Ep #14: Patrick Lewis (Klay): Founding Designer x4, and the Art of Saying No

WEBVTT
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
00:00:04.443 --> 00:00:08.043
Tom: Hello, welcome to the Near
Future podcast where, this week
00:00:08.043 --> 00:00:13.563
Johnny and myself are with Patrick
Lewis, who is a product designer at
00:00:13.563 --> 00:00:16.203
the forefront of working with ai.
00:00:16.923 --> 00:00:19.983
Patrick and I briefly worked
together, or slightly overlapped.
00:00:20.343 --> 00:00:23.823
I had 10 years ago now I was leaving
Buzzfeed and you were joining, and then
00:00:23.823 --> 00:00:27.603
you've gone on to do various exciting
things with various startups, speaking
00:00:27.603 --> 00:00:31.893
with Y Combinator, with founding
teams, all sorts of exciting things.
00:00:32.853 --> 00:00:35.913
and the specific reason I wanted to
invite you on to have this discussion
00:00:35.913 --> 00:00:38.493
today is when we caught up earlier
this year, about six months ago.
00:00:39.153 --> 00:00:44.863
The, this, the way you were working
as a designer using AI coding tools
00:00:45.103 --> 00:00:50.113
was really blowing my mind at how,
advanced you could get and how far
00:00:50.113 --> 00:00:51.343
into production you could take your
00:00:51.368 --> 00:00:51.758
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:00:51.883 --> 00:00:54.463
Tom: So that was a, a really inspiring.
00:00:54.793 --> 00:00:55.273
so thank you for
00:00:55.400 --> 00:00:56.360
Patrick Lewis: Yeah, thanks for having me.
00:00:56.570 --> 00:00:57.230
Excited to be here.
00:00:57.230 --> 00:00:57.710
Tom: Great.
00:00:57.810 --> 00:01:00.480
Perhaps you could give us a quick
overview of, where you are, where
00:01:00.480 --> 00:01:04.290
you're working today, and, what you
are, what you've been up to the last
00:01:04.488 --> 00:01:05.148
Patrick Lewis: Yeah, sure.
00:01:05.310 --> 00:01:05.880
Tom: work-wise.
00:01:05.928 --> 00:01:08.628
Patrick Lewis: I'm currently the founding
designer of a company called Clay.
00:01:08.838 --> 00:01:13.158
that's Clay with a k, not the,
not the sales automation tool.
00:01:14.158 --> 00:01:21.688
clay is a, is a music app, that
allows users to, hear their favourite
00:01:21.688 --> 00:01:27.748
songs in a completely new way, and
really feel like artists themselves.
00:01:28.748 --> 00:01:34.058
it is an AI music app, however, it's an AI
music app that was started by musicians.
00:01:34.388 --> 00:01:37.418
I'm pretty sure everyone at
the company is a musician.
00:01:37.418 --> 00:01:41.678
Our CEO is a classically
trained like touring, pianist.
00:01:41.738 --> 00:01:47.868
And, and we, even the other
co-founder used to run, Sony, music.
00:01:47.898 --> 00:01:51.658
And we're folks who deeply care about
artists and we're actually trying to
00:01:51.658 --> 00:01:58.508
make music a, a first class, medium,
in the way that like video is today.
00:01:59.508 --> 00:02:04.698
and before Clay, I was the founder
and CEO of a company called Tortuga.
00:02:05.688 --> 00:02:08.418
Tortuga started as an ai, app studio.
00:02:09.228 --> 00:02:12.708
but after building three apps, we
realised, just 'cause you build it
00:02:12.708 --> 00:02:14.238
doesn't necessarily mean they'll come.
00:02:14.268 --> 00:02:17.958
And so we began to focus on
building a suite of distribution
00:02:17.958 --> 00:02:20.838
tools, for other builders.
00:02:21.828 --> 00:02:26.808
and, yeah, that's, what I've been up
to in the last year and a half or so.
00:02:27.808 --> 00:02:28.258
Tom: Excellent.
00:02:28.258 --> 00:02:32.938
And I, feel like there's a, a, a theme
in your work around, or those examples in
00:02:32.938 --> 00:02:38.678
particular around content and creativity.
00:02:38.708 --> 00:02:41.828
So whether that's in music or I
know some of your go to market
00:02:41.985 --> 00:02:42.465
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:02:42.938 --> 00:02:46.298
Tom: video avatars and things like this.
00:02:46.718 --> 00:02:51.968
I, wonder if you could just tell us what
it's like from the frontier in terms of
00:02:52.968 --> 00:02:55.908
role in relation to content creation.
00:02:56.088 --> 00:03:02.528
do you have any, are there that transcend
those two, areas you've worked in?
00:03:02.948 --> 00:03:03.593
tell us more about that.
00:03:04.401 --> 00:03:05.061
Patrick Lewis: big question.
00:03:05.061 --> 00:03:05.091
I.
00:03:06.091 --> 00:03:10.321
There's, definitely like an underlying
thing where the human is still
00:03:10.441 --> 00:03:12.661
the most important piece of this.
00:03:12.661 --> 00:03:17.741
So obviously when we talk about clay,
we're talking about musicians, an artist.
00:03:18.221 --> 00:03:23.381
we're trying to elevate them and, level
the playing field a bit, compared to
00:03:23.381 --> 00:03:25.151
some of the other music platforms.
00:03:26.151 --> 00:03:31.421
but I think content, I don't know, like
it has to resonate with the people, even
00:03:31.421 --> 00:03:36.531
if it's, even if it's AI avatars or,
talking to you on TikTok or whatever.
00:03:36.531 --> 00:03:39.921
Ultimately at the end of the day,
you're still trying to talk to a person.
00:03:39.921 --> 00:03:43.341
And so if the message doesn't
resonate, then it it's a waste.
00:03:43.341 --> 00:03:47.671
And, I think the same thing with
like generative music where, bad
00:03:47.671 --> 00:03:49.171
generative music is just noise.
00:03:50.171 --> 00:03:53.961
and, and yeah, I think
there's, something there.
00:03:53.961 --> 00:03:59.241
And Tom, I know when we, caught up earlier
this year, I think I maybe showed you,
00:04:00.241 --> 00:04:02.251
at Tortuga we were running a newsletter.
00:04:03.251 --> 00:04:06.701
and we obviously used AI to help write
some of that stuff, but the way we were
00:04:06.701 --> 00:04:10.571
doing it was based on conversations
that my co-founder and I were having,
00:04:11.571 --> 00:04:15.651
that we were taking directly from
and then building it out from there.
00:04:16.581 --> 00:04:21.381
as opposed to just telling Claude
or Chad, GPT make me a blog post
00:04:21.381 --> 00:04:26.331
about the five design, traps you
can fall into or whatever, right?
00:04:27.331 --> 00:04:29.971
yeah, ultimately at the end of the
day, like content is for people
00:04:30.061 --> 00:04:32.071
and still has to resonate there.
00:04:33.071 --> 00:04:34.451
Tom: Yeah, true.
00:04:34.631 --> 00:04:38.781
Were there any, this is not
really a podcast about building
00:04:38.811 --> 00:04:40.791
out detailed pictures of
00:04:40.845 --> 00:04:41.445
Patrick Lewis: Sure.
00:04:41.631 --> 00:04:44.271
Tom: but I'm curious about the limits
that you, came up against, especially
00:04:44.271 --> 00:04:48.211
in that, the blog post writing example.
00:04:49.021 --> 00:04:53.771
are there challenges that were,
are, you still running that today?
00:04:53.771 --> 00:04:56.501
Were there challenges that meant
that it was too difficult to fully
00:04:56.521 --> 00:04:56.881
Patrick Lewis: E.
00:04:57.101 --> 00:05:00.611
Tom: but, things that you
think could be resolved in the
00:05:00.713 --> 00:05:05.063
Patrick Lewis: Yeah, I think that, so
we've, paused, the newsletter for now.
00:05:05.963 --> 00:05:11.373
but I, I think that the, I suppose in
like delivery logistics, everyone talks
00:05:11.373 --> 00:05:16.173
about like the last mile, I think the last
mile in terms of content delivery still
00:05:16.173 --> 00:05:19.783
could use an awful lot of love, and work.
00:05:20.293 --> 00:05:23.653
we were using, we were
using Kit, I believe for our
00:05:23.653 --> 00:05:26.453
newsletter to, to distribute it.
00:05:26.633 --> 00:05:33.343
And, the platform was far more confusing
and traditional than I think, we can,
00:05:33.343 --> 00:05:36.013
do better in, in 20 25, 20 26, right?
00:05:37.013 --> 00:05:42.293
so I, do think like that was a part
of the workflow that I thought was
00:05:42.293 --> 00:05:44.573
like, could be vastly improved.
00:05:45.573 --> 00:05:48.843
of course, today maybe I just
go, all right, I'll try to build
00:05:48.843 --> 00:05:49.953
something like that myself.
00:05:50.433 --> 00:05:52.953
but, not that's advisable, but.
00:05:53.953 --> 00:05:55.033
Tom: yeah, totally makes sense.
