Mike Orlowski: Welcome to Mojo Motivation and Mental Health, where we have conversations that change lives. I'm Mike Orlowski. Now before we start today, if you're successful on the outside but struggling on the inside, if you've used achievement to avoid looking at yourself, if you're exhausted from providing your worth, please know that other ways exist. Stewardship instead of survival, authenticity instead of armor. But if you're struggling, call or text 988-The Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Call 911 if it's emergency. You matter beyond your performance. Your hidden struggle is valid. Your next honest step can change everything. Now, if you're listening today, please make sure you like, subscribe, and share this podcast. This is how we help others. There
Mark Holden: Thank you.
Mike Orlowski: are others out there that need to hear the message. In today's conversation, it's about success, money, identity, and why high functioning men can look like they have everything while privately losing themselves. My guest is Mark Holden, a wealth advisor
Mark Holden: Thank you.
Mike Orlowski: and CFP professional. Most people meet him to talk about money. But Mark knows something most wealth advisors won't tell you. Money is rarely the whole subject. Underneath
Mark Holden: Thank you.
Mike Orlowski: a retirement decision can be fear of becoming irrelevant. Underneath the sale of a business can be grief over losing the identity
Mark Holden: Thank
Mike Orlowski: that built it. Underneath decades of accumulation can be a man who doesn't feel safe enough to say, I have enough. Mark's earlier operating system was built on scarcity, limit, and survival. Those instincts made him resourceful, made him work. Taught him to anticipate risk and carry responsibility, and also made him very good at hiding, something us men are really good at doing. I know I am. He became the advisor everyone depended on, the provider, the leader, the one who had it all figured out, while privately losing contact with himself. That's the trap for high functioning men. Success can become armor,
Mark Holden: Thank
Mike Orlowski: money can become proof, work can become a place to hide. And the hardest part, it looks like strength
Mark Holden: you
Mike Orlowski: from the outside. Mark's moved beyond that. His work now invites people to ask, who am I beyond the full performance? What am I building? What am I protecting? And what do I want my wealth to make possible? Not just financial questions, identity questions, soul questions. And his core insight, financial strength and emotional health, are not substitutes for
Mark Holden: Thank
Mike Orlowski: one another. We're going to talk about his early career, the scarcity that drove him. When survival skills started hurting instead of helping, what money can and cannot solve, why business owners feel lost in retirement, and how to move from survival to stewardship. Mark, thank you for being here.
Mark Holden: Mike, thank you for having me on. Really appreciate it.
Mike Orlowski: You're welcome. I'm grateful for you. I'm looking forward to talking further as a another fellow man who has been really good at looking, especially in the past, looking like I had it all going on the outside and not on the inside, I can relate. Now, you're a CFP professional. How did you find your way into wealth advice and into this career?
Mark Holden: Well, I knew that I wanted to help people. I've always known that I enjoy so much helping other people. I fell into the world of financial services. I actually moved up here to Chicago about 19 years ago to pursue theater, stage performance actually,
Mike Orlowski: Hmm.
Mark Holden: and realized fairly quickly that there was very little, if not no, money in the arts. Found myself working with Best Buy. There was a gentleman who came in, asked a ton of questions around. computers and monitors and all the things. And he worked with the startup company that eventually I connected and got an employment with. And so right away, this startup group, which focused on derivative trading, know, stocks, futures, options, Forex, and it was a retail platform that allowed people at home to start trading like professionals. Now, granted, this is about 20 years ago, so it was very new to the retail space. But that's important because although at the time I didn't know much about finance, I was working with individuals from the open outcry pits, the trading pits here in Chicago. As a matter of fact, over my shoulder for the viewing audience is the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. And what's fascinating about that world is it's an entirely different language, the trading world. And so that's how I got my start. It was very... interesting. They used terminology and lexicon far different than my everyday, than many people's everyday. And that got me hooked. And I started going through different channels and discovered that it is advice that I really wanted to focus on. Eventually found myself in the role I'm in today.
Mike Orlowski: Very cool. Yeah, I was as you were talking, I like, Yeah, that had to been back in the day when there really weren't many trading platforms. It really wasn't a thing 'cause nineteen, twenty years ago, even the internet really wasn't that evolved, right?
Mark Holden: Right.
Mike Orlowski: aging myself a bit, but now what did the profession bring out in you? what did wealth management bring out in you at your best? And maybe what does it reward you in that maybe or maybe at the time, what did it reward you in that wasn't healthy?
Mark Holden: Well, to answer the first part of that question, what brought out, what was it that brought out my best? This role, the world of being a wealth manager is extremely entrepreneurial. I set my
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: days, I set my operations, I set everything as stones for my own success, but more importantly, client success. And what that means is I have to show myself in the mirror. I have to look at myself harshly. and say what is working and what is not working. And if I have any inkling that I'm not down the right path, well, either I address it now or it addresses itself with an explosion, with an issue, with a pop, with a bang. And usually people around someone will feel that inauthentic nature.
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: So if I continue to be as authentic as possible, not only am I leveling myself up, but I'm putting clients first. And then that is the value add that I can effectively tell you that I enjoy doing today. Years ago, I did not know that. Years ago, I was in an abyss, right? And I was convincing myself, I was doing all the right things. I was enjoying the successes of my life and yet felt like I wasn't adding enough to the world. But in reality, that was a perception that was totally not in alignment because it was a projection of what I hoped the world to see me as. And so there was a little bit of a roller coaster to discover truly what it is that I know that I'm good at and what I know I'm not. So then we build systems and infrastructure and have the right people like you around us in order to
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: live every day well and thoughtful.
Mike Orlowski: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's ultimately really important in any entrepreneurship role.
Mark Holden: That's right.
Mike Orlowski: maybe what was a r early reward or part of the job that wasn't so healthy for you? Maybe was a struggle.
Mark Holden: Well, bear in mind that I've seen a wide variety of different roles relative to financial services.
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: So I've seen small business, I've seen corporate America, and I'm back to like a boutique small business now. But the value of that is that I've seen a vast, vast world of variations of wealth, socioeconomic differences, behavioral differences. all the demographic differences you could possibly think of. And over time, you get a sense that everyone has the same underlying issues. And by that I mean there's fear. Fear manifests in variety of different ways. There's anxiety. Anxiety manifests in a variety of different ways. What we put on the exterior, the projection, the defensiveness, the hope, the worry, the concern, the shield, it's all labeling. And quite often relative to money, we use money as a label. So I say that, Mike, because to really address your question here, it's like what hurt? What was the painful moments? The painful moments was when I was trying to push my own simple ideologies, my own narrow scope of experiences on people who had a different set of experiences, a different...
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: internal language. And that just didn't work. And of course, because when it doesn't work, then people go other directions or they get frustrated with you. I this is a very natural thing in life anyway. But in the
Mike Orlowski: Yeah. Right, right.
Mark Holden: world of money, it's extremely personal. So many years ago, I had to really find out what it was that people are putting out to the world, what that projection is, how to acknowledge it, how to understand it. and how to care for it. Because if you discount what someone is energetically telling you, well then you'll never have a long-term relationship built.
Mike Orlowski: Yes, very true. that's pretty common. I mean, I think even in a sales role you feel that where sometimes you maybe you're not getting the sale because you're projecting too much of like I'm projecting too much of me and instead of listening to them. So I can relate to that. now you and I've talked and you've survived described part of your internal operating system as being built around scarcity and survival. Where did that come from and how do those instincts actually help you build your career?
Mark Holden: Yeah, this is a very powerful question because like many people, I really didn't grow up around money. And
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: the only lesson, you know, in the household was be frugal. Don't spend. So
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: while that may help at a certain moment of your life career or situation, if you're stuck in that, then you don't grow out of it, which means that is tied to survival. Survival can just be the same 24-hour loop that we're all playing, right? So
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: if you're constantly thinking I need to survive this situation if that's the if that's self narrative I need to survive this situation Well, then you're not thinking opportunistically. You're not thinking what can happen, right? You look at risk only and that there's a balance don't get me wrong. I mean, especially in my world There's the academic side. There's all the numbers on the page, but there's also the inspirational aspirational side What are we actually building toward? Because if you only live for the moment or if you only live for the future, then there's going to be an imbalance that you take out on yourself and take out on others. So in that world of sheer scarcity, don't spend or be frugal. Over time, you lose, also known as opportunity cost, you lose
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: out on investing for yourself, learning about the markets, learning about how money moves, the titling of accounts. All these things are unbelievably important, yet not interesting and not sexy. Right? So if you're constantly worried about what's a threat to me right now, well, the threat is I can't spend money because that is a threat. Well, then you're stuck. You're stuck in this survival mode and you might get a new job. You might switch careers, might, might, might, might, might, but that's all incidental. It's not an intention. So the problem with the scarcity mindset is that It's totally disparate. It's on the other side of intention. And somewhere in the middle is the blend. And so what I'm really discovering in life, Mike, is that this spectrum is a utility that we can draw from. When we wise up effectively, we can draw from the need of focusing on the risk management level or focusing on the aspiration level. You can guide yourself back and forth between them. You're not stuck in either way. But scarcity, just to really wrap this up here, scarcity is going to keep you stuck. The worry of what can I do if it
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: never really pops up on your radar? Well, then nothing pops up on your radar relative to opportunity. So the very thing you're focused on is keeping you stuck in scarcity. that's a formula that will continually frustrate you over time.
Mike Orlowski: Sure. Now I know these same survival instincts that protected you and made you successful may have worked against you as well. and there were times where maybe from the outside people saw you as a successful man, right? An advisor, a provider, a leader, someone who had it all figured out. And I think we've all been in that position before. I know I did or I portrayed that before. When you had those challenges, what couldn't people see? Maybe what were you managing privately? tell us a little bit about. That internal struggle, 'cause I think we can all relate to that.
