WEBVTT
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Hey, everyone, welcome to the Multiply Network.
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My name is Paul Fraser.
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So glad you tuned in today.
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We're continuing championing our vision of Every Church a Multiplying Church.
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And because of that, we want to attack some -- Attack, that seems like a strong word -- We want to talk through some of the objections to church multiplication that might be floating around out there, maybe some that you've actually even said.
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You've talked about these things.
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You've given reasons why your church or someone else's church or why any church shouldn't be multiplying.
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So we want to bring those maybe uncomfortable topics up today out in the open.
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But of course, I'm not going to do that by myself.
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We have a guest coming on a little bit later. But we're going to bring on the co-host of the Multiply Network in these Eight Objections to Multiplication.
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And Michael Bronson, welcome back.
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Thanks for joining today.
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Absolutely, Paul.
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This is always a good time helping people across Canada talk about this. This is a lot of fun.
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Speaking of going across Canada, we were just across Canada, in the Maritimes. And you were there with me doing a Churches That Multiply clinic.
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But we toured you around a little bit. It was a short visit, the Maritimes. Any highlights of the Maritimes?
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Yeah.
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I've never been to the Maritimes before, so we, yeah, we traveled around Nova Scotia a little bit.
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That was fun. I never knew how beautiful it was.
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And I'm sure all the people from Nova Scotia are going to be annoyed right now. But it's like Canada's, like, best kept secret.
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Like, I never realized how beautiful it is out there.
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And it was it was great hanging out with Jim Molloy, one of the leaders out there. So yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was great.
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I hate to keep bringing this up, but my allergies were terrible out there. I know, I'm looking for Claratin or Reactine to sponsor this podcast somehow.
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But...My wife was along on the trip as well, and she kept saying over and over just how many trees there are in Nova Scotia particularly.
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And when we went to P.E.I., I'm not sure if we dipped in, you know, driving out to P.E.I.
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to New Brunswick, but what a great part of Canada.
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If you've never been there, go there. It's absolutely amazing.
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Yeah, I thought the ocean was supposed to help with allergies.
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What's going on there?
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What's going on?
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It's a myth.
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I feel like I'm setting up this podcast to be Allergy MythBusters.
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Because I feel like every time we talk, I bring it up.
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Anyways, let's talk about the objection that we're going to be kind of hitting back and forth.
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New churches hurt existing churches, primarily by taking people away.
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So, Michael, over to you, what do you think? Is this a legit, like, is this a legit objection to multiplication or not?
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Yeah. The reason we're including this is because it is common and it's talked about a lot.
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And there can be a lot of truth to this one, right?
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A new church starts.
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What happens? Oh they take a bunch of people from the surrounding churches.
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What did this actually accomplish?
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And I think you were telling me this one time, Paul, that you heard of a church plant that started right across the street from a different church, and a bunch of people just left the established church and went to the church plant, and then everyone was clapping and patting themselves on the shoulder.
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Look what we've done.
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And, you know, if you actually look at it from the Kingdom perspective, it's, well what was accomplished there? And yeah, like it, makes a lot of sense.
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And, you know, I would give the argument that it all depends on how you start.
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Whether it's -- there's a healthy way to do it and an unhealthy way to do it. And yeah, no, I'm excited to talk about this today because there is some truth to it.
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But like all the other objections, it doesn't have to be this way.
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Yeah. And I think for, specifically for that story, you know, we're, you know, literally they're planting right across the street. And actively -- I've heard of other stories of planters actively recruiting people from other churches without permission.
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Now, if you got permission, that's one thing. We're going to talk about sending versus stealing a little bit later. But while this does happen -- I've been in this role coming up to seven years.
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I've only heard of this happening one time in all of our church planting initiatives right across Canada.
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I've only heard of this happening one time. But what ends up happening, we know how one story can make the rounds in denomination and interdenominational circles.
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So you think this might be happening more than it actually is.
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And so-- But anyways, I think there's some legitimacy here to it, but I don't know, I don't know if there's enough evidence to prove that this is a legit objection for you not to multiply.
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But we're going to bring on our guest now, and he's going to set a straight to make sure that we're on the right point.
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Really excited to have Dave Slater.
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He's a church planter, lead pastor of a multiplying church at one point.
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He's the executive director of all things ministry in Western Ontario District in PAOC.
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He's an excellent communicator, pastor, leader, fundraiser, MMA fighter, professional arm wrestler, and gives the best tours of Manitoulin Island.
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Let's welcome Uncle Dave Slater to the podcast.
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Welcome, Dave.
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Great to be here, Paul.
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Great to be here, Michael.
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So excited.
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Do we want to talk about how Uncle Dave got started or should we leave that one alone?
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The archives.
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You could just watch some previous episodes.
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So, Dave, you sure you've been listening in on our conversation?
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Is this a legit, like, in your experience, like, is there legitimacy to this?
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Because we don't want to just like, say Ah, there is, and we just move on. But have you seen anything, where new churches can hurt existing churches?
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I think that planting new churches brings change.
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And so there is going to be some movement within existing churches. I think we just have to make room for that.
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But there always is movement.
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You know, it's not just church planting that causes the movement.
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So, yeah, I think there's some validity to it. But if we pan the camera out and we look at the bigger picture, there's so many more benefits.
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Totally.
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Yeah, and change always can bring uncomfortability.
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And with that people are like, oh, we're going to blame the new church.
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But it might be other things that are actually going on, with that.
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But let's talk a little bit about, I think, as we get, you know, talking about this, I think we actually have to maybe talk -- and, Michael, I'll pass this over to you -- on what unhealthy multiplying looks like. Because I think we're both aware that it can happen, but it doesn't have to happen.
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Michael, over to you.
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Yeah that's right.
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There's the healthy way to do it and then the unhealthy way to do it.
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And, you know, the unhealthy way of multiplication is when -- and again, we've probably all heard stories about this, right -- where it's all planned in secret.
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It's don't let the lead pastor find out that this is going to be happening. And it's out of frustration.
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And there's, you know, there's division, there's disunity.
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And maybe there's some wrong motivations for doing that. And, you know, the most heartbreaking part of it is maybe a staff feels like they're leaving a church or a person's leaving a church and they're almost cast out. You aren't welcome here anymore. And it's in a response of, Well, I'm going to show you then. I'm going to start a new one and this sort of thing.
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Or maybe they feel like, oh, I've escaped this church.
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You know. It was so terrible and this sort of thing. But it doesn't have to be that way.
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And, there's actually a healthy way of doing it where, you know, there can be a new church started that's planned with transparency.
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Right? It's done out of, with this kingdom mindset where the church is actually treating each other like family.
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Right? You don't cast a child out. No. You send a child out.
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There's unity.
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There's agreement.
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That the goal is for the kingdom, as a whole, not for one particular church, church location. And, you know, in contrast to that, that mindset of, oh, you're cast out.
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Or I had to escape this church to start this new thing.
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It's very much a sending mindset. We're sending you out.
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And I think what's most beautiful with a healthy, with a healthy, version of this is you're always welcome back as well.
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Come share how things have been.
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Share the stories.
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How can we support you?
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So it's not you had to escape.
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It's you're sent.
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And I think how churches start is so, so important. And how we position ourselves right at the beginning, that's going to determine is this a healthy church plant or is this an unhealthy way of doing multiplication?
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Great thoughts. Dave, how can we do this well?
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How can church plants do this well?
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And if you have any comments to what Michael has shared too, feel free to do that. But just, maybe pick up on the how, because I think the how really matters here.
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Yeah, I think I'd speak first to the idea of mission,
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the Great Commission.
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So often we get focused on ministry.
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But if we focus first on mission, ministry will become a vehicle to how we do mission. If we focus on ministry, often we don't get to mission.
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And that's what church planting is.
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And so, just what Michael was saying there about reframing, you know, church planting, it's not about stealing or counting numbers.
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It's about sending.
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It's about getting on mission.
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It's about following the directive of Jesus.
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I think a big one of the how, Paul, is communication is so -- Just being proactive.
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To have relationship.
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Don't show up in a community and just start something.
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Build. Build a ramp, build relationships.
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And if it's frosty, well, at least you took the posture to build relationship.
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And, you know, people's response isn't up to you. But I think, communication is is so, so big. And then even collaboration.
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Hey, we're going to plant this church together.
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Or sorry, we're going to plant this church. But I wonder if there are some things that we could do together along the way.
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So it's not an us and them.
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Maybe our church plant is going to be very different than an existing church, but, wow, we could gather together annually for an Easter service.
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We could we could join arms, lean in together on an outreach.
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You know, I just think there's a thousand things we could do together and be on the same team.
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So I think communication, I think relationship, I think posture- come in with a humility.
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And then, you know, that idea of collaboration.
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Dave, you just nailed it.
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And I don't know if I've had words for it until just now, about the idea of putting mission before ministry.
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That having another church come into your community neighborhood is actually a blessing to help you reach more people, when it's done healthy.
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I love that mission ministry side of things.
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So, when you talk about communication, Dave, just want to follow up a little bit.
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Who are you communicating with?
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So I'm a new planter.
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I'm coming into your area.
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What do you want to hear from me, as it relates to communication? Because I think we both -- I think there has been communication from both the planter and the existing church leadership.
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Yeah. You know, I just think, first of all, starting off with relationship.
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Can we go for coffee?
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And, even before we talk about plans, let's build some relationship here.
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Let's not go in cold.
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And maybe there's a few meetings like that, including the existing pastor or pastors or leaders in your plans.
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Hey, this is what we're thinking.
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You've been here longer.
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Maybe there's some things I can learn from you since you've been in this community for 25 years. You know, as a church planter, I think often we can come off a little bit like we have all the answers.
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So, just coming in with that posture of humility.
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And then the communication piece is, you know, this is what we're hoping to do.
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Do you have insights for us?
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Feedback for us?
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And then just communicating safety.
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We're a church that wants to be on mission.
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We're not looking to take from other churches.
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We'd love for other churches to send people, to send resources, but, that's something that we could talk about at another time.
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Just to get the ball rolling, I want you to know it's safe.
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And if people come over, I want us to be in communication about that as things arise, that we can always journey together.
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Yeah. Dave, you mentioning that, that's really -- I want to just affirm how important that is.
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So, in our context, when we started a new church in Binbrook and then a new church in Dundas, one of the first things that our team did was we sent an email to each of the established churches, saying that exact thing. And I would, just, I would give that advice to any church planter or anyone involved in multiplication, is we emailed every, every church and said, hey, just so you know, this is what our name is, here's our website, here's what we're thinking.
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And we literally had that line.
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Our intention is not to take anyone from your local church.
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We are trying to reach new people in this community.
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And you know, it made it really, it's just this beautiful moment when I did end up meeting in person these different leaders, for them to know, oh, they took the time to say they're not, you know, trying to sheep steal, trying to just get a bunch of church transfers.
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It just gave it such a good start. And we did that in both cases.
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And I, yeah, I would recommend that to everyone involved in multiplication. To just being very blunt and to even say this is not our intention to do this. And I just think it creates unity, right? Which is important.
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And you modeled this in Binbrook, didn't you, Michael?
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Maybe you've got a couple stories here because, you know, walking in humility, walking in that mission first mindset is incredibly important.
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Thanks, Dave, for sharing that.
