WEBVTT
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Hi, and welcome to another episode of Making Vinyl at MasterDisc.
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I'm Scott Hall, the owner and chief engineer of MasterDisc, and I'm here today with my colleague, friend, bass player, and songwriter, extraordinaire KJ of the Odyssey.
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Hello, hello.
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Hey man, it's been a been a little while since we talked, and um uh everyone's in the uh pre-holiday preparation mode right now.
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We're um you know, we're actually taping this the day before Thanksgiving.
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So belated, happy Thanksgiving to everyone.
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Um I almost didn't show up today.
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Uh my brain, my brain was been on vacation since Monday.
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I don't know.
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You know, it's it's not enough that it's a short a three-day week.
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I I I have to switch off Monday morning.
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I I can't even think straight.
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I don't know what my problem is.
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Phone the whole weekend, I see.
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Okay.
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Well, yeah, what there is up it.
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I uh yeah, I walked into the deli this morning and and and um the uh woman who runs our deli in our building um gets so happy when it's Friday, you know, and um I kind of share that elation with her.
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And I said so um and I said this morning, so when is a Wednesday also a Friday?
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And yes indeed.
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Yes indeed.
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And I'm very proud of I'm very proud of us Americans for inventing a four-day week, uh four-day weekend.
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Yeah, yeah.
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We do about we do it best.
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Except we haven't figured out how to take a whole month off like the Europeans do.
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Well, rest assured, I'm working on that every single day.
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And as soon as I have it figured out, I will let you know.
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Please, please.
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It has something to do with becoming independently wealthy.
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Damn it.
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It's always, always about the money.
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It is, it is.
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But there is always the option of not knocking over a liquor store, and I feel like you know we can fall back on that if necessary.
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Yeah, unfortunately, my close fans know that when I say I I've got to go ahead and bank, that they know I'm I am kidding.
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But one day you might not be.
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I hope.
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Um, yeah, uh that's possible.
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The way things are going.
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So let's talk about vinyl, shall we?
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Well, that's what we're here to do.
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That's what we're here to do.
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That's what we're here to do.
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All right.
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So uh a listener wrote in with a question um uh about original pressings, and that led me to my own um anecdote about original pressings, which of course will lead me to a question uh for you.
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So um the so the the the listener's question notwithstanding, let me bitch for a second.
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But I bought an original pressing of Pat Matheny's Bright Size Life with um, you know, with Jocko Pastorius on bass, my one of my favorite bass players of all time.
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And I was very, very excited about this thing.
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And it arrived, and um, it looked like an original pressing um in that it it looked old.
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Um and it was it's flimsy and it's a little scratchy, and I noticed the grooves aren't very deep.
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And all in all, I gotta say, it's really not that fantastic of a listening experience.
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Um so did I just um did I just blow a bunch of cash for nothing?
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I mean, i is that the way this always is?
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How where do you stand on original pressings?
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That's my question.
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Oh boy, big uh big questi big question.
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Um I um I kind of wish it was easy to um to just to just say um that uh original pressings are always great and remastered you know always um you know can't hold a candle to them.
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But uh unfortunately, uh as it would always be in this world where uh you know in the real world um everything depends and you actually have to you have to do um do the diligence and uh take some chances uh to find the you know what is it uh you gotta break a lot of eggs to make an omelet.
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You gotta open a bunch of bunch of lots of find a prince.
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Yes, absolutely.
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Cliche cliche um in in the aggregate in general, and original pressing that's you know hasn't been abused should display for you, should play for you what the original producer really intended.
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I mean it's it should hold true to the original to the original m uh master.
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But original pressing doesn't always mean initial or first run initial pressing.
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We often talk about um I have talked about the MasterDisc stamp that we put in the dead wax uh on on anything that was cut here at MasterDisc.
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So let me give you a uh a little bit of history, a little history lesson of the way records were made, you know, in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.
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Early 90s, 70s and 80s mostly.
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Um okay, major label project.
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Uh this was probably uh um this was this was probably an ECM um project for Pat Matheny.
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I think so, yeah.
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That would make sense.
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So it's you know, small, small major, you know, or maybe large major depending on what type type of music you're looking at.
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The the artist and the producer control the creative project um and would usually bring the masters to the mastering studio and oftentimes uh attend the mastering session, making sure that that it's sonically exactly the way they wanted it.
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And at the end of that mastering session, reference disks would be cut, and then subsequently within the next few days, we'd get an approval from them.
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And once approved, the label would order a set of master lacquers from us and tell us where to send them or which pressing plant they were gonna be processed at.
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And in many cases, we would at that point be making two copies or even three copies of the masters and sending them to different plants.
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Um many of the labels that were gonna ship, if they were gonna ship more than, you know, 10,000, 20,000 records, they would split the printing up into multiple places.
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And if they were going to service the whole US, then they would usually have a plant on the East Coast and another plant on the West Coast, so that shipping costs uh would be mitigated or be limited.
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But the idea there was that each one of those three masters cut um should be identical.
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They were made from the original master tape, they all have their master to stamp on them, and they would all have the more or less the same scribe number, the same master number in the dead wax.
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But there will usually be some variations.
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Um, like for Sony or CBS records, um, there would be an AL for the A-side and a B L for the B side.
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That's an A L P and a B L P.
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Um, but then there would be usually a numeral after that.
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So A L1, A L2, A L3.
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Those were the iterations of how many different times that that particular A-side was cut.
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Um you might also see after the scribe number the words R-E or R E two or R E three, those were revised versions that were made either because the parts were damaged in the plant or because there was some technical problem that caused that particular one to be uh defective.
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Uh so there's some clues that you can get from the scribe numbers, but not everybody held to the same, not only standards, but the same procedure.
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But if you've got a disc that's got a mark on it that indicates that it was uh cut at a particular um mastering studio like Sterling or Master Disc or um Bernie Grudman or Frankfurt Wayne or um there's a number of places in Nashville that were cutting original masters like um Georgetown Masters, etc.
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Um and the same thing goes with England and other countries where where you have a a named person that cut that record, that's what I would call an original first pressing.
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Even though there's multiples of them, uh they're not all first pressings, they were original creations from the mastering studio.
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So that's that's kind of your best product.
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And it's my understanding, my observation that the you know the discs that were cut at MasterDisc that have the Master Disc stamp actually sell for higher prices um on the resale in the resale market uh because of that.
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Well, rest assured, I paid a I paid a handful for this.
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So what is the um what is the inscription look like on your disc?
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What does it what does it say on the inside?
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That's a very good question.
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I have no idea.
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Um I can't Well, I'll why don't why don't I continue the story and I'll let you look at it.
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Okay.
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So keep talking.
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The next step is um after the initial pressing is uh has gone and the the the label notices that there's you know good sales happening, they would often order a quarter inch analog tape copy from Mastering from us, um, and it would get put in their vault.
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Now um on subsequent recuts, after the first um you know, 20, 30, 40,000 records had been manufactured, maybe even the first hundred thousand, depending on the artist, the labels production par department, some you know, series months or even years later, decides, well, we need to make more records.
