What to do when work makes you sick?

WEBVTT
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Hi, I'm psychologist and author Leona Deakin,
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and this is Leadership Journeys, where I delve
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into the minds of inspirational women to find
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out what makes them tick. Last week, we heard
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from Rebecca Oliver Mooney, or ROM. She's the
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head of commercial at the co -op and the founder
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of Raising the Glass. And she talked about how
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understanding yourself and others really is the
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key to being a great boss. This week on Leadership
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Journeys... I was working for one business. It
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was a very toxic culture. I hit a real low, one
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of the worst points when an ambulance had to
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be called because I couldn't breathe at work.
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Later I realised it was a panic attack and so
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I thought, right, this has to change. So I went
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and did a free weekend course, learnt what coaching
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was, fell in love with it, thought this is incredible,
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it's so powerful. I went and trained with a coaching
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school in London. I loved every second of it.
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Can a bad experience be the gateway to a positive
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change in your life? Hi, folks. Today, I am talking
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to Bianca Spruitt. She is the founder of Sprout
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Coaching, a company that helps tech organizations
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to improve the working experience of everyone
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while at work, while also improving their personal
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potential. Her experience as a female leader
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in tech herself. caused Bianca to retrain as
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a coach and then to launch her own successful
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coaching business. So I'm really interested to
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find out what inspired that change and why improving
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the quality of the workplace is so important
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to her. Welcome, Bianca. Hi, Leona. It's lovely
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to be here with you. It's really nice to have
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you along and thank you for welcoming us into
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your wonderful home. We are sat under this wonderful
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tree that I believe your husband put in place
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that you've decorated with spring flowers. I
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just feel like I'm in some lovely like zen mindfulness
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environment. It is a lovely sensory experience.
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Yes, for sure. I kind of want one for my own
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house now. So thank you so much. Right. So just
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tell me a little bit about Sprout Coat. So what
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are the kind of level of people that you're working
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with and what are you doing with them in your
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current business? Yeah, so it's... people who
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are working in senior leadership. And it's also
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people who are thinking about stepping into managerial
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roles and also the teams that they manage as
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well. So there's all kinds of different levels
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there, really. Yeah. And it's all about improving
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that environment. So people feel presumably higher
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levels of well -being, higher levels of confidence,
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just feeling more capable and able to do the
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things that they're there to do. Is that? Yeah,
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and feeling safe to just be themselves, because
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if they feel safe to be themselves, then they're
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going to feel safe to speak up about some new
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idea that they have or what they think we could
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do to solve a big problem. And if they don't
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feel safe, then they're much more likely to just
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sit there quietly because it feels like the better
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thing to do. So businesses are going to benefit
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as well as the individuals. Oh, lovely. Yeah.
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So a lot to do with that psychological contract
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and all that goes with that, that psychological
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safety and how people feel and whether they can
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be themselves. Yeah, so much so. So many businesses
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are missing out on some really fantastic ideas
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from their people because they just don't want
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to share them because they're worried about their
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idea being slammed down or being made to look
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stupid or just think they're not going to be
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listened to anyway. So what's the point? It just
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doesn't have to be that way. We spend so much
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time at work, so let's make that experience as
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wonderful as it can be and make people feel like
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they want to be at work because they're really
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appreciated when they're there. And then it makes
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managers and leaders lives a lot easier as well,
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because they're not having to do everything,
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come up with all the ideas because their teams
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are doing such wonderful work and coming up with
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so much themselves. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And
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this is why I was so keen to speak to you on
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the podcast, because this is a mission very close
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to my heart. I mean, I think I always aspired
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as a young psychologist to changing the organisation
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and making them better. And then I went through
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my own period of feeling quite cynical about.
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the possibility of that. And then I've come out
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the other side and realised that actually on
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an individual level, so through that individual
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coaching and team coaching like you're doing,
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you can make a huge difference, not just to that
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immediate leader and their team, but to the other
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people around them in that environment. So I
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just think it's fab what you're doing. It's great.
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There's so much out there at the moment celebrating
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women in tech and female leaders in tech and
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all of that. So what was that like as an environment?
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Was it male orientated when you went in or is
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it a little bit more balanced than that? It was.
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Yeah, it was just men when I first started. Yeah.
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And also working in the car industry, that was
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mostly men as well. So it was particularly working
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in the car industry and going around and setting
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up the network cables and just doing all of the
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very physical things around the building as well
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as sitting at my desk. And yeah, it would be
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normal to have posters of like topless women
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on the walls and things like that. So it was
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very different to how it is now. I don't think
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I ever felt held back. by being a woman but I'd
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say looking back I can see that yeah some of
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these situations some of these environments were
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not great for making me feel confident and so
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they probably did contribute to me maybe not
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being as confident not speaking up in certain
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situations but at the time I didn't really feel
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that if that makes sense yeah it makes sense
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in this sense of walking past those pictures
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of topless women and not giving it a second thought
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which I can relate to that back in my younger
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years because you it was just part and parcel
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of how the world was then and now in hindsight
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we feel that's quite jarring don't we but yeah
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when you were saying that it made you feel where
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in hindsight maybe it affected your confidence
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what were the kinds of things that were impacting
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on your confidence do you know when you look
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back I think it was just things like seeing images
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like that. If I had to go under a desk to sort
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out some wiring, having some comments about my
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bum, you know, those kind of things just make
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you think, well, I don't I need to go and do
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that job, but I don't want to do that job because
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I know that I'm going to get someone making comments
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about me and my body. And that didn't feel very
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comfortable. So then you tried to. get out of
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doing certain types of work, I guess, which may
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have made me look as though I didn't want to
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do certain parts of the job at times. And also
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maybe not being taken as seriously when I had
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something to say. And then that starts making
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you think that maybe what you have to say isn't
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that serious or isn't that important. So you
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stop. stop speaking as much about your ideas
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which then makes you stop having as many ideas
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because you're kind of flattening all that down.
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Yeah and it's like it sounds like it's making
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you self -conscious in that way of your thinking
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about physically what am I doing and how is it
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looking but also What am I saying? How is it
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landing? Or I've said something and it wasn't
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listened to or it was overruled. And so it couldn't
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have been a good idea. And you're almost, it
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sounds to me like it's almost spending too much
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time thinking inwardly about yourself than actually
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looking externally at whatever the work is that's
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going on and just getting stuck in. And I imagine
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that's something that so many people, not just
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women, but people who have difference. whether
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it be their ethnicity or whether it be their
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neurodiversity or whether it be in any other
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form of physical appearance or capacity, that
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idea of being different and making you a bit
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more vulnerable and a bit more self -conscious
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going on. Yeah, definitely. And that's one of
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the biggest things that has changed from when
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I was younger to how I am now. realizing that
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actually those differences, the things that are
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different about you can hold you back, but they
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can also propel you forward. They can be your
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biggest asset because if you have a different
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background or you're different from the group
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in some way, that means you're going to have
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a different view on what's going on in the workplace.
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You're going to come up with different ideas
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because of all of the different experiences you've
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been through in life. They all affect how you
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think. And the more differently you think, the
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more innovative your ideas. And yeah, we're just
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missing out if we don't support people in that
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way to really be themselves and embrace those
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differences. Yes. And the world's changed, I
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think, in relation to that. Whether it's enacted
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as well as it could be in our organisations is
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questionable, but certainly there's an awareness
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that diversity of thought, diversity of background,
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diversity of input is... valuable for creativity
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solving problems making good decisions you know
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I think intellectually that's more much better
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understood than it was maybe you know back when
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you were working in that those first companies
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if I usually ask this at the end but I'm really
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interested if you could go back and tell that
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younger self in that environment to do something
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differently would you give her any tips I think
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it would be about doing everything you can to
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embrace who you are and be who you are and not
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feel as though you need to act as though you
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know it all or act as though you fit in and that
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you like the things the other people like or
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that you want, you know, you have the same kind
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of thoughts because actually standing out can
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be good. And yet doesn't come. Easily to many
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people. And this is maybe when we look at personality
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differences, there's five big personality factors.