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Can you give us examples of that?
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I know that you mentioned you sent emails to everyone, but I mean, just getting to know the community, too.
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It's not just a relationship with the pastors in the area.
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You all need to start a relationship with the community.
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You have to walk in humility before the community, because that's who you're there to reach.
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Yeah, yeah. That's right.
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Well, because it really comes down to evangelism.
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It's like what you said, Dave.
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It's about mission.
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What is what is the point of this?
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Oh, right, we're trying to make new disciples.
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If if all this is, is gathering different people that are already part of our faith, coming to-- that already know Jesus, well then, what's the point? It makes no difference. But this is about new conversions and new disciples of Jesus. So I just remember when we were, yeah, when we were starting in Binbrook, I remember I would just go to, you know, I was I was in my 20s, so I would go to the skate park and just hang out with as many, you know, young adults as possible.
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And I'd start these conversations.
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I remember the big kind of event in Binbrook is the Binbrook Fall Fair.
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If you're ever around, you should come. We've got a derby.
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It's a lot of fun.
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But I remember going home to my wife, one day and saying, hey, I signed up to volunteer at the fair.
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She said, wow, what do you what are you volunteering in? And I said, I'm volunteering in the photography department.
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She looks at me. She says, but you don't have a camera.
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And I'm like, that's fine, I'm going to borrow one. And then she says, but you don't know how to take pictures. I said, that's fine.
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I'm going to learn.
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Don't worry about it.
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And I just figured, you know, to go in and serve the community, meet as many people as possible. And in the photography department, it gave me permission to, in a non awkward way, go talk to as many people as I could and say, hey, can I take your picture?
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Where, I'm in the photography department. Oh, what's your name?
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Oh that's great. How long have you lived here?
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I just moved here.
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We're starting the new church.
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Yeah. And just how many-- You know, dozens and dozens.
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Maybe a hundred or so conversations that weekend, telling people about the new church and kind of the heart behind the church.
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And it was so beautiful.
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We, by the end of that, I talked to my one friend, John, and we just had a really good conversation with God.
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And at the very end of our convo, he said, yeah, I guess I could give God a shot. I guess I could give him a shot. And it was it was really exciting because that was actually our church's, like Mountainside Church's, our history, it was our first kind of ministry win, of whoa, we've talked to someone about Jesus and they're open about Jesus.
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And I went and I told that story for the next, you know, eight months as we are prepping to launch.
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I would tell that story of my friend John of, Yeah, there's people here waiting to hear about Jesus. And there's been so many more more stories. We don't have time to get into them all.
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But it's -- that's the purpose ofa new churches.
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That's the purpose of multiplication.
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It's not who can we convince from the other churches to come?
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It's who are -- who is not a part of a church right now, that God has opened their heart, they're ready to receive, and we just need to be obedient and go out there and do the mission.
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100%.
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Great.
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One of the things, though, that we all know -- Dave, you have been a part of a church plant as well.
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You were, a lead pastor of a sending church, multiplying church.
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Michael, I'll want you to comment on this as well.
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But people do come from other churches to check it out, and they might be looking for a change.
00:19:49.250 --> 00:19:52.765
Like, Dave, any thoughts on how we can navigate this well?
00:19:52.766 --> 00:20:03.019
Like, you go in and say we're not here to sheep steal. We're not dadadada...you know. And then they end up at your church. And like, we didn't recruit, but they're still here.
00:20:03.019 --> 00:20:12.439
Like, how can church planters and existing leaders navigate this kind of, you know, awkwardness maybe?
00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:14.598
Maybe it's not awkward.
00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:16.128
Dave, any thoughts?
00:20:16.130 --> 00:20:18.288
Have you had this happen before?
00:20:18.289 --> 00:20:43.638
Yeah. You know, what's ironic is when we went multi-site, I took a sabbatical just before we launched. And there was a whole crowd of people while I was away that lined up to go with the new church launch. And, I came back and I had a couple of moments there where I was looking in the mirror and asking myself, just those insecurity questions, you know?
00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:47.689
And they were good people, like some of our key, key people.
00:20:47.690 --> 00:20:55.788
I guess what I would tell an existing church pastor is everybody who goes doesn't always stay.
00:20:57.380 --> 00:21:05.179
And the number of people who actually came back, in time, for multiple reasons.
00:21:05.180 --> 00:21:11.210
So I think there's, again, panning out the camera, and looking at time.
00:21:12.769 --> 00:21:18.469
The other thing I would say is that God fills in the holes.
00:21:18.470 --> 00:21:20.882
I'm just saying this to reassure pastors.
00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:24.528
I know what you asked, Paul, but just reassuring pastors.
00:21:24.529 --> 00:21:29.660
So as a planter, I would also say it really comes down to communication.
00:21:30.980 --> 00:21:33.858
Picking up the phone, not email.
00:21:33.859 --> 00:21:36.108
Hey, can we get a coffee again?
00:21:36.109 --> 00:21:49.159
I just wanted you to know, these three families and this individual have been coming a couple of weeks, and I know none of these people belong to us. It's the body of Christ.
00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:51.648
But I just wanted you to be aware.
00:21:51.650 --> 00:21:58.128
I know that can be an awkward conversation, depending on the dynamics, but you'll never regret that.
00:21:58.130 --> 00:22:00.528
So I just would say communication.
00:22:02.410 --> 00:22:09.489
And, why stop? Like, why ever stop the communication with other pastors in your community?
00:22:09.490 --> 00:22:12.710
Like, to me, that's just a normal, should be an everyday.
00:22:12.711 --> 00:22:21.429
Show up at ministerial meetings. Show up at different events that they put on, where the pastor's families get together.
00:22:21.430 --> 00:22:25.749
My dad pastored in a church almost 30 years, small town, northern Alberta.
00:22:25.750 --> 00:22:27.638
He was like leading the ministerial.
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:34.358
He would help provide a golf tournament and all these different things to get the pastors and their parishioners together.
00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:36.068
So they just got to know each other.
00:22:36.069 --> 00:22:38.288
It's not a negative thing.
00:22:38.289 --> 00:22:43.009
Michael, you got a great story about when you started planting in Binbrook.
00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:51.128
Another planter was starting that same time and you guys went out for coffee, had that conversation.
00:22:51.130 --> 00:23:00.319
Tell that story quickly, because I think it's such a cool story on how you guys put mission ahead of your own ministry.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:03.538
Yeah, yeah. That's right.
00:23:03.539 --> 00:23:08.398
So we were starting a church at a similar time as someone else.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:12.028
And I remember we're looking at each other. We're feeling this is awkward.
00:23:12.029 --> 00:23:14.038
But you know what? This is about the kingdom.
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:26.578
And we launched a little bit before them. And I remember I as I got to know, as I got to know them and, you know, making sure they're legit. We're on the same page, we're trying to accomplish the same thing.
00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:47.729
I remember we called him forward as he was launching, on one of our Sunday services, and we prayed for them. We took up an offering for them. And I really felt like it was the right thing to do, to say, hey, if you need to go and help start this other new church, you have our blessing to go and help. And I remember, I think it was just one person, but one person left.
00:23:47.730 --> 00:23:52.169
And yeah, it's like, I know that feeling, Dave. It's like, wait, you're actually leaving?
00:23:52.170 --> 00:23:53.439
Oh, no. But you know what?
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:58.648
It was the reason why we kind of had this mindset, was it was modelled to us.
00:23:58.650 --> 00:24:12.628
So we had a church in Burlington that was very supportive to us when we, you know, just half an hour away. And then we had another church in Hamilton just, you know, 20 minutes away that were both very supportive of us, that they called us to the front.
00:24:12.630 --> 00:24:15.239
And they said, they said the same thing.
00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:19.739
If you feel led to go help this start this new church, you have the freedom to do that.
00:24:19.740 --> 00:24:29.009
And I remember the arrangement we had, and maybe this isn't the arrangement that works for every context, but just for our context, was with both of these lead pastors that were supporting us.
00:24:29.009 --> 00:24:34.828
They said, please don't go approach people and try to recruit them and ask them to come.
00:24:34.829 --> 00:24:42.058
But if someone approaches you, feel free to, you know, turn your sales hat on and be like, yeah, you should totally do this.
00:24:42.059 --> 00:24:50.459
This is awesome, and cast vision for that. And I remember there were certain people where I was like, oh, I just really want to ask them to come with us.
00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:52.858
They would just be amazing.
00:24:52.859 --> 00:25:04.409
But just trying to honor these churches that have been so gracious to us and, and, you know, telling myself, I'm not going to do that because this is a healthy arrangement that we've worked out.
00:25:04.410 --> 00:25:17.429
And it was just a really cool moment how we were able to do that with another church. And then as we started our Dundas church, it was the same thing. There was another church in town that was starting and we called them up.
00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:18.959
We took an offering for them.
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.638
And someone left.
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:27.269
And Paul and Dave, you'll appreciate the pain here. It was one of our drummers. We had two drummers and one of our drummers left.
00:25:27.269 --> 00:25:29.969
And I was thinking, what have I done? What have I done?
00:25:29.970 --> 00:25:31.078
But you know what?
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:34.078
Some people may see this as, Well that's just being foolish.
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:37.259
What are you doing? But I truly don't see it as foolish.
00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:39.269
I see it as being kingdom minded.
00:25:39.269 --> 00:25:42.509
Is the kingdom of God is going to be taken care of.
00:25:42.509 --> 00:25:46.259
And that's what we need to think about, not our own individual setting.
00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:50.398
Yeah. And and so there's two sides to this coin.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:53.759
You know, you have to be as a planter be honoring.
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:55.199
Don't be sheep stealing.
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:56.729
Don't be recruiting.
00:25:56.730 --> 00:26:06.378
Be communicating with the existing pastor. And then the existing pastors, you have an opportunity here to be a sender.
00:26:06.380 --> 00:26:10.519
You have an opportunity to do what happened in in Michael's case.
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:13.249
And then he, you know, did that again.
00:26:13.250 --> 00:26:19.429
Wouldn't that be great for us to have that kingdom mindset over and over and over when it comes to multiplication?
00:26:19.430 --> 00:26:23.298
Because, because in that case, then we're helping the kingdom.
00:26:23.299 --> 00:26:24.078
And you know what?
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:43.038
When you send some people, that's another opportunity for God to send you some people to fill in those gaps, where you pray them in, and you have an opportunity to see leaders who maybe were, you know, waiting in the wings now get to step up because there's a vacancy, there's a leadership vacuum that's there.
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:45.229
And it's hard to send.
00:26:45.230 --> 00:26:47.269
It's really hard to send.
00:26:47.269 --> 00:26:50.598
But they're not ours to keep.
00:26:50.599 --> 00:26:58.308
Jesus is one who's in charge. He's the one who's in charge of their plan for their life, not you.
00:26:58.309 --> 00:27:03.469
I know, pastors, you think you have everyone's plan sorted out and everything.
00:27:03.470 --> 00:27:08.778
We're here to help Jesus move people closer to Him.
00:27:08.779 --> 00:27:10.548
That's it in the end.
00:27:10.549 --> 00:27:12.348
So we want to be senders.
00:27:12.349 --> 00:27:15.588
And, thanks both of you for sharing that.
