Catalyst Collab: George Schuler | Make Water Work 041

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Language: en
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I'm Isaac with 120 Water
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>> and I'm Chelsea with Rogue Water and
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we're excited to welcome you to the Make
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Water Work and Catalyst Collab.
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Well, hi everyone. I'm Isaac from 120
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water and welcome to the make water work
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catalyst collab. This is a podcast
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series leading up to the catalyst not
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conference. It's an experience. They
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don't have speakers. They have guides.
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Um but we have the privilege of
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interviewing one of those guides who
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will be um really walking through what
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it means to have impactful
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communication. And um I'm excited to
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have this conversation. It's with George
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Schuler who is the co-founder of
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Connecting for Change. He's a system
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strategist and network analyst who has
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spent nearly three decades working at
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the intersection of water conservation,
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philanthropy, and global institutions.
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So, welcome, George, to the podcast.
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>> Thanks. Great to be here.
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>> Yeah. I um when I was talking to Chelsea
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about um about having this podcast
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series, um she brought up your name
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right away. She's like, "I'm really
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excited to introduce you to George um
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and what he's going to be bringing to
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this year's catalyst." And so, um I'm
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excited to have this conversation. I
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love starting every conversation that we
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have on this podcast with the um with
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the question, "How did water find you?"
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So, George, how did water find you?
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You know, it's kind of funny because the
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water community is is the only one that
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has that kind that that very
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um familyoriented question about like
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how did this how did this come into your
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life? And um I I tell that to other
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groups that are not from the water
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sector and they they all look at me like
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I'm a little bit um off. But I think
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that for me it was water that found me.
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I didn't necessarily find water. I was
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um I was an environmental science major
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coming out of graduate school and
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looking I knew the things that I wanted
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to work on. I wanted to be close to
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nature. I wanted to be um in the context
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of working with people in communities,
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having grown up in uh rural Ohio on a
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farm. And um my first job was working in
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a river basin in a small really rural
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type area with the river just feets feet
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away from my office. And I I had all the
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tools. I had studied water and rivers in
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college and in grad school. It was kind
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of it was a it was a hidden thing that
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was easy for me to understand and I had
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I had a lot of experience with it. Um
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and so all of a sudden I found myself
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being a water person and it wasn't like
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a life's ambition.
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>> Yeah.
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>> But it just it found me and then said
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hey hey this is a good space for you.
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And the people I think that that subtext
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also was the people both professional
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and the way that citizens oriented
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themselves to water in general in the
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places that I worked
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>> um really kind of cemented that
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relationship for me and said, "Okay,
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you're one of us. This is your tribe."
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>> Yeah. Yeah. That that's phenomenal. And
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take us a little bit from um tell us a
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little bit about your early work leading
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up to um creating Connecting for Change.
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Uh so I had a really I was with the
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Nature Conservancy for 28 years and I
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had a really interesting career and I
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started I was hired as the program
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director for a watershed initiative. One
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of the early ones in the nature
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conservancy where it was beginning to
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shift from rare species and nature
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preserves to kind of landscapes
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waterheds and I was one of the early
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water hires. There was they in fact it
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was probably the first wave of water
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hires in the conservancy
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>> and it meant that I had to do everything
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from community organizing to developing
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uh monitoring plans and leading science
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crews to writing grants to managing the
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preserve just because my office was
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there. And so it was this microcosm of
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all the skills you'd need in
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conservation including being a
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freshwater biologist. And that grew from
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from doing some land acquisitions to and
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doing some really basic water quality
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monitoring to running a really large
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basin monitoring program with a federal
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partner to the conservy's first dam
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removal and actually the first dam
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removal in New York State for
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environmental reasons. Large policy
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changes around water supply in um in New
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York City and in the Delaware River
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Basin.
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it and it was this progression of I
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would always run I would build kind of
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an understanding of the problem I had to
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solve. I would work on it work on it. I
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would find connections to other teams
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and other places either that could help
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me like my federal my USGS partners
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could help me do something or it might
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have been somebody in another country in
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another state that was doing something
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and my brain could piece together, hey,
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I can learn something from this and this
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will help. And so I started to build
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both this relational network, but also
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that let me travel to other countries
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and coach other teams or be part of
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other planning um teams for water
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resource projects in the Caribbean or in
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China. And so my my kind of my
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experience around water and kind of
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applying how I understood water grew not
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only in the water perspective but also
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in um just in conservation putting
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trying other models for things.
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>> And I think the through thread was in
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the early days I wanted to be seen as a
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scientist and have more data and better
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models so that people could they could
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see the truth.
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>> Yeah. And if they saw the truth, they
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would do better. They would make better
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decisions. And then I realized that's
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ridiculous. That doesn't happen that
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way. What what And it was a there was a
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there was a real profound moment where
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we had been working on environmental
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flows. We were trying to build tools so
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that New York State could make water
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management decisions better. And we were
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grounding it in the best science
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available that we could put together.
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>> Yeah. And uh uh there came a moment
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where I think it was the state of
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Michigan created a new permitting
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framework around water. And what I what
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we all realized my little team was
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>> it was grounded in science but really
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that it was bounded by the decisions of
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what did people want their rivers and
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lakes and streams to look like in the
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future.
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>> That was kind of the big thing. And that
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was the shift I think for me in some
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real foundational ways from
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data is the truth to
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people are the are kind of the firmament
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that that sits in. And getting people to
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move in the right direction and be
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connected in the right ways to make
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active decisions about what they want
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the future to be like was a shift. And
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so the last decade or so at the Nature
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Conservancy really was about in a very
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active sense because we had an
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initiative around this um establishing
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new types of partners and building new
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sorts of tools and approaches for people
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to for there to be stakeholder
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engagement or for people to work
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together. And so that meant things like
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um we built a a collective leadership
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training program that was kind of open
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source. You could use it for any social
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or environmental issue. But but the the
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trick was that for the water version, we
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had people bring their knowledge of
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water. What we conveyed to them was how
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do you work together? What does
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leadership look like in kind of a
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distributed leadership
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>> avenue? Um, we built uh board games. We
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said, you know, there's enough uh
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consultants and people who come into
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meetings using stickies to try to get
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people to on the same page. What if we
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played games? And so we built an actual
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board game and used it both for training
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in collaboration, but also to begin
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those difficult conversations in
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communities. And um and then we also uh
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we had built some tools that were for
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the state and for stakeholders who were
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applying for permits around water. And
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we found that
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ordinary lay people in communities were
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really clamoring for them.
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>> Yeah.
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>> And we weren't but they had things like
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uh flow duration curves. They had like
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hydraologist
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you know uh schematics and graphics and
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and terminology in them. And we realized
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that there's a mismatch here about who
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wants to use this or where's the biggest
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demand and then what language does it
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use to convey information about water
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and that solving that problem took us
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down this avenue of uh we partnered with
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Unity Technologies like one of the the
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big game engines. So there's there's for
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kids play Fortnite. Yeah.
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>> So, Epic, Epic has their Unreal Engine,
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which is one of the big game engines.
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Unity is the other end of the barbell.
