Interview: Diving deep into the human mind with Dr. Doug Garland M.D

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This is live from California, USA.
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Welcome to this very special show of the KGE Masterclass,
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the show which ensures that you profit from your time
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spent year with experts, either through their industry and sits
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and information or.
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Simply learning from them.
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And today we have doctor Doug Garland, author of the
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authoritative guide on the tall poppy syndrome. Doctor Douglas Garland, MD,
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practiced orthopedics surgery for thirty seven years in Southern California.
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Doctor Garland was a clinical professor of orthopedics at the
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University of Southern California and he authored over one hundred
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peer reviewed scientific articles with over six hundred citations. The
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Top Poppy Syndrome is the most comprehensive book on the subject,
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Doctor Garland.
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Yes, yes, welcome to the show.
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My pleasure, thank you, thank you for taking out time
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for this particular show, the kg Masterclass. Sir, straight to
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the point. You know, the tall poppy syndrome. What exactly
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is this about? If you ask me for me, poppy
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is a nice flower, you know, beautiful flower. And except
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for one particular species poppy that's the narcotic one. The
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puppy is a good one. So if human beings are mice.
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You know why why we we are We have to
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get into their minds. But just for the plain, simple
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understanding of everybody, what exactly is tall poppy syndrome?
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So the tall puppy syndrome is a metaphor, and it's
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just as you've mentioned. It's a beautiful flower and when
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you look at it field the puppies, it's beautiful. But
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if you see a poppy it's taller than the rest,
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then somebody will want to cut that poppy down so
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that uniformity is maintained. So that's the essence of the
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tall poppy syndrome is uniformity. And I think especially America
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right now, but I think it's happening all over the
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world that we're trying to cut down people. We don't
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agree with people that are too tall, and America we
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say they're too big for their bridges. But for some
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reason we perceive that they don't deserve to be that tall,
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maybe egregious behavior, and we try and cut them down
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so they don't have the stature that they have. So
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it's unfortunately very prevalent in our society at the present time,
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which is the reason I wrote the book to try
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to help people understand the circumstances that are happening around them.
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Could you elaborate it for the exactly because this is
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a topic or words, the tall poppy syndrome is not
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many people are familiar with. And even though they are
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familiar with human emotions and the way different ways human
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beings behave at different places, if you can explain your
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understanding that you have gathered while right authoring this book.
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The tall puppy is driven by emotions and you want
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to break when you see the tall poppy syndrome occur.
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Let's take an example of Lance Armstrong, for example, who
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was a bicyclist that won the tour five times in
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a row, and he definitely was a tall poppy. Unfortunately,
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he was doing a gregious activity. He was blood taking
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blood which gave him an unfair advantage. So he lost
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all his trophies and kind of was cast out of society.
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So that's what I call a public tall poppy syndrome,
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meaning that he's a guy that I couldn't have any
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fluence on, influence on, or over cutting him down, but
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because of his egregious behavior, which was in his case
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was driven by pride, the big three for the person
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that gets cut down that's a tall poppy is pride, lust,
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and greed. And so if you think of that type
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that is the public person that's cut down, it's because
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of their bad behavior and the public thinks that they
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don't deserve to be a tall poppy. Now, if we
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look at the cutter, the cutter is almost always driven
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by envy. And it's very important for your listeners to
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understand the two types of mvy. There's good envy and
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bad envy. So the good envy would be, if I
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can use myself, I wanted to get into medical school,
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so I associated myself with really smart people and I
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got into medical school. And then when I was in
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medical school, I associated with smart people and that helped
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me get good grades because I studied their habits as
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well as what I was supposed to study. So that's
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an example of good envy, which we never talk about.
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All we talk about is bad envy, which is in
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my neighborhood, I see somebody with a nice car, and
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I don't have a nice car, and I don't think
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that I'm going to be able to get a nice car.
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So what is the person with bad envy, he keys
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the car, scratches the pink, or he cuts the tire.
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So not only mvy is desiring something that somebody else has.
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You want to destroy their happiness. So by cutting, it's
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easy to cut people down. It's way easier to cut
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people down than it is to improve yourself. So through
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mby drives what I call the private type of tall
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poppy syndrome as opposed to the public. The public is
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usually the person the tall poppy does agregious activity and
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cuts themselves and gets cut down. Whereas then the private,
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which is your tribe, the people that you are around with,
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so it's your neighborhood, your workplace, which is a huge
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source of cutting people down through the hierarchy of the company.
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You want to move yourself up, and somebody's in the way,
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so you try and take them out or cut them down.
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And then of course the schools and your kids and
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what they're around, So the school district and your kids
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are another source of the tall poppy syndrome. But basically
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the what I call the private or period a peer
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that's usually the defect of the cutter, and it's somebody
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within your own tribe, and you're you you're trying to
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get ahead of that person. So that's the two main categories,
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the public and the private, and both are driven by emotions,
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by emotions, and usually the private is mostly envy, but
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anger and fear also drive the cutter's emotions. Now these
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emotions are they have not changed in time. So when
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I start, when I did my research, the original description
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of the tall poppy syndrome, although it wasn't called that
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was I found it in green and ancient Greece. And actually,
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when you think about it, Socrates drank hmlock right, and
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he was falsely accused of his misdemeanors. And Socrates was
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such a gentleman that he thought it was best that
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he drank the hemlock rather than fight the system and
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create more problems. So he accepted that and drank the
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hemlock and died. But that's one of the first cases
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that people can think about the tall poppy syndrome, and
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then if we go it was followed up in Rome.
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Rome was founded in seven hundred and fifty BC. Mostitarily
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history of Rome, and this was the period of the Kingdom.