00:27:15.589 --> 00:27:27.409
Now, Dave, Tim Keller, you know, one of the incredible voices, thinkers of our day, really passionate about urban church planting specifically.
00:27:27.410 --> 00:27:30.558
But he raised some points in the book Why Plant Churches?
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:35.489
And, I had come across this and then came across this again.
00:27:35.490 --> 00:27:40.159
I'd come across it sometime ago, came across it again recently as we're preparing for this podcast.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:47.538
And he shares some things on how new churches can actually help existing churches.
00:27:47.539 --> 00:27:49.799
Dave, why don't you run through some of those with us?
00:27:50.990 --> 00:27:59.509
Yeah, I was really struck, Paul, and I'd read it before, but, more of the outcome that Keller touches on.
00:28:00.589 --> 00:28:07.848
He lists, and I just summarized them in my own words, six things that happen when we start new churches.
00:28:07.849 --> 00:28:17.028
New churches equal reaching new people groups, new believers, new ideas, new leaders, new perspective and new growth.
00:28:17.029 --> 00:28:35.169
And so, you know, just leaning in, as an existing church, to church planting takes us out of the status quo and brings us into motion and, again, on to mission.
00:28:35.170 --> 00:28:42.759
And I just, I want to hammer on this for a second, Paul. We are an apostolic movement.
00:28:44.170 --> 00:28:48.009
And to be apostolic, it means to be sent.
00:28:48.009 --> 00:28:49.209
It means to break.
00:28:49.210 --> 00:28:54.489
It means to break ground, and it means to take risks.
00:28:54.490 --> 00:28:57.470
I love what Allen Hirsch, said.
00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:01.490
A little bit of danger is good for us.
00:29:03.099 --> 00:29:24.199
And I think that's what Keller is getting at, that if we are going to, if we're going to be about the Great Commission, we have to step out of our comfort zone and take these risks, both as planting churches and existing churches.
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:29.209
And, and so I just, that's what I hear Tim getting at in this article.
00:29:30.529 --> 00:29:44.239
Yeah. And and he also talks a little bit about how new churches bring new ideas to the whole body. How new churches are one of the best places to identify creative, strong leaders for the whole body.
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:49.308
New churches challenge other churches with self-examination, those types of things.
00:29:49.309 --> 00:29:54.199
And also new churches may be an evangelistic feeder for the whole community.
00:29:54.200 --> 00:30:00.828
They help other churches be kingdom minded. Like, I've seen that before.
00:30:00.829 --> 00:30:10.909
Where a new church comes in and, you know, if you're a district or denomination, you kind of highlight that. Like, look at how they're reaching people.
00:30:10.910 --> 00:30:16.969
And all of a sudden that sparks a new idea in an existing pastor. I've seen it over and over and over again.
00:30:16.970 --> 00:30:17.970
And so I think-- Go ahead, Dave.
00:30:19.460 --> 00:30:21.055
No, it's permission giving too.
00:30:21.056 --> 00:30:22.459
You know.
00:30:22.460 --> 00:30:26.598
Yes, it's the creativity and the ideas.
00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:39.199
But, when things are working, existing churches can go to their leadership teams, their treasurers, their boards and say, hey, you know, we've all heard about what's happening over there.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:41.088
Why don't we try that here?
00:30:41.089 --> 00:30:44.269
And it gives permission to existing churches.
00:30:44.269 --> 00:30:50.670
The other thing that Keller highlights, is it platforms new leaders.
00:30:53.299 --> 00:30:58.470
And it allows for more people. And here's Jesus' prayer, isn't it?
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:02.118
You know, pray to the Lord of the harvest to send out workers.
00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:06.378
And so planting churches raises up new leaders.
00:31:06.380 --> 00:31:09.679
So all these things together are just such a huge benefit.
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:10.519
You know what?
00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:15.078
You know that Rich Wilkerson Jr has a quote.
00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:16.459
This relates perfectly.
00:31:16.460 --> 00:31:19.578
Where he is developing these leaders and, you know, different churches.
00:31:19.579 --> 00:31:22.098
They're going to different places and this sort of thing.
00:31:22.099 --> 00:31:26.749
And someone asked him, what if you develop all these leaders and then they just leave?
00:31:26.750 --> 00:31:34.529
You know, like what do you do with that? And his response back is, Well, what if I don't develop them and then they stay.
00:31:35.450 --> 00:31:49.249
You know, that's way worse to have someone who has the capacity to be a leader just sitting in your pew doing nothing versus, yeah, we're raising up leaders and we're actually sending them out. And that's actually okay.
00:31:49.250 --> 00:31:50.659
That's not actually okay.
00:31:50.660 --> 00:31:51.588
It's the goal.
00:31:51.589 --> 00:32:03.709
It's the goal. Don't keep our -- You know, when we're talking about being a sending church, let's send our best, you know. Let's not send our, Ah, they're all right. We won't really miss them them. Here you go.
00:32:03.710 --> 00:32:08.058
Let's send our best just with that mindset of, you know, we will reap what we sow.
00:32:08.059 --> 00:32:12.138
And we actually believe that God means that when He put that in Scripture.
00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:13.490
So I think it's important to do.
00:32:14.702 --> 00:32:16.169
Great thoughts.
00:32:16.170 --> 00:32:21.913
Just as I was sitting back listening to both of you share and specifically a thought around, Dave, platforming.
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:35.739
I think if you're a district or national leader, one of our most important things that we can do is platforming the right people, the right stories.
00:32:35.740 --> 00:32:52.929
And I think that's a great way where we show, hey, look, the new churches are helping the existing churches. Or here's a story of Michael Bronson, who got sent by two other churches and people-- You know, just telling these stories, I think, Dave, you're absolutely right.
00:32:52.930 --> 00:32:56.409
Share. Give permission to the existing churches.
00:32:56.410 --> 00:32:58.479
Go, Hey, maybe we can be creative.
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:00.189
Maybe we can be generous.
00:33:00.190 --> 00:33:04.929
Maybe we can focus on leadership development.
00:33:04.930 --> 00:33:10.388
Dave, before we move on, I just want to--. Do you have any more thoughts about that or any comments?
00:33:10.390 --> 00:33:17.348
I just --. I'm a little bit overwhelmed by the need and how the need continues to grow.
00:33:17.349 --> 00:33:24.670
I was looking at some stats that, you know, our nation has grown by 10 million people over the last handful of years.
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:28.359
But the church has actually shrunk.
00:33:30.970 --> 00:33:37.150
I think it was between 5 and 8% of Canadians attend church.
00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:44.199
So 2 million people out of 40, some people say 41 million people.
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:46.568
So the pie is not shrinking.
00:33:46.569 --> 00:33:47.569
It's growing.
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:52.148
But the church is shrinking.
00:33:52.150 --> 00:33:59.378
And so the idea that, well, we can't have any new churches because--.
00:33:59.380 --> 00:34:03.368
On the contrary, we're not keeping up.
00:34:03.369 --> 00:34:06.999
And we have to get back to being missional.
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:12.907
We have to lean in like we've never leaned in before and step up with the radical faith.
00:34:12.909 --> 00:34:15.608
We don't need one other church in that community.
00:34:15.610 --> 00:34:26.528
We need ten new churches in that community. And what's so hopeful - I don't want to be negative - What's so hopeful is many of these new Canadians will engage with the gospel.
00:34:26.530 --> 00:34:28.958
I've experienced this myself.
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:37.838
Talking to Preet, talking to Mo, talking to Sandle. These are people that I've talked to and they want to hear more.
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:43.657
When you begin a spiritual conversation with them, they will engage with you.
00:34:43.659 --> 00:34:46.478
And the mission field has come to Canada.
00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:57.759
So I would just say that, now, like never, we need to accelerate at church planting and get excited about what God's doing.
00:34:57.760 --> 00:34:58.929
Well said, Dave.
00:34:58.929 --> 00:35:00.398
Well said.
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:01.659
Thank you for sharing that.
00:35:02.710 --> 00:35:04.568
So we need new churches.
00:35:04.570 --> 00:35:09.668
Let's not let this objection get in the way, in any shape or form.
00:35:09.670 --> 00:35:13.179
There's healthy ways to do multiplication.
00:35:13.179 --> 00:35:15.248
So Michael, you're the Bible guy.
00:35:15.250 --> 00:35:16.929
Bring us, bring us a scripture.
00:35:16.929 --> 00:35:18.969
Bring us a thought from Acts 13.
00:35:20.289 --> 00:35:25.778
Yeah, there's just this beautiful example of what healthy multiplication looks like.
00:35:25.780 --> 00:35:30.429
And it's not at all about, Let's grow by transfer or sheep stealing.
00:35:30.429 --> 00:35:32.228
It's all about sending.
00:35:32.230 --> 00:35:37.119
"Now in the church of Antioch, there were prophets and teachers.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:44.528
Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, Mananean..." We were making the joke recently, no one ever talks about that guy.
00:35:44.530 --> 00:35:46.059
His name is too hard to pronounce.
00:35:46.059 --> 00:35:47.108
"...and Saul.
00:35:47.110 --> 00:35:54.068
While they're worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, set apart Barnabas and Saul for the work which I've called them to do." So look what it says.
00:35:54.070 --> 00:35:55.929
"So they fasted and prayed.
00:35:55.929 --> 00:35:58.298
They placed their hands on them." And what did they do?
00:35:58.300 --> 00:36:12.068
"They sent them off." And we're talking about Barnabas and Saul here, as in the Apostle Paul. So here's Antioch sending out their very best to go and multiply.
00:36:12.070 --> 00:36:16.458
And I just think what an example for us to follow.
00:36:16.460 --> 00:36:28.501
Brilliant. Jerry Berenguer - both of us know who he is, great prolific planter, leader, apostolic leader - said this on a cohort I was on.
00:36:28.503 --> 00:36:34.778
He said, Until you believe that the church is family, you will never send your best.
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.708
He says, When you believe church is family, you'll always send your best. But guess what?
00:36:40.710 --> 00:36:43.800
Organizational thinking is you always keep your best.
00:36:45.139 --> 00:36:46.878
And that's the difference.
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:47.880
And so they --.
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:51.679
So, just a great thought from Jerry there.
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:52.969
I had lunch with him last week.
00:36:52.969 --> 00:36:57.228
Just beautiful, beautiful story of what's happening there in his church.
00:36:57.230 --> 00:36:59.119
So, here's the counter statement.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:00.858
Here's the counter statement.
00:37:00.860 --> 00:37:21.139
Healthy new churches aim to grow from new disciples rather than from existing churches, and desire to handle church transfers in a loving and kingdom minded way, and maybe can influence in a positive way existing churches around them.
00:37:21.139 --> 00:37:34.548
I think we would all agree with that. And since we do agree with that, what are some next practical steps that we can do to see more multiplication happen?
00:37:34.550 --> 00:37:38.989
And, maybe it's a bit of a summary of what we've talked about already.
00:37:38.989 --> 00:37:40.400
Dave, we'll go to you first.
00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:42.889
Any any thoughts on that?
00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:48.260
I think we need to identify our next step and then we need to jump.
00:37:50.659 --> 00:37:54.778
I think that we think about things a lot.
00:37:54.780 --> 00:37:56.309
We pray about things a lot.
00:37:56.309 --> 00:37:57.706
We talk about things a lot.
