Curriculum vs Data. Episode 14

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Kind: captions
Language: en
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you
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welcome to tonight's episode we have
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curriculum versus data there is no
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single politician that doesn't want
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voters children to be happy in school
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the question is about how you get it and
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where i really
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drew the line is i i think on a policy
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level
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you can't draw the line between
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curriculum and happiness
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but also politically i don't think most
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parents
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in fact i i i would go so fast and say
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almost no parent does draw a line
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between a particular curriculum model
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a particular pedagogical model and their
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children's happiness
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and what parent doesn't want their child
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to be happy at school but is it
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curriculum that makes them happy
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or perhaps they're friends well we can
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have another look at it with james
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pembroke
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who sort of worries about the amount of
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data that schools push
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and perhaps looks a bit more into
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curriculum what sort of curriculum could
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you have in
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primary schools perhaps more arts i like
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the artsy fartsy stuff
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i like the idea of my children coming
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home with paint on their sleeves
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and dirt on their knees i like that i i
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don't
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i i'm not that bothered
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yes i want them to do well i want them
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to be taught well i want them to be
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secondary ready
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i want them to go into secondary school
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and do well but there is more to it
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there's more to primary education than
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just the outcomes in reading
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maths spag there is so is our pursual of
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data the expense of all other things
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like the arts in particular and what
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about at university level
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what about reaching out beyond just
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doing
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um the subject you're doing and reaching
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out to the world of work perhaps
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there's nothing really wrong with just
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doing same maths from the age of 16 to
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21 or history or whatever it might be
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there's nothing really wrong with it in
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the sense that they're all good for
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developing your mind
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but clearly you're not going to be
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making many connections
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outside that formal academic space if
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that's all you study all day long all
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your
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assessed on and i think you know without
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massive randomized control trials it's
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fairly clear that that might be
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sub-optimal for a lot of your future
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welcome
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i've come all the way from stonehenge
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you've come all the way from yorkshire
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yes drove been i've been yeah doing live
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face-to-face training at a school in
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yorkshire today
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uh much to my surprise uh socially
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distance of course but
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back in time for the show and it looks
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like a corker
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uh so we're gonna kick off with
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that uh interview with jonathan simon
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and ed doral at uh public first
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talking about well amongst other things
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talking about
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uh kate green's joyless curriculum gate
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in a bit ed doral and jonathan simons
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from public first who are going to talk
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to us a little bit about the work that
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they do and
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um and how this relates to some a recent
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news story so if i start with you
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jonathan um can i ask you to tell us a
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little bit about
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um public first as an organization and
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what you what you
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do yeah thanks david and thanks very
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much for having us on
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um public first is a boutique high-end
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uh agency there's about 25 of us um
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and we are a cross between a think tank
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a polling company a research
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organization and
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a strategy and communications agency and
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we
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work with clients including quite a
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large number of organizations in
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education
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to help them navigate public policy
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questions be that helping them think
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through
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complicated public policy research
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questions they're trying to answer
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uh be that helping them navigate
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government legislation government
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announcements
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engaging with parliamentarians or with
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mps or with civil servants
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and lastly and probably most relevantly
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uh conducting research for them so we
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we do opinion polls and we do focus
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groups which are published for clients
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or
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for private in the same way that you go
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for ipsos mario whoever would do
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and a large part of what we do involves
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uh pollings we're going to talk about
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and doing focus suite work with
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what are variously called skilled
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working class lower middle class
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traditional labor c1c2 voters
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that's the large part what we do right
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great so
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um so public first obviously a name that
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many people working in education may not
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have heard of
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but um maybe the work that you do can
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shed some interesting light on some of
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the decisions that you
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talk about because in this post that you
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you wrote together last week
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you came up with what to me sounds
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perfectly
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obvious um but it's not something that
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you necessarily think about until it's
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articulated that
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if you're a politician wanting to make
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any kind of policy announcement
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it should be uh it should some in some
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way improve outcomes but it also needs
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to be popular
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if it's not both of those things then
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you've got a problem and then he also
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um ed i wonder if you could tell us a
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little about a bit about this because
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you said
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there's a real difficulty for opposition
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um in working out what's popular and
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what's going to improve outcomes
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can you tell us what why that is
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oh well they have to have a series of
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different masters don't know
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they've got their political masters
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they've got um electoral masters they've
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got
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constituencies within their party that
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they have to play to
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and and the uh the
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comments that you're alluding to from
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kate green whose shadow education
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secretary
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in my my former um my former newspaper
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the times ed
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um in which she uh is that beer
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well i
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is that one of your props yeah just a
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prop just to make you
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just put you off it certainly did
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um kay green talks about this problem
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that she perceives as a joyless
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curriculum
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and she says it's one of the profound
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problems of english education
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she presumably is alluding to michael
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gove's curriculum reforms of the early
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2010s
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and she says that kids don't enjoy
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learning and if they don't enjoy
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learning they won't learn
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um and it is on lots of levels talking
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to a kind of core
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metropolitan um voter
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characterized as being north london but
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i don't think it's talking
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as jonathan's uh piece which i help with
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um
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kind of outlines extensively it's not
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talking
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to what the overwhelming majority of
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voters care about
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when it comes to education right
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okay so so let's let's talk about about
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kate green's
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um well i think you've referred to it as
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joyless gate
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um so let's just take a little snippet
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of
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uh what she said so she's she says we've
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got a curriculum now that's
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information heavy it's traditionalist in
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its approach and while of course
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you do want children to acquire a high
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level of basic essential skills
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they need all through their lives and
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for the future
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education has become a bit joyless and
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that's not the fault of school so
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she's careful not uh not to throw
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schools under the bus here
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um so you say that that's not
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gonna necessarily go down well with with
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um
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voters why not what is it that voters
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want jonathan
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well i mean voters want a whole bunch of
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stuff and part of the difficulty when
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you're
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setting policy is that voters are
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contradictory because humans are
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contradictory and
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you know you've written literally