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And so, we just reached out to them and
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said, "We'd like to try this thing, and
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we want to make it like uh
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>> Clash of Clans or something. It's very
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intuitive to see the landscape." And so
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we built this we built this thing where
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you could instead of worrying about data
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and metrics and milligrams per liter. It
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was really about seeing it very
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intuitively and understanding, oh
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there's a problem. This is where the
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problem is coming from and these are the
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people I need to connect with to begin
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ideating around a solution or at least
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some shared understanding. And so when I
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left the conservancy, we had all these
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we had grown into all these experiences
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that were more peoplebased
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and and the fundamental underlying thing
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that was wow it takes a lot of time to
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kind of organically find the right
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partners for things, the right
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collaborators, the right this or the
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right mentors.
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>> And there's got to be a better way.
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>> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> And we had stumbled in a project that we
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did that was a a governance analysis of
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how water decisions were made in New
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York. We had stumbled into this tool
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called network analysis um through a a
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collaborator at the University of
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Buffalo. And we start suddenly started
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to see that there was a way to
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systematically
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and more robustly map where are the
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connections between people and
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institutions and and the different roles
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that that people and institutions in a
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map play so that it's not just the
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person who is near you or or that
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organization that looks like yours that
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is the best one to reach out to. They're
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not all created equal and some are
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gatekeepers and some are real connectors
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and some can help you reach something
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that you don't know quite know yet. And
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that fit that that meth methodology
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really connected with our ethos about
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how do we collaborate better
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>> and that began life as uh connecting for
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change and trying to bring that to the
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water sector
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>> because that's not what we that's not
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how we work and it's it's almost social
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science. So it's it's out of the kind of
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the technical realm of most water
00:12:03.760 --> 00:12:05.509
practitioners regardless of kind of
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where you enter
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>> and and that made us a little bit unique
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and has been a really fascinating
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journey to to be the voice of that
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approach or the that ethos in the water
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conversations.
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>> Mhm. Yeah, that that makes a lot of
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sense. And I'm definitely dating myself
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when you're talking about building games
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and simulations, you know, like when you
00:12:25.920 --> 00:12:27.990
think about like for me it was playing
00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:32.310
Sim City or um Roller Coaster Tycoon. um
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uh th those kind of games where you're
00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:36.230
trying to build spaces, but I think it
00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:39.750
can be easy to let our engineering run
00:12:39.760 --> 00:12:42.710
away with creating solutions
00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:46.389
um or creating things before knowing all
00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:48.710
of the variables and conversations and
00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:51.430
impacts of everything. Um, which is
00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:54.230
which is delicate. like we don't I I
00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:57.990
think our human nature is to like I I
00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:00.710
don't necessarily want to
00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:02.310
invite too many people into the
00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:03.990
conversation, but when you're dealing
00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.829
with um shared spaces, which is, you
00:13:07.839 --> 00:13:10.069
know, our land, our conserv the the
00:13:10.079 --> 00:13:12.150
places that we're going to develop
00:13:12.160 --> 00:13:14.470
things, build cities, do whatever, we
00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:17.670
have to um have people that know how to
00:13:17.680 --> 00:13:21.110
say, "Hey, here we need to consider
00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:22.790
we need to consider this here's the
00:13:22.800 --> 00:13:26.870
impact of um here's what this river
00:13:26.880 --> 00:13:30.230
produces for this community making
00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:33.030
changes impacts that um and then there's
00:13:33.040 --> 00:13:35.750
no way to get around it in the in the
00:13:35.760 --> 00:13:37.670
water space you know sometimes people
00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:39.990
say like they love water because it's
00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:42.710
not political on some level I'm like I
00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:44.629
think it's I think it's actually more
00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:49.350
than polit
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:51.190
organize ourselves around this resource
00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.590
and understand the impact that it has on
00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:54.949
our lives.
00:13:54.959 --> 00:13:57.509
>> Yeah, we we had there were kind of two
00:13:57.519 --> 00:13:59.910
moments that that connect to that that
00:13:59.920 --> 00:14:03.269
were I think of when we were at the
00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:04.710
Nation when my team was at the Nation
00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:07.350
Conservancy and one was uh we were
00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:09.670
working with a municipality upstate. We
00:14:09.680 --> 00:14:12.150
were doing we were going to do kind of a
00:14:12.160 --> 00:14:14.710
a a plan for how they could manage their
00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:17.189
watershed some of which didn't their
00:14:17.199 --> 00:14:18.949
water supply wershed. some of which
00:14:18.959 --> 00:14:22.790
didn't sit in the the the municipalities
00:14:22.800 --> 00:14:25.189
boundaries. It was in a neighboring one.
00:14:25.199 --> 00:14:28.150
And I remember at the we so we would go
00:14:28.160 --> 00:14:31.350
to the to the village council meetings
00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:33.430
and their environmental board meetings
00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:35.030
and at one of the village council
00:14:35.040 --> 00:14:38.310
meetings, several representatives stood
00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.189
up and said, "Is there a way to do this
00:14:41.199 --> 00:14:44.150
without talking to the neighboring
00:14:44.160 --> 00:14:46.310
town?" on and I said, "No, that's the
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:49.910
whole point here. They have a chunk of
00:14:49.920 --> 00:14:52.069
your watershed under their zoning rags
00:14:52.079 --> 00:14:53.110
and whatever."
00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:57.030
>> And so that that that hey um we do need
00:14:57.040 --> 00:14:58.550
to talk to other people and more than
00:14:58.560 --> 00:15:01.350
that there needs to be a real
00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.269
>> you a real vulnerability of that
00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:05.829
relationship that real collaboration.
00:15:05.839 --> 00:15:08.949
Um, and and then the other part was
00:15:08.959 --> 00:15:10.949
that, and I think this is kind of in my
00:15:10.959 --> 00:15:13.509
DNA and in my co-founder Sarah's DNA,
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:17.189
which is we arrived at that board game
00:15:17.199 --> 00:15:21.430
because we saw a simulation model um
00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:24.389
done by a a Dutch researcher at the at
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:26.389
Deltaris, their their hydrarology
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:27.829
institute. And we're like, this is
00:15:27.839 --> 00:15:28.870
really cool. This would be
00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:31.750
transformative for our partners. And
00:15:31.760 --> 00:15:33.509
then we sat back and said, but we can't
00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:35.269
do this. we don't we don't have enough
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:38.150
resources or the data to create some
00:15:38.160 --> 00:15:41.269
some powerful models, predictive models
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:43.750
that then you could skin over with some
00:15:43.760 --> 00:15:46.710
some game. And one of us had the idea
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:48.790
of, well, what if we just made the game
00:15:48.800 --> 00:15:49.590
part
00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:52.470
>> and we focused on those social elements
00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:55.269
of, hey, how do you start to get people
00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:57.189
to think about working with their
00:15:57.199 --> 00:15:58.870
neighbor in collaboration or working
00:15:58.880 --> 00:16:02.150
with another role in the watershed in
00:16:02.160 --> 00:16:05.670
collaboration to solve a shared problem.
00:16:05.680 --> 00:16:09.189
Um, so that's a that that's a that that
00:16:09.199 --> 00:16:11.509
was a really critical kind of touch
00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:14.470
point for us to say, hm, there there's a
00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:17.030
through thread here about collaboration
00:16:17.040 --> 00:16:19.829
and looking beyond your boundaries.
00:16:19.839 --> 00:16:22.629
>> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I like what you said
00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:26.310
about that, you know, forcing forcing
00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:29.030
some level of vulnerability and that's
00:16:29.040 --> 00:16:30.949
while that's not something that that we
00:16:30.959 --> 00:16:33.189
want to do, creating the safe space of
00:16:33.199 --> 00:16:36.790
letting people um work through that I
00:16:36.800 --> 00:16:39.670
think is almost an exercise in saying
00:16:39.680 --> 00:16:42.150
helping helping us understand what are
00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:43.910
the right questions we should be asking.
