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The Inside Learning Podcast is brought
to you by the Learnovate Centre.
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Learnovate research explores the power
of learning to unlock human potential.
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Find out more about learnovate research
on the science of learning and the
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future of work@learnovateCentre.org.
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The five day work week is a pillar of
modern life, but it isn't backed by
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science, ancient wisdom, or divine decree.
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It's simply a relic of the industrial
age and it's time for an upgrade.
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What if we could accomplish
more while working fewer days?
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A shortened work week once
seemed like a radical idea.
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Today it's embraced by innovative
business leaders, forward thinking
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politicians, and a new generation of
workers demanding more meaningful work.
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In today's book.
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Our guests are a pioneer of designing
and leading four day workweek pilots
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around the globe, and a journalist
whose work has appeared in the New
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York Times Fortune and Time Magazine
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and they present a groundbreaking,
data-driven exploration of why a four
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day workweek is not merely possible.
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It's necessary in an age
of artificial intelligence.
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It is a pleasure to welcome before
it's even launched, the authors of
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Do More in Four, it offers a battle
tested blueprint for a smarter,
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more humane approach to work.
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And we're joined by both authors.
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Joe O'Connor and Jared
Lindzon, welcome to the show.
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Pleasure to be here.
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Thanks for having us.
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Great to have you with us guys.
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I have so many questions.
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, But I thought first we'd start
straight out and put it out our stall.
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Why a four day work week?
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Maybe we'll start first with you,
Jared, and then come to you, Joe.
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Why a four day work week?
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Well, I think maybe the best
place to begin is by actually
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questioning why five days?
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Why is that the way
that we've always done?
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Done things and is that still the best way
to do things and folks often think that
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there's a good reason behind the five day
work week that it was created with a lot
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of thought and intention and it optimized
the ideal amount of rest and work time.
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But it's very arbitrary and we
go into details in the book about
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various labor rights movements that
ended up leading to a five day work
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week, not even all that long ago.
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It only became law in the United
States about 80, 80 years ago.
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became standard a little bit before that.
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And so once we start questioning the
wisdom of the five day work week,
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it gives us permission to start
considering whether or not that
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still suits our modern realities.
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And so the reality for most
organizations, most workers is.
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There's a lot of time spent at
work, but there's not a lot of
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time spent at work doing stuff that
really matters for the business'.
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Total output and
outcomes in the long run.
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And when you start to pare down all of
the noise, all of the extra stuff, all
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the email writing and meeting attendance,
and the stuff that takes up a lot of our
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time, but doesn't really move the needle.
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Once you get rid of that, you realize
that there is an opportunity to
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reduce the work week without getting
rid of the work that really matters.
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And if you wanna inspire people to do
the difficult work of assessing how
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they spend their time, incorporating
new technologies, new systems, new
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processes, to really optimize every minute
they're on the clock, it takes a big
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incentive to inspire that kind of effort.
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And the four day work week is
the perfect combination of.
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Providing that shared incentive and
rewarding people for doing the work and
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sort of galvanizing force to ensure
that the time that we're spending at
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work is really time well spent and it's
not wasted, and therefore it gives us
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the freedom to do more in less time.
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The big picture of why it's time
for a four day work week from a
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societal perspective for me is
the fact that we have had decades
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now of incredible technological
advancements and productivity
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gains, the types of advances that.
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John Maynard Keynes when he predicted in
the 1920s that we'd all be working a 15
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hour work week by the end of the century.
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Richard Nixon went in the
middle of the fifties.
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He talked about how we were on the
cusp of a four day work week that
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would lead to a fuller and fairer
family life for every American.
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We've had the kinds of
progress that we could.
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Never even have imagined.
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And yet the gains of that progress have
not necessarily been equitably shared
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and distributed with the workforce.
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And I think this has led to a lot
of the challenges that we have in
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our current moment when we think
about division, economic inequality.
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And so I think big picture we enter
the age of , intelligence, and
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everything that brings, I think it's
absolutely the right time to reevaluate,
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our relationship with work and what
constitutes the modern work week.
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I think at an enterprise level, as Jared
talked about, the nature of productivity
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has changed such that ours worked is
actually not as direct A, a contributor
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to modern productivity as the motivation
of the workforce, the energy and
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attention and focus of the workforce, the
wellbeing and recovery of the workforce.
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And so all of these dimensions that
are really critical to sustaining high
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performance in modern work can all
be leveraged and optimized through
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something like a four day work week.
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I wanted to build particularly on
the artificial intelligence thing,
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because many people will see that as a
replacement, but in a way, what you guys
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talk about is in an augmentation and
actually doing away with some of , those
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meaningless tasks, meetings, anybody, I
think the unnecessary meeting aspect
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of work is one of the biggest killers of
both productivity and morale in companies.
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But I'd love to hear from you what
you think AI will bring to the table.
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, Why will that reshuffle
how we actually work?
