speaker-0: I'm so delighted today to be here with Bob Neville, a man who every time I see him is in an escalating sort of hierarchy of increasingly impressive outdoor activities. You know, it's not content with fel running or sort of ultra running next time he's jumping out of a plane. Bob, thanks for making the rest of us look utterly sort of inadequate. How are you today?
speaker-1: I'm excellent, Patrick. Really, really great to be here. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't ever believe what you see or read these days, not with AI around. So, but definitely the older I, the older I get, the faster and more extreme with the sports I took part in, but great, great to be in the outdoor industry and yeah, a nice snowy, chilly January, which is I think good for all of us.
speaker-0: Definitely, definitely. ⁓ So after I have massacred the technical details of this podcast in a matter that can only be described as wildly unprofessional, I'm delighted that we finally got to the sort of start line of this interview. And I wonder if you'd start by giving us a little insight into you growing up. It's always so fascinating to hear people's backstories and histories and... I wonder if there's a story or an anecdote or any sort of personal reflections that you might share that could give us an insight into what you, Bob, were like growing up as a young person.
speaker-1: Well, that's how long we've got. would sort of summarize it in so much as I've spent most of my life living overseas, born in France, lived in Germany a couple of times. Although I was born in France, I'm not actually French, I have a British passport. Longest I've lived anywhere is over in Asia. But I think the red line that runs through things is I love people. love human interaction. I love meeting people. ⁓ And I like to have adventure and excitement. And I have no strategy. This sounds really bad. I have no strategy in my life. like Julie, my wife and I, it's a little bit like being a piece of driftwood. know, we all we see something interesting, something shiny and nice, and we all gravitate towards that. you know, people often have sort of said, ⁓ you're not retired yet. It's just like, why would I retire? There's so many great things that we can get up to and who knows what we're going to be doing in sort of coming years. yeah, I think a sense of adventure, a love of people, and I suppose a global curiosity has underpinned what I've done throughout my life with hindsight. I certainly wouldn't have given you the same answer in my 20s.
speaker-0: I love that. And I wonder, did you have any nerdy hobbies as sort of, ⁓ as a young person? I will just admit that basically the nerdy hobbies that I had as a child, I've now like gone back into. So like I used to be into Warhammer and now it's basically like on the FTSE 100 and like one of the most wildly profitable retail businesses in the world. I've gone back into Warhammer. So I'm one of those idiots that's basically like building and painting little models. of sort of wild mythical creatures, but do you have any weird like niche hobbies that you're into, Bob?
speaker-1: Um, I mean, obviously I've got to give a politically correct and appropriate answer. Um, so I won't go into the full detail of what I enjoy doing. But, um, I would say something that I've always enjoyed is, um, model making. Um, and, um, I think your, your, your viewers would have, would know action man as an example. So I'd always enjoy building, you know, camps, cardboard boxes, you know, getting couple boxes and creating. camps and ⁓ cutting out shapes and making camps for my brothers and I and the like. And I think that's something that's just followed through my whole life in terms of creating environments and immersing yourself in imaginative space, I think is something I enjoy. And so it's something I do. Personally, in terms of I love living in interesting places. We live in an 1800s school now. And at the same time, that's sort of something I've done through my professional life, creating spaces that reflect the brands that I've been working with.
speaker-0: And it's so interesting when you see some of those pioneers in terms of architecture and spatial design and how a lot of them grew up through those sort of low fidelity prototyping type approaches that you discussed. I mean, I'm thinking about brands like IDEO, for example, out on the West Coast, they were going like, how do we just use these cardboard boxes to like look at what space might look like or how people might move through a space and... I was just chatting with you in the pre chat yesterday when we spoke, because you had featured in Monocle magazine, but not just in Monocle magazine, but in like a beautifully hard bound book of like the best ever retail spaces in the world. Like, just tell us quickly, Bob, how did that come about? How did you end up getting featured in that? ⁓
speaker-1: I think something that happens as you go through your professional life ⁓ is you just get to know lots of people. And like I said, I love to meet people, love to do things like this. And as a result, people end up doing interesting things in interesting places. So ⁓ I've got to admit, I can't even remember how that came about. But my sort of journey into that physical space, and I think... Your viewers that have maybe followed me on LinkedIn would know that I, although I've been a global head of retail for quite a lot of years, I actually really hate retail. ⁓ but, yeah, I really hate retail, but what I, my interest has really come about from a product design perspective. When that product's put in front of a consumer, how do you then get that consumer to interact with your product? And what are the triggers and levers that you can use?
speaker-0: Where?
speaker-1: to get that human being to do something. that consumer centric human centric perspective is something that I really enjoy. And then you apply that to the different brands. So I really start my sort of journey in that sort of retail brand space by an interest in who are you trying to sell to? And probably better put who are you trying to get emotionally engaged with your brand? ⁓ and what are the triggers that you need to, sort of put into your engagement and physical space, ⁓ shops again, shops is a very clunky, very clunky basic word. ⁓ but that, that's where my level of interest comes from. mean, it's, can create incredible spaces that, that are maybe awesome for the brands, but absolutely terrible for sales. And you can do something that's great for sales and terrible for the brand. So I, I like to live at that intersection of, of, of sort of. brand creative and commercially ⁓ building. so emotion led transaction follows.
speaker-0: And we were chatting yesterday that you've just sort of relatively recently taken up ⁓ a newish role and you're trying to thread a needle for, you know, a very well known sort of brand in the outdoor space and trying to sort of reboot, reenergize, lift up. And I wonder if you would just tell us a little bit about where you've now landed, Bob, and kind of how you see the challenge there.