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We're we're low on stock and we we think this record is going to keep selling.
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So they go into the vault, they find that quarter-inch tape copy, and they send it to usually a different cutting studio, oftentimes their own in-house studio, and that engineer then makes a cut master and puts a scribe number on it that's similar to the series that was originally created, but now this disc is done not under the confines of the producer and the original artist, but is done as a manufactured product.
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It's completely legit, it's completely you know um approved, you know.
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This is a standard standard process, but this the subsequent pressings are made from a tape copy of the of the original, not from the original.
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And that in itself is only a minor problem.
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Um you can notice the difference if it was a Steeley Dan record or if it was a Pat Methaney record, where you know um it's it's all about the the you know uh uh engineer performance prowess and engineering skill, and it's got you know, it's a sonic sculpture.
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Yeah, you can probably notice you probably would notice the degradation.
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But the other thing that happens is we it doesn't have the oversight of the master cutting engineer, and it doesn't have the the quality control that they put into the that first pressing, that first release.
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Um so what typically happens, um that um in-house uh label cutting studio, uh cutting engineer sends that part, that new parts out to the plant, and the plant makes a whole bunch of records, and somebody at the label's office, you know, likes to look at the jacket, says, yep, looks like a record, open it up and said, Yeah, it looks like a record.
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They drop the needle on the first band.
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It's like, eh, it's a little noisy, but eh, it's it's you know, this thing's selling like hotcakes.
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It's it's it's it's fine.
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Um, and you're in most cases, the producer and artist don't have any input on onto that, on that.
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But subsequent productions, once the artist is or the producer is signed off um on the production run, it's totally at the discretion of the label then.
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Now, there are labels that don't do that.
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There are um boutique labels like Jeski or um um Mofi, Mobile Fidelity, and things like that.
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Those there are boutique labels that absolutely don't do that.
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Every one of their releases is a first first run original copy, and you can really have high integrity all the way through the production process, and um because their their name stands for high fidelity, high high quality.
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Um the mass-produced labels, not so much, some some much better than others.
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You know, a very popular European uh classical label, Deutsche Grammophone, um, you know, was pretty well known for, and in my observation, was really had the quality control under under uh control.
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Um they those their releases always sounded good and they they always sounded quite consistent.
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They use some of the best processes and they use really good product and you know raw materials.
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But I digress.
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What's so what's happened with that second pressing is they look just exactly like the original pressings, but it's not the same cut and it's not done on the same blade, and it's not really, you know, if you put it right up against that original pressing, it might be very, very obvious that it was um yeah inferior.
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The label though tended to if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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You know, they um they if they weren't getting returns, and if the record kept selling, then then it was okay as far as they were concerned.
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I'm throwing everybody under the bus, and I don't mean to do that.
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They're definitely screw them.
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Who needs them?
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So let me tell you what this thing.
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So I'm looking at the thing printed in the dead wax, right?
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That's where you're uh Yeah, there'll be numbers and some symbols.
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Okay, so um from what I can see here, it says ECM-1-1073B1.
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And then there's a little circle sort of icon thing that I can't quite make out, and then a number.
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Is that circle and s?
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Is there an S inside that circle?
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Maybe that would be special.
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Specialty records.
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It was all the only one that I happen to know full firsthand.
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Um yeah, back in the day they didn't tell us much about where they were pressed and stuff.
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They did want to really keep most of the stuff kind of secret as an aside, um, of all of the any releases that I'm involved in, I I I highly advocate putting the actual cutting facility, the pressing facility, the plating facility, and and who did the artwork, you know, on the outside of the record so that the the buyer can actually see it before they make their purchase.
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Um my feeling there is if you credit uh all of the people that made that record, I think it communicates to the world that we're proud of the way it sounds and the proud of the way it looks.
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And we put our name on it and we stand for this level of quality.
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And um if it's not there, then I think um there's some suspicion about how it was produced.
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You know, there's l lots and lots of vinyl being made these again these days, but um it's not all the same.
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No, indeed.
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Um So did that stuff on the on that I read you did that mean anything to it?
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Well it's at ECM.
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I I guess right.
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It's a ECM um label, as that would have been their their their uh matrix code.
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And um A1 and B1 uh A1 B1 um probably means it was it was likely early on in the production, but this can be a little mistake it can be a little um deceiving.
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Thank you.
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Um I'm here for you.
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Uh because this what this also could have been a licensee copy.
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Um uh it it it's it doesn't sound like it was a European import, but um European uh licensed copies were made um in the same way.
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Tape copies were sent overseas and somebody else cut it and a whole nother realm of records were made.
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Some every once in a while, though, a funny thing happens.
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If a US label um does kind of a mediocre job of pressing a record, but then sends a copy of the master tape out to Europe and they do a really nice job of pressing it, sometimes the imports will actually sound better.
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Um, even though they're made from a copy.
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Um, the actual pressing quality is will uh is higher.
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It doesn't always happen that way, but that's it's an interesting caveat that it's not always worse because it's a copy.
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It just really has to do with how much time and effort and how much care goes into the making of it, either in the first pass or the subsequent passes.
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I know my friend Otto has um, you know, who's just a complete audiophile, vinyl head has no shortage of you know, Japanese imports and uh uh European imports.
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And so my you know, my next question was going to be, you know, regardless of its originality, is it you know, is it is the is it really all it's cracked up to be?
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Are you you know, I know you're you're so you're uh almost always paying a little bit more for it.
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Um but your your explanation is maybe it's actually worth it because it's possible they did a better job with the actual production, right?
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Yeah, it's my first statement on that is um working from the original master is always better than working from a copy.
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But um uh there's a lot of other processes beyond that that have a profound impact on the uh ultimately on the quality.
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Within the you know, the pro mastering community, the the the names of the studios that I mentioned earlier, you know, we take great pride in in doing the very highest quality that we possibly can uh in all of our cuts.
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And so, um, like I said, our names on it, and so we stand up for that.
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Most of the imports and almost all of the second and third pressings, there's no initials or identification mark on them who created it.
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So it's really hard to know.
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And of course, it's not printed on the jacket anywhere, so you have no idea until you've opened it.
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Um there's a uh company, the name escapes me at the moment.
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Maybe if I think of it, I'll put it in the in the uh comments.
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But um they uh had some press uh about two years ago where they they they were going around and listening to individual they were buying up lots of copies of vinyl, which hadn't really gotten super expensive yet.
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They were going through and cataloging, um, you know, they'd have multiple copies of the same title, and they would um listen creatively, but also listen technically and monitor technically what was going on with that record, and they would give it a score.
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They would use that score to derive a list of what they called hot stampers, where where a particular run cut by a particular person on a particular day, that particular engraving was really good and was premium, and then they would sell those copies for exceptional large amounts of money.
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Um for the die-hard, you know, uh Coltrane or Davis fans or the um uh Sinatra or Springsteen fan that that wanted the ultimate copy of um Darkness uh on the edge of town.
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Um, because if you compare it all the different uh we call these matrix numbers.