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written books on this
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and the psychology of it and how people
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hold different things within their heads
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at the moment
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i think the main critique i have of the
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analysis
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is partly in the words that she used and
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you know
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they were clearly very jargon heavy
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words and people who spend their lives
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involved in education policy
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know what those words mean and they can
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debate them but talking about things
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like traditionalist is not a word that i
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don't think i've ever heard
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of a normal person in the focus you've
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ever used it's not a
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it's not a normal term so my first my
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first point is that she's not drawing
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this from inside
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from voters or people on the street or
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people in her constituency which is
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often where opposition parties draw from
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this is a
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very westminster-based discourse and
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it's a controversial one even within
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westminster
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in terms of more broadly what voters
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think i mean the fundamental point is
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yes of course they want their children
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to be joyful
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although they've never used that word
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they'd use the word happy yeah
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that is probably the single most
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important thing that most parents
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want from their children and it's a word
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that comes up spontaneously all the time
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when you ask you know what do you want
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from your kid in school i want them to
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be happy
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yeah i don't think those are in dispute
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so so in the sense of
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you know is she arguing that she wants
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kids to be happy sure but that's also
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another
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apple pie there is no single politician
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that doesn't want voters
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children to be happy in school the
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question is about how you get it and
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where i really
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drew the line is i i think on a policy
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level
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you can't draw the line between
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curriculum and happiness
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but also politically i don't think most
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parents
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in fact i i i would go so fast and say
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almost no parent does draw a line
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between a particular curriculum model
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a particular pedagogical model and their
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children's happiness
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occasionally people will say i worry
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about uh children's exams and i worry
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that my child is doing some
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exams and i worry he or she is stressed
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and revising and occasionally people
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will
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they'll never use the phrase but they'll
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talk about the narrowing of the
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curriculum
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um so there is i wouldn't want to over
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emphasize there is some element of
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parental discourse around
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a narrowing of a curriculum but to make
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the assertion that the curriculum is
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joyless
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and that is what leads to children being
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unhappy i just don't think it's remotely
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evidenced
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no i mean that's an interesting point
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because i mean we i think we're all
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parents aren't we here and certainly
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when i think about you know what i want
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from my
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uh children's education happy and safe
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pretty high up there
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you know i don't get on my pedagogical
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horse um to sort of
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you know and tilt against the schools
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that they go to there i'm
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firmly focused on their as you say their
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their safety and happiness
00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:11.829
so but you also say um that
00:11:11.839 --> 00:11:13.430
parents are really interested in high
00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:15.990
academic standards
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.630
yeah can you tell us sorry jonathan yeah
00:11:18.640 --> 00:11:20.230
carry on
00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:23.590
so so yes absolutely and again
00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:25.590
this is not this is not mutually
00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:26.949
exclusive with children
00:11:26.959 --> 00:11:29.190
uh wanting to have fun and enjoy
00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:30.949
themselves and parents are also big on
00:11:30.959 --> 00:11:33.430
extracurricular activities but
00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:36.150
parents want their children to do well
00:11:36.160 --> 00:11:36.710
and by
00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:39.990
well they almost always mean high
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:41.430
academic standards they want their
00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:43.350
children to do well in exams
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:44.790
they want their children to do well in
00:11:44.800 --> 00:11:46.470
exams principally because it's secondary
00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:47.190
level
00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:49.350
yeah almost every single parent
00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:50.550
expresses a
00:11:50.560 --> 00:11:52.230
an in principle desire for their child
00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:53.670
to go to university
00:11:53.680 --> 00:11:55.110
and there's academic research from the
00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:56.949
millennium cohort study which says that
00:11:56.959 --> 00:11:59.990
something like 97 of mothers at birth
00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:01.190
say that they'd like their child to go
00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:03.110
to university obviously as children get
00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:04.870
older and parents have a more accurate
00:12:04.880 --> 00:12:06.230
assessment of where their child is that
00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:07.430
number drops but
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.990
i would i would say comfortably the
00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:11.590
majority of parents still say they'd
00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:13.190
like their child to go to university and
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:14.389
if they don't they say they want them to
00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:16.069
do an apprenticeship
00:12:16.079 --> 00:12:17.509
hardly anyone ever says they want their
00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:19.269
child to go to an e college for better
00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:19.990
or worse
00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:22.470
um most parents tend to say they want
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.150
their child to do well and even if well
00:12:24.160 --> 00:12:25.509
in their definition is
00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:26.949
i want sometimes i'll say things like i
00:12:26.959 --> 00:12:29.030
want them to get to trade or i want them
00:12:29.040 --> 00:12:30.230
to go and
00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:32.310
go and start work immediately they'll
00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:33.829
still associate that with
00:12:33.839 --> 00:12:36.230
with academics not the right word
00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:37.590
they'll still associate that with
00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:38.470
success
00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:40.629
parents have high expectations for their
00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:41.910
children uh
00:12:41.920 --> 00:12:45.269
and it is very rare that a parent will
00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:47.829
um will accept that their child is not
00:12:47.839 --> 00:12:48.550
doing that
00:12:48.560 --> 00:12:50.550
well and and it's even rarer
00:12:50.560 --> 00:12:52.310
incidentally they blame the school for
00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:53.910
that which is an interesting public
00:12:53.920 --> 00:12:55.030
policy conundrum
00:12:55.040 --> 00:12:57.350
uh it's very very rare in a focus group
00:12:57.360 --> 00:12:59.590
that parents will outwardly attack their
00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:00.870
child's school
00:13:00.880 --> 00:13:03.110
even when all empirical data was just on
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:03.990
the face of it
00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:05.590
that their child does not go to a good
00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:07.990
school parents are almost
00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:10.310
always loathed to criticize the school
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.030
yeah i was surprised
00:13:13.040 --> 00:13:15.350
i slightly disagree with jonathan oh
00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:17.990
okay i think that's true of primary
00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:20.629
undoubtedly i think it's less true at
00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:21.430
secondary
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:23.190
i think the loyalty parents have to
00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:24.710
their kids primary
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:27.190
is profound you know they they will not
00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:29.750
have a word set against it in large part
00:13:29.760 --> 00:13:31.430
secondary i think is a bit more nuanced
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:32.949
but i mean we can we can possibly
00:13:32.959 --> 00:13:34.069
disagree on that
00:13:34.079 --> 00:13:36.230
those are different groups that we do
00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:37.590
and but just to just reiterate what
00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:38.550
jonathan says
00:13:38.560 --> 00:13:40.230
you know they want high academic
00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:41.829
standards they they want their kids to
00:13:41.839 --> 00:13:43.750
do well in exams it is really very
00:13:43.760 --> 00:13:45.110
simple
00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:46.710
they want to have a feeling they want to
00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:48.069
feel like their kids are doing as well
00:13:48.079 --> 00:13:49.350
as they possibly can do
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:52.389
in those exams and then actually
00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:54.230
increasingly you do get that you get a
00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:56.230
lot of um certainly when we do specific
00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:57.430
groups with parents who are
00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:59.990
non-graduates obviously if you do
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:01.430
so just to give a bit of background for
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:02.710
people who don't know how focus groups
00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:03.269
work
00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:05.750
and almost always when we do a focus
00:14:05.760 --> 00:14:06.710
group we go for
00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:09.030
a carefully selected subgroup of the
00:14:09.040 --> 00:14:09.910
population
00:14:09.920 --> 00:14:12.470
so we will do a focus group of primary
00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:14.470
age parents or we'll do a focus group
00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:17.110
of uh unemployed parents or parents
00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:18.710
who've been on furlough or
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:20.470
parents who will work in banking for
00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:22.150
example so it won't it won't just be
00:14:22.160 --> 00:14:23.509
six or eight random people off the
00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:25.509
street they will all have an element in
00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:25.990
common
00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:27.990
and often you run a series of focus
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:30.069
groups where you change the variable so
00:14:30.079 --> 00:14:31.829
we will have two focus groups on the
00:14:31.839 --> 00:14:32.310
topic
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:34.069
one focus group primary age parents one
00:14:34.079 --> 00:14:35.590
with secondary age parents and then you
00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:35.910
can
00:14:35.920 --> 00:14:38.870
isolate what the differences are so very
00:14:38.880 --> 00:14:40.069
often when we do
00:14:40.079 --> 00:14:41.590
uh groups with parents if they're
00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:43.110
education groups they'll be
00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:45.590
they'll have something in common uh and
00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:46.710
and there's lots of different ways of
00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:47.269
that
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:49.350
and the reason why i say that is because
00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:50.389
and
00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:53.110
quite often we do what we what we call
00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:54.870
c1 c2 groups these are sort of
00:14:54.880 --> 00:14:56.389
lower lower middle class upper working
00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:58.710
class groups uh these are people who are
00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:00.150
working in
00:15:00.160 --> 00:15:02.150
reasonably low paid occupation you get a
00:15:02.160 --> 00:15:03.430
lot of them who work in things like
00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:04.550
local government
00:15:04.560 --> 00:15:06.790
uh these are not people who are
00:15:06.800 --> 00:15:08.550
precariat they're not sort of churning
00:15:08.560 --> 00:15:10.069
in and out of manual labor this is sort
00:15:10.079 --> 00:15:11.590
of semi-skilled labor
00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:13.509