00:16:43.920 --> 00:16:46.550
I think a lot of times we we enter into
00:16:46.560 --> 00:16:49.670
things just saying I have my position,
00:16:49.680 --> 00:16:52.629
I'm for or against versus saying we have
00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:54.150
to have a conversation and understanding
00:16:54.160 --> 00:16:56.870
of how we're going to use something that
00:16:56.880 --> 00:17:02.069
is um that is literally fluid. And so we
00:17:02.079 --> 00:17:04.870
don't always we don't own every part of
00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:09.350
it. And so um so we we have to we have
00:17:09.360 --> 00:17:11.510
to enter lean into the actual human
00:17:11.520 --> 00:17:14.390
experience that we um that were actually
00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:16.710
designed to have more than anything
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.909
else. The the other thing that I think
00:17:19.919 --> 00:17:23.110
in the last few years that I've learned
00:17:23.120 --> 00:17:26.549
is that there's there's another there's
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:30.549
an a complicating skin to that which is
00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:34.789
um the institutions that we that we work
00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:37.990
for or that are part of that landscape.
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.510
Um while many of them
00:17:41.520 --> 00:17:43.909
many of the individuals in them and the
00:17:43.919 --> 00:17:46.310
even their missions uh can
00:17:46.320 --> 00:17:49.270
philosophically recognize the need for
00:17:49.280 --> 00:17:53.110
collaboration or for coordinated action
00:17:53.120 --> 00:17:56.470
or collective action.
00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:59.350
Their incentives for that kind of
00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:01.909
prevent that in some ways. And so
00:18:01.919 --> 00:18:03.590
nonprofits
00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:07.750
um nonprofits are often often kind of in
00:18:07.760 --> 00:18:10.070
looked at as this is the lynch pin to
00:18:10.080 --> 00:18:14.310
kind of putting utilities and um funders
00:18:14.320 --> 00:18:18.150
and corporations together except that
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:20.390
nonprofits are kind of also driven by
00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.110
resource scarcity. They to ensure
00:18:23.120 --> 00:18:24.630
resources they've got to kind of make
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:26.630
sure their brand is out there. there's
00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:31.029
an ownership to their ideas or coming up
00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:34.070
with a new idea or to a project that
00:18:34.080 --> 00:18:36.470
almost precludes them from being
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.110
vulnerable enough to say, "Okay, the
00:18:39.120 --> 00:18:41.350
only way to solve this is if we all kind
00:18:41.360 --> 00:18:43.830
of give up a little
00:18:43.840 --> 00:18:47.990
>> and and and work give some give some
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:49.830
permission to each other to set goals
00:18:49.840 --> 00:18:51.990
and to kind of chime in and be
00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:55.110
collaborative here." And we see that
00:18:55.120 --> 00:18:57.110
um we see that in a lot of different
00:18:57.120 --> 00:18:59.110
ways. All the way from kind of
00:18:59.120 --> 00:19:01.669
inadvertent we have our portfolio, we
00:19:01.679 --> 00:19:03.190
kind of draw our line, we only work
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:04.870
here, we kind of work with certain
00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:09.590
organizations. from that kind of mild um
00:19:09.600 --> 00:19:12.630
almost accidental
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:14.630
inability to kind of really deeply
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:17.190
collaborate all the way to the
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:19.990
fearfulness of if we don't show up at
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:23.830
this meeting and say our stuff, our our
00:19:23.840 --> 00:19:26.470
branding, you know, or our view of the
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:28.950
world, then the other people at the
00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:30.630
meeting, someone else at the meeting,
00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:33.110
another institution will put its message
00:19:33.120 --> 00:19:35.590
out there and they will own the issue.
00:19:35.600 --> 00:19:38.549
and we'll we won't be able to continue.
00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:40.710
>> Yeah. We'll be we need to be on offense,
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:42.390
not we don't want to be on defense the
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:42.789
whole time.
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:45.110
>> And and so there's all this there's this
00:19:45.120 --> 00:19:47.270
we we're not really strengthened or
00:19:47.280 --> 00:19:49.190
incentivized to do it all the way to the
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:51.750
shadow side of collaboration, which is
00:19:51.760 --> 00:19:53.830
almost being subverted. And I don't
00:19:53.840 --> 00:19:56.310
think any of it is totally conscious.
00:19:56.320 --> 00:19:58.230
And I think it's not totally conscious
00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:00.630
because we often don't look at the the
00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:04.390
network effects of, oh, it's not just us
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.270
showing up and trying to deal with them.
00:20:07.280 --> 00:20:09.669
It really is we're all connected here
00:20:09.679 --> 00:20:11.590
trying to solve a larger problem
00:20:11.600 --> 00:20:14.230
>> and I don't quite see that landscape
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:16.789
clearly to understand, oh, I'm one of
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:19.830
many and I'm truly one of many. Yeah.
00:20:19.840 --> 00:20:22.150
>> Um so there there's that complicating
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:24.950
skin over the institutions that we we
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:29.350
kind of rely on um that that complicates
00:20:29.360 --> 00:20:32.390
how we collaborate as a movement around
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:33.909
water
00:20:33.919 --> 00:20:36.950
climate. We see this in philanthropy.
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:40.230
>> We we did a recent analysis of the Great
00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:44.710
Lakes um funders network and looking at
00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:47.029
all of their giving, not just uh not
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:49.190
just water, but everything. And what was
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:52.310
really interesting was despite the fact
00:20:52.320 --> 00:20:54.470
that there's a lot of resources going
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:56.950
into a geographic region to solve a lot
00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:59.190
of social and environmental problems,
00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:01.750
the portfolios for each are fairly
00:21:01.760 --> 00:21:04.470
discreet. There is a fairly small
00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:07.590
percentage of um nonprofits that are
00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:10.149
getting funding from multiple sources
00:21:10.159 --> 00:21:13.669
>> which one suggestion from that is we're
00:21:13.679 --> 00:21:15.909
not able we're not built to be able to
00:21:15.919 --> 00:21:18.310
focus on really either really
00:21:18.320 --> 00:21:20.070
high-erforming
00:21:20.080 --> 00:21:24.310
uh uh nonprofits or really critical
00:21:24.320 --> 00:21:27.830
projects or issues where we're we can or
00:21:27.840 --> 00:21:30.470
are making a difference. we're really
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:32.789
kind of in our own little silos.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:35.270
>> And that is something that in a lot of
00:21:35.280 --> 00:21:37.510
different lights we have seen play out
00:21:37.520 --> 00:21:40.149
every time we've kind of done a larger a
00:21:40.159 --> 00:21:42.630
some sort of larger analysis around
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.590
funding or collaboration that that
00:21:45.600 --> 00:21:48.070
things start to they separate and silo
00:21:48.080 --> 00:21:48.549
out.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:48.870
>> Yeah.
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:51.590
>> Um pretty pretty clearly.
00:21:51.600 --> 00:21:55.750
>> Yeah. That reminds me a lot like of it's
00:21:55.760 --> 00:21:58.789
it's the pendulum swing that we even see
00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:01.590
in in government funding with SRF.