00:37:57.708 --> 00:38:07.438
But we actually need to, we need to take that step of faith and not play it safe.
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:11.188
And so the practical step is taking the risk.
00:38:11.190 --> 00:38:23.039
I remember when we were sitting around the table, at District Executive in WOD, talking about getting a full time director for church multiplication.
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:26.728
And it came around to talking about money.
00:38:26.730 --> 00:38:39.750
And one of the seasoned leaders spoke up around the table and said, I think it's time for us to step out in faith where we really need a miracle from God.
00:38:41.719 --> 00:38:53.958
And so I just think, practically, Paul, we need to step out into a place where we need God to come through, in our own lives, as a movement.
00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:56.510
We need to take some fresh risks.
00:38:57.769 --> 00:38:58.871
So that would be my two cents.
00:38:59.989 --> 00:39:01.369
Wonderful. Great thoughts.
00:39:01.369 --> 00:39:02.420
Michael, your thoughts?
00:39:03.789 --> 00:39:06.639
Yeah, I would just challenge all the church planters.
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:08.469
Anyone involved with multiplication.
00:39:08.469 --> 00:39:17.559
Don't sheep steal on purpose, okay? Be transparent with with how you're approaching people from other churches and this sort of thing.
00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:27.579
And just keep in mind, remember, there's no point in starting your new church if it ends up hurting or killing another church. You know, that's not actually progress.
00:39:27.579 --> 00:39:29.559
It's just moving people around.
00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:30.728
Do it in a healthy way.
00:39:30.730 --> 00:39:33.099
And we do that by focusing on evangelism. Right?
00:39:33.099 --> 00:39:45.338
And listen, it's way harder to make a new disciple, versus just collecting some different disciples. But that's what we're called to do. And then if it does end up happening and transfers happen. Listen.
00:39:45.340 --> 00:39:46.389
Yeah, you need a base.
00:39:46.389 --> 00:39:48.398
Absolutely. It's going to happen.
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:52.628
Pray those people in, you know, and, you know, I wonder if we should be praying for free agents.
00:39:52.630 --> 00:39:55.311
You know, the people that have just moved to town.
00:39:55.311 --> 00:39:58.059
They actually don't belong to a church yet.
00:39:58.059 --> 00:40:00.728
And they're looking for a church to support and get behind.
00:40:00.730 --> 00:40:01.661
Pray for those free agents.
00:40:01.661 --> 00:40:03.878
And listen, if you're an established
00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:10.148
Be a sending church. It doesn't mean you need to carry the entire weight.
00:40:10.150 --> 00:40:15.608
Maybe it means partnering with a handful of other churches and saying, Let's all send this person together.
00:40:16.677 --> 00:40:22.898
When it hurts, when some of our best people leave, remember, it's an investment into the kingdom.
00:40:22.900 --> 00:40:24.909
It's actually not about you.
00:40:24.909 --> 00:40:28.208
And, we already talked about it, but I, I really believe we reap what we
00:40:30.130 --> 00:40:31.628
God fills the gaps.
00:40:31.630 --> 00:40:40.719
If a worship leader is gone, I really believe that God has for us either a new worship leader to come, or someone to be raised up into that role.
00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:45.009
And let's do it in a healthy way, because it's a beautiful thing when it happens.
00:40:45.010 --> 00:40:47.048
What a great podcast, you guys.
00:40:47.050 --> 00:40:48.518
We should hire you full time.
00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:49.688
Take the step of faith.
00:40:50.769 --> 00:40:54.248
Thanks. Thanks, Dave, so much for those great thoughts.
00:40:54.250 --> 00:40:58.268
We know you lean in so well to multiplication in Canada.
00:40:58.269 --> 00:41:04.989
Your heart is so impassioned for new starts all over Canada.
00:41:04.989 --> 00:41:17.679
And when you read those stats, we can't help but feel the urgency and the burden to see new disciple making communities started, so that every Canadian can have an access point to the gospel.
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:22.659
So really appreciate you taking the time to be with us today.
00:41:22.659 --> 00:41:31.418
And it was an NCN call- New Churches Network call - Dave, that I think you were leading, when Glyn Barrett, was leading.
00:41:31.420 --> 00:41:39.429
And he said, you can be one of two leaders. You can be a one day leader, meaning we'll do that one day.
00:41:39.429 --> 00:41:41.858
One day down the road we'll be a sending church.
00:41:41.860 --> 00:41:44.889
One day down the road we'll be a multiplying church.
00:41:44.889 --> 00:41:52.239
One day down the road we'll be -- we'll start an entrepreneurial plant -- we'll start a church.
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:55.208
Or you could be a day one leader.
00:41:55.210 --> 00:41:58.958
And this could be your day one.
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:00.759
Day one of being a sending church.
00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:09.429
Day one of being a multiplying church. Day one of you being the founding pastor of a new disciple making community.
00:42:09.429 --> 00:42:12.291
We're praying for you today, that this would be day one.
00:42:12.291 --> 00:42:23.619
That you would feel impassioned and excited to reach people far from God in this amazing nation of Canada.
00:42:23.619 --> 00:42:26.378
So, Dave, thanks for your time today. Thanks for jumping on.
00:42:26.380 --> 00:42:32.768
Michael, thanks, as always for leaning in so well and appreciate all of you.
00:42:32.769 --> 00:42:37.938
Just before we go, we talk about this idea of every church a multiplying church.
00:42:37.940 --> 00:42:46.119
Whether you're in a denomination or a fellowship or a network, we're here to help however we can.
00:42:46.119 --> 00:43:05.608
And if there's something that, you know, you want resources on, or if there's some way that we can help you --. In our particular movement, in the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, we're asking every church in our fellowship to be a multiplying church by starting one or funding or partnering with one.
00:43:05.608 --> 00:43:09.909
Because we think even in small and big ways, you can partner.
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:21.101
When you listen to sports reporters and they interview people who are in a slump, people who are in a bit of a drought in their career, in their sport, you
00:43:22.300 --> 00:43:27.969
we're looking to contribute in other ways.
00:43:27.969 --> 00:43:33.159
And maybe you're in a church right now that can't start a new disciple making community. You can partner.
00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:41.228
You can send people over to help them. You can -- To do work bees. You can send the pastor a gift card for a date night.
00:43:41.230 --> 00:43:44.438
You can send some funds their way and take up an offering.
00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:46.599
There's lots of ways to partner.
00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:55.929
There's just no way we're going to reach Canada without working together. Every single denomination, every network, all of us in together.
00:43:55.929 --> 00:43:57.099
And why wouldn't we?
00:43:57.099 --> 00:44:01.208
Because we have the greatest story ever told.
00:44:01.210 --> 00:44:05.619
And I think it was Mark Twain who said the best storyteller wins the generation.
00:44:05.619 --> 00:44:07.179
Well, we have the best story.
00:44:07.179 --> 00:44:09.938
Let's be the best story tellers.
00:44:09.940 --> 00:44:11.259
Thanks so much for tuning in.
00:44:11.260 --> 00:44:14.139
We'll have objection number five in our next podcast.
00:44:14.139 --> 00:44:16.340
Thanks so much for listening right to the end.
00:44:17.409 --> 00:44:18.668
Well, thanks for listening today.
00:44:18.670 --> 00:44:21.188
We trust this conversation was encouraging.
00:44:21.190 --> 00:44:27.608
If you want more information on church multiplication resources, or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey,
00:44:28.590 --> 00:44:29.590
MultiplyNetwork@paoc.org.
00:44:32.500 --> 00:44:33.500
Until next time.
00:00:04.309 --> 00:00:06.868
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Multiply Network.
00:00:06.870 --> 00:00:07.918
My name is Paul Fraser.
00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:08.910
So glad you tuned in today.
00:00:08.912 --> 00:00:16.439
We're continuing championing our vision of Every Church a Multiplying Church.
00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:32.848
And because of that, we want to attack some -- Attack, that seems like a strong word -- We want to talk through some of the objections to church multiplication that might be floating around out there, maybe some that you've actually even said.
00:00:32.850 --> 00:00:34.558
You've talked about these things.
00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:41.039
You've given reasons why your church or someone else's church or why any church shouldn't be multiplying.
00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:46.709
So we want to bring those maybe uncomfortable topics up today out in the open.
00:00:46.710 --> 00:00:49.168
But of course, I'm not going to do that by myself.
00:00:49.170 --> 00:00:58.649
We have a guest coming on a little bit later. But we're going to bring on the co-host of the Multiply Network in these Eight Objections to Multiplication.
00:00:58.649 --> 00:01:00.899
And Michael Bronson, welcome back.
00:01:00.899 --> 00:01:02.999
Thanks for joining today.
00:01:04.420 --> 00:01:05.378
Absolutely, Paul.
00:01:05.379 --> 00:01:10.028
This is always a good time helping people across Canada talk about this. This is a lot of fun.
00:01:12.810 --> 00:01:23.009
Speaking of going across Canada, we were just across Canada, in the Maritimes. And you were there with me doing a Churches That Multiply clinic.
00:01:23.010 --> 00:01:28.540
But we toured you around a little bit. It was a short visit, the Maritimes. Any highlights of the Maritimes?
00:01:29.500 --> 00:01:30.308
Yeah.
00:01:30.310 --> 00:01:34.509
I've never been to the Maritimes before, so we, yeah, we traveled around Nova Scotia a little bit.
00:01:34.510 --> 00:01:37.688
That was fun. I never knew how beautiful it was.
00:01:37.689 --> 00:01:44.679
And I'm sure all the people from Nova Scotia are going to be annoyed right now. But it's like Canada's, like, best kept secret.
00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:47.078
Like, I never realized how beautiful it is out there.
00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:53.209
And it was it was great hanging out with Jim Molloy, one of the leaders out there. So yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was great.
00:01:55.280 --> 00:02:04.478
I hate to keep bringing this up, but my allergies were terrible out there. I know, I'm looking for Claratin or Reactine to sponsor this podcast somehow.
00:02:06.590 --> 00:02:15.649
But...My wife was along on the trip as well, and she kept saying over and over just how many trees there are in Nova Scotia particularly.
00:02:15.650 --> 00:02:20.118
And when we went to P.E.I., I'm not sure if we dipped in, you know, driving out to P.E.I.
00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:22.968
to New Brunswick, but what a great part of Canada.
00:02:22.969 --> 00:02:27.079
If you've never been there, go there. It's absolutely amazing.
00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:29.748
Yeah, I thought the ocean was supposed to help with allergies.
00:02:29.750 --> 00:02:30.709
What's going on there?
00:02:30.710 --> 00:02:31.710
What's going on?
00:02:32.509 --> 00:02:33.509
It's a myth.
00:02:35.810 --> 00:02:41.329
I feel like I'm setting up this podcast to be Allergy MythBusters.
00:02:41.330 --> 00:02:43.968
Because I feel like every time we talk, I bring it up.
00:02:43.969 --> 00:02:52.669
Anyways, let's talk about the objection that we're going to be kind of hitting back and forth.
00:02:52.669 --> 00:03:01.889
New churches hurt existing churches, primarily by taking people away.
00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:11.389
So, Michael, over to you, what do you think? Is this a legit, like, is this a legit objection to multiplication or not?