people who are but very often these
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:16.470
parents don't have degrees themselves
00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.550
um and you get a lot
00:15:20.560 --> 00:15:22.949
of i want my kids to do better than i
00:15:22.959 --> 00:15:24.310
did i don't want my kids to make the
00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:26.310
same mistakes i did i don't want my kids
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:27.829
to struggle in the same way that i don't
00:15:27.839 --> 00:15:29.189
every pen obviously always wants the
00:15:29.199 --> 00:15:30.790
best of their children but it tends to
00:15:30.800 --> 00:15:33.509
be actually articulated very profoundly
00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:35.110
by parents who've not had a good
00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:36.629
educational experience
00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:38.710
and they simultaneously hold the view
00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:40.069
that they themselves
00:15:40.079 --> 00:15:42.310
are often quite nervous of their child's
00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:43.910
school and you see there's a lot in the
00:15:43.920 --> 00:15:45.430
literature around parents involvement in
00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:46.870
their child's education
00:15:46.880 --> 00:15:48.150
they're very nervous of the school
00:15:48.160 --> 00:15:50.069
they're quite deferential to the school
00:15:50.079 --> 00:15:51.749
that is not mutually exclusive as ed
00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:53.110
says when they fall out
00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:54.470
falling out properly with the school but
00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:55.430
most of the time they're quite
00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:56.150
deferential
00:15:56.160 --> 00:15:57.749
but they desperately desperately want
00:15:57.759 --> 00:15:59.350
their children to succeed it's quite
00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:00.389
rare
00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:02.389
that you have a sort of i did badly in
00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:04.150
school it's all a waste of time i don't
00:16:04.160 --> 00:16:05.749
care what my kid does at school
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:07.110
that's really interesting there's i
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.350
think there's a perception uh
00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:11.670
certainly amongst teachers that uh in
00:16:11.680 --> 00:16:13.829
secondary schools uh i can't speak for
00:16:13.839 --> 00:16:15.509
primary teachers but in secondary
00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:16.870
schools there's often the perception
00:16:16.880 --> 00:16:17.590
that
00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:19.590
the there are is a certain sort of
00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:21.030
parent that sort of
00:16:21.040 --> 00:16:22.629
struggled at school and therefore
00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:24.230
they're passing on a kind of like
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:25.590
school's a bit rubbish
00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:27.749
don't don't don't don't worry about them
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:28.629
that lot
00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:31.189
uh you know be more like me and there's
00:16:31.199 --> 00:16:31.990
there's a sort of us
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:34.870
and them um feeling uh but you're saying
00:16:34.880 --> 00:16:35.509
that that's not
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:37.430
borne out by the sort of conversations
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:39.110
that you have with parents
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:41.670
i i i have rarely ever come across that
00:16:41.680 --> 00:16:43.030
in a focus group and i've done
00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:46.069
a lot in the last six months um
00:16:46.079 --> 00:16:49.509
what the one caveat is the demographic
00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:51.749
that jonathan talks about the pr
00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.870
uh the precariat as it calls them um
00:16:54.880 --> 00:16:57.829
we're we're in in small towns often with
00:16:57.839 --> 00:16:58.230
with
00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:01.110
a small number of schools where the
00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:02.310
system has failed
00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:05.829
um intergenerationally where
00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:08.470
where where the where where the parents
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:09.750
would have gone to the same school that
00:17:09.760 --> 00:17:11.669
their children are going to
00:17:11.679 --> 00:17:14.069
then you will find in focus groups and
00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:15.270
elsewhere
00:17:15.280 --> 00:17:17.189
um some of the stuff that you're talking
00:17:17.199 --> 00:17:18.789
about but i don't think it's anything
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:21.189
like as widespread as as
00:17:21.199 --> 00:17:25.350
as perhaps as perceived
00:17:25.360 --> 00:17:27.510
fascinating interview martin uh well
00:17:27.520 --> 00:17:28.390
worth
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.070
people subscribing so they can be
00:17:30.080 --> 00:17:31.990
notified when the full interview comes
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:33.350
out later in the week
00:17:33.360 --> 00:17:35.430
they go on to reveal amongst other
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:36.390
things that
00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:41.270
parents love ofsted
00:17:41.280 --> 00:17:44.070
who knew are you talking about parents
00:17:44.080 --> 00:17:44.549
who aren't
00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:47.270
teachers perhaps well particularly the
00:17:47.280 --> 00:17:48.870
parents that they're talking about about
00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:50.630
these c1c2 parents
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:52.870
that's the the group that they're that
00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:54.230
they're particularly invested
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:57.110
in finding out about and in the focus
00:17:57.120 --> 00:17:57.590
groups
00:17:57.600 --> 00:17:59.590
that they do it comes up time and time
00:17:59.600 --> 00:18:01.270
again that that
00:18:01.280 --> 00:18:03.350
the parents really trust they really
00:18:03.360 --> 00:18:05.590
respond to they're really interested in
00:18:05.600 --> 00:18:07.750
um ofsted and their reports of schools
00:18:07.760 --> 00:18:09.510
and they really use their reports
00:18:09.520 --> 00:18:12.310
so that's uh you know we can often be uh
00:18:12.320 --> 00:18:14.310
scathing and sniffy about ofsted but
00:18:14.320 --> 00:18:15.430
it's it's just really worth
00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.470
no remembering that uh that not all
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:20.710
sections of society respond the same way
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:21.510
to things
00:18:21.520 --> 00:18:23.270
and you know jonathan um in the
00:18:23.280 --> 00:18:25.029
interview talked about that
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:27.190
this particular group of parents make up
00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:28.630
it's not it's not a tiny minority
00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:30.150
appearance they make up about
00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.190
30 odd percent of the population and
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.510
uh and they are perhaps quite a
00:18:35.520 --> 00:18:37.190
neglected voice
00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:39.990
that don't make it into mainstream
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:41.990
discourse a lot of the time
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:43.909
it's it's interesting how of course
00:18:43.919 --> 00:18:45.669
every child
00:18:45.679 --> 00:18:47.590
we want every child sorry to be happy at
00:18:47.600 --> 00:18:50.070
school and parents really respond to
00:18:50.080 --> 00:18:51.270
that
00:18:51.280 --> 00:18:53.909
but parents seem perhaps ignorant of
00:18:53.919 --> 00:18:54.630
curriculum
00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:56.310
perhaps they don't know what curriculum
00:18:56.320 --> 00:18:58.230
is but happiness matters more but of
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.150
course every parent has been to school
00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:00.470
and
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:02.310
can remember their own happiness or
00:19:02.320 --> 00:19:04.070
misery at school but
00:19:04.080 --> 00:19:05.909
are they not remembering the curriculum
00:19:05.919 --> 00:19:08.150
going homework and saying oh that's not
00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:10.070
how we did maths when i was younger
00:19:10.080 --> 00:19:11.270
well it's interesting isn't it because i
00:19:11.280 --> 00:19:14.390
think parents can talk about subjects
00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:15.990
and they can talk about topics and that
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:17.990
sort of thing but i think back to my
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:19.590
time at school nobody spoke about
00:19:19.600 --> 00:19:21.909
the curriculum in a way which i as a
00:19:21.919 --> 00:19:23.029
student would have been able to
00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:24.789
recognize and articulate so
00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:28.070
if without having had a uh worked in
00:19:28.080 --> 00:19:29.990
schools and as a teacher i'd i
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.430
probably it's not a term i'd probably be
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.669
using so that's one thing to bear in
00:19:33.679 --> 00:19:34.630
mind
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:37.750
so i think parents probably very very
00:19:37.760 --> 00:19:39.350
concerned about
00:19:39.360 --> 00:19:42.390
maths and english but
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:44.390
we didn't get on to talk about it about
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:45.750
how they feel about
00:19:45.760 --> 00:19:47.430
the arts and that sort of thing but
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:49.190
obviously that's that's something that
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:50.310
you've teased out
00:19:50.320 --> 00:19:53.430
a little bit in your interview with mr
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:54.950
pembroke
00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:57.669
yeah we're talking mainly about the
00:19:57.679 --> 00:20:00.070
sunday times came up with the
00:20:00.080 --> 00:20:03.350
top 500 primary schools and prep schools
00:20:03.360 --> 00:20:04.470
in the country
00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:06.870
which it does every year um and puts
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:07.830
them into a league
00:20:07.840 --> 00:20:10.070
table of course and at the top you see a
00:20:10.080 --> 00:20:10.870
certain school
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:13.590
and all the way down well still top 500
00:20:13.600 --> 00:20:15.029
so you're doing well so there's lots of
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:16.549
schools not in it
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:19.750
and mr pembroke james pembroke is is
00:20:19.760 --> 00:20:22.950
the data fiend school data fiend um
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:25.990
who um loves looking at data and trying
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:27.270
to tease out
00:20:27.280 --> 00:20:29.909
what data is worthwhile and it's a it's
00:20:29.919 --> 00:20:31.430
a great look at
00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:33.270
what happens in primary schools in
00:20:33.280 --> 00:20:34.870
particular
00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:37.750
around data and what data primary
00:20:37.760 --> 00:20:38.630
schools should be
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.830
looking at to perhaps pass on to parents
00:20:41.840 --> 00:20:43.029
which to say you know
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:46.710
progress perhaps or or is it our spag
00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:48.070
scores that matter
00:20:48.080 --> 00:20:50.950
is it grammar that matters over maths
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:52.789
for instance or whatever it happens to
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:55.110
be but yeah we have a great chat about
00:20:55.120 --> 00:20:55.909
it
00:20:55.919 --> 00:20:59.029
have a look yeah and now we're going to
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:00.230
waste some time with
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.830
james pembroke who's um james how the
00:21:03.840 --> 00:21:09.830
devil
00:21:09.840 --> 00:21:11.909
and now we're going to waste some time
00:21:11.919 --> 00:21:13.510
with james pembroke
00:21:13.520 --> 00:21:17.110
who's um james how the devil are you
00:21:17.120 --> 00:21:20.470
i'm all right mate i'm up in my loft
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:23.350
yeah tucked away reading stuff it's very
00:21:23.360 --> 00:21:24.710
very romantic it's like
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:32.310
an artist's garrett up there ah if only
00:21:32.320 --> 00:21:35.430
yeah more like it yeah we thought we'd
00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:36.470
talk to you today
00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:38.710
particularly about primary assessment
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:40.470
because the sunday times
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:43.909
last week brought out a ranking of the
00:21:43.919 --> 00:21:44.310
top
00:21:44.320 --> 00:21:48.070
5 or 600 top 500 english state primary
00:21:48.080 --> 00:21:49.270
schools
00:21:49.280 --> 00:21:52.149
and they broke them down by average
00:21:52.159 --> 00:21:54.549
scaled scores so the top one which is
00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:57.270
mayflower primary school in london
00:21:57.280 --> 00:21:59.270
they got a reading average scale score
00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:00.549
of 114
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.950
grammar 118 and maths 114
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:09.190
and the total therefore was 346
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.230
and that's out of key stage 2 eligible
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:12.950
pupils of
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.510
50 eligible pupils that was that makes
00:22:15.520 --> 00:22:16.149
them
00:22:16.159 --> 00:22:18.390
the top primary school in the country
00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:20.789
according to the sunday times
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.510
is that a good way of judging what the
00:22:23.520 --> 00:22:25.029
top primary school in the country
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:29.350
might be no
00:22:29.360 --> 00:22:32.070
no i mean look for them great you know
00:22:32.080 --> 00:22:33.830
those are very those are
00:22:33.840 --> 00:22:37.350
um um definitely high results so their
00:22:37.360 --> 00:22:38.470
attainment
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:42.230
uh is high but it's just sort of
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.070
it's a very shallow level it's not
00:22:44.080 --> 00:22:45.510
really recognizing
00:22:45.520 --> 00:22:47.669
anything else that schools are doing so
00:22:47.679 --> 00:22:49.510
if you're just going to rank schools in
00:22:49.520 --> 00:22:50.549
order by their
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:52.789
average scaled scores then you're
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:54.470
ignoring everything around
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:56.310
the progress the start points of
00:22:56.320 --> 00:22:58.549
children uh disadvantaged their
00:22:58.559 --> 00:22:59.430
backgrounds
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:02.230
i tweeted about this about uh i assume i
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:02.710
was just
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:05.029
being sarcastic joking i assume that
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:06.230
this is based on
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:07.270
because there was some chatter about it
00:23:07.280 --> 00:23:08.870
on twitter i assume this is based on
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:09.750
inclusion
00:23:09.760 --> 00:23:13.270
send and eal language provision
00:23:13.280 --> 00:23:15.510
uh support for the most disadvantaged
00:23:15.520 --> 00:23:16.390
children
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:19.830
community links interventions
00:23:19.840 --> 00:23:21.590
you know all these other strategies i
00:23:21.600 --> 00:23:23.590
assume it's based on that but of course
00:23:23.600 --> 00:23:24.070
it's not
00:23:24.080 --> 00:23:27.350
it's just based on the outcome in a test
00:23:27.360 --> 00:23:31.990
um and it it's not a true reflection of
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.230
what schools do and what they're all
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:36.390
about it's just the outcome of a test at
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:37.350
the end of
00:23:37.360 --> 00:23:40.070
key stage two and there'll be there are
00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:40.390
some