Mark Holden: Yeah, well, you hit the nail on the head. Managing privately, managing takes effort. And because we, especially men, are really good at managing that forward avatar of I got everything under control, I'm a man of my own island, I can handle these things, that truly is a scarce mindset because you are burning so much mental energy. brain and cognitive and psychological energy holding on to this avatar of I've got, I can handle it. Well,
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: number one, we only have so many, if you want to call them energy units throughout the day. So you burn through those, you're really running on fumes, right? And you don't have an opportunity to think creatively about how to restructure or create lemonade out of lemons kind of thing. You are stuck in that because you were exhausted from maintaining that avatar. And then secondarily, the relationships that you're trying to maintain around you, including relationship with self, it's strained. So then it's a double negative. And then the outcome of this is that, again, you're losing so many days of enjoyment, so many days of creatively thinking outside of that situation and you're foregoing relationships, foregoing opportunities. So then... What's the shift? What is the shift? It's to say, I may not have all the answers after all. And mind you, Mike,
Mike Orlowski: Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Holden: this is even in support of others. I've always wanted to support others. So yes, that's still very possible. But if you're doing it to the sacrifice of self, then eventually you're losing the quality of external value add or external advice as it relates to my world. The balance of the equation is vulnerability is strength. Vulnerability creates invitation for listenership, for seekership, for curiosity, because we can't be mad and curious at the same time. If you're angry and upset with self, and you say, why am I like this at this very moment? What is happening? You start asking those questions. It reshapes the balance, and the temperature gets pulled down. Your nervous system
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: gets pulled down, you start to relax and expand. So you can't hold both of those sides of the equation at the same time. And if you only hold the anger, the frustration, the fear, you could look externally to the outside world as someone who has it together. And the moment you close the door,
Mike Orlowski: Yes. I know that feeling. I miss kinda it was kind of related to my next question. I mean, you've said success can become an armor, right? And that's kind of what it is when you portray yourself to the outside like that. money can become proof, work can become a place to hide, guilty as charged, I did that over and over again in when I was at my worst. What does that look like for you how does that play out in a man's life? Maybe how did that happen to you in and in your past?
Mark Holden: So you're really asking about. tyranny of success, You know, it's like the success as an armor. Is
Mike Orlowski: Yeah.
Mark Holden: that, is that
Mike Orlowski: Yeah, yeah, right. we maybe use success as our armor to portray to the world like, hey, we're doing great, things are fine, look at what I'm doing. For me it was a distraction to others, like making it look like everything was great. And then you like you just said, when you close the door, po you just let down and nobody sees what's really going on because I've got the door closed, it's on the inside.
Mark Holden: Yeah, the word success itself is a very loose word. It's a very loose word because quite often, even though we are attempting to go for success, success is obscure. It is intangible because success means there's a goalpost in the future. So then we're always striving for the future and people talk about moving the goalposts.
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: In my world people say I just need you know a million or four million or X million to retire but that is a Historic precedent and and here's
Mike Orlowski: Yeah.
Mark Holden: here lies the issue if we're always going for what it seems like success based on a historic precedent Then we're always going to be moving the goalposts. There's an old old philosophical phrase that says a man never steps in the same river twice What this means is? The man has new experiences or the river has moved, so it's new freshwater. So if success is a constant evolving thing, then whatever you define as success is going to be redefined in a year or two years. This is why in my world we run projections. You run so many different scenarios to say, OK, what's the likelihood of your money outlasting you given these assumptions? Well, build
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: in the trap doors. Assume that you're going to have lower returns. assume that you're going to have higher inflation, things that are going to challenge your very plan. But in the meantime, success can't just simply be, need to get X dollars because that means I'm going to work arbitrarily harder. Based on who? Based on what? I know there's tons of people out there that are using this idea of success as it relates to what they were pushed on as a child or as a young
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mark Holden: teen, let's call it. If you don't have good mentors or peers or people around you that are always sort of challenging this idea of what success really means, then you're going to anchor your concept on someone else's version of success. And herein lies the
Mike Orlowski: Mm. Mm-hmm. Very true.
Mark Holden: issue. Okay, I need so many dollars to retire. That sounds all good, but there is the bottom 85 % of the iceberg underneath all of that. So if we're operating on the surface level of I need X dollars, but not defining the anchoring mechanism behind it, well then you're just burning the midnight oil unnecessarily trying to prove yourself on a phantom historical precedent. Let me tell you a quick story. I had a client once that I flew across the country to visit and he was talking about all these different ideas that he had with his kids and his family and when he's gonna retire. And I was like, no, this sounds great. But then we started to... to really dig in and it sounds like there was inconsistencies in his understanding of what he wants from his future. So I was like, let's do this, let's whiteboard it. Let's put everything in your entire career on the whiteboard. And I want you to trace for me what happened, where you were geographically, where you were financially, and then just start talking these things out loud. So he's line-iteming, line-iteming, and he's like, well, we moved here and this happened and my wife got mad at me here and now I got the promotion there and. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down, slow down. Go back to this, this moment. You said your wife got mad at you. What, what did you do to resolve that? well, well, well, nothing. just, we kind of moved on. I was like, I don't think you did. I don't think you did. I think you've been stuck at age 27 or whatever it was for the gentlemen. And then he sat back in silence for a long period of time because for the first time he recognized that there was unresolved issues. He was just bulldozing himself into what he thought was an opportunity, but he completely ignored where his family wanted him and the rest of them to be as a unit. So then there was a rift, and he spent two decades past that rift trying to force, force, force, never to resolve the actual underlying issue. The point of this is he was told what success was well before he got married, and then continued to push that as a antagonist inside of his family unit. So once we were able to unwind that, then identity came in stronger and then success changed for him and now he's a much happier individual. So it was an incredible anecdotal but a pretty powerful story.
Mike Orlowski: Yeah, I think that's pretty common for us men especially, 'cause I know there's been instances in the past and where I would just do the same. Like we have an argument, my wife and I, and I'm like, Okay, and all right, I'm moving on. Just figure, okay, well, we're not talking about it anymore. It hasn't come up. I guess we're good. We assume it's good, right? And maybe we shouldn't assume. as men I think we're pretty good at that. Like, okay, I'm at least I'm pretty good at just moving on and let's move on to what's next and The underlying issue is usually still there. So it's one of those things that as I've grown older had to learn to communicate and have conversations and talk through and make sure that we are on the same page. And not a strength of mine. I think that's an important call out.
Mark Holden: Well, on this point, I call this the assumption machine. It's excellent at making assumptions and
Mike Orlowski: Yeah. Yeah. yes.
Mark Holden: by extension shortcuts, right? The mind loves a good shortcut. And if you can figure out a way to
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: capture a traumatic or even little T, little T trauma, traumatic situation, capture
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: it, use it as ornamentation. It says, okay, this is identity because I've captured something And it protected me in a certain time of my life. And now I'm just going to use this as a shortcut going forward. I'm going to assume this is correct and then, you know, defend or attack things as they come up to me. That's the language. That's the instantaneous common language model that our brains like to utilize. And Mike, that's. This is how we operate, right? If I'm getting sensory data from the outside world, it's going to, it's going to go through that filter. of the assumption machine first, which is likely not as accurate as, OK, let me slow down and stay in the moment, because we don't want to have
Mike Orlowski: Right. Right.
Mark Holden: that unease. We want to just keep barreling forward. It's unfortunate.
Mike Orlowski: Well yeah, right. And we wanna feel safe. So, right, sometimes being needed can feel safer than being known, right? Especially for when you're high functioning. we retreat to what feels safe, which a lot of times is that assumption. It's not always a good assumption, but it's the safe one. Why is that so common? I think like you mentioned earlier, one of them is It's what we were kind of grounded in the early days, maybe what we were brought up with and what our family was like in the beginning. is that part of it, do you feel like?
Mark Holden: Well, listen, there's a phrase that people commonly use, an idiom that says, time heals all wounds.
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: Absolutely false. Absolutely false.
Mike Orlowski: Yeah, you're right. you have to do something to heal. Yes.
Mark Holden: That's right. That just means there's just more distraction between you and that event. That's it. I mean, don't
Mike Orlowski: Yeah.
Mark Holden: get me wrong, people do like conclusions. We like to put a little bow tie on certain things
Mike Orlowski: Yes.
Mark Holden: and conclusions may not ever happen. But to be able to say, forgive self, I forgive others is the greatest superpower because it allows you to release. And once release takes place, then we can be, we feel lighter. our cognition, our vision, our feel, our scope of understanding opens. I tell people all the time, like, I can do now more with less than I used to in the past. Because I was
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: just like all what we were talking about, was maintaining the old school avatar, thinking, I gotta barrel through this, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta. But in reality, I was just forcing that on myself. It took a ton of energy to do, and I was living someone else's life.
Mike Orlowski: Well peep yeah, yeah. Go ahead.
Mark Holden: So, yeah, no, just wanted to just to say that I learned that I don't need to beat myself up about the things that I didn't know. I just simply thoughtfully, balance the restructure all the things in my life from a strategic and operational and tactical level so that I don't have to maintain the things that I'm not good at. Process is a smart move at this point, but that's still ancillary to understanding self, know thyself. That's really what I'm trying to drive home here.
Mike Orlowski: But what people, practices or decisions were maybe more most important in helping you begin to move forward in situations like that?
Mark Holden: Well, people was a big one. mean, you and I, we share a common group, The Outlier Project, and it's an amazing
Mike Orlowski: Yes.
Mark Holden: bunch of individuals that are heart-led, that are thoughtful, they're industry agnostic, they are champions of themselves, they are supporters of others. It's an incredible place to find
Mike Orlowski: Very much.