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And one of them is agreeableness. So and this
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is a bit like a normal distribution curve. So
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I always think of it as it's like we're standing
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on a bridge over a river. So you'll get some
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people who are very highly agreeable. So they
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will never, ever disagree with anybody ever.
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And then you get the people on the other riverbank
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who are so independent minded. They're really
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contrary. They don't mind. a friend to win the
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argument if they're right they're right yeah
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but then most of us are standing on the bridge
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aren't we and we're a bit like oh like sometimes
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I speak my mind and sometimes I tell people and
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other times it's not appropriate or I don't feel
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comfortable so it's that sliding scale of how
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independent versus group orientated am I prepared
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to be and I suppose that's what you're talking
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about being a bit more independent and a bit
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more comfortable in your own skin Yeah, I think
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so. And I think sometimes that is an outward
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thing. But I think also sometimes it's feeling
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comfortable in your own skin, but you might still
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make a decision of, actually, I don't want to
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enter into this argument. It's not important
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enough for me. So you still feel true to yourself
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because you're acknowledging yourself, how you
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feel and what you believe, but that it's a conscious
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decision to do something different. That's a
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better place to be than just not having that
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awareness and just thinking. they're probably
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right you know or I better not disagree and not
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really being aware of your own feelings and how
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how easy do you think it is to be that way when
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you're younger is that a maturity thing where
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you grow into your own confidence or I think
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for me it definitely was and for most people
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I think it definitely is but I think that the
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more we talk about this kind of thing and have
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these conversations and that the younger people
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listening, because I don't think I heard conversations
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like this or heard anything about, you know,
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being your authentic self when I was younger.
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That's not the kind of conversations we were
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having and there weren't podcasts to listen to
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then either. I'm hoping that that will make a
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difference to make it easier for people when
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they're younger. But for me, it was definitely
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a maturity thing. Yeah, feeling comfortable in
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your own skin. But I think you're right. And
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that's that whole the world is changing around
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us. And that helps us to have a different perspective,
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doesn't it? And you hope that that will plant
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that seed a little bit earlier, that it's OK
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to be different and to embrace it and celebrate
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it. Yeah, I do hope so. Yeah. So you got to the
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point where you were. working at a senior level
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of leadership within these tech environments.
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And so what changed there then? Why did you decide
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to go off and do your own business? Was that
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something you just always aspired to do or did
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something trigger that? Well, I know what it
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was. I was working for one business and the environment
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was not great. It was a very toxic culture. I
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was miserable and I thought that I could... overcome
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it and just keep going. And I did for too many
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years and I just started feeling worse and worse
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and worse. And I was feeling as though my main
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job was to protect my team from the environment
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and from the culture. And that was my main focus
00:13:56.419 --> 00:13:59.059
and all of my energy went there and anything
00:13:59.059 --> 00:14:01.279
else. I didn't really have that much energy for
00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:03.620
anything else really. I did a great job. I was
00:14:03.620 --> 00:14:06.889
still moving my way up in my career. But I was
00:14:06.889 --> 00:14:09.529
feeling miserable. I was feeling miserable for
00:14:09.529 --> 00:14:11.909
me and when I saw how other people were being
00:14:11.909 --> 00:14:17.470
treated as well. So I got to a point where I
00:14:17.470 --> 00:14:19.909
thought I have to do something different. I hit
00:14:19.909 --> 00:14:22.750
a real low, one of the worst points when an ambulance
00:14:22.750 --> 00:14:24.370
had to be called because I couldn't breathe at
00:14:24.370 --> 00:14:26.950
work. I was just, I left work and I just couldn't
00:14:26.950 --> 00:14:28.570
get any breath and I couldn't understand why.
00:14:29.169 --> 00:14:32.679
Later I realised it was... anxiety it was it
00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.980
was a panic attack and coupled with having had
00:14:35.980 --> 00:14:38.080
a chest infection for a while but really feeling
00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:40.580
like I couldn't take the time off to recover
00:14:40.580 --> 00:14:46.179
so I thought right this has to change I really
00:14:46.179 --> 00:14:48.769
really want to make sure that Whatever I do,
00:14:48.809 --> 00:14:51.750
it's helping other people to either not have
00:14:51.750 --> 00:14:54.509
to feel the way I'm feeling or if they are feeling
00:14:54.509 --> 00:14:57.049
that way, to support them through it and just
00:14:57.049 --> 00:15:00.190
to do something about this problem that I'm experiencing
00:15:00.190 --> 00:15:02.389
because I could see a lot of other people going
00:15:02.389 --> 00:15:05.570
through the same thing. So I thought, OK, well,
00:15:05.669 --> 00:15:08.750
maybe I want to be a counsellor or maybe I want
00:15:08.750 --> 00:15:11.649
to be a coach, but I didn't really know what...
00:15:11.820 --> 00:15:14.379
the difference was and what a coach was so I
00:15:14.379 --> 00:15:16.539
went and did a free weekend course learned what
00:15:16.539 --> 00:15:18.860
coaching was fell in love with it thought this
00:15:18.860 --> 00:15:22.100
is incredible it's so powerful and I thought
00:15:22.100 --> 00:15:24.159
I want to I want to learn some more about this
00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:26.299
I probably still wasn't at that point fully thinking
00:15:26.299 --> 00:15:29.399
I can do this as a full -time job in my own business
00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:32.220
but I thought this is a this is a route to doing
00:15:32.220 --> 00:15:34.159
something more positive and that's what I needed
00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:38.940
so I went and trained with a coaching school
00:15:38.940 --> 00:15:41.870
in London. which meant travelling down from Yorkshire
00:15:41.870 --> 00:15:44.610
to London at weekends. And it was a big undertaking,
00:15:44.909 --> 00:15:48.370
but I loved every second of it. It was absolutely
00:15:48.370 --> 00:15:51.649
brilliant. I was learning a lot about myself
00:15:51.649 --> 00:15:54.809
and a lot about how to support my team. So I
00:15:54.809 --> 00:15:56.750
started using that, still working for that same
00:15:56.750 --> 00:16:00.049
business, I started using that with my team and
00:16:00.049 --> 00:16:04.470
realising that, wow, I felt really overloaded
00:16:04.470 --> 00:16:06.850
with work before. But when I started coaching
00:16:06.850 --> 00:16:10.190
my team and I stopped... just giving them all
00:16:10.190 --> 00:16:12.269
the answers when there was a problem and instead
00:16:12.269 --> 00:16:14.850
coach them through it and ask them questions
00:16:14.850 --> 00:16:17.610
about, have you seen this before? And what ideas
00:16:17.610 --> 00:16:19.730
have you come up with? And what are the risks
00:16:19.730 --> 00:16:22.009
associated with this if it continues? And, you
00:16:22.009 --> 00:16:23.549
know, all of those kind of coaching questions.