00:03:12.710 --> 00:03:17.718
Yeah. The reason we're including this is because it is common and it's talked about a lot.
00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:21.241
And there can be a lot of truth to this one, right?
00:03:21.241 --> 00:03:24.019
A new church starts.
00:03:24.020 --> 00:03:28.368
What happens? Oh they take a bunch of people from the surrounding churches.
00:03:28.370 --> 00:03:29.868
What did this actually accomplish?
00:03:29.870 --> 00:03:43.489
And I think you were telling me this one time, Paul, that you heard of a church plant that started right across the street from a different church, and a bunch of people just left the established church and went to the church plant, and then everyone was clapping and patting themselves on the shoulder.
00:03:43.490 --> 00:03:44.359
Look what we've done.
00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:52.699
And, you know, if you actually look at it from the Kingdom perspective, it's, well what was accomplished there? And yeah, like it, makes a lot of sense.
00:03:52.699 --> 00:03:58.308
And, you know, I would give the argument that it all depends on how you start.
00:03:58.310 --> 00:04:05.568
Whether it's -- there's a healthy way to do it and an unhealthy way to do it. And yeah, no, I'm excited to talk about this today because there is some truth to it.
00:04:05.569 --> 00:04:09.528
But like all the other objections, it doesn't have to be this way.
00:04:09.530 --> 00:04:29.918
Yeah. And I think for, specifically for that story, you know, we're, you know, literally they're planting right across the street. And actively -- I've heard of other stories of planters actively recruiting people from other churches without permission.
00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:42.728
Now, if you got permission, that's one thing. We're going to talk about sending versus stealing a little bit later. But while this does happen -- I've been in this role coming up to seven years.
00:04:42.730 --> 00:04:48.038
I've only heard of this happening one time in all of our church planting initiatives right across Canada.
00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:58.988
I've only heard of this happening one time. But what ends up happening, we know how one story can make the rounds in denomination and interdenominational circles.
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So you think this might be happening more than it actually is.
00:05:04.420 --> 00:05:20.067
And so-- But anyways, I think there's some legitimacy here to it, but I don't know, I don't know if there's enough evidence to prove that this is a legit objection for you not to multiply.
00:05:20.067 --> 00:05:28.509
But we're going to bring on our guest now, and he's going to set a straight to make sure that we're on the right point.
00:05:28.509 --> 00:05:31.809
Really excited to have Dave Slater.
00:05:31.810 --> 00:05:36.579
He's a church planter, lead pastor of a multiplying church at one point.
00:05:36.579 --> 00:05:41.209
He's the executive director of all things ministry in Western Ontario District in PAOC.
00:05:42.339 --> 00:05:52.028
He's an excellent communicator, pastor, leader, fundraiser, MMA fighter, professional arm wrestler, and gives the best tours of Manitoulin Island.
00:05:52.029 --> 00:05:55.899
Let's welcome Uncle Dave Slater to the podcast.
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Welcome, Dave.
00:05:57.939 --> 00:05:59.108
Great to be here, Paul.
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Great to be here, Michael.
00:06:00.790 --> 00:06:02.079
So excited.
00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:06.470
Do we want to talk about how Uncle Dave got started or should we leave that one alone?
00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:08.119
The archives.
00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:10.709
You could just watch some previous episodes.
00:06:12.050 --> 00:06:15.588
So, Dave, you sure you've been listening in on our conversation?
00:06:15.589 --> 00:06:21.738
Is this a legit, like, in your experience, like, is there legitimacy to this?
00:06:21.740 --> 00:06:29.670
Because we don't want to just like, say Ah, there is, and we just move on. But have you seen anything, where new churches can hurt existing churches?
00:06:33.569 --> 00:06:40.858
I think that planting new churches brings change.
00:06:40.860 --> 00:06:49.048
And so there is going to be some movement within existing churches. I think we just have to make room for that.
00:06:49.050 --> 00:06:51.478
But there always is movement.
00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:55.829
You know, it's not just church planting that causes the movement.
00:06:55.829 --> 00:07:06.490
So, yeah, I think there's some validity to it. But if we pan the camera out and we look at the bigger picture, there's so many more benefits.
00:07:09.790 --> 00:07:10.689
Totally.
00:07:10.689 --> 00:07:15.939
Yeah, and change always can bring uncomfortability.
00:07:15.939 --> 00:07:19.238
And with that people are like, oh, we're going to blame the new church.
00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:24.788
But it might be other things that are actually going on, with that.
00:07:24.790 --> 00:07:46.389
But let's talk a little bit about, I think, as we get, you know, talking about this, I think we actually have to maybe talk -- and, Michael, I'll pass this over to you -- on what unhealthy multiplying looks like. Because I think we're both aware that it can happen, but it doesn't have to happen.
00:07:46.389 --> 00:07:47.389
Michael, over to you.
00:07:48.660 --> 00:07:49.709
Yeah that's right.
00:07:49.709 --> 00:07:54.658
There's the healthy way to do it and then the unhealthy way to do it.
00:07:54.660 --> 00:08:04.288
And, you know, the unhealthy way of multiplication is when -- and again, we've probably all heard stories about this, right -- where it's all planned in secret.
00:08:04.290 --> 00:08:10.379
It's don't let the lead pastor find out that this is going to be happening. And it's out of frustration.
00:08:10.379 --> 00:08:13.588
And there's, you know, there's division, there's disunity.
00:08:13.589 --> 00:08:32.639
And maybe there's some wrong motivations for doing that. And, you know, the most heartbreaking part of it is maybe a staff feels like they're leaving a church or a person's leaving a church and they're almost cast out. You aren't welcome here anymore. And it's in a response of, Well, I'm going to show you then. I'm going to start a new one and this sort of thing.
00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.639
Or maybe they feel like, oh, I've escaped this church.
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You know. It was so terrible and this sort of thing. But it doesn't have to be that way.
00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:47.999
And, there's actually a healthy way of doing it where, you know, there can be a new church started that's planned with transparency.
00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:56.068
Right? It's done out of, with this kingdom mindset where the church is actually treating each other like family.
00:08:56.070 --> 00:08:59.818
Right? You don't cast a child out. No. You send a child out.
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There's unity.
00:09:01.049 --> 00:09:01.859
There's agreement.
00:09:01.860 --> 00:09:13.469
That the goal is for the kingdom, as a whole, not for one particular church, church location. And, you know, in contrast to that, that mindset of, oh, you're cast out.
00:09:13.470 --> 00:09:16.288
Or I had to escape this church to start this new thing.
00:09:16.289 --> 00:09:20.668
It's very much a sending mindset. We're sending you out.
00:09:20.669 --> 00:09:26.908
And I think what's most beautiful with a healthy, with a healthy, version of this is you're always welcome back as well.
00:09:26.909 --> 00:09:28.918
Come share how things have been.
00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:30.149
Share the stories.
00:09:30.149 --> 00:09:31.259
How can we support you?
00:09:31.259 --> 00:09:32.668
So it's not you had to escape.
00:09:32.669 --> 00:09:33.808
It's you're sent.
00:09:33.809 --> 00:09:47.980
And I think how churches start is so, so important. And how we position ourselves right at the beginning, that's going to determine is this a healthy church plant or is this an unhealthy way of doing multiplication?
00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:52.589
Great thoughts. Dave, how can we do this well?
00:09:52.590 --> 00:09:54.412
How can church plants do this well?
00:09:54.413 --> 00:10:04.649
And if you have any comments to what Michael has shared too, feel free to do that. But just, maybe pick up on the how, because I think the how really matters here.
00:10:04.649 --> 00:10:08.940
Yeah, I think I'd speak first to the idea of mission,
00:10:10.259 --> 00:10:13.859
the Great Commission.
00:10:13.860 --> 00:10:16.320
So often we get focused on ministry.
00:10:17.429 --> 00:10:28.438
But if we focus first on mission, ministry will become a vehicle to how we do mission. If we focus on ministry, often we don't get to mission.
00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:30.479
And that's what church planting is.
00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:41.969
And so, just what Michael was saying there about reframing, you know, church planting, it's not about stealing or counting numbers.
00:10:41.970 --> 00:10:43.859
It's about sending.
00:10:43.860 --> 00:10:45.629
It's about getting on mission.
00:10:45.629 --> 00:10:49.708
It's about following the directive of Jesus.
00:10:49.710 --> 00:10:59.609
I think a big one of the how, Paul, is communication is so -- Just being proactive.
00:10:59.610 --> 00:11:02.308
To have relationship.
00:11:02.309 --> 00:11:05.399
Don't show up in a community and just start something.
00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:08.489
Build. Build a ramp, build relationships.
00:11:08.490 --> 00:11:15.599
And if it's frosty, well, at least you took the posture to build relationship.
00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:26.969
And, you know, people's response isn't up to you. But I think, communication is is so, so big. And then even collaboration.
00:11:26.970 --> 00:11:29.519
Hey, we're going to plant this church together.
00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:36.688
Or sorry, we're going to plant this church. But I wonder if there are some things that we could do together along the way.
00:11:36.690 --> 00:11:38.609
So it's not an us and them.
00:11:38.610 --> 00:11:48.629
Maybe our church plant is going to be very different than an existing church, but, wow, we could gather together annually for an Easter service.
00:11:48.629 --> 00:11:53.428
We could we could join arms, lean in together on an outreach.
00:11:53.429 --> 00:11:59.759
You know, I just think there's a thousand things we could do together and be on the same team.
00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:05.940
So I think communication, I think relationship, I think posture- come in with a humility.
00:12:07.049 --> 00:12:09.990
And then, you know, that idea of collaboration.
00:12:12.149 --> 00:12:13.379
Dave, you just nailed it.
00:12:13.379 --> 00:12:20.849
And I don't know if I've had words for it until just now, about the idea of putting mission before ministry.
00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:34.489
That having another church come into your community neighborhood is actually a blessing to help you reach more people, when it's done healthy.
00:12:34.490 --> 00:12:37.729
I love that mission ministry side of things.
00:12:37.730 --> 00:12:42.798
So, when you talk about communication, Dave, just want to follow up a little bit.
00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:44.359
Who are you communicating with?
00:12:44.360 --> 00:12:45.349
So I'm a new planter.
00:12:45.350 --> 00:12:46.350
I'm coming into your area.
00:12:49.700 --> 00:13:00.659
What do you want to hear from me, as it relates to communication? Because I think we both -- I think there has been communication from both the planter and the existing church leadership.
00:13:01.730 --> 00:13:07.519
Yeah. You know, I just think, first of all, starting off with relationship.
00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:09.078
Can we go for coffee?
00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:15.139
And, even before we talk about plans, let's build some relationship here.
00:13:15.139 --> 00:13:17.479
Let's not go in cold.
00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:26.928
And maybe there's a few meetings like that, including the existing pastor or pastors or leaders in your plans.
00:13:26.929 --> 00:13:28.249
Hey, this is what we're thinking.
00:13:28.250 --> 00:13:30.649
You've been here longer.
00:13:30.649 --> 00:13:44.808
Maybe there's some things I can learn from you since you've been in this community for 25 years. You know, as a church planter, I think often we can come off a little bit like we have all the answers.
00:13:44.809 --> 00:13:48.008
So, just coming in with that posture of humility.
00:13:48.009 --> 00:13:55.879
And then the communication piece is, you know, this is what we're hoping to do.