Mark Holden: really incredible people. And so when you start to engage with people that you know are not going to take full advantage of you, then all of sudden,
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: your psychological safety level increases. Well, what increases with psychological safety? Creativity. Exploration. So now you can start to explore inwardly. You know, there's an entire world out there that's worth exploring. Don't get me wrong. But the infinite is inside. The kingdom of God is inside. These are the words that are spoken from much higher levels than myself. Everything is right here. So then we have to be able to say, Where does that interest, where can we solve those problems inside? Sometimes it takes peer leadership and when you find excellent people around you to fulfill those roles of peer leadership and jostle us a little bit, that's really to answer your question here. What was the people situation? Okay, Outlier Project showed up, awesome. I personally started to pour gasoline into that. Who can I find? Who can I resonate with more often? And then you realize like molecules bumping around, you start to find the same humans that are vulnerable, that are doing things scared, but they're doing things. You we know people singing national anthems before MLB games. We know people climbing
Mike Orlowski: Right. Yeah.
Mark Holden: the Himalayas. We know so many interesting human beings doing interesting things. And they openly admit, I'm scared. I'm going to seek some support in this. It's like, wow, I can do that too. So by extension, Mike, You're doing this right now. You're putting on this podcast. And you came to my event in Raleigh, North Carolina called Headspace. I co-hosted with Josh Perry. was an amazing event. And I learned so much from it. But the reason I mention it right now is because if I do a thing, it creates invitation for other people to do a thing as well. And you building your podcast creates invitation. So then I become the same thing that I needed. at the time I needed it the most. So we can we can materially be invitational by doing things scared. And then all of sudden we rally the people around us like like ships in a tie.
Mike Orlowski: Yeah, I think people are the big biggest part of moving forward for me too. And you beat me to the punch with Headspace, but you mentioned psychological safety. And when talking about vulnerability, and that's kind of what happened in the Headspace event too, right? you brought a bunch of us together and we became comfortable with each other. We became comfortable talking about uncomfortable things, and we all left better for it with new connections, new relationships, new comfort levels with our vulnerability. And now you've got your next one is coming up in Dayton. when is the next event?
Mark Holden: Yeah, by the time this one airs, would have been October 15th in Dayton, Ohio.
Mike Orlowski: okay. Okay, great. Yeah. I would ask our listeners to keep an eye out for future events because it's well worth it. It was engaging, it was energizing, it was fun, and it was outside of my comfort zone for sure, and I had a great time with it.
Mark Holden: I appreciate you being there, Mike. I truly do. what's wild, as one of the hosts, myself and Josh Perry, we co-host, while speaking, while going through the content of the day, while going through the exercise that we were all going through, I could see in the eyes of the participants the gears working, the hope coming through, the curiosity, the love, the excitement. I saw that actually coming through and I could feel that energy. And getting to the very opening of the conversation, this is of servitude. I love being of service and no longer will I feel guilty about doing so. I love it. And I truly am going to continue to pour gasoline into this because there's a reciprocity involved too. When I can see in the eyes of the participants of Headspace and future events, I hear it, I feel it, I sense it. And then I can help explain to people that This is more than just this singular moment in time. This is a life altering decision that you are here. So then we build this together. We check as many boxes as possible to say that trust and discretion are the way. How can we ensure that you discover things and have a map going forward? And for me and Josh, that was Headspace.
Mike Orlowski: It was great. Yeah. And actually I met several new people there that I still talk to and network with and connect to today. there were several people that came up to me afterwards that thanked me for sharing my story. It made them feel more comfortable sharing theirs. And it was a fantastic time. So I yeah, I wouldn't recommend it to anybody. now
Mark Holden: Thank you.
Mike Orlowski: one of the things that helped me and I know we've talked about it and Asking help, asking for help can be maybe a strength instead of a weakness, right? Was there a point when maybe you realized that asking for help can be an act of strength rather than evidence of weakness in your life, in your career?
Mark Holden: Yes, and I can give you lot of anecdotes relative to your question here, when you... People online always talk about this idea that work on your blind spots or do things that are uncomfortable. First,
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: if you know it's a blind spot and you're working on it, it's not a blind spot. You need someone else to say with respect what it is that you can't see in yourself.
Mike Orlowski: Very true.
Mark Holden: Number two, the very concept of doing something uncomfortable is not out of spite. If you're doing something quote unquote uncomfortable just to prove that you can do uncomfortable things, well then it's not uncomfortable, is it? I mean, this might sound trite, but I take cold showers. And at first I thought, I'm doing this because I'm a badass. I'm tough. But I do it now all the time anyway, because I know there's scientific evidence to prove that there's a lot of benefits from cognitive to physical. So then actually enjoy it. It's not a point of this is hard. So hard becomes much more esoteric. Hard, just uncomfortable, is looking inward. There's a phrase, it's almost like if you look past the pain, there's the gold, right? All the things worth discovering about yourself are right behind that curtain of pain. So the pain curtain, although it's big, it's very thin. And so that's why you gotta look into the darkness and look past what it is that is most fearful. And then you start to realize, my goodness, there's so much to discover over the abyss. I gotta start putting, I gotta start building the bridge before I know where it goes. Because it becomes momentous. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy to a degree. If I start building, Well, then the building continues. If I don't build, nothing happens. So it's hard to do it on your own. Don't get me wrong. So then this actually gets back to the social function. Get people around you who are of higher caliber. They will care for you. They will ask better questions. They will challenge you. And that's a better version of love than the coddling effect. well,
Mike Orlowski: Right.
Mark Holden: you know what? Just do it again. Do the same thing again. You you've worked hard. Take a load off. Challenge. Challenge with love and care. So the hard, Mike, the hard, this is where I'm getting at, the hard is often just a psychological thing. Yeah, you can go to the gym, can crank out another rep, crank out another PR, great. You gotta imagine in the world of physical, the physical world is completely divorced from the subconscious, from the soul, from the infinity, if you will. So all the fun stuff over here is great and all. build the body, but if it becomes just a function of spite out of I'm going to do something thoughtful and strong and kind so I can tell the world I'm thoughtful, strong and kind, well then you're not doing it for yourself. You're doing it as a guard to gain attention. That's still an external mechanism. So then here's where the heart is. And for the audio listening audience, I'm really referencing something else entirely from the external, the five senses, the outside world, the physical bodybuilding, all those things. It is truly deeper. And if you can do the deeper hard, well, that
Mike Orlowski: Yeah.
Mark Holden: is going to break that subconscious mechanism of self-sabotage that's going to push you past the triggering sequences that are guaranteed to come in the future. We're always getting triggered on a daily basis. And if you say, that's not for me. Well, that's because you haven't done the internal work. And once you get that internal work done, then the trigger becomes, oof, I've sensed this before and I can get through it. And then all of sudden, Dorothy leaves Kansas.
Mike Orlowski: And that's where I think asking for help can get you over the top and it becomes a strength, right? Because sometimes we can't achieve those hard things on our own. We need someone that's already done it. The cold shower thing, for example. Like I've tried it. I've not quite gotten there yet, but I've dipped my toes in it. And I know that's probably the wrong approach because you kinda just like jumping into a pool, you gotta just jump into the cold water. like I growing up, I grew up in Michigan, Lake Huron is always very cold. And We would take a trip over there now and then. My uncle lived up that way and I would like stand in the water. And I was pretty good at like jumping into the pool. But Lake Huron was like seventy-three degrees in the summer at that time. And I remember my uncle's like, No, you just gotta go in. He would just jump right in the water and it's like, it's breathtaking. It just takes your breath away. and so I think asking for help, having I hate to say asking for someone to kind of push you, right? Push you into the water, push you into that next step, push you over that hurdle becomes a strength because it helps you achieve those things and get past that thin line of fear as you talked about, which is completely great analogy, you get through that and on the other side is so much more.
Mark Holden: Like, people build their entire lives avoiding the thin wall of fear.
Mike Orlowski: Yes.
Mark Holden: I mean, people convince themselves that I should be doing this because I want to feel ease. And I get it. going down the path of drugs and alcohol and all the things, it's really just numbing the sensations that we are currently feeling. And that's it. You're
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.
Mark Holden: either escaping or you're diving into growth. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's very doable. And there is people out there, there are hotlines to call, there are ways to get out of this, but it is the initial activity of just throwing the stone in the pond and saying, I can gain, I can get some help. I can grow from just that simple ask. And it's not overnight, but it takes an intention to do. It's
Mike Orlowski: Yeah.
Mark Holden: true.
Mike Orlowski: No, a hundred percent. And now you in when working with folks that are successful, where do financial problems end say and identity problems begin? I think that's pretty common, especially if you're selling a business or if you're retiring. you hear a lot of folks retire and then you they drop dead of a heart attack or they're like, well, I don't know what to do now. where do the problems, financial problems end and then the identity problems begin?
Mark Holden: This is what I like to call impression management versus relationship management. Because if you are constantly impressing upon yourself that you're good at a certain task and then you sell a business, well, it's not like you are now impressing upon yourself that you are someone who sits on the couch and watches Netflix. It doesn't flip like that. So then we can impress upon ourselves that we're good at certain tasks, building a business. or otherwise, but there's a relationship we have with self underneath it all. And if the relationship is, I can grow old. I love how I'm maturing right now. Well
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: then all of sudden the impression side of it is very different. I'm impressing upon myself levels of success that my former generations never had. Great. Now that slowly transitions into building a destiny, I'm sorry, a dynasty, know, helping
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: legacy, helping educate new people, helping show what wisdom is. But if it's purely a transactional piece, you're constantly impressing upon yourself, I'm good at an efficient transaction. So that becomes problematic over time because a
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: lot of people that I know, they don't just flip to doing nothing. They look at other businesses, they look at consulting, they look at board seats, they look at ways of adding
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: value, of being active in their communities. I mean, it could be giving back as well, right? Volunteering
Mike Orlowski: Yes.
