I'm Coming Out - How, When, and To Whom Should You Tell People You're Poly

Welcome to the Poly Pathways podcast, helping you create paths for practical polyamory. Your hosts are Kat and Doc. We're glad you're here. Welcome to the latest episode of Poly Pathways podcast. Thanks to a listener question, we're diving into a hard topic today. one of the most emotionally charged questions in polyamory and non-monogamy and even queer life is kind of when do you know when it's time to tell people, who do you tell, who do you trust with that information, and how do you come out? Of course, when I name this episode, I'm coming out, I immediately thought of the Levi's commercial from the early 2000s with the singing belly buttons, which I will not sing for you now, but now you have that in your head to think about as well. So I think what makes this such a fraught topic is for anyone, who has felt the fear of rejection from family, from friends, from coworkers and communities, it really is worth thinking about and diving deep into kind of the mental and emotional load of being different, being different in any way. And what comes along with that when you're walking the path of who you're going to disclose that information to, the power of selective truth-telling, and really how to navigate authentically with yourself without sacrificing your safety and your sanity. So we're going to dive into all of that today and hopefully walk you through some strategies and some things to think about before you decide to come out to your network as a whole. You're looking for a little extra support in managing your time and responsibilities. Magic AI has got you covered. Their virtual assistants can handle scheduling, planning, and more. Perfect for busy polycules that have no time left in their calendars for managing everybody's time. I personally loved my experience with my matched assistant so much and really feel like she's. She's changed my life for the better. Check them out today using our referral link in the showknocks and get $2,000 with this magic for free. This is a really interesting and important question because as we arrived with this polyamorous decision in our life or awareness rather, realization probably more accurately in our life, it becomes a tug of war with between what is my truth, what's my authentic life, how. How am I supposed to be my happiest, truest self right now? And what is the pressure of being out to people who don't fully understand that? And I think, as we've talked about in other episodes of dealing with mononormative thought processes and myths and dealing with myths around polyamory and difficulties understanding polyamory, it does create some tension. And I can't speak to someone who's coming out as queer to their family or friends or community because that's not been my experience. I've only had the experience of coming out as polyamorous. Kink, I think, to some degree, is a little bit lesser because there is a little bit of that fetishization around kink that people can kind of get to. But being polyamorous and coming out to people as polyamorous was a really hard thing because I wasn't sure how to layer that on. Who do I tell and when? To what degree do I detail that? And I definitely struggled with my thinking around, am I doing something wrong? Is coming out wrong? Is telling these people wrong? Is it any of their business? Does it really matter? How do I need to share this with my community? Because being able to live my authentic polyamorous life out loud does feel really, really freeing for me. And there's always this little bit of pain of guilt or pain of fear to say, Oh, yes, me and my other partner or me and my partners, or yes, you've met this partner, but not this other partner, can be a little bit scary to anticipate what people might be able to say, though I've found people to be pretty open and pretty willing to hear my story. Yeah, I think that's a really valid point that even if you aren't doing anything wrong, it can still feel wrong because we all internalize that mononormativity, right? And sometimes it might feel like you're burdening someone with that knowledge, right? because then they're part of something that maybe they don't perceive as correct or right, right? So you're now making them part of this something that they may or may not agree with, and they're going to feel some type of pressure around that. I have had the experience of coming out multiple times in my life through many different lenses. My first coming out was coming out of what they called the broom closet when I decided that I was pagan, right? And then having to tell my extremely Catholic family that, hey guys, I think there's a, there's some more, There's more to the story here, right? And that was extremely jarring because it was in conflict with the identity that I held before that. I am also queer. So coming out as that kind of person, my family still is not aware of that fact, right? That's not something I've come out to them with because my mom has said some things to me in the past where it pretty much underscored that they would not be accepting of that from me. I've come out to certain friends about my involvement in the kink community. I've had lots of different ways to kind of get used to the whole coming out process and get comfortable with the idea that some people will be happy and some people will not. But it's interesting about when you're thinking about coming out, how there's a lot of internalized fears and a lot of supposed risks that you tell yourself, but then there's real risk, right? There's risks to your safety. And I want to point out that it's really hard to determine what's imagined and what's possible. So I also have anxiety. I'm also neurodivisent. So, right, sometimes my anxiety takes over and I create imagined scenarios where the worst case scenario is going to happen, right? You over-imagined that people are going to blow up your life and blow up your community and do all of that stuff. So it's important to take a step back and kind of go, what's a met, what is you over-inflating your imagination and what's actually possible? And the fear of being judged, of being fired, of being tokenized, of being misunderstood, all those feelings are real. Those are valid feelings, right? You have that self-pane and that self-internalization of, are you an emotional burden to other people? You know, is your self-worth worth this? Are you just burnt out from hiding? Do you feel like exhausted from having to hide your true self all the time? And that does spill over into your mental health, just like Doc said. You're hypervigilant. Do they know? Are they going to find out? You might have some loneliness that you don't have anyone in your community that you can talk to about your multiple partners because of the biornormativity. And of course, you have that anxiety. Like, am I being authentic? Should I tell people so that they can know the real me? And you might find some of that fear overlaps itself into not showing up fully for people because you're worried they're going to find out. So even if you choose not to come out or come out, either way it could potentially impact your relationship, which is why I think there might be a way to incrementally come out that is a little more palatable for people who are not familiar with this whole coming out process. I love the idea of incremental coming out. I don't think that it's everybody's business all at one time. And I think that it's also easier on your psyche. If you just eke this out to people that are close to you and then further and further and further away from you, I also think that there's an aspect of this incremental coming out, that coming out to strangers and people that you don't have a lot of personal investment with is probably a lot easier for you to handle. The trouble that I have is that as you're coming out, just as we've talked about, there's this internal dialogue of anxiety, of worry, of fear, what are they thinking, what's going on? are they going to start to judge me? Is there going to be a fight? Are they going to reject me? And I think you probably know the people in your life who have rejected anything outside of the norm. And those are probably the people going to put last in your incremental list. If you've got friends that have been homophobic in the past or they've rejected even abnormal things such as we're not going to, we're not going