00:05:55.963 --> 00:06:01.523
yeah, the, I, think, there was an example
from your work at, during Chattooga around
00:06:01.523 --> 00:06:07.173
video avatars as well, on on social media,
that, seemed like a really fascinating
00:06:07.173 --> 00:06:09.303
technical challenge to, do well.
00:06:10.303 --> 00:06:17.133
were there, I'm curious about the
editorial challenges of making so
00:06:17.193 --> 00:06:20.763
human-like and how you, are there
any design principles or design
00:06:21.513 --> 00:06:27.223
how to navigate, something that
feels human, but is AI or, vice
00:06:27.380 --> 00:06:30.840
Patrick Lewis: Yeah, I think,
probably the best, or like the most
00:06:30.840 --> 00:06:35.340
transferable design principle there is
just that, consistency builds trust.
00:06:36.340 --> 00:06:41.020
so I think with any, if you're designing
a checkout flow or financial product,
00:06:41.230 --> 00:06:45.880
like you're, the moment that there's
something that feels off to the user,
00:06:45.880 --> 00:06:50.350
inconsistent to the user, they begin to
ask questions and that takes them out
00:06:50.350 --> 00:06:54.490
of, buying the thing or transferring
the thing or whatever it might be.
00:06:55.490 --> 00:06:59.360
and when you take that and you apply
it to the, the tool that we built
00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:05.110
was called ov, and, I wish there
was a cooler reason behind the name.
00:07:05.110 --> 00:07:08.650
I just came up with the name
because the logo could be made
00:07:08.650 --> 00:07:11.600
out of, the icons for videos.
00:07:12.230 --> 00:07:17.280
so a stop button, a, a tilted play
button and then a pause button.
00:07:17.850 --> 00:07:22.000
but, but yeah, obviously when you're
creating those avatars and creating
00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:26.260
those videos, the character needs to
be consistent and so people begin to
00:07:26.260 --> 00:07:30.970
recognise, when that person pops up in
their feed that they're talking about
00:07:31.540 --> 00:07:33.820
whatever the product is or problem is.
00:07:33.820 --> 00:07:34.180
But yeah.
00:07:35.180 --> 00:07:36.320
Tom: Yeah, that makes sense.
00:07:36.650 --> 00:07:36.920
Yeah.
00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:41.190
I feel like there's, in this
era that we're in right now,
00:07:41.190 --> 00:07:44.370
it feels like trust is such an
00:07:44.576 --> 00:07:44.966
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:50.250
Tom: quality and I feel like a lot
of these design choices ladder up to
00:07:51.250 --> 00:07:55.210
a human being behind it or there's
consistency in how something is presented
00:07:55.210 --> 00:07:57.160
so that it feels more trustworthy.
00:07:57.730 --> 00:07:59.710
Did you, yeah.
00:07:59.770 --> 00:08:04.790
I'm curious if, that's still a theme
in your work now at Clay, how that
00:08:04.790 --> 00:08:07.250
sort of been a factor in your design
00:08:07.252 --> 00:08:11.342
Patrick Lewis: Yeah, I, think
with, with Clay it's probably less
00:08:11.342 --> 00:08:15.512
of an issue around like trust.
00:08:16.512 --> 00:08:19.902
ultimately, like on the business side of
things, like the artists are trusting us
00:08:19.902 --> 00:08:26.592
to, make sure that their like revenue,
split is, representative of their,
00:08:26.592 --> 00:08:28.452
listening time and things like that.
00:08:29.452 --> 00:08:33.952
but, but yeah, less of a
theme, at, Clay right now.
00:08:34.952 --> 00:08:35.642
Tom: that makes sense.
00:08:35.912 --> 00:08:40.532
So think we've rushed too quickly
into content because I really had a
00:08:40.532 --> 00:08:41.912
few more questions to ask you around,
00:08:42.912 --> 00:08:43.272
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:08:43.450 --> 00:08:44.500
Tom: at this moment in time.
00:08:44.800 --> 00:08:47.740
And before we started recording, you
were talking a bit about Figma and
00:08:47.740 --> 00:08:49.660
how Figma fits into your workflow or
00:08:50.016 --> 00:08:50.466
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:54.490
Tom: and I'm curious if you could
just give us a, of snapshot of
00:08:54.490 --> 00:08:58.540
what your daily design workflow
00:08:58.720 --> 00:08:59.110
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:08:59.830 --> 00:09:00.790
Tom: h how, is that right now?
00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:01.690
What, does it consist
00:09:01.792 --> 00:09:02.002
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:09:02.002 --> 00:09:06.082
So I think, I can tell you what
I'm up to today and, and what
00:09:06.082 --> 00:09:07.732
after this podcast I'll be doing.
00:09:08.732 --> 00:09:11.492
so I'm working on a feed.
00:09:12.392 --> 00:09:18.542
and so I think this is, the feed needs
to be dynamic and it needs to adjust
00:09:18.542 --> 00:09:20.792
to inputs that the user's giving it.
00:09:21.632 --> 00:09:24.662
and these are things that I just think
fundamentally, like Figma is not really in
00:09:24.662 --> 00:09:28.322
a position to, to do or to help me create.
00:09:29.322 --> 00:09:36.052
and with, code, I'm able to, very
quickly prototype something and then
00:09:36.052 --> 00:09:39.772
put it in the hands of the team and
understand how it, feels in the hand.
00:09:39.772 --> 00:09:43.142
And I'm always a big, advocate of that.
00:09:43.142 --> 00:09:47.222
I think, on the screen is one
thing, but feeling it swiping it,
00:09:47.222 --> 00:09:51.032
touching it, that sort of tangible
aspect, makes a big difference.
00:09:51.062 --> 00:10:00.412
And, and doing so, I could probably
like, finagle, Figma to allow me to do
00:10:00.412 --> 00:10:04.342
that and like the spaghetti string of
prototyping inside of Figma, or I could
00:10:04.342 --> 00:10:09.022
just, coat it up and make sure like all
the principles and things are still there.
00:10:09.022 --> 00:10:12.872
And, I think it's just a much faster way.
00:10:13.352 --> 00:10:16.082
yeah, I, rarely open, Figma these days.
00:10:16.653 --> 00:10:17.193
Jonny: Interesting.
00:10:17.853 --> 00:10:24.013
We're, basically doing a poll with
our guests of Figma, bulls and bears.
00:10:24.752 --> 00:10:25.562
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:10:25.873 --> 00:10:28.183
Jonny: it feels like a
sort of a rough even split.
00:10:28.303 --> 00:10:33.733
I'm a, I, personally have always found
Figma frustrating as a designer who likes
00:10:33.733 --> 00:10:35.773
to get into code and build something real.
00:10:35.920 --> 00:10:36.430
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:10:37.430 --> 00:10:39.740
Jonny: the beginning of this year,
I was like, Figma is gonna die.
00:10:39.980 --> 00:10:44.670
I was one of those guys probably, watching
the, stock price go down and be like, yes,
00:10:44.689 --> 00:10:45.259
Patrick Lewis: Sure.
00:10:45.510 --> 00:10:49.170
Jonny: And then, I suppose my
opinion right now is a little
00:10:49.170 --> 00:10:52.620
bit more measured in part because
I've been designing something.
00:10:53.040 --> 00:10:58.470
And I think my hope for everyone
can now design with AI was that it
00:10:58.470 --> 00:11:03.610
would feel like I felt when I was,
designing in code years ago where
00:11:03.610 --> 00:11:05.710
it would take as long, but it would
00:11:05.747 --> 00:11:05.957
Patrick Lewis: Yep.
00:11:06.070 --> 00:11:06.970
Jonny: better at the end.
00:11:06.970 --> 00:11:07.660
Like it would be higher
00:11:08.660 --> 00:11:08.870
that it
00:11:08.877 --> 00:11:09.327
Patrick Lewis: yes.
00:11:09.740 --> 00:11:12.830
Jonny: be slow enough that you
would get to try things and
00:11:12.860 --> 00:11:14.390
take your time over something.
00:11:15.170 --> 00:11:18.290
And I feel like what we're, what we
have now is everything's so fast.
00:11:18.290 --> 00:11:21.560
Like you just ask for it and then it
spits out a load of stuff and you're
00:11:21.560 --> 00:11:26.670
like, I'm, it's not how I would've
done it, but I don't really feel
00:11:26.700 --> 00:11:28.620
like I can be bothered to change it.
00:11:28.620 --> 00:11:31.300
I'd rather just build
the next thing or, and,
00:11:31.300 --> 00:11:36.050
so I found myself going back to Figma
in the last week or two, just so that
00:11:36.050 --> 00:11:37.760
I can sit with a button for a bit
00:11:38.760 --> 00:11:39.240
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:11:39.673 --> 00:11:42.523
Jonny: different inner shadows
look like just for a hot
00:11:42.728 --> 00:11:43.088
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:11:43.153 --> 00:11:45.103
Jonny: which I could
actually do in code as well.
00:11:45.253 --> 00:11:45.703
And that's what I
00:11:45.800 --> 00:11:46.100
Patrick Lewis: For sure.