00:22:01.600 --> 00:22:03.190
There's always this like you know state
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.350
revolving loan funds there are these
00:22:05.360 --> 00:22:08.630
things but then there's this always
00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:12.230
tense um tension and conversation around
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:14.149
earmarks and like well what happens when
00:22:14.159 --> 00:22:16.310
things get specified here and people
00:22:16.320 --> 00:22:18.470
can't decide what it's how it's best
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:20.070
used for the
00:22:20.080 --> 00:22:22.630
>> greater good of their state. Uh but the
00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:25.990
notion of ear marks helps um elected
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.590
officials put their name on something to
00:22:27.600 --> 00:22:28.950
keep the program going in the first
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:30.549
place. So it's just there's just kind of
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:33.430
this like stuck in the middle um aspect.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:36.230
And um you were saying before we before
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:37.430
we hit record, you were talking about
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:39.669
how you you know this conversation was
00:22:39.679 --> 00:22:42.310
coming off of the heels um of an event
00:22:42.320 --> 00:22:43.990
that you were just at that kind of
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:45.909
illustrated the network effect. Um would
00:22:45.919 --> 00:22:48.470
love for you to talk more about that.
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:50.630
Yeah. So, it was the um the Alliance for
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:53.190
Water Stewardships um global water
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:56.230
stewardship summit and throughout all
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:58.149
the conversations whether they were
00:22:58.159 --> 00:23:03.590
about innovative funding or um uh the
00:23:03.600 --> 00:23:06.470
the the alliance's membership structure
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:09.590
or corporate water stewardship projects
00:23:09.600 --> 00:23:11.990
around the world. There was there was a
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:14.230
lot of talk about collective action was
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:16.470
the way to kind of essentially scale up
00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:20.149
impact. But but it but and explicitly
00:23:20.159 --> 00:23:21.909
this was the first year that I can
00:23:21.919 --> 00:23:23.510
remember this ever being said that
00:23:23.520 --> 00:23:26.470
explicitly it relied upon trust and
00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:30.149
relationships. Every every kind of
00:23:30.159 --> 00:23:32.549
dissection or description of a project
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:35.830
or a or a or a convening or a gathering
00:23:35.840 --> 00:23:37.669
or something it was multistakeholder
00:23:37.679 --> 00:23:40.149
kind of at some point said something
00:23:40.159 --> 00:23:42.549
about trust and relationships. But then
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:45.669
there was this jump from yeah these are
00:23:45.679 --> 00:23:47.590
the really this is really what matters
00:23:47.600 --> 00:23:51.110
to hey we should we need more funding or
00:23:51.120 --> 00:23:53.350
we need to you know have a platform that
00:23:53.360 --> 00:23:55.510
people can interact with or we just need
00:23:55.520 --> 00:23:57.350
to get more people in the room or make
00:23:57.360 --> 00:23:59.430
sure there's more diversity and it kind
00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:01.430
of skipped over we spend a lot of time
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:05.190
on um infrastructure whether it's real
00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:07.909
in water infrastructure or kind of the
00:24:07.919 --> 00:24:11.029
the institutional infrastructure of of
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:13.430
money power, you know, coordination,
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:14.310
etc.
00:24:14.320 --> 00:24:17.430
>> And we spend very little time even
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:19.029
talking about the relational
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:22.310
infrastructure. And I I think it is in
00:24:22.320 --> 00:24:25.430
part because that's a soft skill that is
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:28.470
perceived as a soft skill. I mean, most
00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:31.190
>> engineers and communicators and
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:32.549
biologists
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:35.430
>> and managers don't know kind of the
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:37.669
social science part of that where you
00:24:37.679 --> 00:24:39.830
can measure those things. you you can
00:24:39.840 --> 00:24:41.990
come up with ways to build trust and and
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:44.149
familiarity and and build those
00:24:44.159 --> 00:24:47.110
relational ties. It's just out of our
00:24:47.120 --> 00:24:49.830
it's beyond our purview or beyond the
00:24:49.840 --> 00:24:51.590
it's in the midst of the edges of the
00:24:51.600 --> 00:24:52.789
water community.
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:53.110
>> Yeah.
00:24:53.120 --> 00:24:54.710
>> And we're not alone in that, but it's
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:56.630
one of those things where it was always
00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:58.470
mentioned, but the solutions never
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:02.070
revolved around it. And we could just if
00:25:02.080 --> 00:25:03.830
we just reached out we could we could
00:25:03.840 --> 00:25:05.990
grab some expertise and bring it into
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.830
the fold which is
00:25:07.840 --> 00:25:10.549
>> I think become connecting for change's
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:13.510
role in these conversations.
00:25:13.520 --> 00:25:16.390
>> Yeah. Yeah. That reminds me like one of
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:20.390
my um one one quote that kind of lives
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:22.789
lives rentree in my head. I believe it
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:25.029
was FDR said you know people don't care
00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:26.470
how much you know until they know how
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:29.909
much you care. And that is just that
00:25:29.919 --> 00:25:32.070
plays out over and over that it's like
00:25:32.080 --> 00:25:34.630
they only know what how much you care
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:37.190
once you start communicating and they
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:39.750
feel trusted with
00:25:39.760 --> 00:25:41.269
information or trusted with
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:43.669
transparency. And I recognize that
00:25:43.679 --> 00:25:46.470
that's a double-edged sword of like how
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:48.230
much unstructured information do you
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.029
want to give give people that is
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:53.669
actually more confusing and doesn't
00:25:53.679 --> 00:25:57.350
>> doesn't allow them to react to anything.
00:25:57.360 --> 00:25:59.830
um substantial. So like there's an art
00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:01.750
in creating the container for the
00:26:01.760 --> 00:26:03.350
conversation
00:26:03.360 --> 00:26:06.070
um and recognizing that we're stewards
00:26:06.080 --> 00:26:08.870
of different kinds of containers um and
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:10.390
we're we're figuring out where these
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:11.669
overlay
00:26:11.679 --> 00:26:14.230
>> and I and I think you this is a little
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:17.510
bit of a of a diversion from that but I
00:26:17.520 --> 00:26:20.950
think there is a a relationship that um
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:26.149
we see that a lot. So as a as a bio
00:26:26.159 --> 00:26:28.310
early in my career as a biologist or
00:26:28.320 --> 00:26:29.830
hydraologist
00:26:29.840 --> 00:26:33.029
um I did monitoring projects we had data
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:35.590
we tried to use that data and have that
00:26:35.600 --> 00:26:37.830
data inform local decisions or
00:26:37.840 --> 00:26:40.870
organizational decisions and it took a
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:44.789
long time to realize that the the data
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:47.830
that was meaningful to me wasn't
00:26:47.840 --> 00:26:51.830
necessarily meaningful to others. And I
00:26:51.840 --> 00:26:54.549
think there is this there is and there
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:57.029
is this simultaneously there is in kind
00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:59.430
of in the in the environmental movement
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.149
broadly there is always this clamor for
00:27:02.159 --> 00:27:03.590
more data.
