuring out what are your hauling contracts allow you to do.
40:24.036 --> 40:29.159
[SPEAKER_00]: So asking your current hauler if they offer a food scrap collection and composting hauling services,
40:30.634 --> 40:41.883
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not in a franchise agreement, depending on where you are in the country, looking to get a hall or to collect that material, there are a lot of brokers who will help with that for businesses, especially businesses with multiple locations.
40:42.264 --> 40:49.250
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a resource called FindAcomposter.com that started with Biocycle Magazine, BPI took over, that helps with that with some maps.
40:49.610 --> 40:50.431
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of maps.
40:50.931 --> 40:55.235
[SPEAKER_00]: Beyond FindAcomposter, a bunch of other communities have maps.
40:55.255 --> 40:58.017
[SPEAKER_00]: The EPA has a excess food waste opportunities map,
40:58.461 --> 41:05.723
[SPEAKER_00]: on their website that explains where food is being generated at large supermarkets and distribution centers as well as where the composting operations are.
41:06.584 --> 41:11.505
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, for a business, you really need that organized collection and management or on-site processing, I guess.
41:11.925 --> 41:19.308
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wait, thank you for helping to differentiate between the residential versus commercial side of composting and what that looks like.
41:19.488 --> 41:26.290
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm happy to hear that you all are incorporating a home, composable certification as well, because to your point,
41:26.832 --> 41:31.834
[SPEAKER_01]: We're seeing so many people, you know, try to compost the right way.
41:32.314 --> 41:55.645
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are some guidelines that should be in place, you know, like you mentioned, having a, you know, a tumbler, you know, that actually has the, you know, residential, composable certification, you know, and the information around that, you know, being displayed on their packaging to large scale or commercial companies where they need to be more organized collection and what that looks like.
41:56.160 --> 42:22.265
[SPEAKER_01]: So we will link the information that Rose mentioned with EPA as well as VPI's website that talks about these aspects too, because there are some nuances that are explained more on their website, but also to help you all be informed around what this looks like and making sure that you are properly collecting and storage and also making sure the temperature, especially for residential composting is at the right level, so it can thrive.
42:22.847 --> 42:26.569
[SPEAKER_01]: you know and make sure how it can get back into the circulary economy as well.
42:26.989 --> 42:33.433
[SPEAKER_01]: And so roads, as we're starting to wrap up today's episode, I want to ask you possibly two final questions.
42:34.153 --> 42:46.380
[SPEAKER_01]: And so everybody talks about composable packaging is not just for plastics, you know, we also need to consider food waste as well as part of this composting effort and how we can go back positively into the circulary economy.
42:46.620 --> 42:51.323
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are some misconceptions around composable packaging and composting.
42:51.925 --> 42:59.189
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to hear from you what are some misconceptions that you hear in this space and how to debug them as well.
42:59.450 --> 43:03.112
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you say that last part, one of the misconceptions about Composibles and what?
43:03.392 --> 43:04.332
[SPEAKER_01]: How to debug them.
43:04.713 --> 43:06.114
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a good question.
43:06.354 --> 43:18.921
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think one of the common misconceptions about Composible Packaging is that there's no value to a Composible product unless you're getting it composted, which is this sort of chicken and egg argument, right?
43:19.261 --> 43:20.002
[SPEAKER_00]: It's commonly
43:20.404 --> 43:29.511
[SPEAKER_00]: put out there that, you know, by naysayers of, oh, well, we shouldn't be working on composable packaging because we don't have that national infrastructure for compost access.
43:29.791 --> 43:34.754
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd say the reason that that's a common misconception is it's like many things.
43:34.814 --> 43:38.437
[SPEAKER_00]: It has a grain of truth, which is yes, absolutely.
43:38.477 --> 43:46.543
[SPEAKER_00]: We need compost access and the ability to compost those items to get the full value out of it, but we need to build those systems in tandem, right?
43:46.643 --> 43:48.304
[SPEAKER_00]: And this idea that you're going to
43:48.805 --> 43:55.350
[SPEAKER_00]: build a national compost access that will work for packaging if the packaging were never invented and we're not did not exist.
43:56.231 --> 43:57.752
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't work, right?
43:58.032 --> 43:59.333
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to take years and
43:59.810 --> 44:18.780
[SPEAKER_00]: billion with a B billions of dollars to develop national compost infrastructure and the way you develop that compost infrastructure is going to be based on the materials that society is deciding should be composted right and so there's some big questions to grapple with here is that just yard waste right leaves and grass and twigs
44:19.338 --> 44:20.139
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it food waste?
44:20.499 --> 44:21.740
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it food waste with packaging?
44:22.161 --> 44:38.135
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it human waste right diapers feminine hygiene products right like that's a whole other realm that isn't really being talked about much right we're just starting to talk about food out of land fills and food associated packaging but there are a lot of other things right pet waste and human waste and feminine hygiene products like
44:38.502 --> 44:39.783
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't recycle those things.
44:40.203 --> 44:44.225
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's either trash or land, yeah, it's either trash and landfills or composting.
44:44.245 --> 44:46.727
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's going to take a whole other composting system.
44:46.747 --> 44:53.391
[SPEAKER_00]: So to me, the big misconceptions there is this idea that let's wait on combustible packaging.
44:53.551 --> 44:55.952
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not valuable until we have that compost access.
44:55.992 --> 45:05.478
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm saying, no, no, no, we need to develop these in tandem together and make sure that with EPR and proper labeling and systems and investments that we're building a system that's really going to work for
45:05.890 --> 45:09.272
[SPEAKER_00]: The materials that society is trying to shape and have in the system.
45:09.392 --> 45:09.993
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
45:10.713 --> 45:23.221
[SPEAKER_01]: And then so to piggyback off that question systems, because at the end of the day, we need systems to help us be efficient for repository, for all this information, for traceability and trackability as well.
45:23.781 --> 45:33.747
[SPEAKER_01]: So what systems would you recommend to be incorporated and how does BPI look at what systems should be incorporated?
45:35.495 --> 45:36.215
[SPEAKER_01]: to your point.
45:36.495 --> 45:36.776
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
45:37.176 --> 45:39.217
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's a really fascinating question.
45:39.297 --> 45:46.159
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the exciting thing and the daunting thing about systems change is how complex it is, right?
45:46.239 --> 45:51.942
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's what makes it exciting is that it's not an easy, easy fix.
45:52.722 --> 46:01.726
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also exciting that as you start to see those interconnections in a systems approach, it's invigorating not scary anymore, right?
46:01.766 --> 46:04.767
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it seems scary first, where you're like, I don't know how to do this, right?
46:05.650 --> 46:07.570
[SPEAKER_00]: I just give me a yes no answer, right?
46:07.610 --> 46:08.811
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like the gray area.
46:09.071 --> 46:11.671
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to know what to do with my package design, right?
46:12.011 --> 46:13.631
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to know what to do with my food waste.
46:14.112 --> 46:15.252
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me what to do, right?
46:15.292 --> 46:17.472
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, okay, well, no, start to understand these systems.
46:17.512 --> 46:19.953
[SPEAKER_00]: And first, it's like, this seems insane, right?
46:20.013 --> 46:25.774
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how do we connect soil health and the quality of our food, backage back to the packaging, right?
46:26.134 --> 46:33.655
[SPEAKER_00]: And what does that mean in terms of a labeling law or funding permitting rules for composting, the methane portion of
46:34.368 --> 46:38.954
[SPEAKER_00]: Compost when you're avoiding food from landfills versus carbon sequestration in the soil, right?
46:39.314 --> 46:43.540
[SPEAKER_00]: And so to me that that systems approach starts to fuel validated and exciting.
46:44.388 --> 46:45.889
[SPEAKER_00]: when they all start to link together.
46:45.909 --> 47:00.814
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think, you know, in a really short way, I could talk about like, simplistically, which doesn't do it justice, you know, you need rules around packaging, which includes definitions of that packaging requirements about how it's going to be labeled, funding related to management of that packaging.
47:00.854 --> 47:07.817
[SPEAKER_00]: But then you need whole other systems around infrastructure, an education for businesses and households to link that together.
47:08.537 --> 47:18.684
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, if food is the number one material on landfills and the EPA estimates, I think it's fifteen billion dollars is needed to get food waste composting access at the same level as trash and recycling.
47:19.004 --> 47:23.487
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not going to be funded by the small fee from compressible products in an EPR system, right?
47:23.527 --> 47:24.527
[SPEAKER_00]: Like to manage the food.
47:24.828 --> 47:26.869
[SPEAKER_00]: So those would be the kind of core elements.
47:26.989 --> 47:28.050
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you for that.
47:28.290 --> 47:36.315
[SPEAKER_01]: And like you said, it depends upon the complexity and this is a complex topic in nature and also how deep.
47:36.731 --> 47:39.533
[SPEAKER_01]: It goes as well for the traceability aspect.
47:39.574 --> 47:54.847
[SPEAKER_01]: So just like you mentioned, you know, with what are the definitions, what are the guidelines, what are the exceptions, what are the, was the testing or success criteria to the testing organizations to other respective organizations and how does it crossover into labeling compliance and regulations.
47:55.167 --> 48:00.972
[SPEAKER_01]: It is very complex, you know, so that's why we need all stakeholders, you know, when you mention about the value change.
48:01.410 --> 48:06.534
[SPEAKER_01]: connecting with the brand owners, the retailers, the food waste for cycling facilities and more.
48:06.874 --> 48:10.997
[SPEAKER_01]: You need everybody, part of this conversation to build out their robust system.
48:11.798 --> 48:14.600
[SPEAKER_01]: And it will take some time to get to that point too.
48:14.780 --> 48:28.411
[SPEAKER_01]: But ladies and gentlemen, BPI does have a resource on their website where if you are looking for a composable packaging, they do have a member of directory and listing based upon the brands that have gotten certified through their organization.
