109: Creating Trauma-Informed Cultures, with Katharine Manning

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People really want to feel that connection with the people that they work with and I just saw it again and again this real desire to connect with each other, to support each other, to reach out to somebody who seems like they're struggling or somebody who never talks to anybody, and the joy and delight that comes when you do make an authentic connection in the workplace.
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Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience.
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I'm your host, manya Chylinski.
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My guest today is Katherine Manning.
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She's a trainer, a consultant and a speaker, and she works on building trauma-informed workplaces.
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She's the author of the book the Empathetic Workplace, and she and I talked about empathy and compassion and what it means to have a compassionate workplace.
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I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation.
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Hi Katherine, how are you today?
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I'm great.
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How are you?
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I'm doing well and I'm so excited that you and I are recording this podcast episode.
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Thank you for being here.
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I am so excited as well.
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Thank you for having me.
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First question before we dive into the topic of compassion and leadership what is one thing that you have done that you never thought you would?
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do I mean I got to say, like just the fact that my job is that I'm a public speaker that is not something I ever thought I would do.
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I was the kid where, like when people would sing happy birthday, I would dive under the table.
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Like when people would sing happy birthday, I would dive under the table.
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So the fact that I have traveled around the world and spoken to audiences of like thousands of people, that is definitely not something I ever thought I would do?
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I hear you Similar story over here, but thank you for doing the work that you do and getting in front of those audiences, even though maybe early on that wasn't where you think you were going, because the work that you do is so important.
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Thinking and talking about empathy and the workplace and that is what we're going to be digging into today.
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So, just to get started, how about you help us understand the difference between empathy and compassion?
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So you know there are so many different definitions for both of those Empathy often people think of as standing in another's shoes or feeling their feelings, looking through their eyes.
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Those are all things you hear.
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That's not really the way that I think of empathy, because we can't ever do that right.
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You know that's not actually possible to be able to see through somebody else's eyes and understand truly what they're feeling.
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But to me, empathy is a desire to understand.
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Like a curiosity is really to me the key of empathy.
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Like I want to understand you better and I want to support you.
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And then compassion is more of that.
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I now want to take action to support you.
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So to me they go hand in hand.
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Empathy is first the desire to understand and then compassion is the action based on that understanding.
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Oh, I love thinking about empathy as that curiosity and wanting to learn more about what somebody is feeling, because, you're right, we can't ever truly see from somebody else's perspective, but when we lead with that curiosity and openness, we can understand better where they are coming from.
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Okay, thank you for that.
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Well, we're thinking about compassion and empathy.
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I think these both go hand in hand.
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What are the first steps that an organization, a workplace should be thinking about to embed compassion and empathy into their culture?
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I mean, really, to me it starts with that inquiry why right, why do you want to embed it?
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Because there are, I'm sure, in every organization there are, people who are going to say this seems like a waste of time, it seems odds with our mission.
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And we have, we're hard driving, we have to do all these difficult things and we have to make hard decisions and we have to make deadlines and all that.
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And it is important, before you do any kind of step toward building a more empathetic or compassionate workplace culture, that you first grapple with those issues.
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Because if you have a percentage of the company who thinks this is not really worth it or this is not, this is kind of a nice little add on but not central to our mission, it's never going to be successful.
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So I think first is this soul searching like why do we need this, why is it essential to our success as an organization, our thriving as individuals, as teams and in terms of our mission?
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And then, once you understand that, that's when you can start to begin to embed it.
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Okay, what do you think that disconnect comes from?
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Because, as humans, I would say that all of us, or most of us, have empathy and compassion for at least someone in our lives and yet, when we move to an organizational setting, some of those very same people, I suspect, don't believe it's something important in that kind of environment.
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What is that disconnect?
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I think often we are seeing in our organizations demonstrates to us that that's actually not important.
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So often organizations get very, very focused on the next deadline or the next product cycle, whatever it is right, like the next, and they're not looking at the longer horizon.
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You know, an example I think of on this point is US Olympics gymnastics.
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So under the Carolis right, the coaches were the Carolis and they were very, very good at producing gold medals in the short term.