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The kingdoms was seven hundred and fifty to five hundred BC.
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There were seven kingdoms, and in the last kingdom was
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a guy named Tarquin the Proud. Now that's so ironic
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because pride is what cuts down the tall poppy and
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the public sphere, and here we have a guy who's
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Tarquin the Proud, and Tarkin sends his son to the
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next village to help him rule. And the son was
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having a hard time, so he sent a courier back
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to his father to tell him how to handle things.
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And the father took the courier out to the field
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of poppies and he ran over with his hand and
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any tall poppies were cut down. He never said to
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cut down tall poppies, He just demonstrated, and the messenger
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went back to his son and just told him what
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he'd experienced. And his son knew immediately that he had
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to cut down all the people who were against him
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in his town so that he wouldn't have any opposition.
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So the originals, so that was actually poppies, and Livy
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described that in Roman history. So that's the first evidence
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of it. And also what's interesting is that this was
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a government action. And so one of our biggest cutters
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in society is the government itself. The government or one
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of the departments in the government. And in North America
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we're seeing that play out very well. And the strike
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in Canada with the truckers and the prime minister and
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he's trying to cut all those truckers down. So he's
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assumed an authority of controlling the country and now he's
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going to start cutting all these truckers down because they
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didn't behave what he wanted them to.
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Do.
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Here we have here, we have something right in front
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of our eyes that was described three thousand years ago.
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Right right, doctor?
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So so you mean the society at the same time
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they want achievers and at the same time, the society
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or governments across the world, or even in ancient times,
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they wanted to conform people who would conform to whatever
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they would say.
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Now, how why and how does it work?
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Then well they were it works until they're overthrown. But
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if you I mean Genghis Khan in China, that he
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had a rule that when he conquered the village, you
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remember that he put all the little villages together and
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united and uh made China almost what it is today.
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He did that systematically, took one village after another, and
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Rome did the same thing. Alexander the Great did the
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same thing, and he united the country that way. But
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his rule was when he came into a village, anybody
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that was taller than the axle on the wagon, they
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were killed because he knew that they remembered the old
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way and he was going to change things. So he
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didn't want to revolt, so he just left really young people,
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which was right out of the playbook of Rome. And
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if you look at Rome itself again, Julius Caesar was
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tall poppy by Brutus. If you remember, he crossed the Rubicon.
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He had been in Gaul and he crossed the rubicon,
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which generals were not supposed to cross the rubicon. When
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he came to Rome, he created civil war, and of
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course the Senate then Brute has took him out. So
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Caesar himself is tall poppied. And that's how we change. Well,
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we might see in Canada, we might see a new
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prime minister after all this. So eventually the ruler in
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any country gets cut down and we start over. And
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that's what happened to Tarquin the proud that he was
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the last of the seven kings. He was the last
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of the king, and then they became a democracy after him.
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So we see, we see, you know, you have communism
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in Russia and eventually that went away and we had
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a new type of ruling and we have now putin
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and we'll see he has his issues and if enough
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of the people dislike it, then they'll get rid of it.
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So they'll hall poppy.
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But even in democracies, if you see today, so uh, individuals, governments,
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depending on who is who is in power at which place,
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they're using all the means at their disposal to you know,
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to strengthen their position in whatever way it is. And
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that's why you've got to get to see more use
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of social media or any other form of you know,
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any tool to keep their views in such a manner
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in front of the public, even in your country, even
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in the USA, that they just want to be there
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and seen as the best man available for the top job.
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Well, you're exactly right. So I mentioned the government has
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control of your one of its one of its departments,
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and and in the past, that's why I've labeled that
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public and in the asked the individual didn't have much
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say over that, and that was the private or peer
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to peer. But with the Internet now and the social media,
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the peer to peer or the individual now has.
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Power.
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So when I look at countries and especially America, it
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is movements that are causing people to be cut down.
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So here we have Black Lives Matter, we have the
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Me Too movement, So you have the social media that's
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empowered the individual and they can capture the like minded
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and put a lot of pressure on it. Here we
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are doing a podcast and we had Joe Rogan just
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go through this. This is another perfect example of the
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tall poppy syndrome. They tried tried to silence, silence the
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guy here, a gentleman with eleven million followers. You and
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I could be so lucky, and that's going to draw
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a lot of envy. There's a lot of envy out
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there about it.
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And doctor the thing is that a lot of people
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want to go to that door, and so as long
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as it suits them, isn't it right?
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As long as it's like minded. He's a fine guy.
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Everybody loves you. But as soon as he gets out
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of his lane, off with his head. And speaking of
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off with his head. If you think about all the
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kingdoms in the past, and in my book, I talk
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a lot about England and the kings and queens, and
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that's the guillotine actually was done in France. Yes, here
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we have the tall poppy in full bloom and a
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literal and figurative meaning that you know, if the king
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didn't if you didn't agree with the king, it was
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off with his head. Which is another great example of
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the tall poppy syndrome and why it's been throughout Man
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and in almost all countries. And once again that's the
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government cutting down the opposition.
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Right right, guilutin does not work anywhere.
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So even if it's exercised by the kings, or even
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if it is exercised by even common people in the
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in the chance to you know, level the system better
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for everybody, or to make a system pair. It happened
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in the even in the French Revolution also, you know
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what happened just within ten years, you know.
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Yes, no, that's another good example of the top thing
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of the government and people trying to find the leader
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and find their way. And many tall coppies were cut
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down through that during ten year period. Yes, yes, that's
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a perfect example.