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.870
absolutely brilliant primary schools uh
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:44.390
that won't be
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.430
um recognized in those those rankings
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.110
and they do all sorts of great things
00:23:49.120 --> 00:23:50.950
and we've heard it during this lockdown
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:52.470
we've heard some amazing things about
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:54.470
what primary schools are doing to
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:55.269
support
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:57.110
children very very disadvantaged
00:23:57.120 --> 00:23:58.870
children in their communities
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:01.350
there's more to it than average scaled
00:24:01.360 --> 00:24:03.029
schools
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:04.950
but if i'm a parent which funnily enough
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:06.149
i am but um
00:24:06.159 --> 00:24:08.310
no longer of primary age but i want to
00:24:08.320 --> 00:24:09.990
know if the primary school
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:13.029
down the road from me is any good and if
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:13.909
my
00:24:13.919 --> 00:24:17.110
offspring will do well academically
00:24:17.120 --> 00:24:18.710
after all that's one of the major
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:20.789
reasons for going to school not all but
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:22.549
but one of the major reasons and we'll
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:22.870
be
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:25.029
and i'm going to use this term advisedly
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:26.630
secondary ready
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.269
yeah secretary ready what else should i
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:30.149
look for
00:24:30.159 --> 00:24:33.669
well uh i suppose
00:24:33.679 --> 00:24:35.350
okay yeah it's fair point you know that
00:24:35.360 --> 00:24:36.870
the government used to use that phrase
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:38.870
secondary ready i remember overhearing a
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:40.630
conversation i live in an area where
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:41.830
there are grammar schools
00:24:41.840 --> 00:24:44.070
and for some parents their focus is on
00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:45.510
getting their child into
00:24:45.520 --> 00:24:47.269
a grammar school i remember overhearing
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:48.549
a conversation
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:50.630
um where where they these are young
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:52.310
parents of very young children
00:24:52.320 --> 00:24:54.870
talking about where to send their uh
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:56.149
their child in our
00:24:56.159 --> 00:24:58.630
area uh and the relative merits of two
00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:00.310
schools which are both quite high
00:25:00.320 --> 00:25:02.310
performing and one parent says
00:25:02.320 --> 00:25:04.870
well that school is far more into the i
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:07.430
quote artsy fartsy stuff
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:09.669
uh and the other parent said well that's
00:25:09.679 --> 00:25:10.870
not going to get me to the grammar
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:12.470
school is it
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:14.630
and i'm thinking i quite like that artsy
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:15.830
fartsy stuff
00:25:15.840 --> 00:25:18.390
i quite like the fact my my children
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:19.029
well
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:22.070
i'll identify the school actually so i
00:25:22.080 --> 00:25:23.430
think it's pretty anyone who knows me
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:24.870
probably knows which one i'm talking
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:25.750
about
00:25:25.760 --> 00:25:28.549
but i like the artsy fartsy stuff i like
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:30.310
the idea of my children coming home
00:25:30.320 --> 00:25:32.149
with paint on their sleeves and dirt on
00:25:32.159 --> 00:25:34.549
their knees i like that
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:38.470
i i don't i i'm not that bothered i
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:40.390
yes i want them to do well i want them
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:41.909
to be taught well i want them to be
00:25:41.919 --> 00:25:43.750
secondary ready i want them to go on to
00:25:43.760 --> 00:25:45.190
secondary school and do well
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:47.350
but there is more to it there's more to
00:25:47.360 --> 00:25:48.630
primary education
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:51.110
than just the outcomes in reading maths
00:25:51.120 --> 00:25:52.230
spag
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:55.430
there is and and i suppose you could get
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:57.990
really high results by focusing on those
00:25:58.000 --> 00:25:58.710
things
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:00.230
um at the expense of the wider
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:02.390
curriculum
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:04.230
right i like the wider curriculum could
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:05.909
be top of the rankings
00:26:05.919 --> 00:26:08.950
by narrowing its curriculum for example
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:12.549
well i i yes you could be you could be
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:14.789
you could be spending uh all of i and
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:16.710
i'm not suggesting that is the case here
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:18.070
you know i'm not but i
00:26:18.080 --> 00:26:21.190
but you could spend all of year six
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:23.750
uh practicing sets just doing them over
00:26:23.760 --> 00:26:25.110
and over again and there are schools
00:26:25.120 --> 00:26:26.870
that have done this and in fact some
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:28.710
schools i think were
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:30.310
there are some schools where it crept
00:26:30.320 --> 00:26:32.710
down into year five where sats practice
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:34.470
the practice of previous year's papers
00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:34.789
was
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:36.310
was happening in you know towards the
00:26:36.320 --> 00:26:38.870
end of year five and that's
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:41.350
that's a bit sad really that almost like
00:26:41.360 --> 00:26:42.470
you know
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:44.630
the rest of the curriculum can be well
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:47.190
not suspended but reduced
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.590
and of course you understand it when
00:26:49.600 --> 00:26:51.669
you've got performance tables so that's
00:26:51.679 --> 00:26:53.269
one of my big bug bits really is the
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:54.950
performance tables
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:56.149
where you put these results out in the
00:26:56.159 --> 00:26:57.990
public domain which is where the times
00:26:58.000 --> 00:26:59.750
and local papers do there's local papers
00:26:59.760 --> 00:27:00.950
will take those results
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:02.390
and they come up with their own kind of
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.549
weird sort of scoring systems and
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:06.549
waiting systems in order to rank schools
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:07.190
in order
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:08.950
and then and then they publicize in a
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:10.710
double page spread and they they
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:12.390
rag rate them says red schools and
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:13.750
orange schools and green schools and
00:27:13.760 --> 00:27:15.029
things and this happens up and down the
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:16.070
country every year
00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:17.990
and it's based on the output in those
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.510
performance tables
00:27:19.520 --> 00:27:23.430
um but my worry about the performance
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:24.149
tables is
00:27:24.159 --> 00:27:26.549
putting data out there into the public
00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:27.269
domain
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:30.789
supposedly to help parents make choices
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:34.389
about schools but it's just
00:27:34.399 --> 00:27:38.549
numbers color coded with a descriptor
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:40.549
on the top saying below average average
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:41.990
above average
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:43.909
no real explanation about how these
00:27:43.919 --> 00:27:45.909
things are calculated no context
00:27:45.919 --> 00:27:46.950
so there should be some
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:48.789
contextualization of that data before
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:50.310
you even drill down into the data but no
00:27:50.320 --> 00:27:52.470
you look click on the chart the school's
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:56.070
um you you click on the school's uh
00:27:56.080 --> 00:27:57.590
page in the performance tables and it
00:27:57.600 --> 00:27:59.110
takes you straight to the numbers
00:27:59.120 --> 00:28:00.870
straight to the rag rating straight to
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:02.950
the descriptor the band
00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:04.310
and that's what you focus on and you
00:28:04.320 --> 00:28:06.230
look at and the parent is
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:07.430
understandably going to look at and go
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:08.950
oh so they're below average i've seen
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:09.909
schools where they're
00:28:09.919 --> 00:28:13.269
um above average in writing but below
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:14.710
average in reading
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.590
um and and parents aren't going to know
00:28:17.600 --> 00:28:17.990
that
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:20.950
that the reading data is based on a test
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.389
whereas the writing data
00:28:22.399 --> 00:28:25.590
is based on a teacher assessment
00:28:25.600 --> 00:28:28.230
yeah weird how you could be very high in
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:29.830
a non-tested subject in a
00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:32.070
teacher-assessed subject but very low
00:28:32.080 --> 00:28:34.070
um well below significantly below
00:28:34.080 --> 00:28:35.830
average in a tested subject
00:28:35.840 --> 00:28:38.789
hmm you know that's interesting one
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:40.710
wonder why i wonder how that happens
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:45.350
yeah but it happens a lot do you think
00:28:45.360 --> 00:28:47.269
the fact that it's high stakes for
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:48.789
schools but not for
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:52.389
pupils is part of the problem
00:28:52.399 --> 00:28:55.350
i think it can be high stakes for pupils
00:28:55.360 --> 00:28:57.669
when that stress is passed down
00:28:57.679 --> 00:29:00.230
if you are test if you are practicing
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:01.269
sats
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:03.990
um on the first day the first week of
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:04.870
september
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:07.510
um when you get into year six and then
00:29:07.520 --> 00:29:08.149
again
00:29:08.159 --> 00:29:10.230
and then again and then again at some
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:11.190
point you're going to think
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:14.789
this is a big deal actually in some
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:15.430
cases
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:17.190
i'm going to refer to grammar schools in
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:19.190
some areas
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:20.789
that's not what's done into them by the
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:22.549
parents the parents might be saying
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:23.669
don't worry about science that's not
00:29:23.679 --> 00:29:25.190
important it's the grammar school test
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:26.389
that's really important
00:29:26.399 --> 00:29:29.510
you've don't screw that up that's where
00:29:29.520 --> 00:29:30.549
you want to do really well
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:31.669
don't worry about the stats that's for
00:29:31.679 --> 00:29:33.350
the schools but i think there are
00:29:33.360 --> 00:29:33.909
children
00:29:33.919 --> 00:29:35.750
i i think on the whole children cope
00:29:35.760 --> 00:29:37.029
very well uh
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:39.029
with sats it's it's fine they get on
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:41.669
with it but inevitably in some schools
00:29:41.679 --> 00:29:43.190
there's more pressure than in others
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:44.870
and for some children it's more
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:46.389
stressful than it is for others you know
00:29:46.399 --> 00:29:47.029
they're only
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:51.350
11 years old you've um talked about the
00:29:51.360 --> 00:29:54.549
perhaps alternative ways of
00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:57.190
holding schools to account for education
00:29:57.200 --> 00:29:57.669
via
00:29:57.679 --> 00:30:00.149
things like sampling perhaps well if you
00:30:00.159 --> 00:30:01.669
sample you're not holding schools to
00:30:01.679 --> 00:30:02.710
account really
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:05.510
um sampling is to try and ascertain
00:30:05.520 --> 00:30:06.950
national standards so
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:09.750
we do this for science at key stage two
00:30:09.760 --> 00:30:11.350
there are sample tests
00:30:11.360 --> 00:30:12.870
where they'll take a percentage of
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:14.630
schools and the children will do a
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:15.510
sample test
00:30:15.520 --> 00:30:17.269
and what's really interesting is that
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:19.029
the uh percentage of children that meet
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:19.909
expected some
00:30:19.919 --> 00:30:22.149
uh standards on those science sample
00:30:22.159 --> 00:30:24.070
tests is really low
00:30:24.080 --> 00:30:25.750
i don't know isn't it something like 30
00:30:25.760 --> 00:30:28.230
odd percent meet the expected standard
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:31.029
which kind of throws some questions out
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:31.909
there about
00:30:31.919 --> 00:30:34.310
uh how well science is being taught in
00:30:34.320 --> 00:30:36.070
in primary schools possibly
00:30:36.080 --> 00:30:38.630
um but the percentage but but schools do
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:40.070
have to so they don't do a test degree
00:30:40.080 --> 00:30:41.750
of science they may do if they're called
00:30:41.760 --> 00:30:42.310
to do a
00:30:42.320 --> 00:30:44.149
take part in the sample but they do have
00:30:44.159 --> 00:30:45.830
to submit a teacher assessment
00:30:45.840 --> 00:30:47.510
every year all schools submit a teacher
00:30:47.520 --> 00:30:50.389
assessment and it plays second fiddle
00:30:50.399 --> 00:30:54.470
to um to to reading writing and maths
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:57.190
but they they do this they submit the
00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:59.269
the data is basically a binary
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:01.350
do they have they or have they not met
00:31:01.360 --> 00:31:03.029
the expected standard yes or no
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:04.950
there's no more subtlety than that it
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:06.310
says literally yes or no
00:31:06.320 --> 00:31:07.990
they met it now the percentage of
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:09.509
children that meet the expected standard
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:11.029
according to the teacher assessment is
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:11.509
like
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:14.389
80 odd percent really high yet the
00:31:14.399 --> 00:31:15.990
percentage that meet it in the test is
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:16.830
about 30
00:31:16.840 --> 00:31:19.750
percent so there is a huge
00:31:19.760 --> 00:31:22.070