00:16:24.750 --> 00:16:29.269
And they started coming up with solutions and
00:16:29.269 --> 00:16:32.169
ideas themselves. And yeah, everything just got
00:16:32.169 --> 00:16:35.129
loads better from the point of view of how I
00:16:35.129 --> 00:16:38.789
was running my team. And I got so much. out of
00:16:38.789 --> 00:16:42.110
seeing people develop it was just fascinating
00:16:42.110 --> 00:16:48.470
and made me feel wonderful but the culture and
00:16:48.470 --> 00:16:52.009
environment was still horrendous so i ended up
00:16:52.009 --> 00:16:54.909
leaving there i ended up um Someone else who'd
00:16:54.909 --> 00:16:56.850
left because they were miserable contacted me
00:16:56.850 --> 00:16:58.649
and said, hey, where I've moved to is really
00:16:58.649 --> 00:17:00.789
good. And they're looking for someone who does
00:17:00.789 --> 00:17:03.809
what you do. Because I always ended up going
00:17:03.809 --> 00:17:06.390
into businesses to set up functions and teams
00:17:06.390 --> 00:17:08.289
that didn't exist before. So setting everything
00:17:08.289 --> 00:17:12.269
up from scratch. And this other business needed
00:17:12.269 --> 00:17:15.730
that. So I went in and applied for the job. I
00:17:15.730 --> 00:17:19.289
got it. And I left that toxic environment. So
00:17:19.289 --> 00:17:23.170
that was a very good move. I just couldn't believe
00:17:23.170 --> 00:17:27.549
how, yeah, how much lighter I felt. Yes. And
00:17:27.549 --> 00:17:31.190
the impact that that place had had on you. It
00:17:31.190 --> 00:17:34.809
was quite fascinating watching you describe that
00:17:34.809 --> 00:17:37.170
experience, Bianca, because obviously it started
00:17:37.170 --> 00:17:39.849
out with the description of a very toxic workplace
00:17:39.849 --> 00:17:43.809
and a culture that made you physically ill. And
00:17:43.809 --> 00:17:45.710
then you started talking about the coaching and
00:17:45.710 --> 00:17:48.569
your face completely lit up. And it's really
00:17:48.569 --> 00:17:51.369
different to how you were talking about going
00:17:51.369 --> 00:17:53.549
into IT, you know, back in the day or did a bit
00:17:53.549 --> 00:17:54.849
of computing. So I went off to do a computer
00:17:54.849 --> 00:17:57.710
degree and that was all very practical and pragmatic
00:17:57.710 --> 00:18:00.269
and sensible, you know. But there wasn't really
00:18:00.269 --> 00:18:04.049
any heart in it. Watching you describe the coaching
00:18:04.049 --> 00:18:07.769
and how. you just fell in love with it. You use
00:18:07.769 --> 00:18:10.289
that word, I fell in love with it. It's just
00:18:10.289 --> 00:18:11.890
wonderful, isn't it? Because I think that's such
00:18:11.890 --> 00:18:16.009
a massive message for younger women is where
00:18:16.009 --> 00:18:19.130
are you putting your energy? And we can spend
00:18:19.130 --> 00:18:23.210
so many years investing so much hard work, particularly
00:18:23.210 --> 00:18:25.509
if you're a conscientious, ambitious person,
00:18:25.589 --> 00:18:31.250
into a field or an environment that's okay. Yeah.
00:18:31.309 --> 00:18:36.900
But it isn't feeding that real. love or or feeding
00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:40.619
your soul in in some way this clearly does when
00:18:40.619 --> 00:18:42.940
you learned about coaching how did you shield
00:18:42.940 --> 00:18:45.640
them by using coaching from what was going on
00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:49.519
in that bigger environment would you say it was
00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:53.400
making sure that my team had a safe space to
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:56.920
express themselves being very open and curious
00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:01.220
about their experiences so that if they weren't
00:19:01.220 --> 00:19:03.799
happy with how they're being treated for example
00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:06.980
then they had a safe space where they could talk
00:19:06.980 --> 00:19:10.359
about that and express that um and i could offer
00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:13.119
them support or find out from them what support
00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:16.539
they needed and helping people think through
00:19:16.539 --> 00:19:22.980
options as well um and okay well what is within
00:19:22.980 --> 00:19:26.039
your control again and helping them to discover
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.640
this there's some things that you you're never
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.700
going to be able to control they're out of your
00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:33.259
control but maybe you can influence certain things
00:19:33.259 --> 00:19:35.359
and and helping them to figure out what those
00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.079
things are that they could influence and making
00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:42.460
a plan with them for that um and then also making
00:19:42.460 --> 00:19:44.440
it clear that yeah they do have options they
00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:46.740
don't have to stay here I mean I didn't have
00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:49.220
those conversations say maybe you should leave
00:19:49.220 --> 00:19:51.559
but it's more okay well let's look at what your
00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:54.019
options are what what could you do in this situation
00:19:54.019 --> 00:19:55.920
and how about if it doesn't change what's that
00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:59.549
going to mean for you and helping them to explore
00:19:59.549 --> 00:20:04.309
their own feelings. So it was a lot of listening.
00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:08.400
being really open, being very supportive and
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.740
listening to their experiences and not assuming
00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:13.559
that because I'm very stressed about something,
00:20:13.619 --> 00:20:15.640
that means that they necessarily are because
00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:17.519
we all experience things in different ways as
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:20.240
well. So it could be that they haven't even noticed
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:22.920
a certain thing I've noticed. So it was being
00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.559
careful not to point things out and just to find
00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:28.279
out, OK, well, what is your experience of this
00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:32.079
situation? Genuinely empathising with their point
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:34.789
of view, whatever that may be. there might be
00:20:34.789 --> 00:20:36.589
like you say commonalities and how you're viewing
00:20:36.589 --> 00:20:38.450
things but there might also be differences yeah
00:20:38.450 --> 00:20:41.750
what would you say to leaders listening or managers
00:20:41.750 --> 00:20:44.029
listening that might say oh my gosh but if I
00:20:44.029 --> 00:20:46.329
go and ask people you know what's going on and
00:20:46.329 --> 00:20:48.250
what do you need they're going to expect me to
00:20:48.250 --> 00:20:51.680
have the answer What I love about coaching is
00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.079
that you don't have to have the answers. And
00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:56.299
also, if you don't ask the questions, then I
00:20:56.299 --> 00:20:58.220
think that's a lot more scary, because if you
00:20:58.220 --> 00:20:59.640
don't ask the questions, you're never going to
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:02.259
know the answers. And actually, they might continue
00:21:02.259 --> 00:21:05.480
down a path that means they leave. And if you
00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:06.839
don't want them to leave, you know, you've got
00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:09.180
a good member of staff there, then it's much
00:21:09.180 --> 00:21:12.519
better to find out what is going on. And then,
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.000
yeah, you don't need to have the answers. You
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:18.480
need to have questions. And OK, so I understand
00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:22.299
what. your experiences from what you're explaining
00:21:22.299 --> 00:21:26.180
and what would you like to happen? How do you
00:21:26.180 --> 00:21:29.900
see this resolving itself? And just asking them
00:21:29.900 --> 00:21:33.519
for the solutions, which they may not have, but
00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:35.720
if you ask them different questions and help
00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:38.500
them to explore, then usually people do have
00:21:38.500 --> 00:21:43.000
some ideas that they can try. Yeah, so you don't
00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:45.140
need to have the answers. You just need to be
00:21:45.140 --> 00:21:47.900
able to ask people and trust that they have great
00:21:47.900 --> 00:21:52.240
ideas. Yes, and that they need to be empowered
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:56.140
to do things their own way. I think one of the
00:21:56.140 --> 00:21:59.960
fascinating things about coaching is that idea
00:21:59.960 --> 00:22:02.319
that, well, first off, I think a lot of leaders
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:04.019
and managers, I'm sure you've experienced this
00:22:04.019 --> 00:22:10.000
just like I have, feel obliged to decide for
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:12.359
their teams, to solve the problems for their
00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:14.059
teams. They see that as their responsibility.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:16.319
It's what I'm here for. It's what I'm paid for.
00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:20.390
It's my job to... sort things out and look after
00:22:20.390 --> 00:22:23.549
people really it's quite parental perhaps absolutely
00:22:23.549 --> 00:22:27.829
in outlook however what we need as recipients
00:22:27.829 --> 00:22:31.049
of leadership is more facilitation than direction
00:22:31.049 --> 00:22:35.390
yeah it is and and often as well because we're
00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:37.940
managers and we're the ones with years of experience
00:22:37.940 --> 00:22:41.160
we we kind of assume that we do have the best
00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:43.859
answers sometimes when people start out with
00:22:43.859 --> 00:22:46.059
coaching they they think well I'll I'll just
00:22:46.059 --> 00:22:47.680
kind of go along with it I'll go through the
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:50.720
the process but they don't really believe that
00:22:51.099 --> 00:22:53.019
Someone else might have a better idea than them
00:22:53.019 --> 00:22:55.279
just because they're the ones with years of experience.