Mark Holden: opportunities and mentorships. But
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: that style of a person doesn't just flip. So then if retirement becomes, I had to work for somebody else and now I can simply relieve myself and just let go of all that frustration and constraint, Well, money was never the issue to begin with. Money was the external hope that we're able to exist in the system that we're surrounded in. So the idea here is that if you can impress upon yourself that you are maturing, that you are growing old, that you are not forced to stay young in the sense that I have to be ambitious, I have to be a prover. No. That was the days of old. Now you get to gracefully age, gracefully mature, and still be extremely valuable. And I think people fight that idea of aging gracefully because they think, I will not be seen as valuable. No, no, no, no, my friend. Your value is a function of what you are exuding to the world. And if you exude wisdom, people will continue to come to you whether you are in a position of business ownership or post-exit. So that's an energy.
Mike Orlowski: Like when my dad retired, I can't remember how many years it's been now, but it he got involved, right? he because he used to work seventy, eighty, hundred hours a week when I was in my teens and twenties. I mean he was in the auto industry, it was nuts. And but he retired and he found things to keep him busy. Besides golfing, he would spend a lot of time with the food pantry, volunteering for the church. he's I think Knights of Columbus as well now. So He still finds things that occupy his time, keep his mind sharp, keeps him active. and now that he can't golf as much because of physical ailments, he still is able to keep himself mentally active due to the other activities that he does. those that struggle the most, I've seen, they retire and then they just sit around. they don't have any activities, they don't read, they don't I hate to say your body goes to waste, but it kind of does because you just stop living in all reality.
Mark Holden: Yeah, and therein lies the problem, Mike. You stop living, right? If your intention is to back away
Mike Orlowski: Yeah.
Mark Holden: from work, in the sense of like staying active, you're backing away from work because you can finally relax. Well, then you've built an escape mechanism and you're escaping not just from work, but what life can offer you. And this is where the identity piece is critical because If someone says, I don't want to be of value anymore because value is tied purely to the paycheck that they're getting. I don't want to be of value. Well, then that pours into the other capital of our lives. know,
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: wisdom, ideas, space, energy, relationships, health. Health is the biggest one. It is,
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mark Holden: there's a corollary for sure. And if you're less active, well then cognition slowly starts to collapse. you become much more sedative and then the drug regimen increases and disease starts to come in. Like this is way beyond my scope as a wealth manager for sure. But the evidence is there. So identity was never officially tied to money. Money is the labeling mechanism that we can say I am worth X. But is it just that's my only worth? No, right? I can create and right now I have X, I will continue to create. But we don't have to worry about the dollar necessarily. We worry about the pure tangible value of wisdom share and giving back and staying active. Like all those things are going to play into a smarter system to begin with. And then you get to reevaluate your entire choices. what am I spending money on entirely? Okay, well, you know what? My financial plan says current level of expenses, that might not get me to where I want to go. If I reduce that maybe by 10, 15%, I can live an extraordinary life and stay active and watch the kids and, and, and, and, and. So it's like, well, then it becomes a much easier decision. I'm not forced to enjoy this existing lifestyle choice. I can actually reduce, you know, outflow and expenses and, and still be okay because that's not the main goal. It could be the goal. I mean, that, that's the, that's a unique dichotomy. of financial planning. There's the academic side and then there's the opportunistic, the aspirational side. So if
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: someone is purely saying, show me the maximum budget that I can live within, great, let's solve for that. But what are you actually trying to achieve? zero? There's no achievement aspiration? Well, here's the numbers. That's all you need.
Mike Orlowski: don't recommend that as the only approach either, right? So, because then you're not living. now you have a collaboration, a book coming out, Men, Money, and Mental Health with fellow outlier member Nic Angai Galindo also was on the podcast. Tell us a little bit about the book that's coming out and what made you decide to want to be part of it.
Mark Holden: Yeah, Nicole is fabulous. And what's really cool about her is that she does her own publishes, her own publishing company. And so her focus is breaking the stigma across a variety of different dimensions. And in this case, it's men, money and mental health. And so me and I believe 10 other authors collaborated together to all write our own chapter as it relates to our history, our story, our perspective on money and the constraints and the opportunities that it creates. I wanted to be a part of that because again, like we talked about earlier in the conversation, if you can create, if you can act and do, then you become a beacon, an inspiration for others that don't know where to put their energy. You know, if we all have this frenetic energy inside and we can't actually visualize what others are doing, well, then we'll just stay in this frenetic state. But if you can mind map what you can do, what is possible based on the actions of somebody else, then you have a direction. Whether it's the best in the world or not doesn't matter. You have direction and direction lends itself to learning. So if I, or if you Mike can be a version of a direction, you know, a direction anchor for someone, then take the action. You take it scared too. When Nic originally came to me and said, hey, would you like to be a part of this project? My immediate reaction was, God, no. I was like, my, wait, this is, stay curious, Mark, why? Because it's a little, you're in a state of fear. You're concerned about that, but that's an old nervous system response that I can learn from and push through. So yes, do it scared. And then now there's by the time this airs, the book will be have been published, Men, Money and Mental Health, which I encourage everyone to grab a copy of. And the idea is that you, you get a, you gain a variety of different perspectives from men across multiple different industries and see what it means to them, money and relationships in general. So it was, it's a powerful book to be a part of for sure. And I learned a lot about the process, having written in long time outside of my own LinkedIn posts. And it was very engaging. I really enjoyed it.
Mike Orlowski: Cool. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it coming out. we talked about it a little bit with Nic on the podcast as well. And I'll make sure to share that link in the show notes when it goes live as well. part of your work really involves moving people from survival to stewardship. From your perspective, what does that mean? What would you say to say someone who's listening who's maybe been operating in survival mode their whole life, and how do they take that next step?
Mark Holden: This is a complicated answer. because here's the thing, Mike, if you say, all you gotta do is that, all you gotta do is that, it'll never work. It'll never work. So, what we're gonna talk about is environmental building. We gotta prune, we gotta cut relationships that are vortexes, that are energy vampires, that are people that just say, you know what, here, have another beer, you'll be all right. Where does that get you, right? That's the self-assessment. Where does it get you? So if we can start to prune relationships that are just pulling us back, then
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: the field of vision opens. You start to see different things. Also, devices, maybe just put it down for a few hours. We need to give ourselves space. So it's not a very simple answer. But one of the most important things is environmental building. Social connection, incredible. Reducing the time spent on the phone, incredible. Sunlight, incredible. They're all environmental choices. So we have to build the foundation first. This is all a staging process. And if you can't do it on your own, that's okay. There's an ask for help function. There's an ask
Mike Orlowski: Sure. Yeah.
Mark Holden: for help function. And once you say, hey pal, can you help me out? I'm just, I'm struggling to work through an idea, an idea. People always say, the language is what we hang our hats on, but that's not the case. Okay. People come at me and literally at me all the time with a wide variety of different challenging things that's going on. I don't accept the face value of the language that they're using. I'm listening for their energy, their worry, their fear. Usually the first thing people talk about is just a projection of their hope that they're received. So then maybe the better question is how can we become better beacons for other people? That's the critical piece. Yes, there's people listening right now who could use some help and love. But advice alone, if you're talking at someone, it's rarely received. It's a bump in motivation and then a recoiling, a relapse effect takes place. So the better question is, Mike, how can you and I and the listening audience become beacons? And so if you're trying it on your own, environmental building is the way to go for sure. But if we can become beacons, then we rally the troops around us to say, you know what, maybe I can revisit. Maybe I can. better understand what it is that I'm a little concerned about and start just to crack that door. Hope that answers your question.
Mike Orlowski: Sure. No, it's really important. I mean, for me it's become about evolving and learning how can I help others? What can I do to help you to, connect you to somebody to, make a difference in someone's life with the podcast versus, used to be seven, ten years ago is like I, I, I, right? And it took me a lot of years to figure it out and depression played a part of it, but becoming more involved in Choosing to be happy, choosing to be kind, asking what I can do to help others. And, that's the to me the needle mover. That's the difference maker. Mark, thank you. your messages about success, armor, stewardship. It's powerful, it's important. it's been an exciting conversation to learn your perspective. How can people connect to you, find out more about you?
Mark Holden: Thank you, Mike, for having me on the show. If you want to learn more about me, feel free to follow me on LinkedIn, Mark Holden, CFP, CWS, and you can go to VestorCapital.com, learn about me and my team. What is incredibly exciting is that there's a lot of terminology that might be unknown, right? The lexicon that we use here in the world of finance, financial services, it might seem overwhelming, but in reality, we... people like myself are here to hold the hand of the person looking to manage and steward their wealth. That's the whole game, right? And we
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: do so with the person in mind. That's why I personally love working with Investor Capital because I actually interviewed with many different advisors and only one stood out. One had a reoccurring value system that everyone in the organization had the same message to me, which is why I work at this company right now. So everybody's a little bit different, perfectly fine. But make the ask, we're all here to help.
Mike Orlowski: I love that. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. And what I would say to folks listening today is, if you're successful on the outside, but you're struggling on the inside, if you've been using achievement to avoid yourself, if you're exhausted from proving your worth, remember there are resources out there. There's help available. You can call or text 988, the suicide and crisis line. There are opportunities for help. You can talk with someone. asking for help is a strength. and what Mark taught us today, survival skill builds careers. But they do have a shadow side. Success can become armor. Money becomes proof. Work becomes hiding. Guilty as charged. And the hardest part, it all looks like strength from the outside. But what Mark discovered was financial strength and emotional health are not substitutes for one another. Money can solve real problems, but it cannot decide what enough means. It cannot tell you who you are beyond your performance.