00:13:57.740 --> 00:14:00.469
Do you have insights for us?
00:14:00.470 --> 00:14:03.318
Feedback for us?
00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:06.379
And then just communicating safety.
00:14:06.379 --> 00:14:09.619
We're a church that wants to be on mission.
00:14:09.620 --> 00:14:14.749
We're not looking to take from other churches.
00:14:14.750 --> 00:14:24.769
We'd love for other churches to send people, to send resources, but, that's something that we could talk about at another time.
00:14:24.769 --> 00:14:28.818
Just to get the ball rolling, I want you to know it's safe.
00:14:28.820 --> 00:14:36.634
And if people come over, I want us to be in communication about that as things arise, that we can always journey together.
00:14:38.870 --> 00:14:45.219
Yeah. Dave, you mentioning that, that's really -- I want to just affirm how important that is.
00:14:45.220 --> 00:15:15.188
So, in our context, when we started a new church in Binbrook and then a new church in Dundas, one of the first things that our team did was we sent an email to each of the established churches, saying that exact thing. And I would, just, I would give that advice to any church planter or anyone involved in multiplication, is we emailed every, every church and said, hey, just so you know, this is what our name is, here's our website, here's what we're thinking.
00:15:15.190 --> 00:15:18.099
And we literally had that line.
00:15:18.100 --> 00:15:22.889
Our intention is not to take anyone from your local church.
00:15:22.889 --> 00:15:25.778
We are trying to reach new people in this community.
00:15:25.779 --> 00:15:41.678
And you know, it made it really, it's just this beautiful moment when I did end up meeting in person these different leaders, for them to know, oh, they took the time to say they're not, you know, trying to sheep steal, trying to just get a bunch of church transfers.
00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:46.658
It just gave it such a good start. And we did that in both cases.
00:15:46.659 --> 00:15:58.119
And I, yeah, I would recommend that to everyone involved in multiplication. To just being very blunt and to even say this is not our intention to do this. And I just think it creates unity, right? Which is important.
00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:02.739
And you modeled this in Binbrook, didn't you, Michael?
00:16:02.740 --> 00:16:12.879
Maybe you've got a couple stories here because, you know, walking in humility, walking in that mission first mindset is incredibly important.
00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:15.068
Thanks, Dave, for sharing that.
00:16:15.070 --> 00:16:16.839
Can you give us examples of that?
00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:22.298
I know that you mentioned you sent emails to everyone, but I mean, just getting to know the community, too.
00:16:22.299 --> 00:16:26.619
It's not just a relationship with the pastors in the area.
00:16:26.620 --> 00:16:30.519
You all need to start a relationship with the community.
00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:35.379
You have to walk in humility before the community, because that's who you're there to reach.
00:16:37.019 --> 00:16:38.438
Yeah, yeah. That's right.
00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:40.619
Well, because it really comes down to evangelism.
00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:41.609
It's like what you said, Dave.
00:16:41.610 --> 00:16:43.078
It's about mission.
00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:44.519
What is what is the point of this?
00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:47.188
Oh, right, we're trying to make new disciples.
00:16:47.190 --> 00:17:15.138
If if all this is, is gathering different people that are already part of our faith, coming to-- that already know Jesus, well then, what's the point? It makes no difference. But this is about new conversions and new disciples of Jesus. So I just remember when we were, yeah, when we were starting in Binbrook, I remember I would just go to, you know, I was I was in my 20s, so I would go to the skate park and just hang out with as many, you know, young adults as possible.
00:17:15.140 --> 00:17:17.388
And I'd start these conversations.
00:17:17.390 --> 00:17:22.519
I remember the big kind of event in Binbrook is the Binbrook Fall Fair.
00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:25.607
If you're ever around, you should come. We've got a derby.
00:17:25.608 --> 00:17:27.199
It's a lot of fun.
00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:33.558
But I remember going home to my wife, one day and saying, hey, I signed up to volunteer at the fair.
00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:38.298
She said, wow, what do you what are you volunteering in? And I said, I'm volunteering in the photography department.
00:17:38.299 --> 00:17:40.929
She looks at me. She says, but you don't have a camera.
00:17:40.930 --> 00:17:46.848
And I'm like, that's fine, I'm going to borrow one. And then she says, but you don't know how to take pictures. I said, that's fine.
00:17:46.849 --> 00:17:47.628
I'm going to learn.
00:17:47.630 --> 00:17:48.858
Don't worry about it.
00:17:48.859 --> 00:18:04.308
And I just figured, you know, to go in and serve the community, meet as many people as possible. And in the photography department, it gave me permission to, in a non awkward way, go talk to as many people as I could and say, hey, can I take your picture?
00:18:04.309 --> 00:18:07.548
Where, I'm in the photography department. Oh, what's your name?
00:18:07.549 --> 00:18:09.588
Oh that's great. How long have you lived here?
00:18:09.589 --> 00:18:10.878
I just moved here.
00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:12.229
We're starting the new church.
00:18:12.230 --> 00:18:16.068
Yeah. And just how many-- You know, dozens and dozens.
00:18:16.069 --> 00:18:22.548
Maybe a hundred or so conversations that weekend, telling people about the new church and kind of the heart behind the church.
00:18:22.549 --> 00:18:23.778
And it was so beautiful.
00:18:23.779 --> 00:18:30.979
We, by the end of that, I talked to my one friend, John, and we just had a really good conversation with God.
00:18:30.980 --> 00:18:52.038
And at the very end of our convo, he said, yeah, I guess I could give God a shot. I guess I could give him a shot. And it was it was really exciting because that was actually our church's, like Mountainside Church's, our history, it was our first kind of ministry win, of whoa, we've talked to someone about Jesus and they're open about Jesus.
00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:56.383
And I went and I told that story for the next, you know, eight months as we are prepping to launch.
00:18:56.384 --> 00:19:06.169
I would tell that story of my friend John of, Yeah, there's people here waiting to hear about Jesus. And there's been so many more more stories. We don't have time to get into them all.
00:19:06.170 --> 00:19:09.318
But it's -- that's the purpose ofa new churches.
00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:10.788
That's the purpose of multiplication.
00:19:10.789 --> 00:19:14.118
It's not who can we convince from the other churches to come?
00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:24.269
It's who are -- who is not a part of a church right now, that God has opened their heart, they're ready to receive, and we just need to be obedient and go out there and do the mission.
00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:26.420
100%.
00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:28.659
Great.
00:19:28.660 --> 00:19:33.788
One of the things, though, that we all know -- Dave, you have been a part of a church plant as well.
00:19:33.789 --> 00:19:39.159
You were, a lead pastor of a sending church, multiplying church.
00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:41.750
Michael, I'll want you to comment on this as well.
00:19:42.859 --> 00:19:49.249
But people do come from other churches to check it out, and they might be looking for a change.
00:19:49.250 --> 00:19:52.765
Like, Dave, any thoughts on how we can navigate this well?
00:19:52.766 --> 00:20:03.019
Like, you go in and say we're not here to sheep steal. We're not dadadada...you know. And then they end up at your church. And like, we didn't recruit, but they're still here.
00:20:03.019 --> 00:20:12.439
Like, how can church planters and existing leaders navigate this kind of, you know, awkwardness maybe?
00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:14.598
Maybe it's not awkward.
00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:16.128
Dave, any thoughts?
00:20:16.130 --> 00:20:18.288
Have you had this happen before?
00:20:18.289 --> 00:20:43.638
Yeah. You know, what's ironic is when we went multi-site, I took a sabbatical just before we launched. And there was a whole crowd of people while I was away that lined up to go with the new church launch. And, I came back and I had a couple of moments there where I was looking in the mirror and asking myself, just those insecurity questions, you know?
00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:47.689
And they were good people, like some of our key, key people.
00:20:47.690 --> 00:20:55.788
I guess what I would tell an existing church pastor is everybody who goes doesn't always stay.
00:20:57.380 --> 00:21:05.179
And the number of people who actually came back, in time, for multiple reasons.
00:21:05.180 --> 00:21:11.210
So I think there's, again, panning out the camera, and looking at time.
00:21:12.769 --> 00:21:18.469
The other thing I would say is that God fills in the holes.
00:21:18.470 --> 00:21:20.882
I'm just saying this to reassure pastors.
00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:24.528
I know what you asked, Paul, but just reassuring pastors.
00:21:24.529 --> 00:21:29.660
So as a planter, I would also say it really comes down to communication.
00:21:30.980 --> 00:21:33.858
Picking up the phone, not email.
00:21:33.859 --> 00:21:36.108
Hey, can we get a coffee again?
00:21:36.109 --> 00:21:49.159
I just wanted you to know, these three families and this individual have been coming a couple of weeks, and I know none of these people belong to us. It's the body of Christ.
00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:51.648
But I just wanted you to be aware.
00:21:51.650 --> 00:21:58.128
I know that can be an awkward conversation, depending on the dynamics, but you'll never regret that.
00:21:58.130 --> 00:22:00.528
So I just would say communication.
00:22:02.410 --> 00:22:09.489
And, why stop? Like, why ever stop the communication with other pastors in your community?
00:22:09.490 --> 00:22:12.710
Like, to me, that's just a normal, should be an everyday.
00:22:12.711 --> 00:22:21.429
Show up at ministerial meetings. Show up at different events that they put on, where the pastor's families get together.
00:22:21.430 --> 00:22:25.749
My dad pastored in a church almost 30 years, small town, northern Alberta.
00:22:25.750 --> 00:22:27.638
He was like leading the ministerial.
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:34.358
He would help provide a golf tournament and all these different things to get the pastors and their parishioners together.
00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:36.068
So they just got to know each other.
00:22:36.069 --> 00:22:38.288
It's not a negative thing.
00:22:38.289 --> 00:22:43.009
Michael, you got a great story about when you started planting in Binbrook.
00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:51.128
Another planter was starting that same time and you guys went out for coffee, had that conversation.
00:22:51.130 --> 00:23:00.319
Tell that story quickly, because I think it's such a cool story on how you guys put mission ahead of your own ministry.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:03.538
Yeah, yeah. That's right.
00:23:03.539 --> 00:23:08.398
So we were starting a church at a similar time as someone else.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:12.028
And I remember we're looking at each other. We're feeling this is awkward.
00:23:12.029 --> 00:23:14.038
But you know what? This is about the kingdom.
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:26.578
And we launched a little bit before them. And I remember I as I got to know, as I got to know them and, you know, making sure they're legit. We're on the same page, we're trying to accomplish the same thing.
00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:47.729
I remember we called him forward as he was launching, on one of our Sunday services, and we prayed for them. We took up an offering for them. And I really felt like it was the right thing to do, to say, hey, if you need to go and help start this other new church, you have our blessing to go and help. And I remember, I think it was just one person, but one person left.
00:23:47.730 --> 00:23:52.169
And yeah, it's like, I know that feeling, Dave. It's like, wait, you're actually leaving?
00:23:52.170 --> 00:23:53.439
Oh, no. But you know what?
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:58.648
It was the reason why we kind of had this mindset, was it was modelled to us.
00:23:58.650 --> 00:24:12.628
So we had a church in Burlington that was very supportive to us when we, you know, just half an hour away. And then we had another church in Hamilton just, you know, 20 minutes away that were both very supportive of us, that they called us to the front.