00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:57.579
They've seen these things before. It's reminding
00:22:57.579 --> 00:22:59.900
me, actually, of a number of years ago, I was
00:22:59.900 --> 00:23:03.140
working in an NHS trust and running some leadership
00:23:03.140 --> 00:23:06.500
development workshops. And one of them was on
00:23:06.500 --> 00:23:08.960
coaching. And there was a very senior surgeon
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:12.079
who, after this day, came to speak to me to say,
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:14.940
you know, he thought I was. very nice and you
00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:17.579
know that obviously knew my stuff but for him
00:23:17.579 --> 00:23:20.880
this was never going to be a thing you know he
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:24.720
had to be very decisive he was the most experienced
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:27.640
and specialist person in that room and sometimes
00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:31.240
you do just have to tell and we parted company
00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:35.119
agreeing to disagree and then the next morning
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:38.079
I was back in the same environment in the same
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:40.180
room just setting up for another group that were
00:23:40.180 --> 00:23:42.559
coming in and he popped his head around the door
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:44.480
and he said oh I just wanted to let you know
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:46.799
that I went out to the pub last night with an
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:49.599
old friend of mine and he said to me I need some
00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:52.220
advice and it was of a personal nature I think
00:23:52.220 --> 00:23:55.980
some marital issues he said and I thought hmm
00:23:55.980 --> 00:23:59.180
I'll try a bit of this coaching he said so I
00:23:59.180 --> 00:24:01.799
just did what what you'd suggested. I just asked
00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:03.779
questions. And do you know what he said at the
00:24:03.779 --> 00:24:06.299
end? He said, thank you. That's the best advice
00:24:06.299 --> 00:24:09.420
I've ever had. He said, and I hadn't given him
00:24:09.420 --> 00:24:13.619
any of my ideas. He said, so I'm going to give
00:24:13.619 --> 00:24:15.779
this some thought. And it was one of those lovely
00:24:15.779 --> 00:24:18.519
moments where somebody with a really big brain
00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:23.160
had gone away and to his credit thought, just
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:25.420
going to have, in a safe environment, just going
00:24:25.420 --> 00:24:27.940
to have a go and see if there's anything in it.
00:24:28.950 --> 00:24:31.109
fortunately realised that actually it's a great
00:24:31.109 --> 00:24:33.690
tactic. And I don't think you would say, or I
00:24:33.690 --> 00:24:36.009
would say, or anyone in this world of leadership
00:24:36.009 --> 00:24:39.470
development would say, coach all the time. It's
00:24:39.470 --> 00:24:42.609
a tactic, isn't it? In your kit bag, it's what
00:24:42.609 --> 00:24:45.349
you use when the situation or the individual
00:24:45.349 --> 00:24:50.910
needs that kind of... enabling empowering or
00:24:50.910 --> 00:24:55.430
emotionally supportive assistance yeah yeah I
00:24:55.430 --> 00:24:59.390
love that story so much and and I bet what happened
00:24:59.390 --> 00:25:02.470
in that situation was because when you when you
00:25:02.470 --> 00:25:05.750
just give someone advice it You feel like you're
00:25:05.750 --> 00:25:09.210
being really useful, really helpful, but you're
00:25:09.210 --> 00:25:11.829
given the advice that would work for you. It's
00:25:11.829 --> 00:25:14.069
not necessarily going to work for the other person
00:25:14.069 --> 00:25:16.190
because you're very different. You have different
00:25:16.190 --> 00:25:18.230
lives. You have different ways your brain works,
00:25:18.309 --> 00:25:21.470
different experiences at work. So by saying to
00:25:21.470 --> 00:25:23.650
someone, OK, you're experiencing this, you need
00:25:23.650 --> 00:25:26.509
to do A, B and C and then that's going to fix
00:25:26.509 --> 00:25:29.210
it. And then you might say, all right, OK, but
00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:31.690
that might that solution might not work for you
00:25:31.690 --> 00:25:34.200
because you might. find that particular advice
00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:37.599
quite difficult or triggering or you know if
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:41.119
instead you're asked questions to help you to
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:43.279
find your own solution you're going to come up
00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:46.180
with a solution that feels realistic and doable
00:25:46.180 --> 00:25:49.079
and something that is going to work for you which
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:51.680
is obviously a lot better if it's going to actually
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:54.940
work than just trying to follow someone else's
00:25:54.940 --> 00:25:58.160
advice that isn't necessarily going to give you
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:00.500
the end result that you're after. Oh my gosh,
00:26:00.500 --> 00:26:04.500
it's so much more motivational power. when it's
00:26:04.500 --> 00:26:08.660
that person's own idea yeah that too yeah let's
00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:11.299
face it none of us really like advice i mean
00:26:11.299 --> 00:26:14.700
we ask for it but we don't really want it we
00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:17.480
actually what we really want is for someone to
00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:20.619
just listen to our problem and help us work out
00:26:20.619 --> 00:26:23.839
what we are going to do We don't really enjoy
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:26.299
it. I don't think when anybody says, oh, I've
00:26:26.299 --> 00:26:28.039
had exactly the same thing and this is what you
00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:30.640
should do next, A, B and C. I think we can feel
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:33.380
a bit bristly. Yeah, because really we want to
00:26:33.380 --> 00:26:36.799
be listened to, don't we? And it's so rare to
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:40.140
have someone just listen and not jump in with
00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:42.440
advice that I think that's a real gift as well.
00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:46.779
Just having that space to talk and to think with
00:26:46.779 --> 00:26:48.839
someone not jumping in straight away, just allowing
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:51.819
that silence to be there. Yeah, it's so powerful.
00:26:51.950 --> 00:26:55.329
and it's really great with teams to get buy -in
00:26:55.329 --> 00:26:59.170
as well. If you need a new process, you need
00:26:59.170 --> 00:27:01.730
a new way of doing things, then rather than as
00:27:01.730 --> 00:27:04.009
the manager thinking, right, I better come up
00:27:04.009 --> 00:27:06.490
with this and then I'll write up this new process
00:27:06.490 --> 00:27:08.349
and I'll give it to my team and I'll train them
00:27:08.349 --> 00:27:10.609
on it. Instead, getting everyone together and
00:27:10.609 --> 00:27:13.109
saying, right, this is the end result we're after.
00:27:13.230 --> 00:27:15.589
This is where we're at now. How should we do
00:27:15.589 --> 00:27:18.710
this? And then coaching the team through coming
00:27:18.710 --> 00:27:20.950
up with a new process and they are going to follow
00:27:20.950 --> 00:27:23.599
that. process if they've come up with it and
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:26.039
they're going to keep an eye on it and make sure
00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:28.640
that it's continuously improved as well because
00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:31.740
they care about it because it's their process
00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:35.380
yes yeah and it's that so that's yeah really
00:27:35.380 --> 00:27:38.359
powerful so that discovering coaching obviously
00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:41.059
changed you it changed how you approach management
00:27:41.059 --> 00:27:43.980
and leadership it also was something you started
00:27:43.980 --> 00:27:46.500
to feel very passionate about doing more broadly
00:27:47.289 --> 00:27:49.390
But it's the impact that you saw it have on other
00:27:49.390 --> 00:27:52.549
people as well. So there was that whole thing
00:27:52.549 --> 00:27:54.750
of they were taking more ownership because you
00:27:54.750 --> 00:27:56.990
were asking more questions and giving them more
00:27:56.990 --> 00:28:00.829
airspace to make their own suggestions and have
00:28:00.829 --> 00:28:03.809
control over the direction of travel, which is...