difference between those who pass it on
00:31:22.080 --> 00:31:23.509
the test and those who pass it in terms
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:24.230
of you know
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.430
on the teacher assessment um yeah so
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:29.669
yeah so something makes makes it like
00:31:29.679 --> 00:31:31.029
you say nationally
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:33.990
makes an interesting picture for us we
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:35.990
can't hold individual schools to account
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:37.269
through that because the
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:39.190
the numbers would be so low i mean well
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:40.389
you would only be able to
00:31:40.399 --> 00:31:42.070
hold those schools to account if they've
00:31:42.080 --> 00:31:44.310
been sampled so i suppose that the
00:31:44.320 --> 00:31:45.990
question is do we really need to
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:46.870
i'm not saying there shouldn't be
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:48.470
accountability because there should be i
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:49.830
mean i remember some saying it's like
00:31:49.840 --> 00:31:53.029
it's the second biggest budget um after
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:55.110
um after health is that right you know
00:31:55.120 --> 00:31:57.430
it's uh it's it's an enormous
00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:59.110
uh budget it's an almost amount of money
00:31:59.120 --> 00:32:01.430
and and uh i i get that you can't just
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:02.310
like
00:32:02.320 --> 00:32:06.549
not have any accountability but um
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:10.470
if we are to have key stage two
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:13.350
tests and i'm not saying get rid of them
00:32:13.360 --> 00:32:15.190
i'm not necessarily saying that sampling
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.029
is the right answer
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:18.630
should we be putting that data in the
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:20.549
public domain that's one thing
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:22.070
because if it's not in the public domain
00:32:22.080 --> 00:32:23.830
that would make it harder for
00:32:23.840 --> 00:32:25.909
newspapers to get hold of it it would be
00:32:25.919 --> 00:32:27.350
harder for you know parents won't be
00:32:27.360 --> 00:32:28.310
able to see
00:32:28.320 --> 00:32:30.789
um the results uh or do create these
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:32.230
comparison tables
00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:33.909
i guess that schools would say i know
00:32:33.919 --> 00:32:35.110
schools might have to put it on their
00:32:35.120 --> 00:32:37.029
websites but but you've got ofsted
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:39.269
you know schools are visited by ofsted
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:41.269
ofsted is part of that accountability
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:43.669
regime you know that uh
00:32:43.679 --> 00:32:45.190
i just don't know if we should be
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:47.029
putting data out there
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:49.590
that people are using to make inferences
00:32:49.600 --> 00:32:51.110
about schools
00:32:51.120 --> 00:32:52.389
but they don't really understand the
00:32:52.399 --> 00:32:54.870
data that's my problem
00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:56.310
it's a funny thing with the sort of
00:32:56.320 --> 00:32:57.990
tension between ofsted and
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:01.509
and sort of the these key stage two sats
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:03.430
results of course is the
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:05.190
one encourages you to narrow the
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:06.789
curriculum and the other one wants you
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:09.509
to expand the curriculum and be
00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:11.590
you know and those two are loggerheads
00:33:11.600 --> 00:33:13.590
perhaps absolutely i mean ofsted
00:33:13.600 --> 00:33:15.430
uh will say you know we expect to come
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:16.789
in and see a broad and balanced
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:18.230
curriculum and all this but
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:20.870
but they but they produce every year a
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:22.710
document called the inspection data
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:25.269
summary report the idsr which thankfully
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:25.990
mercifully
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:27.830
is only six pages long these days it's
00:33:27.840 --> 00:33:29.110
been on a bit of a journey
00:33:29.120 --> 00:33:31.190
this document remember the days of raise
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:32.950
online a raise report was over a hundred
00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:33.830
pages long
00:33:33.840 --> 00:33:36.230
the first version of the idsr the
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:38.070
inspection dates on report was 22
00:33:38.080 --> 00:33:40.549
pages long the next version was 11 pages
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:42.470
long now it's down to six pages long and
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:44.630
it's just a series of statements
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:46.710
narrative kind of this is what we think
00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:48.310
about your school so they produce that
00:33:48.320 --> 00:33:49.909
every year and that's supposed to give
00:33:49.919 --> 00:33:50.630
some
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:53.430
context to the ofsted inspector um but
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:55.430
it is overwhelmingly based on the
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:57.029
results in reading writing and maths
00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:58.230
with a bit of spag from
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:01.269
him so it's really it's about english
00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:01.830
and maths
00:34:01.840 --> 00:34:04.310
that's what the that's what the idsr is
00:34:04.320 --> 00:34:04.950
based on
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.750
it's not really based on the broad and
00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:08.950
balanced curriculum because there's no
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:09.990
data out there
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:12.710
so their their their picture of a school
00:34:12.720 --> 00:34:13.190
is
00:34:13.200 --> 00:34:16.790
is drawn from previous ofsted report
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:20.230
the schools um the school's uh website
00:34:20.240 --> 00:34:21.829
which will include all the other sort of
00:34:21.839 --> 00:34:22.710
stuff that they do
00:34:22.720 --> 00:34:24.470
and the extracurricular stuff and what
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:25.909
have you so they will get information
00:34:25.919 --> 00:34:26.790
from that
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:28.629
but but this report that they have that
00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:31.030
says this school is significantly below
00:34:31.040 --> 00:34:32.629
and it's significantly above and it's in
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:33.669
the bottom 20
00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:36.230
or in the top 20 and it's you know all
00:34:36.240 --> 00:34:37.829
these sorts this is all based on english
00:34:37.839 --> 00:34:38.869
and maths it's all based on
00:34:38.879 --> 00:34:40.629
predominantly key stage two but also at
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:43.030
key stage one and phonics
00:34:43.040 --> 00:34:44.869
so yeah on the one hand they're saying
00:34:44.879 --> 00:34:46.470
broadband's curriculum on the other hand
00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:47.510
it's saying we're going to produce this
00:34:47.520 --> 00:34:49.030
report that summarizes your performance
00:34:49.040 --> 00:34:50.629
in english and mass
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:52.710
is it to some extent part of back to
00:34:52.720 --> 00:34:54.950
basics reading writing arithmetic
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:57.190
three hours sort of idea and then a bit
00:34:57.200 --> 00:34:58.310
of stem thrown
00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:00.710
thrown at it as well really but that's
00:35:00.720 --> 00:35:01.990
primary schools are there just
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:03.510
to get you reading writing and adding up
00:35:03.520 --> 00:35:05.190
and secondary schools can do all the
00:35:05.200 --> 00:35:05.990
rest
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.150
um well i i suppose i'd be going i'm
00:35:08.160 --> 00:35:09.510
going outside of my
00:35:09.520 --> 00:35:12.390
my room here commenting on this um i
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:13.670
think that that's
00:35:13.680 --> 00:35:15.430
how it could be viewed i think that
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:17.030
primary teachers would have
00:35:17.040 --> 00:35:19.510
something to say about that but that's
00:35:19.520 --> 00:35:21.270
not what they're there for
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:23.349
but sometimes i guess it it feels like
00:35:23.359 --> 00:35:24.630
that and yeah i mean
00:35:24.640 --> 00:35:26.790
english and maths are are important and
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:27.829
we want to
00:35:27.839 --> 00:35:29.750
try and ascertain the standards in
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:31.349
english and mass they've got a new
00:35:31.359 --> 00:35:32.630
it's not that new now a national
00:35:32.640 --> 00:35:34.870
curriculum um it's been completely sort
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:36.470
of overhauled
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:37.910
all this stuff out sort of fewer things
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.950
in greater depth i think uh
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:43.990
but yeah so that's that that's
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.710
what they are predominantly teaching um
00:35:46.720 --> 00:35:48.470
and and that is what they are almost
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:50.310
entirely assessed on
00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:53.510
so that's where the focus lies
00:35:53.520 --> 00:35:55.109
sometimes to the detriment of other
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:57.349
things but i don't think that's what
00:35:57.359 --> 00:36:00.390
primary teachers want
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:03.670
necessarily okay
00:36:03.680 --> 00:36:06.390
there we go with james pembroke and
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:07.750
reflecting on the
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:10.550
sunday times league tables which were
00:36:10.560 --> 00:36:13.670
based on 2019 sets
00:36:13.680 --> 00:36:15.910
of course because um this year we didn't
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:17.109
even bother with them
00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:21.750
no can we can be bothered
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:23.910
better things to do yeah another
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:25.510
interesting end there fewer things in
00:36:25.520 --> 00:36:27.630
great to debt i think is fairly
00:36:27.640 --> 00:36:30.230
antithetical in my view to what primary
00:36:30.240 --> 00:36:31.510
schools should be doing
00:36:31.520 --> 00:36:35.190
uh more things in greater breadth
00:36:35.200 --> 00:36:37.750
would be uh perhaps a more useful
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:38.870
preparation
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:41.109
for students but really interesting
00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:42.310
insights there that
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:46.069
data numbers give you a particular
00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:47.829
slant and obviously you know it's useful
00:36:47.839 --> 00:36:49.670
and it's desirable perhaps for parents
00:36:49.680 --> 00:36:50.950
to know that
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.030
how schools are doing on those measures
00:36:53.040 --> 00:36:53.990
of english and maths
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.550
but that certainly doesn't capture those
00:36:56.560 --> 00:36:58.069
important qualities that
00:36:58.079 --> 00:36:59.670
jonathan and ed were talking about the
00:36:59.680 --> 00:37:01.829
the happiness and the safety that we
00:37:01.839 --> 00:37:04.390
also as parents are very very interested
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:05.190
in
00:37:05.200 --> 00:37:08.390
um yeah and also
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.270
if you've only got one primary school in
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:13.109
your local area
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:16.790
and it comes up with it's not very good
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:18.790
what's that information do for you
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:21.910
someone on twitter i think it was um for
00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:23.510
estate agents
00:37:23.520 --> 00:37:26.790
yeah it was a few years ago and
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:28.310
um came up to me and said well you could
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.150
become governor become
00:37:30.160 --> 00:37:32.069
parent governor or something and try and
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:33.910
get the school up to standard or
00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:34.630
something like that
00:37:34.640 --> 00:37:37.589
like that is open to more than one pair
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:39.190
any parents really become
00:37:39.200 --> 00:37:41.190
student you know become a parent
00:37:41.200 --> 00:37:43.030
governor for the school down the road
00:37:43.040 --> 00:37:45.589
i think it's unrealistic so what what's
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:47.190
the information for
00:37:47.200 --> 00:37:49.109
for north london liberal elite perhaps
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:50.870
it's telling you out of the 12 primary
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:51.829
schools
00:37:51.839 --> 00:37:53.349
you're in the catchment area for which
00:37:53.359 --> 00:37:55.589
one perhaps you could drive your car to
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:58.630
um your chelsea tractor or something a
00:37:58.640 --> 00:38:00.310
bit of class hatred coming out here but
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:02.829
isn't it
00:38:02.839 --> 00:38:06.390
yeah a bit corbin easter that was
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:08.230
you know talking about north london
00:38:08.240 --> 00:38:10.069
liberal elite again but what what
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:12.630
is the information for do the sats
00:38:12.640 --> 00:38:13.349
actually
00:38:13.359 --> 00:38:16.630
help parents in any sense of the word
00:38:16.640 --> 00:38:18.390
get an idea about what the school is
00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:18.790
about
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:20.710
or is the ofsted report that you were
00:38:20.720 --> 00:38:22.870
saying jonathan was talking about
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:25.589
and ed was talking about that the report
00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:27.670
perhaps gives us more information
00:38:27.680 --> 00:38:29.349
well i don't think it does i mean the
00:38:29.359 --> 00:38:31.589
news slims down ofsted report i don't
00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:33.030
know if you've looked at any martin it's
00:38:33.040 --> 00:38:34.710
two pages long and it's pretty
00:38:34.720 --> 00:38:35.510
information
00:38:35.520 --> 00:38:38.069
light uh that's been a deliberate move
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:38.630
to
00:38:38.640 --> 00:38:40.710
i suppose make the reports more readable
00:38:40.720 --> 00:38:42.710
or give the appearance of them
00:38:42.720 --> 00:38:45.109
being easier to access um but i think
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:47.750
often they they contain
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:50.870
the illusion of information um that that
00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:52.710
because they're so easy to access you
00:38:52.720 --> 00:38:53.990
think all right okay i know what's
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:55.670
saying here but i think mainly what peop
00:38:55.680 --> 00:38:56.950
what parents look at when they look at
00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:58.069
office reports they look at the
00:38:58.079 --> 00:38:59.510
headlines they look at
00:38:59.520 --> 00:39:01.990
they look at the judgments and if it
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:03.670
says outstanding they don't look
00:39:03.680 --> 00:39:07.750
at much more than that but
00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:09.990
one of the balances one of the checks to
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:12.150
what um what was being discussed in the
00:39:12.160 --> 00:39:13.829
interview there about that that schools
00:39:13.839 --> 00:39:15.349