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If you if you compare all the the different uh variations of matrix numbers, you could really find um one batch that's probably better.
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That's that that just kind of was even if it was just magic, it's it's gonna be better.
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And I know I'm doing a lot of talking, but there's also another issue.
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Um stampers wear out.
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You can have two identical engravings, one that was done in the first hundred copies of that record, and one that was in the you know, after the presses run a thousand copies or more.
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And um, you will notice a difference in the quality of the record just based on how many records that stamper has made.
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Huh.
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:39.519
You know, what what's fascinating about this to me is uh that the you know these become sort of living, breathing um, you know, there's so much natural fundamental um variation, you know, across these things.
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:46.880
And I never I never knew any of the the stuff that you just said about the you know the stamper wearing out and the different versions of it and and the matrix numbers.
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And it just it at first blush I think, geez, that's annoying.
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Like, you know, how am I gonna, you know, who who the hell is the time to go and look for for the perfect copy?
00:19:55.680 --> 00:20:09.200
But in fact, it it adds just such a a wonderful level of depth to um to music and to and to collecting, you know, something that that an artist puts out that it's actually really I I find it very cool.
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:29.680
Well, it's it makes it really um payoff, makes it really uh worth it when you find that that amazing copy, um, and as it is somewhat of a needle on a haystack, and it's it keeps all of us thumbing through used record bins, kind of hoping to find you know something that communicates to us and is a you know a um a a well-preserved copy.
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Well, I've been done my fair share of crate digging.
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:37.759
I don't think I ever knew quite uh I I never knew the extent of what it was possible to look for in there.
00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:41.759
And now I'm gonna be, God, now I'm gonna spend all this time staring at matrix numbers.
00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:42.720
Thanks a lot.
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:48.720
Well, um I'm old enough that I literally need to carry some magnification along with me or a really good light.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:58.799
Uh I would I would stick a little pen light in your pocket because you know, when it you know, like a groovy record store, you're you're barely gonna be able to even see the the the writing, let alone uh identify what it is.
00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:01.119
But I guess well I think that's what the iPhone's for.
00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:02.240
Yeah, well, there you go.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:06.000
And it's also really hard to photograph uh because the records are so reflective.
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:14.319
You try to photograph the matrix number and it's um it's it's almost always um maybe the new phone where maybe the new wide angle phone would capture that better.
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:19.920
But I always have trouble um making a photograph of the um uh of the inscription.
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.920
Um so there's where's that website?
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:48.160
Um I haven't I haven't uh come across this in a while, but there is a um if you if you look up up under um Dead Wax Um scribe numbers or matrix numbers, um pretty near the top of that list you're gonna find a site that has catalogued all the different cutting engineers' marks um and has attempted to correlate that to a particular engineer in a particular time period.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:57.680
Um my mark is a so it's sort of interconnected S and an H, um where the the the line for the H kind of goes almost goes through the S.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:01.279
It's when I do it right, it almost looks like dollar sign H.
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:03.359
Okay, so that that's my mark.
00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:07.839
And um and it's usually just to the right of the of the Master Disc stamp.
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:13.119
So Bob Ludwig uh had his mark that was an R and an L for Robert Ludwig.
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:15.519
Andy Vandt was another colored Master Disc.
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:22.079
He had an interlocking A V D and the V kind of looked like a W.
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:30.559
Anyway, so we um you know it's not that different from a a cattle brand um back in the in the old West days.
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:34.559
But um that mark um tells a little bit of the story.
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:42.799
Tell us a little bit about the equipment that was used if you know the history of that person uh tells a little story about the integrity of that product.
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:52.640
And um you you'll find some engineers that um just consistently get you know great sounding cuts out of them and and others maybe less consistent.
00:22:52.799 --> 00:23:34.799
Yeah uh it's um but it's uh it's a another piece of the puzzle the um the stamp is huge the the mastering studio stamp um we've talked about independent mastering before but remember the um prior to the mid-70s mastering was all done in the label's own inside um operations and uh in other words there was there was virtually no independent mastering the record label took the recording tape from the down the hall brought it down to a cutting room and they made a lacquer um so that the artist could take their their mix home for the day and and listen to it and then later that same studio might or that same uh cutting engineer might might make the final master lacquer.
00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:35.279
Right.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:24:01.119
But in the early to mid-70s a few engineers uh built custom equipment and built custom relationships with producers and artists and with labels and they were able to prove to enough people that if they cut the record it actually sounded better on the radio and it sold better in the stores and that connection was what made independent mastering happen.
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:20.640
And so uh everyone involved in it at that time that was a little before my day but everyone involved in it at that time wanted to make sure the world knew that this was something cut by an independent mastering house and um stamps you know would generally go overlooked back in the day but today now it actually it has a a real significant meaning.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:26:02.240
Yeah absolutely and again you know the part part of the part of the fabric of of a record you buy um you know I I can just picture my my wife rolling her eyes standing next to me by a creator records as I you know as I look in and try to find out you know who the mastering engineer was and you know become the the geek who knows every stamp oh look it's an SH that must have been Scott you know blah blah blah um but it's uh you know absolutely fascinating um well we leave well you know it's uh if you watch the Antiques Roads show you know it's all about the mark is the maker's mark on that uh piece is it authentic uh maker's mark yeah that's huge uh um well the other thoughts I had with this um well you will lose were there any other markings on the uh you know there's one group of numbers together but was there any other marks around the around the inner circle well yeah let me um because because there's sometimes the pressing plants would put a mark on there and other times you'll get uh some other some other random stuff I can't perfectly decode it for you because I don't have the um I'm not a the keeper of the keys the key wait a second I just found another oh I can't even see it uh sometimes they're really faint they're really it it really is faint but on the opposite side I think I just found the mastering engineer's um imprint JC um wait I gotta let me see if I can actually hold on a second I know it I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm I'm actually using my iPhone to take a closer look at this and putting it into practice so let's see if I can actually figure out what this is.
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:20.799
Okay so I found the I found the chink in the armor here which is that um you know if you put if you turn on the light on the iPhone and then try to look at it through the screen it reflects back at you which you did say it kind of sucks.
00:26:21.440 --> 00:27:04.720
You can catch it in an angle um uh you can direct the light away or just use the the the iPhone light to put a bunch of light on the subject so that you can um get enough of the image I mean it's the stuff is small um um it's tiny and I really can't tell um I will I will um you know because it's it's so incredibly faint it looks like a J B or or a J C or a T B it's so incredibly hard to tell yeah if it's not accompanied with a studio designation that well that may or may or may not be the engineer's mark but it it's it's it it very well could be some of the plants would add a little tiny stamp the specialty records had a little S with a circle around it.
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:20.160
It's the only one I really recall seeing a lot of um and again the listeners should look for this warehouse uh or um list site that is try has tried to catalog all of these different marks and and give you some indication of what it means.
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:25.039
You know it's like researching the the history of of any antique at this point.
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:33.519
It's like well well was this during their um their Vienna years or were they were they already had they already moved their operation to Austria at that point.