00:28:04.029 --> 00:28:06.470
you know, really motivational for people. I can
00:28:06.470 --> 00:28:08.369
completely see why you fell in love with it and
00:28:08.369 --> 00:28:10.130
why you wanted to spend your time doing that
00:28:10.130 --> 00:28:12.769
completely. But tell us a little bit about that,
00:28:12.809 --> 00:28:15.890
because you said a little bit a while ago about,
00:28:15.890 --> 00:28:18.650
oh, I never really thought I could run my own
00:28:18.650 --> 00:28:21.450
business. Not only did you not know how to do
00:28:21.450 --> 00:28:24.309
it, you didn't think you maybe had the capacity
00:28:24.309 --> 00:28:28.130
to do it. So what changed? What made you take
00:28:28.130 --> 00:28:30.170
that step and go, well, I'm just going to do
00:28:30.170 --> 00:28:34.160
it anyway? There were a number of things. So
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:36.559
one thing is finding something I was passionate
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:39.799
enough about that I thought, I want to be doing
00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:43.420
this all the time. And seeing the impact it had,
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:45.740
thinking, wow, what if I could have this impact,
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:48.000
not just in the business I'm working in now,
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:51.440
but in lots of businesses. And that would improve
00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:54.619
so many people's lives. And that was really inspiring
00:28:54.619 --> 00:28:59.920
and motivating. Then there was also during COVID,
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:04.079
I had a little girl and that changed everything
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:09.400
as it does, changed how I saw myself, changed
00:29:09.400 --> 00:29:14.420
how I saw my life. And suddenly I had this little
00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:18.000
being and I wanted everything for her, as I still
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:23.190
do. And I wanted to create workplaces. that were
00:29:23.190 --> 00:29:25.690
really positive, wonderful places to be where
00:29:25.690 --> 00:29:29.289
people could really be themselves and reach their
00:29:29.289 --> 00:29:31.769
full potential. And I wanted that for my daughter
00:29:31.769 --> 00:29:35.190
for when she grew up. And I wanted her to see
00:29:35.190 --> 00:29:39.470
what you can do if you really want to and that
00:29:39.470 --> 00:29:42.490
you can do anything and you can at least try
00:29:42.490 --> 00:29:45.490
anything. And even if it doesn't work out, the
00:29:45.490 --> 00:29:48.230
fact that you're giving it a go is really powerful.
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:51.299
And that you don't have to be scared of giving
00:29:51.299 --> 00:29:54.640
things a go. And this gives you real meaningful
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:59.160
purpose, I imagine, isn't it? Very similar to
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:02.619
my inspiration for the podcast was to share some
00:30:02.619 --> 00:30:04.500
of the things I've learned with my daughters
00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:07.359
because I'm anticipating they probably won't
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:10.160
listen to me. that advice thing again. But I'm
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:11.759
like, when they sit and listen to you talking,
00:30:11.819 --> 00:30:13.640
they might think, oh, actually, that's really
00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:16.720
cool. I like that. So I think that when you become
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:21.420
a parent, that desire to make the world better
00:30:21.420 --> 00:30:26.180
for your children is really relatable. Yeah.
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:28.880
And I think you also have an increased awareness
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:32.180
of there is an end at some point. You have a
00:30:32.180 --> 00:30:34.619
certain amount of life left. Yes. And what do
00:30:34.619 --> 00:30:38.420
I want to do with this life? I think you lose
00:30:38.420 --> 00:30:41.240
a lot of freedom when you become a parent as
00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:44.339
well for wonderful reasons. But it is a fact
00:30:44.339 --> 00:30:47.599
that you can't just do whatever you want whenever
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:51.140
you want. And so time becomes a lot more precious.
00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:53.660
And do I really want to spend that time working
00:30:53.660 --> 00:30:57.140
for other people in something that's fine and
00:30:57.140 --> 00:30:59.559
I'm earning good money? Or do I want to be doing
00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:02.660
something that really lights me up and where
00:31:02.660 --> 00:31:05.710
I feel like I'm making a big impact? And, of
00:31:05.710 --> 00:31:09.890
course, that's the one that I chose. So did she
00:31:09.890 --> 00:31:12.470
make you brave, do you think, your daughter,
00:31:12.549 --> 00:31:14.710
in some sense, because she gave you something
00:31:14.710 --> 00:31:19.069
that was bigger? Yes, I think so. I mean, I've
00:31:19.069 --> 00:31:22.390
always been brave in a lot of different ways.
00:31:23.170 --> 00:31:26.549
I've travelled the world by myself for two years.
00:31:27.109 --> 00:31:29.789
That's pretty brave. Yeah, jumped out of planes
00:31:29.789 --> 00:31:34.960
three times. OK. I'm a diving instructor as well,
00:31:35.019 --> 00:31:38.599
so I dive in very small enclosed spaces underwater.
00:31:38.740 --> 00:31:41.700
So there's certain types of bravery that have
00:31:41.700 --> 00:31:44.880
always been there. I don't know if it's bravery
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:49.519
or if it's just felt like necessity. I now have
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:53.720
to do it. And yeah, I don't know. It depends
00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:56.240
on the definition of bravery, I guess, because
00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:59.619
whenever I've doubted myself, I've recognised.
00:32:00.269 --> 00:32:02.450
i've doubted i'm doubting myself and that i'm
00:32:02.450 --> 00:32:04.930
not feeling very confident and i'm wondering
00:32:04.930 --> 00:32:08.529
if it's all going to work out but then i continue
00:32:08.529 --> 00:32:11.009
and take all the steps that i need to take anyway
00:32:11.009 --> 00:32:13.890
being aware those feelings are there but just
00:32:13.890 --> 00:32:16.289
thinking well but i am just going to continue
00:32:16.289 --> 00:32:19.460
i just carry on doing the steps and then your
00:32:19.460 --> 00:32:22.440
bravery or confidence will come back again at
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:25.799
some point. You know, there's ups and downs when
00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:27.880
you have your own business. And having the capacity
00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:31.440
to calm yourself down internally, self -talk
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:33.640
yourself through that, is that something you've
00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:35.720
always had or is that something you learned?