speaker-1: Yeah, I so I'm ⁓ now working with Pentland brands ⁓ with specifically as a kickoff. I'm working across all the brands, but kicking off with the Burkhouse brand. ⁓ And in very typical fashion. ⁓ Yeah, being up in the northeast after some, yeah, it's a chunk of time in Asia, close to my mom and dad trying to trying to be a good son, make up for all those years overseas. ⁓ But It looked like we were going to be heading back overseas again, which made Sunday lunches with my mom and dad, especially my mom, actually quite, quite uncomfortable as she, yeah, we, we like being all in the same place, but, ⁓ yeah, quite randomly. found myself, I was in Newcastle doing some work with, ⁓ a well-known brand. and I was on Dean street and got a phone call, ⁓ from people that were, ⁓ talking with regards to Bentley brands. ⁓ and specifically Burke house. ⁓ but I was actually outside, ⁓ JD, ⁓ mountain center, which is where Burke house originated. So it was really, ⁓ I suppose quite typical of how things have happened in my life where I get her. What I thought was a random common, you random phone call, about joining an organization with an incredible brand. And I was outside to literally outside sort of ground zero for
speaker-0: chances.
speaker-1: I know. mean, it's pretty crazy, but for me, that was more than enough reason where I should turn around and go, however this has come about, this is obviously a sign that I should be doing something here. yeah, I've been with the great people of Pentland Brands now for about 10 months, I think it is, but focused very much on the Burkhouse brand and Boy, oh boy, I mean, what an incredible brand, you know, founded in 1966, you know, innovated in so many, so many different ways. Um, and just, you know, so ripe for building that, that future with the awesome team led by, um, Charlie Pym, um, and Adam, or heads up, um, marketing, but great, great people, fantastic team, and really excited to be contributing to that.
speaker-0: And just tell us a little bit more about the essence of the Berghaus brand. Like, what is it? What does it stand for? I mean, I declared an interest that when I was away in South America in 1996, God, I had hair back then, Bob, had dreams, I had ambitions, but I also had a ⁓ Berghaus backpack, which was my first interaction with the brand. And I remember the... the feel of the cordura, the straps, just the sheer load carrying ability of that thing. mean, God, was like impossible to knock down. was like sort of rocky Balboa of backpacks. But tell us like a bit about the DNA of the brand and what it means to you and to the wider public, Bob.
speaker-1: Sure, I think it's interesting just to segue out of how you've just described the brand. I think it's really, really important that ⁓ whichever brand, whatever you're working on, it... Yeah, it's not transactional. It's not about selling product. That's the outcome. Yeah. What we do is, is we enable people to create memories and, the products that we create and the products that people engage with us and purchase from us, the products that they take along on those journeys and become part of their memory, just in the way you've described it. ⁓ but it was really interesting whenever I've started with, ⁓ a global brand, the first thing I do is always ask, you know, We've got two ears, two eyes for a reason, one mouth for another reason. So looking and listening is really, really important. And what's really quite funny with this is that my starting point was what, you know, where's Burkhouse from? And I would ask anyone, where's Burkhouse from? And yeah, your viewers, ⁓ a lot of them may well know where Burkhouse is from, but ⁓ A lot of times people turn around and go, oh, well, yeah, it must be a German brand or Swiss brand or something. But it's like, no, know, 19, 1966, Dean Street, Newcastle, Burkhouse is a Geordie brand. It's a Northeastern brand. And I just thought that was so interesting. Yeah, there's so much innovation come from the north of England, you know, industrial revolution and everything else. But, that's, that's, that's where Burkhouse originates from. ⁓ I can only start to imagine why a couple of people in the northeast of England decided to give it a very sort of German sounding name. ⁓
speaker-0: Cool. It sounds really cool and it sounds really expensive. It's a bit like, you know, we were talking about watches before that, know, Hans Wilsdorf who founded Rolex, you he was like Wilsdorf and sons. And then he was like, well, maybe it sound a bit cooler if we came up with Rolex. ⁓ And actually maybe it's the same. Maybe it's like, we don't call it this name, we call it this name. And who knew that the name you call a business was so important,
speaker-1: No, I think that's a great point and I think it's something where... ⁓ anyone involved in business and brands, you know, have to look at the life cycle of that brand. And there's a time when a brand still has its founders around. There's a time when a brand can become more corporate and lose its way in terms of the original founders intent. So I think it's really important. Yeah. And the roles I play is to come in and almost have for my own benefit. When I start. a ⁓ level set. What is this brand about? Where does it come from? What does it mean? What's the journey it's been on? Where is it now? And what can that mean for the future? But I think what's really important is that we have within Pentland brands some incredible properties, Burkhouse being one of them. But if you then start to sort of use that point of truth ⁓ as a way of making sure that you're true to your DNA. ⁓ Then it starts to unlock so many things that enrich its DNA, enrich its worth to potential consumers and people that would want to engage with that brand. think where it gets ⁓ tricky at times is if you aren't true to who you are, your DNA and what you stand for, ⁓ you start to lose your way and that sort of, you know, that red thread that should keep you true or that Northern star, if you will. So really exciting. mean, again, I look at it and such shuts rich DNA, great people, great product design. Yeah, it's really there to happen and it's absolute honor and privilege to be part of that team.
speaker-0: So where you're sitting right now, Bob, I mean, obviously not necessarily, metaphorically than perhaps precisely where you're sitting right now, but what do you see as like the sort of key, because obviously we talk on this podcast about a decision that changed everything. And there you were standing outside the birthplace of this brand, being pitched this opportunity to help, let's say relaunch, reinvigorate, reboot this brand. What do you now see as like the sort of the key challenges that you're actually facing with all that excitement there? Like what are the biggest jobs to be done in terms of like actually making this promise into a reality? Bob, if that makes sense.
speaker-1: Yeah does and obviously I can't give the whole game away of what we're up to.
speaker-0: You get it, but any sort of juicy morsels that you can share would be great for the audience.
speaker-1: Yeah, I what's I think the top line and something that again, has been a constant through my professional life is really, you've got to take a view on your brand and how you go to market in a way that makes sense for the consumer at a time and place that makes sense for the consumer. And you can't do that if you have one or two ways of going to interact with those consumers. You look at online businesses, native online businesses ⁓ that now have physical stores and there can be lots of different reasons for that. Or you look at ⁓ stores, traditional stores that go into that digital space. But the reality is that any brand needs a multifaceted ⁓ DTC, omni-channel, all sorts of different names you can give it. But we need to meet consumers at a time and a place. And in a way that makes sense for them through 24 hours and 365 days of their life. ⁓ and what I've seen in the past is that, ⁓ brands can sometimes get a bit too preoccupied with wholesale or a bit preoccupied with their own retail or preoccupied with, ⁓ e-commerce. And the reality is you need that balanced approach. And today, more so than ever, it is about maximizing each of those channels and understanding how those consumers want to interact with you in those channels and making sure that you're enriching that interaction.