00:11:46.543 --> 00:11:49.723
Jonny: all of this happened, but I
just found it really fascinating.
00:11:50.723 --> 00:11:50.783
I,
00:11:50.952 --> 00:11:55.032
Patrick Lewis: I do think that, I
think that Figma still has its place.
00:11:55.752 --> 00:11:59.532
Like I, I, was probably with you and
then like Figma was gonna die and
00:11:59.532 --> 00:12:02.232
then saw the stock price as well,
and was just like, yeah, I was right.
00:12:02.802 --> 00:12:05.172
but, not that, makes me happy.
00:12:05.262 --> 00:12:09.162
I've our friends that work there and,
want the, best outcomes for them.
00:12:10.062 --> 00:12:16.432
but, I think where I use Figma
mostly today is, around visual,
00:12:16.822 --> 00:12:18.682
and like brand and identity design.
00:12:19.432 --> 00:12:24.392
that's still something where I
have yet to, develop a workflow or
00:12:24.392 --> 00:12:29.037
even see a workflow that I am, that
can match, what I'm able to do and
00:12:29.087 --> 00:12:30.517
Figma when it comes to those things.
00:12:31.517 --> 00:12:35.087
as a, source of truth for product
design, I don't think, I don't
00:12:35.087 --> 00:12:37.097
think Figma is that anymore?
00:12:37.757 --> 00:12:45.117
but I do think that, it allows, certainly
level of granularity and, finesse that
00:12:45.177 --> 00:12:50.757
maybe, when you're looking at a whole
thing, that you've coded up it, it's hard
00:12:50.757 --> 00:12:53.727
to focus in on one element, sometimes.
00:12:53.740 --> 00:12:56.380
Jonny: suppose it's that like moving
it away from source of truth to a
00:12:56.380 --> 00:13:01.180
more ancillary tool where you are like
sketching in it and exploring visually.
00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:05.470
And then actually you take that into the
tool where actually you do, where the,
00:13:05.503 --> 00:13:05.923
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:13:06.923 --> 00:13:11.758
And, I'll occasionally do that, like I'll
block out sort of layouts and different
00:13:11.758 --> 00:13:15.838
things and stuff inside of Figma and
then bring that over, into code and
00:13:15.838 --> 00:13:18.148
say Hey, use this as the foundation.
00:13:18.148 --> 00:13:19.588
Here's how I'm thinking about it.
00:13:20.008 --> 00:13:21.778
let's work from there.
00:13:22.648 --> 00:13:27.268
so yeah, it's, I think it's good
at the very beginning, potentially.
00:13:27.268 --> 00:13:31.348
And then I think Figma earns its place
potentially at the very end as well.
00:13:32.218 --> 00:13:37.588
but I, do think that for a large part
of the flow, you can reach higher
00:13:37.588 --> 00:13:42.088
fidelity and more accurately represent
what you're trying to build, using code.
00:13:42.623 --> 00:13:42.923
Jonny: Yeah.
00:13:43.923 --> 00:13:47.763
Patrick, I, I'd love to slow, I think
this is a continuation of the existing
00:13:47.763 --> 00:13:51.523
conversation, but you mentioned, clay
and the fact that you're a founding
00:13:51.523 --> 00:13:55.753
designer and you just joined, and
I've been a founding designer before
00:13:56.743 --> 00:13:59.443
being a founding designer in 2026.
00:13:59.443 --> 00:14:03.523
Probably as might be in some part a
little bit different to previously,
00:14:03.793 --> 00:14:06.043
you can be so much more empowered
and you can just attack stuff.
00:14:06.043 --> 00:14:11.963
So I'm just interested in first 90 days
or whatever the cliche is, like what,
00:14:11.963 --> 00:14:15.203
like what have you been able to do that I
think that you couldn't have done before?
00:14:15.203 --> 00:14:18.083
And is there anything that
people can think about if they're
00:14:18.653 --> 00:14:20.093
gonna be a design team of one,
00:14:20.826 --> 00:14:21.606
Patrick Lewis: A hundred percent.
00:14:22.176 --> 00:14:26.256
So I've been, very fortunate
to be a founding designer,
00:14:26.946 --> 00:14:28.626
now four times in my career.
00:14:29.466 --> 00:14:35.256
so last year, two of the companies that I
helped start, exited and that was, great.
00:14:36.216 --> 00:14:42.116
and, I think that, I think the founding
designers require like an awful lot of
00:14:42.116 --> 00:14:46.346
trust and it's a, it's like a with great
power comes great responsibility, right?
00:14:46.346 --> 00:14:50.306
Like you get to shape the thing, but
you also have a responsibility and,
00:14:50.786 --> 00:14:54.456
to, set everyone else up for success.
00:14:55.416 --> 00:14:59.986
it's, there's, a lot of design, in
that position, but there's an awful lot
00:14:59.986 --> 00:15:01.756
of everything else in, in there too.
00:15:02.536 --> 00:15:06.656
I think the way that being a
founding designer is different this
00:15:06.656 --> 00:15:12.876
time around, is really, it's how
quickly can you get the context of
00:15:13.876 --> 00:15:15.451
what's happened before you got here.
00:15:16.451 --> 00:15:22.761
and so I've seen, I had a client
recently, that, their team was probably
00:15:22.761 --> 00:15:28.651
the most efficient, and like AI forward,
like operationally that I'd ever seen,
00:15:29.041 --> 00:15:31.861
where every, every meeting is recorded.
00:15:31.921 --> 00:15:36.791
They have skills that then turn those
into, here are the decisions, here's
00:15:37.151 --> 00:15:38.891
what, who made those decisions?
00:15:39.191 --> 00:15:41.681
Like everything is tracked and
they're able to then assign
00:15:41.681 --> 00:15:43.181
those to-dos to an agent.
00:15:43.181 --> 00:15:49.921
Takes it, does it, and that's not quite,
we're not quite set up like that at play.
00:15:50.921 --> 00:15:55.001
Amanda, does that make it an awful
lot easier to be effective earlier?
00:15:56.001 --> 00:16:01.231
and what I've done this time around
is really just try to build my
00:16:01.231 --> 00:16:04.261
own, it's kinda be the change you
wanna see in the world, right?
00:16:05.251 --> 00:16:10.741
so any meetings I have get recorded,
get fed into a common system, are able
00:16:10.741 --> 00:16:14.051
to be queryable, these sorts of things.
00:16:14.051 --> 00:16:18.081
And then, that's allowed
me to be more effective.
00:16:18.111 --> 00:16:22.251
I think the other thing that I, did
this time around that, I felt has
00:16:22.251 --> 00:16:32.506
been really successful early on was, I
made a, a, a pun playground where, I'm
00:16:32.506 --> 00:16:39.776
able to just explore, using code, and,
prototyping a pretty high fidelity,
00:16:40.776 --> 00:16:49.386
but gives me a space to just go to town
and, and be free of, any of the design
00:16:49.386 --> 00:16:51.006
work that may have happened before.
00:16:51.906 --> 00:16:55.266
and I think that's actually
been, really helpful as well.
00:16:55.913 --> 00:16:56.633
Jonny: Playground.
00:16:56.723 --> 00:16:57.923
Oh, not every
00:16:58.094 --> 00:16:58.664
Patrick Lewis: Playground.
00:16:58.673 --> 00:16:59.333
Jonny: able to have that
00:16:59.529 --> 00:17:00.199
Patrick Lewis: Playground?
00:17:00.204 --> 00:17:00.494
No.
00:17:00.494 --> 00:17:01.094
Yeah, it's a good,
00:17:01.333 --> 00:17:02.963
Jonny: is a unique, uniquely
00:17:02.979 --> 00:17:03.269
Patrick Lewis: yeah.
00:17:03.413 --> 00:17:04.433
Jonny: opportunity for you.
00:17:04.433 --> 00:17:07.193
You had to, as soon as you thought of
the pun, you must have had to create it.
00:17:07.193 --> 00:17:10.043
Just, been a crime to have not, yeah.
00:17:10.523 --> 00:17:14.393
And is that, using your, like
production components or is, have
00:17:14.393 --> 00:17:15.893
you, are you built, is this like
00:17:16.174 --> 00:17:16.594
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:17:16.613 --> 00:17:18.743
Jonny: or are you pulling
in production code?
00:17:18.862 --> 00:17:19.102
Patrick Lewis: Great.
00:17:19.582 --> 00:17:24.472
So my, the first week I was there,
I created a design system, and so
00:17:24.472 --> 00:17:30.512
playground uses those components,
but they're very, just like primitive
00:17:30.512 --> 00:17:35.282
basic components that we can later,
customise and do whatever we want with.
00:17:35.912 --> 00:17:40.112
but I just needed like a sort of the,
the, building blocks the Legos and
00:17:40.112 --> 00:17:45.212
are able to create something that
looks and feels like clay, even though
00:17:45.242 --> 00:17:47.192
that is subject to change as well.
00:17:47.845 --> 00:17:48.145
Jonny: Yeah.