Mark Holden: Thank
Mike Orlowski: That's where Stewardship comes in. Moving from survival to stewardship means asking. Who am I beyond performance? What am I building? What am I protecting? And what do I want my wealth to make possible? And Mark knows this. Asking for help isn't weakness. I've learned that the hard way myself. It's a strength. It's the next honest step can change everything. I'm Mike Orlowski. This is Mojo Motivation and Mental Health. Move from survival to stewardship, from armor to authenticity, and from being needed to being known. Get your mojo back. Thank you.
Mark Holden: Thank you.
Mike Orlowski: are others out there that need to hear the message. In today's conversation, it's about success, money, identity, and why high functioning men can look like they have everything while privately losing themselves. My guest is Mark Holden, a wealth advisor
Mark Holden: Thank you.
Mike Orlowski: and CFP professional. Most people meet him to talk about money. But Mark knows something most wealth advisors won't tell you. Money is rarely the whole subject. Underneath
Mark Holden: Thank you.
Mike Orlowski: a retirement decision can be fear of becoming irrelevant. Underneath the sale of a business can be grief over losing the identity
Mark Holden: Thank
Mike Orlowski: that built it. Underneath decades of accumulation can be a man who doesn't feel safe enough to say, I have enough. Mark's earlier operating system was built on scarcity, limit, and survival. Those instincts made him resourceful, made him work. Taught him to anticipate risk and carry responsibility, and also made him very good at hiding, something us men are really good at doing. I know I am. He became the advisor everyone depended on, the provider, the leader, the one who had it all figured out, while privately losing contact with himself. That's the trap for high functioning men. Success can become armor,
Mark Holden: Thank
Mike Orlowski: money can become proof, work can become a place to hide. And the hardest part, it looks like strength
Mark Holden: you
Mike Orlowski: from the outside. Mark's moved beyond that. His work now invites people to ask, who am I beyond the full performance? What am I building? What am I protecting? And what do I want my wealth to make possible? Not just financial questions, identity questions, soul questions. And his core insight, financial strength and emotional health, are not substitutes for
Mark Holden: Thank
Mike Orlowski: one another. We're going to talk about his early career, the scarcity that drove him. When survival skills started hurting instead of helping, what money can and cannot solve, why business owners feel lost in retirement, and how to move from survival to stewardship. Mark, thank you for being here.
Mark Holden: Mike, thank you for having me on. Really appreciate it.
Mike Orlowski: You're welcome. I'm grateful for you. I'm looking forward to talking further as a another fellow man who has been really good at looking, especially in the past, looking like I had it all going on the outside and not on the inside, I can relate. Now, you're a CFP professional. How did you find your way into wealth advice and into this career?
Mark Holden: Well, I knew that I wanted to help people. I've always known that I enjoy so much helping other people. I fell into the world of financial services. I actually moved up here to Chicago about 19 years ago to pursue theater, stage performance actually,
Mike Orlowski: Hmm.
Mark Holden: and realized fairly quickly that there was very little, if not no, money in the arts. Found myself working with Best Buy. There was a gentleman who came in, asked a ton of questions around. computers and monitors and all the things. And he worked with the startup company that eventually I connected and got an employment with. And so right away, this startup group, which focused on derivative trading, know, stocks, futures, options, Forex, and it was a retail platform that allowed people at home to start trading like professionals. Now, granted, this is about 20 years ago, so it was very new to the retail space. But that's important because although at the time I didn't know much about finance, I was working with individuals from the open outcry pits, the trading pits here in Chicago. As a matter of fact, over my shoulder for the viewing audience is the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. And what's fascinating about that world is it's an entirely different language, the trading world. And so that's how I got my start. It was very... interesting. They used terminology and lexicon far different than my everyday, than many people's everyday. And that got me hooked. And I started going through different channels and discovered that it is advice that I really wanted to focus on. Eventually found myself in the role I'm in today.
Mike Orlowski: Very cool. Yeah, I was as you were talking, I like, Yeah, that had to been back in the day when there really weren't many trading platforms. It really wasn't a thing 'cause nineteen, twenty years ago, even the internet really wasn't that evolved, right?
Mark Holden: Right.
Mike Orlowski: aging myself a bit, but now what did the profession bring out in you? what did wealth management bring out in you at your best? And maybe what does it reward you in that maybe or maybe at the time, what did it reward you in that wasn't healthy?
Mark Holden: Well, to answer the first part of that question, what brought out, what was it that brought out my best? This role, the world of being a wealth manager is extremely entrepreneurial. I set my
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: days, I set my operations, I set everything as stones for my own success, but more importantly, client success. And what that means is I have to show myself in the mirror. I have to look at myself harshly. and say what is working and what is not working. And if I have any inkling that I'm not down the right path, well, either I address it now or it addresses itself with an explosion, with an issue, with a pop, with a bang. And usually people around someone will feel that inauthentic nature.
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: So if I continue to be as authentic as possible, not only am I leveling myself up, but I'm putting clients first. And then that is the value add that I can effectively tell you that I enjoy doing today. Years ago, I did not know that. Years ago, I was in an abyss, right? And I was convincing myself, I was doing all the right things. I was enjoying the successes of my life and yet felt like I wasn't adding enough to the world. But in reality, that was a perception that was totally not in alignment because it was a projection of what I hoped the world to see me as. And so there was a little bit of a roller coaster to discover truly what it is that I know that I'm good at and what I know I'm not. So then we build systems and infrastructure and have the right people like you around us in order to
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: live every day well and thoughtful.
Mike Orlowski: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's ultimately really important in any entrepreneurship role.
Mark Holden: That's right.
Mike Orlowski: maybe what was a r early reward or part of the job that wasn't so healthy for you? Maybe was a struggle.
Mark Holden: Well, bear in mind that I've seen a wide variety of different roles relative to financial services.
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: So I've seen small business, I've seen corporate America, and I'm back to like a boutique small business now. But the value of that is that I've seen a vast, vast world of variations of wealth, socioeconomic differences, behavioral differences. all the demographic differences you could possibly think of. And over time, you get a sense that everyone has the same underlying issues. And by that I mean there's fear. Fear manifests in variety of different ways. There's anxiety. Anxiety manifests in a variety of different ways. What we put on the exterior, the projection, the defensiveness, the hope, the worry, the concern, the shield, it's all labeling. And quite often relative to money, we use money as a label. So I say that, Mike, because to really address your question here, it's like what hurt? What was the painful moments? The painful moments was when I was trying to push my own simple ideologies, my own narrow scope of experiences on people who had a different set of experiences, a different...
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: internal language. And that just didn't work. And of course, because when it doesn't work, then people go other directions or they get frustrated with you. I this is a very natural thing in life anyway. But in the
Mike Orlowski: Yeah. Right, right.
Mark Holden: world of money, it's extremely personal. So many years ago, I had to really find out what it was that people are putting out to the world, what that projection is, how to acknowledge it, how to understand it. and how to care for it. Because if you discount what someone is energetically telling you, well then you'll never have a long-term relationship built.
Mike Orlowski: Yes, very true. that's pretty common. I mean, I think even in a sales role you feel that where sometimes you maybe you're not getting the sale because you're projecting too much of like I'm projecting too much of me and instead of listening to them. So I can relate to that. now you and I've talked and you've survived described part of your internal operating system as being built around scarcity and survival. Where did that come from and how do those instincts actually help you build your career?
Mark Holden: Yeah, this is a very powerful question because like many people, I really didn't grow up around money. And
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: the only lesson, you know, in the household was be frugal. Don't spend. So
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: while that may help at a certain moment of your life career or situation, if you're stuck in that, then you don't grow out of it, which means that is tied to survival. Survival can just be the same 24-hour loop that we're all playing, right? So
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: if you're constantly thinking I need to survive this situation if that's the if that's self narrative I need to survive this situation Well, then you're not thinking opportunistically. You're not thinking what can happen, right? You look at risk only and that there's a balance don't get me wrong. I mean, especially in my world There's the academic side. There's all the numbers on the page, but there's also the inspirational aspirational side What are we actually building toward? Because if you only live for the moment or if you only live for the future, then there's going to be an imbalance that you take out on yourself and take out on others. So in that world of sheer scarcity, don't spend or be frugal. Over time, you lose, also known as opportunity cost, you lose
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: out on investing for yourself, learning about the markets, learning about how money moves, the titling of accounts. All these things are unbelievably important, yet not interesting and not sexy. Right? So if you're constantly worried about what's a threat to me right now, well, the threat is I can't spend money because that is a threat. Well, then you're stuck. You're stuck in this survival mode and you might get a new job. You might switch careers, might, might, might, might, might, but that's all incidental. It's not an intention. So the problem with the scarcity mindset is that It's totally disparate. It's on the other side of intention. And somewhere in the middle is the blend. And so what I'm really discovering in life, Mike, is that this spectrum is a utility that we can draw from. When we wise up effectively, we can draw from the need of focusing on the risk management level or focusing on the aspiration level. You can guide yourself back and forth between them. You're not stuck in either way. But scarcity, just to really wrap this up here, scarcity is going to keep you stuck. The worry of what can I do if it
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: never really pops up on your radar? Well, then nothing pops up on your radar relative to opportunity. So the very thing you're focused on is keeping you stuck in scarcity. that's a formula that will continually frustrate you over time.
Mike Orlowski: Sure. Now I know these same survival instincts that protected you and made you successful may have worked against you as well. and there were times where maybe from the outside people saw you as a successful man, right? An advisor, a provider, a leader, someone who had it all figured out. And I think we've all been in that position before. I know I did or I portrayed that before. When you had those challenges, what couldn't people see? Maybe what were you managing privately? tell us a little bit about. That internal struggle, 'cause I think we can all relate to that.