speaker-0: And it's something that's come up in some of the podcasts ⁓ that I've already recorded, but this idea of, and maybe we covered it as well in our pre-chat, I don't remember, forgive me, but this kind of idea about how do brands stay true to their story as they grow? Sometimes as things start to grow, you get these speed wobbles. Another guest had actually described it. businesses become more corporate than more of a storytelling sales vehicle. And I guess it's how one sort of navigates through that upward trajectory while also like sort of differentiating yourself in a market that's been through, and a sector that's been through a really tough time post pandemic. We thought the glory years were gonna last forever and then suddenly it's like, wow, it's been really, really different. So it's not as if the field of play as it were is completely clear either. I feel like it's a very complicated environment in which to operate, know, tariffs, supply chain disruptions, D2C competitors, new entrants. I'd love to just hear your thoughts on how one sort of navigates through that with skill and guile. And maybe you just say like, well, that's 40 years of working in the industry, Bob, and then I'll just shut the hell up.
speaker-1: It's to give some perspective, I think that. What I see and find really interesting is that you have founders of brands ⁓ that are really driven. They've got an insight, they've got a unique product, they've got this entry point. And over time, more people come on board to that organization or it becomes an organization, becomes a corporation. And sometimes that sort of North Star, as I said earlier, that vision gets sort of muddied or gets lost. And then... The corporation, let's say that a lot of these places can become start, know, leadership comes in from other other sectors and they start to have views and opinions about things. And I, and I've seen it multiple times is that you see an incredible brand that then for some and multiple reasons can start thinking of itself in a different way or cloaking itself in wanting to be. Like it's competitor, as opposed to being true to who it is and why it came about in its first instance. So I think, ⁓ yeah, that's really important to always. Ground yourself in where do we come from? Why do we, why, why did, why were we originated? What was our unique point of difference? And what is the core of our DNA? Because, you know, that should be again, the red line, the North star running through the brand. ⁓ and yeah, it's not about. Yeah, living in the past, it's about having that foundation and using that as a way of looking forward. But yeah, again, time and time again, you get ⁓ professional ⁓ management coming in that aren't necessarily brand people. And again, you can have a great looking P &L, which is absolutely destroying a brand. ⁓ And you can have a great brand that has... ⁓ a non-sustaining piano. So again, you've always got to get that balance, but I think it's really important to lead with your unique point of view, your unique point of difference, and to make it easy for people to engage and be part of your journey and to create those memories that you referenced earlier on.
speaker-0: Well, it's so interesting. just had a quick furkel in my drawers for the non British listeners among us. That just means looking in a drawer. It doesn't mean anything more sinister. And I found this picture of my friend, Karen here. And this is us actually. I'm not actually featured in the picture. I'll put this up on the show notes. But this is actually in the Andes in 1996. As I said, I had a lot more hair in those days. This is not actually me. This is Karen. But again, it's like, this is why I want to see Burghaus. succeed because it's like, you know, I had that such formative experience. I we walked for four days carrying like 45, 50 kilos on our back. felt like a human sort of pit pony, Bob. ⁓ You know, it was absolutely horrific. I remember little of the walk, but I remember the relief I felt as I sort of took this enormous backpack off my back. But, you know, the memories I made on that trip, you know, traveling with British kids traveling with Chilean and Argentinian kids, know, just opened my eyes to, you know, just this totally different world. And that's when I think about Burkhouse, you know, I think about that. I mentioned to you yesterday when we chatted, you know, I think about Chris Bonington as well. Like it's, you know, and maybe the Gallagher brothers, but I can't remember which Gallagher brother it is. ⁓ Sorry, Nolan Liam. And there's a third one as well, isn't it? Who we never hear about. Like, he's just like, we never talk about the third one. He's like Bruno from... ⁓ from Encanto, we just don't talk about him. ⁓ But this is kind of why I think it's so fascinating these brands and just before I sort of ask you to sort of name check some of the brands that you think have been doing reboots really well, I'll give you a chance to just sort of turn the mental cogs, but I've been really excited to see some of the reinvention and sort of new design language from Antler in terms of their luggage and. them mining their archives and then you look and feel and you know, you really feel like they're starting to like lean back into that brand. It not just being a utility item that you buy in like a generic luggage store on a high street. It's actually like, it's got a really great e-com offer. It's got an offer that you would want to buy as an impulse purchase at an airport. It's like, they're really mining that stuff. And I've actually bought some of their luggage and it's absolutely wonderful. And it's just like, I wonder, what brands and it doesn't just have to be an outdoor apparel, but like, who do you think is crushing it, Bob? It's always fascinating to hear recommendations and thoughts.
speaker-1: think it's, mean, one I would shout out is another Northeast brand, Barber in South Shields. Again, great group of people doing some incredible things. again, born... Born in the northeast of England from a real need in the same way, know, Berghaus. Yeah, what is it they say? Everything's better up north except the weather and it tends to be pretty, I won't use the language, but.
speaker-0: Please use the language is fine. It's got an E on after the podcast. Yes. So you can say fucking terrible or not.