00:17:48.385 --> 00:17:48.655
Yeah.
00:17:49.655 --> 00:17:53.640
For, for context, there's a few
engineers or some, some engineering
00:17:53.945 --> 00:17:54.275
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:17:54.780 --> 00:17:55.410
Jonny: that exists.
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.600
they welcome you with open arms
into the code base and all of that?
00:18:00.600 --> 00:18:01.110
Patrick Lewis: yeah, for sure.
00:18:01.290 --> 00:18:06.280
I, think that, what's been interesting
is just to see, depending on where the
00:18:06.280 --> 00:18:12.590
engineer has been, and what level of
exposure they've had to like AI in design.
00:18:13.430 --> 00:18:16.850
and I've had conversations
where it's yeah, like design's
00:18:16.850 --> 00:18:18.830
more than just ui, right?
00:18:19.370 --> 00:18:22.400
but I've also had conversations
where it's yeah, like here's
00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:23.780
this full blown animation.
00:18:23.780 --> 00:18:24.770
It's documented here.
00:18:24.770 --> 00:18:27.260
You can just take this, bring it
into your code and like you're good
00:18:27.260 --> 00:18:29.900
to go and blow their minds, right?
00:18:29.930 --> 00:18:35.240
And, and at that point you earned
your, earned your cred, if you will.
00:18:35.510 --> 00:18:41.885
And now I have edit access in the
repo, but, but yeah, so no, I think
00:18:41.885 --> 00:18:47.555
it's been mostly, mostly a welcome,
thing because I, you know, truthfully,
00:18:47.555 --> 00:18:50.075
at least most of the engineers I've
worked with, that's not why they got
00:18:50.075 --> 00:18:52.385
into engineering to begin with, right?
00:18:52.535 --> 00:18:56.135
if they wanted to be a designer,
they would be a designer, right?
00:18:57.135 --> 00:18:57.555
yeah.
00:18:57.555 --> 00:19:00.255
So I, think it's been a, a
welcome, a welcome thing.
00:19:00.934 --> 00:19:01.264
Jonny: Yeah.
00:19:02.014 --> 00:19:04.864
And I'm sure if, you are the first
designer, they will have been excited
00:19:04.864 --> 00:19:07.624
about having some design resource to make
00:19:07.739 --> 00:19:08.369
Patrick Lewis: Oh yeah.
00:19:08.369 --> 00:19:11.219
I mean I was, yeah, I was
like water in the desert.
00:19:12.034 --> 00:19:12.214
Jonny: Yeah,
00:19:12.389 --> 00:19:12.539
Patrick Lewis: Yeah,
00:19:12.784 --> 00:19:13.024
Jonny: Yeah.
00:19:13.439 --> 00:19:14.129
Patrick Lewis: they were very excited.
00:19:14.849 --> 00:19:15.944
Have me on board for sure.
00:19:16.742 --> 00:19:17.012
Jonny: Yeah.
00:19:18.012 --> 00:19:23.302
Tom: I have a question related to
this theme, but relates more to
00:19:23.302 --> 00:19:26.902
hiring and positioning, and I feel
like there's a lot of designers
00:19:26.902 --> 00:19:30.002
out there who are, being laid off
00:19:30.191 --> 00:19:30.611
Patrick Lewis: Yes.
00:19:30.962 --> 00:19:33.032
Tom: to find the right role.
00:19:33.272 --> 00:19:36.452
And then there's a, a small select
group of people who are very in
00:19:36.751 --> 00:19:37.261
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:19:37.322 --> 00:19:38.612
Tom: are batting away people away.
00:19:39.332 --> 00:19:42.332
I'm curious if you have any thoughts
or comments on what that experience has
00:19:42.332 --> 00:19:45.842
been like for you over the last year
since you've, sounds like you've changed
00:19:46.127 --> 00:19:46.727
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:19:47.492 --> 00:19:51.332
Tom: and specifically with this skillset
00:19:51.407 --> 00:19:51.917
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:19:51.992 --> 00:19:57.432
Tom: because I could imagine
this is very, seen as very
00:19:57.432 --> 00:19:58.692
valuable, especially for an early
00:19:58.747 --> 00:19:59.197
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:19:59.262 --> 00:20:01.272
Tom: to bring someone
in who has that skill.
00:20:02.272 --> 00:20:06.082
and I'm curious, how much do you think
that is, how much of a significance that
00:20:06.082 --> 00:20:09.682
plays in why Clay wanted to bring you
00:20:09.777 --> 00:20:10.137
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:20:10.552 --> 00:20:12.952
Tom: versus just because
of your sort of traditional
00:20:13.952 --> 00:20:14.492
or strong UI
00:20:14.675 --> 00:20:15.185
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:20:16.185 --> 00:20:19.395
along with being a founding designer,
one of the really cool things you
00:20:19.395 --> 00:20:22.095
get to do is hire a design team.
00:20:22.575 --> 00:20:28.395
And, and I, really enjoy hiring folks
who have never been designers before
00:20:28.725 --> 00:20:30.525
and giving them their first shot.
00:20:30.675 --> 00:20:33.405
It's by far, been the most
rewarding thing in my career.
00:20:34.305 --> 00:20:37.545
and I've kept in touch with each of
those designers, and at this point,
00:20:37.545 --> 00:20:38.745
most of them are better than me.
00:20:39.745 --> 00:20:46.615
but, I have a, a good friend, named
Jay who last year, she, really
00:20:46.615 --> 00:20:48.535
struggled, to find a design job.
00:20:48.625 --> 00:20:53.815
And she came to me in December and
shared very open, vulnerably with me
00:20:53.815 --> 00:20:58.885
that Hey, I'm really struggling and
I'm, not sure design is for me anymore.
00:20:59.485 --> 00:21:04.675
it seems like design has passed
me by and, obviously that made
00:21:04.675 --> 00:21:07.915
me sad, but also want to help.
00:21:07.975 --> 00:21:14.525
And we began working together,
a couple times a week, to build
00:21:14.525 --> 00:21:19.655
up and they just get her exposed
to some of these new skills.
00:21:20.375 --> 00:21:25.775
and, unfortunately, like she was able to,
land a job, pretty quickly after that.
00:21:26.775 --> 00:21:32.485
I think that, I've seen even like
really, senior designers, like 15 plus
00:21:32.485 --> 00:21:34.735
years experience, struggle to get jobs.
00:21:34.735 --> 00:21:39.845
And so I'm always, cautious to
say this is easy 'cause it's not.
00:21:40.845 --> 00:21:46.245
but I do think that now more than
ever what AI has done is flattened
00:21:46.245 --> 00:21:47.925
the, like, experience curve.
00:21:48.925 --> 00:21:52.975
previously you would look for
a designer with 10 plus years
00:21:52.975 --> 00:21:55.375
experience to do whatever, right?
00:21:56.375 --> 00:22:00.545
there's an argument to be made that
while yes, that person is probably
00:22:00.545 --> 00:22:05.145
still the better designer, who's
the most effective candidate.
00:22:06.145 --> 00:22:09.625
and it might be a designer who has
less experience, but who has more
00:22:09.625 --> 00:22:16.115
exposure, and, has used sort of these
more modern tools and processes.
00:22:17.115 --> 00:22:19.795
so I, I'm a firm believer.
00:22:20.365 --> 00:22:26.755
I do believe that regardless of how we
feel about AI and AI's role in craft
00:22:26.755 --> 00:22:33.265
and creativity, I, do think that it is
a little bit of a doc, a adopt or die,
00:22:34.265 --> 00:22:39.340
and the thing that I've, enjoyed most
and like I probably have had, this has
00:22:39.345 --> 00:22:44.055
probably been the most fun year and a
half or so of my career, is really that,
00:22:44.205 --> 00:22:50.055
as designers, the things that used to
always bother us, we can own, and like
00:22:50.115 --> 00:22:55.785
now we get to, kinda see that as an
opportunity to, make that change, right?
00:22:55.785 --> 00:23:01.755
So there's no, oh, like engineering's
overwhelmed and that button is off
00:23:01.755 --> 00:23:03.195
centre, but it's gonna remain off.
00:23:03.313 --> 00:23:03.673
Centre.
00:23:03.673 --> 00:23:07.453
'cause it's not a priority and no, you
can just hop in and make the change
00:23:07.453 --> 00:23:09.703
and submit the PR and there you go.
00:23:10.703 --> 00:23:15.263
so I think that if we, tweak the
mindset as designers that like,
00:23:15.533 --> 00:23:18.983
this is not gonna replace us, this
is going to make us more effective.
00:23:19.983 --> 00:23:22.473
I, I do think that, that can help.
00:23:23.473 --> 00:23:26.498
but, yeah, hopefully that
answered the question.
00:23:27.123 --> 00:23:28.028
I don't actually now
00:23:28.537 --> 00:23:29.077
Tom: yeah.
00:23:29.077 --> 00:23:29.347
Yeah.
00:23:30.347 --> 00:23:31.037
Patrick Lewis: but yeah, I,
00:23:32.037 --> 00:23:32.457
Tom: Yeah.