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:36.160
I mean not to Austria to Switzerland.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:41.440
You know if um if we're talking about glassware or China or something.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:46.640
Alright so now I've officially given myself eye strain from trying to decipher this thing.
00:27:46.799 --> 00:28:00.720
Now it looks like a fat bee um or anyway you know what I'm gonna do I'll try to I'll take a picture and we can post it and you know crowdsource this maybe maybe a listener will know what the hell I'm looking at because I have no idea.
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:51.839
On a future episode I'm gonna have a uh a a colleague on to talk about a um a disc production rating system that he's created this is his name's Sam he runs a uh blog and a website called vinyl junkies he's very outspoken about uh about his dissatisfaction with the quality of how some records are being produced these days he's actually to be frank um been very outspoken at times um and has turned some people off I think by being so outspoken but uh he's just speaking his mind and he just thinks it it's just wrong for people to be um putting junk out there it's uh he's just um he's gonna I think he's right about that kind of fed he's kind of fed up with it and he's tired of uh tired of it and he's he's taking names and he's gonna you know he's gonna call people out on it.
00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:19.119
But um it's all subjective you know I uh when he's on we'll have him uh describe his rating system but it's all subjective and I was actually happy to hear that because I thought what he was going to do was try to uh analyze the surface noise and analyze the separation analyze the wow and flutter but literally this thing just gets a grade it's like a Miss America pageant this this thing just gets a grade based on what he as an independent judge thinks about it.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:20.319
What does he think about the music?
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:21.680
What does he think about the package?
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:44.960
What does he think about the condition he received it in um and he's got some um some basic criteria like is it is it round does it go around in a circle or is it you know is it flat you know kind of some some some real basics because there have been a number of pretty popular releases of of late that end up in the consumer's hands and they're by by most they're almost effective.
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:51.759
And um just barely passable and so they they take the money and you know keep their unit cost down.
00:29:52.079 --> 00:30:00.559
I you know I really I appreciate somebody who does that if if they do it knowled if if they're knowledgeable and if they do it with integrity, I mean this is why we have critics.
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:12.160
You know somebody it's it's of course it's subjective but it's got to be somebody's job to make this determination at least to a certain degree and say you know don't don't spend your money on this because you're just going to be disappointed.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:31:47.839
Yeah yeah and um you know it's uh it's all kind of cottage industry kind of stuff even the majors are not selling enough copies that they can you know they can uh buy off too many people you know uh for res of reviewers if there's uh you know independence we've we've we'll we'll name we'll name some of those in future episodes as well that uh that do a really good job of um uh helping guide not just taste but you know helping guide people to really quality product because it's in everybody's best interest if those records that were manufactured really well um if they sell well because the good news is that that company's gonna go out and make some more other other titles and and you're you're rewarding the companies that are doing a really nice job and I I highly endorse um uh encourage people to um shop where they um where they've where they've gotten good results whether it's your whether it's your um your independent record store that's given you a advice on a pressing and told you no you're uh if you like this band you're really gonna love this pressing this thing is but it's not just for quality it's for the whole thing it's the package it's the look it's the feel it's how it's presented it's the songs it's the production it's the cutting it's the you know the plating you know the ones that that turn out that great yeah you know you really want everyone to know about that and and uh and give them a shot give it give it a listen absolutely absolutely and when you do go to those stores dear listeners bring um you know bring a magnifying glass or a pair of reading glasses and a bottle of Advil and um take your time and uh beware of eye strain.
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:53.680
Yeah you used record buying is is really a even another art.
00:31:53.920 --> 00:32:51.279
It was interesting at the Making Violent conference we were talking about the numbers of record sales and everybody on the panel we're talking about how many records are sold and yeah yeah yeah and it's all been good and numbers are going up but each one of them said you know but we're not counting used record sales at all they're not showing up anywhere so this the resale of of records may actually be doubling the gross receipts from vinyl because these things do resell and trade hands change hands and people recycle their collection one person you know taste change and they no longer listen to a record so it's uh taken back to a store and exchanged for credit on a on a different record on a different used record and it's kind of fun um it's sometimes a little hard to part with something but you know if it's one of those things that you know you're always going to enjoy well you keep that but the other stuff that you haven't played in in years and you don't really get a whole lot of enjoyment out of go go trade it for something you'd never heard before and you might find something pretty cool.
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:59.119
And uh and talking about buying uh you know secondhand records and and trading collecting that's something that we have slated for future episodes.
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:03.680
So we're gonna spend a little bit more time on that and you know pick Scott's brain.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:05.279
There you go.
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:49.599
But I want to point out that you know for listeners who um are trying to decide whether or not to you know uh reach out through Twitter or Instagram or you know on the website at masterdis.com and ask a question um let me point out that this this episode is is uh proof positive that you can get your question answered a and that b I will steal it and make it about me I would have no other way well thank you so um so if you're out there and you're listening you have a question uh or if there's something we didn't cover um today and you want to know um hit us up on uh social media hit up uh Scott at masterdisc.com and um ask your question and uh we'll we'll put it in a in a future episode.
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:50.799
Yeah that's great.
00:33:50.960 --> 00:34:26.239
Um sorry that the uh the greeting is uh weeks late we we make these things in advance and then queue them up for uh for at least on the podcast so uh just uh recall how how your Thanksgiving meal was and encouraging you to have a belated happy Thanksgiving uh happy turkey day all right then uh this has been another fine episode of making vinyl at master disc with I just I I got a lift there all of a sudden I like it keep it in this was making vinyl at Master Disc with Scott Hall and KJ of the Odyssey thanks for listening.
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:27.440
Bye folks
00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:28.640
Hi, and welcome to another episode of Making Vinyl at MasterDisc.
00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:40.000
I'm Scott Hall, the owner and chief engineer of MasterDisc, and I'm here today with my colleague, friend, bass player, and songwriter, extraordinaire KJ of the Odyssey.
00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:41.119
Hello, hello.
00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:50.000
Hey man, it's been a been a little while since we talked, and um uh everyone's in the uh pre-holiday preparation mode right now.
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:54.240
We're um you know, we're actually taping this the day before Thanksgiving.
00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:56.079
So belated, happy Thanksgiving to everyone.
00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:58.479
Um I almost didn't show up today.
00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:01.679
Uh my brain, my brain was been on vacation since Monday.
00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:02.159
I don't know.
00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:05.760
You know, it's it's not enough that it's a short a three-day week.
00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:08.239
I I I have to switch off Monday morning.
00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:09.599
I I can't even think straight.
00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:10.640
I don't know what my problem is.
00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:12.799
Phone the whole weekend, I see.
00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:13.120
Okay.
00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:15.120
Well, yeah, what there is up it.
00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:28.560
I uh yeah, I walked into the deli this morning and and and um the uh woman who runs our deli in our building um gets so happy when it's Friday, you know, and um I kind of share that elation with her.
00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:34.319
And I said so um and I said this morning, so when is a Wednesday also a Friday?
00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:36.079
And yes indeed.
00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:37.120
Yes indeed.
