Jeanne: [00:00:06] Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Naturally High. And today, as always, I'm excited. And you will be too. When you hear who our guest is today. Her name is Sylvia Holtzlag. She's the founder of the State Shift Institute in the Netherlands and creator of the State Shift Method, a coaching framework with card decks that integrates Phil Stutz and Barry Michels tools, Jungian shadow work, Michael Singer's teaching on surrender and heroic principles for accountability and discipline. Now, Sylvia has been working with the Stutz tool since 2016 after studying psychology and diverse coaching courses. Nothing resonated as much as the tools did. Through her 1 to 1 coaching practice, group programs and two published books, she's helped over 10,000 people face what they'd rather avoid and use as fuel for growth. She hosts the Dutch podcast. I'm hopefully going to pronounce it as well as I can, called onslaught, which means unhooked in English. And she runs the State Shift Institute from the Netherlands, where she trains, coaches and guides internationally, mostly online, with state shift tools through her shadow work, radical self-honesty, self-acceptance and self-love. So a big hearty welcome. Sylvia, thank you so much for being with us today. I'm really excited to dive in because our audience doesn't really understand what state shift method is, and maybe we should just start there. Tell us a little bit about the work you do.
Sylvia: [00:01:36] Thank you. And thank you for that beautiful introduction, Jeanne. Yes. So the state shift method is inspired by the work of Phil Stutz, Barry Michels, well, all the names that you just said, and this is about getting from insight to action. I used to have also a problem with addiction to say it like that, what society would call normal, but became for me, bad habits that really got in the way of being the person who I am without all the needing all the things from the outside world. And when I discovered the tools by Phil Stutz, I wished that I had what I have created now, and without wanting to sound arrogant. But I'm so glad that I could make this now to help people with to do the work daily. Because knowing that you need to change something is a big difference with actually also doing it, integrating it in your life. And that is what the state shift method helps people with. So let's dive in and maybe you would like to have a demonstration on what the state method is. Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:02:36] Before we go, can I just mention something? But I absolutely am ready to go. And I have no idea what she's going to ask me or what my problem is or what I'm going to bring forward. So I just want everybody to know this is a complete spontaneous accountability of whatever's going to come forward. Yeah. But you talked about something interesting. So most of our listeners are in some sort of recovery, whether it's recovery from being human, whether it's recovery from addiction, whether it's recovery from their own trauma, self-healing journey, whatever it may be. You had a moment of clarity where you were, what looked like just a normal drinker. And they call that gray drinking, which is like two thirds of the population. Actually, more than two thirds of the population have habitual, what we call habitual gray drinking, where they just really they know it kind of doesn't, you know, it kind of robs something from them, but they don't really see it as a problem because everybody around them is doing it and everybody is high functioning and holding down jobs, families, whatever. But you had this moment of clarity and then you suddenly you went into a complete, I guess, remission, which is almost like spontaneous, you know, recovery without any treatment. Because if you had come to me and said, hey, you know what, I think I have a drinking problem or anyone for that matter, a lot of people would. Maybe not me because I'm much more liberal thinker, but most people would say, you think you need this, you need to go to a 12 step group. You need to go to treatment, you need to go to a therapist, you need to do this. People would have given you a myriad of solutions. And yet you found what I call spontaneous recovery all by yourself. So do you just want to share that insight before we go into that demo, if you don't mind, please.
Sylvia: [00:04:15] Yeah. Yes. Of course. Yeah. It was a moment when I was in a traffic jam. You are recalling that moment, right? What I told you about. Yeah, that I that I saw myself from a bird's eye perspective. It was it was hot, I was hungover, I was listening to the news. I had a headache. I was like tired. I was feeling all these feelings and, and I was staying in, standing in these kind of traffic jams almost daily. But this was the one moment that I just was so fed up with myself. I saw myself from a bird's eye perspective, and I was thinking like, where is that radiant woman with hopes and dreams for her life that I once had. At that point, I had like. Apart from all the studies that I've done, but also like a dozen of unfinished projects on the shelf because I was always too tired, I really wanted to make something out of my life. And that's the moment that I decided, okay, let's start with listening to something else than the news, because I was listening to that from early morning to late evening. I needed to, I needed to follow everything. And once I could, I drove off the highway, lit up a smoke. Another addiction. I also was addicted to shopping, to scrolling, Netflixing you know, you can name it. I had it and people would call it normal. But at that moment I thought I listened to something else. And I found this book app.
Sylvia: [00:05:38] And in the book that I started to listen, um, they were mentioning the tools from Phil Stutz. And I had read like you as well. I was also a self-development junkie. That's also an addiction, but nothing really resonated for me until this book came out of my speaker, and it was like an angel choir started to sing. It was just it struck me like, this is about me. This is you. Yeah, it's really stopped me. And I started listening like all the time because this was something that was actually practical. It was something that I could apply. And I started right away doing it, that the reversal of desire is one of the tools. And that means that you turn around what you what you want. And mostly when it comes to doing something difficult, that's something like, oh no, that's too difficult. I can't do that. That's too hard. If you reverse your desire to wanting to do the difficult things, that's actually where you overcome yourself because we know we need to do something. But there's always this gap, the gap from where you are to where you want to be. If there is no bridge, you fall. And that's what the tools are. And now what I also have created with my state shift method, it's the bridge to get there. It helps you to overcome your inner saboteur, your part X as Phil Stutz, um, brilliant psychologist from LA would call it, who is also the author of The Tools, also known from the Netflix documentary Stutz.
Sylvia: [00:07:09] If people are interested in more information about this. And um, he created Tools to, to, to get out of our heads because we are overthinking all the time. We are thinking a lot about what we should be doing, what we are not taking action. And that was the moment where it all started for me to, to quit, to let go of the things that were not serving me. And, and to start with things, uh, and, and also finish things that were important. So that's when I suddenly could finish books when I suddenly had the guts to quit my, um, well-paid but, but not fulfilling job and start my own coaching practice where I could step up and start my my tool school to coach other coaches and do it another round and now creating the stage shift method. And normally if I wouldn't have found the tools and later also heroic and Michael Singer's work, I would still be, I think, um, pretty much in that same place. And worse, because as you get older, it gets worse and would never have had done all these things. But now there's this life force flowing, um, that I that is just unstoppable. And no, it's not easy. And yes, I fall down like regularly, but I always get back up because I know that it's not in how often you fall, but in how often you stand up again.
Jeanne: [00:08:33] Absolutely.
Sylvia: [00:08:34] And that's a long answer to your question. I'm sorry.
Jeanne: [00:08:37] I just want to break it down for people because really, you know, um, there's so much richness here and it's about the bridge that gets us from knowing to doing right, because we're all not short on information. I always say that, but we're short on implementation. We know what we should do, whether it's I need to not eat that chocolate cake or stop drinking or get into action around, you know, I'm ready enough right around whatever it is we do, but yet we are stuck. So having a practical application, whatever that tool is for a person in those more moments, rather than abort it entirely. And the other thing that you brought up is that, and I find this with myself and I've looked at it, we are wired for comfort as humans. We will repel discomfort in terms of our memory. Our memory is select in the same way that we kind of remember all the terrible things, but we have trouble recalling those good moments because we're just wired that way. And so to lean into something, um, there's parts of me that can do that really, really well. But I think those parts of me that are still stuck in that respect, I can lean into discomfort because maybe if it has something to do with my, I don't know, maybe integrity goals, some things I do incredibly well and I'm super disciplined, but there's some things that I think it's the part X for me that goes, hold on a second.
Jeanne: [00:10:05] Who do you think you are? You know, you're this isn't completely yours. Like we're really whatever we're teaching, we're handing down from our teachers before us for every single one of us on this earth. Right? Our teachers before us led the way, and they paved the way for us. And then there was people who we will pass on our knowledge and teachings to them, and they will carry it forward, and so on and so on. So I used to get stuck in, well, it's not 100% mine. So not talking about plagiarism, but I used to get stuck on the perfect way to, you know, say something, do something, show something, teach something that I end up spinning around doing nothing. So maybe that's a good place for us to do a demo or about another subject altogether. But we talked about what, you know, the state shift looks like in at practical application.
Sylvia: [00:10:55] Yes. Yes, indeed. Yeah. So, so let's just dive in. Uh, the state shift method contains three steps. And, and that's always determining, uh, your state. So what's the state that you are in? Um, and then we make the shift that would be doing the tool. And then we take a step, we take even the smallest step, even the smaller the better, because that's easier to repeat. So we take the smallest action from the inside and the change in our inner state that we, we can do. So what I can do is, um, just blindly draw a card for you, Jeanne. I always like to do that because I believe that the universe always brings, uh, what's needed. And also taking into account, uh, the audience that is listening that also for you if you are listening, um, this is um, this is the card that you, uh, need.
Jeanne: [00:11:46] So, I want to do something. Here's my deck. I don't know if you can see us, but we're going to put the link for the card deck in the show notes. But they are beautiful. They are so well done. They are so fun. And I'm just going to show you like some of them, they're just like so fun and really relatable, so be sure to check them out. Anyway. Thank you.