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But the way they did that was by leading with fear.
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Girls on that team were terrified and if they were sick, if they were hungry, if they were injured, they were shown the door.
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There is a line a mile long of girls waiting to take your place.
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So if you have any problem, you better shut up about it or you're going to be gone.
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That was the culture on that team and, yes, it produced a lot of gold medals in the short term, but it also produced the environment where Larry Nassar was able to abuse 200 girls and women over like a decade, and when that eventually did come out, what that led to was bankruptcy and the closing of the you know the ranch, the Corolli Ranch, and all the scandal and lawsuits.
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And so I always think a lot of organizations operate on a culture of leading with fear, and I think that if you are doing that, you are building your house on a minefield.
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There is going to be an explosion.
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You just don't know when or where it's going to happen.
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Yes, and you may go for quite a long time where it doesn't happen and be lulled into a false sense of security.
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That makes me think of the role of trust and psychological safety you were just describing an organization where neither of those things were particularly present and the leadership of an organization.
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What is their role in creating an environment where trust exists and where people feel psychologically safe?
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I mean, first off, understanding that you are never going to achieve long-term success without it.
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So you have to prioritize those things.
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And then, in terms of how to build it, to me trust comes down to the three Cs.
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So it's clarity, like do people understand what the rules are, what the values are, what the expectations are, what their responsibilities are?
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The rules are what the values are, what the expectations are, what their responsibilities are.
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Second is consistency.
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So we've now said what the rules are.
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Are they the rules for everybody except like my favorite employee, or like except for me, or are they really the rules that we are applying consistently?
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And then the third is choice.
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So, within that framework, are we giving people as much autonomy as possible over the decisions that affect their lives?
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Do we have just arbitrary rules because we're trying to prove something, or you know, is there actually a rationale for the rules as they are, and are we giving people as much autonomy as possible?
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Those three pieces and those pieces can help with individual decisions, but also policies that you set on an organizational or team basis.
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If you can focus on those, I think it's how you can build trust over time, which leads to psychological safety.
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Right, okay, they're all tied together and interconnected.
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Do you think, as we're looking at organizations and workplaces today, do you think that it's a resistance to compassion, empathy and trust and all these things that we're discussing, or is it a lack of awareness?
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I think I guess I would say it's probably more of the latter.
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What I am generally hearing from people is I am so overwhelmed and burned out.
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And now you're telling me that I have to be my employee's therapist, and so I think that's why I say it's a lack of awareness.
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Number one, I don't want you to be your employee's therapist even if you are a therapist, right, you are not their therapist and like that's not going to help anything.
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And also, having a compassionate environment where your employees know that you care about them is not at odds with doing high quality work.
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It's actually in sync with it, as long as you're also ensuring that you've got that consistency right, so you're not throwing away all of your expectations for one employee and their needs right.
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You have consistency in your application of rules and benefits.
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So if you have those things, then everybody is going to be performing better because they feel you know like they feel like you're treating them like a human.
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You're giving them the support that a human needs, and also part of that includes recognizing our own boundaries.
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How will you fall in the organization?
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Obviously, you want your manager to care about you, but that doesn't mean that they're driving you to your doctor's appointments.
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Right, it's a workplace.
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We have work things to get done.
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Your manager doesn't need to know your ACEs score Like let's you know.
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Let's focus on what.
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What we need, what kind of support we need in order to do the work that we need to do here.
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Yes, I appreciate that you brought up the word boundaries In a conversation offline with somebody else.
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They were talking about how being transparent in your conversations and having boundaries is compassion.
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It can feel difficult in certain circumstances to maintain those boundaries, whether you're the leader or the manager or the employee, but maintaining those boundaries is what helps you be compassionate.
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Yep, absolutely.
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I'm being clear and upfront about them from the beginning.
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I remember speaking with a manager once who said that there was a woman on his team who came to him to tell him that she had a cancer diagnosis.
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And he said, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry and like, whatever you need, whatever you need, we will give it to you.
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It's like really, really important for you to know that we stand by you and we're so supportive.