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Yes, So coming coming to the seeking of fairness in
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day to day life by the general people, let's come
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down to our workplaces, and even even in the family
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lives of people all across the world talking you know, fairness,
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people try to use, you know, in the search of fairness,
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and people are trying to justify their actions, even negative ones,
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you know, so that to show that they are also equal.
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Now you have discussed about this very very uh in detail.
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Can you tell us in your own words, how do
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you see all these things and what does it actually mean?
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Well, remember from the Bible Cain and Abel, so that's
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talking about early early history, so that we hardly get
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a few pages into the Bible and we come across
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Cain and Abel. And the actual first example as you
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start into the Bible actually is is Adam and Eve.
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And now, usually women don't have pride like men. If
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you look through history and you see the tall poppy,
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you hardly see any women. And here we have and
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women don't have the pride that men do. They they
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have a different understanding.
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But you call it pride.
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Pride, well, it is the ego, but it's pride and Catholicism,
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it's pride what we call the seven sins, seven deadly sins,
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and three of the seven are pride, lust, and greed.
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That was the seven deadly sins came from a pope
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who was trying to keep the monks in line. So
279
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he had the seven emotions that were most likely to
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cause the monks to fall out of grace. Of those seven,
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so the first of pride, greed, and lust, and those
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we find in tall poppies. Now we don't see much
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to are floths, which is laziness and eating too much gluttony,
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so we don't see those two. But the other two
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then are envy and anger, and those two we find
286
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in the cutter. So here's the pope in five hundred
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ninety a d is essentially describing the mechanisms of the
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tall poppy syndrome. And of course in Catholicism, the way
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you control a bad emotion is to use the virtue.
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There's an opposing virtue, so you know, pride would be humility.
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That's how you counteract that. So it's to learn the
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virtue that opposes the the bad emotion.
293
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But in so.
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The hierarchy, and actually there's no better hierarchy than the
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cast system in India. It's after the government. The hierarchy
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00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:33.039
itself is where you'll find tall poppy syndrome because it's
297
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going to be your relationship to your peers that you're
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all going to compete to move ahead, so you'll want
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to if you can't improve yourself or you think they
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have an unfair advantage, then you want to cut that
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person down. Or if your supervisor is not who you
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00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:57.440
think that person should be, then you try and undermine
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their authority so that they'll take a fall. So that
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that happens in every company, everywhere in the world. So
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if you want to find the tall poppy syndrome, look
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no further than the place you work. I actually thought
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I was tall poppied in my work, and that that's
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how a person told me I'd been tall poppy. Actually
309
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:27.240
an Australian friend, where the tall poppy syndrome is very,
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very very prevalent. It's the most prevalent of the English
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speaking countries. And I had a friend there and I
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was actually supposed to go speak and I told them
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I just resigned from my post and they said really,
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And I explained why, and they said, my goodness, you've
315
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been tall poppy. Well, I'd never heard of that phrase.
316
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And I went ahead and finished my practice, and then
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when I had time to think about it and study it.
318
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That's when I spent my in your journey of researching
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00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:06.400
the literature and looking throughout the world to learn about
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the tall poppy syndrome. So mine was workplace, which is
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very very common. Your neighborhood's not that big. You have
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a usually very small sphere. But trust me, if you
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go into the workplace, and then in most governments, I mean,
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they're the epitome of the hierarchy. So if you go
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into any government institution. When I tell people about in
326
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a government institution that about the tall poppy syndrome, they're
327
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the first ones that get it. It doesn't matter whether
328
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you're in the military, in the post office, whatever government
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system it is, because it's very hard to go up
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to the next level, so that they don't have what
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America kind of had at one time was meritocracy. You
332
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had to be the best to go to the next level.
333
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But when you're in the government, there's a lot of
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payola and other things that go into it, and so
335
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the best person doesn't always get the crawl up and
336
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wrung of the ladder.
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Well, you got the spice system also, you.
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Know, Yeah, Well that the whole thing was the premise
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of my book. When I started the research was why
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don't we know about the tall poppy centrum in America?
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And so my premise of the book was that America
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was founded on the individual, and we worshiped the individual,
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and so I thought, well, there's not going to be
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the tall poppy centrum in America because we like the individual.
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And through this ten years, as I've been doing it,
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I've come to the conclusion I think America is actually
347
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the worst country in the world because of our old
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fashioned meritocracy where if you worked hard, you could get ahead,
349
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and that's not the case in America anymore. So we
350
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have our government, there are hierarchies of institutions which are
351
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trying to socially engineer culture just like the government's doing.
352
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So the conclusion of the book was, the tall poppy
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syndrome is in America, and it's prevalent in America as
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much as any country on Earth. Even the Australians, where
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it's a huge part of their culture, they claim twenty
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percent of the culture has been cut down. Well, we
357
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know that's not completely true because it's more of an
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egalitarian country and there aren't twenty percent of the people
359
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that are so called tall poppies, So you know, it
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has to be the period of peer the people working together.
361
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And Victor Frankel, you know, the person from the camps
362
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in Germany, when he wrote it this book about his experience,
363
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he claimed that the being in the concentration camp was
364
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the worst place for envy in the world because everybody
365
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was supposed to be equal. That was the grand neutralizer
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of humanity. But what if somebody had a toothbrush? It
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drove the other people crazy that somebody had a toothbrush
368
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within that system. So even the most meager places one
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would look at, you can find the tall poppy syndrome.
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I get it. So tell me one thing. Everybody is
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seeking fairness in.
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Society by cutting others down, and how will they achieve
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fairness at all?