speaker-1: I've never used the F word, everything's better. But yeah, but Barbara, think doing some really interesting things, some great collabs, you collabs, taking something that's very functional and making it very relevant. And again, I hate the word fashionable. think anyone that's been around for a while hates the word fashion because you can be in fashion out of fashion very quick. So You want to ride that fashion wave, but make sure you're not dependent on it. But I just wanted to come back to sort of the comments you were making here when you sort of said about your trip and, and yeah, Burke house and everything. think something that I found through my career, the brands I've worked with is that at my starting point with these brands, when I've said to my sons or family or friends, ⁓ I'm going to, you know, I'm now working with, yeah, XYZ brands. They tend to turn around and go, ⁓ I remember that brand. had those that brand. It's amazing the memories that people have. But what's interesting, people talk about the brands in the past tense. And I think that's very powerful and something that we could use. And I'll talk about the relevance of memory and product and how that is something that was really powerful today. But that's what I love. Those are the brands I love to work for because if People are so passionate about a brand, you know, the passion that you talk about that Burkhouse backpack, then there's a passion to be ignited for younger consumers, users here today and in the future. But also today, sustainability really, really important. Yeah, we see a lot of negativity about fast fashion and we, like ⁓ many organizations, are very conscious about what we consume and how we use things. ⁓ And a key part of what we do is what we call repair house where product Berghaus product has this lifetime guarantee. Hopefully I've quoted that right. ⁓ So maybe we'll just double check that in the notes below before I cost the brand a fortune. But you can send the products back and I've recently seen some jackets and things from the nineties at the repair house. that maybe need a zip stitching back in or a pocket patching or something, which they'll do. ⁓ Only if fabrics totally perished or beyond repair, will they then come to some arrangement with the person that provided that product for repair. But with those products, come stories. And there's been some great stories with the products that a father, a grandfather that always had his Berghaus jacket for walking the dog. year in year out, yeah, come rain or shine, yeah, passes away. And, you know, his family then send the jacket back to Berghausen and sort of say, Hey, you know, this, this, this is our father, our grandfather, our, my husband. Can you do something meaningful? It's, this isn't something we just want to trash. So there's been numerous instances where the guys that repair, see the repair and give it a new lease of life or if deconstructed it and then manufactured iPhone pouches or something that can then be shared through the family as a memento of that sort of relative that's passed on. So really exciting to see that, again, Barbara have done some great things in that sort of repair space, the rewaxing space. ⁓ Yeah, really, really, really incredible brand. But I don't want to seem sort of like old school, but I do tend to like brands. that have been around for a while, had some challenges. Obviously, I'm a huge fan of Adidas, New Balance, Clark's incredible history. But but also, you know, people like Burberry, great people at Burberry had numerous challenges through the life. But when you look at how Burberry started, the functionality of those jackets and where they are now, incredible, incredible.
speaker-0: Yeah and like great design never goes out of fashion, does it? know, it's, whether it's a Leatherman multi-tool, whether it's a Berghaus backpack, whether it's a Fjällriven jacket, whether it's a Tudor watch, whatever it is, those are design class. Whether it's even an iPhone or even an Xbox controller, know, but people's, in terms of product design, I mean, that is an absolute paragon. There's a reason it's at the ⁓ Smithsonian. in design museum in New York, because basically it is an absolute paragon of industrial design and product design. it's, people have thought about the ergonomics and they've gone, wow, we've really understood how the human hand works and how people wanna be gaming for five, six, 10 hours. I mean, probably you need to get up from your desk and do other things, get outdoors, see your family, maybe eat a meal, eat a full healthy nutritious meal, public service announcement over Bob. But. Yeah, it's great hearing those things and you know for me with Barbara, you know, I My dad is now dead, but I always remember you know for some of my earliest memories growing up in the countryside You know, like I mentioned to you yesterday was in a little village in in Kent, you know We had one we had one pub. We had one bus a week. We had a mobile library that came once a month I mean, it was pretty basic ⁓ But I always remember my dad in barber jackets and it's no surprise that when I went to buy a jacket The first thing I bought was a B Dale barber, you know, because it reminded me of him and I put it on and people say to me, ⁓ my God, you look like your dad. And so it's, it is those stories. It's like, fuck, do I look that old? Just fun side note for listeners. Yesterday our washing machine broke down and the repair guys came to ⁓ fix it and they found a hairband. had got stuck in the sort of wastewater sort of gubbins at the bottom. First thing my wife saw when she saw that it was a hairband pulled out, she just goes, well, at least we didn't, no, it wasn't you who did it, Patrick. ⁓ Listeners, I am bald. So that was the coldest thing my wife said to me yesterday. Big love to Helen, of course, but yeah.
speaker-1: You haven't got a ponytail at the back like me.
speaker-0: It's not all business at the front and sort of party at the back. Well, no, sadly not. It's when you when your hair starts to look like a field of wheat, it's time to basically cut it off, isn't it? But I can't believe half an hour has just passed. Wow. It's gone quickly. How are you doing?
speaker-1: Yeah, really good. I've really enjoyed the conversation and I'm looking forward to seeing the feedback you get and the new people that I can meet and interact as a result of our conversation today.
speaker-0: Definitely, well, as always, I'd like to hand over the sort of microphone, the podium to each guest at the end of the interview. And this really is just a chance to sort of share anything that's in your head or in your heart or on your docket at work. So yeah, over to you, Bob, just before we wrap up.
speaker-1: Yeah, it makes it feel like I should say something really deep and meaningful and sort of, you know, I'm here to change the world and world peace and love. We obviously live in strange times. I suppose that's just life. Yeah, life is, I think, always strange in some shape or form. But I suppose I would sort of say from ⁓ a personal level to everybody watching this just, yeah. Smile, have fun, be kind, treat others as you would want to be treated or treat people better than you would want to be treated because it always comes back. ⁓ Be friendly. But from a professional perspective, I'm super excited about what we're doing here at Pentland Brands, the suite of brands we have here. And obviously, with the work that's going on with Berkhouse, ⁓ going to be a really exciting year, our 60th anniversary. ⁓ We are hiring some really key roles here in London. ⁓ If you could then point people towards my link on LinkedIn, I'll put some of those roles there. ⁓ Love to hear from individuals out there. I'd love to work with some of the individuals out there. I know you've got some incredible people that follow you. So ⁓ I look forward to chatting to you again. World peace, smile, be friendly, happy, have fun. ⁓ And then. then drop us a line to come and join Burkhouse and ⁓ be part of our incredible journey, the outdoor brand of the future.
speaker-0: Bob, thank you so much for your time. It's been a huge pleasure to get to know you through the 15 failed podcast recordings I've tried before this successful one has finally landed. I feel like a sort of a ⁓ rocket builder trying to land the rocket sort of backwards first on one of those sort of platforms out at sea, but we did it. Yay. Virtual high five. Bob, thank you so much and thank you all for listening. I'll make sure that those ⁓ job links are in the post and also we'll chat and happy to share those with others in my network as well. So thank you so much.