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Most of the stories that we talk
about in the book of how organizations
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have transitioned to a shorter
work week are all about how they
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found ways to do more in less time.
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And often technology was a big part of
that story, automating certain tasks,
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streamlining administrative processes.
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But if we look at what's coming down
the road in terms of agent AI and
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digital labor and the workforce.
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That's gonna do much more than that.
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And it's not gonna be just about doing
more in less time, but it actually
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can create the conditions for the
human workforce to fo focus on doing
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fewer things and doing them better.
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I think AI is gonna change our
relationship to productivity in that
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a lot of the things that we currently
associate with efficiency, so.
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Task speed, task volume, process speed.
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These are the types of things that
increasingly are gonna be outsourced
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to machines, and what that's gonna
mean is it's gonna shift human value
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creation over to the effectiveness
components of productivity.
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So creativity, making good
judgments and decisions, connecting
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and building relationships.
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All of these are the types of very human
skills and human traits that actually rely
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much more on all of those things we talked
about motivation, wellbeing, and energy.
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And so I think that those organizations
that are looking at AI as purely
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cost cutting, , short term squeezing
one to 2% more efficiency out of
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the workforce, are really coming
at this in a very shortsighted way.
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And that's where I think there, there
is this clear relationship between,
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artificial intelligence and the
prospect of a four day work week.
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Jared, did you want to come in?
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Lemme throw something at you as
the storyteller of the bunch.
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I like to anchor everything in
historical context and what Joe was
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talking about this transition to in
the skills that people need to.
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Thrive in this workforce.
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We talk about in the book, historically
before the Industrial Revolution the
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skills that we needed to survive and
thrive were very much, you know, human
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skills, like persistence, creativity the
stuff that we would characterize as
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soft skills, being able to communicate,
collaborate and the way in which we
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worked was probably something we'd
label as, as a little bit more human.
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And anyone who knows much about the
industrial Revolution knows that it
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was a race towards hyper productivity.
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That we were essentially, labor was
turned into a very calculable thing.
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Humans were turned into robots in a
way, and we lost much of the humanity
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and the skills required to thrive.
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, pre-industrial versus industrial
were completely different.
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And in the industrial age it wasn't about.
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Your, our most human traits was
about our most robotic traits.
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Efficiency, productivity,
punctuality, obedience, loyalty.
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These were prized in an industrial
world, and keep in mind that
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many of our rules and structures
are adopted from the industrial
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era, but we're now thanks to ai.
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Reentering a world past the industrial
era where once again, our most valued
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traits are those that are our most human.
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And so we've built this structure
of work to emphasize and
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maximize our most robotic traits.
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But the past of work and the future of
work are aligned in that our ability
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to be effective workers are gonna
depend on our most human traits.
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And that means rest time and
recovery actually have net output
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gains when it comes to doing those
quintessentially human things.
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And so as AI transitions the value
that individual workers bring from our
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most robotic traits to our most human
traits, I think there is an opportunity
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to create structures that are more
conducive to improving those most human
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traits, which again, come back to rest.
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And coming to work as our best selves.
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I often think about that, that you see in
organizations, usually the tech companies.
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You'll see sleep pods or you'll
see a gym, but what you don't
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see is people using them.
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And I think about this, like, imagine
you walked in to your CEO's office, your
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boss's office, and they're having a nap.
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The first thing you're gonna
think, well, it's well for you,
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but actually they should be.
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To your very point, they should be doing
that to get the best outta their mind.
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But because of that stigma that comes with
it, we don't do those things all the time.
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I'm sure you've seen a lot of
resistance to those things.
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Joe, I know you work in the field,
bringing that to life inside
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organizations, resistance to both the
four day workweek resistance to the
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future of work, but also resistance to ai.
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I think what you're talking about
is this kind of cultural hardwiring.
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That we've had within organizations
that conflate activity and presence
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and availability with performance
and dedication and commitment.
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And we talk in the book in a few
places about this challenge where,
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for example, some research from Harvard
this year talks about the existence
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of what they call the detachment
paradox, where managers believe that.
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When people disconnect from work and
detach from work and take time away from
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work, that's good for their performance.
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But yet, on the other hand, when people do
that, these managers punish them when it
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comes to job evaluations and promotions.
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And that's not because these managers
are inherently bad people, and
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it's not because they're trying to
sabotage the performance of their
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company, but it's because of this.
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Cultural and mindset, hard wiring that,
that exists in these organizations.
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And so because that's so deeply
ingrained, it takes a really big
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lever and a really big shift.
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To try and overcome that, and that's
what the Four Day Workweek represents.
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It is not just, magically and
automatically improving productivity
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by virtue of reducing time at work.
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It's about using this as a forcing
function and as an incentive to redesign
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work practices and processes, adopt new
technologies, and really to bring the
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workforce with you in that endeavor.
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That point about making work more
human and as a result more enjoyable
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is really important thing that
you talk about in book because.
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High quality talent inside organizations
is actually quite a scarce thing.