00:23:33.177 --> 00:23:37.647
it a different question, that
was very, closely connected.
00:23:38.517 --> 00:23:42.177
the, yeah, I, and maybe you weren't
comfortable answering the question of
00:23:42.627 --> 00:23:45.417
you specifically, and maybe you can't
even answer it because it was really the,
00:23:45.537 --> 00:23:49.917
the, the founder founders at Clay who
would've answered like, how important was
00:23:49.984 --> 00:23:50.584
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:23:50.817 --> 00:23:51.657
Tom: they were looking for you?
00:23:52.377 --> 00:23:55.737
think there's this interesting dynamic
in various companies and people that
00:23:55.737 --> 00:24:00.447
Johnny and I speak with, where there
are companies that are extremely AI
00:24:00.447 --> 00:24:08.577
native, who want to hire designers
and really value deep engineering
00:24:08.704 --> 00:24:09.064
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:24:09.417 --> 00:24:10.347
Tom: and AI expertise.
00:24:10.347 --> 00:24:12.897
And then there are some companies at
the other end, generally larger, more
00:24:12.897 --> 00:24:15.357
traditional companies they have huge
00:24:15.392 --> 00:24:15.722
Patrick Lewis: Yep.
00:24:16.107 --> 00:24:19.917
Tom: and they are insecure
industries where they can't
00:24:19.917 --> 00:24:21.267
actually have any designers using
00:24:21.717 --> 00:24:22.047
yet.
00:24:22.377 --> 00:24:25.107
And I think there's a sort of very
wide spectrum where companies are
00:24:25.137 --> 00:24:28.867
struggling to find the right talent,
but also the right who want to work in
00:24:28.882 --> 00:24:29.482
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:24:29.677 --> 00:24:33.007
Tom: have more choice, or they're
more maybe restricted about what the
00:24:33.007 --> 00:24:36.517
options are, but there's more of an
intentional choice around, do I go
00:24:36.517 --> 00:24:40.327
to the company where, maybe more of
a traditional setup, but I won't get
00:24:40.327 --> 00:24:46.327
exposed to AI tooling versus, choice
where you have to go deep into AI to
00:24:46.327 --> 00:24:48.217
be useful to how that company operates.
00:24:48.217 --> 00:24:50.857
And that, that feels like
a very wide difference.
00:24:50.917 --> 00:24:52.207
I think there's a huge difference in those
00:24:52.434 --> 00:24:52.974
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:24:53.557 --> 00:24:58.997
Tom: I was interested in how that's
played out for you in, this, in, in Clay's
00:24:59.242 --> 00:24:59.632
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:24:59.867 --> 00:25:00.347
Tom: hire you.
00:25:01.007 --> 00:25:03.707
also, so it sounds like from our
conversation so far, you've been
00:25:03.707 --> 00:25:08.057
following this thread of really
having fun or enjoying working with
00:25:08.057 --> 00:25:10.577
AI as a, an assistant for coding.
00:25:11.577 --> 00:25:14.997
yeah, I'm curious how much
of that's influenced by the
00:25:14.997 --> 00:25:15.957
shape of teams that you've
00:25:15.990 --> 00:25:16.680
Patrick Lewis: Yeah, I
00:25:16.977 --> 00:25:18.357
Tom: versus just, So,
00:25:19.050 --> 00:25:22.440
Patrick Lewis: yeah, I think it, maybe an
important thing, like I, I don't think I
00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:27.180
would be a very good fit at like really
large companies for, a variety of reasons.
00:25:28.020 --> 00:25:33.880
but, I, enjoy doing more,
wearing multiple hats.
00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:39.040
And so like I've always erred on the
side of, super early stage stuff.
00:25:40.040 --> 00:25:45.140
I've taken a few departures, Buzzfeed
included, because, there was a, at the
00:25:45.140 --> 00:25:49.520
time, a, a head of design there who I,
really, respected and wanted to be a
00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:53.210
part of, his team, cap, cap Watkins.
00:25:53.270 --> 00:25:58.050
And, but for the most part, my career
has been super early stage stuff.
00:25:58.110 --> 00:26:03.250
And so I think that it makes sense
because that's the, that's sort of
00:26:03.250 --> 00:26:07.030
the type of team and size of the team
and stage of company that I enjoy.
00:26:07.390 --> 00:26:13.240
That's the skillset that I've focused
on is like, how do I outproduce what
00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:15.190
you get when you hire one designer?
00:26:16.060 --> 00:26:20.200
to me, like if you hire me, you get
someone who has been a founder and
00:26:20.590 --> 00:26:25.990
has a business degree and, has some
technical chops and, also is a designer.
00:26:26.990 --> 00:26:27.290
yeah.
00:26:27.290 --> 00:26:31.640
I think there's a completely
different shape skillset that,
00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:37.220
you know, I, probably don't have,
to, join a really large company.
00:26:38.220 --> 00:26:42.360
and so yeah, I do think there's this,
there's kind of a, a chasm that's formed.
00:26:42.420 --> 00:26:47.160
Like I think you, fit the nail on the
head where like you have small teams
00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:50.430
who need the most out of the small
number of people they're able to hire.
00:26:50.430 --> 00:26:53.040
And so they're looking for
really broad skill sets.
00:26:53.040 --> 00:26:56.220
And then I think you've got some
industries and some larger companies
00:26:56.220 --> 00:27:00.570
who are hiring designers who can
go really deep because they have a
00:27:00.570 --> 00:27:04.290
team of design engineers and front
end engineers and all these sorts of
00:27:04.290 --> 00:27:09.300
things that like, the, the early stage
company just really, can't afford.
00:27:10.300 --> 00:27:15.950
Jonny: I think it demonstrates, maybe
your tenure as a designer that you can
00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:19.220
confidently know thyself or whatever and,
00:27:19.395 --> 00:27:19.935
Patrick Lewis: Yes.
00:27:20.055 --> 00:27:20.445
Yeah.
00:27:20.450 --> 00:27:24.080
Jonny: what you are into
you are less suited for.
00:27:24.890 --> 00:27:27.830
I, hope I know that in myself as well.
00:27:27.830 --> 00:27:30.680
And I think it's something that
everyone should strive towards to feel
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:35.480
comfortable in your own skin or to not
look over the wall and always think, oh,
00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:36.800
maybe I should be doing that as well.
00:27:36.950 --> 00:27:39.770
Actually saying, yeah, that's
cool that they can do that.
00:27:39.770 --> 00:27:40.520
And it's cool that,
00:27:41.475 --> 00:27:41.895
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:27:42.125 --> 00:27:45.980
Jonny: that company hides for and it's
not for me and to be at peace with that.
00:27:46.340 --> 00:27:46.610
I do
00:27:46.691 --> 00:27:47.111
Patrick Lewis: My,
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:53.070
Jonny: hard in this,
Twitter x driven design,
00:27:53.873 --> 00:27:54.203
Patrick Lewis: Yep.
00:27:54.660 --> 00:27:59.070
Jonny: ecosystem to, not feel
like you are always behind you.
00:27:59.070 --> 00:28:01.770
You should always be doing more of
the thing you're not doing constantly.
00:28:01.890 --> 00:28:05.910
I'm just interested in you always, did
you always understand this or was it
00:28:05.910 --> 00:28:09.730
just a process of, it's like mistakes.
00:28:10.730 --> 00:28:14.720
Patrick Lewis: Yeah, no, this, it gives
me a good chance to tell a, good story.
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:20.190
my, my best friend is a, like a
CPO at a bunch of companies that
00:28:20.190 --> 00:28:22.500
everyone and their mom has heard of.
00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:27.180
And, we met really early in
our careers, and they took
00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:29.835
wildly different paths, right?
00:28:29.835 --> 00:28:32.250
I went super small and he went very large.
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:38.340
and, and it's always interesting
to me because we share a lot of the
00:28:38.340 --> 00:28:41.850
same characteristics and we enjoy
a lot of the same things, but we've
00:28:41.850 --> 00:28:43.530
just applied them very differently.
00:28:44.530 --> 00:28:51.260
and I think that the, takeaway, the, the,
advice that he gave me a very long time
00:28:51.260 --> 00:28:55.500
ago was just like, to tell a good story.
00:28:55.710 --> 00:29:01.890
And, a good story allows people to,
root for the main character, right?
00:29:02.070 --> 00:29:03.210
wanting you to succeed.
00:29:04.210 --> 00:29:11.250
it allows them to want to be a part
of it, and, and you can follow it.
00:29:11.940 --> 00:29:18.810
and so anytime I make a career decision,
I think about the story that it tells.
00:29:18.870 --> 00:29:24.470
And, obviously I, I've, there's a
certain, there's, a drawback to that
00:29:24.470 --> 00:29:28.710
too, which is like, when you realise
a company is not for you, it does
00:29:28.710 --> 00:29:33.870
require you to then leave and, go
find something that is true to you.
00:29:33.870 --> 00:29:40.110
And, but I'm just always I'm a person who,
if I love something, I, will work harder
00:29:40.110 --> 00:29:45.330
than anyone else to, be good at that
thing, even if I'm not good at it yet.