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Okay, so then nine months go by and she's been through treatment, she's in remission, she seems fine, but there's this ongoing supportive measures being taken.
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And so then he finally raises with her hey, so do you think we can step those down now?
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And she says wait a second, you told me I could get whatever support I wanted.
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Why are you going back on that now?
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And she feels afraid.
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Right, Because there wasn't that clarity from the beginning.
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Obviously, resources are not infinite, so you have to kind of start the way you mean to continue.
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So be clear from the beginning about we are so sorry.
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I'm devastated that you're dealing with this.
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What do you need right now?
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And then, why don't we evaluate again in a month and a month after that and see where we are?
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Yes, that evaluation, check-in, was something that, in this conversation, we talked a lot about.
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You make the decision at the beginning based on what you know, and you set a time to check in and re-evaluate.
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Is it still working for both sides?
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Because, as you mentioned, we're talking about a workplace.
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There are expectations of us as employees, of some level of productivity.
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So this is not I don't even know how to say it this is just this.
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Compassion in the workplace is not just some way to let people get away with not doing what they need to do.
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We still have to recognize it is a place of business.
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And it doesn't serve anybody for the company to go down right Like that's not actually helpful.
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We have to continue to do really high quality work Absolutely.
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Well, what kind of policies or structures in an organization do you think are necessary for supporting leadership to be making these kind of compassionate choices?
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I think it's important that there be robust services available effective mental health support, whether that's an EAP or some other kind of support.
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I think having flexible work options that are available is another really important thing.
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Frankly, security options, I think, are important.
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You know my own background.
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Coming from doing domestic violence work, I know how important those security options can be as well.
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So just making sure that the organization is open to hearing about the kinds of supports tangible supports that people need and finding ways to make those accessible.
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I've seen through the pandemic, I mean, I've been amazed at some of the supports that organizations have put together, and I remember talking with one woman who said I have a bakery in a small town.
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I have 13 employees, but she was able to opt into a network that allowed her to offer mental health counseling to her employees and I thought, wow, that is amazing that such a small organization could do that.
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So I'm really thrilled at the options that are available now, and so I think it's important that organizations are listening to their people and trying to provide those kinds of supports, because those supports can be the difference between people being able to continue working through a difficult time and not Absolutely, and you mentioned earlier leaders, managers, which I am using those interchangeably, sometimes expressing that they're overwhelmed with the amount of work they have to do in their own jobs, let alone do I have to be taking care of somebody else.
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What do you think we're missing in leadership development?
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That we're not necessarily preparing leaders to be compassionate in the workplace?
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I really feel like the piece that's missing is the self-care.
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Like we can't, you know.
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However, they say it like you can't pour from an empty bucket or whatever.
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Like if we're not taking care of ourselves, we're never going to be able to take care of others.
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And so often the way that we get promoted is because we are willing to work harder than anybody else.
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Yes, and then what are we demonstrating to everybody?
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I remember once speaking with a woman who was a leader of a nonprofit organization and she said oh, I always tell my staff is comes first and work life balance is so important and you have to be taking care of yourself.
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And I said so how often are you responding to emails?
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At 11 at night?
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And she was like.
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I said Listen, like they are.
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They are hearing what you say, but more than that, they're watching what you say, but more than that, they're watching what you do Absolutely.
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And like it's not great for you.
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It's, frankly, not great for your team either If every problem that arises, you're the one who has to fix it.
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Yes, so let them wear the cape sometimes, you know, like don't look at it as you have to be the all knowing person all the time, go back to them with like well, what have you tried and what do you think the answer would be?
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Right and I also think about when you're considering particularly large companies, global organizations, thousands of employees, and you're looking at the leadership, the executive leadership, and I feel like there could be such a disconnect between what they say and do and the experience of the employees at the bottom, who are earning the least amount in the whole organization.
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And to me, that disconnect also contributes to that misunderstanding and lack of compassion, because the leader might say something that feels compassionate, feels caring, feels like they're saying the right thing, but somebody who's making significantly less money than them is probably not going to hear it in the way that they mean it.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean to me.