00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:43.200
And I'm very proud of I'm very proud of us Americans for inventing a four-day week, uh four-day weekend.
00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:44.159
Yeah, yeah.
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We do about we do it best.
00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:50.719
Except we haven't figured out how to take a whole month off like the Europeans do.
00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:54.719
Well, rest assured, I'm working on that every single day.
00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:56.799
And as soon as I have it figured out, I will let you know.
00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:57.840
Please, please.
00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:00.640
It has something to do with becoming independently wealthy.
00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:01.840
Damn it.
00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:04.239
It's always, always about the money.
00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:06.319
It is, it is.
00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:11.280
But there is always the option of not knocking over a liquor store, and I feel like you know we can fall back on that if necessary.
00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:18.400
Yeah, unfortunately, my close fans know that when I say I I've got to go ahead and bank, that they know I'm I am kidding.
00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:21.280
But one day you might not be.
00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:22.240
I hope.
00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:25.039
Um, yeah, uh that's possible.
00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:26.719
The way things are going.
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:28.639
So let's talk about vinyl, shall we?
00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:29.599
Well, that's what we're here to do.
00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:30.479
That's what we're here to do.
00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:31.439
That's what we're here to do.
00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:32.080
All right.
00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:46.080
So uh a listener wrote in with a question um uh about original pressings, and that led me to my own um anecdote about original pressings, which of course will lead me to a question uh for you.
00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:53.680
So um the so the the the listener's question notwithstanding, let me bitch for a second.
00:02:53.840 --> 00:03:02.319
But I bought an original pressing of Pat Matheny's Bright Size Life with um, you know, with Jocko Pastorius on bass, my one of my favorite bass players of all time.
00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:05.280
And I was very, very excited about this thing.
00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:12.400
And it arrived, and um, it looked like an original pressing um in that it it looked old.
00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:18.560
Um and it was it's flimsy and it's a little scratchy, and I noticed the grooves aren't very deep.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:24.080
And all in all, I gotta say, it's really not that fantastic of a listening experience.
00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:29.520
Um so did I just um did I just blow a bunch of cash for nothing?
00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:31.280
I mean, i is that the way this always is?
00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:33.280
How where do you stand on original pressings?
00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:34.159
That's my question.
00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:37.759
Oh boy, big uh big questi big question.
00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:50.240
Um I um I kind of wish it was easy to um to just to just say um that uh original pressings are always great and remastered you know always um you know can't hold a candle to them.
00:03:50.319 --> 00:04:07.840
But uh unfortunately, uh as it would always be in this world where uh you know in the real world um everything depends and you actually have to you have to do um do the diligence and uh take some chances uh to find the you know what is it uh you gotta break a lot of eggs to make an omelet.
00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:10.719
You gotta open a bunch of bunch of lots of find a prince.
00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:11.520
Yes, absolutely.
00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:27.120
Cliche cliche um in in the aggregate in general, and original pressing that's you know hasn't been abused should display for you, should play for you what the original producer really intended.
00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:31.439
I mean it's it should hold true to the original to the original m uh master.
00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:37.040
But original pressing doesn't always mean initial or first run initial pressing.
00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:46.800
We often talk about um I have talked about the MasterDisc stamp that we put in the dead wax uh on on anything that was cut here at MasterDisc.
00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:54.560
So let me give you a uh a little bit of history, a little history lesson of the way records were made, you know, in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.
00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:56.959
Early 90s, 70s and 80s mostly.
00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:01.279
Um okay, major label project.
00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:08.000
Uh this was probably uh um this was this was probably an ECM um project for Pat Matheny.
00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:09.279
I think so, yeah.
00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:10.160
That would make sense.
00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:17.040
So it's you know, small, small major, you know, or maybe large major depending on what type type of music you're looking at.
00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:33.279
The the artist and the producer control the creative project um and would usually bring the masters to the mastering studio and oftentimes uh attend the mastering session, making sure that that it's sonically exactly the way they wanted it.
00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:41.279
And at the end of that mastering session, reference disks would be cut, and then subsequently within the next few days, we'd get an approval from them.
00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:52.079
And once approved, the label would order a set of master lacquers from us and tell us where to send them or which pressing plant they were gonna be processed at.
00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:59.519
And in many cases, we would at that point be making two copies or even three copies of the masters and sending them to different plants.
00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:09.519
Um many of the labels that were gonna ship, if they were gonna ship more than, you know, 10,000, 20,000 records, they would split the printing up into multiple places.
00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:18.639
And if they were going to service the whole US, then they would usually have a plant on the East Coast and another plant on the West Coast, so that shipping costs uh would be mitigated or be limited.
00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:25.439
But the idea there was that each one of those three masters cut um should be identical.
00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:35.279
They were made from the original master tape, they all have their master to stamp on them, and they would all have the more or less the same scribe number, the same master number in the dead wax.
00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:37.680
But there will usually be some variations.
00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:45.199
Um, like for Sony or CBS records, um, there would be an AL for the A-side and a B L for the B side.
00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:47.519
That's an A L P and a B L P.
00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:50.480
Um, but then there would be usually a numeral after that.
00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:53.120
So A L1, A L2, A L3.
00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:58.639
Those were the iterations of how many different times that that particular A-side was cut.
00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:15.360
Um you might also see after the scribe number the words R-E or R E two or R E three, those were revised versions that were made either because the parts were damaged in the plant or because there was some technical problem that caused that particular one to be uh defective.
00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:23.920
Uh so there's some clues that you can get from the scribe numbers, but not everybody held to the same, not only standards, but the same procedure.
00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:43.680
But if you've got a disc that's got a mark on it that indicates that it was uh cut at a particular um mastering studio like Sterling or Master Disc or um Bernie Grudman or Frankfurt Wayne or um there's a number of places in Nashville that were cutting original masters like um Georgetown Masters, etc.
00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:55.759
Um and the same thing goes with England and other countries where where you have a a named person that cut that record, that's what I would call an original first pressing.
00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:05.040
Even though there's multiples of them, uh they're not all first pressings, they were original creations from the mastering studio.
00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:08.720
So that's that's kind of your best product.
00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:21.519
And it's my understanding, my observation that the you know the discs that were cut at MasterDisc that have the Master Disc stamp actually sell for higher prices um on the resale in the resale market uh because of that.
00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.720
Well, rest assured, I paid a I paid a handful for this.
00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:29.120
So what is the um what is the inscription look like on your disc?
00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:30.720
What does it what does it say on the inside?
00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:32.399
That's a very good question.
00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:33.360
I have no idea.
00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:37.679
Um I can't Well, I'll why don't why don't I continue the story and I'll let you look at it.
00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:38.399
Okay.
00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:39.840
So keep talking.
00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:58.639
The next step is um after the initial pressing is uh has gone and the the the label notices that there's you know good sales happening, they would often order a quarter inch analog tape copy from Mastering from us, um, and it would get put in their vault.
00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:16.799
Now um on subsequent recuts, after the first um you know, 20, 30, 40,000 records had been manufactured, maybe even the first hundred thousand, depending on the artist, the labels production par department, some you know, series months or even years later, decides, well, we need to make more records.