Sylvia: [00:12:06] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, let's jump in. So what I'm doing is I'm putting energy on it and I'm just shuffling the cards and I will see what the universe brings us. And it might be from a card falling out. That's mostly how I do it, but it can also be like, okay, I feel I need to take this one well. And this is very interesting that we are getting this card because we were just speaking about, uh, Part X, our inner saboteur. I call it the saboteur. That's the voice in your head that always keeps us stuck. Because the thing is, um, we have trained ourselves to listen to that voice, right? Yeah, yeah, it's always there. But also we are listening. That's that's the thing. When we were younger. If you are in a. Yeah, I have to say, also add to that, hey, if you have a healthy childhood, I would say, you know, it comes.
Jeanne: [00:12:56] Mine hasn't been when people know.
Sylvia: [00:12:58] Well, mine, mine also know mine neither. Um, but there was a part in my childhood that I wasn't as influenced by my saboteur. It came later on for me that I really felt stuck, like all the time. Like it was talking like, you are not good enough and who do you think you are? That was something that came on repeat on a little bit later age. So this is about the saboteur and taking action.
Jeanne: [00:13:23] Oh my goodness. Like you could have created the perfect, I'm so I'm saying this and this is completely spontaneous. And I cannot believe out of all the cards in the deck, this is the most appropriate because this is where I get stuck the most. I get stuck in it being perfect, which is totally unachievable. I know that intellectually, but somehow that's what paralyzes me because I've been told I'm not good enough all my life. So I play into that narrative. So let's go.
Sylvia: [00:13:51] Yeah. Let's go. So I invite you if you are also listeners, if you are not driving or in traffic to close your eyes and first really connect to yourself and think about where you are stuck on where and what's the thing that's getting in your way. We all have our things. It can be on. It can be on nutrition. It can also be on alcohol. It can be on a negative thinking or anxiety. What keeps you stuck on starting that project? Whatever the thing is, just take it in your mind and have it in your mind and think about the smallest action that you can take to do it. And I would like you to feel the resistance that you have against it. Feel the resistance. Don't walk away from it. Just feel it. Check in where you feel it. And I would like you to reframe the resistance as something that has meaning. If there would be no resistance to do it unless it's very unhealthy for you, if there wouldn't be no resistance, it would have no meaning. So reframe that. Imagine that you are putting a frame around that fear, the thing that you need to do. See that in like this, this cookie, this, we call this also the death cookie, and that you put all that fear in that cookie and you eat it.
Sylvia: [00:15:17] You have it as breakfast, you eat it as fuel and we call that has swallowed the saboteur. You eat your demons. You have the death cookie, as Phil states would say, and the saboteur you Swallow will give you its power. And now feel how you are getting all that strength that see yourself doing it, taking that smallest action and see yourself on the other side. That's what what the meaning is of eating the death cookie, of swallowing the saboteur. I'm just doing it. I feel the fear and I eat it and I do it anyway. And then you feel that energy flowing through your whole system. And now you open up your eyes. And as soon as this podcast is done, you are going to do it. And this is the card. Yes. Yeah. So this is the card, uh, for the people who are looking and seeing the action. Yes. Follow the seeing the action, reframing it, literally eating the pain from it, and then, uh, standing for yourself, like, okay, the saboteur you swallow will give you its power.
Jeanne: [00:16:20] So it's interesting because for a period of time now, I've been witnessing myself because I'm good at witnessing, because I'm conscious and I've been witnessing myself being resistant about a lot of things, whether it's exercise, whether it's starting something, whether it's finishing something, and I'm going like, what is going on, girl? Like, really, what is going on? And obviously, if you take time to literally listen to yourself natter, I call it nattering. Like, you know, just going on and on and on. And we know that we have 50 to 70,000 thoughts a day. So that's a lot of thoughts that are going through and being really unfiltered in terms of how they can subtly and overtly influence your life, if you think about it. So for me, my resistance has really been like, why are you resisting? Like, like what is the value of resistance? And okay, obviously, so I'm scared. Maybe I'm scared of something or being, I think for me, with a saboteur, for me, it's about being wrong. And it sounds so simple. Like, okay, we all make mistakes, we're human. And I, and I know that intellectually, but when you're a child and you're vulnerable and you were told all the time that you're doing it wrong, it really I'm getting emotional speaking about it, but it really kind of makes you break in your tracks.
Jeanne: [00:17:47] It just like put the brakes on because if you, if you're not wrong and you play it safe, then everything will be okay. But in the meantime, if you play it so safe, you can't really have the beauty of what's on the other side of that either. So that for me is what came out of that reading was really that I don't want to be wrong, even though this is not an intellectual pursuit that we're talking about. It's a deeply emotional. And so therefore, I just don't execute in certain areas where it feels unsafe, where I can be judged, for example. And even a podcast is a brazen move. I'm pretty comfortable here, and I recognize that I may not be for everybody, but for the most part, I can do this. But maybe writing a book I can't do. Or maybe teaching I can't do. So there's other parts. That's where the practice, I think comes in. Like, we're never exonerated. We're never there yet. We're always in practice, which is what a yoga practice is. A daily practice is we get a daily reprieve. That's what 12 steps would say from being exonerated from our next drink. And then we start again. And on and on we go.
Sylvia: [00:18:57] Yeah, yeah. And can I offer you something on what you are experiencing in those moments? Because there is also how would you say I felt unsafe as a child and sorry, what was the phrase that you, uh.
Jeanne: [00:19:08] Felt really criticized, i never got it right. I could never do anything right. I always got it wrong. Wrong was the like, the word that I heard most frequently. So even the language was not communicated in a way that was tender. It was very judgmental.
Sylvia: [00:19:24] Yeah, yeah. So I would go to that little girl. Mhm. In those moments that whatever happens, that you won't reject her, that you just close your eyes and you see your little Jeanne in those moments and that you connect to her. I see you, I acknowledge you, and whatever happens here, I'm putting myself out there. And even if it goes wrong, if I mess it up, it will never be your fault. I will still love you. I will not reject you. You are a part of me and you matter. You are my number one.
Jeanne: [00:20:01] That's the work. The part that feels like you're deserving. I guess you're deserving of the grace, right? Because as a child you felt like you weren't. You felt like you were really wrong because that way then your family or your caregivers could be right because knowing that they were wrong, which we don't know at that age. We only know that later on would be too painful. So we turned the war on ourselves. And that's where people, I think, get stuck, not recognizing that it really has nothing to do about them. It was really about these beautiful, as I say, our spiritual curriculum that we are given to evolve to be our highest self.
Sylvia: [00:20:43] Yes. Yeah. But that's the message we got. And the problem is that even at 40, 50, 60, 70 plus years old, we still have that same message within us. I'm not deserving. I'm not worthy. And that's something that, of course it, it happened in our childhood, but we are still keeping that within us. And that is our responsibility to, to connect, to reconnect to that part is also, by the way, a card in the deck to reconnect to that part of ourselves. Um, and because it is, you know, why wouldn't you be worthy? You know, it's, it's something that other people made you feel, even if it were your case, caretakers or a teacher or a friend or whatever. But we are holding on to that. We are keeping that belief within us. And it influences still at a higher age. Uh, our whole life.
Jeanne: [00:21:34] Well, it's interesting because the more conscious you become, the more awake you are in your life, the more you recognize how much you don't know. Right? It's like it's.
Sylvia: [00:21:44] The more you know, the less you know. Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:21:46] Ignorance is bliss. Like could I. Now you understand why people who don't really care are sort of in that zone. Because they really don't know what they don't know. Right? Yes. And so for me, it's when I listen, like I was listening to you as I was going to exercise earlier today. Listen to her in my car. And I'm in one of her programs. And I was listening to a module on it. And I'm thinking to myself, I don't know how often I listen to my voice. I'm really good at witnessing. I can see myself much better than listen to myself, which is an interesting fact. I don't know why I can visually see myself outside of myself, but the listening is something I've never. It's like that background radio noise, which I call it frequency. You call it Shit FM, which is beautiful. But it's like that nattering. I don't notice as much. And I'm really awake now to that voice, which is giving me another dimension to sort of. So this is why. Oh yeah, I wasn't really paying attention to her. Like she's just nonstop brutal going, right? Like, I knew I had an inner critic, but I didn't really know that that voice was sort of playing 24 over seven. Right? I was just looking at myself in certain actions going, wow, interesting. And like, you know, more curious, like why you're doing that or not doing something, but not as judgmental, but the voice is brutal. So what are some of the suggestions that you can offer listeners in, I guess, befriending that voice, starting to get more comfortable with the voice, rather than going straight to that inner critic and berating it because it can be harsh at times.
Sylvia: [00:23:28] Yes. Well, um, it depends on which voice you are talking about. So what I, what I believe and this might take on, ah, the psyche is that we contain multitudes. We have many parts. So we have the authentic self, the higher self or whatever you want to call that. And we have the part X aka the saboteur voice. But and we have most people have a busload full of shadows on different parts. So yeah, yeah, indeed. And, but the saboteur, um, yeah, is, is the negative voice. And you can't befriend that voice because it's the negative energy that is always within us. It's every force has a counter force. So we have life force. And the counter force would be our saboteur. And the saboteur always wants to keep you stuck. So what would that be helpful is to catch your saboteur, to label the saboteur. And I always say put a stamp on it. Every time you have a negative thought about yourself or the world, that would be your saboteur. And it's very interesting. It's the first thing that I teach people when I coach them. Start, you know, jotting down how do you call it just a stripe for every moment that it's attacking you?