48:28.922 --> 48:32.866
[SPEAKER_01]: So all the information is down and available on their website as well.
48:33.466 --> 48:35.048
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a way for starting.
48:35.168 --> 48:44.897
[SPEAKER_01]: So they have the system, you know, to help link and showcase some of the composable packaging providers from labels to boat trays, utensils and more.
48:45.097 --> 48:46.118
[SPEAKER_01]: I've actually gone through it.
48:46.158 --> 48:47.679
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I'm very impressed.
48:48.100 --> 48:52.764
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so they do have systems incorporate, you know, to give you all started and to
48:53.331 --> 49:00.582
[SPEAKER_01]: Help you be intentional about the packaging that you are procuring, you know, as part of your supply chain strategy and all in value chain as well.
49:00.982 --> 49:01.944
[SPEAKER_01]: So get involved.
49:02.064 --> 49:09.655
[SPEAKER_01]: Look explore reach out to road to information on LinkedIn as well as this direct information and email address is down below.
49:10.117 --> 49:19.141
[SPEAKER_01]: So, ladies and gentlemen, we're getting into our featured power round, where we're going to display ninety seconds on the clock and ask Rose about some of his fun facts that he shared with us.
49:19.781 --> 49:25.003
[SPEAKER_01]: So, we're going to put ninety seconds on the clock, but to give you a preview, on Rose, less of backpacking canoe.
49:25.303 --> 49:31.546
[SPEAKER_01]: He is a former journalist at Biosheckle Magazine, which we've heard early in our conversation, and his favorite author is Windle Berry.
49:32.106 --> 49:38.409
[SPEAKER_01]: So, ninety seconds is on the clock, and we're going to see how many questions he can answer in this time frame.
49:38.429 --> 49:39.229
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Rose, are you ready?
49:39.572 --> 49:39.932
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm ready.
49:40.273 --> 49:40.573
[SPEAKER_01]: Ready.
49:40.753 --> 49:41.234
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go.
49:41.574 --> 49:42.035
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
49:42.115 --> 49:44.317
[SPEAKER_01]: So you love backpacking and canoe in there.
49:44.517 --> 49:45.679
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it at a rocks?
49:46.379 --> 49:47.100
[SPEAKER_00]: At a rendezvous.
49:47.681 --> 49:48.582
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, at a rendezvous.
49:48.842 --> 49:49.363
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
49:49.843 --> 49:51.865
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's your favorite trail or spot?
49:52.206 --> 49:58.853
[SPEAKER_00]: My favorite spot is a spot in an old in their old forge, New York where my family has been going since nineteen oh five.
49:59.234 --> 50:01.036
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, legacy, I love that.
50:01.597 --> 50:05.761
[SPEAKER_01]: And then do you love exploring backpacking and canoeing during sunrise or sunset?
50:06.141 --> 50:06.582
[SPEAKER_00]: Sunset.
50:06.882 --> 50:07.102
[SPEAKER_01]: Sunset.
50:07.122 --> 50:07.403
[SPEAKER_01]: Sunset.
50:07.543 --> 50:08.043
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I bet.
50:08.804 --> 50:13.109
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you could choose backpacking or canoeing, which one would be your preference?
50:13.489 --> 50:13.909
[SPEAKER_00]: canoeing.
50:14.250 --> 50:15.171
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, love it.
50:15.251 --> 50:16.592
[SPEAKER_01]: I try canoeing, not for me.
50:16.692 --> 50:21.958
[SPEAKER_01]: But as a fan of windowberry, what's one quote or idea from his work that you come back to often?
50:22.367 --> 50:31.109
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he talks about food that is cheap at any cost that always resonated with me about sort of the externalities about our food system.
50:31.430 --> 50:33.190
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, I love that, okay.
50:34.030 --> 50:39.032
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you weren't leading BPI, what's one unexpected career path you think you would love?
50:39.432 --> 50:40.412
[SPEAKER_00]: An environmental lawyer.
50:40.432 --> 50:41.813
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.
50:42.153 --> 50:43.753
[SPEAKER_01]: So still in the same industry, I love it.
50:43.773 --> 50:44.793
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
50:44.933 --> 50:49.155
[SPEAKER_01]: If you get interviewed anyone like during your bio cycle days, who would it be?
50:49.175 --> 50:50.395
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Cory Booker.
50:50.824 --> 50:51.104
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
50:51.385 --> 50:52.266
[SPEAKER_00]: New Jersey Senator.
50:52.286 --> 50:52.746
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
50:53.327 --> 50:53.707
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
50:54.007 --> 50:54.528
[SPEAKER_01]: I love him.
50:54.608 --> 50:57.591
[SPEAKER_01]: So that would definitely be a good one in some of the efforts he's leading.
50:58.051 --> 50:58.452
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
50:58.492 --> 51:00.754
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're at time, but we'll ask two more questions.
51:01.255 --> 51:05.359
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the most unusual composable item you've seen certified?
51:05.719 --> 51:11.345
[SPEAKER_00]: We have not certified this one ourselves to be clear, but composable bed sheets used at a college orientation.
51:11.785 --> 51:12.346
[SPEAKER_01]: interesting.
51:12.666 --> 51:20.094
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's definitely interesting when I would love that could be a whole segment on itself, you know, around the certification in how they make that claim.
51:20.234 --> 51:20.535
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
51:20.855 --> 51:28.663
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in seven seconds, tell us one reason why composting and packaging should be at the center of climate strategy.
51:29.004 --> 51:33.028
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the tool to unlock composting as a nature based climate solution.
51:33.707 --> 51:36.530
[SPEAKER_00]: and solve issues related to food contact packaging.
51:37.070 --> 51:38.191
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, I love that.
51:38.952 --> 51:41.274
[SPEAKER_01]: And okay, so I'm gonna ask you, this is a bonus one.
51:41.394 --> 51:43.375
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm based upon your favorite author.
51:43.836 --> 51:49.060
[SPEAKER_01]: So window berry, mentioning one of his books, and I want you to name the book this possibly came from.
51:49.701 --> 51:54.125
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he said agriculture is the foundation of America's greater culture.
51:54.145 --> 51:55.706
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what book that came from?
51:55.726 --> 51:57.247
[SPEAKER_00]: The unsettling of America.
51:57.548 --> 51:58.108
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is.
51:58.128 --> 51:58.428
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
51:59.634 --> 52:01.154
[SPEAKER_00]: Now that's one of my favorite of his books.
52:01.235 --> 52:02.695
[SPEAKER_00]: So I got lucky.
52:02.995 --> 52:06.916
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that was actually fitting for us to round out for today's conversations.
52:07.016 --> 52:09.117
[SPEAKER_01]: So Rhodes, thank you so much for sharing.
52:09.517 --> 52:16.999
[SPEAKER_01]: Let everyone know how they can get in contact with you, how to get registered for the BPI summit, and also how to learn more about BPI as well.
52:17.299 --> 52:23.041
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so most of that information is on our website, uh, BPIworld.org or on our LinkedIn page.
52:23.201 --> 52:25.282
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the best way to keep up to date with us.
52:25.762 --> 52:26.283
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
52:26.783 --> 52:32.869
[SPEAKER_01]: And ladies and gentlemen, all the information that we talked about during today's episode is down in the show notes for you all.
52:33.329 --> 52:51.926
[SPEAKER_01]: So you learned from Rosie Epson, who is the Executive Director at BPI, talk about the biodegradable versus composting industry, what policy and systems we need for traceability and trackability, as well as how to make sure you're intentional about what you're creating to be part of your value chain.
52:52.446 --> 52:55.229
[SPEAKER_01]: So, thank you all so much for tuning in to today's episode.
52:55.330 --> 53:02.057
[SPEAKER_01]: Make sure you do follow like and subscribe to all of our platforms and get engaged with our featured powerhouse for today, Rose Yepsen.
53:02.457 --> 53:05.621
[SPEAKER_01]: So, thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you on the next segment.
00:00.976 --> 00:09.879
[SPEAKER_01]: Here at the Product Hip Packaging Powerhouse, our key mission is really to help with unveiling the realities of product development, packaging strategies and business tactics.
00:10.399 --> 00:18.361
[SPEAKER_01]: In powering you, product maneuvers and brands to advance a send and accelerate your products into your marketplace.
00:21.249 --> 00:22.289
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, everyone.
00:22.390 --> 00:26.011
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to today's segment right here on the product and packaging powerhouse.
00:26.431 --> 00:28.352
[SPEAKER_01]: I am your show host, Megan Young-Gamble.
00:28.572 --> 00:32.474
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you've been rocking with us, you know, my new co-host, that's right.
00:32.574 --> 00:36.636
[SPEAKER_01]: My God, our Alaya is joining us for our conversations for today.
00:37.096 --> 00:40.278
[SPEAKER_01]: So we definitely appreciate you all for tuning in to today's segment.
00:40.418 --> 00:45.520
[SPEAKER_01]: And I am so excited for this conversation with today's featured powerhouse guests.