Mark Holden: Yeah, well, you hit the nail on the head. Managing privately, managing takes effort. And because we, especially men, are really good at managing that forward avatar of I got everything under control, I'm a man of my own island, I can handle these things, that truly is a scarce mindset because you are burning so much mental energy. brain and cognitive and psychological energy holding on to this avatar of I've got, I can handle it. Well,
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: number one, we only have so many, if you want to call them energy units throughout the day. So you burn through those, you're really running on fumes, right? And you don't have an opportunity to think creatively about how to restructure or create lemonade out of lemons kind of thing. You are stuck in that because you were exhausted from maintaining that avatar. And then secondarily, the relationships that you're trying to maintain around you, including relationship with self, it's strained. So then it's a double negative. And then the outcome of this is that, again, you're losing so many days of enjoyment, so many days of creatively thinking outside of that situation and you're foregoing relationships, foregoing opportunities. So then... What's the shift? What is the shift? It's to say, I may not have all the answers after all. And mind you, Mike,
Mike Orlowski: Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Holden: this is even in support of others. I've always wanted to support others. So yes, that's still very possible. But if you're doing it to the sacrifice of self, then eventually you're losing the quality of external value add or external advice as it relates to my world. The balance of the equation is vulnerability is strength. Vulnerability creates invitation for listenership, for seekership, for curiosity, because we can't be mad and curious at the same time. If you're angry and upset with self, and you say, why am I like this at this very moment? What is happening? You start asking those questions. It reshapes the balance, and the temperature gets pulled down. Your nervous system
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: gets pulled down, you start to relax and expand. So you can't hold both of those sides of the equation at the same time. And if you only hold the anger, the frustration, the fear, you could look externally to the outside world as someone who has it together. And the moment you close the door,
Mike Orlowski: Yes. I know that feeling. I miss kinda it was kind of related to my next question. I mean, you've said success can become an armor, right? And that's kind of what it is when you portray yourself to the outside like that. money can become proof, work can become a place to hide, guilty as charged, I did that over and over again in when I was at my worst. What does that look like for you how does that play out in a man's life? Maybe how did that happen to you in and in your past?
Mark Holden: So you're really asking about. tyranny of success, You know, it's like the success as an armor. Is
Mike Orlowski: Yeah.
Mark Holden: that, is that
Mike Orlowski: Yeah, yeah, right. we maybe use success as our armor to portray to the world like, hey, we're doing great, things are fine, look at what I'm doing. For me it was a distraction to others, like making it look like everything was great. And then you like you just said, when you close the door, po you just let down and nobody sees what's really going on because I've got the door closed, it's on the inside.
Mark Holden: Yeah, the word success itself is a very loose word. It's a very loose word because quite often, even though we are attempting to go for success, success is obscure. It is intangible because success means there's a goalpost in the future. So then we're always striving for the future and people talk about moving the goalposts.
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: In my world people say I just need you know a million or four million or X million to retire but that is a Historic precedent and and here's
Mike Orlowski: Yeah.
Mark Holden: here lies the issue if we're always going for what it seems like success based on a historic precedent Then we're always going to be moving the goalposts. There's an old old philosophical phrase that says a man never steps in the same river twice What this means is? The man has new experiences or the river has moved, so it's new freshwater. So if success is a constant evolving thing, then whatever you define as success is going to be redefined in a year or two years. This is why in my world we run projections. You run so many different scenarios to say, OK, what's the likelihood of your money outlasting you given these assumptions? Well, build
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: in the trap doors. Assume that you're going to have lower returns. assume that you're going to have higher inflation, things that are going to challenge your very plan. But in the meantime, success can't just simply be, need to get X dollars because that means I'm going to work arbitrarily harder. Based on who? Based on what? I know there's tons of people out there that are using this idea of success as it relates to what they were pushed on as a child or as a young
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mark Holden: teen, let's call it. If you don't have good mentors or peers or people around you that are always sort of challenging this idea of what success really means, then you're going to anchor your concept on someone else's version of success. And herein lies the
Mike Orlowski: Mm. Mm-hmm. Very true.
Mark Holden: issue. Okay, I need so many dollars to retire. That sounds all good, but there is the bottom 85 % of the iceberg underneath all of that. So if we're operating on the surface level of I need X dollars, but not defining the anchoring mechanism behind it, well then you're just burning the midnight oil unnecessarily trying to prove yourself on a phantom historical precedent. Let me tell you a quick story. I had a client once that I flew across the country to visit and he was talking about all these different ideas that he had with his kids and his family and when he's gonna retire. And I was like, no, this sounds great. But then we started to... to really dig in and it sounds like there was inconsistencies in his understanding of what he wants from his future. So I was like, let's do this, let's whiteboard it. Let's put everything in your entire career on the whiteboard. And I want you to trace for me what happened, where you were geographically, where you were financially, and then just start talking these things out loud. So he's line-iteming, line-iteming, and he's like, well, we moved here and this happened and my wife got mad at me here and now I got the promotion there and. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down, slow down. Go back to this, this moment. You said your wife got mad at you. What, what did you do to resolve that? well, well, well, nothing. just, we kind of moved on. I was like, I don't think you did. I don't think you did. I think you've been stuck at age 27 or whatever it was for the gentlemen. And then he sat back in silence for a long period of time because for the first time he recognized that there was unresolved issues. He was just bulldozing himself into what he thought was an opportunity, but he completely ignored where his family wanted him and the rest of them to be as a unit. So then there was a rift, and he spent two decades past that rift trying to force, force, force, never to resolve the actual underlying issue. The point of this is he was told what success was well before he got married, and then continued to push that as a antagonist inside of his family unit. So once we were able to unwind that, then identity came in stronger and then success changed for him and now he's a much happier individual. So it was an incredible anecdotal but a pretty powerful story.
Mike Orlowski: Yeah, I think that's pretty common for us men especially, 'cause I know there's been instances in the past and where I would just do the same. Like we have an argument, my wife and I, and I'm like, Okay, and all right, I'm moving on. Just figure, okay, well, we're not talking about it anymore. It hasn't come up. I guess we're good. We assume it's good, right? And maybe we shouldn't assume. as men I think we're pretty good at that. Like, okay, I'm at least I'm pretty good at just moving on and let's move on to what's next and The underlying issue is usually still there. So it's one of those things that as I've grown older had to learn to communicate and have conversations and talk through and make sure that we are on the same page. And not a strength of mine. I think that's an important call out.
Mark Holden: Well, on this point, I call this the assumption machine. It's excellent at making assumptions and
Mike Orlowski: Yeah. Yeah. yes.
Mark Holden: by extension shortcuts, right? The mind loves a good shortcut. And if you can figure out a way to
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: capture a traumatic or even little T, little T trauma, traumatic situation, capture
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: it, use it as ornamentation. It says, okay, this is identity because I've captured something And it protected me in a certain time of my life. And now I'm just going to use this as a shortcut going forward. I'm going to assume this is correct and then, you know, defend or attack things as they come up to me. That's the language. That's the instantaneous common language model that our brains like to utilize. And Mike, that's. This is how we operate, right? If I'm getting sensory data from the outside world, it's going to, it's going to go through that filter. of the assumption machine first, which is likely not as accurate as, OK, let me slow down and stay in the moment, because we don't want to have
Mike Orlowski: Right. Right.
Mark Holden: that unease. We want to just keep barreling forward. It's unfortunate.
Mike Orlowski: Well yeah, right. And we wanna feel safe. So, right, sometimes being needed can feel safer than being known, right? Especially for when you're high functioning. we retreat to what feels safe, which a lot of times is that assumption. It's not always a good assumption, but it's the safe one. Why is that so common? I think like you mentioned earlier, one of them is It's what we were kind of grounded in the early days, maybe what we were brought up with and what our family was like in the beginning. is that part of it, do you feel like?
Mark Holden: Well, listen, there's a phrase that people commonly use, an idiom that says, time heals all wounds.
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: Absolutely false. Absolutely false.
Mike Orlowski: Yeah, you're right. you have to do something to heal. Yes.
Mark Holden: That's right. That just means there's just more distraction between you and that event. That's it. I mean, don't
Mike Orlowski: Yeah.
Mark Holden: get me wrong, people do like conclusions. We like to put a little bow tie on certain things
Mike Orlowski: Yes.
Mark Holden: and conclusions may not ever happen. But to be able to say, forgive self, I forgive others is the greatest superpower because it allows you to release. And once release takes place, then we can be, we feel lighter. our cognition, our vision, our feel, our scope of understanding opens. I tell people all the time, like, I can do now more with less than I used to in the past. Because I was
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: just like all what we were talking about, was maintaining the old school avatar, thinking, I gotta barrel through this, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta. But in reality, I was just forcing that on myself. It took a ton of energy to do, and I was living someone else's life.
Mike Orlowski: Well peep yeah, yeah. Go ahead.
Mark Holden: So, yeah, no, just wanted to just to say that I learned that I don't need to beat myself up about the things that I didn't know. I just simply thoughtfully, balance the restructure all the things in my life from a strategic and operational and tactical level so that I don't have to maintain the things that I'm not good at. Process is a smart move at this point, but that's still ancillary to understanding self, know thyself. That's really what I'm trying to drive home here.
Mike Orlowski: But what people, practices or decisions were maybe more most important in helping you begin to move forward in situations like that?
Mark Holden: Well, people was a big one. mean, you and I, we share a common group, The Outlier Project, and it's an amazing
Mike Orlowski: Yes.
Mark Holden: bunch of individuals that are heart-led, that are thoughtful, they're industry agnostic, they are champions of themselves, they are supporters of others. It's an incredible place to find
Mike Orlowski: Very much.