speaker-1: I'm excellent, Patrick. Really, really great to be here. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't ever believe what you see or read these days, not with AI around. So, but definitely the older I, the older I get, the faster and more extreme with the sports I took part in, but great, great to be in the outdoor industry and yeah, a nice snowy, chilly January, which is I think good for all of us.
speaker-0: Definitely, definitely. ⁓ So after I have massacred the technical details of this podcast in a matter that can only be described as wildly unprofessional, I'm delighted that we finally got to the sort of start line of this interview. And I wonder if you'd start by giving us a little insight into you growing up. It's always so fascinating to hear people's backstories and histories and... I wonder if there's a story or an anecdote or any sort of personal reflections that you might share that could give us an insight into what you, Bob, were like growing up as a young person.
speaker-1: Well, that's how long we've got. would sort of summarize it in so much as I've spent most of my life living overseas, born in France, lived in Germany a couple of times. Although I was born in France, I'm not actually French, I have a British passport. Longest I've lived anywhere is over in Asia. But I think the red line that runs through things is I love people. love human interaction. I love meeting people. ⁓ And I like to have adventure and excitement. And I have no strategy. This sounds really bad. I have no strategy in my life. like Julie, my wife and I, it's a little bit like being a piece of driftwood. know, we all we see something interesting, something shiny and nice, and we all gravitate towards that. you know, people often have sort of said, ⁓ you're not retired yet. It's just like, why would I retire? There's so many great things that we can get up to and who knows what we're going to be doing in sort of coming years. yeah, I think a sense of adventure, a love of people, and I suppose a global curiosity has underpinned what I've done throughout my life with hindsight. I certainly wouldn't have given you the same answer in my 20s.
speaker-0: I love that. And I wonder, did you have any nerdy hobbies as sort of, ⁓ as a young person? I will just admit that basically the nerdy hobbies that I had as a child, I've now like gone back into. So like I used to be into Warhammer and now it's basically like on the FTSE 100 and like one of the most wildly profitable retail businesses in the world. I've gone back into Warhammer. So I'm one of those idiots that's basically like building and painting little models. of sort of wild mythical creatures, but do you have any weird like niche hobbies that you're into, Bob?
speaker-1: Um, I mean, obviously I've got to give a politically correct and appropriate answer. Um, so I won't go into the full detail of what I enjoy doing. But, um, I would say something that I've always enjoyed is, um, model making. Um, and, um, I think your, your, your viewers would have, would know action man as an example. So I'd always enjoy building, you know, camps, cardboard boxes, you know, getting couple boxes and creating. camps and ⁓ cutting out shapes and making camps for my brothers and I and the like. And I think that's something that's just followed through my whole life in terms of creating environments and immersing yourself in imaginative space, I think is something I enjoy. And so it's something I do. Personally, in terms of I love living in interesting places. We live in an 1800s school now. And at the same time, that's sort of something I've done through my professional life, creating spaces that reflect the brands that I've been working with.
speaker-0: And it's so interesting when you see some of those pioneers in terms of architecture and spatial design and how a lot of them grew up through those sort of low fidelity prototyping type approaches that you discussed. I mean, I'm thinking about brands like IDEO, for example, out on the West Coast, they were going like, how do we just use these cardboard boxes to like look at what space might look like or how people might move through a space and... I was just chatting with you in the pre chat yesterday when we spoke, because you had featured in Monocle magazine, but not just in Monocle magazine, but in like a beautifully hard bound book of like the best ever retail spaces in the world. Like, just tell us quickly, Bob, how did that come about? How did you end up getting featured in that? ⁓
speaker-1: I think something that happens as you go through your professional life ⁓ is you just get to know lots of people. And like I said, I love to meet people, love to do things like this. And as a result, people end up doing interesting things in interesting places. So ⁓ I've got to admit, I can't even remember how that came about. But my sort of journey into that physical space, and I think... Your viewers that have maybe followed me on LinkedIn would know that I, although I've been a global head of retail for quite a lot of years, I actually really hate retail. ⁓ but, yeah, I really hate retail, but what I, my interest has really come about from a product design perspective. When that product's put in front of a consumer, how do you then get that consumer to interact with your product? And what are the triggers and levers that you can use?
speaker-0: Where?
speaker-1: to get that human being to do something. that consumer centric human centric perspective is something that I really enjoy. And then you apply that to the different brands. So I really start my sort of journey in that sort of retail brand space by an interest in who are you trying to sell to? And probably better put who are you trying to get emotionally engaged with your brand? ⁓ and what are the triggers that you need to, sort of put into your engagement and physical space, ⁓ shops again, shops is a very clunky, very clunky basic word. ⁓ but that, that's where my level of interest comes from. mean, it's, can create incredible spaces that, that are maybe awesome for the brands, but absolutely terrible for sales. And you can do something that's great for sales and terrible for the brand. So I, I like to live at that intersection of, of, of sort of. brand creative and commercially ⁓ building. so emotion led transaction follows.
speaker-0: And we were chatting yesterday that you've just sort of relatively recently taken up ⁓ a newish role and you're trying to thread a needle for, you know, a very well known sort of brand in the outdoor space and trying to sort of reboot, reenergize, lift up. And I wonder if you would just tell us a little bit about where you've now landed, Bob, and kind of how you see the challenge there.
speaker-1: Yeah, I so I'm ⁓ now working with Pentland brands ⁓ with specifically as a kickoff. I'm working across all the brands, but kicking off with the Burkhouse brand. ⁓ And in very typical fashion. ⁓ Yeah, being up in the northeast after some, yeah, it's a chunk of time in Asia, close to my mom and dad trying to trying to be a good son, make up for all those years overseas. ⁓ But It looked like we were going to be heading back overseas again, which made Sunday lunches with my mom and dad, especially my mom, actually quite, quite uncomfortable as she, yeah, we, we like being all in the same place, but, ⁓ yeah, quite randomly. found myself, I was in Newcastle doing some work with, ⁓ a well-known brand. and I was on Dean street and got a phone call, ⁓ from people that were, ⁓ talking with regards to Bentley brands. ⁓ and specifically Burke house. ⁓ but I was actually outside, ⁓ JD, ⁓ mountain center, which is where Burke house originated. So it was really, ⁓ I suppose quite typical of how things have happened in my life where I get her. What I thought was a random common, you random phone call, about joining an organization with an incredible brand. And I was outside to literally outside sort of ground zero for
speaker-0: chances.