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[SPEAKER_01]: because if you've always heard about the terminology, composable packaging, or a possibly a part about biodegradable packaging, we're gonna get into that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's right, my girls already let you know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're about to get into it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we're gonna have today's feature powerhouse really talk about what is composable packaging, how you can start getting certified around, composable packaging, and also what is some legislation and policy around this industry as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So today's feature powerhouse guest is Roll to Yepsen.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He is a powerhouse in the composable industry, so I'm so excited for this conversation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He is the executive director at BPI, known as Biodegradable Products Institute, where he has led organization's transformation into an international leader in the composable and bio-economy spaces, twenty-fifteen, so for over ten years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Also, he has over fifteen years of experience in the sustainability and circular system, where he is a recognized voice on compost
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[SPEAKER_01]: compost policy, certifications, and infrastructure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He also is a former journalist with vial cycle magazines.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So when I say he is passionate about the circuit economy and composting and compostable packaging and the economy, he is the guru for this conversation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So ladies and gentlemen, welcome today's feature powerhouse guest, Rose Yepsen.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So Rose, welcome to the house.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thanks for having me and thanks for that nice introduction.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, so I'm so excited for our conversation today and you can tell my girl is as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So to get us started, it's a share with our viewers and listeners, bro, share a little bit about yourself and how you came into the world of compost packaging and biodegradable packaging from a journalist to now being the Executive Director at BPI.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's, it's a little bit of a unique journey there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So what took me down this path, I'd say, was really an interesting
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sustainability and environmental topics at a fairly young age.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that I grew up in rural Pennsylvania and my parents worked also in publishing for a little bit before my mom went back to be a guidance counselor at a elementary school.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so my dad had written a lot of books and edited on organic agriculture at Rodeal Press.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I always had this kind of interest in local food, gardening, sustainability, and when I went to college, I studied environmental studies, politics, and history at a liberal arts college, and kind of squirreled all these topics around, and was trying to figure out, how do I blend this all into my interest in my passions?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Do I want to be a writer and an editor like my dad?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Do I want to work on local food systems?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I had
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[SPEAKER_00]: Some are internships during college in Philadelphia at the Center for Food Safety, working with children in West Philadelphia, looking at local food systems in urban gardens.
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[SPEAKER_00]: After college, I got an internship at some literary quarterlies in San Francisco, you know, trying to try my hand at editing and understanding what that side of things were.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I kind of swirled around and landed me at Biocycle Magazine, which was close to home.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was an offshoot of Rotale Press.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So my parents had known that
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[SPEAKER_00]: the publisher from their earlier days.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I got an internship there for a summer just saying, I think I know what composting is, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Just picturing backyard composting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it was, they weren't looking to hire a full-time editor.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't looking to stay close to where I had grown up.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was just looked like a summer gig.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But the stars aligned.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was just this perfect mix of being able to mash my passions of writing and editing and food systems and
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[SPEAKER_00]: understanding this broader world of connection to environmental sustainability.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One of the articles that I researched many research a lot of articles over those years at Biocycle was around compostable packaging and around residential food composting and access.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that kind of took me down this rabbit hole of understanding why don't we have more cities with access to food scrap composting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of that was due to contamination and how do you scale.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so, you know, interviewing all these early biopolymer companies about what they were working on.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I just found it really fascinating.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So eventually I left biocycle, had some consulting gigs and got hired by a biopolymer company.
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[SPEAKER_00]: got onto the board of directors at BPI and when the founding executive director was retiring, I put my name in the hat and on the rest of his history ten years later, you know, have really taken this organization and kind of shaped it and helped it grow to where it is today.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That is such an incredible journey and I love how you really got started because of your parents and how your dad was a journalist, you know, really studying about agriculture to then leads your passion around environmental studies and in your internships
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[SPEAKER_01]: and how you became a full circle moment, you know, with you becoming a journalist like your dad, you know, studying agriculture and environmental impact.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So then where you are now with BPI.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's such a phenomenal journey, you know, that you've really taken and I always tell people, you know, from my own experience, you know, I took some detours to get to the destination.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But it seemed like you've always been on this journey towards this destination, you know, because of your love and
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[SPEAKER_01]: I also wanted to understand the impact around residential, composable packaging or recycling, excuse me, and what that looks like.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm based in Atlanta, Georgia, and some people compost most of us do not, in transparency, because of the resources or lack of resources.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I know there are some organizations out there
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, from a residential standpoint that can't help with composable recycling as well, but I want to get into the resources here shortly, but I just love your story and how you came about into the space.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So since you've been at BPI as the executive director now, which is.
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[SPEAKER_01]: phenomenal that you went from border directors to executive director.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Share with us a little bit about who BPI is and what your core mission is and how you're really integrated into really advocating around the circular system and economy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say, you know, I think it's interesting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The whole concept of is something in life a detour or is it
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[SPEAKER_00]: part of just a broader loop because I think it depends on who you're talking to and how you frame it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I described it in a pretty linear path to you, but I could describe it in a totally different way where you'd be like, whoa, you took so many detours, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it's all about how you weave that together and kind of take your opportunities and use those to shape and inform your path that, you know, looking in retrospective may look a little linear, but it has all, it definitely has all these detours around there that just kind of inform why you chose those
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[SPEAKER_00]: opportunities.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that really helps also, yeah, to your question about, you know, who BPI is and the approach that I take with, uh, with leading BPI.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So our organization has been around since nineteen ninety nine on this second executive director.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's also also often a question like, did I found BPI?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The organization was set up, like I said in nineteen ninety nine, sort of on this cusp of companies working on a lot of innovations around plastics and packaging.
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[SPEAKER_00]: As well as the growth of the compost industry, the US composting council is a little bit older than us, I believe, and they got their origin also from this perspective of solid waste composting, right, an organized composting with roots back to proctor and gamble and a diaper that they were marketing as biodegradable or compostable, which led to
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[SPEAKER_00]: believe it or not, biocycle writing a lot of investigative journalism about the Procter and Campbell diaper saying, hey, how are people actually going to compost these diapers?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that led to donations to set up the U.S.
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[SPEAKER_00]: composting council a few years later, they had a composting handbook from the U.S.
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[SPEAKER_00]: composting council explaining how large scale composting could be done and managed safely in terms of pathogens from unstable and mature compost.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And you had this work at ASTM
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[SPEAKER_00]: which is a standard setting body, developing test criteria around compostable polymers and plastics aligned with that composting handbook to say, okay, here's how you run a large scale composting facility taking a variety of materials from some of the more serious feedstocks that need care like human waste.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, through food waste yard trimmings, manure, things like that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then on the other side, here tests in criteria when you're designing a plastic package or additives into paper and fiber,
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[SPEAKER_00]: to make sure that those also will safely compose and break down.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So once those ASCM standards were set up, VPI was formed as a, you know, member-based trade association, Five O-N-C-Six nonprofit, and the first certification program watched was in concert with the US composting council.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The logo had both organizations, names on it, and was the licensed agreement talked about this partnership between the composting handbook and the ASCM standards.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that was sort of the bedrock of our organization is how do you start to, with a fairly product-based focus, start looking at systems, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And how does this, how do packaging companies and, you know, innovators and raw materials start to align, test appropriately, have a third-party group to have a logo that aligns the value chain.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, over the years, our organization has grown and done more things that trade associations do, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So beyond the certification program, which is still the bedrock and sort of the engine behind our group, which we continue to evolve.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We've set up committees to bring together that value chain from the, again, the raw material producers to the packaging converter.
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[SPEAKER_00]: the brand owner, the retailer, restaurant, municipalities, food scrap haulers and composers all represented in our membership and on our board of directors and in our committees.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So our committees are sometimes organized by topic area like policy or standards and procedures for our certification or marketing and comms as we think about how we combat negative narratives and promote success stories.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then sometimes they're organized by stakeholder groups.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We have a composer and municipality committee that's just for that group so they can have peer-to-peer learning.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So our organization kind of does a few things across that sector.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But it's really that power of convening and offering tools and resources for anyone who wants to see compostable and biodegradable materials succeed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And thank you so much for sharing that because at the end of the day for organizations, the value chain is so critical.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And one thing I always tell my viewers and listeners is, I bring the different stakeholders to the table for us to have the conversations and to collaborate efforts, because just like you mentioned with BPI, you're bringing their retailers, you're bringing the brains, you're bringing the food scrap recyclers, you know, packaging providers and suppliers, et cetera, to the table to make sure that you're offering value, but also defining what the value chain looks like in reference of biodegradable and compostable packaging.
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[SPEAKER_01]: still expanding upon this composable packaging, because as you mentioned with resources, ladies and gentlemen, BPI, their information is down in the show notes for you all.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They have a great section on their learn page that talks about biodegradable versus composable packaging.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, roads, I would love to ask you, what is the difference between biodegradable and composable packaging?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because I do see these terminologies being used interchangeably,
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[SPEAKER_01]: But per your website, there are some differences.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So can you share a little bit about the differences until our audience today?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's definitely one that we get asked a lot, and I think is important to get into, because sometimes the knee-jerk reaction is to either think that they're the same thing, or think that they're totally different, or that you should only use one term, not the other one, and we've seen that play out in real life in policies, which we could talk about, that I think had good intent, but I've kind of led to this division of, always say this, never say that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so ultimately, I think about it, as about a great ability, is the big circle.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and compostability is the smaller circle as a subset.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So biodegradation is talking about the ability of naturally occurring microorganisms to break down and consume carbon as a food source.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But you need to define that to be able to have a meaningful claim.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So when you're talking about the ability to design materials to make a to test
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[SPEAKER_00]: and make a claim based on those tests to have a certification like ours, to have policy to guide what is an appropriate term to use for marketing and sales.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You have to be a little bit more specific than biodegradable.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So biodegradable is a scientific term.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But once you start to define the environment and the timeframe and the past fail criteria, that's when you have to get a little bit more specific.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so for us, the primary environment that we're talking about is composting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: either large scale composting, which can be called commercial or industrial composting or home composting, which really just means smaller scale.
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[SPEAKER_00]: lower temperature longer time frame.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Biodegradation does happen in a lot of other environments, but when they're uncontrolled environments, that can be a little bit harder.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if you think about slightly less controlled and composting would be soiled by what a great ability for something like a agricultural mulch film or a drip tape used in a field.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So still natural biodegradation happening there, but it's not necessarily actively managed like a compost process.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Then you get even further down, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Then you have like a aquatic biodegradability and salt water or fresh water, so much variability there where you're talking about temperature.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Again, whether it's salt water or fresh or brackish somewhere in between, is the item floating or hovering in the middle or sinking when it gets into water, which and plus we don't, most of the time, we don't want plastic ending up in the water.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not a desire to end of life compared to an agricultural product in soil or composting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so for us, yeah, at Compostability, when we're talking about that smaller circle, we're thinking about the power of our certification to align that value chain.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And looking at the specific testing criteria that need to be used to make a responsible claim of Compostability.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not just one test.