00:29:46.330 --> 00:29:51.920
and, funnily enough, like I earned
a, track and field scholarship for
00:29:51.950 --> 00:29:54.920
discus and hammer throwing, to college.
00:29:54.980 --> 00:30:00.860
And most discus and hammer throwers are
very tall and, have super long arms.
00:30:01.860 --> 00:30:07.000
I am neither of those things, and
definitely I have T-Rex arms and, but
00:30:07.660 --> 00:30:12.070
I, practised on Christmas, my birthday,
I practised on the day of the prom.
00:30:12.070 --> 00:30:15.880
I practised when it was cold,
when it was hot, and, I just,
00:30:16.030 --> 00:30:17.830
without work the other people.
00:30:18.100 --> 00:30:23.780
And so, I think it requires you to
identify yourself, what you enjoy doing,
00:30:24.290 --> 00:30:28.880
and then that ideally makes the work a
little bit easier, or at least, in the
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:34.400
kind of dog days, in the, when churn's at
an all time high, when CAC is too high,
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:37.970
like all this sort of stuff, it allows
you to keep showing up and be excited
00:30:37.970 --> 00:30:39.680
about the, the thing that you're doing.
00:30:40.370 --> 00:30:44.660
but it definitely took me a
little bit to, to identify that.
00:30:45.660 --> 00:30:45.960
but
00:30:46.935 --> 00:30:50.505
Jonny: And as a founder, those
highs and lows are, significant.
00:30:51.438 --> 00:30:52.098
Patrick Lewis: Oh yeah.
00:30:52.335 --> 00:30:56.425
Jonny: to have a practise that you
can lean on and like to know where
00:30:56.425 --> 00:30:59.485
your energy comes from and, why
you are doing what you're doing and
00:30:59.485 --> 00:31:01.075
all of that stuff is so important.
00:31:02.005 --> 00:31:05.455
you can get lost in what's
happened today or what the
00:31:05.592 --> 00:31:06.162
Patrick Lewis: And I think,
00:31:06.205 --> 00:31:07.285
Jonny: to you, or how
00:31:07.302 --> 00:31:08.137
Patrick Lewis: yeah, and I,
00:31:08.275 --> 00:31:08.695
Jonny: et cetera.
00:31:09.012 --> 00:31:11.982
Patrick Lewis: yeah, I think the other
thing that you brought up was like, around
00:31:11.982 --> 00:31:15.852
X and sort of the design narrative and
conversations that are happening and it
00:31:15.852 --> 00:31:20.052
is really easy to feel like you're falling
behind or you're missing out or you're not
00:31:20.052 --> 00:31:21.972
gonna make it, or whatever it might be.
00:31:22.212 --> 00:31:26.712
I do think that trying to, maybe as
cheesy as it sounds or whatever, but
00:31:26.712 --> 00:31:32.112
trying to look inward and understand what
are you about, what do you find joy in?
00:31:32.592 --> 00:31:34.212
How can you do more of that?
00:31:35.212 --> 00:31:40.712
what you're good at, like I'm not good
at, if you ask me to fine tune the
00:31:40.712 --> 00:31:44.342
inner shadows of a button more than
twice, I'm probably gonna go crazy.
00:31:45.272 --> 00:31:47.102
I'm just gonna be like,
ship, shift the button.
00:31:47.102 --> 00:31:50.712
Let's see if anyone clicks on it,
then we can make it real good.
00:31:51.457 --> 00:31:58.827
but, but yeah, but I do think that, just
knowing that, is, a, really big skill
00:31:59.127 --> 00:32:04.297
and, something that, I don't know, it's
a gift, like clarity is a gift, yeah.
00:32:05.297 --> 00:32:08.027
Tom: Think before we started
recording, you said, and I broke
00:32:08.027 --> 00:32:09.107
this down, saying no is more
00:32:09.453 --> 00:32:09.933
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:32:10.933 --> 00:32:14.383
Tom: and I feel like that, I feel like
that's a nice sort of theme that you've
00:32:14.383 --> 00:32:18.373
been covering as well with the, the
idea of knowing yourself, of getting
00:32:18.373 --> 00:32:23.683
a certain expertise or a depth of
expertise to be able to draw from that.
00:32:24.683 --> 00:32:26.183
I'm curious if you could
expand on that a little bit.
00:32:26.183 --> 00:32:28.433
Is there anything else that, that
makes you think of saying no is
00:32:28.433 --> 00:32:29.393
more important than ever now.
00:32:30.393 --> 00:32:37.263
Patrick Lewis: I think that, in, in
that context, like fortunately, the
00:32:37.263 --> 00:32:39.393
skillset that I have has been in demand.
00:32:39.483 --> 00:32:43.543
And whenever opportunities
are presented to me, they go
00:32:43.543 --> 00:32:45.463
through that same sort of filter.
00:32:45.463 --> 00:32:48.493
And, is this gonna be
something I enjoy doing?
00:32:48.493 --> 00:32:52.393
Is this going to help me grow or
develop more skills or present new
00:32:52.393 --> 00:32:54.073
opportunities in the future and stuff?
00:32:55.073 --> 00:32:58.853
so I, I think like learning to say
no to opportunities, and I realise
00:32:58.853 --> 00:33:02.573
that's a place of privilege that
like, Hey, listen, like you got
00:33:02.573 --> 00:33:04.643
bills to pay, you are gonna say yes.
00:33:05.643 --> 00:33:09.003
I've had lots of jobs and being a
designer is by far the best one.
00:33:10.003 --> 00:33:13.903
but at the same time, if you are in
a position where hey, you're being
00:33:13.903 --> 00:33:17.443
recruited by a couple different
companies, like knowing, yourself,
00:33:17.443 --> 00:33:20.353
knowing your skillset and what you want
to get out of it is going to help you
00:33:20.803 --> 00:33:23.023
make, make the most informed decision.
00:33:23.863 --> 00:33:29.113
and then obviously like in practise,
like in design, with ai it almost
00:33:29.113 --> 00:33:31.243
feels like, anything is possible.
00:33:32.083 --> 00:33:36.773
but that, that can also be, that can
also have, its, downsides too, right?
00:33:36.983 --> 00:33:40.838
I think you could just find yourself
endlessly tweaking and playing
00:33:40.943 --> 00:33:43.013
with things and adding things.
00:33:43.043 --> 00:33:47.883
And, yeah, at some point you've
gotta, you gotta know when to, stop.
00:33:48.883 --> 00:33:54.443
and, I wish I had a great framework
or something to, work off of, but a
00:33:54.443 --> 00:33:56.603
lot of times it's just, you feel it.
00:33:56.693 --> 00:34:01.103
And I, try to keep in mind that everything
has to earn, its, earn its lease.
00:34:02.103 --> 00:34:03.063
but yeah.
00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:04.010
Jonny: Yeah.
00:34:05.010 --> 00:34:07.680
Tom: Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna ask
you about that actually in relation to
00:34:08.060 --> 00:34:12.420
a, comment you had earlier about working,
like with a small team and engineers trust
00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:19.570
you enough to give you, edit access and
GitHub and all these like, clearly shows
00:34:19.570 --> 00:34:22.720
you built a strong, trusted relationship
with engineering, which is really good.
00:34:23.140 --> 00:34:30.070
But there a downside to that, that
your day-to-day work is pulled so much
00:34:30.070 --> 00:34:34.600
into the engineering space that it is
harder to do the pure design tasks?
00:34:34.600 --> 00:34:38.200
I'm curious where saying no
and pushing back fits into that
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:41.030
overall picture of you, like to
00:34:41.095 --> 00:34:45.545
Patrick Lewis: I think, yeah, I
think that at least at Clay, the,
00:34:45.545 --> 00:34:48.965
thing I've been focused on is really
saying no to additional features.
00:34:49.505 --> 00:34:54.225
I think that, it just because things
are easier doesn't necessarily
00:34:54.225 --> 00:34:55.545
mean they take less time.
00:34:56.415 --> 00:34:59.355
We, I think we talked before we
hopped on here, the difference
00:34:59.355 --> 00:35:00.435
between good and right.
00:35:01.155 --> 00:35:03.165
And it's never been easier
to make something good.
00:35:03.405 --> 00:35:06.075
Like that's, you can make something
good if you know what you're doing.
00:35:07.075 --> 00:35:12.085
but making it right, knowing
what's right is still very hard.
00:35:13.085 --> 00:35:15.015
and yeah, I don't know.
00:35:15.195 --> 00:35:19.845
I think that by saying no to, to two
additional features to scope creep, this,
00:35:19.875 --> 00:35:26.875
this type of stuff, I'm able to reserve a
bit more time to focus on, the design of,
00:35:26.875 --> 00:35:29.125
the, the feature set that we have today.
00:35:30.125 --> 00:35:33.995
because, if we're, if you just
try to spread yourself too thin,
00:35:33.995 --> 00:35:37.115
I don't think it's possible to
do like really high quality work.