speaker-1: I know. mean, it's pretty crazy, but for me, that was more than enough reason where I should turn around and go, however this has come about, this is obviously a sign that I should be doing something here. yeah, I've been with the great people of Pentland Brands now for about 10 months, I think it is, but focused very much on the Burkhouse brand and Boy, oh boy, I mean, what an incredible brand, you know, founded in 1966, you know, innovated in so many, so many different ways. Um, and just, you know, so ripe for building that, that future with the awesome team led by, um, Charlie Pym, um, and Adam, or heads up, um, marketing, but great, great people, fantastic team, and really excited to be contributing to that.
speaker-0: And just tell us a little bit more about the essence of the Berghaus brand. Like, what is it? What does it stand for? I mean, I declared an interest that when I was away in South America in 1996, God, I had hair back then, Bob, had dreams, I had ambitions, but I also had a ⁓ Berghaus backpack, which was my first interaction with the brand. And I remember the... the feel of the cordura, the straps, just the sheer load carrying ability of that thing. mean, God, was like impossible to knock down. was like sort of rocky Balboa of backpacks. But tell us like a bit about the DNA of the brand and what it means to you and to the wider public, Bob.
speaker-1: Sure, I think it's interesting just to segue out of how you've just described the brand. I think it's really, really important that ⁓ whichever brand, whatever you're working on, it... Yeah, it's not transactional. It's not about selling product. That's the outcome. Yeah. What we do is, is we enable people to create memories and, the products that we create and the products that people engage with us and purchase from us, the products that they take along on those journeys and become part of their memory, just in the way you've described it. ⁓ but it was really interesting whenever I've started with, ⁓ a global brand, the first thing I do is always ask, you know, We've got two ears, two eyes for a reason, one mouth for another reason. So looking and listening is really, really important. And what's really quite funny with this is that my starting point was what, you know, where's Burkhouse from? And I would ask anyone, where's Burkhouse from? And yeah, your viewers, ⁓ a lot of them may well know where Burkhouse is from, but ⁓ A lot of times people turn around and go, oh, well, yeah, it must be a German brand or Swiss brand or something. But it's like, no, know, 19, 1966, Dean Street, Newcastle, Burkhouse is a Geordie brand. It's a Northeastern brand. And I just thought that was so interesting. Yeah, there's so much innovation come from the north of England, you know, industrial revolution and everything else. But, that's, that's, that's where Burkhouse originates from. ⁓ I can only start to imagine why a couple of people in the northeast of England decided to give it a very sort of German sounding name. ⁓
speaker-0: Cool. It sounds really cool and it sounds really expensive. It's a bit like, you know, we were talking about watches before that, know, Hans Wilsdorf who founded Rolex, you he was like Wilsdorf and sons. And then he was like, well, maybe it sound a bit cooler if we came up with Rolex. ⁓ And actually maybe it's the same. Maybe it's like, we don't call it this name, we call it this name. And who knew that the name you call a business was so important,
speaker-1: No, I think that's a great point and I think it's something where... ⁓ anyone involved in business and brands, you know, have to look at the life cycle of that brand. And there's a time when a brand still has its founders around. There's a time when a brand can become more corporate and lose its way in terms of the original founders intent. So I think it's really important. Yeah. And the roles I play is to come in and almost have for my own benefit. When I start. a ⁓ level set. What is this brand about? Where does it come from? What does it mean? What's the journey it's been on? Where is it now? And what can that mean for the future? But I think what's really important is that we have within Pentland brands some incredible properties, Burkhouse being one of them. But if you then start to sort of use that point of truth ⁓ as a way of making sure that you're true to your DNA. ⁓ Then it starts to unlock so many things that enrich its DNA, enrich its worth to potential consumers and people that would want to engage with that brand. think where it gets ⁓ tricky at times is if you aren't true to who you are, your DNA and what you stand for, ⁓ you start to lose your way and that sort of, you know, that red thread that should keep you true or that Northern star, if you will. So really exciting. mean, again, I look at it and such shuts rich DNA, great people, great product design. Yeah, it's really there to happen and it's absolute honor and privilege to be part of that team.
speaker-0: So where you're sitting right now, Bob, I mean, obviously not necessarily, metaphorically than perhaps precisely where you're sitting right now, but what do you see as like the sort of key, because obviously we talk on this podcast about a decision that changed everything. And there you were standing outside the birthplace of this brand, being pitched this opportunity to help, let's say relaunch, reinvigorate, reboot this brand. What do you now see as like the sort of the key challenges that you're actually facing with all that excitement there? Like what are the biggest jobs to be done in terms of like actually making this promise into a reality? Bob, if that makes sense.
speaker-1: Yeah does and obviously I can't give the whole game away of what we're up to.
speaker-0: You get it, but any sort of juicy morsels that you can share would be great for the audience.
speaker-1: Yeah, I what's I think the top line and something that again, has been a constant through my professional life is really, you've got to take a view on your brand and how you go to market in a way that makes sense for the consumer at a time and place that makes sense for the consumer. And you can't do that if you have one or two ways of going to interact with those consumers. You look at online businesses, native online businesses ⁓ that now have physical stores and there can be lots of different reasons for that. Or you look at ⁓ stores, traditional stores that go into that digital space. But the reality is that any brand needs a multifaceted ⁓ DTC, omni-channel, all sorts of different names you can give it. But we need to meet consumers at a time and a place. And in a way that makes sense for them through 24 hours and 365 days of their life. ⁓ and what I've seen in the past is that, ⁓ brands can sometimes get a bit too preoccupied with wholesale or a bit preoccupied with their own retail or preoccupied with, ⁓ e-commerce. And the reality is you need that balanced approach. And today, more so than ever, it is about maximizing each of those channels and understanding how those consumers want to interact with you in those channels and making sure that you're enriching that interaction.