00:24:12.630 --> 00:24:15.239
And they said, they said the same thing.
00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:19.739
If you feel led to go help this start this new church, you have the freedom to do that.
00:24:19.740 --> 00:24:29.009
And I remember the arrangement we had, and maybe this isn't the arrangement that works for every context, but just for our context, was with both of these lead pastors that were supporting us.
00:24:29.009 --> 00:24:34.828
They said, please don't go approach people and try to recruit them and ask them to come.
00:24:34.829 --> 00:24:42.058
But if someone approaches you, feel free to, you know, turn your sales hat on and be like, yeah, you should totally do this.
00:24:42.059 --> 00:24:50.459
This is awesome, and cast vision for that. And I remember there were certain people where I was like, oh, I just really want to ask them to come with us.
00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:52.858
They would just be amazing.
00:24:52.859 --> 00:25:04.409
But just trying to honor these churches that have been so gracious to us and, and, you know, telling myself, I'm not going to do that because this is a healthy arrangement that we've worked out.
00:25:04.410 --> 00:25:17.429
And it was just a really cool moment how we were able to do that with another church. And then as we started our Dundas church, it was the same thing. There was another church in town that was starting and we called them up.
00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:18.959
We took an offering for them.
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.638
And someone left.
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:27.269
And Paul and Dave, you'll appreciate the pain here. It was one of our drummers. We had two drummers and one of our drummers left.
00:25:27.269 --> 00:25:29.969
And I was thinking, what have I done? What have I done?
00:25:29.970 --> 00:25:31.078
But you know what?
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:34.078
Some people may see this as, Well that's just being foolish.
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:37.259
What are you doing? But I truly don't see it as foolish.
00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:39.269
I see it as being kingdom minded.
00:25:39.269 --> 00:25:42.509
Is the kingdom of God is going to be taken care of.
00:25:42.509 --> 00:25:46.259
And that's what we need to think about, not our own individual setting.
00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:50.398
Yeah. And and so there's two sides to this coin.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:53.759
You know, you have to be as a planter be honoring.
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:55.199
Don't be sheep stealing.
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:56.729
Don't be recruiting.
00:25:56.730 --> 00:26:06.378
Be communicating with the existing pastor. And then the existing pastors, you have an opportunity here to be a sender.
00:26:06.380 --> 00:26:10.519
You have an opportunity to do what happened in in Michael's case.
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:13.249
And then he, you know, did that again.
00:26:13.250 --> 00:26:19.429
Wouldn't that be great for us to have that kingdom mindset over and over and over when it comes to multiplication?
00:26:19.430 --> 00:26:23.298
Because, because in that case, then we're helping the kingdom.
00:26:23.299 --> 00:26:24.078
And you know what?
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:43.038
When you send some people, that's another opportunity for God to send you some people to fill in those gaps, where you pray them in, and you have an opportunity to see leaders who maybe were, you know, waiting in the wings now get to step up because there's a vacancy, there's a leadership vacuum that's there.
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:45.229
And it's hard to send.
00:26:45.230 --> 00:26:47.269
It's really hard to send.
00:26:47.269 --> 00:26:50.598
But they're not ours to keep.
00:26:50.599 --> 00:26:58.308
Jesus is one who's in charge. He's the one who's in charge of their plan for their life, not you.
00:26:58.309 --> 00:27:03.469
I know, pastors, you think you have everyone's plan sorted out and everything.
00:27:03.470 --> 00:27:08.778
We're here to help Jesus move people closer to Him.
00:27:08.779 --> 00:27:10.548
That's it in the end.
00:27:10.549 --> 00:27:12.348
So we want to be senders.
00:27:12.349 --> 00:27:15.588
And, thanks both of you for sharing that.
00:27:15.589 --> 00:27:27.409
Now, Dave, Tim Keller, you know, one of the incredible voices, thinkers of our day, really passionate about urban church planting specifically.
00:27:27.410 --> 00:27:30.558
But he raised some points in the book Why Plant Churches?
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:35.489
And, I had come across this and then came across this again.
00:27:35.490 --> 00:27:40.159
I'd come across it sometime ago, came across it again recently as we're preparing for this podcast.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:47.538
And he shares some things on how new churches can actually help existing churches.
00:27:47.539 --> 00:27:49.799
Dave, why don't you run through some of those with us?
00:27:50.990 --> 00:27:59.509
Yeah, I was really struck, Paul, and I'd read it before, but, more of the outcome that Keller touches on.
00:28:00.589 --> 00:28:07.848
He lists, and I just summarized them in my own words, six things that happen when we start new churches.
00:28:07.849 --> 00:28:17.028
New churches equal reaching new people groups, new believers, new ideas, new leaders, new perspective and new growth.
00:28:17.029 --> 00:28:35.169
And so, you know, just leaning in, as an existing church, to church planting takes us out of the status quo and brings us into motion and, again, on to mission.
00:28:35.170 --> 00:28:42.759
And I just, I want to hammer on this for a second, Paul. We are an apostolic movement.
00:28:44.170 --> 00:28:48.009
And to be apostolic, it means to be sent.
00:28:48.009 --> 00:28:49.209
It means to break.
00:28:49.210 --> 00:28:54.489
It means to break ground, and it means to take risks.
00:28:54.490 --> 00:28:57.470
I love what Allen Hirsch, said.
00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:01.490
A little bit of danger is good for us.
00:29:03.099 --> 00:29:24.199
And I think that's what Keller is getting at, that if we are going to, if we're going to be about the Great Commission, we have to step out of our comfort zone and take these risks, both as planting churches and existing churches.
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:29.209
And, and so I just, that's what I hear Tim getting at in this article.
00:29:30.529 --> 00:29:44.239
Yeah. And and he also talks a little bit about how new churches bring new ideas to the whole body. How new churches are one of the best places to identify creative, strong leaders for the whole body.
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:49.308
New churches challenge other churches with self-examination, those types of things.
00:29:49.309 --> 00:29:54.199
And also new churches may be an evangelistic feeder for the whole community.
00:29:54.200 --> 00:30:00.828
They help other churches be kingdom minded. Like, I've seen that before.
00:30:00.829 --> 00:30:10.909
Where a new church comes in and, you know, if you're a district or denomination, you kind of highlight that. Like, look at how they're reaching people.
00:30:10.910 --> 00:30:16.969
And all of a sudden that sparks a new idea in an existing pastor. I've seen it over and over and over again.
00:30:16.970 --> 00:30:17.970
And so I think-- Go ahead, Dave.
00:30:19.460 --> 00:30:21.055
No, it's permission giving too.
00:30:21.056 --> 00:30:22.459
You know.
00:30:22.460 --> 00:30:26.598
Yes, it's the creativity and the ideas.
00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:39.199
But, when things are working, existing churches can go to their leadership teams, their treasurers, their boards and say, hey, you know, we've all heard about what's happening over there.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:41.088
Why don't we try that here?
00:30:41.089 --> 00:30:44.269
And it gives permission to existing churches.
00:30:44.269 --> 00:30:50.670
The other thing that Keller highlights, is it platforms new leaders.
00:30:53.299 --> 00:30:58.470
And it allows for more people. And here's Jesus' prayer, isn't it?
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:02.118
You know, pray to the Lord of the harvest to send out workers.
00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:06.378
And so planting churches raises up new leaders.
00:31:06.380 --> 00:31:09.679
So all these things together are just such a huge benefit.
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:10.519
You know what?
00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:15.078
You know that Rich Wilkerson Jr has a quote.
00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:16.459
This relates perfectly.
00:31:16.460 --> 00:31:19.578
Where he is developing these leaders and, you know, different churches.
00:31:19.579 --> 00:31:22.098
They're going to different places and this sort of thing.
00:31:22.099 --> 00:31:26.749
And someone asked him, what if you develop all these leaders and then they just leave?
00:31:26.750 --> 00:31:34.529
You know, like what do you do with that? And his response back is, Well, what if I don't develop them and then they stay.
00:31:35.450 --> 00:31:49.249
You know, that's way worse to have someone who has the capacity to be a leader just sitting in your pew doing nothing versus, yeah, we're raising up leaders and we're actually sending them out. And that's actually okay.
00:31:49.250 --> 00:31:50.659
That's not actually okay.
00:31:50.660 --> 00:31:51.588
It's the goal.
00:31:51.589 --> 00:32:03.709
It's the goal. Don't keep our -- You know, when we're talking about being a sending church, let's send our best, you know. Let's not send our, Ah, they're all right. We won't really miss them them. Here you go.
00:32:03.710 --> 00:32:08.058
Let's send our best just with that mindset of, you know, we will reap what we sow.
00:32:08.059 --> 00:32:12.138
And we actually believe that God means that when He put that in Scripture.
00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:13.490
So I think it's important to do.
00:32:14.702 --> 00:32:16.169
Great thoughts.
00:32:16.170 --> 00:32:21.913
Just as I was sitting back listening to both of you share and specifically a thought around, Dave, platforming.
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:35.739
I think if you're a district or national leader, one of our most important things that we can do is platforming the right people, the right stories.
00:32:35.740 --> 00:32:52.929
And I think that's a great way where we show, hey, look, the new churches are helping the existing churches. Or here's a story of Michael Bronson, who got sent by two other churches and people-- You know, just telling these stories, I think, Dave, you're absolutely right.
00:32:52.930 --> 00:32:56.409
Share. Give permission to the existing churches.
00:32:56.410 --> 00:32:58.479
Go, Hey, maybe we can be creative.
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:00.189
Maybe we can be generous.
00:33:00.190 --> 00:33:04.929
Maybe we can focus on leadership development.
00:33:04.930 --> 00:33:10.388
Dave, before we move on, I just want to--. Do you have any more thoughts about that or any comments?
00:33:10.390 --> 00:33:17.348
I just --. I'm a little bit overwhelmed by the need and how the need continues to grow.
00:33:17.349 --> 00:33:24.670
I was looking at some stats that, you know, our nation has grown by 10 million people over the last handful of years.
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:28.359
But the church has actually shrunk.
00:33:30.970 --> 00:33:37.150
I think it was between 5 and 8% of Canadians attend church.
00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:44.199
So 2 million people out of 40, some people say 41 million people.
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:46.568
So the pie is not shrinking.
00:33:46.569 --> 00:33:47.569
It's growing.
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:52.148
But the church is shrinking.
00:33:52.150 --> 00:33:59.378
And so the idea that, well, we can't have any new churches because--.
00:33:59.380 --> 00:34:03.368
On the contrary, we're not keeping up.
00:34:03.369 --> 00:34:06.999
And we have to get back to being missional.
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:12.907
We have to lean in like we've never leaned in before and step up with the radical faith.
00:34:12.909 --> 00:34:15.608
We don't need one other church in that community.
00:34:15.610 --> 00:34:26.528
We need ten new churches in that community. And what's so hopeful - I don't want to be negative - What's so hopeful is many of these new Canadians will engage with the gospel.
00:34:26.530 --> 00:34:28.958
I've experienced this myself.
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:37.838
Talking to Preet, talking to Mo, talking to Sandle. These are people that I've talked to and they want to hear more.
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:43.657
When you begin a spiritual conversation with them, they will engage with you.