00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.480
We're we're low on stock and we we think this record is going to keep selling.
00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:46.240
So they go into the vault, they find that quarter-inch tape copy, and they send it to usually a different cutting studio, oftentimes their own in-house studio, and that engineer then makes a cut master and puts a scribe number on it that's similar to the series that was originally created, but now this disc is done not under the confines of the producer and the original artist, but is done as a manufactured product.
00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:50.720
It's completely legit, it's completely you know um approved, you know.
00:09:50.960 --> 00:10:00.960
This is a standard standard process, but this the subsequent pressings are made from a tape copy of the of the original, not from the original.
00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.279
And that in itself is only a minor problem.
00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:19.759
Um you can notice the difference if it was a Steeley Dan record or if it was a Pat Methaney record, where you know um it's it's all about the the you know uh uh engineer performance prowess and engineering skill, and it's got you know, it's a sonic sculpture.
00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:23.440
Yeah, you can probably notice you probably would notice the degradation.
00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:36.639
But the other thing that happens is we it doesn't have the oversight of the master cutting engineer, and it doesn't have the the quality control that they put into the that first pressing, that first release.
00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:58.240
Um so what typically happens, um that um in-house uh label cutting studio, uh cutting engineer sends that part, that new parts out to the plant, and the plant makes a whole bunch of records, and somebody at the label's office, you know, likes to look at the jacket, says, yep, looks like a record, open it up and said, Yeah, it looks like a record.
00:10:58.320 --> 00:10:59.840
They drop the needle on the first band.
00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:04.399
It's like, eh, it's a little noisy, but eh, it's it's you know, this thing's selling like hotcakes.
00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:06.559
It's it's it's it's fine.
00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:12.879
Um, and you're in most cases, the producer and artist don't have any input on onto that, on that.
00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:21.200
But subsequent productions, once the artist is or the producer is signed off um on the production run, it's totally at the discretion of the label then.
00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:23.039
Now, there are labels that don't do that.
00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:29.600
There are um boutique labels like Jeski or um um Mofi, Mobile Fidelity, and things like that.
00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:32.879
Those there are boutique labels that absolutely don't do that.
00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:46.000
Every one of their releases is a first first run original copy, and you can really have high integrity all the way through the production process, and um because their their name stands for high fidelity, high high quality.
00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:51.679
Um the mass-produced labels, not so much, some some much better than others.
00:11:51.919 --> 00:12:04.320
You know, a very popular European uh classical label, Deutsche Grammophone, um, you know, was pretty well known for, and in my observation, was really had the quality control under under uh control.
00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:10.399
Um they those their releases always sounded good and they they always sounded quite consistent.
00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:15.279
They use some of the best processes and they use really good product and you know raw materials.
00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:16.320
But I digress.
00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:34.480
What's so what's happened with that second pressing is they look just exactly like the original pressings, but it's not the same cut and it's not done on the same blade, and it's not really, you know, if you put it right up against that original pressing, it might be very, very obvious that it was um yeah inferior.
00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:38.799
The label though tended to if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:45.840
You know, they um they if they weren't getting returns, and if the record kept selling, then then it was okay as far as they were concerned.
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:48.799
I'm throwing everybody under the bus, and I don't mean to do that.
00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:50.720
They're definitely screw them.
00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:51.759
Who needs them?
00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:53.919
So let me tell you what this thing.
00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.240
So I'm looking at the thing printed in the dead wax, right?
00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:58.960
That's where you're uh Yeah, there'll be numbers and some symbols.
00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:08.159
Okay, so um from what I can see here, it says ECM-1-1073B1.
00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:13.759
And then there's a little circle sort of icon thing that I can't quite make out, and then a number.
00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:15.440
Is that circle and s?
00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:17.039
Is there an S inside that circle?
00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:18.559
Maybe that would be special.
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:20.080
Specialty records.
00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:23.840
It was all the only one that I happen to know full firsthand.
00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:28.480
Um yeah, back in the day they didn't tell us much about where they were pressed and stuff.
00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:49.360
They did want to really keep most of the stuff kind of secret as an aside, um, of all of the any releases that I'm involved in, I I I highly advocate putting the actual cutting facility, the pressing facility, the plating facility, and and who did the artwork, you know, on the outside of the record so that the the buyer can actually see it before they make their purchase.
00:13:49.600 --> 00:14:01.600
Um my feeling there is if you credit uh all of the people that made that record, I think it communicates to the world that we're proud of the way it sounds and the proud of the way it looks.
00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:05.919
And we put our name on it and we stand for this level of quality.
00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:12.000
And um if it's not there, then I think um there's some suspicion about how it was produced.
00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:17.440
You know, there's l lots and lots of vinyl being made these again these days, but um it's not all the same.
00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:18.480
No, indeed.
00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:21.840
Um So did that stuff on the on that I read you did that mean anything to it?
00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:22.879
Well it's at ECM.
00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:23.759
I I guess right.
00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:29.679
It's a ECM um label, as that would have been their their their uh matrix code.
00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:41.919
And um A1 and B1 uh A1 B1 um probably means it was it was likely early on in the production, but this can be a little mistake it can be a little um deceiving.
00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:42.639
Thank you.
00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.039
Um I'm here for you.
00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:50.159
Uh because this what this also could have been a licensee copy.
00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:58.960
Um uh it it it's it doesn't sound like it was a European import, but um European uh licensed copies were made um in the same way.
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:05.120
Tape copies were sent overseas and somebody else cut it and a whole nother realm of records were made.
00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:08.320
Some every once in a while, though, a funny thing happens.
00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:21.679
If a US label um does kind of a mediocre job of pressing a record, but then sends a copy of the master tape out to Europe and they do a really nice job of pressing it, sometimes the imports will actually sound better.
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:23.759
Um, even though they're made from a copy.
00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:27.360
Um, the actual pressing quality is will uh is higher.
00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:32.960
It doesn't always happen that way, but that's it's an interesting caveat that it's not always worse because it's a copy.
00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:41.200
It just really has to do with how much time and effort and how much care goes into the making of it, either in the first pass or the subsequent passes.
00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:28.879
I know my friend Otto has um, you know, who's just a complete audiophile, vinyl head has no shortage of you know, Japanese imports and uh uh European imports.
00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:37.200
And so my you know, my next question was going to be, you know, regardless of its originality, is it you know, is it is the is it really all it's cracked up to be?
00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:41.840
Are you you know, I know you're you're so you're uh almost always paying a little bit more for it.
00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:48.320
Um but your your explanation is maybe it's actually worth it because it's possible they did a better job with the actual production, right?
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:55.679
Yeah, it's my first statement on that is um working from the original master is always better than working from a copy.
00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:06.319
But um uh there's a lot of other processes beyond that that have a profound impact on the uh ultimately on the quality.
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:19.519
Within the you know, the pro mastering community, the the the names of the studios that I mentioned earlier, you know, we take great pride in in doing the very highest quality that we possibly can uh in all of our cuts.