Jeanne: [00:24:42] Yeah. Like I noticed like when you're, when you're offended by something or you're not liking something like.
Sylvia: [00:24:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeanne: [00:24:49] Well, I have this thing going on with exercise. I'm really getting good results and yet I'm resisting it. I don't even know what it's about. Like, I really don't like it, but I'm thinking like, you're going to go, so what's the point? Right?
Sylvia: [00:25:00] Yeah. But you know, it works. Yeah. It's noticing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And labeling it.
Jeanne: [00:25:06] Easy, right. For myself or probably for my trainer.
Sylvia: [00:25:10] Yeah. But that's, that's the the follow up stuff, but the first moment is noticing when it's when it starts to complain, you know? And if I let it, it starts with, hey, it's raining outside. Oh, my parking spot is busy. I have to make breakfast for my kid and I don't have time or I have so many clients, you know, when I have time for myself and and I'm too fat and this is not good. And it's like, uh, like 24 over seven, like you said. So it's very interesting to have like a notebook paper and a pen and paper with you all the time, every time, time is attacking you. And I guarantee you with 1.5 hour, you go nuts. But that's when you really realize, okay, this is a part of me. This is not the whole me. And what you then do is, okay, you can put it outside of you like, okay, have it in front of you. You can, you can even form an image of your saboteur. And for me, it would like be a little bit of a devilish figure of myself. I it's like the evil version of myself, like, uh, Mr. Hyde, but then in a female version like, I got you, you know, I'm your whine, witch, the bitch, that's all it is always complaining, you know? And you know, I'm there with long nails. But if you have it inside, if you can make an image from an image from it.
Jeanne: [00:26:25] I have an image. Mine's Cruella de Vil. Oh, cool. Okay. She's brutal. She was a wicked witch.
Sylvia: [00:26:32] Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah. And if you take that moment to close your eyes and to see her and to put, like this spotlight on her or on him, uh, it depends on what image you have. It can't attack you if you put consciousness on it. And that's such a simple tool, state shift, whatever you want to call it to do, you know, because if you put consciousness, the thing is it attacks you from the unconscious. It attacks you when you are unaware. Yeah. And what it wants to let you believe that it is you who's doing the complaining. It is you who's having the resistance. And it's not. That's the it's biggest lie. It's just a part of you because there's also a big part of you which people also, we all recognize that I want this beautiful life for myself. I want to be the person who is like, uh, joyful, happy that, that enjoys life, that is, that is present, that, that, where the days have meaning. But the thing is, we have trained ourselves and not on purpose, but we are listening to that voice and we think we are it that it's the full self and it's just a part of us. And when you catch it in the act like I've got you, you can make a different decision. And that's A) not to listen to it. And that's why, um, I changed your behavior and your feeling will follow will help because as soon as you start listening to resistance, I recognize, you know, it's not that I like to work out, but if I am listening, like, okay, I have an planning, like, okay, I go work out six in the morning or seven, whatever.
Sylvia: [00:28:09] Um, and I say that to myself, once the alarm clock goes, it's like, uh, I don't want to go. If I start listening to that, you know, it's, I'll stay down. No, the first thing that I'm not listening, like go, go, go, go as soon as I can. Yeah. And the other, on the other hand, also, if I need to, I do that state shift like, okay, bring it on. Let's go. You know, it's, I'm putting myself in. There's a, there's a card for that also to, to, to get through the wall. I call it the hammer that you form that sledge hammer from yourself going through the wall of resistance being catapulted on the other side. And I'm doing it. Nothing will stop me, I am unstoppable. And if you keep repeating that, because the resistance way is our six lane highway. We know it. It drives easy. There's no other traffic. But this is like the new bumpy sandy road that we would normally avoid. And that's the resistance. That's the pain avoidance. And we have to go there to make it our new highway. And that's something you can train. And that's what we do with the. Yeah. With this or.
Jeanne: [00:29:14] Any other, if you think of yeah, you're building new neural pathways. Right.
Sylvia: [00:29:18] Exactly.
Jeanne: [00:29:19] And so, so instead of like repeating old behaviors, um, you're learning to exercise that muscle with the new behavior, right? Like, so if I'm going to exercise, I think that's where I'm going to start is with obviously the perfectionist piece I'm going to work on. But I think for me, it's around, okay, if you're going to do this, just do it.
Sylvia: [00:29:38] Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:29:39] Pretend you like it. Like don't even entertain that voice.
Sylvia: [00:29:42] Yeah, indeed. Don't even entertain that voice. Don't listen to it. Yeah. Because it's also be the person. What would the person do, uh, that you aspire to be, that you want to be and you are already it. It's not about becoming someone new. It's about removing what is in the way to be your most authentic and full self.
Jeanne: [00:30:06] And be the person you want to embody.
Sylvia: [00:30:08] Yeah, you are already dead, but but you are just not doing the things and you have trained yourself on different beliefs. And if you remove those beliefs, it's like you're not worthy. If we remove that belief of you are not worthy, you are worthy. If we work on okay, I work on letting go of resistance, but to surrendering like, okay, I suck it up. It is difficult, it is challenging, but you know, I think I'm worthy of being fit. I'm worthy of taking care of my physical body. And it takes doing the hard stuff. And why is there a resistance? Because it has meaning. If my part X or saboteur is blathering that loud to me, this must be very important. And what I see it as, and this is also a tip to see it as a reverse indicator. And the harder something is, the more value, the more growth there is. And you can say to yourself, aha, I just got a big fish. Let's take that in. I do it on purpose to mess up my saboteur. If it says like when I'm under the shower, I do cold showers. Like, oh, no, not today. No, it's hot and you have your period. And also, oh, you also have to take the cold shower. That's horrible. Yeah. Cold. No, shut up. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And that's, you know, that's where you overcome that part, overcome resistance. And you grow from that because, you know, if you do all these small things on a day instead of not doing them, the pain in the moment is less than the suffering later added the weight of the pain. Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:31:40] Yeah. There's no question the suffering is eternal. It feels eternal anyway. Goes on and on and on. Where the resistance is a very shorter period of time, unless you make yourself miserable. One of the most impressive quotes that has stuck with me, one of my mantras in life was by Byron Katie and basically what it is, was do not argue with reality.
Sylvia: [00:32:03] Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:32:04] And we do that all the time. Every single one of us. We want to bend our external world rather than take the easier route, which is to look at what we can control, which is internal and is mind boggling that we do that, number one. And it's mind boggling how we can be feel so awake in so many aspects of our life, but yet still so far behind. Like for me saying, I feel like I'm a very conscious person. I'm very awake, very attuned, but yet there's still parts of me that are so blind, right, that I'm still learning. Oh, let's work with the voice this week. The voice is really, you know, going out on town, right? It's just going, going, going. So maybe what can we do with that? And so from my understanding, from what you just said is we need to be the observer. We want to obviously look at what it's telling usa, and then lean into that, which is the state shift, right? Like if it's if we feel the resistance, like sort of understand where the resistance is coming from, but really bring it on, move through it, because it's only on the other side of that. And they say this all the time. On the other side of our comfort zone is everything that we desire.
Sylvia: [00:33:19] Yeah, exactly.
Jeanne: [00:33:20] Would you say that's true?
Sylvia: [00:33:22] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I like what you said with the quote from Byron Katie. Yeah. If you argue with reality, you lose, but only 100% of the time. Yeah. That's like no use to do that. And I like also connecting Michael Singer to this again. Now what is reality? Reality is that what just happened, even if it's just a second ago, even if we are, I'm pausing, you know, so that's already in the past. I can't change what I just said.
Jeanne: [00:33:53] 100%.
Sylvia: [00:33:54] And yeah, and we know, but still. Oh, why did I say that? And what will people think of me? And I should have like, oh, I should have said this. And we can't change that anymore.
Jeanne: [00:34:04] The worst hangover, right?
Sylvia: [00:34:05] Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:34:07] So much time just worrying about all that stuff.
Sylvia: [00:34:09] Yeah. But also we're not going to the gym. For instance, why didn't I go to the gym and I should have gone there and, you know, and it's like the pain of regret of not going. Yeah. That's the point that I wanted to make before. Also weighs heavier than the pain of the resistance and then moving through that. So indeed, you win so much more than just, you know, okay, I went to the gym. No, you went through your resistance, you overcame your saboteur. You got physically just a little bit stronger again, you know, and you get confidence. And true confidence is something you get from by saying what you do and doing. As you have said, that's the only way to get. Yeah. Well, one of the main ways to. Yeah, yeah. Because. Because I can trust myself. Indeed. I'm saying that I will go to the gym tomorrow, 530. I'm there, which I actually am. And I'm going no matter what. That's who I want to be. Something I want to trust myself and not like, oh, look at me. You know, so other people can see that. No, it's because it's for myself, for my own confidence, because I also want to be the kind of coach who practices what she preaches. And I'm not perfect. Jeanne, just so you know, I mess up so many times and there might be a time that I oversleep and I don't go to the gym, but I always put full effort in it as much as I can because that's, that's how I feel at my best.