00:27:03.600 --> 00:27:06.149
>> And I I think there is a slight
00:27:06.159 --> 00:27:10.870
disconnect between the the more data or
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:14.630
any data communicating what really
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:16.470
people need to know. What people need to
00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:19.430
know not what the data says is you need
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:22.149
to know this. it's hey this would help
00:27:22.159 --> 00:27:25.909
me. Um and in fact we had a we we had a
00:27:25.919 --> 00:27:27.350
discussion with
00:27:27.360 --> 00:27:29.830
>> um an institution recently and they they
00:27:29.840 --> 00:27:31.590
were building out a dashboard to make
00:27:31.600 --> 00:27:35.190
water management decisions and I was I I
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:38.390
kind of called out and I said um
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.630
>> so you're dealing with citizens who are
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:42.630
part of the decision-m process in the
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:46.950
state you're at. uh do do they know what
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:50.149
you know these units mean and how will
00:27:50.159 --> 00:27:52.870
they know when it's too little or too
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.750
much or whether they're right on because
00:27:55.760 --> 00:27:57.909
that you're not articulating that in the
00:27:57.919 --> 00:28:00.389
in the dashboard or the tool and I think
00:28:00.399 --> 00:28:03.510
that there is this this giving people
00:28:03.520 --> 00:28:05.830
the pieces of information
00:28:05.840 --> 00:28:08.630
>> in the way or the tools in the way that
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:11.430
they need to to be able to do something
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:13.830
productive with it constructive with
00:28:13.840 --> 00:28:17.029
And that is there is more to that than I
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:20.950
think there is more art or science to
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.789
that than I think that we give credit
00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:26.149
for. Um and I I think we see that in our
00:28:26.159 --> 00:28:29.990
relational work too that we you know
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.590
>> uh my co-founder and I have worked
00:28:31.600 --> 00:28:35.909
really hard to we we don't give giant
00:28:35.919 --> 00:28:39.029
spidery network maps to people because
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:41.990
it looks cool and nearly every network
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.789
scientist network analyst gives you that
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:46.870
but you're like well there are a few
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:48.950
things I can take away from the best of
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:51.510
them but most of them they're just too
00:28:51.520 --> 00:28:53.590
overwhelming. What I really need to know
00:28:53.600 --> 00:28:55.430
is
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:57.830
>> who do I who do I go to? Who do I talk
00:28:57.840 --> 00:29:00.230
to? Where where where is that path that
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:02.470
I can thread that gets gets me my end
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:04.470
objective? A new funer, a new
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:06.389
collaborator, a new
00:29:06.399 --> 00:29:08.310
>> a new something or strengthens
00:29:08.320 --> 00:29:10.470
something. And often times that's not
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:13.029
the raw data set looking at you or
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:15.190
>> something an academic would would want
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:17.190
there. There's a place for that, but
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:19.669
it's trying to kind of mesh what is what
00:29:19.679 --> 00:29:21.430
do the people that really are on the
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:24.149
ground or on the edge need to know and
00:29:24.159 --> 00:29:25.909
what is it that I have that I can kind
00:29:25.919 --> 00:29:27.750
of transform into that.
00:29:27.760 --> 00:29:31.110
>> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And now and that those
00:29:31.120 --> 00:29:33.750
kind of themes
00:29:33.760 --> 00:29:37.830
pull me so much into the world of like
00:29:37.840 --> 00:29:40.230
um you know some of the psychologists
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:43.990
and um folks who lean in into that for
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:45.750
um for the way they talk about
00:29:45.760 --> 00:29:47.110
communication. But I think about like
00:29:47.120 --> 00:29:49.269
Bnee Brown talking you know her phrase
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:51.190
of clear is kind and how do you give
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:52.549
clarity to what you're actually trying
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.029
to communicate. It's not giving tons of
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:57.830
information as much as it is giving
00:29:57.840 --> 00:30:00.950
insight about what are what are we what
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:03.510
are we talking about? like it's um and
00:30:03.520 --> 00:30:06.070
that a lot of times we can we can
00:30:06.080 --> 00:30:09.669
mistake giving a lot of things as
00:30:09.679 --> 00:30:12.070
communicating when it's actually
00:30:12.080 --> 00:30:14.070
creating more confusion cuz it's taking
00:30:14.080 --> 00:30:17.110
me a lot of time to process it and then
00:30:17.120 --> 00:30:19.830
my my brain checks out and then I and
00:30:19.840 --> 00:30:21.110
then I'm just going to latch on to
00:30:21.120 --> 00:30:22.389
whatever
00:30:22.399 --> 00:30:25.750
>> whatever thing seemed interesting. Um,
00:30:25.760 --> 00:30:27.669
and I I think we see that a lot with
00:30:27.679 --> 00:30:31.269
like um how uh information becomes
00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:34.310
misinformation or or disinformation or
00:30:34.320 --> 00:30:38.470
something else is like there was so much
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:40.710
enough of it felt true and it ran ran
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:42.870
away and now we're um combating versus
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:44.470
saying, "Hey, we're going to agree
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:48.950
within this container." Um which is
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:50.789
epically hard to do.
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:53.669
>> Yeah. And and there and there is kind I
00:30:53.679 --> 00:30:56.950
think in the water community there is a
00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:59.510
there is a challenge that compounds that
00:30:59.520 --> 00:31:03.350
that that just the raw idea of message
00:31:03.360 --> 00:31:08.149
or utility of of information packet and
00:31:08.159 --> 00:31:12.549
it's that um and my so my my co-founder
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:15.669
um Sarah lives in Maine. I'm in New York
00:31:15.679 --> 00:31:19.669
and she has a role that uh locally she
00:31:19.679 --> 00:31:21.909
works with the soil water district and
00:31:21.919 --> 00:31:24.230
others on on local water issues. And
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:26.710
there was one particular day she wrote
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:30.470
me um she was working with a farmer
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:32.549
standing on the edge of a drainage ditch
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:34.230
looking at where it was dumping into a
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:35.990
creek and there was a bridge that was of
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:39.190
concern um uh because it had been
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:41.669
flooded out a couple times and so that
00:31:41.679 --> 00:31:44.149
and it was tied to could the ambulance
00:31:44.159 --> 00:31:45.509
is a really rural area. could the
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:47.190
ambulance and firetrs get over it
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:49.509
reliably? Kind of a very nuts andbolts
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:51.190
on the ground type thing.
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:54.070
>> And I was I was sitting on a virtual
00:31:54.080 --> 00:31:57.430
meeting with uh global institutions
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:00.389
talking about
00:32:00.399 --> 00:32:02.789
>> global water, you know, sustainability
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:05.110
goals. And she said, where is the
00:32:05.120 --> 00:32:06.950
connection between the two of those?
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:09.269
It's like crazy that you and I are in
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:12.470
the same field and we we're disconnected
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:16.710
by that much. And it began this idea of
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:19.110
there are examples in the world where
00:32:19.120 --> 00:32:21.750
the knowledge and experience of of
00:32:21.760 --> 00:32:24.149
utilities and conservation groups who
00:32:24.159 --> 00:32:26.310
are doing projects on the ground feeds
00:32:26.320 --> 00:32:30.470
back to that that center that that where
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:32.230
they're setting large goals or
00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:34.470
frameworks or understanding what is
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:36.149
happening on the ground and changing
00:32:36.159 --> 00:32:39.590
policy in some cases. But the water
00:32:39.600 --> 00:32:42.470
sector doesn't really have that. And I
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:44.310
would argue that there are that it's not
00:32:44.320 --> 00:32:46.630
unique to us, but that example where
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:48.470
what we say the center is connected to
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:50.470
the edges and there's the ability to
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:51.350
learn
00:32:51.360 --> 00:32:53.430
>> the and the ability is not just we're
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:54.870
going to shove stuff, you know, our
00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:58.149
great ideas from from Washington or New
00:32:58.159 --> 00:33:00.950
York down into, you know, Cincinnati,
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:04.710
Ohio. it's that um we recognize what the
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:07.190
learnings are from the Cincinnati Water
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:09.990
Utility um back at the center and hey
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.230
that influences the goals or the
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:14.310
framework or the tools or whatever it is
00:33:14.320 --> 00:33:17.269
that our center role is so that when we
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:18.870
send it out next time they see
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:19.990
themselves in it
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.070
>> and there's that feedback loop and we
00:33:22.080 --> 00:33:25.509
see that there there issues there are um
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:27.350
there are examples from politics there
00:33:27.360 --> 00:33:29.110
are examples from co-management of
00:33:29.120 --> 00:33:31.669
fisheries and even M
00:33:31.679 --> 00:33:35.350
>> um uh uh tribal management of bison
00:33:35.360 --> 00:33:37.269
herds out west where they've kind of
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:39.590
perfected this. it it goes out, but
00:33:39.600 --> 00:33:41.350
there's also a signal that comes back.