00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:23.200
And so, um, like I said, our names on it, and so we stand up for that.
00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:30.799
Most of the imports and almost all of the second and third pressings, there's no initials or identification mark on them who created it.
00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:32.960
So it's really hard to know.
00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:37.839
And of course, it's not printed on the jacket anywhere, so you have no idea until you've opened it.
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:41.440
Um there's a uh company, the name escapes me at the moment.
00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:44.240
Maybe if I think of it, I'll put it in the in the uh comments.
00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:56.160
But um they uh had some press uh about two years ago where they they they were going around and listening to individual they were buying up lots of copies of vinyl, which hadn't really gotten super expensive yet.
00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:10.240
They were going through and cataloging, um, you know, they'd have multiple copies of the same title, and they would um listen creatively, but also listen technically and monitor technically what was going on with that record, and they would give it a score.
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:29.119
They would use that score to derive a list of what they called hot stampers, where where a particular run cut by a particular person on a particular day, that particular engraving was really good and was premium, and then they would sell those copies for exceptional large amounts of money.
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:43.599
Um for the die-hard, you know, uh Coltrane or Davis fans or the um uh Sinatra or Springsteen fan that that wanted the ultimate copy of um Darkness uh on the edge of town.
00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:47.759
Um, because if you compare it all the different uh we call these matrix numbers.
00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:56.000
If you if you compare all the the different uh variations of matrix numbers, you could really find um one batch that's probably better.
00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:01.039
That's that that just kind of was even if it was just magic, it's it's gonna be better.
00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:05.279
And I know I'm doing a lot of talking, but there's also another issue.
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:07.119
Um stampers wear out.
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:18.000
You can have two identical engravings, one that was done in the first hundred copies of that record, and one that was in the you know, after the presses run a thousand copies or more.
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:25.519
And um, you will notice a difference in the quality of the record just based on how many records that stamper has made.
00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:26.319
Huh.
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:39.519
You know, what what's fascinating about this to me is uh that the you know these become sort of living, breathing um, you know, there's so much natural fundamental um variation, you know, across these things.
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:46.880
And I never I never knew any of the the stuff that you just said about the you know the stamper wearing out and the different versions of it and and the matrix numbers.
00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:50.240
And it just it at first blush I think, geez, that's annoying.
00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:55.440
Like, you know, how am I gonna, you know, who who the hell is the time to go and look for for the perfect copy?
00:19:55.680 --> 00:20:09.200
But in fact, it it adds just such a a wonderful level of depth to um to music and to and to collecting, you know, something that that an artist puts out that it's actually really I I find it very cool.
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:29.680
Well, it's it makes it really um payoff, makes it really uh worth it when you find that that amazing copy, um, and as it is somewhat of a needle on a haystack, and it's it keeps all of us thumbing through used record bins, kind of hoping to find you know something that communicates to us and is a you know a um a a well-preserved copy.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:32.640
Well, I've been done my fair share of crate digging.
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:37.759
I don't think I ever knew quite uh I I never knew the extent of what it was possible to look for in there.
00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:41.759
And now I'm gonna be, God, now I'm gonna spend all this time staring at matrix numbers.
00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:42.720
Thanks a lot.
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:48.720
Well, um I'm old enough that I literally need to carry some magnification along with me or a really good light.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:58.799
Uh I would I would stick a little pen light in your pocket because you know, when it you know, like a groovy record store, you're you're barely gonna be able to even see the the the writing, let alone uh identify what it is.
00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:01.119
But I guess well I think that's what the iPhone's for.
00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:02.240
Yeah, well, there you go.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:06.000
And it's also really hard to photograph uh because the records are so reflective.
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:14.319
You try to photograph the matrix number and it's um it's it's almost always um maybe the new phone where maybe the new wide angle phone would capture that better.
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:19.920
But I always have trouble um making a photograph of the um uh of the inscription.
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.920
Um so there's where's that website?
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:48.160
Um I haven't I haven't uh come across this in a while, but there is a um if you if you look up up under um Dead Wax Um scribe numbers or matrix numbers, um pretty near the top of that list you're gonna find a site that has catalogued all the different cutting engineers' marks um and has attempted to correlate that to a particular engineer in a particular time period.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:57.680
Um my mark is a so it's sort of interconnected S and an H, um where the the the line for the H kind of goes almost goes through the S.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:01.279
It's when I do it right, it almost looks like dollar sign H.
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:03.359
Okay, so that that's my mark.
00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:07.839
And um and it's usually just to the right of the of the Master Disc stamp.
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:13.119
So Bob Ludwig uh had his mark that was an R and an L for Robert Ludwig.
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:15.519
Andy Vandt was another colored Master Disc.
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:22.079
He had an interlocking A V D and the V kind of looked like a W.
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:30.559
Anyway, so we um you know it's not that different from a a cattle brand um back in the in the old West days.
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:34.559
But um that mark um tells a little bit of the story.
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:42.799
Tell us a little bit about the equipment that was used if you know the history of that person uh tells a little story about the integrity of that product.
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:52.640
And um you you'll find some engineers that um just consistently get you know great sounding cuts out of them and and others maybe less consistent.
00:22:52.799 --> 00:23:34.799
Yeah uh it's um but it's uh it's a another piece of the puzzle the um the stamp is huge the the mastering studio stamp um we've talked about independent mastering before but remember the um prior to the mid-70s mastering was all done in the label's own inside um operations and uh in other words there was there was virtually no independent mastering the record label took the recording tape from the down the hall brought it down to a cutting room and they made a lacquer um so that the artist could take their their mix home for the day and and listen to it and then later that same studio might or that same uh cutting engineer might might make the final master lacquer.
00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:35.279
Right.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:24:01.119
But in the early to mid-70s a few engineers uh built custom equipment and built custom relationships with producers and artists and with labels and they were able to prove to enough people that if they cut the record it actually sounded better on the radio and it sold better in the stores and that connection was what made independent mastering happen.
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:20.640
And so uh everyone involved in it at that time that was a little before my day but everyone involved in it at that time wanted to make sure the world knew that this was something cut by an independent mastering house and um stamps you know would generally go overlooked back in the day but today now it actually it has a a real significant meaning.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:26:02.240
Yeah absolutely and again you know the part part of the part of the fabric of of a record you buy um you know I I can just picture my my wife rolling her eyes standing next to me by a creator records as I you know as I look in and try to find out you know who the mastering engineer was and you know become the the geek who knows every stamp oh look it's an SH that must have been Scott you know blah blah blah um but it's uh you know absolutely fascinating um well we leave well you know it's uh if you watch the Antiques Roads show you know it's all about the mark is the maker's mark on that uh piece is it authentic uh maker's mark yeah that's huge uh um well the other thoughts I had with this um well you will lose were there any other markings on the uh you know there's one group of numbers together but was there any other marks around the around the inner circle well yeah let me um because because there's sometimes the pressing plants would put a mark on there and other times you'll get uh some other some other random stuff I can't perfectly decode it for you because I don't have the um I'm not a the keeper of the keys the key wait a second I just found another oh I can't even see it uh sometimes they're really faint they're really it it really is faint but on the opposite side I think I just found the mastering engineer's um imprint JC um wait I gotta let me see if I can actually hold on a second I know it I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm I'm actually using my iPhone to take a closer look at this and putting it into practice so let's see if I can actually figure out what this is.