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Well, that's the problem. Now they've they've turned the whole
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thing upside down. And I think social media is a
376
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big part of that, because social social media is the
377
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currency of that is zimvy. So you go out to dinner,
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nobody's even talking to each other. They're all on their
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phones photographing and sending the photos back to their friends
380
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and it's like, look at how great I am. And
381
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so they're essentially in a mild sense, cutting the people
382
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that aren't there down. So you have all this competition
383
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for menial things and it's warping how everybody looks at
384
00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:44.440
everybody else. And it's just because of our social media.
385
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So you know, bullying, which is very close to tall
386
00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:57.680
poppy syndrome, is rampant as well now because of social media.
387
00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:02.759
And there's one other concept I want to mention because
388
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:07.480
it's so closely associated with tall poppy syndrome, which is
389
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:12.119
a German word called schadenfreude. Have you heard of that?
390
00:28:12.759 --> 00:28:16.759
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
391
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:19.599
So we'll use since I'm an American, and we'll use
392
00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:25.839
the Cowboy movies of how Hollywood appreciates schadenfreude and what
393
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:28.480
makes people want to go to the movie. So you
394
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:32.279
go to the old fashioned cowboy movie where everything was
395
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:37.440
black and white, and the good guy wins out, you know,
396
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:42.680
he shoots the wrestler or how draws the bad guy,
397
00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:48.200
and so good is one and the bad guy was
398
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.400
cut down, which was the example of the tall poppy syndrome.
399
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:58.200
But what happens when that justification occurs, you feel good yourself.
400
00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:04.599
And that's that's what shaddenfreuda is is having pleasure from
401
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:09.920
somebody else's pain. Yes, so people actually even in America,
402
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:16.480
talk about shaden freude, but they don't talk about the
403
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:20.480
tall poppy center and occurring before the shaden freuda happen.
404
00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:25.400
But the two of them are very very closely linked.
405
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:27.240
They both are driven by envy.
406
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:32.920
Yes, but so why would humans, you know, humans should
407
00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:39.720
be happy with somebody else's misfortune. In fact, the part
408
00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:42.440
that I see a lot of times today is that
409
00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:47.319
all those you know, gory videos or anything else, they
410
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:50.559
get so many hits even on the social media, and
411
00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:54.480
some people like it so much that that watch it
412
00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:55.319
again and again.
413
00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:58.400
So I just wanted to ask, even in general life,
414
00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:00.519
is this.
415
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:06.480
Particular problem of scadding fuel, fruitia, whatever baby pronounce it,
416
00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:12.680
is it a part of a human psyche problem.
417
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:17.839
It's the the area in the brain that is excited
418
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:28.319
when you have mvy is right beside the pleasure spot. So, uh,
419
00:30:28.359 --> 00:30:32.400
there's two phrases I use in the book, Your your
420
00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:38.519
pain is My gain, uh, which is shadenfreude. You feel
421
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:41.440
you know you've it actually feels good. It's like taking
422
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:44.119
a drug. So if you get hurt, I feel better.
423
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:46.880
Who doesn't want to feel better? And you haven't even
424
00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:50.440
done anything for it. So that's why you know, we
425
00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:53.920
have a When I went through medical school, we call
426
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:58.440
the delayed gratification you were used. I went to fourteen
427
00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:02.079
years of school after I I got out of high school.
428
00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:04.839
It is like an extended release drug.
429
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:11.759
Yes, correct, that's exactly what it is. So that's the shadenfreude.
430
00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:17.680
You're getting gained by somebody else's pain, and MV is
431
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:22.799
just the opposite. Nobody wants that my pain is your gain,
432
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:27.119
so you're somebody else is doing better and that actually
433
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:32.880
hurts you and that's painful. So the easiest way is
434
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:36.720
not to spend fourteen years going through medical school and stuff.
435
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:42.240
It's to hurt that individual and destroy their happiness. And
436
00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:45.119
by doing that, you now feel better about yourself and
437
00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:50.160
you feel you feel good. So in our mass media,
438
00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:54.160
when you think about it, it's very easy when you
439
00:31:54.279 --> 00:31:58.839
understand the emotions, especially envy. Why it's happening in the world.
440
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:03.839
As I mentioned, the whole currency of the internet, the
441
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:08.359
social media is envy. Bad envy, not good envy. You
442
00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:11.519
don't see a lot of people looking I mean, everybody
443
00:32:11.559 --> 00:32:15.319
loved the Joe Rogan thing. May it gave people a
444
00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:19.200
lot of happiness to see that gentleman cut down and
445
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:22.359
somebody that I mean, he was making one hundred million
446
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:26.559
a year, right, Yes, So that's that's offensive to people,
447
00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:29.319
many many, many, many people knowing that it's so out
448
00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:33.960
of reach. And once again you bring in deservingness or justification.
449
00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:38.720
Nobody's worth that kind of money. So when you think
450
00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:42.920
about it, it's it's all emotional, and it's it's the
451
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:49.359
seven Deadly sins. It's bad emotions and not good emotions.
452
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.599
Yes, and nobody envies envies you when you are passing
453
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:56.000
through a rough pace in your life, like you, also
454
00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:58.720
had a tough time in his life, and later, only
455
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:02.240
in the last few years he has actually seen that
456
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:03.000
sort of money.
457
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:07.319
You know that's true. You know you're right, all the
458
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:11.640
trouble and hurt and pain. I actually in my book,
459
00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:17.279
I have a chapter devoted to tall poppies. Are to
460
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:24.759
the type of person that I feel are deserving tall poppies.
461
00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:29.440
And all of them, some of them ended up dead,
462
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:33.640
but all of them had a tough time during life,
463
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:36.880
and all of them were tall poppied. But because they
464
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:39.839
were so strong, they were able to overcome all that.