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[SPEAKER_00]: in the standards that are used.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So when we're thinking about complicity, you need to think about the raw material and its ability to biodegrade and compost.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that big circle, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So can the microorganisms eat the carbon in the material and use it as a food source and completely convert that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So you're not left with microplastics and things it persists.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Does it disintegrate, which is that physical visual breakdowns, or the mechanical breakdown, or weathering, so the large item into smaller items?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then also things like heavy metals, which are really important for composers who use the same exact heavy metals tests, but we have a stricter limit than what's used for compost, plant toxicity, same test use to determine stability and maturity for compost.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We use for armaturels as well, looking at seed emergence and seed vigor, the biomass,
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[SPEAKER_00]: from the plants, right, weighing them to make sure that there's no negative impact on the compost, including some other tests, just sort of like wonky ones to help sort of fires like an infrared test where we're doing kind of a fingerprint so we can compare materials as they go through certification and re-certification.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh wait, listeners and viewers, did you hear that?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because that is a whole masterclass that Rose just gave us in reference to biodegradable, which is the large circle that umbrellas sort of speak.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then how composable or composable packaging falls underneath that, looking at the raw materials, how it disintegrates, you know, based upon the carbon, you know, based upon the carbon breakdown into it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that is a whole masterclass world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for breaking that down.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because as I mentioned, we see a lot of biodegradable use as like a marketing
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[SPEAKER_01]: word and incorporated incorporates like their sales copy, marketing claims, etc.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so he just shared how you can prevent misleading, you know, having misleading claims around using biodegradable and such.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So all the resources and what we talk about with the respect of page is down in the show notes for you all because as Rose mentioned, BPI's big about providing education and resources around this industry because
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of greenwashing in transparency that we're seeing in girls.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure with your overfitting really over thirty years of experience, you know, starting back from school and understanding environmental studies as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You've seen a lot of greenwashing over the times, you know, in food industry, beverage industry, beauty, just really as a whole.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so my question to you is, you know, when brands are starting to really
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[SPEAKER_01]: really defined and started to think about their packaging and wanted to use composable packaging and start making the claims, you know, and want to prevent using green washing, you know, as part of their sales and marketing, what would you recommend to brands to think about when they're wanted to use composable packaging and also what does the certifications need to look like, or what are the standards for certifications, our rather side.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I think
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[SPEAKER_00]: To me, when you're thinking about, it's sort of business to consumer versus business to business or business to government types of claims.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And to me, when you're thinking about a business to consumer claim for consumer goods, that's where the word biodegradable doesn't have a whole lot of place unless it has a ton of extra context.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because what you want is to be able to have your claim when you're talking about the end of life for that package, be instructional.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Need the consumer to understand what they're going to do with that item when they're finished with it after it's first use right to.
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[SPEAKER_00]: package your goods safely and get them to you to have your user experience of unpacking and eating or whatever it is for that use.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They need to know what to do with that item.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of other claims related to what happened to make that product to make it more sustainable with plant-based content or recycled materials or whatever the case may be.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But in terms of the end of life, we aren't really thinking pretty narrowly at our organization about composting when it comes to a consumer claim.
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[SPEAKER_00]: When we're thinking, um, business to business, then yeah, you maybe you can have a more nuanced claim thinking about soil biodegradability for agricultural mulch film as a perfect example, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's not a consumer claim.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's really business to business, explaining to a farmer, okay, here's a tool that works for you in your farm field.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Here's how you can use it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Here's why it's not really compostability that you're looking for.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're looking for the ability to till that mulch film into your field.
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[SPEAKER_00]: after you're done with it, or aquatic biodegradability.
19:28.795 --> 19:36.219
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, not really appropriate in our minds in most contexts for consumers, because we don't want it to ever imply that you could litter that item.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We still need that consumer to know where to put the item at the end of its life, which is not into the marine environment.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's into a controlled bin.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But it still has some value for business to business or business to government as we think about how do we start to grapple with all the plastics entering our waterways and our food systems
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[SPEAKER_00]: for sure, understanding and testing for those other scenarios is great, and that B to B be to G. But B to C consumer, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: They need that instruction.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So to avoid greenwashing, we really say focus on that end of life instruction, right?
20:06.705 --> 20:08.045
[SPEAKER_00]: What been are they putting it in?
20:08.505 --> 20:15.726
[SPEAKER_00]: And communities, even the ones with the robust, fully blown out systems, which is not most of the US tier point, it's three bins, right?
20:15.866 --> 20:18.347
[SPEAKER_00]: It's trash, recycling, compost.
20:18.727 --> 20:22.169
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you need to tell that person which been to put it in, right?
20:22.229 --> 20:27.533
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're talking about biodegradability, writ large, to a consumer, which been to they put it in, right?
20:27.913 --> 20:29.114
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't explain what to do.
20:29.214 --> 20:33.156
[SPEAKER_00]: So some companies, yeah, fall down the greenwashing hole of, oh, it's biodegradable landfills.
20:33.256 --> 20:34.037
[SPEAKER_00]: Put it in the trash.
20:34.177 --> 20:36.818
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, that's not necessarily something that we want.
20:37.038 --> 20:38.479
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't recover that material.
20:38.779 --> 20:46.924
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of question around the science of things like an additive into a conventional plastic, claim to biodegrade in a landfill.
20:48.278 --> 20:55.566
[SPEAKER_00]: And so again, we've really pushed towards how do you redesign to get that item out of the trash and into the compost bin.
20:56.487 --> 21:05.738
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've also seen right that play out in the FTC green guides and then I think I referenced earlier right that you've seen states start to issue policies to try to control this.
21:06.101 --> 21:22.634
[SPEAKER_00]: So California, unsurprisingly, was the first, and has had several iterations, but other states like Washington, Colorado, Minnesota, and Maryland all have laws that actually prohibit the term biodegradable for consumer claims on packaging because of what I just talked about.
21:22.994 --> 21:27.738
[SPEAKER_00]: So they prohibit the term biodegradable, degradable, or other similar terms on consumer packaging.
21:27.878 --> 21:33.763
[SPEAKER_00]: And they say, if you want to use the word compostable, that is appropriate, but you must meet
21:34.046 --> 21:41.902
[SPEAKER_00]: the STM standards for compostability or some comparable standard and increasingly those states are improving through iteration those laws and saying
21:42.233 --> 21:47.695
[SPEAKER_00]: In addition to meeting the standard, you also have to be certified by somebody and you have to properly label that item.
21:47.975 --> 21:56.758
[SPEAKER_00]: In the case of Colorado and Washington, they get into specific colors that you have to use, green or brown or beige with striping or tinting for bags.
21:56.778 --> 22:01.680
[SPEAKER_00]: They get into composable bags, they get into specific font size to make sure that you're not making that claim too small.
22:02.140 --> 22:05.062
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, we have a lot of information on our website about that in that nuance.
22:05.342 --> 22:08.583
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's been really interesting to see how states have evolved to help with that.
22:09.003 --> 22:22.788
[SPEAKER_00]: That question that you're talking about, Megan, of how do companies, how do we guide companies to do the right thing to invest their energy in the right place and not fall down a path of misleading consumers or, you know, lawsuits with states that have these laws.
22:22.808 --> 22:25.849
[SPEAKER_01]: Such a good point because, like I mentioned, I'm in Atlanta.
22:25.949 --> 22:31.051
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we have our efforts are good, but we still have a long way to go.
22:31.071 --> 22:35.012
[SPEAKER_01]: It's nowhere in comparison to the state of Washington to Oregon to Colorado.
22:35.755 --> 22:44.981
[SPEAKER_01]: California, California is leading a lot of efforts here in reference of the start three economy in the policies that are rolling now.
22:45.001 --> 22:51.604
[SPEAKER_01]: But here in Atlanta, we even have a hard time of knowing if things should go in the trash or going in recycling bins first off.
22:51.785 --> 22:54.186
[SPEAKER_01]: To then lead into, that's right, baby.
22:54.586 --> 22:59.990
[SPEAKER_01]: So then evenly into, should it go into a separate bin, respectfully for composting?
23:00.090 --> 23:04.012
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I go to my local groceries or publics, for example,
23:04.499 --> 23:12.365
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they have some of the bins for recycling the plastic bags, but when you look at all the bins that are out there, a lot of big is very confusing.
23:12.585 --> 23:17.929
[SPEAKER_01]: So for a consumer and you're thinking about into life, you're like, well, where am I supposed to put this?
23:18.509 --> 23:19.530
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have any instructions.
23:19.550 --> 23:21.732
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what should go, what shouldn't go.
23:22.252 --> 23:28.597
[SPEAKER_01]: And then if you go and tour like our local recycling centers and have those conversations with them, a lot of it's going in the trash.
23:28.757 --> 23:32.560
[SPEAKER_01]: So to your point, if we have more information,
23:33.116 --> 23:40.359
[SPEAKER_01]: that helps us as the consumers think about and understand what the end of life should look like and what we should be doing.
23:40.459 --> 23:46.682
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's where extended for this responsibility comes in and other policies respectfully it would be so much it would be a lot better.
23:46.742 --> 23:49.183
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're not having a lot of plastics or a lot of
23:49.721 --> 23:55.645
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, food waste going to the land fields and it's not properly sorted and it is a bigger impact.
23:55.685 --> 23:58.127
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and to our climate, you know, sort of speak.