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:20.799
Okay so I found the I found the chink in the armor here which is that um you know if you put if you turn on the light on the iPhone and then try to look at it through the screen it reflects back at you which you did say it kind of sucks.
00:26:21.440 --> 00:27:04.720
You can catch it in an angle um uh you can direct the light away or just use the the the iPhone light to put a bunch of light on the subject so that you can um get enough of the image I mean it's the stuff is small um um it's tiny and I really can't tell um I will I will um you know because it's it's so incredibly faint it looks like a J B or or a J C or a T B it's so incredibly hard to tell yeah if it's not accompanied with a studio designation that well that may or may or may not be the engineer's mark but it it's it's it it very well could be some of the plants would add a little tiny stamp the specialty records had a little S with a circle around it.
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:20.160
It's the only one I really recall seeing a lot of um and again the listeners should look for this warehouse uh or um list site that is try has tried to catalog all of these different marks and and give you some indication of what it means.
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:25.039
You know it's like researching the the history of of any antique at this point.
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:33.519
It's like well well was this during their um their Vienna years or were they were they already had they already moved their operation to Austria at that point.
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:36.160
I mean not to Austria to Switzerland.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:41.440
You know if um if we're talking about glassware or China or something.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:46.640
Alright so now I've officially given myself eye strain from trying to decipher this thing.
00:27:46.799 --> 00:28:00.720
Now it looks like a fat bee um or anyway you know what I'm gonna do I'll try to I'll take a picture and we can post it and you know crowdsource this maybe maybe a listener will know what the hell I'm looking at because I have no idea.
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:51.839
On a future episode I'm gonna have a uh a a colleague on to talk about a um a disc production rating system that he's created this is his name's Sam he runs a uh blog and a website called vinyl junkies he's very outspoken about uh about his dissatisfaction with the quality of how some records are being produced these days he's actually to be frank um been very outspoken at times um and has turned some people off I think by being so outspoken but uh he's just speaking his mind and he just thinks it it's just wrong for people to be um putting junk out there it's uh he's just um he's gonna I think he's right about that kind of fed he's kind of fed up with it and he's tired of uh tired of it and he's he's taking names and he's gonna you know he's gonna call people out on it.
00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:19.119
But um it's all subjective you know I uh when he's on we'll have him uh describe his rating system but it's all subjective and I was actually happy to hear that because I thought what he was going to do was try to uh analyze the surface noise and analyze the separation analyze the wow and flutter but literally this thing just gets a grade it's like a Miss America pageant this this thing just gets a grade based on what he as an independent judge thinks about it.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:20.319
What does he think about the music?
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:21.680
What does he think about the package?
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:44.960
What does he think about the condition he received it in um and he's got some um some basic criteria like is it is it round does it go around in a circle or is it you know is it flat you know kind of some some some real basics because there have been a number of pretty popular releases of of late that end up in the consumer's hands and they're by by most they're almost effective.
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:51.759
And um just barely passable and so they they take the money and you know keep their unit cost down.
00:29:52.079 --> 00:30:00.559
I you know I really I appreciate somebody who does that if if they do it knowled if if they're knowledgeable and if they do it with integrity, I mean this is why we have critics.
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:12.160
You know somebody it's it's of course it's subjective but it's got to be somebody's job to make this determination at least to a certain degree and say you know don't don't spend your money on this because you're just going to be disappointed.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:31:47.839
Yeah yeah and um you know it's uh it's all kind of cottage industry kind of stuff even the majors are not selling enough copies that they can you know they can uh buy off too many people you know uh for res of reviewers if there's uh you know independence we've we've we'll we'll name we'll name some of those in future episodes as well that uh that do a really good job of um uh helping guide not just taste but you know helping guide people to really quality product because it's in everybody's best interest if those records that were manufactured really well um if they sell well because the good news is that that company's gonna go out and make some more other other titles and and you're you're rewarding the companies that are doing a really nice job and I I highly endorse um uh encourage people to um shop where they um where they've where they've gotten good results whether it's your whether it's your um your independent record store that's given you a advice on a pressing and told you no you're uh if you like this band you're really gonna love this pressing this thing is but it's not just for quality it's for the whole thing it's the package it's the look it's the feel it's how it's presented it's the songs it's the production it's the cutting it's the you know the plating you know the ones that that turn out that great yeah you know you really want everyone to know about that and and uh and give them a shot give it give it a listen absolutely absolutely and when you do go to those stores dear listeners bring um you know bring a magnifying glass or a pair of reading glasses and a bottle of Advil and um take your time and uh beware of eye strain.
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:53.680
Yeah you used record buying is is really a even another art.
00:31:53.920 --> 00:32:51.279
It was interesting at the Making Violent conference we were talking about the numbers of record sales and everybody on the panel we're talking about how many records are sold and yeah yeah yeah and it's all been good and numbers are going up but each one of them said you know but we're not counting used record sales at all they're not showing up anywhere so this the resale of of records may actually be doubling the gross receipts from vinyl because these things do resell and trade hands change hands and people recycle their collection one person you know taste change and they no longer listen to a record so it's uh taken back to a store and exchanged for credit on a on a different record on a different used record and it's kind of fun um it's sometimes a little hard to part with something but you know if it's one of those things that you know you're always going to enjoy well you keep that but the other stuff that you haven't played in in years and you don't really get a whole lot of enjoyment out of go go trade it for something you'd never heard before and you might find something pretty cool.
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:59.119
And uh and talking about buying uh you know secondhand records and and trading collecting that's something that we have slated for future episodes.
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:03.680
So we're gonna spend a little bit more time on that and you know pick Scott's brain.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:05.279
There you go.
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:49.599
But I want to point out that you know for listeners who um are trying to decide whether or not to you know uh reach out through Twitter or Instagram or you know on the website at masterdis.com and ask a question um let me point out that this this episode is is uh proof positive that you can get your question answered a and that b I will steal it and make it about me I would have no other way well thank you so um so if you're out there and you're listening you have a question uh or if there's something we didn't cover um today and you want to know um hit us up on uh social media hit up uh Scott at masterdisc.com and um ask your question and uh we'll we'll put it in a in a future episode.
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:50.799
Yeah that's great.
00:33:50.960 --> 00:34:26.239
Um sorry that the uh the greeting is uh weeks late we we make these things in advance and then queue them up for uh for at least on the podcast so uh just uh recall how how your Thanksgiving meal was and encouraging you to have a belated happy Thanksgiving uh happy turkey day all right then uh this has been another fine episode of making vinyl at master disc with I just I I got a lift there all of a sudden I like it keep it in this was making vinyl at Master Disc with Scott Hall and KJ of the Odyssey thanks for listening.
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:27.440
Bye folks