465
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:43.079
But almost all people I mean, you can not the
466
00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:47.640
people that inherit money, but most tall poppies earned it,
467
00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:51.880
and it was very difficult to achieve what they've achieved.
468
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.640
And we should be like America used to be. We
469
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:59.960
should we should be celebrating. That's why they put statues up.
470
00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:05.319
People are to look at him and to create that
471
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:12.440
good envy or to emulate somebody. And now you know,
472
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.760
our society is so divided that we can't agree who
473
00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:20.159
a tall poppy is. Very interesting story is you know Napoleon,
474
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:23.519
who was definitely a tall poppy, who was tall poppied,
475
00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:28.400
but he had his his his own hall of fame
476
00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:36.079
where he had bus of historically important people. Now he
477
00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:42.000
actually has Yes Caesar and both Caesar and Brutus in there,
478
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:47.800
which I found very very fascinating because Caesar became a
479
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:51.480
tall poppy and he was cut down by Brutus as
480
00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:55.400
well as other people. But so some people are going
481
00:34:55.480 --> 00:35:00.960
to think Caesar was a tall poppy. People will think
482
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:04.199
Brutus was a tall poppy because he cut the tall
483
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:06.239
poppy down and became a tall poppy.
484
00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:08.920
I got to ask you one question here.
485
00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:12.800
If you're talking of Julius Caesar, you know after the
486
00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:18.599
mark Antony's speech. The mob went berserk, and then they said,
487
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:22.320
let's catch those traitors. And then there is a sound
488
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:26.400
that there was. One of the conspirator's name was Sinna,
489
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:28.920
and the mob said, are you listening, are you getting mess?
490
00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:32.679
Yes? Yes, yes, yes.
491
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:37.079
So the mob said that let's now catch Sinna. So
492
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:39.679
they catch somebody. Then they say, he's not that Sina
493
00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:44.039
Sina the poet. And then they said, here writes bad poems.
494
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:44.920
Let him.
495
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:48.440
So Shakespeare did not describe what happened to it, but
496
00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:54.079
we understand that he killed him. Yes, that's the mob mentality. Now,
497
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:57.440
where is this tall poppy thing in this like, who
498
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:01.320
is the tall puppy? Here is Sinna the good poet?
499
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:06.559
Poet is a tall poppy that that actually is just
500
00:36:06.679 --> 00:36:10.760
for fun. They are part of this skin and fruit
501
00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:16.079
sort of syndrome because they're happy about somebody ALS's misfortune.
502
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:19.960
You're absolutely right. I spend a lot of time dissecting
503
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:25.079
tall poppies and doing examples of the book because and
504
00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:27.320
I make the point that your tall poppy may not
505
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:32.960
be my tall poppy, which is fine, but just understand, uh,
506
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:37.719
it's a self help book in the end, because you
507
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:43.079
have to understand the behavior of the cutter and the
508
00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:46.400
cut tie, the two people involved in it. And you
509
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:50.559
have to understand your own bias or yourself, your own
510
00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:55.159
self esteem. The tall poppy syndrome in the period of
511
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:58.039
peer is mostly found with people who have low self
512
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:02.440
esteem and they can't build it up. So how do
513
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:06.920
they build it up? They cut somebody down. So the
514
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:11.719
book is actually learning how to dissect it. Just what
515
00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:15.519
you were talking about, how to dissect the tall poppy syndrome.
516
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:18.960
Who the cutter was, what his behavior was, who the
517
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:22.400
cut he was, what their behavior was. And then you
518
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:26.960
have to reflect on yourself and see your own bias.
519
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:31.480
And you know, one of my quotes in the book
520
00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:36.800
is you don't see the world as it is, You
521
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:38.159
see if the world as you.
522
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:40.079
Are, meaning that.
523
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:47.480
You can't even objectively make a conclusion because of your
524
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:50.719
own bias. And I mean, we're going through that with COVID.
525
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:55.639
We used to have the so called science and now
526
00:37:56.079 --> 00:38:00.400
everybody's emotion is so wrapped up in all this that
527
00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:03.880
nobody can see the science if it was a true study.
528
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:08.679
So how does one utilize the understanding of your book
529
00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:13.079
to work cultures in families? How do you recognize a
530
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:14.039
tall poppy.
531
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:23.800
Well, mine what my criteria was serving society. So in
532
00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:27.719
order for me, there were no business people, even though
533
00:38:28.039 --> 00:38:34.360
business people are tall poppies, there were no business people
534
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:39.960
in my in my what I call the Hall of Fame,
535
00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:50.840
everybody served somebody either the environment, fellow manhood. Uh and
536
00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:57.000
they they downplayed themselves. So Mother Theresa would be an
537
00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:00.440
example for me of what I consider to be a
538
00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:04.559
tall poppy. You have to you have to serve fellow man.
539
00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:12.880
Jane Goodall would be one, you know, the lady that
540
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:16.480
studied apes. Now there was actually three ladies out of
541
00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:21.079
that group. We are American was Diane Fosse, and she
542
00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:26.360
was because I'm an American and the book was in
543
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:29.199
the end it's supposed to be about my journey through America.
544
00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:37.079
I I wanted everybody to be an American in the
545
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:40.440
Tall Poppies, So I picked Diane Fosse, who I actually
546
00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:41.119
liked a lot.
547
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:42.480
And she was.
548
00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:47.480
Cut down many times growing to be a tall poppy.
549
00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:50.079
But of course she eventually was killed for her work
550
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:55.039
because they were, you know, stealing the apes and put
551
00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:58.079
you know, selling them, and the people that were and
552
00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:02.039
she was trying to prevent that. So she eventually was
553
00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:05.320
killed because of her trying to prevent all that. So
554
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:08.480
that was kind of the ultimate tall copy for me.