Jeanne: [00:35:36] It's so interesting because the inner critic, you know, you bring up something that I've always had trouble with, like, so being disciplined right around, especially in my recovery process, I've been very disciplined where in my formative life, I was not disciplined. So, you know, I work hard. That's a place that I can overstretch, there's no question. But part of it is because I'm really, truly excited about what I do. And I love learning. As you know, we can all be addicted to learning. And I really do love learning. But you know, where was I going with this? The point I was going is that when sometimes I work and I once early this year, I started the year off with influenza A, I don't think I've been sick since I was a child. So we're going like over 50, 60 years of not being having flu or colds. I'm really have a strong constitution. So when I was sick and I suddenly realized like, I really feel like hell, like the first day I try to pull it together because that's what I do. So I exercise the muscle of discipline in the wrong way, right? Like when I'm sick and I really should be resting. And then there's times where, you know, I should be giving myself some slack and, and say, it's okay to rest today. But it took me a while. I think I'm sort of the person If I don't have a fever and I can't get out of bed because I was that sick, then legitimately I can take the day off. So that comes from we can overcorrect too, I think, and that's what I've seen as a pattern of mine, is that I'm not giving myself the grace and space I need to sometimes self heal in a different way because I'm so scared it may turn into a lack of discipline or sloppiness, which I don't want to happen. And so I just treat myself like a workhorse, probably to my own detriment at times. So it was an interesting comparison. I just thought of when you brought that up.
Sylvia: [00:37:29] Yeah. And I find it very good that you are bringing this because, um, that that is also the truth for people. And it's also about being radically honest with yourself and what Brian Johnson from ah, the platform that we are both in heroic is also calling the device of deficiency and the device of excess. Am I saying that? Yes. Of doing something too much or too little. And you, if you are truly in being in self consciousness, you know where on which end of the spectrum you are right? Am I? Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. But that's, that's why you why we need to put awareness on that and being like, truly honest with your two. Which voice am I listening here? Is this my higher self or is this indeed my saboteur that says, yeah, yeah, but yeah, but you promised. Yeah. You have to go. You have to work and or. Yeah, indeed. Can I give myself a, heroes need to rest as well? So the grace of taking that step back, zooming out and checking in on what is the truth here? The radical truth, like, yeah, being honest. Yeah, this might be not today. And really seeing that as a, as an act of self-love to take that day off if you really need that. Yeah. I find that shell. Yeah, I find it also challenging. I'll be radically honest with you on that as well. You're like, oh, you know, because I think I can go on and on, but I need to be very deliberate on my. Yeah, exactly. On my self-care. Yeah. Superwoman needs rest, too.
Jeanne: [00:39:01] What's interesting, I used to pride myself on how much I could out like my outputs always been really good. So I used to pride myself on, oh, well, you know, machines on the assembly line, they get more rest than I do because, you know, like they at least they get an eight hour shift off, right. You know, and I was like, well, I don't know what I was trying to convince to myself that I was iron clad that that comes from that, you know, self-sufficiency that I riding solo. No one's got my back. I've got to do this all by myself. And so, you know, it takes some time to take, even though we've maybe taken some armor off, as Brene Brown would say, it takes time to really put it down. So I'm going to switch gears for a little bit, and I want you to tell me what you've noticed over the last ten years. What are some of the gifts of what I would call sobriety? But maybe you might not necessarily identify with that or some of the listeners. It could be. What are the gifts of your self-development journey, your personal inquiry journey, whatever it may be for you? What have you noticed and what have you gained?
Sylvia: [00:40:02] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So, um, first self-confidence because now I am that person that again does what she says instead of like, oh, I know I should be quitting alcohol. I was thinking about quitting alcohol for years and I grew up with an alcoholic mom. Uh, every year I had this, um, challenge for myself. Okay, I'm not going to drink for four months, but after those four months, I went fully loose again. And then I did the next year for five months. And I kept that up and, and again after five months fell back. And then the next year I did, uh, six months and I couldn't make it anymore. And then it's like, oh, it's this problem every year, and it's now at a certain a certain point. I thought in Austin, even I think one of the times we met like, okay, now it's done. I have to quit all together. It's also something that a part of me my shadow begged me to do. Sylvia, you can't be who you are if you don't, please do it for me. It's what she said to me during this breath session that we had, having self-confidence.
Sylvia: [00:41:06] Not the confidence that you get from having that drink. And then you feel like, oh, I feel a little bit, now the edges off. Now I can truly be myself and fully be okay with that. But also the ability of self-expression of, okay, this is who I am, this is what I stand for, and I'm okay with it. I am more then, you know, I, it's something that brought me self love because there was always this part of myself that was despising me for doing that. Who do you think you are telling other people what to do if you don't do it yourself? You know, I want to be the person that yeah, that practices what you preach. And it's not about perfection, but it was, it was yeah, it's integrity and it was in my way. And what also happened is that I actually, I thought always that alcohol was something also with my friends that was like sisterhood are together and drinking, you know, it's like, but, but I actually got deeper connected because it was from a place of, of, from, from the heart instead of like the drunken talk.
Jeanne: [00:42:10] Meaningful connection, right?
Sylvia: [00:42:12] Yes, yes. Yeah. So yeah, confidence, self-expression, meaningful connections. Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:42:19] So you bring up something really important. I just want to address it. When you talk about confidence in the voice in your head for many people. So I'm like you. For many people, we define problem drinking as people who physically drink too much. You put some alcohol in front of them, they're going to down the whole bottle and obliterated or that kind of drinker. And there is that kind of drinker, and that person would really look like an alcoholic. But then there is the other kind of drinker, and I call it they call it a 12 steps, um, the mental obsession. And I'm one of those people that the minute you put alcohol in front of me, the noise turns on. I can find peace without it. And I find that I have a good, strong mood without it, I definitely have more confidence. I more trustworthy with myself and with others. But once alcohol goes in, the noise goes up and the only person who knows you're struggling is you. Nobody else sees that. So they don't think you have a problem. And even though that you don't really exhibit like a hardcore alcoholic, what you do have is you really are struggling with your own internal self. And it's almost like you're beating yourself up constantly because every day you say you're going to do this, and every day you say you're going to do something different, which is really where the conversation opened up. At the beginning of the conversation when we started talking about state shift, right?
Jeanne: [00:43:50] So I just really, and this is what they call what is called gray area drinking, where most of the normal population sit. It's habitual because it is addictive, which is why people do it every week. By the time the next week rolls around, the alcohol has left their system and they want more. It's also something that only you are going to know how bad it is, not necessarily other people. They go, come on, what's wrong with you? Why don't you have one, have one? But you know, you don't really sign up to sort of destroy yourself internally, right? And so there's a good reason why some of us choose not to. And it brings to the point that we don't have to go all the way down now in order to really stop a habit that really isn't serving us well. And so for those of you who struggle or think that maybe you have a problem if what the old saying is if you spend too much time in your head thinking about it, you may just want to do your own science experiment and, you know, run a hypothesis and see what happens if you stop for a month or so, you know, because you may find that you have way more peace than if you keep doing what you're doing. And that's not saying that one should. It's just really just be more curious about what's true for you. Yeah.
Sylvia: [00:45:06] Yeah. That's beautiful.
Jeanne: [00:45:07] So one of the questions I asked every single one of my guests is, what do you do to stay naturally high?
Sylvia: [00:45:15] Uh, um, I'm nature is very helpful to me. Going in nature. Yeah. And consciously through nature. And I find that very challenging as I am also a lover of learning. But that's also something you can be addicted to, you know, to go without any devices, into the park, into the forest and really, um, become as present as you can in the moment. And that's when you, and when you, when you can stop thinking and just enjoying the present moment and hear the birds and, and see the flowers and the plants and the trees. And that's where I am really smelling the forest is where I can be really naturally high. So I'm also aiming at moving myself close to a forest because I want more of that. I find that very helpful. Being more present is, yeah, what I'm aiming for.
Jeanne: [00:46:09] That's something I really want more than anything.
Sylvia: [00:46:12] Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:46:13] So. So I want to thank you for being with us today. I hope that you guys have learned a lot. Definitely, we will post Sylvia's, all her links to the cards, to her website, etc. but for just a quick reference, where can people find you? Sylvia? Yeah.
Sylvia: [00:46:32] Uh, I'm on the socials. Linkedin. I love to connect with people. Uh, Instagram is where I'm also present. I'm, uh, posting, uh, like a peek in my week every week that I call that. So that's a little bit of, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's how what my weeks look like. People, uh, yeah, seem to find it interesting. Of course, on my website, sylviaholtslag.nl. Uh, yeah, I'm very happy if people feel inspired by what we spoke about today. I'm so happy about, um, free sessions. You can just book a session on my website. I would love to connect with people because it's, I feel it as my mission to serve, help people with, uh, yeah, with what I've learned and what I'm still experiencing in this moment. So, uh, yeah, so very welcome. Uh, yeah, to, uh, to meet up.