23:58.207 --> 24:13.138
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's so many things around this, you know, and I'm sure with you being a champion around this industry, been studying it for years and also seeing where we're going for the food waste packaging and understanding the policy.
24:13.178 --> 24:15.200
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's really like the traffic to sort of speak.
24:15.810 --> 24:25.878
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, with all the policies and regulatory shifts that we're seeing in today's market, where do you see this industry heading within like the next three to five years?
24:26.298 --> 24:43.291
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's an exciting and somewhat scary time thinking about the interest in the role of public policy in our country, thinking about these different drivers for both getting food out of landfills and solving our packaging
24:43.738 --> 24:46.419
[SPEAKER_00]: problems, right, and having more packaging recovery.
24:46.840 --> 24:50.782
[SPEAKER_00]: And more often than not, these efforts are pretty disjointed.
24:51.062 --> 24:52.583
[SPEAKER_00]: And we see this all around the world.
24:53.103 --> 24:59.747
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we've been involved with some of the UN Plastics Treaty negotiations that have been happening.
24:59.767 --> 25:01.968
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm to really try to get a global
25:02.567 --> 25:22.978
[SPEAKER_00]: packed right around how do we manage plastic pollution it's so focused on plastic right and I get it why right plastic in the oceans of marine pollution nobody wants plastic in the oceans right that's a pretty unifying thing to work on but it's so my opically focused on plastic right it's not packaging writ large it's not our waste stream
25:23.380 --> 25:24.461
[SPEAKER_00]: writ large, right?
25:24.521 --> 25:30.145
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not connected to the infrastructure and the lack of infrastructure for waste management.
25:30.205 --> 25:42.475
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, you know, there is some acknowledgement in that conversation at a global level of, oh, a lot of countries lack insufficient waste management infrastructure and think about how much investment it will need through things like extended producer responsibility for recycling.
25:42.797 --> 25:43.958
[SPEAKER_00]: But it kind of stops there.
25:44.259 --> 25:47.503
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've been a champion joining those conversations to be like, whoa, hold on a second.
25:47.983 --> 25:48.624
[SPEAKER_00]: Think about this.
25:48.804 --> 25:53.189
[SPEAKER_00]: The food is the number one thing in our landfills in countries all around the world.
25:53.650 --> 25:55.552
[SPEAKER_00]: And the packaging, it's not just plastic, right?
25:55.572 --> 25:57.975
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of other packaging in our landfills today.
25:58.315 --> 26:02.060
[SPEAKER_00]: And how do we think about why recycling hasn't been working?
26:02.584 --> 26:05.626
[SPEAKER_00]: at a local level, a state, a country, or a global level.
26:05.686 --> 26:18.956
[SPEAKER_00]: So your point, like you're struggling to have access, even in our country, to curbside recycling, much less composting, and then you're finding out that in some cases, right, there for whatever reasons, we aren't getting to those recovery numbers that everybody wants, right, to be clear.
26:19.717 --> 26:22.259
[SPEAKER_00]: The packaging and brands also bump that recovery.
26:22.599 --> 26:28.403
[SPEAKER_00]: And so figuring out that why, and thinking about, well, where are some of those opportunities of where a compostable product's fit in?
26:28.423 --> 26:30.585
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I won't proclaim to be the expert on
26:30.998 --> 26:34.159
[SPEAKER_00]: exactly why recycling is or is not working in certain instances.
26:34.179 --> 26:36.200
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of people who are really good at that.
26:36.840 --> 26:48.163
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the value and the opportunity for composting that's so exciting is you think about the ability to remove some of those difficulties of a global recycling network, right?
26:48.203 --> 26:56.485
[SPEAKER_00]: Where you have to have these large, very capital intensive recycling facilities and you have to have uniform high quality bales of material, right?
26:56.505 --> 26:58.426
[SPEAKER_00]: So large volumes of consistent material
26:59.060 --> 27:05.325
[SPEAKER_00]: buyers to reprocess that when you're talking about composting, that's inherently local, right?
27:05.365 --> 27:09.769
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to ship our food scraps over to another country in Asia to reprocess them.
27:10.110 --> 27:11.230
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to be managed locally.
27:11.271 --> 27:13.072
[SPEAKER_00]: They rot quickly, they're heavy, they're wet.
27:13.412 --> 27:16.455
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when you're thinking about compostable packaging and its ability to help
27:16.980 --> 27:23.682
[SPEAKER_00]: divert that food scraps and the packaging material, it's going to stay in a local regional system, right?
27:23.802 --> 27:26.043
[SPEAKER_00]: And it provides all these entrepreneurial benefits.
27:26.083 --> 27:28.804
[SPEAKER_00]: So in some ways, California is this amazing leader for sure.
27:29.064 --> 27:39.788
[SPEAKER_00]: In other ways, like Atlanta, Georgia, you have one of the other country leaders in compost and compost now who's been around for a while and has an amazing business to help fill in some of those gaps.
27:40.168 --> 27:44.970
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that that's what's really exciting to me is thinking about where we're headed and how
27:45.390 --> 28:03.350
[SPEAKER_00]: those policies can start to align our efforts to get food out of landfills and our efforts to manage our packaging and provide those incentives to build local and regional systems in our own country and I think hopefully unify us right like that's a pretty bipartisan thing when we think about rural development you know urban quality of life
28:03.703 --> 28:06.285
[SPEAKER_00]: The ability to have access to these systems to have U.S.
28:06.325 --> 28:15.633
[SPEAKER_00]: businesses making the packaging out of agricultural feed sucks grown in the U.S., composting it using that compost to regenerate our soils and have local food systems.
28:16.377 --> 28:22.520
[SPEAKER_00]: There are just so many opportunities to have that be a pretty America first-style program to unify everybody.
28:22.600 --> 28:26.562
[SPEAKER_00]: Like nobody is going to disagree with that in a bipartisan sense.
28:26.582 --> 28:45.570
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's where I find the hope is as our politicians at the local state and federal level start to realize that bipartisan nature, right, that this is an easy win, talking about composting and compostable packaging, that we can really, we are as our country, some of the have some of the best innovation around these
28:46.212 --> 28:59.080
[SPEAKER_00]: biomaterials, and we've got great entrepreneurs figuring out how to compost in different situations, whether you have a state that has great policies, driving it or just from the entrepreneurial sense like in Atlanta.
28:59.941 --> 29:06.305
[SPEAKER_01]: We still have a long ways to go like you said, but from what did you mention your reference to the urban planning and policy?
29:07.062 --> 29:17.384
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe that there could be an opportunity when we're looking at the development, like new development or updating or continues to improve when up developments in different areas.
29:17.964 --> 29:24.266
[SPEAKER_01]: I personally believe we could have such matters like yourself and other policy makers being part of those conversations.
29:24.706 --> 29:30.367
[SPEAKER_01]: So it can be more of a positive impact versus it versus being rehabbed in the approach because
29:31.072 --> 29:33.515
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I live, I really live in the suburbs in Atlanta.
29:33.796 --> 29:35.879
[SPEAKER_01]: We just all say we're from Atlanta because that's where most people know.
29:36.339 --> 29:38.402
[SPEAKER_01]: But I live like twenty minutes from Atlanta.
29:38.743 --> 29:44.010
[SPEAKER_01]: And in my minutes of the recycling guidelines are different in the city of Atlanta, recycling.
29:44.538 --> 29:47.561
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, and when you go to like, that's right, baby.
29:47.941 --> 29:56.150
[SPEAKER_01]: And even when you go into, I've Mercedes-Benz stadiums, State Farm Arena, like these big arenas, and you're seeing like what their sustainability initiatives are.
29:56.510 --> 30:06.120
[SPEAKER_01]: Mercedes-Benz is leading the efforts for a lot of it in packaging, speaking in there, you know, for some of their food and beverage at the concessions, which is great, you know, but when you go to
30:06.823 --> 30:12.905
[SPEAKER_01]: Philips Arena, you know, not as much, you know, and we barely have been so very accessible, so too.
30:13.105 --> 30:21.589
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody needs to be at the table and really starting to be part of these conversations, you know, from the beginning because there's so much to think about, especially food waste.
30:21.929 --> 30:30.792
[SPEAKER_01]: Like looking at how much food waste is in our landfill, I feel like they can go to other measures, you know, outside of composable packaging, you know, but that's a whole not the topic.
30:30.992 --> 30:33.293
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, there's a lot to think about.
30:33.513 --> 30:35.154
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's so much policy
30:35.634 --> 30:38.455
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're in its empathy stage, but still have a long way to go.
30:38.975 --> 30:46.737
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like the recycling infrastructure long way to go, you know, to be similar to, you know, some of the other standards we see, respectfully like in the EU.
30:47.217 --> 30:48.337
[SPEAKER_01]: But we're slowly getting there.
30:48.858 --> 30:52.739
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're making great strides, but still a little ways to go for sure.
30:53.159 --> 30:54.179
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
30:54.459 --> 30:59.120
[SPEAKER_00]: And, oh, just talking about it, Atlanta a little bit in this ability to, and the differences.
30:59.180 --> 31:02.041
[SPEAKER_00]: So BPI holds an annual summit every year.
31:02.648 --> 31:17.505
[SPEAKER_00]: And we rotate locations around the country and our summit this year is actually going to be in Atlanta in September and is a great form to bring together local government officials state and federal and we have a tour of the state farm arena.
31:17.904 --> 31:20.987
[SPEAKER_00]: to look at their operations for composting.
31:21.407 --> 31:25.030
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I hear you on how, you know, it's important to get all those people together.
31:25.090 --> 31:27.432
[SPEAKER_00]: So like add an event like the BPI summit.
31:27.672 --> 31:33.397
[SPEAKER_00]: I think also virtual convenings can be really helpful to talk through things and being able to frame topics.