555
00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:15.800
Okay, so can bad people be also tall poppies? Yeah?
556
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:18.559
How you look at the person, but of course bad
557
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:21.880
people can be tall poppies. That's you know, that's the
558
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:25.320
whole thing of Brutus was he Was he a bad
559
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:26.920
person or a tall copy?
560
00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:28.239
Right?
561
00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:32.039
And it depends on your political spectrum.
562
00:40:32.920 --> 00:40:36.320
Yes, sir, you can adjust your frame. You're bit correct,
563
00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:40.960
don't you move away a bit from the frame? Yeah, yes, yes,
564
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:43.920
it's much better. Yes, yes.
565
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:48.840
So so how how does uh you talked about the
566
00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:53.519
cancel culture and tall poppies and then about you know,
567
00:40:53.639 --> 00:40:58.079
the Black Lives Matter me to and even ACTI anti vaxers.
568
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:02.599
You know, how do we how can you explain it
569
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:03.800
in your own words?
570
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:14.360
Well, the cancel culture is the example of the tall poppies,
571
00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:18.440
the public tall poppies syndrome, And it's like minds that
572
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:25.920
get together and who who now have become empowered, and
573
00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:32.599
that empowerment then lets them do things they individually couldn't do.
574
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:35.599
And that power, in the end is a lot about
575
00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:37.960
pride and it goes to their head, and they get
576
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:42.199
carried away with what they're doing, and all of a sudden,
577
00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:45.679
what started as a good movement turns out to be
578
00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:50.400
not so good. They get carried away with with what
579
00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:55.159
they're doing. So you know, I mean, we tried to
580
00:41:55.320 --> 00:42:00.599
cancel the Rogan and then you know, as people of
581
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:03.599
the money that he was making with people that was
582
00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:05.840
envious of the fame he had.
583
00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:06.519
It was.
584
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:11.679
You know, naturally in America, black lives matters, and race
585
00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:16.639
is going to come in, a feminism and sexism is
586
00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:18.679
going to come into it. So you have a lot
587
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:24.920
of different movements coming together, a few from each one
588
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:28.519
of those, and eventually you know there's enough clamor that
589
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:33.519
something has to give. So it's the empowerment of the
590
00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:41.400
individual and the diversity of trying to really define who
591
00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:45.679
is a tall poppy. And that's why my chapter on
592
00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:51.119
the Hall of Fame was looking for service, so people
593
00:42:51.159 --> 00:42:56.079
that have served society, humanity, society, so that we got
594
00:42:56.239 --> 00:42:59.159
rid of the money and the fame and every They
595
00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:04.880
may have become famous, but it wasn't like trying to
596
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:09.039
become famous, which actually happens on the internet as well.
597
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:14.400
So I tried to neutralize all those effects that the
598
00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:17.039
tribe would come at me or at the people that
599
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:18.960
I picked to be as tall poppies.
600
00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:24.880
Right, So is it bad to be, you know, to
601
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:27.760
try for success or is it bad to be successful?
602
00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:31.480
And that's you know, that's the only way society moves forward.
603
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:34.400
Once again, I has my own feeling as we should
604
00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:40.920
worship the successful. And you know, the we have what
605
00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:43.960
we call our robber barons in America as a period
606
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.800
of eighteen hundred into the next century, and that's when
607
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:52.519
we had Carnegie, who people don't like so much now
608
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:56.960
because he was hard on his workers. But in the end,
609
00:43:57.199 --> 00:43:59.800
you have to ask where would we have been without
610
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.440
Carnegie and steel and the same at that time we
611
00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:08.480
had standard oil and the Rockefellers, and I mean, eventually
612
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:11.559
somebody's going to do all those things, but it does
613
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:14.800
take a tall poppy to do it. So, you know,
614
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:18.199
we had the Vanderbilts and travel, and we had railroad
615
00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:21.719
industry and all those things. Most of them at that
616
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:26.679
particular time they were involved in the industry. They were
617
00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:30.519
not tall poppies. They were very mean to people, and
618
00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:35.840
of course now they would be canceled, just as Teddy
619
00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:40.719
Roosevelt was one of our most recent tall poppies, who
620
00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:45.679
they just took his statue down at the Natural Museum
621
00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:49.239
of History in New York City. And I mean Abraham
622
00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:53.920
Lincoln has been schools have changed the name of Abraham Lincoln.
623
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:58.880
So there's no escape of the culture wars that we're
624
00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:01.960
having in the cancel culture in America and around the world.
625
00:45:03.400 --> 00:45:07.079
But sir, you have also faced problems because you were
626
00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:12.039
a tall poppy and then successful people what what way
627
00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:16.719
they can protect themselves from being, you know, so called
628
00:45:16.760 --> 00:45:19.840
cut to size by people who are lesser than them.
629
00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:23.519
Well, once again, it's serving people.
630
00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:23.920
If you.
631
00:45:29.239 --> 00:45:32.840
Yes, yeah, I hate to get give examples because then
632
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:39.000
you get more trouble. But if you you know, Steve
633
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:41.880
Jobs was a tall poppy, but Steve Jobs is also
634
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:46.480
cut down got and you know he lost to move
635
00:45:46.519 --> 00:45:51.920
from his right And the problem is they have that
636
00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:59.920
intense will to be be number one and stay number one.