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.819
So I started on lots of personal development
00:32:39.819 --> 00:32:44.299
and figuring out how my brain worked when I was
00:32:44.299 --> 00:32:47.859
quite young. I think it was through... I lost
00:32:47.859 --> 00:32:50.339
my mum when I was 14 and then my brother a couple
00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:54.859
of years after that. And so I went into a bit
00:32:54.859 --> 00:33:01.960
of a dark place for a good while and didn't want
00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:05.960
to get up in the mornings. And it got to a certain
00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:07.440
point where I thought, right, well, I've got
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:09.400
to get myself out of this. And I just started
00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:14.980
noticing things. that lifted me and things that
00:33:14.980 --> 00:33:17.900
brought me down just really on a very simple
00:33:17.900 --> 00:33:21.039
level of oh when I listen to this music I it
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:23.980
makes me cry more or if I listen to this other
00:33:23.980 --> 00:33:26.660
song I feel like I want to dance actually and
00:33:26.660 --> 00:33:29.359
it really it totally changes my mood when I move
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:32.299
my body more actually I feel really good afterwards
00:33:32.299 --> 00:33:36.079
even if I felt really awful to begin with and
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:39.480
just starting to notice things like this I think
00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:43.400
took me down a path of This is interesting. You
00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:45.980
know, there are definitely things that I can
00:33:45.980 --> 00:33:50.640
manipulate so that I feel certain ways and I
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:53.700
want to explore this more. And so I just played
00:33:53.700 --> 00:33:57.319
with it and just started noticing things about
00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:01.039
myself and and also starting to backtrack more.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:05.640
So if I felt not very brave or I felt. really
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:08.519
sad or I felt angry I think okay so something
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:10.940
has led me to feel like that what what was it
00:34:10.940 --> 00:34:13.860
at what point did that feeling change and just
00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:16.900
kind of going back in my mind and thinking okay
00:34:16.900 --> 00:34:19.579
what was when that thing happened interesting
00:34:19.579 --> 00:34:22.659
so when this kind of thing happens I feel like
00:34:22.659 --> 00:34:26.920
that so what can I do to change that and just
00:34:26.920 --> 00:34:31.769
yeah learning a lot just by myself, by noticing
00:34:31.769 --> 00:34:34.690
my feelings and what had led those feelings to
00:34:34.690 --> 00:34:37.409
be there. And that hadn't come from counselling
00:34:37.409 --> 00:34:40.250
or anything like that. You just noticed on your
00:34:40.250 --> 00:34:43.030
own that actually something quite powerful like
00:34:43.030 --> 00:34:46.969
music changes how I am feeling. And that insight,
00:34:47.150 --> 00:34:49.789
it sounds like that then led you down a route
00:34:49.789 --> 00:34:52.010
where you started to interrogate how you were
00:34:52.010 --> 00:34:54.989
feeling and how you were thinking. And I think
00:34:54.989 --> 00:34:56.989
this is one of the most powerful things we can
00:34:56.989 --> 00:35:01.449
learn about our own mind is that we do have more
00:35:01.449 --> 00:35:05.070
influence maybe over how we experience the world
00:35:05.070 --> 00:35:08.909
than we can assume that we do yeah yeah absolutely
00:35:08.909 --> 00:35:12.650
yeah and the and the more you start doing that
00:35:12.650 --> 00:35:16.369
interrogation the more you discover about yourself
00:35:16.369 --> 00:35:18.469
and how you work and the more you can change
00:35:18.469 --> 00:35:21.329
your situation and change your perception of
00:35:21.329 --> 00:35:25.809
things and I'm from then to now I mean Yeah,
00:35:25.829 --> 00:35:28.570
I'm now an extremely positive person. And if
00:35:28.570 --> 00:35:31.849
something happens that's not great, something
00:35:31.849 --> 00:35:34.730
that I'd prefer didn't happen, I'll always find
00:35:34.730 --> 00:35:37.409
something that I've learned from it or a positive
00:35:37.409 --> 00:35:40.190
I've gained from it or find a way to see it from
00:35:40.190 --> 00:35:43.570
a different angle. So it's not dismissing the
00:35:43.570 --> 00:35:46.010
fact that that thing has happened. You know,
00:35:46.010 --> 00:35:48.010
I can acknowledge, yeah, that's difficult. I
00:35:48.010 --> 00:35:50.750
would rather that hadn't happened. But actually,
00:35:50.929 --> 00:35:53.909
there's some positives I can get from this. And
00:35:53.909 --> 00:35:56.579
that has come from that. Those beginnings of
00:35:56.579 --> 00:36:00.480
just noticing things about myself and continuing
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:03.239
down that path and then starting to do some reading
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:06.780
and then, you know, just learning from lots of
00:36:06.780 --> 00:36:09.519
different places more about the mind and how
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:12.960
we work and and how we can change that so that.
00:36:13.420 --> 00:36:15.820
We can be in a happier place. Yeah, which all
00:36:15.820 --> 00:36:18.199
relates over back to what you're professionally
00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:21.539
doing now as a coach. Yeah. Doesn't it? And what
00:36:21.539 --> 00:36:24.360
your experience is showing really is that reality
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:26.119
of resilience, isn't it? I think I work with
00:36:26.119 --> 00:36:28.219
a lot of people who will say to me, I just wish
00:36:28.219 --> 00:36:30.380
I was more resilient. And their assumption is
00:36:30.380 --> 00:36:34.000
that this is something that you're lucky to have.
00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:36.000
It's like a personality factor. It's something
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:39.320
we're born with. However, all the research would
00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:41.559
tell us that resilience is something we develop
00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:44.489
and we develop it. In the face of adversity.
00:36:44.949 --> 00:36:47.610
And so, and you're actually describing there
00:36:47.610 --> 00:36:51.289
how you individually started to notice these
00:36:51.289 --> 00:36:53.190
things help me, these things hinder me. So I
00:36:53.190 --> 00:36:56.070
need to do more of that and less of that. And
00:36:56.070 --> 00:36:59.409
you're not denying the emotional turbulence of,
00:36:59.469 --> 00:37:01.289
well, this was a bad day or this was a sad thing.
00:37:01.949 --> 00:37:04.969
However, you are then in that very learned optimism
00:37:04.969 --> 00:37:08.010
way going, but where are the positives I can
00:37:08.010 --> 00:37:11.289
take from this? How do I put it in perspective?
00:37:12.130 --> 00:37:14.849
compared to other things I've faced in life or
00:37:14.849 --> 00:37:16.409
other things going on in the world? Or how do
00:37:16.409 --> 00:37:21.250
I really look for the learning within it and
00:37:21.250 --> 00:37:23.849
the extra insight I've gained? Or what pride
00:37:23.849 --> 00:37:27.650
can I take in how I've handled that? You know,
00:37:27.670 --> 00:37:30.030
that I kept it together and I didn't fall apart.
00:37:30.730 --> 00:37:34.590
And all of these things, like finding, like you
00:37:34.590 --> 00:37:38.090
say, those little nuggets of golden positivity
00:37:38.090 --> 00:37:42.449
within all of that drama. that might be going
00:37:42.449 --> 00:37:44.610
on I think that's a really it's like the essence
00:37:44.610 --> 00:37:47.929
of being resilient isn't it yeah yeah I've I've
00:37:47.929 --> 00:37:50.769
had some real ups and downs in my life yeah and
00:37:50.769 --> 00:37:54.989
I can see how all of the ups and the downs have
00:37:54.989 --> 00:37:58.010
led me to where I am now and I wouldn't have
00:37:58.010 --> 00:38:00.409
had the knowledge or experience that I have now
00:38:00.409 --> 00:38:04.969
if those hadn't happened so yeah it's I think
00:38:04.969 --> 00:38:08.570
a lot of it was letting myself feel the feelings
00:38:08.570 --> 00:38:13.139
but not I was i got fed up very early of being
00:38:13.139 --> 00:38:16.260
stuck in that kind of pit of despair and thinking
00:38:16.260 --> 00:38:18.559
yeah i need to be able to feel these feelings
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:21.619
but i need to have a root out as well and it
00:38:21.619 --> 00:38:23.579
makes sense that when you were saying that you
00:38:23.579 --> 00:38:27.199
were in that toxic culture and you had the panic
00:38:27.199 --> 00:38:29.519
attack and the ambulance was called and for a
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:32.300
lot of people that might just be a spiral into
00:38:33.179 --> 00:38:35.840
this is just awful, I can't escape this, I'm
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:38.780
stuck, feeling a bit helpless or feeling a bit
00:38:38.780 --> 00:38:41.539
ashamed maybe that you can't cope and all of
00:38:41.539 --> 00:38:43.699
those things make possibly even becoming depressed.