to do family Christmas this year. Like, if you've got friends that are that conservative and that close-minded, then those are the people you want to leave last. But this idea of coming out incrementally can also help you to not only feel more comfort, but also shape your story as you go. There'll be questions from the people who are closest to you. What does that mean? What does polyamory look like? How does that affect me? Are you interested in me? As Kat and I both talked about when we came out as polyamory? polyamorous that people became hyper aware or hyper interested in us because now we're quote unquote available even though we weren't. And because polyamory isn't just an open call, it's just that we have multiple loving relationships. But those are the questions you'll anticipate. And that will help you to share and shape your story better each and every time. And so what's important to really think about is even if you're really, even if you're as regimented, maybe as Kat and I, maybe sit down and make up a list. Who are the phase one people? I'm going to tell these people that are polyamorous, who are the phase two people. In my life, I did this kind of in a very hyper-normalization way, where I just started to tell people very casually and very carefully, hey, I'm polyamorous, this is my partner, here is my other partner, and even, or I'm dating. or I have a date and they're saying, oh, it's nice to you have a date night. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have a date night, but my partner is also going on a date. And I just kind of slide it sly into conversation, which helps them, which helps people who are close to me kind of, it was a kind of a bit of a, it was a bit of an easier run for them to be able to understand an easier time for them to be able to understand. Yeah, I definitely love that, the sliding in a comment here and there to see how people respond. I wanted to call out two specific instances of when I was starting to come out that I think are really important. One was that sliding comment, right? So I actually went to a local bakery to order a cake for my birthday. And I casually slid into that conversation and said, oh, one of my partners is going to pick me up or going to pick it up, right? And it was interesting because I saw the woman clock it. So her eyes just kind of did this like, oh, kind of movement. And then later she actually reached out to me via text message and was like, hey, I noticed you said, partners, are you by any chance polyamorous? And I said, yes, I am. It's funny. Most people don't pick up on that. And she goes, oh, I actually, would you want going out for coffee with me sometime? I have some questions. My partner and I are exploring polyamory. And I don't really know anybody who's active, you know, in that type of life or in that dynamic. And it turned into an actual. friendship that we would have conversations like this regularly. The other instance I want to point out is I had an opportunity, I think it was two months into dating my boyfriend. So it was very new. And it was my first full-on polyamorous relationship where I had two partners at the same time. And I started identifying. I had an opportunity to go study for a month in another country. And these were people I did not know. They were all strangers to me. And I decided to show up in that space as fully and polyamorous. And so when I was introducing myself at circle time and doing all this other stuff, I was introducing myself and my partners. And it was the first opportunity I had to do kind of experiment on what it would be like if I just showed up this way in my spaces. And the response was incredible. Obviously, this was a unique group of people because of what I was there for. So we were very like-minded and what we were studying. But it was really eye-opening to me about how it was received. And some people have questions and some people didn't. Some people just rolled with the punches. For me, I think there is a really big difference going back to Doc's point of strangers versus not strangers, right? So there is definitely a kind of I don't care attitude with strangers where you don't really care what they think about you, right? I can get up and give a speech to 10,000 people I've never met before and it doesn't faze me because at the end of the day, I don't care what they think. They're strangers, right? And you want to be received well, but you know, you really don't care. versus the people that you know well, that you're invested in them, right? Doc said that emotional investment in that relationship. It matters more, right? Those are the people you want to take care with. And then you have this weird group that I'm going to talk about a little later, like your community. So people you kind of know, but kind of don't know. I think that's really important to have that distinction. Sometimes maybe strangers are the best place to kind of drip out some of that information and start that incremental coming out. It's also important to know that you're going to have to come out to the same people, multiple times, even if you mention that you're polyamorous, you may have to come out to them again in different ways. You might have to describe your polysituation. You might have to talk about the changes in your polys situation and what's going on or just deal with the, wouldn't it just be easier if there was one person? Well, it shouldn't be less interesting and less involved, but it might not be easier per se. But this sense of incremental is really very meta. both in the approach that you take, but also in the amount of information that you share and at different times, and then also just the level of interest of the other person, because we don't want to be overly disclosing. And that's what we're going to talk about in our next section, kind of who deserves the truth and what that truth might look like. When you were talking, I just thought about bringing a different person to a barbecue every weekend and having to continually be like, this is Joey and this is Jimmy and this is. is jari. Like, this is small. So I think that's very sure that even... I mean, my sleut. Yeah, I'm in my salute era. Yeah, right? Let's... Even if you come out once, you're going to have to come out every time because if you're showing up socially with these people, right? They're part of your space. And that's going to come up. In our next section, let's talk about who deserves the truth, right? So there is a difference between privacy and secrecy. You'll talk about, I actually hear this a lot in the media, right, when people are like, oh, why can't gay people just keep their love and affection private, right? It's a private thing. We don't have to hear about it. But there's also secrecy, right? So secrecy is intentionally keeping a secret from someone because you don't want to hurt them, you want to protect them, or you want to keep yourself safe. Privacy is me coming out to someone and saying, yeah, I'm polyamorous. And then immediately jumping into, well, do you guys all do it together? So I have two men as my primary partners, right? I have two primary partners, and they're both men. And the first question everybody wants to ask me is, you know, do you guys all get it on together? And they ask really personal questions. And I'm like, you know, I'm not really comfortable talking about that because that's my privacy limit, right? So I'm not secretive about my polyamory, but how I practice it can fall under the range of privacy, right? I love the idea of earned. So not everyone deserves access to your full truth, right? They have to earn that intimacy. So if a random stranger is, you know, catching on that you're polyamorous and they have all these really probing questions or are getting really deep with you, you don't own them that intimacy, right? You don't owe them those answers. You don't owe them that full truth. You can keep it letting just say, yeah, polyamorous, I have a couple partners. And we've been together a while and that's all of that. But I think that's really important to kind of make that distinction of who do we actually owe intimacy to? And is it a violation of how we think about our own privacy that we have a right to? The other part that I want to bring out about who deserves your truth is safety versus transparency, right? You really have to think about when you need to protect yourself. So safety is always