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And when you have it all aligned
and you have people engaged and
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working with their full discretionary
effort, you just get way more done.
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And I'd love you to share this
about the, some of the benefits
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of the four day workweek.
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Not only that will happen in the future,
but what you've seen from clients
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and what you've seen historically.
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So I think the benefits of a shorter
work week can be categorized almost.
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Under three main headings.
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The first is organizations who are using
this as a catalyst for productivity
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and for technological adoption.
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So, organizations that were
otherwise struggling to transform
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that were struggling to to really
mobilize the workforce around
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addressing some of these issues.
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Using the four day work week
as a shared reward, as an
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incentive to achieve those goals.
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The second is around, wellbeing and
really seeing the four day work week
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as a strategic tool to provide people
with, greater risk, greater recovery,
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and to overcome issues with burnout.
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And we know, if you take the
WHO definition of burnout.
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What it really means is people who
feel cynical towards their work,
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who feel a lack of confidence
in their own performance.
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And so therefore that's something
that isn't just an individual wellness
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problem, that is very much a corporate
productivity problem in its own right.
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And then the third one, and probably
the biggest thing that has really
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driven the increase of adoption of
this over the last number of years,
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and it relates to the tight labor
market that you were talking about.
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talent attraction and retention.
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And so it's organizations who see
the opportunity in a world where,
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according to Ranstad, for the first
time in the 25 years that they have
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been studying the global workforce.
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This year was the first year
that work-life balance was
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more important than pay.
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we've seen that across a
number of different studies
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that we cover in the book.
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And so in recognizing that organizations
have seen the opportunity to
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actually use the four day work week
as a competitive differentiator.
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To really develop this very unique
value proposition particularly
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for firms who maybe can't compete
in the top quartile of salary.
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And we tell some stories of organizations
in the book who, change the rules of
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the game because they couldn't play
the game under, we're trying to hire
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product developers and engineers, but
we're competing with Meta and Google.
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And doing something like a four day
work week is a creative alternative
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way to actually attract and
retain that top caliber of talent.
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00:14:25,292 --> 00:14:29,102
But it's important to say that you
don't recommend it as a perk.
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It's more of a new model of
actually working as well.
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Jared you write the
historical part of this.
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You've been writing about the
future of work for over a decade.
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Maybe from your perspective,
what have you seen, the shifts
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00:14:41,372 --> 00:14:43,412
you've seen to Joe's point about.
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00:14:43,812 --> 00:14:47,682
It's not these big companies, actually
it's other companies that can use
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00:14:47,682 --> 00:14:50,147
it as a competitive differentiator
to get that talent on board.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And as Joe mentioned we talked to
a few for this book that said that,
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previously they would offer remote
work before any of the large tech
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companies that they're competing with.
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We're offering remote work.
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00:15:01,979 --> 00:15:05,639
And that was how they attracted
talent away from folks who they
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can never compete with on salary.
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That's just a non-starter for them.
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And then all of a sudden remote
work became somewhat standardized.
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There's been a pullback lately,
but that was no longer a
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competitive differentiator.
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00:15:17,399 --> 00:15:20,399
And so they began to explore the
four day work week as the next
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big thing that they could offer
that their competitors weren't.
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And what I've seen over the
course of my career is that.
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For a long time we were talking about
a pretty small group of companies
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that were competing with each other
for the same talent and trying to
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outdo one another for those talent.
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Now, the world we exist in today is
that tech talent is needed in just
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about every corner of the economy.
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And so you've got companies well outside
of Silicon Valley in industries that
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would've never had to consider, global
competitive salaries before that are
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trying to attract and retain the same
talent that Google and Meta are despite
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being in completely different sectors.
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And so that globalization and
expansion of the competition in
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the talent marketplace is requiring
folks that can't compete on salary,
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which is the vast majority of.
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Those competing with Silicon
Valley to find other ways to
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compete more effectively.
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And so that's one of the advantages.
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we also find a huge amount of interest
and uptake in industries and in roles
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that are, particularly prone to burnout.
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00:16:25,669 --> 00:16:30,229
One of the companies that we profile
in the book is a family law firm.
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And the legal industry, and particularly
the family law side of the legal
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industry, faces some of the highest
burnout rates and has some of
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the most demanding work cultures.
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00:16:40,459 --> 00:16:42,979
And when you combine the two,
medicine's another good example.
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There are industries that.
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00:16:46,114 --> 00:16:51,004
willing to do anything to attract
and retain talent except give them
284
00:16:51,214 --> 00:16:55,974
a little bit more of a reasonable
lifestyle and something that the
285
00:16:55,974 --> 00:16:59,814
conversation once you've shift
the conversation from short-term
286
00:16:59,814 --> 00:17:02,124
productivity to long-term sustainability.
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00:17:02,369 --> 00:17:05,189
The four day work week becomes an
investment, paying a little bit of
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time now to keep this person in the
workforce and productive for longer.