31:33.417 --> 31:46.488
[SPEAKER_00]: So like one of the things we're going to be talking about at the BPI summit this year is trying to unpack and understand what extended producer responsibility means for composting because most BPR systems for packaging around the world are only for recycling.
31:46.842 --> 31:53.944
[SPEAKER_00]: The only one that's in practice today, up and running that includes composting in a robust way in the world, is in Italy, the EPR system.
31:54.764 --> 32:07.267
[SPEAKER_00]: So in Italy, the EPR system does successfully track composable product sales, allocate that money towards composting systems, but all the other EPR systems that are up and running today don't do that for composting.
32:07.567 --> 32:09.628
[SPEAKER_00]: It's allocating all that money towards recycling.
32:09.888 --> 32:14.349
[SPEAKER_00]: So BPI has focused a lot on getting in the US as states pass EPR laws for packaging,
32:14.719 --> 32:17.020
[SPEAKER_00]: getting composting fully recognized in those laws.
32:17.100 --> 32:22.962
[SPEAKER_00]: So composters seats on the advisory boards, making sure that composting is well defined in those laws.
32:23.282 --> 32:31.725
[SPEAKER_00]: Then again, when we're talking about redesign, we're not talking just about how do you reduce packaging, how do you define reuse and refill, how do you define recyclability.
32:31.985 --> 32:34.786
[SPEAKER_00]: But then we have this third pathway for recovery.
32:34.867 --> 32:37.107
[SPEAKER_00]: So reuse refill, recycling, and composting.
32:37.347 --> 32:41.029
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we've been pretty successful in getting that into state laws.
32:41.249 --> 32:44.050
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think one of the things to be able to draw and explain
32:44.520 --> 32:56.453
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, in a place like Atlanta is, you know, what does this mean in terms of even just standardizing systems across the state so that you don't have this problem because what you're describing happens everywhere like the classic example I always get is San Francisco.
32:56.934 --> 32:59.577
[SPEAKER_00]: First city in the US to offer curbside composting.
32:59.917 --> 33:04.199
[SPEAKER_00]: Right has always been a pioneer and a supporter of compostable products with BPI.
33:04.479 --> 33:07.761
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people that work in San Francisco don't live in San Francisco, right?
33:07.801 --> 33:10.742
[SPEAKER_00]: They live in other parts of the bay that are a little more affordable.
33:11.162 --> 33:12.923
[SPEAKER_00]: And the systems aren't aligned, right?
33:12.963 --> 33:21.547
[SPEAKER_00]: So the other parts of the bay area have added composting bins over the years, but the rules are different between San Francisco and Oakland and Berkeley.
33:22.069 --> 33:23.190
[SPEAKER_00]: and Alameda, right?
33:23.210 --> 33:24.911
[SPEAKER_00]: They all are different jurisdictions.
33:24.931 --> 33:27.993
[SPEAKER_00]: And they all have different rules about what goes in the recycling and the composting bin.
33:28.453 --> 33:30.575
[SPEAKER_00]: And it changes from year to year, right?
33:30.635 --> 33:33.296
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is just, yeah, how do we expect people to get it right?
33:33.617 --> 33:42.082
[SPEAKER_00]: If where you work and where you live or where you go see a game or a concert, all have different rules and they change the next time that you go back.
33:42.463 --> 33:42.943
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
33:42.963 --> 33:45.344
[SPEAKER_01]: Because like, I'll go ahead and put my stuff on here.
33:45.945 --> 33:49.087
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just went to the Beyonce concert, which was at the Mercedes bin standing on here.
33:49.935 --> 34:05.018
[SPEAKER_01]: And even at the concert, you know, they had the different places where there was cycle, and I shared how they have some of their food concessions stains that are putting some of their food in composable packaging, called the food packaging, which is fantastic as part of their sustainability effort.
34:05.398 --> 34:06.239
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right, girl.
34:06.779 --> 34:17.561
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, to that point, when I go to say Bomberina, if I go to some of the other respective Marina, you're not the same, you know, not the same practices, you know, being done.
34:18.089 --> 34:19.049
[SPEAKER_01]: you know to that point.
34:19.089 --> 34:22.030
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm so glad the BPI summit is coming to Atlanta.
34:22.050 --> 34:35.755
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope that y'all do this toward the Mercedes-Benz stadium because I think it's phenomenal and learning about their sustainability efforts and ladies and gentlemen, I will have the information for BPI summit down in the show notes for you all because the event's happening is starting September.
34:38.190 --> 34:39.311
[SPEAKER_01]: for the event roads.
34:39.771 --> 34:40.411
[SPEAKER_00]: It's that week.
34:40.451 --> 34:40.752
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:40.772 --> 34:43.793
[SPEAKER_00]: So some of the tour dates are like a pre pre conference.
34:44.254 --> 34:44.534
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:44.554 --> 34:54.180
[SPEAKER_01]: So all the information for the BPI summit viewers and listeners will be down in the show notes for you all as well as to learn more about BPI leading up to the event.
34:54.220 --> 34:55.361
[SPEAKER_01]: So please get involved.
34:55.381 --> 35:00.704
[SPEAKER_01]: Please get engaged as well and look at some of the resources that they offer as well.
35:01.403 --> 35:15.495
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I want to ask you this because you mentioned earlier in our conversation around how BPI is helping to share information and change the narrative of what commercial versus residential composting looks like.
35:16.016 --> 35:25.564
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I would love to ask you what resources, you know, can you help share, you know, on BPI's website or other respective organizations and resources.
35:26.082 --> 35:39.112
[SPEAKER_01]: that a really big about helping homeowners from a residential standpoint to commercial businesses be intentional about composting from storage to collection and positive contributions to the start with economy.
35:39.353 --> 35:39.613
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
35:40.233 --> 35:47.939
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think just to make that distinction between large-scale professionally managed compost piles versus a backyard pile.
35:47.959 --> 35:48.540
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that's
35:49.045 --> 35:59.612
[SPEAKER_00]: probably the biggest distinction from sort of a scientific perspective, but also an ability to understand how to take action as a business or as an individual.
35:59.972 --> 36:14.282
[SPEAKER_00]: And so thinking about that, the fundamental difference there is between a professionally managed, so we would call it commercial or industrial composting facility and a backyard pile tends to be the size of that pile and how actively it's managed
36:14.998 --> 36:24.581
[SPEAKER_00]: So the size of the pile matters because when you don't have enough mass in your pile, it can be really difficult to reach and maintain high temperatures in composting.
36:24.862 --> 36:29.943
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there are kind of some ranges of temperature when you talk about thermophilic temperatures.
36:30.343 --> 36:38.406
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are pretty high optimum temperatures at a commercial composting facility for managing pathogens, killing weed seeds, things like that.
36:38.466 --> 36:43.388
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why commercial and industrial facilities are really needed if we're going to scale this across
36:43.938 --> 36:59.193
[SPEAKER_00]: all communities for managing things like meat and dairy and eggs and compostable packaging at a large scale because they're able to consistently get and maintain those thermophilic temperatures that are high enough to break down compostable packaging quickly.
36:59.213 --> 37:03.517
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm kill pathogens quickly and generate that stable and mature compost.
37:03.862 --> 37:19.711
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, when you're talking about a backyard compost pile or home composting, you can still hit a thermophilic temperature, but it's going to be a small percentage of the population who is willing to put in that effort consistently to manage that pile and get to those thermophilic temperatures.
37:20.032 --> 37:32.599
[SPEAKER_00]: We did a cool study looking at backyard composting in preparation for launching a home compostable certification later this year, where we took the five most common bins from being sold online at at, you know, box stores,
37:33.152 --> 37:35.053
[SPEAKER_00]: and analyze both that sort of it.
37:35.373 --> 37:46.797
[SPEAKER_00]: Individual level, I signed up for the trial as well as hiring some community composers and universities and testing labs to manage these five bins to see, you know, how hot can you get it?
37:47.337 --> 37:51.818
[SPEAKER_00]: How do products claiming home complicity that was certified elsewhere around the world?
37:51.858 --> 37:53.279
[SPEAKER_00]: How do they break down in those bins?
37:53.859 --> 37:58.521
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was fascinating to see, you know, it takes a lot of effort to maintain that home compost bin.
37:58.561 --> 38:02.042
[SPEAKER_00]: And typically, you're going to see more ambient temperatures.
38:02.738 --> 38:11.245
[SPEAKER_00]: compared to outside, right, similar temperature to outside, or mesophilic, which is slightly elevated from ambient, but not quite as high as thermophilic temperatures.
38:11.525 --> 38:15.328
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's good for certain materials to think about like paper and fiber items.
38:15.689 --> 38:24.496
[SPEAKER_00]: The microorganisms and the fungi are pretty happy in that mesophilic and ambient temperature, which I see mushrooms, you know, grow out of a wet lawn sometimes, things like that.
38:24.876 --> 38:29.180
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're really good at breaking down those lignocelliolic materials in a paper or fiber item.
38:29.539 --> 38:32.200
[SPEAKER_00]: and certain bio polymers that are based on cellulose.
38:32.501 --> 38:35.502
[SPEAKER_00]: What I found is you really have to add a lot of water to your backyard pile.
38:35.922 --> 38:47.768
[SPEAKER_00]: One consultant in the project told me like water your home compost bin like you water your garden and that seems crazy to me and I did it and my temperatures was the only time I ever had a thermofilic temperature in my own backyard pile which was kind of interesting.
38:48.009 --> 38:56.373
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think if you're a homeowner and you're a apartment dweller and you're looking to compost and you don't have access from your municipality
38:56.749 --> 39:00.612
[SPEAKER_00]: The things to be thinking about are other things in your kitchen that you could use, right?
39:00.632 --> 39:14.983
[SPEAKER_00]: There are some tools that, you know, tabletop devices that can help process your food scraps, not into compost in your kitchen, but they can dehydrate it and make it less stinky and make it easier to compost later or in a smaller space on a patio.