00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:47.639
Whereas you'd said your thought was, I need to
00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:49.760
get out of here and do something different with
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:53.119
my life. So even in that, at that point, that
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:56.860
resilience that you had kind of trained into
00:38:56.860 --> 00:38:59.300
your brain earlier on was coming in as a little
00:38:59.300 --> 00:39:03.590
bit of a defence in your darkest. hours wasn't
00:39:03.590 --> 00:39:07.210
it yeah yeah it was but also I'd like to make
00:39:07.210 --> 00:39:09.869
clear that it wasn't that I was miserable when
00:39:09.869 --> 00:39:12.070
I thought right now I'm gonna leave I did stay
00:39:12.070 --> 00:39:15.269
there for too long so just for anyone who's listening
00:39:15.269 --> 00:39:17.429
if you are stuck in a position like that and
00:39:17.429 --> 00:39:19.510
you feel like I've stayed here this long you
00:39:19.510 --> 00:39:22.909
know um I can't change things now you can change
00:39:22.909 --> 00:39:26.869
things it any points and not to feel ashamed
00:39:26.869 --> 00:39:29.690
of having stayed somewhere too long or stayed
00:39:29.690 --> 00:39:31.809
in a situation for too long that doesn't mean
00:39:31.809 --> 00:39:34.449
that you can't change it now because yeah it
00:39:34.449 --> 00:39:37.610
did take me too long as well but um yeah that
00:39:37.610 --> 00:39:39.769
resilience did come through it for me in the
00:39:39.769 --> 00:39:41.750
end it came through yeah no that's a really important
00:39:41.750 --> 00:39:44.269
point isn't it and i think we can like double
00:39:44.269 --> 00:39:46.610
down on these decisions you know i came here
00:39:46.610 --> 00:39:48.969
i was i've got a job to do i'm going to see it
00:39:48.969 --> 00:39:52.429
through and and we start to feel compelled to
00:39:53.630 --> 00:39:56.570
remain where we are and so that can become a
00:39:56.570 --> 00:39:59.269
bit of a sticky literally sticky kind of experience
00:39:59.269 --> 00:40:01.969
to get out of isn't it so I think yeah also if
00:40:01.969 --> 00:40:04.050
you feel as though you are protecting other people
00:40:04.050 --> 00:40:06.349
and and they're relying on you then you think
00:40:06.349 --> 00:40:09.449
oh well maybe I should stay for them but actually
00:40:09.449 --> 00:40:11.349
you know everyone's responsible for their own
00:40:11.349 --> 00:40:16.280
lives and and They'll be OK anyway. And I knew
00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:18.619
they'd be OK whether that was they'd also make
00:40:18.619 --> 00:40:21.039
their decision to leave, which a lot of people
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:24.159
did. So perhaps you role modelled something by
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:27.159
going. Yeah, yeah. So maybe you were helping
00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:29.460
them. I think one of the most challenging things
00:40:29.460 --> 00:40:33.179
I hear from managers and leaders is that moving
00:40:33.179 --> 00:40:35.789
from being. the professional performer yourself
00:40:35.789 --> 00:40:39.030
and it all being about you to being the facilitator
00:40:39.030 --> 00:40:41.630
of other people's performance and when you think
00:40:41.630 --> 00:40:43.789
about it right from childhood it's all about
00:40:43.789 --> 00:40:45.590
the individual isn't it right through school
00:40:45.590 --> 00:40:48.489
college university in the first decade or couple
00:40:48.489 --> 00:40:51.070
of decades of work potentially then all of a
00:40:51.070 --> 00:40:52.869
sudden it's not really about you anymore it's
00:40:52.869 --> 00:40:57.170
about them and often that'll take a lot of time
00:40:57.170 --> 00:41:01.880
for people to get their head around that concept,
00:41:01.940 --> 00:41:05.639
but then to enact it. And I think what's great
00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:08.880
about the offering you're bringing to the marketplace
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:11.179
is it's giving people in a very tech environment,
00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:14.840
which is, you know, I imagine a lot to do with
00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:17.800
being a real knowledgeable performer as an individual.
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:19.800
That's how you get in there and that's how you
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:22.219
stand out in there. But giving them those real
00:41:22.219 --> 00:41:26.980
people skills that help them to help their teams.
00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:31.429
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because it is an entirely
00:41:31.429 --> 00:41:34.929
different set of skills, managing a team and
00:41:34.929 --> 00:41:38.110
tech skills. I mean, yeah, one does not mean
00:41:38.110 --> 00:41:40.750
that you're good at the other, but it doesn't
00:41:40.750 --> 00:41:42.989
have to be that hard either. And people don't
00:41:42.989 --> 00:41:46.650
need to suffer through it. And it's so worth
00:41:46.650 --> 00:41:51.070
just investing a bit of... time and money into
00:41:51.070 --> 00:41:54.389
supporting managers properly because then you
00:41:54.389 --> 00:41:56.789
don't have all of the pain of people leaving
00:41:56.789 --> 00:41:59.030
because they're not happy or they're frustrated
00:41:59.030 --> 00:42:02.329
and that those new managers are just um their
00:42:02.329 --> 00:42:04.869
morale has gone right down because they were
00:42:04.869 --> 00:42:07.349
a really top performer before and then suddenly
00:42:07.349 --> 00:42:09.730
they're not performing so well and that's it's
00:42:09.730 --> 00:42:12.150
not fair really, you know, to have to be put
00:42:12.150 --> 00:42:15.130
in that position. So just a bit of support and
00:42:15.130 --> 00:42:18.429
some tactics can change all of that and get everyone
00:42:18.429 --> 00:42:20.769
working really well together. Yeah, it's reminding
00:42:20.769 --> 00:42:23.210
me of when I did my master's degree, I had to
00:42:23.210 --> 00:42:26.550
do a project in a company and it was a Japanese
00:42:26.550 --> 00:42:29.650
owned manufacturing organisation. And when I
00:42:29.650 --> 00:42:32.610
went in as a student to give my findings, one
00:42:32.610 --> 00:42:34.349
of the Japanese directors was there and he sat
00:42:34.349 --> 00:42:36.550
in, he was a very nice gentleman. And he was,
00:42:36.650 --> 00:42:39.940
mine was all about... team leadership, this thesis
00:42:39.940 --> 00:42:42.500
that I'd written. And he was kind of laughing
00:42:42.500 --> 00:42:44.539
with me over a cup of coffee afterwards saying,
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:47.519
you do know that you... We can't lose against
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:50.820
you here in the West because you take your best
00:42:50.820 --> 00:42:53.119
IT programmer and make them a people manager.