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00:17:08,999 --> 00:17:14,849
And we're talking about scarce talent
in fields like technology, but also in,
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in fields as far as medicine and law.
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The opportunity to reduce burnout
and attrition and absenteeism
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00:17:23,039 --> 00:17:27,719
alone pays for any potential time
loss, which again, we can make up
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for by improving our processes.
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00:17:30,254 --> 00:17:33,074
And then the last one that I'll
mention is also, Joe touched on this
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as well, I just wanna bring it up.
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00:17:34,124 --> 00:17:39,734
That study after study is showing that
the average worker is afraid of ai.
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00:17:39,794 --> 00:17:46,064
They are not just failing to embrace
it wholeheartedly with open arms.
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They're actively sabotaging
the organizations.
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00:17:49,724 --> 00:17:54,044
Strategies for adopting AI because
there is genuine fear about what it
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00:17:54,044 --> 00:17:58,544
means, the implications for their
job whether or not it'll exist,
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what the responsibilities will be.
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00:18:00,974 --> 00:18:06,024
And this fear of ai a lot of
individuals are seeing it as
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an adversary, not as a partner.
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00:18:08,574 --> 00:18:11,419
And in order to shift that
conversation, it takes.
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00:18:12,594 --> 00:18:17,214
Organization sharing in the rewards
that AI promises, either through
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00:18:17,514 --> 00:18:23,454
compensation or through the time that
they're gonna get back that is a
307
00:18:23,484 --> 00:18:26,844
powerful opportunity to change the
conversation and to change the perspective
308
00:18:26,844 --> 00:18:30,474
from AI resistance to embracing
ai, which could be the competitive
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00:18:30,474 --> 00:18:34,359
differentiator for organizations of all
shapes and sizes in the coming years.
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In the book you talk about.
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An organization or an individual
advocating for work for a four day work
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00:18:42,316 --> 00:18:46,516
week and how they can do that without,
I mean, let's be honest, PE-people,
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00:18:46,696 --> 00:18:51,256
assuming they're trying to be lazy and
get an extra day off, but many people will
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00:18:51,256 --> 00:18:53,716
actually see the huge benefits of this.
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00:18:53,716 --> 00:18:57,646
And see, actually I'm way more effective
if I actually do a four day work week.
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00:18:58,036 --> 00:19:01,426
So I'd love you to share that for
people who are of that mind, they
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00:19:01,426 --> 00:19:04,456
wanna bring it to the organization
and then we'll move on to how to
318
00:19:04,456 --> 00:19:06,046
integrate it into an organization.
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00:19:06,413 --> 00:19:09,653
The first thing that I always
recommend is, you know how
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00:19:09,653 --> 00:19:10,493
you start this conversation.
321
00:19:11,393 --> 00:19:15,573
And I think as an individual employee,
you need to start this conversation from
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00:19:15,573 --> 00:19:21,833
the perspective of viewing this as, , not
a concession, not just a giveaway or a
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00:19:21,833 --> 00:19:25,703
perk as you described earlier, but as
a partnership with the organization to
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00:19:25,703 --> 00:19:29,613
actually achieve, whether it's, , the
organization is struggling with.
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00:19:29,993 --> 00:19:33,533
Retention or there's certain
productivity challenges or
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00:19:33,533 --> 00:19:35,273
technological adoption challenges.
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00:19:35,323 --> 00:19:39,313
Really framing this in the context that
you know, your leadership care about.
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00:19:40,203 --> 00:19:43,843
And being prepared to embrace
the conditionality of this.
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00:19:43,843 --> 00:19:46,623
That this is something that,
needs to work both for you as a
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00:19:46,623 --> 00:19:48,483
worker, but also for the business.
331
00:19:49,113 --> 00:19:52,023
And therefore the fact that.
332
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If you're running a pilot or if
you're trying this out, that needs
333
00:19:55,708 --> 00:20:00,718
to be explicitly linked to, business
metrics and what success looks like
334
00:20:00,718 --> 00:20:02,188
from the organization's perspective.
335
00:20:02,188 --> 00:20:05,098
What's gonna make this
sustainable for the organization?
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00:20:05,308 --> 00:20:08,778
I think, doing your preparation and
being prepared to have the conversation
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00:20:08,778 --> 00:20:13,848
on those terms will immediately open
up a dialogue that feels much less
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00:20:13,848 --> 00:20:18,178
adversarial and feels much more like, this
is something that can be a win-win vote
339
00:20:18,178 --> 00:20:20,338
for the business and for the workforce.
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00:20:20,584 --> 00:20:27,154
This is very easily dismissed as, trying
to get more time off and management
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00:20:27,154 --> 00:20:30,904
might not be totally open to that,
but when you frame it as a shared
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00:20:30,904 --> 00:20:35,074
opportunity to achieve business objectives
more effectively than you can open that
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00:20:35,074 --> 00:20:36,724
dialogue a little bit more effectively.