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This is why it's so important to have a culture where people feel free to say authentically feel.
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Often that's not really the case and maybe maybe you as the leader, feel that way, but when is the last time you heard something that maybe surprised you or that you didn't expect, and are there lots of opportunities for people to tell you what's really going on?
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You know, I worked with one leader where he started doing quarterly town halls.
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It was him and the director of HR and it was just like what do you want me to know?
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Anybody could call in and say like this thing is breaking down and it's making my life a lot harder.
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Or, you know, I'm experiencing X and and he had his rule was they always followed up by the next meeting?
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Yeah, which goes back to that trust and being open in your communications.
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And earlier on you mentioned fear.
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That exists in a lot of organizations and it can even be a tool for management and we are in an interesting political and social climate these days.
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And how do you think all of those things mushed together are influencing leadership styles?
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I definitely have the sense that people are feeling very uncertain right now and largely what I'm hearing from people is like I just want to kind of keep my head down and not get in trouble.
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So it seems sort of a culture of fear right now.
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Somebody who has worked with a lot of people who have experienced trauma and distress and really, really difficult situations Fear is at odds with creativity and productivity.
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It is very, very hard to be a clear thinker, resolve complex, thorny issues when you are afraid all the time.
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It takes energy and so if you are trying to get 10 things done and you're doing it out of like oh God, I'm going to get fired.
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If I don't, I'm going to get them done as well.
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You feel calmer and have better access to your full brain capacity because you don't have energy going to the fear.
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Right, and we also know that when we're dealing with intense emotions Right.
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And we also know that when we're dealing with intense emotions, we can't intake information, we can't remember what we heard.
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So if your job requires any of that and you're feeling that fear and that stress, you're already missing out on pieces of what you need to be doing, absolutely.
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What do you think is the biggest risk to organizations if they don't embrace compassion?
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and empathy in leadership.
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You know it's interesting.
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So I guess I would say the easy answer is like the world is changing and you have to change with it, right?
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I mean, lots of studies have shown that millennials and Gen Z expect from their workplace that it will treat them as humans, that they expect compassion, they expect mental health support.
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They're much more comfortable talking about it and I believe I saw recently that 75% of the workforce is going to be millennials by like next year.
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So it is happening regardless of what you do, but also you're just going to be so much stronger.
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I, you know, I don't know like.
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So here's a quick story, I guess, just to make it a bit more tangible for people.
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So I remember once talking with a CEO of a company and I was telling him what I do and why and he got kind of quiet and then he said you know, he almost fired one of my best friends.
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And what he said was this guy was the head of sales for the company.
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He was really a pillar of the company's success.
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They had kind of come up together and then one day his performance just fell off a cliff.
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He was showing up late, he was distracted in meetings.
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He he was missing deadlines and the rest of the leadership team met about it and they said I think we have to let him go because we can't have somebody in this important a role who's not able to do the work.
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And then finally somebody said, well, why don't we just talk to him first and see what he has to say for himself?
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And when they did, they learned that his wife was dying and he hadn't wanted to talk about it in the workplace because he thought I don't want to bring all of my personal problems into work.
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Once they had the conversation I mean one like they expressed compassion to him and care.
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They got supports around him.
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But according to this CEO, his performance did a 180 that day before the supports were even in place.
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And in thinking about like, why would that be what I'm reminded of.
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I have a friend who said this.
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She said you know, you have the stress over what's going on at home and there's not much work can do about that.
00:23:31.761 --> 00:23:37.300
And you have the stress of the job, which there's maybe some they can do, but like the job still needs to get done.
00:23:37.300 --> 00:23:42.860
But there's this third stress which is what is work going to say about what I'm dealing with at home.
00:23:42.860 --> 00:23:45.012
You can eliminate that.
00:23:45.012 --> 00:23:49.843
You allow the person to focus more on the first two, which are so much more important.
00:23:50.549 --> 00:24:08.162
Yes, wow, that is such a clear example of the value of having compassion and listeners couldn't see this, but when you mentioned that, they stopped to ask him what he was feeling.