Jeanne: [00:47:21] Okay. So we'll make sure all those links are posted for you guys. So thank you again, Sylvia. So until next time, how are you going to stay naturally high? Thank you for joining me for this episode of Naturally High. If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or reach out to me through the links in the show notes. Together, we're changing the way the world approaches mental health, addiction, and trauma. Remember to like, subscribe and leave a rating for Naturally High on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode. For more inspiration and resources, follow me on Instagram at the recovery underscore concierge or visit the recovery concierge.com. Stay empowered, keep rising, and I'll see you in the next episode.
Sylvia: [00:01:36] Thank you. And thank you for that beautiful introduction, Jeanne. Yes. So the state shift method is inspired by the work of Phil Stutz, Barry Michels, well, all the names that you just said, and this is about getting from insight to action. I used to have also a problem with addiction to say it like that, what society would call normal, but became for me, bad habits that really got in the way of being the person who I am without all the needing all the things from the outside world. And when I discovered the tools by Phil Stutz, I wished that I had what I have created now, and without wanting to sound arrogant. But I'm so glad that I could make this now to help people with to do the work daily. Because knowing that you need to change something is a big difference with actually also doing it, integrating it in your life. And that is what the state shift method helps people with. So let's dive in and maybe you would like to have a demonstration on what the state method is. Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:02:36] Before we go, can I just mention something? But I absolutely am ready to go. And I have no idea what she's going to ask me or what my problem is or what I'm going to bring forward. So I just want everybody to know this is a complete spontaneous accountability of whatever's going to come forward. Yeah. But you talked about something interesting. So most of our listeners are in some sort of recovery, whether it's recovery from being human, whether it's recovery from addiction, whether it's recovery from their own trauma, self-healing journey, whatever it may be. You had a moment of clarity where you were, what looked like just a normal drinker. And they call that gray drinking, which is like two thirds of the population. Actually, more than two thirds of the population have habitual, what we call habitual gray drinking, where they just really they know it kind of doesn't, you know, it kind of robs something from them, but they don't really see it as a problem because everybody around them is doing it and everybody is high functioning and holding down jobs, families, whatever. But you had this moment of clarity and then you suddenly you went into a complete, I guess, remission, which is almost like spontaneous, you know, recovery without any treatment. Because if you had come to me and said, hey, you know what, I think I have a drinking problem or anyone for that matter, a lot of people would. Maybe not me because I'm much more liberal thinker, but most people would say, you think you need this, you need to go to a 12 step group. You need to go to treatment, you need to go to a therapist, you need to do this. People would have given you a myriad of solutions. And yet you found what I call spontaneous recovery all by yourself. So do you just want to share that insight before we go into that demo, if you don't mind, please.
Sylvia: [00:04:15] Yeah. Yes. Of course. Yeah. It was a moment when I was in a traffic jam. You are recalling that moment, right? What I told you about. Yeah, that I that I saw myself from a bird's eye perspective. It was it was hot, I was hungover, I was listening to the news. I had a headache. I was like tired. I was feeling all these feelings and, and I was staying in, standing in these kind of traffic jams almost daily. But this was the one moment that I just was so fed up with myself. I saw myself from a bird's eye perspective, and I was thinking like, where is that radiant woman with hopes and dreams for her life that I once had. At that point, I had like. Apart from all the studies that I've done, but also like a dozen of unfinished projects on the shelf because I was always too tired, I really wanted to make something out of my life. And that's the moment that I decided, okay, let's start with listening to something else than the news, because I was listening to that from early morning to late evening. I needed to, I needed to follow everything. And once I could, I drove off the highway, lit up a smoke. Another addiction. I also was addicted to shopping, to scrolling, Netflixing you know, you can name it. I had it and people would call it normal. But at that moment I thought I listened to something else. And I found this book app.
Sylvia: [00:05:38] And in the book that I started to listen, um, they were mentioning the tools from Phil Stutz. And I had read like you as well. I was also a self-development junkie. That's also an addiction, but nothing really resonated for me until this book came out of my speaker, and it was like an angel choir started to sing. It was just it struck me like, this is about me. This is you. Yeah, it's really stopped me. And I started listening like all the time because this was something that was actually practical. It was something that I could apply. And I started right away doing it, that the reversal of desire is one of the tools. And that means that you turn around what you what you want. And mostly when it comes to doing something difficult, that's something like, oh no, that's too difficult. I can't do that. That's too hard. If you reverse your desire to wanting to do the difficult things, that's actually where you overcome yourself because we know we need to do something. But there's always this gap, the gap from where you are to where you want to be. If there is no bridge, you fall. And that's what the tools are. And now what I also have created with my state shift method, it's the bridge to get there. It helps you to overcome your inner saboteur, your part X as Phil Stutz, um, brilliant psychologist from LA would call it, who is also the author of The Tools, also known from the Netflix documentary Stutz.
Sylvia: [00:07:09] If people are interested in more information about this. And um, he created Tools to, to, to get out of our heads because we are overthinking all the time. We are thinking a lot about what we should be doing, what we are not taking action. And that was the moment where it all started for me to, to quit, to let go of the things that were not serving me. And, and to start with things, uh, and, and also finish things that were important. So that's when I suddenly could finish books when I suddenly had the guts to quit my, um, well-paid but, but not fulfilling job and start my own coaching practice where I could step up and start my my tool school to coach other coaches and do it another round and now creating the stage shift method. And normally if I wouldn't have found the tools and later also heroic and Michael Singer's work, I would still be, I think, um, pretty much in that same place. And worse, because as you get older, it gets worse and would never have had done all these things. But now there's this life force flowing, um, that I that is just unstoppable. And no, it's not easy. And yes, I fall down like regularly, but I always get back up because I know that it's not in how often you fall, but in how often you stand up again.
Jeanne: [00:08:33] Absolutely.
Sylvia: [00:08:34] And that's a long answer to your question. I'm sorry.
Jeanne: [00:08:37] I just want to break it down for people because really, you know, um, there's so much richness here and it's about the bridge that gets us from knowing to doing right, because we're all not short on information. I always say that, but we're short on implementation. We know what we should do, whether it's I need to not eat that chocolate cake or stop drinking or get into action around, you know, I'm ready enough right around whatever it is we do, but yet we are stuck. So having a practical application, whatever that tool is for a person in those more moments, rather than abort it entirely. And the other thing that you brought up is that, and I find this with myself and I've looked at it, we are wired for comfort as humans. We will repel discomfort in terms of our memory. Our memory is select in the same way that we kind of remember all the terrible things, but we have trouble recalling those good moments because we're just wired that way. And so to lean into something, um, there's parts of me that can do that really, really well. But I think those parts of me that are still stuck in that respect, I can lean into discomfort because maybe if it has something to do with my, I don't know, maybe integrity goals, some things I do incredibly well and I'm super disciplined, but there's some things that I think it's the part X for me that goes, hold on a second.
Jeanne: [00:10:05] Who do you think you are? You know, you're this isn't completely yours. Like we're really whatever we're teaching, we're handing down from our teachers before us for every single one of us on this earth. Right? Our teachers before us led the way, and they paved the way for us. And then there was people who we will pass on our knowledge and teachings to them, and they will carry it forward, and so on and so on. So I used to get stuck in, well, it's not 100% mine. So not talking about plagiarism, but I used to get stuck on the perfect way to, you know, say something, do something, show something, teach something that I end up spinning around doing nothing. So maybe that's a good place for us to do a demo or about another subject altogether. But we talked about what, you know, the state shift looks like in at practical application.
Sylvia: [00:10:55] Yes. Yes, indeed. Yeah. So, so let's just dive in. Uh, the state shift method contains three steps. And, and that's always determining, uh, your state. So what's the state that you are in? Um, and then we make the shift that would be doing the tool. And then we take a step, we take even the smallest step, even the smaller the better, because that's easier to repeat. So we take the smallest action from the inside and the change in our inner state that we, we can do. So what I can do is, um, just blindly draw a card for you, Jeanne. I always like to do that because I believe that the universe always brings, uh, what's needed. And also taking into account, uh, the audience that is listening that also for you if you are listening, um, this is um, this is the card that you, uh, need.
Jeanne: [00:11:46] So, I want to do something. Here's my deck. I don't know if you can see us, but we're going to put the link for the card deck in the show notes. But they are beautiful. They are so well done. They are so fun. And I'm just going to show you like some of them, they're just like so fun and really relatable, so be sure to check them out. Anyway. Thank you.
Sylvia: [00:12:06] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, let's jump in. So what I'm doing is I'm putting energy on it and I'm just shuffling the cards and I will see what the universe brings us. And it might be from a card falling out. That's mostly how I do it, but it can also be like, okay, I feel I need to take this one well. And this is very interesting that we are getting this card because we were just speaking about, uh, Part X, our inner saboteur. I call it the saboteur. That's the voice in your head that always keeps us stuck. Because the thing is, um, we have trained ourselves to listen to that voice, right? Yeah, yeah, it's always there. But also we are listening. That's that's the thing. When we were younger. If you are in a. Yeah, I have to say, also add to that, hey, if you have a healthy childhood, I would say, you know, it comes.