00:35:38.115 --> 00:35:40.155
that stuff still takes time.
00:35:41.118 --> 00:35:45.388
Jonny: Feels like the perpetual
of a founding designer ship,
00:35:45.418 --> 00:35:46.678
to be honest, is like you
00:35:46.689 --> 00:35:47.019
Patrick Lewis: Yep.
00:35:47.128 --> 00:35:51.688
Jonny: constantly advocating for more
time and less time at the same time.
00:35:51.688 --> 00:35:54.718
Like to yourself, you're saying
maybe I should go faster and to
00:35:54.718 --> 00:35:56.038
the rest of the organisation.
00:35:56.038 --> 00:35:56.398
You are,
00:35:56.865 --> 00:35:57.375
Patrick Lewis: Yes.
00:35:58.048 --> 00:36:01.288
Jonny: I actually this, we should do
this better than this, or, there's,
00:36:01.441 --> 00:36:01.921
Patrick Lewis: Correct.
00:36:02.638 --> 00:36:03.808
Jonny: tightrope you're walking
00:36:04.801 --> 00:36:08.371
Patrick Lewis: Yeah, it's, yeah,
it's, funny because it's, one
00:36:08.371 --> 00:36:11.821
of these things where I want
my friends to try the product.
00:36:11.881 --> 00:36:17.321
I don't want my, designer friends
to try the product, and, and but
00:36:17.531 --> 00:36:20.801
that's actually that's the right,
at least so far in my career, that
00:36:20.801 --> 00:36:22.181
I've found that's the right balance.
00:36:22.211 --> 00:36:26.121
Like you, you if you wait too long
to where it's really impressive
00:36:26.121 --> 00:36:30.141
to your designer friends, chances
are like, you've, gotten beat out,
00:36:30.441 --> 00:36:31.971
beat to the punch by someone else.
00:36:32.971 --> 00:36:35.821
but, but if you ship too soon.
00:36:35.821 --> 00:36:37.141
Yeah, exactly.
00:36:38.141 --> 00:36:42.221
yeah, that's yeah, it is
a, constant tension there.
00:36:42.221 --> 00:36:43.911
And, yeah.
00:36:44.911 --> 00:36:47.191
Tom: Ask you one more question,
Patrick, before we switch to our,
00:36:47.851 --> 00:36:48.181
Patrick Lewis: Sure.
00:36:49.181 --> 00:36:53.051
Tom: The, the point you said there
really made me think of this, of as a
00:36:53.051 --> 00:36:57.251
founding designer, in addition to those
two things you mentioned, you're also
00:36:57.431 --> 00:37:03.741
somewhat responsible for knowing when
something is, the workload is beyond
00:37:03.771 --> 00:37:05.271
the scope of what's reasonable for a
00:37:05.394 --> 00:37:05.724
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:37:06.261 --> 00:37:09.291
Tom: and when you should hire someone
or when you should bring in perhaps
00:37:09.291 --> 00:37:12.381
someone to focus more on the brand or
you focus on the product or marketing
00:37:12.381 --> 00:37:14.421
or some other aspect of the craft.
00:37:15.201 --> 00:37:18.861
I think you're in a u unique
position to be able to calibrate
00:37:19.506 --> 00:37:19.896
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:37:19.941 --> 00:37:20.121
Tom: is.
00:37:20.121 --> 00:37:24.471
And I'm curious if that is in the
same point as it was two years ago
00:37:25.431 --> 00:37:30.621
if you now feel like your capacity is
significantly changed as a result of
00:37:30.621 --> 00:37:33.321
using AI to do more adjacent design
00:37:33.490 --> 00:37:33.970
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:37:34.660 --> 00:37:37.630
so I do believe that capacity
has definitely grown.
00:37:38.530 --> 00:37:42.280
I think that's also presenting some
challenges in the job market, right?
00:37:43.210 --> 00:37:46.690
companies feel like they can get more
out of their existing teams, so you're
00:37:46.690 --> 00:37:51.650
seeing hiring slow down or you're seeing,
folks unfortunately get laid off as well.
00:37:52.100 --> 00:37:57.480
and but I, do think the capacity is
greater and I think the scope of the
00:37:57.480 --> 00:37:59.190
things you're able to do is greater.
00:37:59.190 --> 00:38:03.570
So not only are you able to do more, of
it, but you're able to do more of it.
00:38:04.170 --> 00:38:07.450
and, yeah, that's certainly true.
00:38:07.750 --> 00:38:10.090
that bar has definitely,
changed a little bit.
00:38:11.090 --> 00:38:16.040
yeah, I don't, I actually don't know
when the next, like when we will hire,
00:38:16.340 --> 00:38:20.420
I'll let you know when the next hire
for, Clay's design team, happens.
00:38:20.810 --> 00:38:23.810
because I, don't anticipate
it'll be for a while.
00:38:24.810 --> 00:38:30.750
and, but I do also believe in bringing
folks in for specific, disciplines.
00:38:30.750 --> 00:38:34.900
So brand is something that I'm
super passionate about and I
00:38:34.900 --> 00:38:38.680
think is to me at least the
hardest design discipline to nail.
00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:43.900
and so allowing some to just go deep on
that and focus on that while I handle
00:38:43.900 --> 00:38:47.980
all the other things, is, is, valuable.
00:38:48.980 --> 00:38:52.130
Jonny: It found the, the founding
designer loves to be Atlas with the
00:38:52.130 --> 00:38:53.420
weight of the world on their shoulders.
00:38:53.420 --> 00:38:54.140
And as soon as there's
00:38:54.305 --> 00:38:54.815
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:38:54.950 --> 00:38:55.790
Jonny: then you lose that,
00:38:56.790 --> 00:38:57.240
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:38:57.265 --> 00:38:57.555
Yeah.
00:38:57.655 --> 00:38:58.555
It is also, yeah.
00:38:58.555 --> 00:38:58.795
Yeah.
00:38:58.921 --> 00:38:59.131
Jonny: that
00:38:59.745 --> 00:39:00.795
Patrick Lewis: Also, yeah.
00:39:00.841 --> 00:39:01.651
Jonny: hard as nails
00:39:02.130 --> 00:39:02.370
Patrick Lewis: Was it.
00:39:02.401 --> 00:39:04.711
Jonny: know, I'll take it on,
I'll take something else on.
00:39:05.431 --> 00:39:08.101
I'm designing two different things
with my two different hands,
00:39:08.470 --> 00:39:08.950
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:39:09.040 --> 00:39:09.820
Yeah, exactly.
00:39:10.120 --> 00:39:10.690
Exactly.
00:39:10.780 --> 00:39:13.270
But I, yeah, I don't think that's
all that much different from
00:39:13.270 --> 00:39:14.800
just being a founder itself.
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.730
It's it's hard to give that
up and, allow someone else to
00:39:19.630 --> 00:39:21.070
run, with things for a while.
00:39:22.070 --> 00:39:23.490
but, but yeah, for sure.
00:39:24.490 --> 00:39:26.620
Jonny: Should we switch to, fire?
00:39:27.620 --> 00:39:28.100
Tom: yes.
00:39:28.460 --> 00:39:29.450
so Patrick, we have a few
00:39:29.734 --> 00:39:30.124
Patrick Lewis: Oh boy.
00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:34.400
Tom: These are short
questions and hopefully have
00:39:34.538 --> 00:39:34.748
Patrick Lewis: Yep.
00:39:35.748 --> 00:39:38.418
Tom: so we'll just, we'll maybe
pick a couple each and we'll
00:39:38.469 --> 00:39:39.189
Patrick Lewis: Sounds great.
00:39:39.918 --> 00:39:43.488
Tom: My first question for you is
when a GI takes over everything,
00:39:43.908 --> 00:39:44.838
what will you do with all
00:39:45.125 --> 00:39:45.665
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:39:46.235 --> 00:39:48.365
so I thought about this, a little bit.
00:39:48.875 --> 00:39:50.225
so I'm glad you asked it.
00:39:51.225 --> 00:39:57.675
I, I really enjoy chairs and
so I would, just make chairs.
00:39:58.245 --> 00:40:02.775
I would like, get some woodwork
and tools and and go to town.
00:40:03.555 --> 00:40:05.535
big, fan of like interior design stuff.
00:40:05.535 --> 00:40:08.865
And so I think that, making
kind of furniture would be,
00:40:09.225 --> 00:40:12.195
would be really enjoyable and
still allow me to be creative.
00:40:12.915 --> 00:40:18.580
still allow me to see the output and
get user feedback, but, but yeah.
00:40:19.580 --> 00:40:19.910
Tom: Love it.
00:40:19.940 --> 00:40:20.240
Love it.
00:40:20.240 --> 00:40:22.280
So it's particularly wooden chairs,
00:40:22.816 --> 00:40:26.266
Patrick Lewis: I could, I could,
I suppose I could brush back on my
00:40:26.266 --> 00:40:30.496
upholstery skills and maybe, add
some cushions there or something.
00:40:30.496 --> 00:40:31.381
But, yeah.
00:40:32.381 --> 00:40:32.681
Yeah.