39:15.043 --> 39:18.566
[SPEAKER_00]: So things, these tabletop food, food, meal type devices.
39:20.391 --> 39:25.132
[SPEAKER_00]: Then you could also have a worm bin if you like worms worms are a little picky to to manage.
39:25.252 --> 39:26.773
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't like a lot of citrus fruit.
39:26.793 --> 39:28.774
[SPEAKER_00]: They're definitely not going to want that meat and dairy.
39:29.014 --> 39:35.356
[SPEAKER_00]: But they can process some things and they make a really nutrient dense compost like substance called vermicompost, which is actually their poop.
39:36.316 --> 39:39.917
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can do a lot with that those vermicastings and you can do that in an apartment.
39:40.323 --> 39:42.284
[SPEAKER_00]: worms don't like really cold or really hot.
39:42.324 --> 39:43.405
[SPEAKER_00]: So an apartment is good for that.
39:43.425 --> 39:45.646
[SPEAKER_00]: If you have a backyard, you can get a compost bin.
39:45.666 --> 39:50.589
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there are tons of ways you can do that from a store bought bin like a tumbler or an insulated bin.
39:50.609 --> 39:54.571
[SPEAKER_00]: If you live in a cold climate, you can build it yourself out of pallets or chicken wire.
39:55.131 --> 39:58.893
[SPEAKER_00]: There are lots of great resources even on the EPA website about that.
39:59.153 --> 40:02.475
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you're a homeowner looking to do that or you know, apartment dwellers, you just
40:02.882 --> 40:14.270
[SPEAKER_00]: Think about your space and think about the materials that you're going to be able to divert and look for items that are marketed and certified as home compostable to break down in those bins that don't require that higher temperature to break down.
40:14.770 --> 40:23.896
[SPEAKER_00]: As a business though, if you're thinking about your materials, you really need to be looking at more organized collection, figuring out what are your hauling contracts allow you to do.
40:24.036 --> 40:29.159
[SPEAKER_00]: So asking your current hauler if they offer a food scrap collection and composting hauling services,
40:30.634 --> 40:41.883
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not in a franchise agreement, depending on where you are in the country, looking to get a hall or to collect that material, there are a lot of brokers who will help with that for businesses, especially businesses with multiple locations.
40:42.264 --> 40:49.250
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a resource called FindAcomposter.com that started with Biocycle Magazine, BPI took over, that helps with that with some maps.
40:49.610 --> 40:50.431
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of maps.
40:50.931 --> 40:55.235
[SPEAKER_00]: Beyond FindAcomposter, a bunch of other communities have maps.
40:55.255 --> 40:58.017
[SPEAKER_00]: The EPA has a excess food waste opportunities map,
40:58.461 --> 41:05.723
[SPEAKER_00]: on their website that explains where food is being generated at large supermarkets and distribution centers as well as where the composting operations are.
41:06.584 --> 41:11.505
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, for a business, you really need that organized collection and management or on-site processing, I guess.
41:11.925 --> 41:19.308
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wait, thank you for helping to differentiate between the residential versus commercial side of composting and what that looks like.
41:19.488 --> 41:26.290
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm happy to hear that you all are incorporating a home, composable certification as well, because to your point,
41:26.832 --> 41:31.834
[SPEAKER_01]: We're seeing so many people, you know, try to compost the right way.
41:32.314 --> 41:55.645
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are some guidelines that should be in place, you know, like you mentioned, having a, you know, a tumbler, you know, that actually has the, you know, residential, composable certification, you know, and the information around that, you know, being displayed on their packaging to large scale or commercial companies where they need to be more organized collection and what that looks like.
41:56.160 --> 42:22.265
[SPEAKER_01]: So we will link the information that Rose mentioned with EPA as well as VPI's website that talks about these aspects too, because there are some nuances that are explained more on their website, but also to help you all be informed around what this looks like and making sure that you are properly collecting and storage and also making sure the temperature, especially for residential composting is at the right level, so it can thrive.
42:22.847 --> 42:26.569
[SPEAKER_01]: you know and make sure how it can get back into the circulary economy as well.
42:26.989 --> 42:33.433
[SPEAKER_01]: And so roads, as we're starting to wrap up today's episode, I want to ask you possibly two final questions.
42:34.153 --> 42:46.380
[SPEAKER_01]: And so everybody talks about composable packaging is not just for plastics, you know, we also need to consider food waste as well as part of this composting effort and how we can go back positively into the circulary economy.
42:46.620 --> 42:51.323
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are some misconceptions around composable packaging and composting.
42:51.925 --> 42:59.189
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to hear from you what are some misconceptions that you hear in this space and how to debug them as well.
42:59.450 --> 43:03.112
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you say that last part, one of the misconceptions about Composibles and what?
43:03.392 --> 43:04.332
[SPEAKER_01]: How to debug them.
43:04.713 --> 43:06.114
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a good question.
43:06.354 --> 43:18.921
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think one of the common misconceptions about Composible Packaging is that there's no value to a Composible product unless you're getting it composted, which is this sort of chicken and egg argument, right?
43:19.261 --> 43:20.002
[SPEAKER_00]: It's commonly
43:20.404 --> 43:29.511
[SPEAKER_00]: put out there that, you know, by naysayers of, oh, well, we shouldn't be working on composable packaging because we don't have that national infrastructure for compost access.
43:29.791 --> 43:34.754
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd say the reason that that's a common misconception is it's like many things.
43:34.814 --> 43:38.437
[SPEAKER_00]: It has a grain of truth, which is yes, absolutely.
43:38.477 --> 43:46.543
[SPEAKER_00]: We need compost access and the ability to compost those items to get the full value out of it, but we need to build those systems in tandem, right?
43:46.643 --> 43:48.304
[SPEAKER_00]: And this idea that you're going to
43:48.805 --> 43:55.350
[SPEAKER_00]: build a national compost access that will work for packaging if the packaging were never invented and we're not did not exist.
43:56.231 --> 43:57.752
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't work, right?
43:58.032 --> 43:59.333
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to take years and
43:59.810 --> 44:18.780
[SPEAKER_00]: billion with a B billions of dollars to develop national compost infrastructure and the way you develop that compost infrastructure is going to be based on the materials that society is deciding should be composted right and so there's some big questions to grapple with here is that just yard waste right leaves and grass and twigs
44:19.338 --> 44:20.139
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it food waste?
44:20.499 --> 44:21.740
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it food waste with packaging?
44:22.161 --> 44:38.135
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it human waste right diapers feminine hygiene products right like that's a whole other realm that isn't really being talked about much right we're just starting to talk about food out of land fills and food associated packaging but there are a lot of other things right pet waste and human waste and feminine hygiene products like
44:38.502 --> 44:39.783
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't recycle those things.
44:40.203 --> 44:44.225
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's either trash or land, yeah, it's either trash and landfills or composting.
44:44.245 --> 44:46.727
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's going to take a whole other composting system.
44:46.747 --> 44:53.391
[SPEAKER_00]: So to me, the big misconceptions there is this idea that let's wait on combustible packaging.
44:53.551 --> 44:55.952
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not valuable until we have that compost access.
44:55.992 --> 45:05.478
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm saying, no, no, no, we need to develop these in tandem together and make sure that with EPR and proper labeling and systems and investments that we're building a system that's really going to work for
45:05.890 --> 45:09.272
[SPEAKER_00]: The materials that society is trying to shape and have in the system.
45:09.392 --> 45:09.993
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
45:10.713 --> 45:23.221
[SPEAKER_01]: And then so to piggyback off that question systems, because at the end of the day, we need systems to help us be efficient for repository, for all this information, for traceability and trackability as well.
45:23.781 --> 45:33.747
[SPEAKER_01]: So what systems would you recommend to be incorporated and how does BPI look at what systems should be incorporated?
45:35.495 --> 45:36.215
[SPEAKER_01]: to your point.
45:36.495 --> 45:36.776
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
45:37.176 --> 45:39.217
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's a really fascinating question.
45:39.297 --> 45:46.159
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the exciting thing and the daunting thing about systems change is how complex it is, right?
45:46.239 --> 45:51.942
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's what makes it exciting is that it's not an easy, easy fix.
45:52.722 --> 46:01.726
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also exciting that as you start to see those interconnections in a systems approach, it's invigorating not scary anymore, right?
46:01.766 --> 46:04.767
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it seems scary first, where you're like, I don't know how to do this, right?
46:05.650 --> 46:07.570
[SPEAKER_00]: I just give me a yes no answer, right?
46:07.610 --> 46:08.811
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like the gray area.
46:09.071 --> 46:11.671
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to know what to do with my package design, right?
46:12.011 --> 46:13.631
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to know what to do with my food waste.
46:14.112 --> 46:15.252
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me what to do, right?
46:15.292 --> 46:17.472
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, okay, well, no, start to understand these systems.
46:17.512 --> 46:19.953
[SPEAKER_00]: And first, it's like, this seems insane, right?
46:20.013 --> 46:25.774
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how do we connect soil health and the quality of our food, backage back to the packaging, right?
46:26.134 --> 46:33.655
[SPEAKER_00]: And what does that mean in terms of a labeling law or funding permitting rules for composting, the methane portion of
46:34.368 --> 46:38.954
[SPEAKER_00]: Compost when you're avoiding food from landfills versus carbon sequestration in the soil, right?
46:39.314 --> 46:43.540
[SPEAKER_00]: And so to me that that systems approach starts to fuel validated and exciting.
46:44.388 --> 46:45.889
[SPEAKER_00]: when they all start to link together.
46:45.909 --> 47:00.814
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think, you know, in a really short way, I could talk about like, simplistically, which doesn't do it justice, you know, you need rules around packaging, which includes definitions of that packaging requirements about how it's going to be labeled, funding related to management of that packaging.