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00:20:37,204 --> 00:20:40,564
We offer case studies and we
hope that they are helpful
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00:20:40,564 --> 00:20:41,869
for organizations to find.
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00:20:42,919 --> 00:20:46,969
Others that look like them and look
like the problems that they're trying
347
00:20:46,969 --> 00:20:51,409
to solve and offer some specific
examples and a lot of data to show
348
00:20:51,409 --> 00:20:55,549
how those challenges that the business
is facing can be helped through the
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00:20:55,549 --> 00:20:56,959
adoption of a four day work week.
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00:20:57,169 --> 00:21:03,079
We also strongly recommend not going for
the whole big enchilada right off the bat.
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00:21:03,289 --> 00:21:06,749
If you say, Hey, move the whole
company to a, four day schedule and
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00:21:06,749 --> 00:21:08,219
we'll figure out how to make it work.
353
00:21:08,729 --> 00:21:13,439
It's a non-starter if you say, maybe
in a few months from now, we can
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experiment with a half day Friday for
a small corner of the organization.
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00:21:17,609 --> 00:21:21,239
And if they meet certain metrics
over a month long or two month
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00:21:21,239 --> 00:21:25,199
long trial, we expand it out
to more units of the business.
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00:21:25,199 --> 00:21:28,439
And once we've got a four and a
half day workweek moving smoothly,
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00:21:28,619 --> 00:21:31,829
we can investigate whether there's
opportunities to further time
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00:21:31,829 --> 00:21:33,329
without compromising outcomes.
360
00:21:33,539 --> 00:21:33,689
So.
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00:21:34,559 --> 00:21:39,119
Starting small approaching the
conversation with your employer's
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00:21:39,449 --> 00:21:43,529
organization's perspective in mind and
really identifying the challenges that
363
00:21:43,529 --> 00:21:47,429
they're trying to solve and framing
this as a solution to those challenges.
364
00:21:48,029 --> 00:21:51,839
And using some of the examples that we
provided to show how it is an effective.
365
00:21:52,064 --> 00:21:56,084
Solution for a lot of those
main challenges we discussed.
366
00:21:56,114 --> 00:22:00,194
Namely you know, AI and technological
adoption and productivity
367
00:22:00,764 --> 00:22:03,884
addressing burnout and absenteeism
and recruitment and retention.
368
00:22:04,034 --> 00:22:06,884
If your organization's struggling
with those, which most organizations
369
00:22:06,884 --> 00:22:10,214
are framing it as a solution
that's been proven more effective
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00:22:10,214 --> 00:22:13,574
than the other solution, is the
way to start this conversation.
371
00:22:13,724 --> 00:22:18,814
And again, start small and, go
in with their perspective in mind.
372
00:22:19,679 --> 00:22:21,299
Let's move then to the organization.
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00:22:21,299 --> 00:22:23,459
So the organization, Adoption.
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00:22:23,999 --> 00:22:27,719
Of this, and then maybe we'll
finish with you as an individual
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00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:30,929
and how you can integrate it for
yourself so you're actually being
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00:22:30,929 --> 00:22:32,279
the most effective you could be.
377
00:22:33,148 --> 00:22:36,268
So I think one of the critical things
to recognize from an organizational
378
00:22:36,268 --> 00:22:40,948
standpoint is that this is not just
purely a personal productivity initiative.
379
00:22:41,308 --> 00:22:45,238
This is something that absolutely
can connect as an incentive to drive
380
00:22:45,448 --> 00:22:50,728
individuals to adopt new productivity
practices, new tools create more focus
381
00:22:50,728 --> 00:22:52,588
and less distraction in the workday.
382
00:22:52,948 --> 00:22:56,728
However, at its heart, this is very
much a collective endeavor, and I
383
00:22:56,728 --> 00:23:00,478
think if you compare the difference
between a four day work week.
384
00:23:00,888 --> 00:23:06,438
Pilot or implementation effort within an
organization to giving people an annual
385
00:23:06,438 --> 00:23:12,198
pay rise or offering people more personal
flexibility or access to remote options.
386
00:23:12,558 --> 00:23:15,618
Those are things that are very much
they're framed at the individual level.
387
00:23:15,888 --> 00:23:19,758
Whereas I think when a four day work week
works particularly well is when there's
388
00:23:19,758 --> 00:23:24,343
this collective effort, both within teams
and within the organization as a whole.
389
00:23:25,068 --> 00:23:29,898
To address things like, how we meet, how
we collaborate, how we make decisions.
390
00:23:29,898 --> 00:23:34,488
These are all things that no one
individual on their own can solve.
391
00:23:34,848 --> 00:23:37,998
But with this kind of shared
reward of a four day work week, it
392
00:23:37,998 --> 00:23:41,928
offers the opportunity to actually
think differently about how the
393
00:23:41,928 --> 00:23:43,123
business operates as a whole.
394
00:23:43,183 --> 00:23:45,588
So I think approaching this collectively.