Jeanne: [00:12:56] Mine hasn't been when people know.
Sylvia: [00:12:58] Well, mine, mine also know mine neither. Um, but there was a part in my childhood that I wasn't as influenced by my saboteur. It came later on for me that I really felt stuck, like all the time. Like it was talking like, you are not good enough and who do you think you are? That was something that came on repeat on a little bit later age. So this is about the saboteur and taking action.
Jeanne: [00:13:23] Oh my goodness. Like you could have created the perfect, I'm so I'm saying this and this is completely spontaneous. And I cannot believe out of all the cards in the deck, this is the most appropriate because this is where I get stuck the most. I get stuck in it being perfect, which is totally unachievable. I know that intellectually, but somehow that's what paralyzes me because I've been told I'm not good enough all my life. So I play into that narrative. So let's go.
Sylvia: [00:13:51] Yeah. Let's go. So I invite you if you are also listeners, if you are not driving or in traffic to close your eyes and first really connect to yourself and think about where you are stuck on where and what's the thing that's getting in your way. We all have our things. It can be on. It can be on nutrition. It can also be on alcohol. It can be on a negative thinking or anxiety. What keeps you stuck on starting that project? Whatever the thing is, just take it in your mind and have it in your mind and think about the smallest action that you can take to do it. And I would like you to feel the resistance that you have against it. Feel the resistance. Don't walk away from it. Just feel it. Check in where you feel it. And I would like you to reframe the resistance as something that has meaning. If there would be no resistance to do it unless it's very unhealthy for you, if there wouldn't be no resistance, it would have no meaning. So reframe that. Imagine that you are putting a frame around that fear, the thing that you need to do. See that in like this, this cookie, this, we call this also the death cookie, and that you put all that fear in that cookie and you eat it.
Sylvia: [00:15:17] You have it as breakfast, you eat it as fuel and we call that has swallowed the saboteur. You eat your demons. You have the death cookie, as Phil states would say, and the saboteur you Swallow will give you its power. And now feel how you are getting all that strength that see yourself doing it, taking that smallest action and see yourself on the other side. That's what what the meaning is of eating the death cookie, of swallowing the saboteur. I'm just doing it. I feel the fear and I eat it and I do it anyway. And then you feel that energy flowing through your whole system. And now you open up your eyes. And as soon as this podcast is done, you are going to do it. And this is the card. Yes. Yeah. So this is the card, uh, for the people who are looking and seeing the action. Yes. Follow the seeing the action, reframing it, literally eating the pain from it, and then, uh, standing for yourself, like, okay, the saboteur you swallow will give you its power.
Jeanne: [00:16:20] So it's interesting because for a period of time now, I've been witnessing myself because I'm good at witnessing, because I'm conscious and I've been witnessing myself being resistant about a lot of things, whether it's exercise, whether it's starting something, whether it's finishing something, and I'm going like, what is going on, girl? Like, really, what is going on? And obviously, if you take time to literally listen to yourself natter, I call it nattering. Like, you know, just going on and on and on. And we know that we have 50 to 70,000 thoughts a day. So that's a lot of thoughts that are going through and being really unfiltered in terms of how they can subtly and overtly influence your life, if you think about it. So for me, my resistance has really been like, why are you resisting? Like, like what is the value of resistance? And okay, obviously, so I'm scared. Maybe I'm scared of something or being, I think for me, with a saboteur, for me, it's about being wrong. And it sounds so simple. Like, okay, we all make mistakes, we're human. And I, and I know that intellectually, but when you're a child and you're vulnerable and you were told all the time that you're doing it wrong, it really I'm getting emotional speaking about it, but it really kind of makes you break in your tracks.
Jeanne: [00:17:47] It just like put the brakes on because if you, if you're not wrong and you play it safe, then everything will be okay. But in the meantime, if you play it so safe, you can't really have the beauty of what's on the other side of that either. So that for me is what came out of that reading was really that I don't want to be wrong, even though this is not an intellectual pursuit that we're talking about. It's a deeply emotional. And so therefore, I just don't execute in certain areas where it feels unsafe, where I can be judged, for example. And even a podcast is a brazen move. I'm pretty comfortable here, and I recognize that I may not be for everybody, but for the most part, I can do this. But maybe writing a book I can't do. Or maybe teaching I can't do. So there's other parts. That's where the practice, I think comes in. Like, we're never exonerated. We're never there yet. We're always in practice, which is what a yoga practice is. A daily practice is we get a daily reprieve. That's what 12 steps would say from being exonerated from our next drink. And then we start again. And on and on we go.
Sylvia: [00:18:57] Yeah, yeah. And can I offer you something on what you are experiencing in those moments? Because there is also how would you say I felt unsafe as a child and sorry, what was the phrase that you, uh.
Jeanne: [00:19:08] Felt really criticized, i never got it right. I could never do anything right. I always got it wrong. Wrong was the like, the word that I heard most frequently. So even the language was not communicated in a way that was tender. It was very judgmental.
Sylvia: [00:19:24] Yeah, yeah. So I would go to that little girl. Mhm. In those moments that whatever happens, that you won't reject her, that you just close your eyes and you see your little Jeanne in those moments and that you connect to her. I see you, I acknowledge you, and whatever happens here, I'm putting myself out there. And even if it goes wrong, if I mess it up, it will never be your fault. I will still love you. I will not reject you. You are a part of me and you matter. You are my number one.
Jeanne: [00:20:01] That's the work. The part that feels like you're deserving. I guess you're deserving of the grace, right? Because as a child you felt like you weren't. You felt like you were really wrong because that way then your family or your caregivers could be right because knowing that they were wrong, which we don't know at that age. We only know that later on would be too painful. So we turned the war on ourselves. And that's where people, I think, get stuck, not recognizing that it really has nothing to do about them. It was really about these beautiful, as I say, our spiritual curriculum that we are given to evolve to be our highest self.
Sylvia: [00:20:43] Yes. Yeah. But that's the message we got. And the problem is that even at 40, 50, 60, 70 plus years old, we still have that same message within us. I'm not deserving. I'm not worthy. And that's something that, of course it, it happened in our childhood, but we are still keeping that within us. And that is our responsibility to, to connect, to reconnect to that part is also, by the way, a card in the deck to reconnect to that part of ourselves. Um, and because it is, you know, why wouldn't you be worthy? You know, it's, it's something that other people made you feel, even if it were your case, caretakers or a teacher or a friend or whatever. But we are holding on to that. We are keeping that belief within us. And it influences still at a higher age. Uh, our whole life.
Jeanne: [00:21:34] Well, it's interesting because the more conscious you become, the more awake you are in your life, the more you recognize how much you don't know. Right? It's like it's.
Sylvia: [00:21:44] The more you know, the less you know. Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:21:46] Ignorance is bliss. Like could I. Now you understand why people who don't really care are sort of in that zone. Because they really don't know what they don't know. Right? Yes. And so for me, it's when I listen, like I was listening to you as I was going to exercise earlier today. Listen to her in my car. And I'm in one of her programs. And I was listening to a module on it. And I'm thinking to myself, I don't know how often I listen to my voice. I'm really good at witnessing. I can see myself much better than listen to myself, which is an interesting fact. I don't know why I can visually see myself outside of myself, but the listening is something I've never. It's like that background radio noise, which I call it frequency. You call it Shit FM, which is beautiful. But it's like that nattering. I don't notice as much. And I'm really awake now to that voice, which is giving me another dimension to sort of. So this is why. Oh yeah, I wasn't really paying attention to her. Like she's just nonstop brutal going, right? Like, I knew I had an inner critic, but I didn't really know that that voice was sort of playing 24 over seven. Right? I was just looking at myself in certain actions going, wow, interesting. And like, you know, more curious, like why you're doing that or not doing something, but not as judgmental, but the voice is brutal. So what are some of the suggestions that you can offer listeners in, I guess, befriending that voice, starting to get more comfortable with the voice, rather than going straight to that inner critic and berating it because it can be harsh at times.
Sylvia: [00:23:28] Yes. Well, um, it depends on which voice you are talking about. So what I, what I believe and this might take on, ah, the psyche is that we contain multitudes. We have many parts. So we have the authentic self, the higher self or whatever you want to call that. And we have the part X aka the saboteur voice. But and we have most people have a busload full of shadows on different parts. So yeah, yeah, indeed. And, but the saboteur, um, yeah, is, is the negative voice. And you can't befriend that voice because it's the negative energy that is always within us. It's every force has a counter force. So we have life force. And the counter force would be our saboteur. And the saboteur always wants to keep you stuck. So what would that be helpful is to catch your saboteur, to label the saboteur. And I always say put a stamp on it. Every time you have a negative thought about yourself or the world, that would be your saboteur. And it's very interesting. It's the first thing that I teach people when I coach them. Start, you know, jotting down how do you call it just a stripe for every moment that it's attacking you?
Jeanne: [00:24:42] Yeah. Like I noticed like when you're, when you're offended by something or you're not liking something like.
Sylvia: [00:24:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeanne: [00:24:49] Well, I have this thing going on with exercise. I'm really getting good results and yet I'm resisting it. I don't even know what it's about. Like, I really don't like it, but I'm thinking like, you're going to go, so what's the point? Right?