00:24:08.162 --> 00:24:19.267
We both made some faces like yes, that seems to me the basic, very first thing.
00:24:19.267 --> 00:24:21.370
That should have happened before the meeting even.
00:24:21.370 --> 00:24:33.086
But I recognize it might not be the thing that people think of, but so important to talk to the people that your decisions are going to affect.
00:24:34.772 --> 00:24:36.683
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:24:37.347 --> 00:24:44.055
Yeah, I think that's full stop, so we're getting close to know.
00:24:44.095 --> 00:25:06.922
As we talked about, I just had foot surgery and I've been feeling a little like down and like exhausted and in pain.
00:25:06.922 --> 00:25:15.553
And then, because I did not adequately prepare for how it would feel post surgery, I planned eight trainings in the week after.
00:25:18.639 --> 00:25:19.039
I know.
00:25:20.141 --> 00:25:24.733
I was like I'm sure I'll be fine, I'll be off the Percocet by then.
00:25:24.733 --> 00:25:51.972
So but despite that right, despite feeling so exhausted and run down and in pain and all of that, I left every single training session just so fulfilled and inspired and like the connection that we felt among us as we talked about these issues and the clear hunger that people have for this at work.
00:25:51.972 --> 00:25:59.490
You know, you spend the bulk of your time at work, like you spend so many hours of your life with your colleagues.
00:25:59.490 --> 00:26:13.491
People really want to feel that connection with the people that they work with, and I just saw it again and again this real desire to connect with each other, to support each other to.
00:26:13.491 --> 00:26:26.953
You know, reach out to somebody who seems like they're struggling, or somebody who never talks to anybody, or, and the joy and delight that comes when you do make an authentic connection in the workplace.
00:26:26.953 --> 00:26:36.040
So I mean, to me it's, it speaks to that we're hardwired for empathy and connection and that's that's something that I see again and again.
00:26:36.890 --> 00:26:37.834
Oh, that's so lovely.
00:26:37.834 --> 00:26:45.775
Thank you for sharing that and, before we go, please share with our listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do and how they can reach you.
00:26:46.698 --> 00:26:47.098
Thank you.
00:26:47.098 --> 00:26:48.716
So I'm Katharine Manning.
00:26:48.716 --> 00:26:52.160
I do training and consulting on empathy at work.
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:57.838
I often say it's empathy when it matters most, so how do you support each other through hard times?
00:26:57.838 --> 00:27:05.646
I have a book called the Empathetic Workplace Five Steps to a Compassionate, calm and Confident Response to Trauma on the Job.
00:27:05.646 --> 00:27:06.934
It's available everywhere.
00:27:06.934 --> 00:27:10.500
You can get books and you can find out more about me on my website, katherinemanning.
00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:11.566
com.
00:27:12.168 --> 00:27:12.470
Wonderful.
00:27:12.470 --> 00:27:17.142
I will include links in the show notes to make it easier for folks to find you.
00:27:17.142 --> 00:27:20.031
Katherine, thank you so much for joining me.
00:27:20.031 --> 00:27:21.516
This was a fabulous conversation.
00:27:21.516 --> 00:27:22.940
Thank you so much.
00:27:22.940 --> 00:27:23.862
It's such a pleasure.
00:27:23.862 --> 00:27:26.772
Thank you for listening.
00:27:26.772 --> 00:27:28.596
I'm Manya Chylinski.
00:27:28.596 --> 00:27:35.881
I help organizations analyze their culture, focusing on building environments where well-being and resilience can thrive.
00:27:35.881 --> 00:27:45.799
Through this process, we identify areas for growth, develop strategies and create the necessary changes to build healthier, more supportive organizations.
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:48.639
If you're ready to make a change, I'd love to connect.
00:27:48.639 --> 00:27:58.799
If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts or your listening platform of choice.
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:08.315
It really helps others find us, and if you want to continue the conversation, connect with me on LinkedIn or visit my website, www.
00:28:08.315 --> 00:28:08.315
manyachylinski.
00:28:08.315 --> 00:28:11.680
com.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:14.325
Thank you for being part of this journey with me.