395
00:23:45,923 --> 00:23:50,153
Attacking that low hanging fruit
that we know exists in terms of
396
00:23:50,303 --> 00:23:54,733
meeting bloat, distraction in
the workday, outdated processes.
397
00:23:55,213 --> 00:23:58,663
And really using this as a frame by
which people collectively go about
398
00:23:58,663 --> 00:24:00,043
solving some of those problems.
399
00:24:00,043 --> 00:24:04,333
We've talked about personal advocacy,
we've talked about the organization,
400
00:24:04,663 --> 00:24:09,103
but then your organization does
not want to do it and you can't
401
00:24:09,463 --> 00:24:13,093
hide from that organization,
but you are a believer in this.
402
00:24:13,303 --> 00:24:14,063
What can you do?
403
00:24:14,935 --> 00:24:18,925
It's extremely helpful when
this is a shared effort.
404
00:24:18,955 --> 00:24:21,985
It becomes so much easier to
find efficiencies to improve.
405
00:24:22,045 --> 00:24:26,485
Processes when the organization
is really invested in this idea.
406
00:24:26,485 --> 00:24:32,485
However, there's a lot of stuff that as
strategies and advice that we offer for
407
00:24:32,485 --> 00:24:36,655
the individual who's just looking to find
more hours in their day, and this might be
408
00:24:36,655 --> 00:24:39,755
for the folks who are hopeful that a four
day work week might be in their future.
409
00:24:40,535 --> 00:24:43,775
might be for folks that are working a
few too many Saturdays and a few too
410
00:24:43,775 --> 00:24:49,205
many evenings and are trying to get back
to a more manageable grasp on work.
411
00:24:49,475 --> 00:24:53,855
And it starts with auditing how they
spend their time at work and really
412
00:24:53,855 --> 00:24:57,215
being honest with themselves and
maybe even putting some pen to paper
413
00:24:57,215 --> 00:24:59,585
and tracking how that time is spent.
414
00:25:00,125 --> 00:25:02,285
Looking for rooms for efficiency.
415
00:25:02,435 --> 00:25:05,615
We talk about the importance
of having a very clear.
416
00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:11,130
To-do list and a clear priority list, and
giving each hour of the day a mission.
417
00:25:11,130 --> 00:25:14,880
So starting the day with an understanding
of what is absolutely critical, what
418
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,080
success will be for me today, and
then working within that framework
419
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,210
to really ensure that the top.
420
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,810
Priorities are addressed first because
often, you know, we start our day
421
00:25:25,810 --> 00:25:28,510
with an hour of emailing and then
have a two hour meeting, and then
422
00:25:28,510 --> 00:25:31,300
it's, you know, lunchtime before we've
actually done any of the meaningful
423
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:36,820
work that is really gonna up
that time that we're looking for.
424
00:25:37,870 --> 00:25:39,430
We also talk about some.
425
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,820
Seemingly obvious opportunities
to increase productivity that
426
00:25:44,820 --> 00:25:47,460
maybe are worthy of a reminder.
427
00:25:48,150 --> 00:25:50,820
For example, finding ways
to minimize distractions.
428
00:25:51,490 --> 00:25:53,530
making peace with
imperfection is a big one.
429
00:25:53,530 --> 00:25:56,860
I think too often folks get hung
up on trying to make things a
430
00:25:56,860 --> 00:25:58,945
hundred percent when 80% will do.
431
00:25:59,950 --> 00:26:04,420
As we describe in the book giving
gold level effort to bronze level
432
00:26:04,420 --> 00:26:06,385
priorities there, there's a lot of.
433
00:26:07,070 --> 00:26:10,520
Things that happen within the
day that aren't as necessary.
434
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:15,230
And all of those little additions to our
schedule end up taking big bites out of
435
00:26:15,230 --> 00:26:19,220
time that could be better spent elsewhere,
either professionally or personally.
436
00:26:19,220 --> 00:26:23,300
And then finally, there's a lot of
science and research about how to make.
437
00:26:23,505 --> 00:26:27,105
The most out of your day based
on when our brains are at
438
00:26:27,105 --> 00:26:28,875
their best for certain tasks.
439
00:26:29,325 --> 00:26:34,545
Our circadian rhythms really dictate when
is the best time of the day to do certain
440
00:26:34,545 --> 00:26:39,645
things, when we're gonna be most creative,
most analytical, and figuring out, doing
441
00:26:39,645 --> 00:26:43,425
a little bit of work on the forefront
to understand how your brain works best,
442
00:26:43,455 --> 00:26:47,925
what those fluctuations are, and trying
to optimize your schedule accordingly to
443
00:26:47,925 --> 00:26:49,665
the best that you can do as an individual.
444
00:26:50,285 --> 00:26:53,825
Are just some of the ways in which you
can really get more out of the hours you
445
00:26:53,825 --> 00:26:59,915
work and hopefully find some of these
efficiencies useful in getting your time
446
00:26:59,915 --> 00:27:03,185
back, even if your organization hasn't
agreed to move to a four day work week.