are only assessed
00:39:15.359 --> 00:39:17.589
on their english and maths performance
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:19.510
is that now offstead
00:39:19.520 --> 00:39:21.589
are going into prime well not now
00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:22.950
obviously they stopped going in at the
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:23.430
moment
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:25.109
but they were going into primary schools
00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:26.550
and saying well you've got these great
00:39:26.560 --> 00:39:27.990
english and math results but
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:29.349
how are you doing in the rest of the
00:39:29.359 --> 00:39:31.349
curriculum are you are you
00:39:31.359 --> 00:39:32.550
providing a broad and balanced
00:39:32.560 --> 00:39:35.270
curriculum and then in some cases saying
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:35.910
to schools
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:39.589
we think you're putting undue emphasis
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:42.069
on these single measures and we're going
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:43.829
to we're going to we're going to
00:39:43.839 --> 00:39:45.910
make that a a feature of the report and
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:47.750
we're going to penalize you for it and
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:49.270
that was starting to happen
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:51.910
um that pressure i think was was
00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:53.270
something that primary schools were
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:54.069
feeling
00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:57.109
and were aware of and maybe in some
00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:59.510
cases where there had been
00:39:59.520 --> 00:40:02.550
um as as as as uh miss pembroke was
00:40:02.560 --> 00:40:03.910
saying you know that if uh
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:05.750
i'm saying that i don't know what the j
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:07.270
stands for what does the j stun
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:10.550
james james yeah as james was saying um
00:40:10.560 --> 00:40:12.950
that's if you know that that it's it
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:14.550
would it made sense in the past for
00:40:14.560 --> 00:40:15.990
schools to
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:17.750
not do the rest of the curriculum and
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:19.349
focus all of their attention in years
00:40:19.359 --> 00:40:20.230
five and six
00:40:20.240 --> 00:40:22.470
on english and maths that was a that was
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:24.390
a rational response to the way in which
00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:25.829
they were held to account
00:40:25.839 --> 00:40:28.790
and so then now there is this check this
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:29.589
to that
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:32.069
um where now the pressure is we want you
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:33.349
to get brilliant english and math
00:40:33.359 --> 00:40:34.470
results but
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:36.829
you've also got everything else too so
00:40:36.839 --> 00:40:38.470
uh
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:41.270
yeah and and of course it brings out all
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:42.870
sorts of problems about how do you
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:44.870
assess the rest of the curriculum how do
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:46.550
you show children are progressing
00:40:46.560 --> 00:40:47.510
through the curriculum
00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:49.750
we talk about all these things um
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:51.990
including getting rid of levels and how
00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:54.390
good that has been actually but but the
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:55.349
problems of
00:40:55.359 --> 00:40:58.069
assessing progress of of finding out how
00:40:58.079 --> 00:40:59.670
well a child is doing at
00:40:59.680 --> 00:41:01.270
the breadth of the subjects in the
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:03.349
school and all the issues that
00:41:03.359 --> 00:41:04.790
come along with that as well as the
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:06.470
other tests that schools are doing of
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:07.109
course
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:10.470
including the phonics test and the
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:13.270
spoon to become the times table test as
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:13.829
well
00:41:13.839 --> 00:41:15.510
talk about all that that's an intro
00:41:15.520 --> 00:41:17.190
because that comes up in the interview
00:41:17.200 --> 00:41:17.510
with
00:41:17.520 --> 00:41:19.750
ed jonathan and then because the the
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:20.550
phonics check
00:41:20.560 --> 00:41:22.870
and the time staples check not test
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:23.589
check
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:26.069
uh are they they're incredibly popular
00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:27.349
with parents apparently
00:41:27.359 --> 00:41:29.510
they really approve of that and so there
00:41:29.520 --> 00:41:31.030
are obvious there's a narrative among
00:41:31.040 --> 00:41:32.790
some teachers that this is undue
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:33.510
pressure
00:41:33.520 --> 00:41:34.950
but i think we have to be really really
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:37.030
careful in education arguing against
00:41:37.040 --> 00:41:38.309
these things that parents
00:41:38.319 --> 00:41:41.829
actively want so you know we need to
00:41:41.839 --> 00:41:44.390
you know whether or not we have to we we
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:46.069
don't necessarily make decisions because
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:47.510
parents want things but we should at
00:41:47.520 --> 00:41:48.870
least be aware
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:52.150
that that is part of the the discourse
00:41:52.160 --> 00:41:54.790
yeah and we also talk about cat scores
00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:56.790
we talk about the 11 plus so please
00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:59.109
subscribe and you will see that
00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:02.069
interview come out sometime during the
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:02.790
week
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:05.829
as you will the next um item which is
00:42:05.839 --> 00:42:08.710
called gombrich who's setting up a part
00:42:08.720 --> 00:42:11.109
of a team setting up a new university
00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:13.430
in london the london interdisciplinary
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:14.230
school
00:42:14.240 --> 00:42:16.309
which talks about breadth of curriculum
00:42:16.319 --> 00:42:18.230
more than narrowing down to single
00:42:18.240 --> 00:42:19.270
subjects
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:21.349
and the whole the whole interview talks
00:42:21.359 --> 00:42:23.670
about range it talks about
00:42:23.680 --> 00:42:26.470
the importance of different viewpoints
00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:28.550
but through subjects the arts and the
00:42:28.560 --> 00:42:29.589
sciences
00:42:29.599 --> 00:42:32.790
and how perhaps we specialize too early
00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:35.190
in our education system it's also
00:42:35.200 --> 00:42:37.109
interesting that we do talk about one of
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:37.670
the
00:42:37.680 --> 00:42:39.910
team members which is daisy
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:40.870
christodoulou
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:42.790
which might be a surprise to some people
00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:45.270
to see her name associated with
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:48.150
a interdisciplinary approach to
00:42:48.160 --> 00:42:49.270
education but
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:52.390
have a look carl it's lovely to see you
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:55.270
welcome to well it's your time you're
00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:55.829
wasting
00:42:55.839 --> 00:42:57.349
so we're going to waste a bit of your
00:42:57.359 --> 00:42:59.349
time i i hope you're well sir you're
00:42:59.359 --> 00:43:00.710
looking well
00:43:00.720 --> 00:43:02.069
thank you man it's always great to see
00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:03.349
you we've had a great time off there
00:43:03.359 --> 00:43:04.870
before we've launched and we do slip
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:05.829
into that
00:43:05.839 --> 00:43:08.390
50-something oxonian sense of humor so i
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:09.190
hope we don't
00:43:09.200 --> 00:43:11.270
uh you know get too hysterical and the
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:12.950
listeners can keep with us but it's good
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:15.030
to see you looking well too
00:43:15.040 --> 00:43:17.030
and how you've been um doing a bit of
00:43:17.040 --> 00:43:19.430
exercise over lockdown i hear
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:21.190
yeah i'm one of these uh middle-aged
00:43:21.200 --> 00:43:22.790
cliche people that got madly into
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:24.790
exercise during lockdown and uh
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:26.790
been doing kind of really triathlon
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:28.390
stuff swimming cycling and running the
00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:30.230
proper distances and a bit of strength
00:43:30.240 --> 00:43:31.430
training as well
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:33.910
and uh it's been great i've lost 15 16
00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:34.790
kilos
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:37.510
um feel really good i was very annoyable
00:43:37.520 --> 00:43:39.109
for shutting the gyms this time
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:40.230
but thankfully they're going to open
00:43:40.240 --> 00:43:42.550
again in a week so we'll be back on the
00:43:42.560 --> 00:43:44.950
on the machines and so on then brilliant
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.870
and and the triathlon is this sort of
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:51.030
interdisciplinary type of um sport event
00:43:51.040 --> 00:43:53.109
isn't it i mean it pulls together
00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:55.910
three different sports and and um does
00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:56.790
it seem like
00:43:56.800 --> 00:43:59.109
one perhaps i don't know but the reason
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:00.309
we're talking to you today
00:44:00.319 --> 00:44:02.710
is the london interdisciplinary school
00:44:02.720 --> 00:44:05.270
can you tell me a bit about that please
00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:07.589
yeah so i'll skip the triathlon stuff at
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:09.030
the moment until i've
00:44:09.040 --> 00:44:10.630
been more serious about it but yes the
00:44:10.640 --> 00:44:12.550
london interdisciplinary school is a
00:44:12.560 --> 00:44:14.230
brand new university
00:44:14.240 --> 00:44:15.510
uh you might have seen the piece in the
00:44:15.520 --> 00:44:17.670
bbc uh on the web pages
00:44:17.680 --> 00:44:19.270
uh recently about us getting degree
00:44:19.280 --> 00:44:21.109
awarding powers and
00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:23.990
depending how you cut this and describe
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:24.550
it it's
00:44:24.560 --> 00:44:26.309
genuinely the first kind of startup
00:44:26.319 --> 00:44:28.150
university to get its own degree
00:44:28.160 --> 00:44:29.510
awarding powers
00:44:29.520 --> 00:44:31.910
for many decades possibly as many as 40
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:35.270
50
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:37.430
and the reason we wanted to do this as
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:39.030
you might know martin i started a
00:44:39.040 --> 00:44:41.829
um an undergraduate degree at ucl called
00:44:41.839 --> 00:44:43.670
the bachelor of arts and sciences and it
00:44:43.680 --> 00:44:45.270
was the first basc
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:47.670
bachelor of arts and sciences in the uk
00:44:47.680 --> 00:44:49.190
so i think there's a story behind that
00:44:49.200 --> 00:44:50.069
actually about how
00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:52.470
the whole system has seen it um
00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:53.670
appropriate to keep
00:44:53.680 --> 00:44:55.349
separate the arts and the sciences in
00:44:55.359 --> 00:44:56.710
its formal thinking about higher
00:44:56.720 --> 00:44:59.109
education so we didn't have a bac until
00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:00.550
i started one at ucl
00:45:00.560 --> 00:45:01.670
now there are a few others around the
00:45:01.680 --> 00:45:03.670
country which is interesting um
00:45:03.680 --> 00:45:05.349
and but of course trying to start
00:45:05.359 --> 00:45:06.470
anything interdisciplinary in an
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:07.910
existing institution is immensely
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:09.270
challenging because the
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:10.950
the history of the disciplines and the
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:12.550
trajectories and the various vested
00:45:12.560 --> 00:45:14.150
interests of departments
00:45:14.160 --> 00:45:16.069
makes it very challenging to get that
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:17.510
kind of cross-curricular work
00:45:17.520 --> 00:45:20.870
and thinking going so when ed fido
00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:22.309
who's the ceo of the london
00:45:22.319 --> 00:45:23.990
interdisciplinary school
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:25.750
approached me and i'd known ed from
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:27.109
another project we worked on together
00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:29.030
another university project
00:45:29.040 --> 00:45:30.550
it seemed too good an opportunity to
00:45:30.560 --> 00:45:33.589
miss so i jumped out of ucl
00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:35.750
last march i've been made a professor
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:37.589
which was very nice of them really of
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:39.430
interdisciplinary education or more
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:41.190
technically a professorial teaching
00:45:41.200 --> 00:45:42.870
fellow because it came up the teaching
00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:43.510
track
00:45:43.520 --> 00:45:45.750
so i'm not a research academic i'm a
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:47.190
kind of teaching
00:45:47.200 --> 00:45:49.190
innovation and curriculum innovating
00:45:49.200 --> 00:45:50.790
academic
00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:53.190
but i left ucl that professorship and
00:45:53.200 --> 00:45:54.390
joined this brand new
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:56.630
enterprise whose mission is to start a
00:45:56.640 --> 00:45:57.829
brand new university on
00:45:57.839 --> 00:45:59.030
interdisciplinary
00:45:59.040 --> 00:46:00.950
lines because we think there's a big
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:02.630
space in the world for
00:46:02.640 --> 00:46:04.550
us which doesn't exist certainly in this
00:46:04.560 --> 00:46:06.710
country yet and we're developing a very
00:46:06.720 --> 00:46:08.550
exciting curriculum and all sorts of
00:46:08.560 --> 00:46:10.950
ideas about porosity with the real world
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:12.309
to drive that curriculum and
00:46:12.319 --> 00:46:14.790
relate to that curriculum and that that
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:16.150
that's what we're doing and we're
00:46:16.160 --> 00:46:18.150
opening next september 21 recruiting at
00:46:18.160 --> 00:46:19.750
the moment actively recruiting and
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:22.390
very good interest at the moment too you
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:23.030
said the word
00:46:23.040 --> 00:46:25.030
porosity which i take it is about being
00:46:25.040 --> 00:46:26.550
porous
00:46:26.560 --> 00:46:30.069
yes it's a term due to my colleague
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:31.910
it's not a triathlete term when i'm in
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:34.309
the pool or anything it's uh
00:46:34.319 --> 00:46:36.710
due to my colleague ucl is a professor
00:46:36.720 --> 00:46:38.550
of anthropology michael stewart
00:46:38.560 --> 00:46:40.870
through a blog on the lse blog site in
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:43.510
2015 i think about
00:46:43.520 --> 00:46:45.670
uh how he saw universities just becoming
00:46:45.680 --> 00:46:47.670
too detached from the rest of the world
00:46:47.680 --> 00:46:49.190
to ivory towery
00:46:49.200 --> 00:46:51.190
again it's this kind of circular agenda
00:46:51.200 --> 00:46:52.550
that they have about
00:46:52.560 --> 00:46:54.550
being on a the research excellence
00:46:54.560 --> 00:46:55.910