637
00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:02.760
It's very hard to do that, so you cut a
638
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:05.559
lot of others down doing that. So the way you
639
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:14.360
have to do that is to serve people, serve your customer,
640
00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:18.639
and serve the people that are making the product. So
641
00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:22.199
for me, if I look at somebody like Elon Musk,
642
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:32.840
who gets all those wonderful allowance of stock purchases each year.
643
00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:37.920
I would wonder why he couldn't just, however many he
644
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:40.239
got one year gets just give a few of those
645
00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:42.920
to each of his employees and not take them himself,
646
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:46.159
but really reward the people who did the work to
647
00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:49.599
make him who he was. And on the flip side
648
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:54.199
of that, if he's making so much money, maybe he
649
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:56.880
could reduce the price of the car a little bit.
650
00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:01.400
Say we've been successful and making a lot of money. So,
651
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:07.320
I mean, Amazon just had a blowout quarter, but not
652
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:08.159
a lot of money.
653
00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:12.320
Must that he wants to take everybody to mars? How
654
00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:13.000
will you do that?
655
00:47:13.400 --> 00:47:17.400
And you well, but I mean, so what do they
656
00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:19.840
do after they have a blogg quarter? They raise the
657
00:47:20.039 --> 00:47:24.960
rate of the of the membership. That doesn't seem right
658
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:28.639
to me. So that that's how they could be a
659
00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:34.000
tall poppy would be to say, you know, be generous
660
00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:37.519
with your wealth and say, listen, thank all you customers.
661
00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:41.360
We've had a wonderful profit. You've been you've made us successful.
662
00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:45.639
We're going to reduce the rate of your prime instead
663
00:47:45.639 --> 00:47:47.840
of one hundred dollars, it's only going to be ninety
664
00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:53.239
dollars instead of going up to one hundred and twenty. Well,
665
00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:55.960
it's part of its perception. Part of it's real, but
666
00:47:56.039 --> 00:48:00.320
part of it's also a perception of doing. You know,
667
00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:03.519
I go back to my chapters doing what's best for
668
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:08.079
your fellow man. So you must always keep that in.
669
00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:13.599
Money Buffett or you know Bill Gates, the you donated
670
00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:16.920
so much of money to charity forilanthropicy. Are they good
671
00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:21.920
tall puppies in your assistance? They have a lot of charities.
672
00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:25.440
Well, Bill Gates, as you know, is undergoing a reckoning
673
00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:28.719
now for some of his past offenses. And he also
674
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:36.199
tried to cheat out his original partners, much as Steve
675
00:48:36.280 --> 00:48:41.239
Jobs did in a way with Bosniak Uh. Bill Gates
676
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:46.960
did that too with Paul Allen. So they you know,
677
00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:51.960
everybody has defects. So when you critically look at people,
678
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:55.840
you're going to find something wrong, especially a tall poppy.
679
00:48:55.920 --> 00:48:58.599
They many of them didn't get to be tall poppies
680
00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:03.000
without walking on somebody. So you have to take one.
681
00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:05.480
I think you have to take a full picture of
682
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:10.320
them and not worry too much about some failures now
683
00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:14.480
and then. But I mean, in the end, you always
684
00:49:14.599 --> 00:49:17.440
have to have not only do you have to look
685
00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:20.679
like you're helping mankind, but you have to be helping mankind.
686
00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:24.480
You can't be selfish. So I think that's the message
687
00:49:24.519 --> 00:49:30.159
for everybody is if you are a tall poppy, share
688
00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:33.159
the wealth and if you want to be a tall poppy,
689
00:49:34.039 --> 00:49:38.039
serve mankind. And nobody's ever going to catch you down
690
00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:38.719
for doing that.
691
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:42.000
So how can how can a person like me has
692
00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:44.360
no wealth, how can he be a tall poppy?
693
00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:48.239
Well, you are a tall poppy. You're doing a good
694
00:49:48.320 --> 00:49:50.920
job to society, and you want to be on the
695
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:53.239
right right. You don't want to be on the win
696
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:56.920
necessarily on the winning side. I mean that's part of
697
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:07.039
somebody like some of our Confederate officers in our Civil War.
698
00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:09.679
You know, there were tall poppies there, to be sure.
699
00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:14.960
Some of them thought to protect the homeland. They considered
700
00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:18.800
the North invading the South wrong. But they didn't own slaves.
701
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:24.599
There weren't any part of that system. And so they
702
00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:32.920
they get taken down because of guilt by association. But
703
00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:37.039
you and to a certain extent, they were serving their
704
00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:40.360
own mankind, who happened to be different than the total
705
00:50:41.239 --> 00:50:46.800
mankind of America. They were serving the South. So it's
706
00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:51.960
hard to know how to be perfect. But you just
707
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:57.599
want to be a nice man and have nice podcasts
708
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:02.760
and try and help the environment and manhood, and you'll
709
00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:03.960
be a winner.
710
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:06.760
Thank you, sir, thank you, thank you for your time.
711
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:11.199
Worse, my last question to you, sir, is that the
712
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:15.159
how can whatever your study has come out with your book,
713
00:51:15.639 --> 00:51:18.559
how can workplaces benefit out of it?
714
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:20.800
Utilize it in there, you know, to make it a
715
00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:21.480
better place.
716
00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:29.599
Well, they to a certain extent, medicines and and and
717
00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:38.920
our are social media companies and stuff. They they encourage competition.