447
00:27:03,845 --> 00:27:10,475
It's a brilliant book and it's out
on January 13th, 2026 in the uk.
448
00:27:10,475 --> 00:27:13,625
I don't know whether that's the case
in the US but certainly in the uk.
449
00:27:14,055 --> 00:27:17,985
Guys, for people who wanna find you,
where's the best place to find you?
450
00:27:17,985 --> 00:27:22,535
I know Jared, you write for a lot
of top organizations, but where can
451
00:27:22,535 --> 00:27:24,185
people find out you to reach out?
452
00:27:24,185 --> 00:27:25,315
And Joe then will come to you as well.
453
00:27:27,450 --> 00:27:30,970
The best place to find both
of us is domoreinfour.com.
454
00:27:31,290 --> 00:27:34,470
We got a website for the book
where you can find more information
455
00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:36,060
and reach out to us individually.
456
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,470
I also have my website,
jaredLindzon.com where I post all of my.
457
00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:45,360
Research and articles about the four day
work week and all things future of work.
458
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,945
And Joe, where's the best
place for people to find you?
459
00:27:50,220 --> 00:27:50,955
Our website.
460
00:27:50,955 --> 00:27:52,305
I run a future of work.
461
00:27:52,305 --> 00:27:55,905
Consulting advising and research
firm called Worktime Revolution.
462
00:27:55,905 --> 00:27:58,155
You can find us on
worktime revolution.com.
463
00:27:58,155 --> 00:28:02,025
You can also find me and Worktime
Revolution on LinkedIn, and I have a
464
00:28:02,025 --> 00:28:03,915
substack that people can subscribe to.
465
00:28:04,310 --> 00:28:07,700
And I will link to all those
different locations as well.
466
00:28:08,180 --> 00:28:09,350
Authors of do more.
467
00:28:09,350 --> 00:28:11,930
in four, why it's time
for a shorter work week.
468
00:28:11,930 --> 00:28:15,080
Joe O'Connor and Jared Lindzon,
thank you for joining us.
469
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:15,605
Thank you for having us.
470
00:28:15,610 --> 00:28:15,981
for having us.
471
00:28:15,981 --> 00:28:16,401
Thanks.
472
00:28:17,276 --> 00:28:19,466
Thanks for joining us on Inside Learning.
473
00:28:19,526 --> 00:28:23,156
Inside Learning is brought to you by the
Learnovate Centre in Trinity College.
474
00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:27,266
Dublin Learnovate is funded by
Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland.
475
00:28:27,356 --> 00:28:31,796
Visit learnovate Centre.org to find out
more about our research on the science
476
00:28:31,796 --> 00:28:33,356
of learning and the future of work.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,940
The Inside Learning Podcast is brought
to you by the Learnovate Centre.
2
00:00:04,110 --> 00:00:08,460
Learnovate research explores the power
of learning to unlock human potential.
3
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Find out more about learnovate research
on the science of learning and the
4
00:00:12,150 --> 00:00:15,049
future of work@learnovateCentre.org.
5
00:00:15,399 --> 00:00:19,929
The five day work week is a pillar of
modern life, but it isn't backed by
6
00:00:19,929 --> 00:00:22,779
science, ancient wisdom, or divine decree.
7
00:00:23,139 --> 00:00:27,189
It's simply a relic of the industrial
age and it's time for an upgrade.
8
00:00:27,759 --> 00:00:30,964
What if we could accomplish
more while working fewer days?
9
00:00:31,869 --> 00:00:34,659
A shortened work week once
seemed like a radical idea.
10
00:00:34,809 --> 00:00:38,949
Today it's embraced by innovative
business leaders, forward thinking
11
00:00:39,039 --> 00:00:43,389
politicians, and a new generation of
workers demanding more meaningful work.
12
00:00:44,379 --> 00:00:44,954
In today's book.
13
00:00:45,609 --> 00:00:50,769
Our guests are a pioneer of designing
and leading four day workweek pilots
14
00:00:50,769 --> 00:00:53,979
around the globe, and a journalist
whose work has appeared in the New
15
00:00:53,979 --> 00:00:56,649
York Times Fortune and Time Magazine
16
00:00:56,889 --> 00:01:00,999
and they present a groundbreaking,
data-driven exploration of why a four
17
00:01:00,999 --> 00:01:03,369
day workweek is not merely possible.
18
00:01:03,729 --> 00:01:07,329
It's necessary in an age
of artificial intelligence.
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00:01:07,809 --> 00:01:12,759
It is a pleasure to welcome before
it's even launched, the authors of
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00:01:12,759 --> 00:01:17,619
Do More in Four, it offers a battle
tested blueprint for a smarter,
21
00:01:17,619 --> 00:01:19,389
more humane approach to work.
22
00:01:19,899 --> 00:01:21,214
And we're joined by both authors.
23
00:01:22,314 --> 00:01:25,674
Joe O'Connor and Jared
Lindzon, welcome to the show.