47:00.854 --> 47:07.817
[SPEAKER_00]: But then you need whole other systems around infrastructure, an education for businesses and households to link that together.
47:08.537 --> 47:18.684
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, if food is the number one material on landfills and the EPA estimates, I think it's fifteen billion dollars is needed to get food waste composting access at the same level as trash and recycling.
47:19.004 --> 47:23.487
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not going to be funded by the small fee from compressible products in an EPR system, right?
47:23.527 --> 47:24.527
[SPEAKER_00]: Like to manage the food.
47:24.828 --> 47:26.869
[SPEAKER_00]: So those would be the kind of core elements.
47:26.989 --> 47:28.050
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you for that.
47:28.290 --> 47:36.315
[SPEAKER_01]: And like you said, it depends upon the complexity and this is a complex topic in nature and also how deep.
47:36.731 --> 47:39.533
[SPEAKER_01]: It goes as well for the traceability aspect.
47:39.574 --> 47:54.847
[SPEAKER_01]: So just like you mentioned, you know, with what are the definitions, what are the guidelines, what are the exceptions, what are the, was the testing or success criteria to the testing organizations to other respective organizations and how does it crossover into labeling compliance and regulations.
47:55.167 --> 48:00.972
[SPEAKER_01]: It is very complex, you know, so that's why we need all stakeholders, you know, when you mention about the value change.
48:01.410 --> 48:06.534
[SPEAKER_01]: connecting with the brand owners, the retailers, the food waste for cycling facilities and more.
48:06.874 --> 48:10.997
[SPEAKER_01]: You need everybody, part of this conversation to build out their robust system.
48:11.798 --> 48:14.600
[SPEAKER_01]: And it will take some time to get to that point too.
48:14.780 --> 48:28.411
[SPEAKER_01]: But ladies and gentlemen, BPI does have a resource on their website where if you are looking for a composable packaging, they do have a member of directory and listing based upon the brands that have gotten certified through their organization.
48:28.922 --> 48:32.866
[SPEAKER_01]: So all the information is down and available on their website as well.
48:33.466 --> 48:35.048
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a way for starting.
48:35.168 --> 48:44.897
[SPEAKER_01]: So they have the system, you know, to help link and showcase some of the composable packaging providers from labels to boat trays, utensils and more.
48:45.097 --> 48:46.118
[SPEAKER_01]: I've actually gone through it.
48:46.158 --> 48:47.679
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I'm very impressed.
48:48.100 --> 48:52.764
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so they do have systems incorporate, you know, to give you all started and to
48:53.331 --> 49:00.582
[SPEAKER_01]: Help you be intentional about the packaging that you are procuring, you know, as part of your supply chain strategy and all in value chain as well.
49:00.982 --> 49:01.944
[SPEAKER_01]: So get involved.
49:02.064 --> 49:09.655
[SPEAKER_01]: Look explore reach out to road to information on LinkedIn as well as this direct information and email address is down below.
49:10.117 --> 49:19.141
[SPEAKER_01]: So, ladies and gentlemen, we're getting into our featured power round, where we're going to display ninety seconds on the clock and ask Rose about some of his fun facts that he shared with us.
49:19.781 --> 49:25.003
[SPEAKER_01]: So, we're going to put ninety seconds on the clock, but to give you a preview, on Rose, less of backpacking canoe.
49:25.303 --> 49:31.546
[SPEAKER_01]: He is a former journalist at Biosheckle Magazine, which we've heard early in our conversation, and his favorite author is Windle Berry.
49:32.106 --> 49:38.409
[SPEAKER_01]: So, ninety seconds is on the clock, and we're going to see how many questions he can answer in this time frame.
49:38.429 --> 49:39.229
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Rose, are you ready?
49:39.572 --> 49:39.932
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm ready.
49:40.273 --> 49:40.573
[SPEAKER_01]: Ready.
49:40.753 --> 49:41.234
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go.
49:41.574 --> 49:42.035
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
49:42.115 --> 49:44.317
[SPEAKER_01]: So you love backpacking and canoe in there.
49:44.517 --> 49:45.679
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it at a rocks?
49:46.379 --> 49:47.100
[SPEAKER_00]: At a rendezvous.
49:47.681 --> 49:48.582
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, at a rendezvous.
49:48.842 --> 49:49.363
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
49:49.843 --> 49:51.865
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's your favorite trail or spot?
49:52.206 --> 49:58.853
[SPEAKER_00]: My favorite spot is a spot in an old in their old forge, New York where my family has been going since nineteen oh five.
49:59.234 --> 50:01.036
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, legacy, I love that.
50:01.597 --> 50:05.761
[SPEAKER_01]: And then do you love exploring backpacking and canoeing during sunrise or sunset?
50:06.141 --> 50:06.582
[SPEAKER_00]: Sunset.
50:06.882 --> 50:07.102
[SPEAKER_01]: Sunset.
50:07.122 --> 50:07.403
[SPEAKER_01]: Sunset.
50:07.543 --> 50:08.043
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I bet.
50:08.804 --> 50:13.109
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you could choose backpacking or canoeing, which one would be your preference?
50:13.489 --> 50:13.909
[SPEAKER_00]: canoeing.
50:14.250 --> 50:15.171
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, love it.
50:15.251 --> 50:16.592
[SPEAKER_01]: I try canoeing, not for me.
50:16.692 --> 50:21.958
[SPEAKER_01]: But as a fan of windowberry, what's one quote or idea from his work that you come back to often?
50:22.367 --> 50:31.109
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he talks about food that is cheap at any cost that always resonated with me about sort of the externalities about our food system.
50:31.430 --> 50:33.190
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, I love that, okay.
50:34.030 --> 50:39.032
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you weren't leading BPI, what's one unexpected career path you think you would love?
50:39.432 --> 50:40.412
[SPEAKER_00]: An environmental lawyer.
50:40.432 --> 50:41.813
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.
50:42.153 --> 50:43.753
[SPEAKER_01]: So still in the same industry, I love it.
50:43.773 --> 50:44.793
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
50:44.933 --> 50:49.155
[SPEAKER_01]: If you get interviewed anyone like during your bio cycle days, who would it be?
50:49.175 --> 50:50.395
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Cory Booker.
50:50.824 --> 50:51.104
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
50:51.385 --> 50:52.266
[SPEAKER_00]: New Jersey Senator.
50:52.286 --> 50:52.746
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
50:53.327 --> 50:53.707
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
50:54.007 --> 50:54.528
[SPEAKER_01]: I love him.
50:54.608 --> 50:57.591
[SPEAKER_01]: So that would definitely be a good one in some of the efforts he's leading.
50:58.051 --> 50:58.452
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
50:58.492 --> 51:00.754
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're at time, but we'll ask two more questions.
51:01.255 --> 51:05.359
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the most unusual composable item you've seen certified?
51:05.719 --> 51:11.345
[SPEAKER_00]: We have not certified this one ourselves to be clear, but composable bed sheets used at a college orientation.
51:11.785 --> 51:12.346
[SPEAKER_01]: interesting.
51:12.666 --> 51:20.094
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's definitely interesting when I would love that could be a whole segment on itself, you know, around the certification in how they make that claim.
51:20.234 --> 51:20.535
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
51:20.855 --> 51:28.663
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in seven seconds, tell us one reason why composting and packaging should be at the center of climate strategy.
51:29.004 --> 51:33.028
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the tool to unlock composting as a nature based climate solution.
51:33.707 --> 51:36.530
[SPEAKER_00]: and solve issues related to food contact packaging.
51:37.070 --> 51:38.191
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, I love that.
51:38.952 --> 51:41.274
[SPEAKER_01]: And okay, so I'm gonna ask you, this is a bonus one.
51:41.394 --> 51:43.375
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm based upon your favorite author.
51:43.836 --> 51:49.060
[SPEAKER_01]: So window berry, mentioning one of his books, and I want you to name the book this possibly came from.
51:49.701 --> 51:54.125
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he said agriculture is the foundation of America's greater culture.
51:54.145 --> 51:55.706
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what book that came from?
51:55.726 --> 51:57.247
[SPEAKER_00]: The unsettling of America.
51:57.548 --> 51:58.108
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is.
51:58.128 --> 51:58.428
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
51:59.634 --> 52:01.154
[SPEAKER_00]: Now that's one of my favorite of his books.
52:01.235 --> 52:02.695
[SPEAKER_00]: So I got lucky.
52:02.995 --> 52:06.916
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that was actually fitting for us to round out for today's conversations.
52:07.016 --> 52:09.117
[SPEAKER_01]: So Rhodes, thank you so much for sharing.
52:09.517 --> 52:16.999
[SPEAKER_01]: Let everyone know how they can get in contact with you, how to get registered for the BPI summit, and also how to learn more about BPI as well.
52:17.299 --> 52:23.041
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so most of that information is on our website, uh, BPIworld.org or on our LinkedIn page.
52:23.201 --> 52:25.282
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the best way to keep up to date with us.
52:25.762 --> 52:26.283
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
52:26.783 --> 52:32.869
[SPEAKER_01]: And ladies and gentlemen, all the information that we talked about during today's episode is down in the show notes for you all.
52:33.329 --> 52:51.926
[SPEAKER_01]: So you learned from Rosie Epson, who is the Executive Director at BPI, talk about the biodegradable versus composting industry, what policy and systems we need for traceability and trackability, as well as how to make sure you're intentional about what you're creating to be part of your value chain.
52:52.446 --> 52:55.229
[SPEAKER_01]: So, thank you all so much for tuning in to today's episode.
52:55.330 --> 53:02.057
[SPEAKER_01]: Make sure you do follow like and subscribe to all of our platforms and get engaged with our featured powerhouse for today, Rose Yepsen.
53:02.457 --> 53:05.621
[SPEAKER_01]: So, thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you on the next segment.