first, right? If you are at risk of losing your livelihood, your housing situation, people that you depend on for support your ecosystem, you have to keep yourself safe. And as much as you want to be open and transparent and authentic, you have to know when to protect yourself. So what can you tell people to keep them informed and to keep you honest about yourself and what do you want to share versus what is going to cost you personal safety, right? There are places that it is not safe to be polyamorous. places that it's not safe to be queer. And you have to be aware of those things when you're coming out that if you work at a very conservative place of business, and I can say this because I used to work at one of these places, you know, they all were passing out the Trump cake when he was first elected and very, you know, just not a safe space for queer individuals. And it was talked about in my circle of people that I trusted that this was not a safe place to be different. It was in a safe place to come out. and it would impact people's jobs. And it had impacted people's jobs at that company. So be aware of those things when you're making your game plan for coming out. And do take some time to make that game plan with yourself, right? Talk to yourself about what you're comfortable saying, what you're not comfortable saying, what your partners are comfortable with you saying, because they're part of this too, right? By exposing yourself, you are also exposing your partners, right? So they're known in the community and they're, you know, very abstain. I know there's a few polyamorous content creators who have a partner whose identity is always, you know, covered up or, you know, they're blurred out of pictures and things like that. Because you have to take your partner's safety into account as well, right? You have to take their wishes into account. And if they don't want to be exposed as an extension of you, you got to have that conversation with them. So make that game plan. What would you say if someone said, you know, oh, that's not right? Kind of have that talk with yourself and your partners on how you're going to. to stage that together. And I have friends in my circle who are opening their relationship up and have very important and visible jobs where being in an open relationship or being polyamorous and openly so could be seen as a potential liability for their very conservative job and their very conservative industry. And so having to protect some of that truth for them is, is important. The other thing is that not only who deserves the truth, you don't owe anybody the truth. You're the truth and access to your life should you not want to. If you're happily being polyamorous because you're in a relationship, you've met somebody that was pretty cool and you want to have them as a partner, then that's great. You don't have to have, you don't have to be out there, you know, bringing your partners to everything and living that life, if you want to just be a private individual, then you can. And so in those situations where I know that these people are opening their relationship because they're close friends, I'm poly, they can talk to me, but they're not telling maybe their friends or their coworkers or even their relatives. This is actually bringing to mind the Netflix show, so you want a sex room or whatever it was, where they featured, a pollicle and they actually didn't go into it very deeply in the episode, but there were members of the pollucal that were mentioned kind of haphazardly that were not featured in the episode because they did not want to be in the public eye for whatever reason, right? You don't have to explain your reasoning to not want that to be the case, but I found it interesting that there were members of that pollicle that were not present, that are full members of that polycule that just said no, that just said no, no, thank you. So you do have to respect your partner's wishes in this and not expose them if they are not ready to be exposed, right? Especially as an extension of you. Yeah. So don't expose, yeah, don't unnecessarily expose your partners if you haven't had that conversation about it. But it is exactly spot on. You don't owe anybody an explanation. You don't owe anybody a disclaimer. I personally like to think of my polyamory as something normal, as something that doesn't be explaining. So I tend to operate in my life as if it completely normal and within mononormative norms. And so when people are like, oh, that's weird, that's different. I'm like, is it? And especially as an extension to my children, which I think, you know, my children are becoming an age where they're starting to ask more questions and be more aware. But for them, this is how their life has always been. They haven't known differently. So they think it's normal, right? People don't often realize, I would say children, especially, Children don't often realize that things are abnormal until you point out that they're abnormal or they start to become socially aware of differences and things like that. So I really like to operate under the terms of this is my normal. This is my average. This is my regular. And it's not any different. And I'm actually, I tend to be kind of surprised when people don't share that view when I do come out to them. I'm like, oh, this is normal. especially younger children, I think they're more able to be malleable and flexible to the new normal. But you're right. I think that positioning things as this is just normal. Friends, it's not that complicated, even though there are times where the mono people in my life are like, brother, you got to settle down. Yeah. I mean, maybe that's delusion on my part, but I do. I think like this is my normal life. And I get that it's not normal for other people, but it's normal for me. So I don't think of it as something weird anymore because I've been doing it. Obviously, I've been in the relationships for so long that for me is just standard operating procedure. So when people are confused, I'm like, oh, that's right. You don't know. I'm polyamorous. I have two partners. And I go, I have to back up a step for them sometimes because of the way I talk about it. And it's a reminder to me that, okay, this isn't so normal. So in our next section, we're going to talk a little bit about the game plan. What's the plan for coming out? We'll talk a little bit. We've already talked a little bit about what we've done, but we'll talk about that more in depth in the next section. Hey, there, amazing human. Just a quick pause to say thank you for tuning in to the Poly Pathways podcast. Whether you're here for your first episode or you've been along this polyamorous journey from the start, we see you. We appreciate you. And we're so glad you're here. If you're loving this conversation, we've got a little request. Don't keep all this polyamory goodness to yourself. Hit that subscribe button or follow button wherever you're listening right now so that you don't miss an episode. And then share this podcast with a friend. Whether it's the deep dives, practical tips, or little doses of relationship realness, there's plenty more to come. And we don't want you to miss a thing. And hey, let's keep this conversation going. Follow us on social media at Poly Pathways podcast wherever you like to social. That's where the magic happens between episodes. Updates, behind the scene moments, and yes, the occasional meme. Because let's face it, Polyamory is definitely meme worthy. Your support through subscribing, following, and sharing is the best way to make it possible for us to keep creating content for this incredible community. So thank you. You're the reason this podcast exists. All right, let's get back to the episode. We talked about this incremental coming out process, this kind of slipping this into your regular life so that you can start to become more authentic and more truthful to who you are. And I think your mileage may vary here. There's going to be a lot of opinions about how you can do this. There's going to be the radical normalizers who are like, just get it tattooed on your head and wear a shirt and get a banner and hire a skywriter. And I think that that's great. It's whatever makes you the most comfortable. Well, I think it's also important to take in where my bias is in this so that you have an understanding of why I chose the game plan that I came up with. So I am later in my