00:33:41.360 --> 00:33:44.070
And so it's vibrant and everybody feels
00:33:44.080 --> 00:33:47.269
connected to a movement or at least a
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:48.470
purpose.
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:51.029
>> And it's part of that keeping the
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.070
fidelity of information, but it's and it
00:33:54.080 --> 00:33:56.389
and it is also having the pathways to
00:33:56.399 --> 00:33:59.269
connect that that learning and then the
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:01.909
data the data and experience root back
00:34:01.919 --> 00:34:04.230
to the center to be digested and put
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:07.350
into the hole. um which is which is
00:34:07.360 --> 00:34:09.349
really missing because we don't and I
00:34:09.359 --> 00:34:11.190
think it's I think what it gets labeled
00:34:11.200 --> 00:34:12.790
as
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:15.349
many times at the global level is well
00:34:15.359 --> 00:34:18.310
we don't have something as simple as you
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:20.790
know carbon concentrations in the
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:22.790
atmosphere. We need something really
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:24.629
simple and I think it's
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:26.550
>> I I I think it's more than simple. I
00:34:26.560 --> 00:34:29.190
think it's how we invest in making sure
00:34:29.200 --> 00:34:30.790
that
00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:34.470
the that restoration project in Florida
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.909
and the water utility in Philadelphia,
00:34:37.919 --> 00:34:40.230
those messages and and lessons learned
00:34:40.240 --> 00:34:43.430
and and investments and experiences feed
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:46.629
back into, oh, this is what this is what
00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:49.349
it means to do this thing well, or this
00:34:49.359 --> 00:34:51.669
is how we can change our our incentive
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:53.589
structure so there's more funding or
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:55.510
better capacity building or whatever it
00:34:55.520 --> 00:34:56.310
may
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:58.630
And we we lose that sometimes.
00:34:58.640 --> 00:35:01.670
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we do. And it's it's
00:35:01.680 --> 00:35:04.950
it's one of those things that is just um
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:10.069
as from from my perspective um in uh
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:13.030
coming from 120 water where we work with
00:35:13.040 --> 00:35:15.750
um communities and state agencies um
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:18.310
more specific on regulation for
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:22.870
utilities um most popularly with lead uh
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:25.030
lead legislation. there's a lot of
00:35:25.040 --> 00:35:27.030
transparency and the EPA is demanding a
00:35:27.040 --> 00:35:29.349
lot more data be reported up and
00:35:29.359 --> 00:35:31.510
communicated out and that transparency
00:35:31.520 --> 00:35:33.750
loop is
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:37.510
uh it both you know I I think we're
00:35:37.520 --> 00:35:39.109
still in the middle of grappling with
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:41.510
like hey that helps each state kind of
00:35:41.520 --> 00:35:43.910
put some benchmarks that has to be
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:45.829
published we're trying to get to zero
00:35:45.839 --> 00:35:48.069
lead how are we doing how much is left
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:49.430
what are we doing over this 10-year time
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:51.670
frame so it does it does time box it a
00:35:51.680 --> 00:35:53.670
little bit and it it at least gives some
00:35:53.680 --> 00:35:55.430
standard standardization
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:59.910
um um to it. But um but there's there's
00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:01.829
always that role of how much do you
00:36:01.839 --> 00:36:04.069
standardize versus how much do you allow
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:09.910
to be localized um because uh each each
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:12.950
place has different things that are
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:16.550
important or constraints um to them.
00:36:16.560 --> 00:36:19.910
>> Yeah. And the the thing that kind of
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.630
reminds me of is so we a couple years
00:36:22.640 --> 00:36:27.750
ago um uh Sarah Weightley and I and some
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:29.349
some others who used to be at the Nature
00:36:29.359 --> 00:36:32.710
Conservancy published a paper on on data
00:36:32.720 --> 00:36:34.550
use
00:36:34.560 --> 00:36:36.550
by utilities and others in New York
00:36:36.560 --> 00:36:39.109
State. And it was re for for water
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:40.870
management. And it was re what was
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:43.910
really fascinating was the data that
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:47.109
they were investing in collecting was
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:50.150
stuff that was um
00:36:50.160 --> 00:36:52.390
compliance-based. It was it was in the
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:54.069
regulations and you do this.
00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:56.790
>> It was not the data that many of them
00:36:56.800 --> 00:36:59.030
said, hey, if we really if you really
00:36:59.040 --> 00:37:01.510
wanted us to manage things long-term or
00:37:01.520 --> 00:37:03.990
in the context of climate change or for
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:06.310
these other things, we would actually
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:09.030
choose ourselves. And I I thought that
00:37:09.040 --> 00:37:12.150
was a really interesting finding from
00:37:12.160 --> 00:37:16.710
that. And then also knowing how our and
00:37:16.720 --> 00:37:19.750
New York is a may not be a unique case
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:22.390
in many ways, but I think in a
00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:24.950
regulatory or governance uh situation,
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:27.030
it kind of is big,
00:37:27.040 --> 00:37:29.349
>> you know, seemingly wealthy state, but
00:37:29.359 --> 00:37:31.990
our agencies, they're juggling a lot.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.150
They're under they're underresourced.
00:37:34.160 --> 00:37:36.230
And so their ability to kind of say,
00:37:36.240 --> 00:37:38.310
"Wait a second,
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:42.150
>> we we can send a better signal out to
00:37:42.160 --> 00:37:44.790
our the the data generators and the
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:47.270
actual managers of resources both in the
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:49.670
water utility realm, but also in the
00:37:49.680 --> 00:37:51.589
environmental realm. And we can we can
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:53.510
do a better job of having this back and
00:37:53.520 --> 00:37:55.030
forth with them. M
00:37:55.040 --> 00:37:57.109
>> and
00:37:57.119 --> 00:37:58.950
and there are also state agencies that
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:01.589
are not able to New York doesn't have a
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:03.270
water resource management plan at the
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:04.470
state level.