00:42:53.300 --> 00:42:55.860
You take your best salesperson and make them
00:42:55.860 --> 00:42:58.900
a people manager. You take your best doctor and
00:42:58.900 --> 00:43:00.960
make them a people manager. And he's like, we
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:03.820
don't do that. You know, we have a different
00:43:03.820 --> 00:43:07.320
career path for people who have ambition or potential
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:09.800
and they're treated differently. And that's the
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:14.309
only way to get ahead. in our kind of Western
00:43:14.309 --> 00:43:16.869
organisations is to take on more people or more
00:43:16.869 --> 00:43:19.590
budgeting responsibility. Yeah. And obviously
00:43:19.590 --> 00:43:23.650
that doesn't suit everyone or doesn't come naturally
00:43:23.650 --> 00:43:26.170
to everyone. And it is, like you say, another
00:43:26.170 --> 00:43:28.989
different role. It's another profession that
00:43:28.989 --> 00:43:32.710
you're learning now on top of your IT or your
00:43:32.710 --> 00:43:36.190
marketing or your medical qualifications. And
00:43:36.190 --> 00:43:39.590
so I think having people out there that will
00:43:39.590 --> 00:43:43.389
come in and just help you, To just navigate that
00:43:43.389 --> 00:43:45.969
and build your confidence. Because I don't know
00:43:45.969 --> 00:43:49.269
about you, but I often see that people who might
00:43:49.269 --> 00:43:53.110
be kind of car crash managers in some senses,
00:43:53.170 --> 00:43:55.829
they have all these amazing skills outside of
00:43:55.829 --> 00:43:58.670
work. They're great parents. They coach sports
00:43:58.670 --> 00:44:01.030
teams. They're a really supportive friend that
00:44:01.030 --> 00:44:03.090
offers help and assistance. And you're like,
00:44:03.130 --> 00:44:05.929
oh, you have all the skills you need. You're
00:44:05.929 --> 00:44:09.139
just not bringing them to work. And often it's
00:44:09.139 --> 00:44:11.659
a very different way of leading a team as well,
00:44:11.739 --> 00:44:14.079
because we think managers are the ones who are
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:17.260
there to direct and to say exactly what you should
00:44:17.260 --> 00:44:19.719
do and how you do it. That's not the best way
00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:23.460
of doing things. So, yeah, it's realising that
00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:26.510
actually there is a different way. And it's a
00:44:26.510 --> 00:44:29.230
better way. And it's OK to try this different
00:44:29.230 --> 00:44:33.050
approach. So having support from the top down
00:44:33.050 --> 00:44:36.789
in the business and having coaching really embraced
00:44:36.789 --> 00:44:39.989
just helps so much to let the managers know that
00:44:39.989 --> 00:44:42.849
actually, you know, we agree that this is the
00:44:42.849 --> 00:44:45.230
approach we want to take. And this is what's
00:44:45.230 --> 00:44:47.730
going to build the culture that we need to be
00:44:47.730 --> 00:44:50.469
where we want to be as a business and to help
00:44:50.469 --> 00:44:53.559
them to scale. Yeah. And to make those businesses
00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:58.519
better for our children and more confidence building,
00:44:58.699 --> 00:45:02.380
kind of stress reducing environment where people
00:45:02.380 --> 00:45:05.000
can feel that they're able to be themselves,
00:45:05.079 --> 00:45:08.239
but also realize their potential and be their
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:11.789
best. Yeah. So everybody benefits. Yeah. Yeah,
00:45:11.789 --> 00:45:13.449
that's great, isn't it? It's lovely. And you
00:45:13.449 --> 00:45:15.909
also do some online workshops as well, don't
00:45:15.909 --> 00:45:17.849
you? Doing one about imposter syndrome at the
00:45:17.849 --> 00:45:19.570
moment. And so they come out quite regularly.
00:45:19.809 --> 00:45:22.070
They do. Through your website. And so if people
00:45:22.070 --> 00:45:23.869
are interested in Bianca's work and what she
00:45:23.869 --> 00:45:25.789
does and the messages, then you can obviously
00:45:25.789 --> 00:45:27.869
check her out and we'll put a link into our show
00:45:27.869 --> 00:45:30.389
notes. So there's a couple of questions I wanted
00:45:30.389 --> 00:45:34.969
to just finish on. The first is if there's somebody
00:45:34.969 --> 00:45:38.159
out there thinking. or aspiring to change their
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:40.900
career and do something different, maybe to start
00:45:40.900 --> 00:45:42.840
their own business or maybe to just retrain in
00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:45.679
a different profession, what would be your advice
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:48.599
to them? I know we said don't give advice, but
00:45:48.599 --> 00:45:52.239
what would be your kind of tips if they are in
00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:55.860
that, like, should I, shouldn't I? It depends
00:45:55.860 --> 00:45:57.760
if they have an inkling of what they want to
00:45:57.760 --> 00:46:01.929
go for next or not. If they do, then it's a matter
00:46:01.929 --> 00:46:04.329
of building confidence and making a plan. So
00:46:04.329 --> 00:46:08.230
before I quit my job, I had a spreadsheet. I
00:46:08.230 --> 00:46:11.050
worked out my budget. I knew how long, how much
00:46:11.050 --> 00:46:13.570
money I needed to save to keep me going for an
00:46:13.570 --> 00:46:15.369
amount of time that I thought would get me up
00:46:15.369 --> 00:46:18.170
and running. And building your confidence as
00:46:18.170 --> 00:46:20.929
well, because you're going to need it by doing
00:46:20.929 --> 00:46:23.889
things like looking back on your life and looking
00:46:23.889 --> 00:46:27.760
at the things that you've achieved. And recognising
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:30.340
those because we're only too good at noticing
00:46:30.340 --> 00:46:32.599
the things we've done wrong, but we don't reflect
00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:34.800
enough on the things that we've done really well.
00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:38.519
So spending time thinking about that and thinking
00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:41.920
about what are the skills and attributes that
00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:45.679
you had that meant that you could do that. And
00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:48.119
asking friends and colleagues as well for their
00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:50.739
opinions of what they think you would be good
00:46:50.739 --> 00:46:53.820
at. It can be really enlightening sometimes because
00:46:53.820 --> 00:46:56.260
you see how other people see you and what other
00:46:56.260 --> 00:46:59.579
people appreciate about what you do. And that
00:46:59.579 --> 00:47:01.539
can really open your eyes to possibilities as
00:47:01.539 --> 00:47:05.820
well. That's great advice. So real self -reflection
00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:08.989
and self... awareness building yeah and having
00:47:08.989 --> 00:47:11.869
a plan having a plan and then having a plan and
00:47:11.869 --> 00:47:14.170
following your passion as well I think that's
00:47:14.170 --> 00:47:16.150
what's come over really strongly from you you
00:47:16.150 --> 00:47:20.789
realized I love this and that's fuel isn't it
00:47:20.789 --> 00:47:22.730
yeah that's fuel to get you through those days
00:47:22.730 --> 00:47:24.909
where you feel this is really hard I can't do
00:47:24.909 --> 00:47:27.750
it I'm not sure I'm good enough but I love it
00:47:27.750 --> 00:47:30.710
and I want it and that's the thing that's going
00:47:30.710 --> 00:47:33.650
to get you up the next day fighting it is and
00:47:33.650 --> 00:47:35.730
if you don't know what you love then try lots
00:47:35.730 --> 00:47:39.420
of different things yeah I've I've done so many
00:47:39.420 --> 00:47:41.980
different things it might look straightforward
00:47:41.980 --> 00:47:45.260
my my path to to people who don't know the whole
00:47:45.260 --> 00:47:47.659
story but you know I've worked in restaurants
00:47:47.659 --> 00:47:51.019
I've worked on a cattle station I've worked on
00:47:51.019 --> 00:47:54.619
dive boats I've I've worked in tech I've I've
00:47:54.619 --> 00:47:56.800
done so many different things and I've learned
00:47:56.800 --> 00:47:59.579
something really valuable from each so if you've
00:47:59.579 --> 00:48:02.400
spent many years in one career don't feel as
00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:05.690
though you've that's wasted time if you want
00:48:05.690 --> 00:48:07.630
to go on a move to do something else, because
00:48:07.630 --> 00:48:09.789
there will be so many things that you've learned
00:48:09.789 --> 00:48:11.869
during that time that will be really useful in
00:48:11.869 --> 00:48:13.989
ways that you can't even imagine right now. As
00:48:13.989 --> 00:48:16.570
you can probably tell, I'm a massive fan of the
00:48:16.570 --> 00:48:19.289
work that you do. I'm a big believer in the power
00:48:19.289 --> 00:48:21.849
of coaching from a personal point of view and
00:48:21.849 --> 00:48:24.869
in my professional life. So it's great to hear
00:48:24.869 --> 00:48:27.710
you out there just doing the same kind of thing
00:48:27.710 --> 00:48:29.610
and improving those workplaces. Thank you so
00:48:29.610 --> 00:48:31.750
much for your time. Thank you, Leona. It's been
00:48:31.750 --> 00:48:35.909
great. Next week, we have something a little
00:48:35.909 --> 00:48:38.789
different. Join myself and my wonderful producer,
00:48:38.869 --> 00:48:42.010
Nick, as we debrief what we've learned from all
00:48:42.010 --> 00:48:44.750
the wonderful guests we've spoken to so far.
00:48:44.949 --> 00:48:48.469
And we highlight the key ways of thinking and
00:48:48.469 --> 00:48:51.989
behaving that have enabled them to survive and
00:48:51.989 --> 00:48:54.989
thrive. We'll also let you know what to expect
00:48:54.989 --> 00:48:56.349
from series two.