framework which your
00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:57.349
listeners may know is about kind of
00:46:57.359 --> 00:46:58.870
getting research grants and publishing
00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:00.790
in the best peer-reviewed journals
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:02.630
and that reason incentive that driving
00:47:02.640 --> 00:47:03.829
universities that's what feeds into
00:47:03.839 --> 00:47:05.270
league tables which then ironically
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:06.870
drives recruitment of students
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:08.950
who often don't really see a lot of that
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:10.309
high level research that's
00:47:10.319 --> 00:47:13.030
them they really what's most important
00:47:13.040 --> 00:47:14.390
for them is great teaching and great
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:15.829
relationships with their teachers and
00:47:15.839 --> 00:47:17.510
great curricular which
00:47:17.520 --> 00:47:19.109
interests the students but the whole
00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:21.510
research agenda of universities is um
00:47:21.520 --> 00:47:23.750
very much around kind of looking at each
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:24.870
other
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:26.390
often not entirely of course there's a
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:27.510
lot of them there's a lot going on in
00:47:27.520 --> 00:47:28.630
the universe it's hard to
00:47:28.640 --> 00:47:30.950
summarize the whole sector but michael's
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:32.870
feeling was we needed more porosity we
00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:34.470
need to be talking to the real world
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:35.109
about
00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:37.030
problems out there that businesses
00:47:37.040 --> 00:47:39.030
governments people were dealing with
00:47:39.040 --> 00:47:40.950
and thinking about how our academic
00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:42.309
curriculum should relate to that
00:47:42.319 --> 00:47:44.230
so laf is very much in that way of
00:47:44.240 --> 00:47:46.870
thinking okay so it's
00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:48.750
you you mentioned the word
00:47:48.760 --> 00:47:50.150
cross-curricularity
00:47:50.160 --> 00:47:52.549
we've got interdisciplinary as part of
00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:53.750
the name of the
00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:56.549
school can you tell me is is there a
00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:58.230
difference between those terms are they
00:47:58.240 --> 00:47:59.750
one and the same
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:01.670
yeah you you mentioned cross-culturality
00:48:01.680 --> 00:48:02.870
before you everyone i think you said
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:04.870
curricularity or by putting words into
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:05.990
your mouth
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:07.510
well you did before we met and i thought
00:48:07.520 --> 00:48:09.109
that's great i'll i'll uh
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:11.270
you know in the in the you know attempt
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:12.549
to be empathetic i'd
00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:14.390
use that as well i mean i'm i'm
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:15.750
sympathetic to that
00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:19.109
term i mean i'm uh
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:21.430
where do we start without without um
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:23.430
getting too kind of abstract i i just
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:24.790
think
00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:27.430
the the modern world requires us to make
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:29.030
a lot of connections across different
00:48:29.040 --> 00:48:29.670
areas of
00:48:29.680 --> 00:48:32.790
um thought culture
00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:35.910
methods practice employment everything
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:37.750
and it's sort of ironic and almost
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:40.069
tragic to me that the last place
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:42.230
really thinking about this in detail and
00:48:42.240 --> 00:48:44.150
sort of in a really rigorous
00:48:44.160 --> 00:48:46.790
academic natural intellectual way is
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:47.750
large part of
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:50.390
the british education system i mean uh
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:52.150
you can contrast a little bit
00:48:52.160 --> 00:48:55.829
for example and um a levels are great
00:48:55.839 --> 00:48:56.950
they're fine
00:48:56.960 --> 00:48:59.030
but it is the narrowest 16 to 18
00:48:59.040 --> 00:49:01.109
education system i think in the entire
00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:02.069
world uh
00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:03.750
i was more up on this a few years ago
00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:05.510
and i think mauritius had a similarly
00:49:05.520 --> 00:49:06.630
narrow system
00:49:06.640 --> 00:49:09.829
but everywhere else has at least i think
00:49:09.839 --> 00:49:11.430
even india because everyone does english
00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:12.950
and maths and then three subjects but
00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:14.390
they inherited a lot from the british
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:15.109
anyway
00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:17.349
but everywhere else has five six seven
00:49:17.359 --> 00:49:18.790
eight nine ten subjects so we have
00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:20.710
typically the only three as you know
00:49:20.720 --> 00:49:22.790
and then we have single honors degrees
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:24.549
typically the few joint honors which are
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:26.390
basically half a degree each
00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:28.870
and this is so ironic when you think of
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:30.470
um of the
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:32.950
kind of requirements in employment so
00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:34.150
one of the stats
00:49:34.160 --> 00:49:36.790
i um roll out very often just did it
00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:38.870
last night at a school presentation
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:41.670
is uh research from the institute of
00:49:41.680 --> 00:49:42.150
student
00:49:42.160 --> 00:49:44.790
employers the main research body look at
00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:46.950
graduate employment in this country
00:49:46.960 --> 00:49:50.230
and their latest research shows that 86
00:49:50.240 --> 00:49:52.790
of all graduate employers so virtually 9
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:53.589
out of 10
00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:55.990
don't care that's using their words what
00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:57.510
degree discipline you subject you
00:49:57.520 --> 00:49:58.870
studied at university
00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:00.549
so it's irrelevant you can go work for
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:02.549
pfizer with a french french history
00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:03.349
degree
00:50:03.359 --> 00:50:05.030
you can go and work for deutsche bank
00:50:05.040 --> 00:50:08.069
with with uh with a biochemistry degree
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:10.950
and this shows if nothing else that the
00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:12.390
necessary connection between the single
00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:13.990
discipline and the world of work is
00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:15.589
more or less completely broken and
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:16.950
that's been increasing since the mid
00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:18.710
thousands when it was about 63 percent
00:50:18.720 --> 00:50:19.750
of employers it's been growing up
00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:21.030
steadily for 10 years
00:50:21.040 --> 00:50:22.950
and this just kind of shows that this
00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:24.950
which we all intuitively feel anyway the
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:27.030
connectivity the modern world of ideas
00:50:27.040 --> 00:50:27.990
of people
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:31.030
of enterprises requires
00:50:31.040 --> 00:50:32.950
younger people to think across these
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:34.390
four subject boundaries
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:35.990
the the humanities and the science the
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:37.990
qualitative and the quantitative
00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:40.870
and anything really for me any
00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:42.870
curriculum that thinks about that
00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:45.829
sensibly and carefully and creatively is
00:50:45.839 --> 00:50:46.630
going to add
00:50:46.640 --> 00:50:49.109
something of value to a young person's
00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:50.069
education
00:50:50.079 --> 00:50:52.630
of course it can be done very badly and
00:50:52.640 --> 00:50:53.990
if i'm being you know very modest
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:55.349
about this i said there's nothing really
00:50:55.359 --> 00:50:57.589
wrong with just doing same maths from
00:50:57.599 --> 00:50:58.870
the age of 16 to
00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:01.750
21 or history or whatever it might be
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:02.870
there's nothing really wrong with it in
00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:03.910
the sense that they're all good for
00:51:03.920 --> 00:51:05.589
developing your mind
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:08.630
but clearly you're not going to be
00:51:08.640 --> 00:51:10.069
making many connections
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:12.549
outside that formal academic space if
00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:14.390
that's all you study all day long all
00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:15.829
your assessed on
00:51:15.839 --> 00:51:18.230
and i think you know without massive
00:51:18.240 --> 00:51:20.549
randomized control trials it's fairly
00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:22.549
clear that that might be sub-optimal for
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:23.589
a lot of your future
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:25.670
just one example not i'll stop talking
00:51:25.680 --> 00:51:27.510
about let go of a word
00:51:27.520 --> 00:51:28.950
um you know there are still some
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:30.630
humanities degrees you can go through a
00:51:30.640 --> 00:51:31.750
university
00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:33.670
and you could go from 16 without ever
00:51:33.680 --> 00:51:36.549
opening an excel spreadsheet and i do
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:38.549
think it's kind of weird because you
00:51:38.559 --> 00:51:40.549
won't join any business anywhere any
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:41.990
enterprise anywhere any part of
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:43.349
government anywhere that doesn't use at
00:51:43.359 --> 00:51:44.870
least an excel spreadsheet on some
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:45.910
occasion
00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:48.150
so how are you going to understand what
00:51:48.160 --> 00:51:50.150
your colleagues who work on spiritually
00:51:50.160 --> 00:51:50.790
going to do
00:51:50.800 --> 00:51:52.230
now we can over do the spreadsheeting of
00:51:52.240 --> 00:51:53.430
course but that's just one little
00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:54.710
example where
00:51:54.720 --> 00:51:56.950
without really being a little bit open
00:51:56.960 --> 00:51:59.030
to things outside particular disciplines
00:51:59.040 --> 00:52:00.470
you're just going to
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.309
miss out on this on this kind of
00:52:02.319 --> 00:52:04.230
connected modern world it's
00:52:04.240 --> 00:52:06.309
it's a poignant example of course the
00:52:06.319 --> 00:52:08.710
excel spreadsheet because
00:52:08.720 --> 00:52:11.030
the spreadsheet became a problem i think
00:52:11.040 --> 00:52:11.750
it in the
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:14.230
covid figures the spreadsheet wasn't the
00:52:14.240 --> 00:52:15.910
right one or something like that which
00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:18.950
then takes me to dominic cummings
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:21.190
talking about the civil service not
00:52:21.200 --> 00:52:22.950
being up to scratching too many
00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:24.950
humanities graduates there perhaps and
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:26.630
not enough people who
00:52:26.640 --> 00:52:28.950
understand science but he wants more he
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:29.670
wanted
00:52:29.680 --> 00:52:31.829
of course he's past tense though but
00:52:31.839 --> 00:52:33.190
more specialists
00:52:33.200 --> 00:52:36.309
in in positions of the civil service
00:52:36.319 --> 00:52:38.790
and in government whereas you're talking
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:40.230
about
00:52:40.240 --> 00:52:42.069
straddling the two cultures should we
00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:43.430
say of arts and
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:46.790
sciences um is and this
00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:48.390
takes me also towards the i don't know
00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:51.349
if you've read rebel ideas
00:52:51.359 --> 00:52:52.549
all right you should you should read
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:53.910
rebel ideas i've forgotten the name of
00:52:53.920 --> 00:52:55.190
the guy who wrote it but
00:52:55.200 --> 00:52:58.390
i'll i'll put that in the link below um
00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:01.270
but rebel ideas talks about the need for
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:03.109
a range of views
00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:05.910
you know in all our areas of government
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:07.270
of business of
00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:09.109
schooling of everything like that the
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:11.270
importance of the range of ideas
00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:13.349
and what that brings to something which
00:53:13.359 --> 00:53:15.190
you perhaps wouldn't get if you have
00:53:15.200 --> 00:53:17.349
just single specialists all agreeing
00:53:17.359 --> 00:53:19.030
with each other you know
00:53:19.040 --> 00:53:22.870
um what i am interested in
00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:26.829
is i i take what you say with the a
00:53:26.839 --> 00:53:29.190
levels i understand that
00:53:29.200 --> 00:53:31.910
but do you think subjects are important
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:33.190
at secondary school
00:53:33.200 --> 00:53:36.150
or do you think we should be modeling
00:53:36.160 --> 00:53:37.190
ourselves more
00:53:37.200 --> 00:53:39.390
on a on an interdisciplinary
00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:41.430
cross-curricularity whichever
00:53:41.440 --> 00:53:43.270
we want to come down on for those that
00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:44.710
term yeah
00:53:44.720 --> 00:53:48.150
and have more um porous borders
00:53:48.160 --> 00:53:50.870
between schools okay briefly after
00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:51.910
firstly coming
00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:53.349
interesting and of course very curious
00:53:53.359 --> 00:53:55.349
because his blog was all about educating
00:53:55.359 --> 00:53:57.829
people to get a crude grasp of the whole
00:53:57.839 --> 00:53:59.030
as he called it which is
00:53:59.040 --> 00:54:01.190
uh the great physicist murray gullman's
00:54:01.200 --> 00:54:02.150
phrase
00:54:02.160 --> 00:54:03.750
so crummings himself actually thinks
00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:04.950
himself i think is much more of a
00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:06.390
generous with the crude grasp of the
00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:07.829
whole the odyssian
00:54:07.839 --> 00:54:10.069
project was all about an education very
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:12.150
close actually to what i ended up
00:54:12.160 --> 00:54:13.430
well not ended up it's almost in
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:14.950
parallel i didn't know coming so i read
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:15.990
that blog i thought wow we're doing
00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:17.750
something very similar at ucl
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:20.069
so he's complicated he wants a mixture
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:21.589
of both kind of very high-powered
00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:22.230
generalists