speaker-0: And it's something that's come up in some of the podcasts ⁓ that I've already recorded, but this idea of, and maybe we covered it as well in our pre-chat, I don't remember, forgive me, but this kind of idea about how do brands stay true to their story as they grow? Sometimes as things start to grow, you get these speed wobbles. Another guest had actually described it. businesses become more corporate than more of a storytelling sales vehicle. And I guess it's how one sort of navigates through that upward trajectory while also like sort of differentiating yourself in a market that's been through, and a sector that's been through a really tough time post pandemic. We thought the glory years were gonna last forever and then suddenly it's like, wow, it's been really, really different. So it's not as if the field of play as it were is completely clear either. I feel like it's a very complicated environment in which to operate, know, tariffs, supply chain disruptions, D2C competitors, new entrants. I'd love to just hear your thoughts on how one sort of navigates through that with skill and guile. And maybe you just say like, well, that's 40 years of working in the industry, Bob, and then I'll just shut the hell up.
speaker-1: It's to give some perspective, I think that. What I see and find really interesting is that you have founders of brands ⁓ that are really driven. They've got an insight, they've got a unique product, they've got this entry point. And over time, more people come on board to that organization or it becomes an organization, becomes a corporation. And sometimes that sort of North Star, as I said earlier, that vision gets sort of muddied or gets lost. And then... The corporation, let's say that a lot of these places can become start, know, leadership comes in from other other sectors and they start to have views and opinions about things. And I, and I've seen it multiple times is that you see an incredible brand that then for some and multiple reasons can start thinking of itself in a different way or cloaking itself in wanting to be. Like it's competitor, as opposed to being true to who it is and why it came about in its first instance. So I think, ⁓ yeah, that's really important to always. Ground yourself in where do we come from? Why do we, why, why did, why were we originated? What was our unique point of difference? And what is the core of our DNA? Because, you know, that should be again, the red line, the North star running through the brand. ⁓ and yeah, it's not about. Yeah, living in the past, it's about having that foundation and using that as a way of looking forward. But yeah, again, time and time again, you get ⁓ professional ⁓ management coming in that aren't necessarily brand people. And again, you can have a great looking P &L, which is absolutely destroying a brand. ⁓ And you can have a great brand that has... ⁓ a non-sustaining piano. So again, you've always got to get that balance, but I think it's really important to lead with your unique point of view, your unique point of difference, and to make it easy for people to engage and be part of your journey and to create those memories that you referenced earlier on.
speaker-0: Well, it's so interesting. just had a quick furkel in my drawers for the non British listeners among us. That just means looking in a drawer. It doesn't mean anything more sinister. And I found this picture of my friend, Karen here. And this is us actually. I'm not actually featured in the picture. I'll put this up on the show notes. But this is actually in the Andes in 1996. As I said, I had a lot more hair in those days. This is not actually me. This is Karen. But again, it's like, this is why I want to see Burghaus. succeed because it's like, you know, I had that such formative experience. I we walked for four days carrying like 45, 50 kilos on our back. felt like a human sort of pit pony, Bob. ⁓ You know, it was absolutely horrific. I remember little of the walk, but I remember the relief I felt as I sort of took this enormous backpack off my back. But, you know, the memories I made on that trip, you know, traveling with British kids traveling with Chilean and Argentinian kids, know, just opened my eyes to, you know, just this totally different world. And that's when I think about Burkhouse, you know, I think about that. I mentioned to you yesterday when we chatted, you know, I think about Chris Bonington as well. Like it's, you know, and maybe the Gallagher brothers, but I can't remember which Gallagher brother it is. ⁓ Sorry, Nolan Liam. And there's a third one as well, isn't it? Who we never hear about. Like, he's just like, we never talk about the third one. He's like Bruno from... ⁓ from Encanto, we just don't talk about him. ⁓ But this is kind of why I think it's so fascinating these brands and just before I sort of ask you to sort of name check some of the brands that you think have been doing reboots really well, I'll give you a chance to just sort of turn the mental cogs, but I've been really excited to see some of the reinvention and sort of new design language from Antler in terms of their luggage and. them mining their archives and then you look and feel and you know, you really feel like they're starting to like lean back into that brand. It not just being a utility item that you buy in like a generic luggage store on a high street. It's actually like, it's got a really great e-com offer. It's got an offer that you would want to buy as an impulse purchase at an airport. It's like, they're really mining that stuff. And I've actually bought some of their luggage and it's absolutely wonderful. And it's just like, I wonder, what brands and it doesn't just have to be an outdoor apparel, but like, who do you think is crushing it, Bob? It's always fascinating to hear recommendations and thoughts.
speaker-1: think it's, mean, one I would shout out is another Northeast brand, Barber in South Shields. Again, great group of people doing some incredible things. again, born... Born in the northeast of England from a real need in the same way, know, Berghaus. Yeah, what is it they say? Everything's better up north except the weather and it tends to be pretty, I won't use the language, but.
speaker-0: Please use the language is fine. It's got an E on after the podcast. Yes. So you can say fucking terrible or not.