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:07.030
>> It it it ju it can't it it doesn't have
00:38:07.040 --> 00:38:09.190
enough bandwidth to do that and hasn't
00:38:09.200 --> 00:38:12.310
since the late 80s. And so there's some
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:14.150
real fundamental structural challenges
00:38:14.160 --> 00:38:18.150
that we're not investing in as a society
00:38:18.160 --> 00:38:19.910
that could help prepare us for the
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.550
future. And then I also lay on top of
00:38:22.560 --> 00:38:25.589
this. I got a call, it's been a while
00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:26.630
ago because I was still at the
00:38:26.640 --> 00:38:30.630
conservancy, but for a decade or 15
00:38:30.640 --> 00:38:33.430
years, I was deeply involved with the
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:35.750
Delaware River Basin Commission and the
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:38.710
state agencies that were party to and
00:38:38.720 --> 00:38:41.030
and
00:38:41.040 --> 00:38:44.390
I think we all my teams moved on the
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:46.550
conser we had the conservy's priority
00:38:46.560 --> 00:38:48.310
shifted. We had done what we said we
00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:50.710
were going to do and some of the some of
00:38:50.720 --> 00:38:52.950
the agency folks had gone on to retire
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:56.630
and been promoted in all the states. And
00:38:56.640 --> 00:38:58.870
one day I got a call from someone who
00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:01.589
had who had been a a a peer and a
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:04.790
partner in those decision-making forums
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.030
and was now at the top of his agency in
00:39:07.040 --> 00:39:09.030
his respective state and said, you know,
00:39:09.040 --> 00:39:10.950
we're running into a problem. And the
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:15.430
problem is is that there was a 20 or 30
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:19.270
year kind of overlap of people in the
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:20.950
states and the cities and the federal
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:23.109
government who all worked together. And
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:25.510
so they they knew they knew the system,
00:39:25.520 --> 00:39:27.430
they knew the technical system, they
00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:29.349
knew the regulatory system, they also
00:39:29.359 --> 00:39:31.829
knew they had their social bonds. And so
00:39:31.839 --> 00:39:34.230
they knew how to negotiate and navigate
00:39:34.240 --> 00:39:37.670
things socially to arrive at we're going
00:39:37.680 --> 00:39:39.349
to make this decision about this program
00:39:39.359 --> 00:39:41.190
this year and we're all going to be okay
00:39:41.200 --> 00:39:43.349
with it. And he said
00:39:43.359 --> 00:39:46.950
>> most of them are gone. So now we have um
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:49.270
te really competent people but people
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:51.589
who don't know the technical system,
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:53.589
they don't know the regulatory the
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:56.069
combined regulatory system and they
00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:58.950
don't have those social bonds. And so it
00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:03.349
is it is taking them much longer and it
00:40:03.359 --> 00:40:05.750
is unclear if they can kind of arrive
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:09.990
the same decisions to make the system
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:13.109
work that that we could for nearly three
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:15.910
decades. And I thought that was like one
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:18.550
the fact that he recognized that and was
00:40:18.560 --> 00:40:21.349
calling me about it was was just
00:40:21.359 --> 00:40:23.349
mind-blowing. But also, it was something
00:40:23.359 --> 00:40:24.950
I had never thought of because I always
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:28.390
think, oh yeah, this the state agencies
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:30.390
do their stuff or the legislature does
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:31.829
their stuff. They'll kind of always
00:40:31.839 --> 00:40:34.069
figure it out. And then you realize it
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.069
really comes down to those relationships
00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:37.030
and trust
00:40:37.040 --> 00:40:39.589
>> that are the lubricant that makes it
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:42.150
work or or doesn't make it work. Yeah.
00:40:42.160 --> 00:40:45.510
>> And that that that handoff if we had
00:40:45.520 --> 00:40:46.790
known that was going to be the outcome
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:48.870
in you know I don't know what it was
00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:53.670
2020 after working on it since 1997
00:40:53.680 --> 00:40:55.670
>> we might have put in you know um
00:40:55.680 --> 00:40:58.470
succession plans or
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:00.710
>> done water university or something so
00:41:00.720 --> 00:41:03.190
that that next crop or the that there
00:41:03.200 --> 00:41:04.470
could be those people with those
00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:07.349
relationships and the preparation to
00:41:07.359 --> 00:41:10.069
step into those roles. And granted, some
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:11.190
of them may have been political
00:41:11.200 --> 00:41:13.510
appointees, but there if you had
00:41:13.520 --> 00:41:14.790
invested in that relational
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:16.950
infrastructure, you might not be in that
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:18.710
deficit,
00:41:18.720 --> 00:41:20.950
>> you know, 30, 20 years later.
00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:24.150
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's so so critical. I know
00:41:24.160 --> 00:41:26.870
when when we're um bringing on account
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:30.150
managers or, you know, even um folks who
00:41:30.160 --> 00:41:32.710
are focused on new business for um we've
00:41:32.720 --> 00:41:34.150
said for a long time, you know, business
00:41:34.160 --> 00:41:36.950
moves at the speed of trust. And so if
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:39.030
you don't have that like that's
00:41:39.040 --> 00:41:41.430
ultimately we meas like you said you
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:43.270
measure all of you measure all of these
00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:45.109
things but at a fundamental level it's
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:48.150
actually a report card of how how much
00:41:48.160 --> 00:41:51.430
are we able to build build trust across
00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:54.309
stakeholders. Things move faster when
00:41:54.319 --> 00:41:56.150
there's trust because you're you don't
00:41:56.160 --> 00:41:57.109
have to
00:41:57.119 --> 00:41:59.190
>> you don't have to do all of the all the
00:41:59.200 --> 00:42:02.630
work of of and but it's it is hard work
00:42:02.640 --> 00:42:04.630
to build trust. Um
00:42:04.640 --> 00:42:08.550
>> and and you need people committed to um
00:42:08.560 --> 00:42:10.950
>> you need all stakeholders committed to
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:13.109
um to doing that.
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:16.309
>> So so the to kind of finally put put a
00:42:16.319 --> 00:42:19.109
pin on that um
00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:22.710
three years ago we um we did a network
00:42:22.720 --> 00:42:27.750
analysis of the the 2023 UN um water
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:28.630
meeting
00:42:28.640 --> 00:42:30.710
>> and then uh world water week of that
00:42:30.720 --> 00:42:33.510
same year. And one of the things that
00:42:33.520 --> 00:42:35.750
jumped out, it was funny. We were
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:38.230
working with a partner, um, a technical
00:42:38.240 --> 00:42:40.710
partner that does some of the hardcore
00:42:40.720 --> 00:42:43.109
network analysis, uh, statistics at the
00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:45.109
time, and he doesn't know the water
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:47.510
network, but when he saw the raw the raw
00:42:47.520 --> 00:42:49.589
output of our data, he said, "That's a
00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:53.030
really fragmented network." And so if
00:42:53.040 --> 00:42:54.550
you've ever been to any of those
00:42:54.560 --> 00:42:58.390
national or global meetings, it is very
00:42:58.400 --> 00:42:59.750
>> I'm going to overstate it and say it
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:02.069
feels like family, but there is this
00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:04.390
sense that it is a very tightlyknit
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:08.390
network, but in reality it's not. That
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:11.270
was one finding. The second finding was
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:13.750
there were a small number of people that
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:17.270
were the connectors between, you know,
00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:19.430
the pharmaceutical and the energy sector
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:21.349
and the nonprofit, you know, nature
00:43:21.359 --> 00:43:23.030
people versus the nonprofit water
00:43:23.040 --> 00:43:26.069
people. There were really thin threads
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:29.030
that connected them and and you could
00:43:29.040 --> 00:43:31.430
you could name you could almost name all
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:35.270
of them. Um they're obvious, but but
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:37.349
>> so that was the second finding. And then
00:43:37.359 --> 00:43:39.349
especially with the UN meeting, what was
00:43:39.359 --> 00:43:41.910
really interesting was the evidence that
00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:44.550
if you invested
00:43:44.560 --> 00:43:46.550
um so the Netherlands was one of the
00:43:46.560 --> 00:43:48.790
sponsors of the meeting. The Netherlands
00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:50.390
also
00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:53.109
um sponsored the New York Water Week
00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:55.430
which was happening simultaneously
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:57.829
and you could see that in the network.