Mark Holden: really incredible people. And so when you start to engage with people that you know are not going to take full advantage of you, then all of sudden,
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: your psychological safety level increases. Well, what increases with psychological safety? Creativity. Exploration. So now you can start to explore inwardly. You know, there's an entire world out there that's worth exploring. Don't get me wrong. But the infinite is inside. The kingdom of God is inside. These are the words that are spoken from much higher levels than myself. Everything is right here. So then we have to be able to say, Where does that interest, where can we solve those problems inside? Sometimes it takes peer leadership and when you find excellent people around you to fulfill those roles of peer leadership and jostle us a little bit, that's really to answer your question here. What was the people situation? Okay, Outlier Project showed up, awesome. I personally started to pour gasoline into that. Who can I find? Who can I resonate with more often? And then you realize like molecules bumping around, you start to find the same humans that are vulnerable, that are doing things scared, but they're doing things. You we know people singing national anthems before MLB games. We know people climbing
Mike Orlowski: Right. Yeah.
Mark Holden: the Himalayas. We know so many interesting human beings doing interesting things. And they openly admit, I'm scared. I'm going to seek some support in this. It's like, wow, I can do that too. So by extension, Mike, You're doing this right now. You're putting on this podcast. And you came to my event in Raleigh, North Carolina called Headspace. I co-hosted with Josh Perry. was an amazing event. And I learned so much from it. But the reason I mention it right now is because if I do a thing, it creates invitation for other people to do a thing as well. And you building your podcast creates invitation. So then I become the same thing that I needed. at the time I needed it the most. So we can we can materially be invitational by doing things scared. And then all of sudden we rally the people around us like like ships in a tie.
Mike Orlowski: Yeah, I think people are the big biggest part of moving forward for me too. And you beat me to the punch with Headspace, but you mentioned psychological safety. And when talking about vulnerability, and that's kind of what happened in the Headspace event too, right? you brought a bunch of us together and we became comfortable with each other. We became comfortable talking about uncomfortable things, and we all left better for it with new connections, new relationships, new comfort levels with our vulnerability. And now you've got your next one is coming up in Dayton. when is the next event?
Mark Holden: Yeah, by the time this one airs, would have been October 15th in Dayton, Ohio.
Mike Orlowski: okay. Okay, great. Yeah. I would ask our listeners to keep an eye out for future events because it's well worth it. It was engaging, it was energizing, it was fun, and it was outside of my comfort zone for sure, and I had a great time with it.
Mark Holden: I appreciate you being there, Mike. I truly do. what's wild, as one of the hosts, myself and Josh Perry, we co-host, while speaking, while going through the content of the day, while going through the exercise that we were all going through, I could see in the eyes of the participants the gears working, the hope coming through, the curiosity, the love, the excitement. I saw that actually coming through and I could feel that energy. And getting to the very opening of the conversation, this is of servitude. I love being of service and no longer will I feel guilty about doing so. I love it. And I truly am going to continue to pour gasoline into this because there's a reciprocity involved too. When I can see in the eyes of the participants of Headspace and future events, I hear it, I feel it, I sense it. And then I can help explain to people that This is more than just this singular moment in time. This is a life altering decision that you are here. So then we build this together. We check as many boxes as possible to say that trust and discretion are the way. How can we ensure that you discover things and have a map going forward? And for me and Josh, that was Headspace.
Mike Orlowski: It was great. Yeah. And actually I met several new people there that I still talk to and network with and connect to today. there were several people that came up to me afterwards that thanked me for sharing my story. It made them feel more comfortable sharing theirs. And it was a fantastic time. So I yeah, I wouldn't recommend it to anybody. now
Mark Holden: Thank you.
Mike Orlowski: one of the things that helped me and I know we've talked about it and Asking help, asking for help can be maybe a strength instead of a weakness, right? Was there a point when maybe you realized that asking for help can be an act of strength rather than evidence of weakness in your life, in your career?
Mark Holden: Yes, and I can give you lot of anecdotes relative to your question here, when you... People online always talk about this idea that work on your blind spots or do things that are uncomfortable. First,
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: if you know it's a blind spot and you're working on it, it's not a blind spot. You need someone else to say with respect what it is that you can't see in yourself.
Mike Orlowski: Very true.
Mark Holden: Number two, the very concept of doing something uncomfortable is not out of spite. If you're doing something quote unquote uncomfortable just to prove that you can do uncomfortable things, well then it's not uncomfortable, is it? I mean, this might sound trite, but I take cold showers. And at first I thought, I'm doing this because I'm a badass. I'm tough. But I do it now all the time anyway, because I know there's scientific evidence to prove that there's a lot of benefits from cognitive to physical. So then actually enjoy it. It's not a point of this is hard. So hard becomes much more esoteric. Hard, just uncomfortable, is looking inward. There's a phrase, it's almost like if you look past the pain, there's the gold, right? All the things worth discovering about yourself are right behind that curtain of pain. So the pain curtain, although it's big, it's very thin. And so that's why you gotta look into the darkness and look past what it is that is most fearful. And then you start to realize, my goodness, there's so much to discover over the abyss. I gotta start putting, I gotta start building the bridge before I know where it goes. Because it becomes momentous. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy to a degree. If I start building, Well, then the building continues. If I don't build, nothing happens. So it's hard to do it on your own. Don't get me wrong. So then this actually gets back to the social function. Get people around you who are of higher caliber. They will care for you. They will ask better questions. They will challenge you. And that's a better version of love than the coddling effect. well,
Mike Orlowski: Right.
Mark Holden: you know what? Just do it again. Do the same thing again. You you've worked hard. Take a load off. Challenge. Challenge with love and care. So the hard, Mike, the hard, this is where I'm getting at, the hard is often just a psychological thing. Yeah, you can go to the gym, can crank out another rep, crank out another PR, great. You gotta imagine in the world of physical, the physical world is completely divorced from the subconscious, from the soul, from the infinity, if you will. So all the fun stuff over here is great and all. build the body, but if it becomes just a function of spite out of I'm going to do something thoughtful and strong and kind so I can tell the world I'm thoughtful, strong and kind, well then you're not doing it for yourself. You're doing it as a guard to gain attention. That's still an external mechanism. So then here's where the heart is. And for the audio listening audience, I'm really referencing something else entirely from the external, the five senses, the outside world, the physical bodybuilding, all those things. It is truly deeper. And if you can do the deeper hard, well, that
Mike Orlowski: Yeah.
Mark Holden: is going to break that subconscious mechanism of self-sabotage that's going to push you past the triggering sequences that are guaranteed to come in the future. We're always getting triggered on a daily basis. And if you say, that's not for me. Well, that's because you haven't done the internal work. And once you get that internal work done, then the trigger becomes, oof, I've sensed this before and I can get through it. And then all of sudden, Dorothy leaves Kansas.
Mike Orlowski: And that's where I think asking for help can get you over the top and it becomes a strength, right? Because sometimes we can't achieve those hard things on our own. We need someone that's already done it. The cold shower thing, for example. Like I've tried it. I've not quite gotten there yet, but I've dipped my toes in it. And I know that's probably the wrong approach because you kinda just like jumping into a pool, you gotta just jump into the cold water. like I growing up, I grew up in Michigan, Lake Huron is always very cold. And We would take a trip over there now and then. My uncle lived up that way and I would like stand in the water. And I was pretty good at like jumping into the pool. But Lake Huron was like seventy-three degrees in the summer at that time. And I remember my uncle's like, No, you just gotta go in. He would just jump right in the water and it's like, it's breathtaking. It just takes your breath away. and so I think asking for help, having I hate to say asking for someone to kind of push you, right? Push you into the water, push you into that next step, push you over that hurdle becomes a strength because it helps you achieve those things and get past that thin line of fear as you talked about, which is completely great analogy, you get through that and on the other side is so much more.
Mark Holden: Like, people build their entire lives avoiding the thin wall of fear.
Mike Orlowski: Yes.
Mark Holden: I mean, people convince themselves that I should be doing this because I want to feel ease. And I get it. going down the path of drugs and alcohol and all the things, it's really just numbing the sensations that we are currently feeling. And that's it. You're
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.
Mark Holden: either escaping or you're diving into growth. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's very doable. And there is people out there, there are hotlines to call, there are ways to get out of this, but it is the initial activity of just throwing the stone in the pond and saying, I can gain, I can get some help. I can grow from just that simple ask. And it's not overnight, but it takes an intention to do. It's
Mike Orlowski: Yeah.
Mark Holden: true.
Mike Orlowski: No, a hundred percent. And now you in when working with folks that are successful, where do financial problems end say and identity problems begin? I think that's pretty common, especially if you're selling a business or if you're retiring. you hear a lot of folks retire and then you they drop dead of a heart attack or they're like, well, I don't know what to do now. where do the problems, financial problems end and then the identity problems begin?
Mark Holden: This is what I like to call impression management versus relationship management. Because if you are constantly impressing upon yourself that you're good at a certain task and then you sell a business, well, it's not like you are now impressing upon yourself that you are someone who sits on the couch and watches Netflix. It doesn't flip like that. So then we can impress upon ourselves that we're good at certain tasks, building a business. or otherwise, but there's a relationship we have with self underneath it all. And if the relationship is, I can grow old. I love how I'm maturing right now. Well
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: then all of sudden the impression side of it is very different. I'm impressing upon myself levels of success that my former generations never had. Great. Now that slowly transitions into building a destiny, I'm sorry, a dynasty, know, helping
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: legacy, helping educate new people, helping show what wisdom is. But if it's purely a transactional piece, you're constantly impressing upon yourself, I'm good at an efficient transaction. So that becomes problematic over time because a
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: lot of people that I know, they don't just flip to doing nothing. They look at other businesses, they look at consulting, they look at board seats, they look at ways of adding
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: value, of being active in their communities. I mean, it could be giving back as well, right? Volunteering
Mike Orlowski: Yes.