Sylvia: [00:25:00] Yeah. But you know, it works. Yeah. It's noticing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And labeling it.
Jeanne: [00:25:06] Easy, right. For myself or probably for my trainer.
Sylvia: [00:25:10] Yeah. But that's, that's the the follow up stuff, but the first moment is noticing when it's when it starts to complain, you know? And if I let it, it starts with, hey, it's raining outside. Oh, my parking spot is busy. I have to make breakfast for my kid and I don't have time or I have so many clients, you know, when I have time for myself and and I'm too fat and this is not good. And it's like, uh, like 24 over seven, like you said. So it's very interesting to have like a notebook paper and a pen and paper with you all the time, every time, time is attacking you. And I guarantee you with 1.5 hour, you go nuts. But that's when you really realize, okay, this is a part of me. This is not the whole me. And what you then do is, okay, you can put it outside of you like, okay, have it in front of you. You can, you can even form an image of your saboteur. And for me, it would like be a little bit of a devilish figure of myself. I it's like the evil version of myself, like, uh, Mr. Hyde, but then in a female version like, I got you, you know, I'm your whine, witch, the bitch, that's all it is always complaining, you know? And you know, I'm there with long nails. But if you have it inside, if you can make an image from an image from it.
Jeanne: [00:26:25] I have an image. Mine's Cruella de Vil. Oh, cool. Okay. She's brutal. She was a wicked witch.
Sylvia: [00:26:32] Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah. And if you take that moment to close your eyes and to see her and to put, like this spotlight on her or on him, uh, it depends on what image you have. It can't attack you if you put consciousness on it. And that's such a simple tool, state shift, whatever you want to call it to do, you know, because if you put consciousness, the thing is it attacks you from the unconscious. It attacks you when you are unaware. Yeah. And what it wants to let you believe that it is you who's doing the complaining. It is you who's having the resistance. And it's not. That's the it's biggest lie. It's just a part of you because there's also a big part of you which people also, we all recognize that I want this beautiful life for myself. I want to be the person who is like, uh, joyful, happy that, that enjoys life, that is, that is present, that, that, where the days have meaning. But the thing is, we have trained ourselves and not on purpose, but we are listening to that voice and we think we are it that it's the full self and it's just a part of us. And when you catch it in the act like I've got you, you can make a different decision. And that's A) not to listen to it. And that's why, um, I changed your behavior and your feeling will follow will help because as soon as you start listening to resistance, I recognize, you know, it's not that I like to work out, but if I am listening, like, okay, I have an planning, like, okay, I go work out six in the morning or seven, whatever.
Sylvia: [00:28:09] Um, and I say that to myself, once the alarm clock goes, it's like, uh, I don't want to go. If I start listening to that, you know, it's, I'll stay down. No, the first thing that I'm not listening, like go, go, go, go as soon as I can. Yeah. And the other, on the other hand, also, if I need to, I do that state shift like, okay, bring it on. Let's go. You know, it's, I'm putting myself in. There's a, there's a card for that also to, to, to get through the wall. I call it the hammer that you form that sledge hammer from yourself going through the wall of resistance being catapulted on the other side. And I'm doing it. Nothing will stop me, I am unstoppable. And if you keep repeating that, because the resistance way is our six lane highway. We know it. It drives easy. There's no other traffic. But this is like the new bumpy sandy road that we would normally avoid. And that's the resistance. That's the pain avoidance. And we have to go there to make it our new highway. And that's something you can train. And that's what we do with the. Yeah. With this or.
Jeanne: [00:29:14] Any other, if you think of yeah, you're building new neural pathways. Right.
Sylvia: [00:29:18] Exactly.
Jeanne: [00:29:19] And so, so instead of like repeating old behaviors, um, you're learning to exercise that muscle with the new behavior, right? Like, so if I'm going to exercise, I think that's where I'm going to start is with obviously the perfectionist piece I'm going to work on. But I think for me, it's around, okay, if you're going to do this, just do it.
Sylvia: [00:29:38] Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:29:39] Pretend you like it. Like don't even entertain that voice.
Sylvia: [00:29:42] Yeah, indeed. Don't even entertain that voice. Don't listen to it. Yeah. Because it's also be the person. What would the person do, uh, that you aspire to be, that you want to be and you are already it. It's not about becoming someone new. It's about removing what is in the way to be your most authentic and full self.
Jeanne: [00:30:06] And be the person you want to embody.
Sylvia: [00:30:08] Yeah, you are already dead, but but you are just not doing the things and you have trained yourself on different beliefs. And if you remove those beliefs, it's like you're not worthy. If we remove that belief of you are not worthy, you are worthy. If we work on okay, I work on letting go of resistance, but to surrendering like, okay, I suck it up. It is difficult, it is challenging, but you know, I think I'm worthy of being fit. I'm worthy of taking care of my physical body. And it takes doing the hard stuff. And why is there a resistance? Because it has meaning. If my part X or saboteur is blathering that loud to me, this must be very important. And what I see it as, and this is also a tip to see it as a reverse indicator. And the harder something is, the more value, the more growth there is. And you can say to yourself, aha, I just got a big fish. Let's take that in. I do it on purpose to mess up my saboteur. If it says like when I'm under the shower, I do cold showers. Like, oh, no, not today. No, it's hot and you have your period. And also, oh, you also have to take the cold shower. That's horrible. Yeah. Cold. No, shut up. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And that's, you know, that's where you overcome that part, overcome resistance. And you grow from that because, you know, if you do all these small things on a day instead of not doing them, the pain in the moment is less than the suffering later added the weight of the pain. Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:31:40] Yeah. There's no question the suffering is eternal. It feels eternal anyway. Goes on and on and on. Where the resistance is a very shorter period of time, unless you make yourself miserable. One of the most impressive quotes that has stuck with me, one of my mantras in life was by Byron Katie and basically what it is, was do not argue with reality.
Sylvia: [00:32:03] Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:32:04] And we do that all the time. Every single one of us. We want to bend our external world rather than take the easier route, which is to look at what we can control, which is internal and is mind boggling that we do that, number one. And it's mind boggling how we can be feel so awake in so many aspects of our life, but yet still so far behind. Like for me saying, I feel like I'm a very conscious person. I'm very awake, very attuned, but yet there's still parts of me that are so blind, right, that I'm still learning. Oh, let's work with the voice this week. The voice is really, you know, going out on town, right? It's just going, going, going. So maybe what can we do with that? And so from my understanding, from what you just said is we need to be the observer. We want to obviously look at what it's telling usa, and then lean into that, which is the state shift, right? Like if it's if we feel the resistance, like sort of understand where the resistance is coming from, but really bring it on, move through it, because it's only on the other side of that. And they say this all the time. On the other side of our comfort zone is everything that we desire.
Sylvia: [00:33:19] Yeah, exactly.
Jeanne: [00:33:20] Would you say that's true?
Sylvia: [00:33:22] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I like what you said with the quote from Byron Katie. Yeah. If you argue with reality, you lose, but only 100% of the time. Yeah. That's like no use to do that. And I like also connecting Michael Singer to this again. Now what is reality? Reality is that what just happened, even if it's just a second ago, even if we are, I'm pausing, you know, so that's already in the past. I can't change what I just said.
Jeanne: [00:33:53] 100%.
Sylvia: [00:33:54] And yeah, and we know, but still. Oh, why did I say that? And what will people think of me? And I should have like, oh, I should have said this. And we can't change that anymore.
Jeanne: [00:34:04] The worst hangover, right?
Sylvia: [00:34:05] Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:34:07] So much time just worrying about all that stuff.
Sylvia: [00:34:09] Yeah. But also we're not going to the gym. For instance, why didn't I go to the gym and I should have gone there and, you know, and it's like the pain of regret of not going. Yeah. That's the point that I wanted to make before. Also weighs heavier than the pain of the resistance and then moving through that. So indeed, you win so much more than just, you know, okay, I went to the gym. No, you went through your resistance, you overcame your saboteur. You got physically just a little bit stronger again, you know, and you get confidence. And true confidence is something you get from by saying what you do and doing. As you have said, that's the only way to get. Yeah. Well, one of the main ways to. Yeah, yeah. Because. Because I can trust myself. Indeed. I'm saying that I will go to the gym tomorrow, 530. I'm there, which I actually am. And I'm going no matter what. That's who I want to be. Something I want to trust myself and not like, oh, look at me. You know, so other people can see that. No, it's because it's for myself, for my own confidence, because I also want to be the kind of coach who practices what she preaches. And I'm not perfect. Jeanne, just so you know, I mess up so many times and there might be a time that I oversleep and I don't go to the gym, but I always put full effort in it as much as I can because that's, that's how I feel at my best.