00:54:22.240 --> 00:54:25.109
and as you say specialists secondly the
00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:26.870
point i want to make is that
00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:29.030
specialization expertise in the modern
00:54:29.040 --> 00:54:31.270
world is often interdisciplinary
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:32.870
this is really really important you're
00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:35.030
an expert because
00:54:35.040 --> 00:54:41.750
of your interdisciplinarity
00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:43.589
because of your interdisciplinarity not
00:54:43.599 --> 00:54:45.109
in spite of it i just want to give you
00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:46.870
one example i could give you 20 from my
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:48.549
students i have a student who's just won
00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:50.069
a major international prize finishing a
00:54:50.079 --> 00:54:51.829
phd in civil engineering oxford
00:54:51.839 --> 00:54:53.109
university
00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:55.190
uh so proper technical staff civil
00:54:55.200 --> 00:54:56.549
engineering austin university
00:54:56.559 --> 00:54:59.430
but what she does is she looks at um
00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:00.150
engineering
00:55:00.160 --> 00:55:02.150
uh infrastructures that are implemented
00:55:02.160 --> 00:55:03.829
in island states that are trying to
00:55:03.839 --> 00:55:05.589
reduce flooding due to climate change
00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:07.510
stay with me and the whole point that
00:55:07.520 --> 00:55:09.430
her expertise is that she doesn't just
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:10.789
look at the engineering she looks at the
00:55:10.799 --> 00:55:12.710
anthropology how people will use that
00:55:12.720 --> 00:55:13.670
infrastructure
00:55:13.680 --> 00:55:15.589
the politics of it the local political
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:17.109
systems how that infrastructure will get
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:19.109
maintained the economics and so on
00:55:19.119 --> 00:55:21.589
so she is in a room often of very nerdy
00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:23.430
civil engineers who got no idea about
00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:24.069
any of this
00:55:24.079 --> 00:55:25.430
they're working on their project they're
00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:26.950
going to plonk it down somewhere it'll
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:28.630
be rusting within six months and never
00:55:28.640 --> 00:55:29.270
used
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:30.710
so she's able to say hold on we need to
00:55:30.720 --> 00:55:32.230
think about these other dimensions these
00:55:32.240 --> 00:55:34.470
other aspects of the project and that is
00:55:34.480 --> 00:55:36.150
what gives her her expertise
00:55:36.160 --> 00:55:37.990
in climate change resilience of small
00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:39.750
island state
00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:41.430
i had another student just i said i
00:55:41.440 --> 00:55:42.390
wouldn't give more than one but they're
00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:43.990
also exciting another student just
00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:45.750
finished the phd in computational
00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:47.910
cognitive neuroscience the three words
00:55:47.920 --> 00:55:49.349
tell you it's interdisciplinary straight
00:55:49.359 --> 00:55:50.230
away right
00:55:50.240 --> 00:55:52.230
and on and on and on and on so many
00:55:52.240 --> 00:55:53.270
modern phds
00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:55.510
are interdisciplinary interdisciplinary
00:55:55.520 --> 00:55:56.950
and the phd is a great example because
00:55:56.960 --> 00:55:58.870
people think oh that's proper expertise
00:55:58.880 --> 00:55:59.349
you know
00:55:59.359 --> 00:56:02.390
yes it is and so
00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:04.069
we need to get away from the idea that
00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:05.270
you're not a specialist if you're
00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:07.030
interdisciplinary it's the opposite
00:56:07.040 --> 00:56:09.430
in many ways it's the most interesting
00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:10.309
current
00:56:10.319 --> 00:56:13.030
cutting-edge specialisms which are
00:56:13.040 --> 00:56:14.470
interdisciplinary but okay
00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:15.829
that's at the end that's a kind of
00:56:15.839 --> 00:56:17.670
postgraduate level when it comes to
00:56:17.680 --> 00:56:19.589
schools i'm actually quite sympathetic
00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:21.190
particularly secondary schools to a bit
00:56:21.200 --> 00:56:22.390
more structure
00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:23.829
and this because one of the things that
00:56:23.839 --> 00:56:25.349
frustrates me about education
00:56:25.359 --> 00:56:27.910
conversations is we often fall into the
00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:29.109
talking about education as if we're
00:56:29.119 --> 00:56:30.789
talking about five-year-olds the same as
00:56:30.799 --> 00:56:32.710
15 year olds the same as 20 year olds
00:56:32.720 --> 00:56:33.750
and they're not the same
00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:35.670
and they're different brain structures
00:56:35.680 --> 00:56:37.430
they have different needs they're going
00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:39.990
to different worlds to do things
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:42.630
and i do think there's probably a good
00:56:42.640 --> 00:56:44.069
argument for more structure for
00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:44.950
adolescents
00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:46.870
and more clear boundaries for all sorts
00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:48.069
of reasons
00:56:48.079 --> 00:56:50.309
than either when you're very small or
00:56:50.319 --> 00:56:51.910
when you're heading into adulthood when
00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:52.950
you have to negotiate
00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:56.150
non-boundaries much more so uh i don't
00:56:56.160 --> 00:56:56.789
really want to
00:56:56.799 --> 00:56:58.470
step too much on secondary school
00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:00.230
teachers toes i mean i think as you know
00:57:00.240 --> 00:57:01.990
i am a fan of the ib
00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:03.910
i think they've done a really good job
00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:05.349
in kind of
00:57:05.359 --> 00:57:07.190
helping students through those spaces
00:57:07.200 --> 00:57:08.630
saying now you're doing your subjects
00:57:08.640 --> 00:57:09.750
and now you're doing across
00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:11.910
curricularity you know and that itself
00:57:11.920 --> 00:57:13.510
is a really helpful
00:57:13.520 --> 00:57:16.230
um sort of cognitive hygiene process
00:57:16.240 --> 00:57:16.549
right
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:18.390
and i like subjects i mean they've done
00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:20.230
an amazing job for four five hundred
00:57:20.240 --> 00:57:21.510
years there's nothing
00:57:21.520 --> 00:57:24.309
inherently wrong with them at all it's
00:57:24.319 --> 00:57:25.109
just that
00:57:25.119 --> 00:57:27.589
in my world i see university firstly if
00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:29.270
we get kids who are too much
00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:31.190
kind of educated in that way they can be
00:57:31.200 --> 00:57:32.950
a bit limited and they're unable to
00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:34.390
think creatively in other ways and make
00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:35.670
interesting connections
00:57:35.680 --> 00:57:38.230
and secondly as i said almost well just
00:57:38.240 --> 00:57:39.430
as importantly is the world they're
00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:41.190
going into doesn't see academic subjects
00:57:41.200 --> 00:57:43.030
doesn't care back to academic soldiers
00:57:43.040 --> 00:57:43.990
to use the
00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:46.069
institute of student employers words so
00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:48.710
why do we insist on them so much so
00:57:48.720 --> 00:57:50.549
going back to schools i think you know
00:57:50.559 --> 00:57:52.309
there's definitely a place for
00:57:52.319 --> 00:57:54.069
careful thoughts about disciplinary
00:57:54.079 --> 00:57:56.309
teaching and making it rigorous and good
00:57:56.319 --> 00:57:58.870
but then thinking you know what you know
00:57:58.880 --> 00:58:00.230
this is only what this is one way to do
00:58:00.240 --> 00:58:01.829
history but a data scientist might have
00:58:01.839 --> 00:58:03.270
a completely different view of what
00:58:03.280 --> 00:58:04.710
you're doing history let's call in the
00:58:04.720 --> 00:58:06.150
data scientists let's hear about how
00:58:06.160 --> 00:58:07.589
they think about data
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:09.030
and let's see a dialogue with a
00:58:09.040 --> 00:58:10.549
historian and what would the students
00:58:10.559 --> 00:58:11.829
make of that is there another way they
00:58:11.839 --> 00:58:12.870
could do history
00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:14.390
which is very different to archival
00:58:14.400 --> 00:58:16.150
research or you know uh
00:58:16.160 --> 00:58:18.230
the traditional more humanistic way of
00:58:18.240 --> 00:58:19.349
doing it so
00:58:19.359 --> 00:58:23.670
i think both are good basically
00:58:23.680 --> 00:58:25.829
and carl gombrick there i think i called
00:58:25.839 --> 00:58:27.349
him gombridge at the beginning i'm very
00:58:27.359 --> 00:58:29.510
i do apologize for that carl
00:58:29.520 --> 00:58:32.950
gombrick um a famous name
00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:35.510
because he is a gumbrick of the famous
00:58:35.520 --> 00:58:36.150
gombric
00:58:36.160 --> 00:58:38.549
clan so to speak and we talk about it
00:58:38.559 --> 00:58:41.030
later on
00:58:41.040 --> 00:58:43.030
the history of the world book yes the
00:58:43.040 --> 00:58:44.789
history of the world history of art and
00:58:44.799 --> 00:58:47.349
and all that story of art story about
00:58:47.359 --> 00:58:48.710
and we talk about that
00:58:48.720 --> 00:58:51.910
so and karl popper comes in pops up
00:58:51.920 --> 00:58:58.950
no less in the interview as well
00:58:58.960 --> 00:59:01.510
i missed what you said there so i just i
00:59:01.520 --> 00:59:04.950
think it was a merry quip
00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:07.510
just as well uh okay so that was that
00:59:07.520 --> 00:59:08.710
was really interesting stuff
00:59:08.720 --> 00:59:11.190
that uh i mean i do think obviously the
00:59:11.200 --> 00:59:12.150
idea
00:59:12.160 --> 00:59:14.390
of not seeing a spreadsheet during your
00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:17.349
degree just sounds like bliss
00:59:17.359 --> 00:59:19.670
you'd be celebrating that but um other
00:59:19.680 --> 00:59:20.870
than that i do think there's a good
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:22.470
point there about interdisciplinary
00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:25.829
if disciplinarity or whatever it is um i
00:59:25.839 --> 00:59:27.990
think maybe one of the things to say is
00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:29.910
you need to make it easier to pronounce
00:59:29.920 --> 00:59:31.190
whatever it is
00:59:31.200 --> 00:59:34.710
but um my uh my uh year 11 daughter
00:59:34.720 --> 00:59:36.549
was was saying to me this week that
00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:38.069
she's been looking in
00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:41.190
to she wants to do an ib next year
00:59:41.200 --> 00:59:43.990
and she's been looking into uh going to
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:45.589
an american university because she was
00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:45.990
being
00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:48.870
talking about how much broader uh us
00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:50.549
undergraduate courses are
00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:52.630
and i will now point her in the
00:59:52.640 --> 00:59:54.150
direction of carl
00:59:54.160 --> 00:59:57.349
brick bridge uh to maybe get keeper
00:59:57.359 --> 00:59:58.710
closer to home so that's uh
00:59:58.720 --> 01:00:00.230
it'll be interesting see how that plays
01:00:00.240 --> 01:00:02.150
out just winning
01:00:02.160 --> 01:00:05.510
the m4 perfect so we're
01:00:05.520 --> 01:00:07.829
we're it's about that time i know martin
01:00:07.839 --> 01:00:09.589
we you were going we haven't
01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:12.549
my fault mia culpa we haven't managed to
01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:12.870
do
01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:14.950
a review for our show sponsors john capp
01:00:14.960 --> 01:00:16.069
this week i was going to
01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:17.510
i was meant to do that in the week and i
01:00:17.520 --> 01:00:19.990
just ran out of time and martin
01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:22.069
uh was you know goodness me he'd taken
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:23.270
one for the team
01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:25.349
and was okay we can take that away he
01:00:25.359 --> 01:00:26.630
was going to
01:00:26.640 --> 01:00:29.109
fill in with my new book which is
01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:30.789
published by john cat but
01:00:30.799 --> 01:00:32.470
thankfully for everyone at home we
01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:34.150
haven't got time for any of that
01:00:34.160 --> 01:00:37.270
uh but being as things we haven't
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:39.270
uh got anything else to give away this
01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:40.309
week
01:00:40.319 --> 01:00:42.870
we with enormous sort of self-indulgence
01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:43.589
we're going to
01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:45.990
going to give away uh two copies of my
01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:46.710
book
01:00:46.720 --> 01:00:50.390
intelligent accounting
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:52.150
i've just brushed my teeth sorry about
01:00:52.160 --> 01:00:53.510
that uh we're going to give away a
01:00:53.520 --> 01:00:54.789
couple of copies of it whatever it's
01:00:54.799 --> 01:00:55.190
called
01:00:55.200 --> 01:00:57.430
uh martin can you do the honors and let
01:00:57.440 --> 01:00:59.670
them know i'll do the honours and david
01:00:59.680 --> 01:01:04.390
could you could you sign the copies
01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:07.190
no no i would just reduce the value no i
01:01:07.200 --> 01:01:08.390
think i think you should
01:01:08.400 --> 01:01:10.470
sign the copies with love and kisses etc
01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:11.430
etc
01:01:11.440 --> 01:01:14.390
so the first name if it's carl hendricks
01:01:14.400 --> 01:01:16.390
again i'm not signing it
01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:19.670
loving kisses to carl hendrick is rana
01:01:19.680 --> 01:01:24.150
i mean signed copy coming your way
01:01:24.160 --> 01:01:28.510
if you get in touch with us at hello
01:01:28.520 --> 01:01:30.230
wastingyourtime.co.uk and let us know
01:01:30.240 --> 01:01:31.990
where you'd like us to send the book
01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:34.789
uh we will i will send you a signed copy
01:01:34.799 --> 01:01:36.309
and the
01:01:36.319 --> 01:01:39.430
last but not least name is david sharp
01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:42.630
david good name david again
01:01:42.640 --> 01:01:45.430
you know where to send your details well
01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:47.589
martin that's been a bumper-ish um issue
01:01:47.599 --> 01:01:49.109
i really enjoyed those into uh
01:01:49.119 --> 01:01:51.510
especially the ones you did
01:01:51.520 --> 01:01:54.950
oh yours was yeah mine was good too um
01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:57.829
but uh but i think they all bear uh
01:01:57.839 --> 01:02:00.230
listening to again and in more detail so
01:02:00.240 --> 01:02:02.069
do subscribe to us and we'll let you
01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:03.510
know then when we release the full
01:02:03.520 --> 01:02:04.789
interviews in the week
01:02:04.799 --> 01:02:06.870
and you can enjoy all of those
01:02:06.880 --> 01:02:08.230
interviews in their
01:02:08.240 --> 01:02:10.150
fullness and glory to your heart's
01:02:10.160 --> 01:02:11.589
content subscribe
01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:14.230
and hit the bell yeah whatever if
01:02:14.240 --> 01:02:15.029
there's a bell
01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:17.670
in your life hit it and we'll be happy
01:02:17.680 --> 01:02:19.270
thanks ever so much
01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:22.069
for your time that you've wasted uh you
01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:23.349
won't ever get that back
01:02:23.359 --> 01:02:32.829
but hopefully you enjoyed it goodbye
01:02:32.839 --> 01:02:36.030
goodbye
01:02:36.040 --> 01:02:46.069
[Music]
01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:50.789
trying to
01:02:50.799 --> 01:02:53.589
you can walk the streets to the lonely
01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:54.150
night
01:02:54.160 --> 01:02:56.789
you can tell yourself that everything's
01:02:56.799 --> 01:02:57.510
all right
01:02:57.520 --> 01:03:03.839
but you're wasting your time