00:34:43.659 --> 00:34:46.478
And the mission field has come to Canada.
00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:57.759
So I would just say that, now, like never, we need to accelerate at church planting and get excited about what God's doing.
00:34:57.760 --> 00:34:58.929
Well said, Dave.
00:34:58.929 --> 00:35:00.398
Well said.
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:01.659
Thank you for sharing that.
00:35:02.710 --> 00:35:04.568
So we need new churches.
00:35:04.570 --> 00:35:09.668
Let's not let this objection get in the way, in any shape or form.
00:35:09.670 --> 00:35:13.179
There's healthy ways to do multiplication.
00:35:13.179 --> 00:35:15.248
So Michael, you're the Bible guy.
00:35:15.250 --> 00:35:16.929
Bring us, bring us a scripture.
00:35:16.929 --> 00:35:18.969
Bring us a thought from Acts 13.
00:35:20.289 --> 00:35:25.778
Yeah, there's just this beautiful example of what healthy multiplication looks like.
00:35:25.780 --> 00:35:30.429
And it's not at all about, Let's grow by transfer or sheep stealing.
00:35:30.429 --> 00:35:32.228
It's all about sending.
00:35:32.230 --> 00:35:37.119
"Now in the church of Antioch, there were prophets and teachers.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:44.528
Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, Mananean..." We were making the joke recently, no one ever talks about that guy.
00:35:44.530 --> 00:35:46.059
His name is too hard to pronounce.
00:35:46.059 --> 00:35:47.108
"...and Saul.
00:35:47.110 --> 00:35:54.068
While they're worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, set apart Barnabas and Saul for the work which I've called them to do." So look what it says.
00:35:54.070 --> 00:35:55.929
"So they fasted and prayed.
00:35:55.929 --> 00:35:58.298
They placed their hands on them." And what did they do?
00:35:58.300 --> 00:36:12.068
"They sent them off." And we're talking about Barnabas and Saul here, as in the Apostle Paul. So here's Antioch sending out their very best to go and multiply.
00:36:12.070 --> 00:36:16.458
And I just think what an example for us to follow.
00:36:16.460 --> 00:36:28.501
Brilliant. Jerry Berenguer - both of us know who he is, great prolific planter, leader, apostolic leader - said this on a cohort I was on.
00:36:28.503 --> 00:36:34.778
He said, Until you believe that the church is family, you will never send your best.
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.708
He says, When you believe church is family, you'll always send your best. But guess what?
00:36:40.710 --> 00:36:43.800
Organizational thinking is you always keep your best.
00:36:45.139 --> 00:36:46.878
And that's the difference.
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:47.880
And so they --.
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:51.679
So, just a great thought from Jerry there.
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:52.969
I had lunch with him last week.
00:36:52.969 --> 00:36:57.228
Just beautiful, beautiful story of what's happening there in his church.
00:36:57.230 --> 00:36:59.119
So, here's the counter statement.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:00.858
Here's the counter statement.
00:37:00.860 --> 00:37:21.139
Healthy new churches aim to grow from new disciples rather than from existing churches, and desire to handle church transfers in a loving and kingdom minded way, and maybe can influence in a positive way existing churches around them.
00:37:21.139 --> 00:37:34.548
I think we would all agree with that. And since we do agree with that, what are some next practical steps that we can do to see more multiplication happen?
00:37:34.550 --> 00:37:38.989
And, maybe it's a bit of a summary of what we've talked about already.
00:37:38.989 --> 00:37:40.400
Dave, we'll go to you first.
00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:42.889
Any any thoughts on that?
00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:48.260
I think we need to identify our next step and then we need to jump.
00:37:50.659 --> 00:37:54.778
I think that we think about things a lot.
00:37:54.780 --> 00:37:56.309
We pray about things a lot.
00:37:56.309 --> 00:37:57.706
We talk about things a lot.
00:37:57.708 --> 00:38:07.438
But we actually need to, we need to take that step of faith and not play it safe.
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:11.188
And so the practical step is taking the risk.
00:38:11.190 --> 00:38:23.039
I remember when we were sitting around the table, at District Executive in WOD, talking about getting a full time director for church multiplication.
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:26.728
And it came around to talking about money.
00:38:26.730 --> 00:38:39.750
And one of the seasoned leaders spoke up around the table and said, I think it's time for us to step out in faith where we really need a miracle from God.
00:38:41.719 --> 00:38:53.958
And so I just think, practically, Paul, we need to step out into a place where we need God to come through, in our own lives, as a movement.
00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:56.510
We need to take some fresh risks.
00:38:57.769 --> 00:38:58.871
So that would be my two cents.
00:38:59.989 --> 00:39:01.369
Wonderful. Great thoughts.
00:39:01.369 --> 00:39:02.420
Michael, your thoughts?
00:39:03.789 --> 00:39:06.639
Yeah, I would just challenge all the church planters.
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:08.469
Anyone involved with multiplication.
00:39:08.469 --> 00:39:17.559
Don't sheep steal on purpose, okay? Be transparent with with how you're approaching people from other churches and this sort of thing.
00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:27.579
And just keep in mind, remember, there's no point in starting your new church if it ends up hurting or killing another church. You know, that's not actually progress.
00:39:27.579 --> 00:39:29.559
It's just moving people around.
00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:30.728
Do it in a healthy way.
00:39:30.730 --> 00:39:33.099
And we do that by focusing on evangelism. Right?
00:39:33.099 --> 00:39:45.338
And listen, it's way harder to make a new disciple, versus just collecting some different disciples. But that's what we're called to do. And then if it does end up happening and transfers happen. Listen.
00:39:45.340 --> 00:39:46.389
Yeah, you need a base.
00:39:46.389 --> 00:39:48.398
Absolutely. It's going to happen.
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:52.628
Pray those people in, you know, and, you know, I wonder if we should be praying for free agents.
00:39:52.630 --> 00:39:55.311
You know, the people that have just moved to town.
00:39:55.311 --> 00:39:58.059
They actually don't belong to a church yet.
00:39:58.059 --> 00:40:00.728
And they're looking for a church to support and get behind.
00:40:00.730 --> 00:40:01.661
Pray for those free agents.
00:40:01.661 --> 00:40:03.878
And listen, if you're an established
00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:10.148
Be a sending church. It doesn't mean you need to carry the entire weight.
00:40:10.150 --> 00:40:15.608
Maybe it means partnering with a handful of other churches and saying, Let's all send this person together.
00:40:16.677 --> 00:40:22.898
When it hurts, when some of our best people leave, remember, it's an investment into the kingdom.
00:40:22.900 --> 00:40:24.909
It's actually not about you.
00:40:24.909 --> 00:40:28.208
And, we already talked about it, but I, I really believe we reap what we
00:40:30.130 --> 00:40:31.628
God fills the gaps.
00:40:31.630 --> 00:40:40.719
If a worship leader is gone, I really believe that God has for us either a new worship leader to come, or someone to be raised up into that role.
00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:45.009
And let's do it in a healthy way, because it's a beautiful thing when it happens.
00:40:45.010 --> 00:40:47.048
What a great podcast, you guys.
00:40:47.050 --> 00:40:48.518
We should hire you full time.
00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:49.688
Take the step of faith.
00:40:50.769 --> 00:40:54.248
Thanks. Thanks, Dave, so much for those great thoughts.
00:40:54.250 --> 00:40:58.268
We know you lean in so well to multiplication in Canada.
00:40:58.269 --> 00:41:04.989
Your heart is so impassioned for new starts all over Canada.
00:41:04.989 --> 00:41:17.679
And when you read those stats, we can't help but feel the urgency and the burden to see new disciple making communities started, so that every Canadian can have an access point to the gospel.
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:22.659
So really appreciate you taking the time to be with us today.
00:41:22.659 --> 00:41:31.418
And it was an NCN call- New Churches Network call - Dave, that I think you were leading, when Glyn Barrett, was leading.
00:41:31.420 --> 00:41:39.429
And he said, you can be one of two leaders. You can be a one day leader, meaning we'll do that one day.
00:41:39.429 --> 00:41:41.858
One day down the road we'll be a sending church.
00:41:41.860 --> 00:41:44.889
One day down the road we'll be a multiplying church.
00:41:44.889 --> 00:41:52.239
One day down the road we'll be -- we'll start an entrepreneurial plant -- we'll start a church.
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:55.208
Or you could be a day one leader.
00:41:55.210 --> 00:41:58.958
And this could be your day one.
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:00.759
Day one of being a sending church.
00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:09.429
Day one of being a multiplying church. Day one of you being the founding pastor of a new disciple making community.
00:42:09.429 --> 00:42:12.291
We're praying for you today, that this would be day one.
00:42:12.291 --> 00:42:23.619
That you would feel impassioned and excited to reach people far from God in this amazing nation of Canada.
00:42:23.619 --> 00:42:26.378
So, Dave, thanks for your time today. Thanks for jumping on.
00:42:26.380 --> 00:42:32.768
Michael, thanks, as always for leaning in so well and appreciate all of you.
00:42:32.769 --> 00:42:37.938
Just before we go, we talk about this idea of every church a multiplying church.
00:42:37.940 --> 00:42:46.119
Whether you're in a denomination or a fellowship or a network, we're here to help however we can.
00:42:46.119 --> 00:43:05.608
And if there's something that, you know, you want resources on, or if there's some way that we can help you --. In our particular movement, in the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, we're asking every church in our fellowship to be a multiplying church by starting one or funding or partnering with one.
00:43:05.608 --> 00:43:09.909
Because we think even in small and big ways, you can partner.
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:21.101
When you listen to sports reporters and they interview people who are in a slump, people who are in a bit of a drought in their career, in their sport, you
00:43:22.300 --> 00:43:27.969
we're looking to contribute in other ways.
00:43:27.969 --> 00:43:33.159
And maybe you're in a church right now that can't start a new disciple making community. You can partner.
00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:41.228
You can send people over to help them. You can -- To do work bees. You can send the pastor a gift card for a date night.
00:43:41.230 --> 00:43:44.438
You can send some funds their way and take up an offering.
00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:46.599
There's lots of ways to partner.
00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:55.929
There's just no way we're going to reach Canada without working together. Every single denomination, every network, all of us in together.
00:43:55.929 --> 00:43:57.099
And why wouldn't we?
00:43:57.099 --> 00:44:01.208
Because we have the greatest story ever told.
00:44:01.210 --> 00:44:05.619
And I think it was Mark Twain who said the best storyteller wins the generation.
00:44:05.619 --> 00:44:07.179
Well, we have the best story.
00:44:07.179 --> 00:44:09.938
Let's be the best story tellers.
00:44:09.940 --> 00:44:11.259
Thanks so much for tuning in.
00:44:11.260 --> 00:44:14.139
We'll have objection number five in our next podcast.
00:44:14.139 --> 00:44:16.340
Thanks so much for listening right to the end.
00:44:17.409 --> 00:44:18.668
Well, thanks for listening today.
00:44:18.670 --> 00:44:21.188
We trust this conversation was encouraging.
00:44:21.190 --> 00:44:27.608
If you want more information on church multiplication resources, or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey,
00:44:28.590 --> 00:44:29.590
MultiplyNetwork@paoc.org.
00:44:32.500 --> 00:44:33.500
Until next time.