718
00:51:39.559 --> 00:51:44.119
I mean they they encourage bad behavior. Even in medical school,
719
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:50.039
for example, our tests were posted. So if we took
720
00:51:50.079 --> 00:51:53.119
a test you didn't get somebody didn't give you an
721
00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:57.559
envelope of your grade. You they put the they posted
722
00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:02.400
the scores on a bullet and board. So that to
723
00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:09.840
a certain extent, that encourages competition. It should encourage good envy,
724
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:13.639
but that's very difficult because you see who's number one,
725
00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:18.039
and then you should want to emulate that. The problem is,
726
00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:24.079
most of that encourages bad envy, so you want to
727
00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:27.079
cut that person down. Not study. If you're already studying
728
00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:31.719
twenty three and a half hours a day. You got
729
00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:35.320
to have that last thirty minutes to yourself. So you
730
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:37.280
know you can't give that up, so you're going to
731
00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:41.119
cut the top guy down. So you need to be
732
00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:46.239
able to foster competition within the company, but you want
733
00:52:46.239 --> 00:52:46.840
it to be.
734
00:52:48.360 --> 00:52:48.800
Subtle.
735
00:52:49.239 --> 00:52:53.719
You don't want that avert competition where you're creating envy,
736
00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:59.400
and I mean you want to be fair. You know,
737
00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:05.880
it helps to understand what happens within a company. I
738
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:09.280
mean if you look at CNN now, which is going
739
00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:13.440
through the tall poppy syndrome with the cutting down of
740
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:19.480
one of the anchors and then the cutting down of
741
00:53:19.559 --> 00:53:22.800
the president, and the people that are left there right
742
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:26.840
now are trying to figure out what's happened, and so
743
00:53:26.920 --> 00:53:31.159
you need the head of the people can't be good
744
00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:35.079
tall poppies themselves unless they come forth and really explain
745
00:53:35.719 --> 00:53:41.320
what's happening and why. So you have to. They's fine
746
00:53:41.400 --> 00:53:46.519
to do things, but people should know why. If somebody
747
00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:50.960
gets advanced, it's nice to know why they got advanced. Well,
748
00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:54.800
we needed we needed a female because ninety percent of
749
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:58.119
our customers are female, so we thought a female would
750
00:53:58.159 --> 00:54:00.920
be best. That would be an important as respect of
751
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:05.199
naming somebody so that you don't just say, oh, we're
752
00:54:05.239 --> 00:54:07.119
going to check that box and we're going to we're
753
00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:10.800
going to have a female take that. If you take
754
00:54:10.920 --> 00:54:16.119
maybe somebody who you didn't think was smarter or worked harder,
755
00:54:16.519 --> 00:54:19.840
then it would be nice to know why that person
756
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:25.000
had that got that position. And so you know, you
757
00:54:25.159 --> 00:54:27.599
just have to tell the truth. You have to, you know,
758
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:32.239
the whole problem now, you know, in war they always
759
00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:36.480
say truth is the first casualty. But I think that's
760
00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:40.039
not just war. I think that's in our own governments
761
00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:43.559
and in our own corporations.
762
00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:43.880
That we don't.
763
00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:48.199
We just have lost faith in our institutions. They don't
764
00:54:48.800 --> 00:54:52.880
they're not truthful or we perceive them as not being truthful.
765
00:54:53.719 --> 00:54:58.519
And so you know, if you serve people and you're truthful,
766
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:01.719
I think you'll be fine. You could still have a
767
00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:07.159
meritocracy and get tall copies out of that meal you.
768
00:55:09.159 --> 00:55:11.760
So, Sosa, should I put it this way that in
769
00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:16.760
your study of humans, have you found that humanity will
770
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:19.719
is moving towards disaster or something brighter?
771
00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:23.559
No, I think we're moving. I think we're in a
772
00:55:23.599 --> 00:55:28.840
phase of you know, it's like the weather, you know,
773
00:55:29.159 --> 00:55:32.119
warm and cold, and I think we're in a phase
774
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:36.400
of social change in America. I mean, I grew up
775
00:55:37.239 --> 00:55:42.320
in the sixties, so I saw social change once in
776
00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:45.960
our country, and that has to happen. It's kind of cleansing,
777
00:55:46.719 --> 00:55:50.119
brings a lot of things to the surface. So I
778
00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:54.400
think it's a necessary part of life. But you know,
779
00:55:54.440 --> 00:55:58.119
it's not like the world is falling. Our democracy is
780
00:55:58.159 --> 00:56:02.400
going to be here and we just have to write
781
00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:05.840
a few wrongs or perceived wrongs and move forward. But
782
00:56:06.639 --> 00:56:09.239
so yeah, we're I think we're in a downtime. But
783
00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:15.639
you know, once again, human nature and emotions never change.
784
00:56:15.800 --> 00:56:21.800
And by and by, by buying the large I think
785
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:26.199
we're moving forward. Everybody's moving forward for the most part.
786
00:56:26.719 --> 00:56:31.000
I mean, the world isn't worse than it was one
787
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:35.639
hundred years ago, that's for certain. So if we look
788
00:56:35.679 --> 00:56:38.280
at the world one hundred years from now, I would
789
00:56:38.320 --> 00:56:40.000
like to think it's going to be better than we
790
00:56:40.039 --> 00:56:42.559
are right now. It's going to be around, it's going
791
00:56:42.639 --> 00:56:45.559
to be some democracies, and there's going to be a
792
00:56:45.559 --> 00:56:49.239
lot of tall poppies, and I think it'll probably be
793
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:50.400
a better place.
794
00:56:51.760 --> 00:56:55.000
Yes, sir, on this optimistic notes up, it's a wrapp
795
00:56:55.000 --> 00:56:56.960
on this edition of the Cage In Masterclass.
796
00:56:57.280 --> 00:56:58.880
Thank you so much for your time.
797
00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:00.400
Thank you.
798
00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:04.880
Hope to see you soon here yes, yes, and very
799
00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:05.119
soon