life, so I am in my 50s. I have lived a very mononormative life for a very long time and have a lot of investment in friends and connections in the monogamous world. coming out as polyamress, therefore kind of kind of had to fit into this safe incremental procedure. I'm also very well educated. I have a very good job. I work in a professional setting. I have friends that are that are professionals. And I want to be able to maintain some security and safety in those environments because that is what fuels my life. I also have a family. So I have a co-parent. I have two children. So just take in mind that this is my situation So that when you think about what I'm saying In terms of what's your game plan You have an understanding of where I'm coming from From my perspective I think the first really bit is to decide Who needs to know and when Just like we talked about in the last section Not everybody's entitled to your life Not everybody's entitled to your relationship style They probably were aware of it When you were monogamous, so what? That's the default. I don't walk around going That person's poly, that person's poly, that person's monogamous, that person's poly. That's not how we go through the world. Even as poly people, we're like, they're probably monogamous. Although, maybe we shouldn't, but we do, nonetheless, because of the training that we're in. So you really do need to kind of decide who, not only who gets to know, but who needs to know. Does it really matter? Does it really make an impact on your connection or relationship with that person if they knew that you were polyamorous? Like, if it's your paper delivery person, do you need to be out there at three o'clock in the morning shouting on polyamorous? No, we don't. So maybe you need to decide not only like who needs to know, or who wants to know, but who needs to know. Doc, I'm going to pick on you because I don't think any of us have paper delivery boys anymore. Yeah, no. So again, showing showing my privilege. I don't have paper delivery service either, but for whatever reason in my head, I just remember the paper being thrown in the driveway by some random person at like four in the morning. But that wasn't the original because I had friends that were paper boys. There you go. Because, again, I'm older than, I'm older than probably a lot of folks think I might be. But come on to your friends. How did I come out to my friends? That's a really great question. And I started coming out to my friends through the discussion. of mentioning my partners. And this is my partner. And I'm also seeing this other person. And that helped them at least get curious enough to go, huh, what does that mean? Because part of it is like where the time where the use of the word partner is more inclusive, but also, oh, are they, is it just, he's just dating this person? or it gives them a kind of a soft opening and it gets them curious and it allows them to ask questions like, oh, I thought so-and-so was your partner or, oh, you have, did this situation change? Do you have multiple partners? And those questions help me kind of navigate their interest because I think for me, I don't want to overshare what's going on in my personal life with people. So I am a hyper-normalizer. I'm not going to hide what's going on, but they might not really, they might not need to know. Like they might be like, okay, cool. You got two partners. That's it for me. Thank you. That's all the information that I need to know. And when you tell people or when you tell me, could you tell me who you're talking about? And that would be, that's great. I think there's some of that. Some of it was me coming out around the dissolution of the relationship and talking about my change and my life order. Like so, yeah, you know, this relationship ended. I really reflected on a lot of things that were going on that I've been polyamorous all along. And that, I think for a lot of my very close friends, people who know me very well, seem to fit. They were kind of like, oh, yeah, that's you. Yep, yep, yep, yep. That makes total sense to me. And that was very comforting because they were seeing something that they didn't know how to manage or navigate in my life because we're monogamous. So how do we navigate this polyamorous experience? And then the other part of it is just reassuring them. That it has nothing to do with them. They didn't make me poly. I'm not interested in them. It is in a romantic, relational way or a sexual way. That's not anything that interests me. And so it, giving them the benefit of saying, I'm polyamorous, it doesn't really impact you, right? It is good. And then I also that I live away from my close friends group, it has an impact too. They're not going to see me at parties, probably. Although maybe they will. Maybe I'll surprise them. Yeah, I think that's kind of what I think about when I think about the friend conversation is who's going to notice the shift, right? So if you've been dating monogamously for a long time or you're married or something like that and all of a sudden you start showing up in places or maybe going out with this other person or posting about it on social media, like who's going to actually notice that something's out there and ask you questions? And does it pay to be proactive in those situations and kind of address it before they bring it up? I guess it depends on how close you are with that person. There's one friendship coming out story that lives in my brain as really, really funny. I had a friend of mine who we were really close for a couple of years. We're not currently close, but we're still friendly. Like, it's just kind of that fade in, fade out that sometimes happens in life. But we were really close at the time when I started dating my boyfriend. And I had talked about him before I started dating him. And if you're a woman, you know, you do this sometimes. Sometimes you talk about guys and you're like, oh, yeah, he's so cute like la la la la la la and we were we were talking about guys you know somewhat reasonably um and we were both married right so i think in her mind it was always something casual like this is just something girl it's just girl talk right we're just chatting about these guys um but then i actually started dating this person and she's like wait i don't understand and i went from wait you're wait, you're actually dating this person? And it was such a mental shift for her to be like, this is just fun talk to, oh my God, you're having a, you're having the relationship, but you already have a relationship. And there was this funny joke about being like, she's like, is this like sister wives, but it's Mr. What? And we jokingly were trying to come up with a term for what is the male version of mistress. And we're like, oh, there isn't one. So she started calling him my mister, which was just hilarious. Isn't it Gigolo? No, I think that's a status. I think that's not a status. I think that's a job. I think that's a job. Yeah, I'm really like, is it mister? Is it maestress? Is it a mistress? This is my maestress. Oh, goodness. I gotta be honest, I'm a little bit into that idea of being called someone's a maestress right now in this moment. Well, then I'm like, is it mastered? I'm like, no, that's something different, guys. We did not. come to a good term because I think Paramore also came up to, like, there was a bunch of, it's a bunch of words, but there was no true male equivalent to a mister. It was just like, you're a fair. Google was no help. But that was an interesting coming out story to my friend was just watching her perspective shift on how people have relationships because she did not know any ethically non-monogamous people of any variety. And she was, she was curious, and then she was cautious, and then she was curious, and then she was cautious. And I think she kind of really ebbed and flowed with it because of her other beliefs and her other upbringings and her other, even cultural implications that she had. She just, it was just very interesting to watch her process this over time. And I appreciated her being the outspoken person that she was because she processed out loud. And like she was very outspoken about it. And she'll blame it on being Latina. But she was just very upfront about how she was feeling about stuff. And it was a great learning experience from a friend coming out perspective. A big part of that, just as you described, is holding space for your friends to be able to ask those questions. And I really like the idea of coming out to friends first because friends are the people that you've chosen. They're your chosen family. They've chosen you. You've chosen them. And for the most part, you know who they are and what their values are. But allowing yourself to hold space, hey, like, I want to let you know, I'm polyamorous or these are my partners or however you've slipped that in. But also holding space like, hey, I'm not going to inundate you with a lot of poly things. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have over time. And I've had questions. I've had friends who were like, let's set up time and let's, I want to dig into this. I want to know all about poly Amory. And I've had friends who are like, okay, cool. And like, that's the end of that. The other thing about dealing with friends is that that's that level of letting people know and coming out to a friend. That's not the end of that conversation. You tell friend one, friend one is on the phone with friend four and five almost right away. Hey, I just got a chance to talk with Doc. And did you know that he was polyamorous? Yeah. So that can also mitigate some of the tension around making a phone call or seeing your friend in person and having to have that anxious type conversation. So being able to say, hey, this is who I am, I'm happy to answer questions for you. and that's it. I'm glad you brought that up, Doc, because I completely forgotten that the chain reaction scenario can happen. And it will for family too. Yeah, and let's step outside our friend group now. So we talked about our chosen family, but what about our actual family? Like the people we share blood with, the people we've shared a life with, the people we don't always get to choose, right? I think it goes back to that question of deciding who needs to know, who's going to notice the shift, are you going to try to show up to family gatherings, to barbecues, to birthday parties, to holidays with that person, are they part of your network? And who doesn't need to know, right? I know plenty of polyamorous people that never come out to their parents. They never come out to their cousins, their family, whatever. And then I know ones like me that actively are trying to mesh and include their family with the larger family. I think this has a lot to do with kids sometimes. So the things you need to think about is the family members that you come out to are going to experience a lot more emotions, possibly more sharply, than the rest of your friends, group, especially parents. Parents have a set idea in their mind, and I'm a parent, I can say this too. You want your kids to live their best life. You want them to be happy. You want them to be healthy. You want them to be safe, assuming you're any type of decent parent, right? So they might experience some grief over, you know, you building relationships that are outside the norm, right? Not only does it potentially negatively impact them if they have a strong community or if they're churchy people, I'll use my parents as an example. They're churchy people, and God forbid, the church, find out that you're stepping outside your marriage. But they might have that picture in their head, and they're going to experience some kind of grief about, you know, you doing something outside the norm because they think that's going to make your life more difficult, right? So they might feel some type of way about your relationships that really is less to do with the relationships and more to do with the internal picture that they have of you. Like, they might be disappointed. They might be completely unsupportive. They might say, no, this is completely wrong and it's out in line with my values and how dare you, blah, blah, blah. There's all those potential reactions. But the one reaction I want to call out that I unexpectedly ran into is the myth of unconditional love. A lot of people, especially in generations, you know, I would say people in their 60s, 70s, 80s even, And even in their 50s to some extent, they had a very set idea of what love is supposed to be, that whole fairy tale, unconditional love. And I actually know quite a few people in their 70s and 80s that think you're going to get a trophy on your deathbed for being married the longest. Like they hold up their anniversaries as like little trophies of like winning at life or winning at love, right? And they are very threatened by the idea that you can find love in a different. structure, right? These are the people that stay bitterly married, even though they should probably have gotten divorced, right? And I've actually run into a few of these in my family. Like, they're so mad about me being polyamorous simply because they're in an unhappy marriage and they don't feel empowered to leave that. So just be really empathetic to the people you're coming out to in your family because they got a whole bunch of baggage that you may or may not know about. And they're going to see things in a completely different light. The other part is the how and the wet. I want to caution coming out too early because you are at risk of being seen as unsurious. So early in my relationship, I didn't really tell anybody I was dating because I didn't know how it was going to go. I didn't know how it was going to be received. And I didn't want people to think that I was just stepping out, right? For me, it was serious. Not that there's anything wrong with sleeping around and doing your life, like do your life however you're going to do it. But for me, I didn't want to be seen. as like, this is just me having fun and having a good time. Like, for me, it was meaningful. I was seeking this relationship with intention, right? So I didn't want to be seen as unsurious being just, you know, a bad wife or whatever it may be, right? That's my stuff. But also, on the flip side of that, there might be a place where it's too late, right? And you'll get people that are just furious because they're like, why didn't you tell us? And I don't really think there's a right answer there about the when and the how. I think it's, it has to be something that you decide for yourself. So are you going to come out as ambiguously unattached to someone? So just saying, I'm polyamorous and claiming it as an identity similar to a way you might acquire identity, or are you going to wait until you have, you know, a partner that you're saying, I am polyamorous and here is my other partner. Those are both paths you can take and the other ones right or wrong, right? You've got to decide what works for you and what makes sense. I'm curious, Doc, did you have a unique coming out kind of with your family. I know my family's been kind of a fraught. I don't need to go into details, but I've had some fraught coming out with my family. I'm wondering if you experienced kind of a smoother transition. Yeah, I did and I didn't. So for my folks, I think it was a lot easier for them to see who I was and see, oh, that makes sense to me. But also my folks are are considerably older. And so they were very kind of just like, okay, thanks. You know, who are these people? You know, I think my dad was more interested in, you know, who are these people? What is their background? You know, tell me a little bit more about them because I don't know them and I want to get to know the people in your life. I think it's important. He's always expressed more interest in my relational life than my mom did. And so he always had a lot more questions. But he was very, I, and weirdly, I was way more comfortable letting my mom know about my polyamry situation, even though I knew she was probably going to be the one to hold a little bit more personal judgment, again, not against me, personal judgment of me. But that was pretty easy. The rest of my family, a little bit, a little bit more different. So, you know, Kat and I both have kids, and I think you've normalized polyamory with your, with your kids. I certainly have done that. My kids are older than yours, and so for my oldest one, it was a little bit more of a challenge. I think that she has some personal values and belief structures that prevent her from seeing this in its purest form. My youngest, on the other hand, just curious. He's like, yeah, okay, cool. Like, he gets curious from time to time and ask questions, but he's just like, this is just normal. you know, here's dad. And he, but I