00:40:33.681 --> 00:40:36.771
Jonny: of the, three Doors, designers
choose when they answer this question,
00:40:36.771 --> 00:40:42.561
which is the, the buckets of music,
coffee slash meat, and ch and furniture
00:40:42.801 --> 00:40:46.221
slash making things with your hands,
you have chosen door number three.
00:40:46.322 --> 00:40:46.652
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:40:46.652 --> 00:40:47.402
Door number three.
00:40:47.402 --> 00:40:47.792
There you go.
00:40:48.182 --> 00:40:48.902
Exactly.
00:40:49.902 --> 00:40:53.622
Jonny: my question for you is, what's
one thing about your craft that
00:40:53.622 --> 00:40:55.092
you don't want to give over to ai?
00:40:56.092 --> 00:40:56.962
Patrick Lewis: Decision making.
00:40:57.962 --> 00:41:02.982
I, want to have the call, like
a, use like a sports analogy.
00:41:03.222 --> 00:41:05.742
if it's the fourth quarter, like
I want the ball in my hands.
00:41:06.342 --> 00:41:09.312
and so I don't want to hand that over.
00:41:09.912 --> 00:41:14.772
and I, think organizationally it's still
important to have humans own the outcomes.
00:41:15.582 --> 00:41:19.327
and so I think that's probably
the, the thing I'd say.
00:41:20.327 --> 00:41:20.747
Jonny: Amen.
00:41:21.747 --> 00:41:22.347
Tom over to you.
00:41:23.347 --> 00:41:23.947
Tom: Last.
00:41:24.037 --> 00:41:25.027
Yeah, my last question.
00:41:25.027 --> 00:41:28.807
So what is the silliest thing
you've prototyped Purely because you
00:41:29.040 --> 00:41:29.610
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:41:30.450 --> 00:41:35.880
so since moving, since moving to Rhode
Island, I've, gotten back in the gym.
00:41:35.970 --> 00:41:41.350
And, I, despite there being a
million fitness apps out there,
00:41:41.350 --> 00:41:42.850
I definitely made my own.
00:41:43.690 --> 00:41:48.010
but I coded it to just my workout
programme, so it's really a, a single
00:41:48.010 --> 00:41:52.630
player, single user sort of experience,
just completely over-engineered.
00:41:53.050 --> 00:41:59.110
but it allowed me to, to do some branding
and, do a little iOS stuff and, yeah.
00:41:59.110 --> 00:42:04.595
But just absolutely no good reason to have
that and way more work than the utility.
00:42:04.990 --> 00:42:06.790
But, but still fun.
00:42:07.790 --> 00:42:08.270
Tom: Amazing.
00:42:08.660 --> 00:42:09.170
Amazing.
00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:12.140
And, so it's, so the, the
workout itself is hard
00:42:12.170 --> 00:42:12.650
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:42:12.725 --> 00:42:13.015
Yeah.
00:42:13.310 --> 00:42:15.080
The pro, yeah, the workout programme.
00:42:15.080 --> 00:42:17.330
Like how many rep stuff,
it's just like a, yeah.
00:42:18.330 --> 00:42:24.210
but, but I recently talked to my trainer
though, and was like, Hey, listen, I can
00:42:24.210 --> 00:42:26.310
make one of these for all of your clients.
00:42:27.310 --> 00:42:27.970
so we'll see.
00:42:28.030 --> 00:42:29.020
But, but yeah.
00:42:29.938 --> 00:42:30.148
Tom: Yeah.
00:42:30.351 --> 00:42:30.861
Jonny: Nice.
00:42:31.131 --> 00:42:31.551
Nice.
00:42:32.451 --> 00:42:36.201
and my last question and our last
quick fire question is, what is your
00:42:36.201 --> 00:42:37.281
favourite product at the moment?
00:42:38.281 --> 00:42:38.971
Patrick Lewis: Ooh.
00:42:39.971 --> 00:42:40.421
okay.
00:42:41.171 --> 00:42:42.161
Good question.
00:42:42.401 --> 00:42:47.411
Hang on, lemme pull up my phone
here and just do a quick check.
00:42:48.411 --> 00:42:49.941
I'm not gonna say Claude, right?
00:42:49.941 --> 00:42:52.041
Like we can't, like that's just, that's
00:42:52.128 --> 00:42:52.308
Jonny: Some
00:42:52.431 --> 00:42:52.941
Patrick Lewis: bogus.
00:42:53.118 --> 00:42:53.658
Jonny: it We
00:42:53.691 --> 00:42:53.901
Patrick Lewis: No,
00:42:54.078 --> 00:42:54.378
Jonny: you don't.
00:42:54.468 --> 00:42:54.708
Yeah.
00:42:55.128 --> 00:42:55.338
Yeah.
00:42:55.491 --> 00:42:55.591
Patrick Lewis: we can't.
00:42:55.591 --> 00:42:55.601
Yeah.
00:42:56.601 --> 00:42:57.801
we gotta do something cool.
00:42:58.801 --> 00:43:00.711
Oh, granola,
00:43:01.356 --> 00:43:06.666
it's powered, the second
brain, that I have with Clay.
00:43:07.666 --> 00:43:10.366
it's part of my, like PRD workflow.
00:43:11.366 --> 00:43:14.756
it was part of our, newsletter workflow.
00:43:15.756 --> 00:43:19.266
and I just think they've done
a, really, good job at making
00:43:19.266 --> 00:43:22.866
a, a very simple product, do the
thing that it does really well.
00:43:23.796 --> 00:43:28.816
and yeah, I've gotten a, I've gotten a
bunch of people, to adopt it and start
00:43:28.816 --> 00:43:31.601
using it and stuff and yeah, probably go.
00:43:32.601 --> 00:43:34.131
Jonny: Pulling bread
around the corner from us.
00:43:35.131 --> 00:43:35.641
Patrick Lewis: Oh, really?
00:43:36.099 --> 00:43:36.549
Tom: Yeah.
00:43:36.781 --> 00:43:37.291
Patrick Lewis: Oh, very cool.
00:43:37.376 --> 00:43:37.676
Jonny: Yeah.
00:43:38.036 --> 00:43:38.276
Yeah.
00:43:38.431 --> 00:43:38.731
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:43:38.761 --> 00:43:45.271
There, the moment that it clicked for
me was, at the end of last year, they
00:43:45.271 --> 00:43:49.681
do Spotify wrapped and all this sort
of stuff, and granola did their version
00:43:50.221 --> 00:43:57.631
and their wrapped was so accurate and
so good that I realised just how well
00:43:57.631 --> 00:44:03.581
they knew me and knew my work and
knew my team that I was like, got it.
00:44:04.151 --> 00:44:06.761
this is insanely valuable.
00:44:07.761 --> 00:44:09.141
yeah, no, they're, killer.
00:44:09.471 --> 00:44:10.731
I'm, a big fan of what they've built.
00:44:11.731 --> 00:44:12.181
Jonny: Yes.
00:44:12.511 --> 00:44:13.711
Yeah, both.
00:44:13.711 --> 00:44:14.011
Both.
00:44:14.011 --> 00:44:14.761
Also users.
00:44:15.744 --> 00:44:16.014
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:44:16.014 --> 00:44:16.434
Awesome.
00:44:17.434 --> 00:44:19.024
Jonny: Patrick, where
do we find you online?
00:44:19.774 --> 00:44:24.424
there, any, anything you want us to add
into the show notes or, shout out for
00:44:25.424 --> 00:44:29.264
Patrick Lewis: so based on my,
take on design Twitter, you
00:44:29.264 --> 00:44:30.644
won't find me much on Twitter.
00:44:31.574 --> 00:44:36.464
so you can, find me, just on my
website, patrick n lewis.com.
00:44:37.454 --> 00:44:41.744
I, I'll, I occasionally update, do a
little writing, and then I, I share
00:44:41.744 --> 00:44:46.314
some skills that I've made, just based
on my kind of workflow and experience.
00:44:47.314 --> 00:44:47.794
Jonny: Awesome.
00:44:48.794 --> 00:44:50.264
Tom: this has been, super fun.
00:44:50.264 --> 00:44:54.164
Thank you so much for taking the
time to chat with us today, Patrick.
00:44:54.434 --> 00:44:57.194
super cool to hear about your work
and how that's evolved since we
00:44:57.279 --> 00:44:57.699
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:44:58.244 --> 00:45:00.024
Tom: and yeah.
00:45:00.084 --> 00:45:01.044
Yeah, this has been great.
00:45:01.134 --> 00:45:02.544
So let's wrap up there.
00:45:02.874 --> 00:45:05.574
Thanks so much for everyone,
for listening and making it this
00:45:05.574 --> 00:45:07.404
far, and thanks so much, Patrick
00:45:07.419 --> 00:45:07.599
Patrick Lewis: Yeah.
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:08.379
Thank you for having me.
00:45:09.004 --> 00:45:09.424
Cheers.
00:45:09.686 --> 00:45:09.956
Jonny: See you.
00:45:09.961 --> 00:45:10.041
Bye.