Mark Holden: opportunities and mentorships. But
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: that style of a person doesn't just flip. So then if retirement becomes, I had to work for somebody else and now I can simply relieve myself and just let go of all that frustration and constraint, Well, money was never the issue to begin with. Money was the external hope that we're able to exist in the system that we're surrounded in. So the idea here is that if you can impress upon yourself that you are maturing, that you are growing old, that you are not forced to stay young in the sense that I have to be ambitious, I have to be a prover. No. That was the days of old. Now you get to gracefully age, gracefully mature, and still be extremely valuable. And I think people fight that idea of aging gracefully because they think, I will not be seen as valuable. No, no, no, no, my friend. Your value is a function of what you are exuding to the world. And if you exude wisdom, people will continue to come to you whether you are in a position of business ownership or post-exit. So that's an energy.
Mike Orlowski: Like when my dad retired, I can't remember how many years it's been now, but it he got involved, right? he because he used to work seventy, eighty, hundred hours a week when I was in my teens and twenties. I mean he was in the auto industry, it was nuts. And but he retired and he found things to keep him busy. Besides golfing, he would spend a lot of time with the food pantry, volunteering for the church. he's I think Knights of Columbus as well now. So He still finds things that occupy his time, keep his mind sharp, keeps him active. and now that he can't golf as much because of physical ailments, he still is able to keep himself mentally active due to the other activities that he does. those that struggle the most, I've seen, they retire and then they just sit around. they don't have any activities, they don't read, they don't I hate to say your body goes to waste, but it kind of does because you just stop living in all reality.
Mark Holden: Yeah, and therein lies the problem, Mike. You stop living, right? If your intention is to back away
Mike Orlowski: Yeah.
Mark Holden: from work, in the sense of like staying active, you're backing away from work because you can finally relax. Well, then you've built an escape mechanism and you're escaping not just from work, but what life can offer you. And this is where the identity piece is critical because If someone says, I don't want to be of value anymore because value is tied purely to the paycheck that they're getting. I don't want to be of value. Well, then that pours into the other capital of our lives. know,
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: wisdom, ideas, space, energy, relationships, health. Health is the biggest one. It is,
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mark Holden: there's a corollary for sure. And if you're less active, well then cognition slowly starts to collapse. you become much more sedative and then the drug regimen increases and disease starts to come in. Like this is way beyond my scope as a wealth manager for sure. But the evidence is there. So identity was never officially tied to money. Money is the labeling mechanism that we can say I am worth X. But is it just that's my only worth? No, right? I can create and right now I have X, I will continue to create. But we don't have to worry about the dollar necessarily. We worry about the pure tangible value of wisdom share and giving back and staying active. Like all those things are going to play into a smarter system to begin with. And then you get to reevaluate your entire choices. what am I spending money on entirely? Okay, well, you know what? My financial plan says current level of expenses, that might not get me to where I want to go. If I reduce that maybe by 10, 15%, I can live an extraordinary life and stay active and watch the kids and, and, and, and, and. So it's like, well, then it becomes a much easier decision. I'm not forced to enjoy this existing lifestyle choice. I can actually reduce, you know, outflow and expenses and, and still be okay because that's not the main goal. It could be the goal. I mean, that, that's the, that's a unique dichotomy. of financial planning. There's the academic side and then there's the opportunistic, the aspirational side. So if
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: someone is purely saying, show me the maximum budget that I can live within, great, let's solve for that. But what are you actually trying to achieve? zero? There's no achievement aspiration? Well, here's the numbers. That's all you need.
Mike Orlowski: don't recommend that as the only approach either, right? So, because then you're not living. now you have a collaboration, a book coming out, Men, Money, and Mental Health with fellow outlier member Nic Angai Galindo also was on the podcast. Tell us a little bit about the book that's coming out and what made you decide to want to be part of it.
Mark Holden: Yeah, Nicole is fabulous. And what's really cool about her is that she does her own publishes, her own publishing company. And so her focus is breaking the stigma across a variety of different dimensions. And in this case, it's men, money and mental health. And so me and I believe 10 other authors collaborated together to all write our own chapter as it relates to our history, our story, our perspective on money and the constraints and the opportunities that it creates. I wanted to be a part of that because again, like we talked about earlier in the conversation, if you can create, if you can act and do, then you become a beacon, an inspiration for others that don't know where to put their energy. You know, if we all have this frenetic energy inside and we can't actually visualize what others are doing, well, then we'll just stay in this frenetic state. But if you can mind map what you can do, what is possible based on the actions of somebody else, then you have a direction. Whether it's the best in the world or not doesn't matter. You have direction and direction lends itself to learning. So if I, or if you Mike can be a version of a direction, you know, a direction anchor for someone, then take the action. You take it scared too. When Nic originally came to me and said, hey, would you like to be a part of this project? My immediate reaction was, God, no. I was like, my, wait, this is, stay curious, Mark, why? Because it's a little, you're in a state of fear. You're concerned about that, but that's an old nervous system response that I can learn from and push through. So yes, do it scared. And then now there's by the time this airs, the book will be have been published, Men, Money and Mental Health, which I encourage everyone to grab a copy of. And the idea is that you, you get a, you gain a variety of different perspectives from men across multiple different industries and see what it means to them, money and relationships in general. So it was, it's a powerful book to be a part of for sure. And I learned a lot about the process, having written in long time outside of my own LinkedIn posts. And it was very engaging. I really enjoyed it.
Mike Orlowski: Cool. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it coming out. we talked about it a little bit with Nic on the podcast as well. And I'll make sure to share that link in the show notes when it goes live as well. part of your work really involves moving people from survival to stewardship. From your perspective, what does that mean? What would you say to say someone who's listening who's maybe been operating in survival mode their whole life, and how do they take that next step?
Mark Holden: This is a complicated answer. because here's the thing, Mike, if you say, all you gotta do is that, all you gotta do is that, it'll never work. It'll never work. So, what we're gonna talk about is environmental building. We gotta prune, we gotta cut relationships that are vortexes, that are energy vampires, that are people that just say, you know what, here, have another beer, you'll be all right. Where does that get you, right? That's the self-assessment. Where does it get you? So if we can start to prune relationships that are just pulling us back, then
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: the field of vision opens. You start to see different things. Also, devices, maybe just put it down for a few hours. We need to give ourselves space. So it's not a very simple answer. But one of the most important things is environmental building. Social connection, incredible. Reducing the time spent on the phone, incredible. Sunlight, incredible. They're all environmental choices. So we have to build the foundation first. This is all a staging process. And if you can't do it on your own, that's okay. There's an ask for help function. There's an ask
Mike Orlowski: Sure. Yeah.
Mark Holden: for help function. And once you say, hey pal, can you help me out? I'm just, I'm struggling to work through an idea, an idea. People always say, the language is what we hang our hats on, but that's not the case. Okay. People come at me and literally at me all the time with a wide variety of different challenging things that's going on. I don't accept the face value of the language that they're using. I'm listening for their energy, their worry, their fear. Usually the first thing people talk about is just a projection of their hope that they're received. So then maybe the better question is how can we become better beacons for other people? That's the critical piece. Yes, there's people listening right now who could use some help and love. But advice alone, if you're talking at someone, it's rarely received. It's a bump in motivation and then a recoiling, a relapse effect takes place. So the better question is, Mike, how can you and I and the listening audience become beacons? And so if you're trying it on your own, environmental building is the way to go for sure. But if we can become beacons, then we rally the troops around us to say, you know what, maybe I can revisit. Maybe I can. better understand what it is that I'm a little concerned about and start just to crack that door. Hope that answers your question.
Mike Orlowski: Sure. No, it's really important. I mean, for me it's become about evolving and learning how can I help others? What can I do to help you to, connect you to somebody to, make a difference in someone's life with the podcast versus, used to be seven, ten years ago is like I, I, I, right? And it took me a lot of years to figure it out and depression played a part of it, but becoming more involved in Choosing to be happy, choosing to be kind, asking what I can do to help others. And, that's the to me the needle mover. That's the difference maker. Mark, thank you. your messages about success, armor, stewardship. It's powerful, it's important. it's been an exciting conversation to learn your perspective. How can people connect to you, find out more about you?
Mark Holden: Thank you, Mike, for having me on the show. If you want to learn more about me, feel free to follow me on LinkedIn, Mark Holden, CFP, CWS, and you can go to VestorCapital.com, learn about me and my team. What is incredibly exciting is that there's a lot of terminology that might be unknown, right? The lexicon that we use here in the world of finance, financial services, it might seem overwhelming, but in reality, we... people like myself are here to hold the hand of the person looking to manage and steward their wealth. That's the whole game, right? And we
Mike Orlowski: Mm-hmm.
Mark Holden: do so with the person in mind. That's why I personally love working with Investor Capital because I actually interviewed with many different advisors and only one stood out. One had a reoccurring value system that everyone in the organization had the same message to me, which is why I work at this company right now. So everybody's a little bit different, perfectly fine. But make the ask, we're all here to help.
Mike Orlowski: I love that. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. And what I would say to folks listening today is, if you're successful on the outside, but you're struggling on the inside, if you've been using achievement to avoid yourself, if you're exhausted from proving your worth, remember there are resources out there. There's help available. You can call or text 988, the suicide and crisis line. There are opportunities for help. You can talk with someone. asking for help is a strength. and what Mark taught us today, survival skill builds careers. But they do have a shadow side. Success can become armor. Money becomes proof. Work becomes hiding. Guilty as charged. And the hardest part, it all looks like strength from the outside. But what Mark discovered was financial strength and emotional health are not substitutes for one another. Money can solve real problems, but it cannot decide what enough means. It cannot tell you who you are beyond your performance.
Mark Holden: Thank
Mike Orlowski: That's where Stewardship comes in. Moving from survival to stewardship means asking. Who am I beyond performance? What am I building? What am I protecting? And what do I want my wealth to make possible? And Mark knows this. Asking for help isn't weakness. I've learned that the hard way myself. It's a strength. It's the next honest step can change everything. I'm Mike Orlowski. This is Mojo Motivation and Mental Health. Move from survival to stewardship, from armor to authenticity, and from being needed to being known. Get your mojo back. Thank you.