also, I also insulate them from, I insulate my children from my polyamory. Like that's getting to know my kids is a very special, very important in measurement that has to be very carefully done. But going beyond that, honestly, beyond my immediate family, it's really none of their business. I don't, I'm old enough that I don't have grandparents. I don't know, though I think my grandparents probably wouldn't have cared. And, you know, aunts and uncles and, and, you know, I've told my uncle that I'm polyamorous and he kind of met it with the same kind of like, all right, like, cool. Like, he's a very open-minded guy. He was probably the one I was most wanting to tell. But I don't, once it gets beyond the immediate family, it really just has to come up in conversation for it to be part of the part of what I would disclose to them. But my immediate family is really supportive, and that's nice to have. Yeah, that is nice to have. I do not have that. And I expected it out of my parents, actually. So growing up, I had an uncle, in air quotes, very close male friend of the family who had two partners, right? And I never really thought about it that way. When he passed away, they both gave eulogies at his funeral. And one was his wife and one was his girlfriend, which it was apparently very scandalous, but it was not hidden, right? Like we all knew that they were involved and they were around the house and they used to hang out together, you know, in the hot tub and all this. stuff. So I thought my parents would be more accepting than they were, but they were very adamant for a while. We were kind of excommunicated from family gatherings and things like that. And then a few years later, we came out to my husband's family, and that was just a disaster. And it continues to be a very, I would say a very challenging dynamic because we've had instances where we've planned family parties and invited everybody and, you know, my daughter's birthday, her last birthday was a great example of this. We planned a huge party and, you know, 40 people RSVPed. And then it got out that, you know, my partner was going to be there. He was actually making on the food. And they turned around and not only did they not on RCP, they just didn't show up. So no one showed up for my daughter's birthday because, you know, my other partner was there, which was really devastating, I think, for her because she was open enough to realize what had happened. And she wasn't mad at us, thankfully, because we showed up for her. She was mad at the people that didn't show up. So I'm very aware of how it impacts the family dynamics. But for me, I would say this is the bucket of people that I struggle with the most, right? Beyond friends, family is really a challenging point for me. Less so than my career. My career has actually done pretty good. Yeah. And I think that's because we want our family's approval for things, regardless of our relationship with our family. whether it's tenuous or we're wonderful, we want their approval for the things that we are, because those are the people who've seen us and are sometimes in our most vulnerable moments we're really hoping for. What I think I hear a lot in both the stories around friends and holding space for them to ask questions about what they want and family and their acceptance and lack of acceptance is that it is their choice to respond the way that they want to, and it has nothing to do with your telling them the truth of yourself. And this is something my therapist tells me all of the time. Like, when you tell somebody this, it is their choice, whether they want to accept it, whether they want to accept the apology, whether they want to deal with repair, whether they want to accept your story. And that is a challenging but freeing mindset to have as you go through this coming out as poly process is that there are going to be people who are going to react positively and negatively and it is their choice. but it doesn't impact who you are as a polyamorous individual. The other area really is around work and what does work really need to know anyway? The truth of the matter is, if your partners are your beneficiaries for your life insurance or your emergency contacts, they don't need to know. And most of the time, you're not talking to anybody in HR anyway. You're just filling out a form for HR that they never see until you keel over at work and they're like, oh, well, which one of these people should be? we call. We'll just call the first one on the list. That's probably the, so that, like, to some degree work is a lot easier because these might not, you, who cares? You're nine to five, 501, these people are dead to you. And so, and then you don't, you don't need to know. But we're, to kind of make a careful decision about whether it come up. And Kat did a great episode about being poly at work. And we've gotten some interesting comments about not, not being sure if I should be out as poly, but I am. And I am openly polyamorous at work. I talk about my partner. If my partner's at work and mention it as a as just a normal course of conversation, I tend to mention folks by name because it helps to sort out who it is what I'm talking about. My other, other girlfriend? My other, other, right? Yeah, right, yeah. But just be who I am because I, in my position, I know my colleagues. I know their families. We're all work from home employees, so we tend to get to know a little bit more about your home life through that experience. And when your kids pop on camera or somebody's at your house or whatever it might be. And so making that decision to be open at work is really a difficult decision to make. And I think that it really depends on, again, what your working environment is. but from an HR, legal, financially supportive, beneficiary type status, you're filling out paperwork for human resources. And we're bound by laws. I can't have multiple partners listed as spouses under my insurance plan. But I can't have them as beneficiaries to my life insurance. I can have them as emergency contacts. I can have them as people who show up to the company party with me or whatever that might be. But at least from a polycule insulation, a polycule security perspective, you can have them on your paperwork and in your life from that perspective because it's really nobody's business and nobody's checking anyway, to be honest with you. It's really when you start talking about it that's important. And you really need to look at the policies of that company, assess where things are. I think this is an area where I would be more slow to assess where people are because, Yeah, like my boss is cool as hell about me being polyamorous and is even said, that would have really made things a little easier for me in my life. But that might be their perspective, but their boss's boss or if they mention it to somebody else, oh yeah, Doc's partners are letting us know what's going on, that might throw people off a little bit. And that's where you really have to kind of be a little bit more careful. and you can assess that landscape through, is there an affiliate group? Is there an ERG around being poly or in the LGBTQIA plus space? What are their inclusive values? And are those values lived or stated? Is this one of these bullshit big retail DEI initiatives that then they back off when it's inconvenient? Because that's not somebody you probably want to tell. That's not a safe person for you to tell. So you really have to take a look at who those are. And I think part of finding comfort there might be to find those affiliate groups and find those queer and polyfriendly people because those are your people. They will be able to say it's safe or not safe for you to come out. And then honestly, I think the conversation is just casual. I mean, that's what I did. It's like, oh, yeah, my partners are coming to this or I'm going to see my one partner this weekend and then I'm going to see my next one next weekend or something. I think that water cooler moment is where a lot of people choose to come out, right? So if you have Susie from accounting and she's gushing about getting engaged and talking about her partners, like it's normal to have other people. I know, Susan. Run. Susie. What are you doing? Susie, come on. But it's normal to have, you know, like you want to share about your life at work and your partners are an extension of that life. So that might be an opportunity for you