00:43:57.839 --> 00:43:59.510
You could see that that they were
00:43:59.520 --> 00:44:01.510
connecting nodes. the the woman who was
00:44:01.520 --> 00:44:03.430
head of the New York Water Week uh
00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:06.230
institution and the couple individuals
00:44:06.240 --> 00:44:08.230
from the Netherlands government or
00:44:08.240 --> 00:44:10.790
representatives were there some others
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:13.510
and then the other one was um there was
00:44:13.520 --> 00:44:17.910
Mina Goul's uh run for the blue and Mina
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:21.430
showed up and her connection to other um
00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:23.829
other sectors running communities in
00:44:23.839 --> 00:44:26.390
Kenya or wherever it may be showed up
00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:28.230
and it was a really strong signal that
00:44:28.240 --> 00:44:31.349
if you invested in connecting people.
00:44:31.359 --> 00:44:32.550
And granted, these may have been
00:44:32.560 --> 00:44:34.150
superficial connections, but if you
00:44:34.160 --> 00:44:37.510
invested in building them, you you could
00:44:37.520 --> 00:44:40.150
you could see it in the data.
00:44:40.160 --> 00:44:43.430
>> And the example I always use in our
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:45.190
trainings and and the stuff we
00:44:45.200 --> 00:44:49.670
facilitate is um is Gmail. Gmail started
00:44:49.680 --> 00:44:52.790
off only internal to the Google offices,
00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:55.670
but there were there were Google alumni
00:44:55.680 --> 00:44:58.710
and and friends who were at MIT and
00:44:58.720 --> 00:45:00.790
Harvard and they started the folks in
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:02.950
Certino started to share their their
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:05.990
links with them and you there's a study
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.790
out there that shows how what started
00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:11.270
off as really thin bridges between a few
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:13.190
individuals in the in the Google
00:45:13.200 --> 00:45:15.670
headquarters and in these research
00:45:15.680 --> 00:45:18.710
institutions started to multiply.
00:45:18.720 --> 00:45:20.950
And you got to a point where there were
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:22.710
really wide bridges with lots of
00:45:22.720 --> 00:45:24.950
connections that came out organically
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:27.670
and then it was something that Google
00:45:27.680 --> 00:45:29.030
probably knew and was probably part of
00:45:29.040 --> 00:45:31.510
the road map you couldn't contain and so
00:45:31.520 --> 00:45:33.750
you need to release it more broadly. But
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:36.630
those bridges can be built and they're
00:45:36.640 --> 00:45:39.670
really fundamental to creating you know
00:45:39.680 --> 00:45:41.510
whether it's momentum to disseminate
00:45:41.520 --> 00:45:44.150
something or the strength of resilience
00:45:44.160 --> 00:45:46.630
of an idea or movement
00:45:46.640 --> 00:45:49.109
>> and ultimately it it's individuals. So
00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:53.510
that trust of who do I connect with here
00:45:53.520 --> 00:45:55.510
>> to find out something or to say
00:45:55.520 --> 00:45:58.710
something or to make something happen.
00:45:58.720 --> 00:46:02.470
>> Yeah. I I mean I I feel like that that
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:08.069
lands us perfectly into what you know
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:13.670
what happens at Catalyst in um that uh
00:46:13.680 --> 00:46:16.390
Chelsea and and Rogue Water um and Greg
00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:18.950
have really you know created was how do
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:21.430
you build those connections and and I
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:24.390
I've really appreciated how much they've
00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:27.510
um been intentional about um being
00:46:27.520 --> 00:46:29.510
intentional about creating the case, but
00:46:29.520 --> 00:46:31.190
also being intentional about leaving
00:46:31.200 --> 00:46:33.030
enough enough freedom within that
00:46:33.040 --> 00:46:34.790
framework for those connections to
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:37.030
happen. Um, one of the things we're not
00:46:37.040 --> 00:46:39.829
allowed to do that um Chelsea and I
00:46:39.839 --> 00:46:42.950
talked about on this podcast was she
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:45.670
likes for things to be surprises at
00:46:45.680 --> 00:46:47.270
Catalyst. So, she's like, I don't want
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:49.990
to give everything away um on any
00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:52.390
interview. if they want more, you're
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:55.589
gonna have to sign up um and uh check
00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:57.910
out the conference um which will be in
00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:00.470
in the show notes to sign up and and um
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:01.990
any of the guests that are listening
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.390
would would get to know more, get to
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:06.790
experience um what you're going to bring
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:10.550
as a guide to um to Catalyst and um I
00:47:10.560 --> 00:47:12.390
could easily this conversation could go
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:16.150
on for another hour. Um and uh I'm
00:47:16.160 --> 00:47:18.309
excited that that this has been the
00:47:18.319 --> 00:47:20.550
conduit to connect us, George. And um
00:47:20.560 --> 00:47:22.550
thank you so much for being being on
00:47:22.560 --> 00:47:24.710
this podcast. Um and I'm looking forward
00:47:24.720 --> 00:47:26.950
to meeting you in person at uh at
00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:28.710
Catalyst in San Diego.
00:47:28.720 --> 00:47:30.630
>> Yep. Absolutely. No, this is really fun
00:47:30.640 --> 00:47:34.710
and I I like to I like that you you and
00:47:34.720 --> 00:47:37.430
and the Rogue Water Lab crew kind of
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:40.309
term it as guide because that's the
00:47:40.319 --> 00:47:43.430
that's the framing that we always use
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:45.030
with our with our clients and our
00:47:45.040 --> 00:47:47.430
partners that we we don't have the
00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:49.349
answer. We're not telling you what to do
00:47:49.359 --> 00:47:51.910
or how to connect the system or wire it,
00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:53.990
but we'll be a guide to show you where
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:55.510
the first steps are
00:47:55.520 --> 00:47:57.589
>> and to help you kind of along the way.
00:47:57.599 --> 00:47:59.430
And so I think it's a really great per
00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:02.230
um description of kind of the way Sarah
00:48:02.240 --> 00:48:03.910
and I see ourselves. I definitely see
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:04.950
myself that way.
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:07.349
>> Yeah. Yeah. It it honors the humanity of
00:48:07.359 --> 00:48:09.109
the folks that we that you get to work
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:11.510
with where we we're at our best when we
00:48:11.520 --> 00:48:13.750
get to discover things rather than be
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:15.750
told things. And so,
00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:19.190
>> um, it is a process of of discovery. Um,
00:48:19.200 --> 00:48:21.829
and so, yeah, I'm I'm thrilled, um, and
00:48:21.839 --> 00:48:23.109
excited that we get to have this
00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:25.190
conversation. Um, and thank you to
00:48:25.200 --> 00:48:27.589
everyone who has tuned in to the Make
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:29.910
Waterwork podcast. Um, we love making
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:33.030
this podcast. We also really like that,
00:48:33.040 --> 00:48:34.470
um, there's been this opportunity to
00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:37.190
have this, um, Make Waterwork Catalyst
00:48:37.200 --> 00:48:40.470
Collab, um, as as the kids say. But, um,
00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:41.829
we'll see you next time and can't wait
00:48:41.839 --> 00:48:45.680
to introduce you to our next guest.