Jeanne: [00:35:36] It's so interesting because the inner critic, you know, you bring up something that I've always had trouble with, like, so being disciplined right around, especially in my recovery process, I've been very disciplined where in my formative life, I was not disciplined. So, you know, I work hard. That's a place that I can overstretch, there's no question. But part of it is because I'm really, truly excited about what I do. And I love learning. As you know, we can all be addicted to learning. And I really do love learning. But you know, where was I going with this? The point I was going is that when sometimes I work and I once early this year, I started the year off with influenza A, I don't think I've been sick since I was a child. So we're going like over 50, 60 years of not being having flu or colds. I'm really have a strong constitution. So when I was sick and I suddenly realized like, I really feel like hell, like the first day I try to pull it together because that's what I do. So I exercise the muscle of discipline in the wrong way, right? Like when I'm sick and I really should be resting. And then there's times where, you know, I should be giving myself some slack and, and say, it's okay to rest today. But it took me a while. I think I'm sort of the person If I don't have a fever and I can't get out of bed because I was that sick, then legitimately I can take the day off. So that comes from we can overcorrect too, I think, and that's what I've seen as a pattern of mine, is that I'm not giving myself the grace and space I need to sometimes self heal in a different way because I'm so scared it may turn into a lack of discipline or sloppiness, which I don't want to happen. And so I just treat myself like a workhorse, probably to my own detriment at times. So it was an interesting comparison. I just thought of when you brought that up.
Sylvia: [00:37:29] Yeah. And I find it very good that you are bringing this because, um, that that is also the truth for people. And it's also about being radically honest with yourself and what Brian Johnson from ah, the platform that we are both in heroic is also calling the device of deficiency and the device of excess. Am I saying that? Yes. Of doing something too much or too little. And you, if you are truly in being in self consciousness, you know where on which end of the spectrum you are right? Am I? Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. But that's, that's why you why we need to put awareness on that and being like, truly honest with your two. Which voice am I listening here? Is this my higher self or is this indeed my saboteur that says, yeah, yeah, but yeah, but you promised. Yeah. You have to go. You have to work and or. Yeah, indeed. Can I give myself a, heroes need to rest as well? So the grace of taking that step back, zooming out and checking in on what is the truth here? The radical truth, like, yeah, being honest. Yeah, this might be not today. And really seeing that as a, as an act of self-love to take that day off if you really need that. Yeah. I find that shell. Yeah, I find it also challenging. I'll be radically honest with you on that as well. You're like, oh, you know, because I think I can go on and on, but I need to be very deliberate on my. Yeah, exactly. On my self-care. Yeah. Superwoman needs rest, too.
Jeanne: [00:39:01] What's interesting, I used to pride myself on how much I could out like my outputs always been really good. So I used to pride myself on, oh, well, you know, machines on the assembly line, they get more rest than I do because, you know, like they at least they get an eight hour shift off, right. You know, and I was like, well, I don't know what I was trying to convince to myself that I was iron clad that that comes from that, you know, self-sufficiency that I riding solo. No one's got my back. I've got to do this all by myself. And so, you know, it takes some time to take, even though we've maybe taken some armor off, as Brene Brown would say, it takes time to really put it down. So I'm going to switch gears for a little bit, and I want you to tell me what you've noticed over the last ten years. What are some of the gifts of what I would call sobriety? But maybe you might not necessarily identify with that or some of the listeners. It could be. What are the gifts of your self-development journey, your personal inquiry journey, whatever it may be for you? What have you noticed and what have you gained?
Sylvia: [00:40:02] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So, um, first self-confidence because now I am that person that again does what she says instead of like, oh, I know I should be quitting alcohol. I was thinking about quitting alcohol for years and I grew up with an alcoholic mom. Uh, every year I had this, um, challenge for myself. Okay, I'm not going to drink for four months, but after those four months, I went fully loose again. And then I did the next year for five months. And I kept that up and, and again after five months fell back. And then the next year I did, uh, six months and I couldn't make it anymore. And then it's like, oh, it's this problem every year, and it's now at a certain a certain point. I thought in Austin, even I think one of the times we met like, okay, now it's done. I have to quit all together. It's also something that a part of me my shadow begged me to do. Sylvia, you can't be who you are if you don't, please do it for me. It's what she said to me during this breath session that we had, having self-confidence.
Sylvia: [00:41:06] Not the confidence that you get from having that drink. And then you feel like, oh, I feel a little bit, now the edges off. Now I can truly be myself and fully be okay with that. But also the ability of self-expression of, okay, this is who I am, this is what I stand for, and I'm okay with it. I am more then, you know, I, it's something that brought me self love because there was always this part of myself that was despising me for doing that. Who do you think you are telling other people what to do if you don't do it yourself? You know, I want to be the person that yeah, that practices what you preach. And it's not about perfection, but it was, it was yeah, it's integrity and it was in my way. And what also happened is that I actually, I thought always that alcohol was something also with my friends that was like sisterhood are together and drinking, you know, it's like, but, but I actually got deeper connected because it was from a place of, of, from, from the heart instead of like the drunken talk.
Jeanne: [00:42:10] Meaningful connection, right?
Sylvia: [00:42:12] Yes, yes. Yeah. So yeah, confidence, self-expression, meaningful connections. Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:42:19] So you bring up something really important. I just want to address it. When you talk about confidence in the voice in your head for many people. So I'm like you. For many people, we define problem drinking as people who physically drink too much. You put some alcohol in front of them, they're going to down the whole bottle and obliterated or that kind of drinker. And there is that kind of drinker, and that person would really look like an alcoholic. But then there is the other kind of drinker, and I call it they call it a 12 steps, um, the mental obsession. And I'm one of those people that the minute you put alcohol in front of me, the noise turns on. I can find peace without it. And I find that I have a good, strong mood without it, I definitely have more confidence. I more trustworthy with myself and with others. But once alcohol goes in, the noise goes up and the only person who knows you're struggling is you. Nobody else sees that. So they don't think you have a problem. And even though that you don't really exhibit like a hardcore alcoholic, what you do have is you really are struggling with your own internal self. And it's almost like you're beating yourself up constantly because every day you say you're going to do this, and every day you say you're going to do something different, which is really where the conversation opened up. At the beginning of the conversation when we started talking about state shift, right?
Jeanne: [00:43:50] So I just really, and this is what they call what is called gray area drinking, where most of the normal population sit. It's habitual because it is addictive, which is why people do it every week. By the time the next week rolls around, the alcohol has left their system and they want more. It's also something that only you are going to know how bad it is, not necessarily other people. They go, come on, what's wrong with you? Why don't you have one, have one? But you know, you don't really sign up to sort of destroy yourself internally, right? And so there's a good reason why some of us choose not to. And it brings to the point that we don't have to go all the way down now in order to really stop a habit that really isn't serving us well. And so for those of you who struggle or think that maybe you have a problem if what the old saying is if you spend too much time in your head thinking about it, you may just want to do your own science experiment and, you know, run a hypothesis and see what happens if you stop for a month or so, you know, because you may find that you have way more peace than if you keep doing what you're doing. And that's not saying that one should. It's just really just be more curious about what's true for you. Yeah.
Sylvia: [00:45:06] Yeah. That's beautiful.
Jeanne: [00:45:07] So one of the questions I asked every single one of my guests is, what do you do to stay naturally high?
Sylvia: [00:45:15] Uh, um, I'm nature is very helpful to me. Going in nature. Yeah. And consciously through nature. And I find that very challenging as I am also a lover of learning. But that's also something you can be addicted to, you know, to go without any devices, into the park, into the forest and really, um, become as present as you can in the moment. And that's when you, and when you, when you can stop thinking and just enjoying the present moment and hear the birds and, and see the flowers and the plants and the trees. And that's where I am really smelling the forest is where I can be really naturally high. So I'm also aiming at moving myself close to a forest because I want more of that. I find that very helpful. Being more present is, yeah, what I'm aiming for.
Jeanne: [00:46:09] That's something I really want more than anything.
Sylvia: [00:46:12] Yeah.
Jeanne: [00:46:13] So. So I want to thank you for being with us today. I hope that you guys have learned a lot. Definitely, we will post Sylvia's, all her links to the cards, to her website, etc. but for just a quick reference, where can people find you? Sylvia? Yeah.
Sylvia: [00:46:32] Uh, I'm on the socials. Linkedin. I love to connect with people. Uh, Instagram is where I'm also present. I'm, uh, posting, uh, like a peek in my week every week that I call that. So that's a little bit of, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's how what my weeks look like. People, uh, yeah, seem to find it interesting. Of course, on my website, sylviaholtslag.nl. Uh, yeah, I'm very happy if people feel inspired by what we spoke about today. I'm so happy about, um, free sessions. You can just book a session on my website. I would love to connect with people because it's, I feel it as my mission to serve, help people with, uh, yeah, with what I've learned and what I'm still experiencing in this moment. So, uh, yeah, so very welcome. Uh, yeah, to, uh, to meet up.
Jeanne: [00:47:21] Okay. So we'll make sure all those links are posted for you guys. So thank you again, Sylvia. So until next time, how are you going to stay naturally high? Thank you for joining me for this episode of Naturally High. If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or reach out to me through the links in the show notes. Together, we're changing the way the world approaches mental health, addiction, and trauma. Remember to like, subscribe and leave a rating for Naturally High on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode. For more inspiration and resources, follow me on Instagram at the recovery underscore concierge or visit the recovery concierge.com. Stay empowered, keep rising, and I'll see you in the next episode.