to kind of drip that out. On the HR policy side, I will point out two things. If your company has DEI policies, that's a green flag, especially. in today's climate, if they are actually living it and not just performing it. That can be huge. But at the end of the day, you're never really going to trust HR because polyamory is not a protected class. And that is important to remember, we do not fall under the lovely little umbrella of race, creed, color, gender, da-da-da-da-da. That does not include polyamory. So if you're trying to say that you're covered because there's queer protections in there, sorry, friends, it is not included. So don't mean into the legal side and think that that's going to be covered. Also, HR's not there for you as an employee anyway. Let's be clear. They're there for the company. The other side of it is really like know your people, right? If you're spending a lot of time with these people, right? You know who's safe and who's not safe. And, you know, again, watch out for that gossip wagon, right? Are you going to set off a chain reaction because Susie can't help talking to Angie who can't stop talking to Amy? And they're all going to know in like an hour because it's going to show up on the Microsoft Teams channel. So know your people. I will say just a quick story on this is the first time I came out at work, I felt like it was a very supportive company. You know, it was really, really cool. It was, I felt very safe in the environment. It was the first company I ever worked for that I felt like, oh my God, these people are not just performing. They're actually living the EI policies. And when I told my boss, she cried. And I think I mentioned this in the career. episode like she cried because she was so happy that I trusted her with that information. In perspective, the company I went to afterward, very not supportive. I'm not entirely sure that it did not ultimately cost me my job. That's a debate for another day. But I think it had a hand in kind of my demise because it led to a narrative that I was not to be trusted in social situations because I was polyamas. Whereas one of my clients that I have, now my boss is also polyamorous. So we talk about that all the time and make plenty of jokes about it. So it can be really conditional on the environment and the people that you see all the time. And how badly do you want it, right? How badly, like, do you care about the company? Do you not care about the company? Are you emotionally invested in your job or are you just cash in a check? A lot of that can play a role in how open you want to be about it and how much it matters to you, right? Nobody's going to tell you that you have to hide from your coworkers. And no one's going to tell you you have to be open with your coworkers, right? It's whatever makes the most sense to you. Just be careful to protect yourself along the way if you're the sole breadwinner or, you know, you're the chief breadwinner and you need to be taking those things into account. At an interesting intersection point, my career and my community overlaps. We're going to talk about community and coming out to kind of those people in the gray zone of like, they're not friends, but they're not strangers, and they're kind of in your, like, in-between zone. This fits in an interesting place with me because I actually have two careers, and one of my careers is very locally community-driven. I have a career that I have to be a public fixture in my community. People see me, people know me, my face is, you know, on the face of some of these businesses, and they're very aware of who I am in my community. So when I was coming out in my community, and this is actually something I have pulled back on because of some of the things I experienced. So I started letting people know in my place of work that was also my community studying about, you know, hey, I have two partners, you might see them, they might show up. They show up at my place as a business, right? Both of them do in different ways. One has intersecting business with it, and the other is just a participant in those communities. I had to navigate some polyphobia, Like people just being genuinely concerned that if they were going to be around me, that, you know, their wives were going to all of a sudden decide that they were poly emerous or ask for a divorce or like somehow it was going to overlap and affect them. I had some very weird conversations where people did not want to be in my space anymore because of knowing this about me, right? And it didn't change anything about me. It just changed how they saw me. And that was enough for them to pull back from that community setting. Some of those settings can be hyper-religious. Like if your community is a very religious community, you can experience extreme pushback, right? Especially if you're out dating, right? So if you go out to dinner at a local haunt and you're going to run into people you know and you're not with your spouse or you're not with somebody they're used to seeing, questions are going to come up. So where you're building this community is really important and is it going to impact your family, your children, right? So if it's in your community, your kids go to school in your community, I'm assuming, it could potentially get back to that school. It could potentially impact them at school and things like that. So be aware of those things when you're in your community. Who can you tell that you trust is always what we come back to, right? Who needs to know and how visible can you be? And when is the right time to tell them, right? If they're going to run into you or they're going to run into them, them being your partners, you kind of get to let them know ahead. time because that's not something that you want to have reactively. That's not really a great place to be reactive. If you think it's going to be a danger, kind of do it proactively. And a really good time to do that is if you have any community involvement during Pride Month or Pride parades or things like that, I actually ran into some of my kids' teachers at the Pride parade. I was there with both my partners and my children and it started a great conversation, right? Because they were also in that space. It was a very open and accepting space. They were in the mindset to be accepting of things outside the status quo. And it was a great place to start that conversation with some of those people. It can be really polarizing because you don't know these people well, right? You don't know how they're going to respond. It can go either way. So just be prepared for it to swing one way or the other way and be ready to talk about it when that does happen. I think that's an important, that was an important kind of insight in that when you run into people in your, in your poly space, and it's not the norm, right? We're not seeing them at work. We're not seeing them at home. We're not seeing them out at the local bar. We see them in a more friendly poly space, like a pride parade or a poly event or a kink event or things like that. This is a piece that I often, when couples come to me and they say, oh, hey, Doc, I'm looking. looking to open a marriage, but we're really, really concerned about so-and-so's job or, you know, being, you know, what if people find out? And my response usually is if you're in your spaces, if you're in your poly spaces, or you're in your queer spaces, or you're in your kink spaces, and you happen to run into somebody you know, that's because they wanted to be there, not because they wanted to see you. And so now you have a common denominator by which you can talk about those things. So if you're coming out stories more of a people just don't need to know until they don't they need to know, then that's a perfectly valid thought process to have. Like if they're in that space, I think about a friend of mine who's on the dating apps and petrified that their family or their friends are going to find them on the apps. And I thought, why would they be on the apps? You know what? That actually makes me think of people who are worried about people finding their only fans. because it's the same thing. If you're on only fans and you're looking for that type of content, then you have to be the one to bring up, be like, hey, I saw you on Only fans. Well, what were you doing on Only fans, my friend? Right. Right. But being mindful, though, like societally, there is