speaker-1: I've never used the F word, everything's better. But yeah, but Barbara, think doing some really interesting things, some great collabs, you collabs, taking something that's very functional and making it very relevant. And again, I hate the word fashionable. think anyone that's been around for a while hates the word fashion because you can be in fashion out of fashion very quick. So You want to ride that fashion wave, but make sure you're not dependent on it. But I just wanted to come back to sort of the comments you were making here when you sort of said about your trip and, and yeah, Burke house and everything. think something that I found through my career, the brands I've worked with is that at my starting point with these brands, when I've said to my sons or family or friends, ⁓ I'm going to, you know, I'm now working with, yeah, XYZ brands. They tend to turn around and go, ⁓ I remember that brand. had those that brand. It's amazing the memories that people have. But what's interesting, people talk about the brands in the past tense. And I think that's very powerful and something that we could use. And I'll talk about the relevance of memory and product and how that is something that was really powerful today. But that's what I love. Those are the brands I love to work for because if People are so passionate about a brand, you know, the passion that you talk about that Burkhouse backpack, then there's a passion to be ignited for younger consumers, users here today and in the future. But also today, sustainability really, really important. Yeah, we see a lot of negativity about fast fashion and we, like ⁓ many organizations, are very conscious about what we consume and how we use things. ⁓ And a key part of what we do is what we call repair house where product Berghaus product has this lifetime guarantee. Hopefully I've quoted that right. ⁓ So maybe we'll just double check that in the notes below before I cost the brand a fortune. But you can send the products back and I've recently seen some jackets and things from the nineties at the repair house. that maybe need a zip stitching back in or a pocket patching or something, which they'll do. ⁓ Only if fabrics totally perished or beyond repair, will they then come to some arrangement with the person that provided that product for repair. But with those products, come stories. And there's been some great stories with the products that a father, a grandfather that always had his Berghaus jacket for walking the dog. year in year out, yeah, come rain or shine, yeah, passes away. And, you know, his family then send the jacket back to Berghausen and sort of say, Hey, you know, this, this, this is our father, our grandfather, our, my husband. Can you do something meaningful? It's, this isn't something we just want to trash. So there's been numerous instances where the guys that repair, see the repair and give it a new lease of life or if deconstructed it and then manufactured iPhone pouches or something that can then be shared through the family as a memento of that sort of relative that's passed on. So really exciting to see that, again, Barbara have done some great things in that sort of repair space, the rewaxing space. ⁓ Yeah, really, really, really incredible brand. But I don't want to seem sort of like old school, but I do tend to like brands. that have been around for a while, had some challenges. Obviously, I'm a huge fan of Adidas, New Balance, Clark's incredible history. But but also, you know, people like Burberry, great people at Burberry had numerous challenges through the life. But when you look at how Burberry started, the functionality of those jackets and where they are now, incredible, incredible.
speaker-0: Yeah and like great design never goes out of fashion, does it? know, it's, whether it's a Leatherman multi-tool, whether it's a Berghaus backpack, whether it's a Fjällriven jacket, whether it's a Tudor watch, whatever it is, those are design class. Whether it's even an iPhone or even an Xbox controller, know, but people's, in terms of product design, I mean, that is an absolute paragon. There's a reason it's at the ⁓ Smithsonian. in design museum in New York, because basically it is an absolute paragon of industrial design and product design. it's, people have thought about the ergonomics and they've gone, wow, we've really understood how the human hand works and how people wanna be gaming for five, six, 10 hours. I mean, probably you need to get up from your desk and do other things, get outdoors, see your family, maybe eat a meal, eat a full healthy nutritious meal, public service announcement over Bob. But. Yeah, it's great hearing those things and you know for me with Barbara, you know, I My dad is now dead, but I always remember you know for some of my earliest memories growing up in the countryside You know, like I mentioned to you yesterday was in a little village in in Kent, you know We had one we had one pub. We had one bus a week. We had a mobile library that came once a month I mean, it was pretty basic ⁓ But I always remember my dad in barber jackets and it's no surprise that when I went to buy a jacket The first thing I bought was a B Dale barber, you know, because it reminded me of him and I put it on and people say to me, ⁓ my God, you look like your dad. And so it's, it is those stories. It's like, fuck, do I look that old? Just fun side note for listeners. Yesterday our washing machine broke down and the repair guys came to ⁓ fix it and they found a hairband. had got stuck in the sort of wastewater sort of gubbins at the bottom. First thing my wife saw when she saw that it was a hairband pulled out, she just goes, well, at least we didn't, no, it wasn't you who did it, Patrick. ⁓ Listeners, I am bald. So that was the coldest thing my wife said to me yesterday. Big love to Helen, of course, but yeah.
speaker-1: You haven't got a ponytail at the back like me.
speaker-0: It's not all business at the front and sort of party at the back. Well, no, sadly not. It's when you when your hair starts to look like a field of wheat, it's time to basically cut it off, isn't it? But I can't believe half an hour has just passed. Wow. It's gone quickly. How are you doing?
speaker-1: Yeah, really good. I've really enjoyed the conversation and I'm looking forward to seeing the feedback you get and the new people that I can meet and interact as a result of our conversation today.
speaker-0: Definitely, well, as always, I'd like to hand over the sort of microphone, the podium to each guest at the end of the interview. And this really is just a chance to sort of share anything that's in your head or in your heart or on your docket at work. So yeah, over to you, Bob, just before we wrap up.
speaker-1: Yeah, it makes it feel like I should say something really deep and meaningful and sort of, you know, I'm here to change the world and world peace and love. We obviously live in strange times. I suppose that's just life. Yeah, life is, I think, always strange in some shape or form. But I suppose I would sort of say from ⁓ a personal level to everybody watching this just, yeah. Smile, have fun, be kind, treat others as you would want to be treated or treat people better than you would want to be treated because it always comes back. ⁓ Be friendly. But from a professional perspective, I'm super excited about what we're doing here at Pentland Brands, the suite of brands we have here. And obviously, with the work that's going on with Berkhouse, ⁓ going to be a really exciting year, our 60th anniversary. ⁓ We are hiring some really key roles here in London. ⁓ If you could then point people towards my link on LinkedIn, I'll put some of those roles there. ⁓ Love to hear from individuals out there. I'd love to work with some of the individuals out there. I know you've got some incredible people that follow you. So ⁓ I look forward to chatting to you again. World peace, smile, be friendly, happy, have fun. ⁓ And then. then drop us a line to come and join Burkhouse and ⁓ be part of our incredible journey, the outdoor brand of the future.
speaker-0: Bob, thank you so much for your time. It's been a huge pleasure to get to know you through the 15 failed podcast recordings I've tried before this successful one has finally landed. I feel like a sort of a ⁓ rocket builder trying to land the rocket sort of backwards first on one of those sort of platforms out at sea, but we did it. Yay. Virtual high five. Bob, thank you so much and thank you all for listening. I'll make sure that those ⁓ job links are in the post and also we'll chat and happy to share those with others in my network as well. So thank you so much.