this, well, yeah, but you're there. Yeah, but you're poly. I was just looking for the bathroom. Right? There's this societal denial of truth. Like, I was at the Pride parade. I had no idea it was the Pride parade. I just saw a bunch of glitter and candy and I'm a crafter and I like in it with a sweet tooth. I was there for the rainbows. I was there for the rainbows. Right. I thought there would be a pot of gold. I didn't realize it was going to be a honey pot. I just like, but just be mindful. Like if you're in your poly spaces and you run into people who are, if you run into people who are in those spaces, they're there because they wanted to be there. not because they were hunting you down. And so that can often be a comfortable place to find as a surprising ally in your search for coming out. But I think it's important to know. Just when you're ready to tell whomever you're ready to, you will. And that incremental method does absolutely help us be a little bit, help us perfect the story, as it were. Are you enjoying this episode? Sure, with your pollicule, or anyone curious about ethical governance? Monagony, don't forget to tell us on social media with your thoughts. We're happy to welcome you to the conversation. And I want to leave you with some final information so you can feel good about this stuff. Like, even if someone puts you on the spot and says, I found out your secret or whatever, try not to let yourself feel guilty about that, right? You're not doing anything wrong. As assuming you're being ethical with your reactions and with your polycule in general, you don't have to feel bad about it. The knee-jerk reaction is when you feel called out is to feel bad or feel like you need to explain or feel guilty and basically rush and be like, well, it's okay because, you know, so-and-so knows about it. You know, like, try not to feel that guilt within yourself. You are allowed to be whole on your own timeline. You do not owe anyone your truth. And remind yourself that coming out is not just one moment. It's a series of choices. So for me in my community, that meant pulling back on some of the people that I was comfortable talking about that with. You know, I found, I reached out and put myself out there and found that I wasn't willing to accept some of those judgments at that time. And I didn't want to hurt the businesses that I was working with. So I pulled it back a little bit. That's okay. It's a series of choices. It doesn't have to be this big mic drop moment at someone's wedding. Please don't come out of someone's wedding. Oh my God. Please come out at someone's wedding. I'm just going to be a chaos monster. That's it. Don't grab the mic and in your... Ignore all of this incremental advice bullshit. Find a public family event. Rent a DJ microphone and speakers and come out. That's it, Doc. I just scratched you off the list if I ever have a commitment to everyone. That's it. You're done. But yeah, it's a badass month. There doesn't have to be like some blockbuster event where you're like, I'd have missed this thing on. Excuse me. Members of the jury, members of the family and friends. I just want you all to know I'm polyamorous. No, sit down, Aunt Lucy. I'm not done with my toast yet. We're all polyamorous, and this is actually your invitation to the orgy. Thank you. Right. It's a family wedding. Yeah, but you do have to be prepared for some things along the way. Yeah, for sure. And I think that as you go through, so first of all, ignore it. I was just being sarcastic. But if that's your style, cool. I want to know your story. And I like to have an invite because I think that sounds like a lot of chaotic fun. I'm a great wedding guest, by the way. I have a great wedding guest. I am funny as though. And I can absolutely quarantine the obnoxious people in the corner that want to annoy the bride. So funny up. Right. So when you're coming out to people, be prepared for whatever response they may have with this understanding that it is their choice and how to respond. Use some of those conflict skills that you know from therapy and from listening to good podcasts like the Poly Pathways podcast and the episode with Kat and Man about conflict. Use pauses to help you use those therapy skills to take a step back like, hey, this is getting a little bit intense. I'm going to take a step back. Once you sit with that, I'm going to come back to it. But be prepared for, I think firstly, be prepared for acceptance. I have found that more people have been accepting or at least like, okay, like that doesn't. impact our relationship or our friendship or our working relationship. It doesn't impact us at all. So acceptance is always part of it. And then there is that sense of awkwardness. Probably you're leading that awkward charge more than anybody, but there could be some awkwardness around, oh, is that why this happened or is that why this happened? And of course, there is the chance that people, including your family, will reject you or reject aspects of your relationship because of of their belief system or their ideology or they're just old guard or they just don't know and they don't want to know or they're fixed or whatever it might be. But allow for them to make their choice and their response their own, know that it does not impact you at all. Hold space for them regardless of their response so that they can ask questions. They can't express curiosities because the initial response might be, oh, hell no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then a week or two later, it might be, so I'm curious, like, when you were flirting with my spouse, was that you coming on to them? And be like, no, no, no, that was just me being an asshole. I was just joking around. But you're going to, whatever their response is, whatever your story is to that response, that is going to help you get more clear. It's going to help you get your sense of self, your sense of footing, you're sure, you're kind of being sure footed in your polyamory, that's going to happen regardless of whether they're like, hells, no, or hells, yes. And you're going to feel more and more yourself. One, because it is now off of your chest. It is now not part of that guilty chain that you need to carry and shame that you need to carry more because you're out there. And also make a plan for yourself if it goes badly. If this is somebody who is critically important to you and you're like, you are the most important person in my life and I am polyamorous and I and they freak out or they lose their mind or they just get really rejected or they take a step back. Build in some of those safety mechanisms and comfort mechanisms for yourself so that you can manage that rejection. Might be a good idea to plan. If you're a plan or maybe plan having that conversation followed by therapy so that you can then talk to your therapist or work through your therapist and role play with your therapist around what that might be so that you have a plan to support yourself if things go badly. If things go well, I love that for you and I really hope so. I have not heard from too many people in the poly space that they're coming out as poly has. has been particularly difficult. It might be the times that we're living in, that polyamry boomed during the COVID lockdown, and we're starting to see more and more of that, so people are more accepting. We also benefit from our dear friends and courageous friends in the LGBTQIA space that things like coming out with alternative non-heteran mononormatives lifestyles and preferences and ways in the world is just more accepting today than it ever used to be. hopefully that doesn't change over the next few years of this regime, but I'll leave you with this. What we want you to know is that we're here for you, and we're thankful for this question about how to come out or what they might come out. Hopefully this answers at least some of her gives you some perspective, but if you've come out in poly and it's gone well or gone wrong, let us know, send us a note on your favorite social media or send us an email about it. We want to know what your coming out story is because this has been mine. It's been Kat's. but it's not been yours, and so you're part of our community, and we're here for you. So thank you for listening. Thank you for being part of the Poly Pathways community. We really enjoy that you're here, and we're hopeful that as you come out, more and more people accept you.