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00:01:26,077 --> 00:01:26,587
Pleasure to be here.
25
00:01:26,887 --> 00:01:27,577
Thanks for having us.
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Great to have you with us guys.
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I have so many questions.
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, But I thought first we'd start
straight out and put it out our stall.
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Why a four day work week?
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00:01:37,716 --> 00:01:40,416
Maybe we'll start first with you,
Jared, and then come to you, Joe.
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Why a four day work week?
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00:01:42,234 --> 00:01:45,594
Well, I think maybe the best
place to begin is by actually
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00:01:45,594 --> 00:01:47,844
questioning why five days?
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00:01:47,844 --> 00:01:49,869
Why is that the way
that we've always done?
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00:01:50,184 --> 00:01:54,624
Done things and is that still the best way
to do things and folks often think that
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00:01:54,629 --> 00:01:59,919
there's a good reason behind the five day
work week that it was created with a lot
37
00:01:59,919 --> 00:02:05,649
of thought and intention and it optimized
the ideal amount of rest and work time.
38
00:02:05,649 --> 00:02:09,099
But it's very arbitrary and we
go into details in the book about
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00:02:09,699 --> 00:02:13,509
various labor rights movements that
ended up leading to a five day work
40
00:02:13,509 --> 00:02:15,009
week, not even all that long ago.
41
00:02:15,009 --> 00:02:17,799
It only became law in the United
States about 80, 80 years ago.
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00:02:18,609 --> 00:02:20,499
became standard a little bit before that.
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00:02:21,369 --> 00:02:25,569
And so once we start questioning the
wisdom of the five day work week,
44
00:02:25,569 --> 00:02:28,869
it gives us permission to start
considering whether or not that
45
00:02:28,869 --> 00:02:31,239
still suits our modern realities.
46
00:02:31,449 --> 00:02:34,969
And so the reality for most
organizations, most workers is.
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00:02:35,689 --> 00:02:38,149
There's a lot of time spent at
work, but there's not a lot of
48
00:02:38,149 --> 00:02:42,469
time spent at work doing stuff that
really matters for the business'.
49
00:02:42,679 --> 00:02:45,889
Total output and
outcomes in the long run.
50
00:02:46,129 --> 00:02:50,869
And when you start to pare down all of
the noise, all of the extra stuff, all
51
00:02:50,869 --> 00:02:55,129
the email writing and meeting attendance,
and the stuff that takes up a lot of our
52
00:02:55,129 --> 00:02:56,959
time, but doesn't really move the needle.
53
00:02:57,214 --> 00:03:00,514
Once you get rid of that, you realize
that there is an opportunity to
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00:03:00,514 --> 00:03:04,294
reduce the work week without getting
rid of the work that really matters.
55
00:03:04,534 --> 00:03:09,154
And if you wanna inspire people to do
the difficult work of assessing how
56
00:03:09,154 --> 00:03:13,054
they spend their time, incorporating
new technologies, new systems, new
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00:03:13,054 --> 00:03:17,974
processes, to really optimize every minute
they're on the clock, it takes a big
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00:03:17,974 --> 00:03:20,914
incentive to inspire that kind of effort.
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00:03:20,914 --> 00:03:24,424
And the four day work week is
the perfect combination of.
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00:03:24,729 --> 00:03:29,859
Providing that shared incentive and
rewarding people for doing the work and
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00:03:30,429 --> 00:03:34,629
sort of galvanizing force to ensure
that the time that we're spending at
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00:03:34,629 --> 00:03:39,009
work is really time well spent and it's
not wasted, and therefore it gives us
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00:03:39,009 --> 00:03:41,259
the freedom to do more in less time.
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00:03:41,710 --> 00:03:45,400
The big picture of why it's time
for a four day work week from a
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00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,690
societal perspective for me is
the fact that we have had decades
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00:03:49,690 --> 00:03:53,800
now of incredible technological
advancements and productivity
67
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,830
gains, the types of advances that.
68
00:03:57,625 --> 00:04:01,735
John Maynard Keynes when he predicted in
the 1920s that we'd all be working a 15
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00:04:01,735 --> 00:04:03,745
hour work week by the end of the century.
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00:04:03,925 --> 00:04:06,475
Richard Nixon went in the
middle of the fifties.
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00:04:06,475 --> 00:04:10,375
He talked about how we were on the
cusp of a four day work week that
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00:04:10,375 --> 00:04:13,585
would lead to a fuller and fairer
family life for every American.
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00:04:14,125 --> 00:04:16,555
We've had the kinds of
progress that we could.
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00:04:16,775 --> 00:04:18,065
Never even have imagined.
75
00:04:18,455 --> 00:04:22,925
And yet the gains of that progress have
not necessarily been equitably shared
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00:04:22,925 --> 00:04:24,575
and distributed with the workforce.
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00:04:24,905 --> 00:04:28,325
And I think this has led to a lot
of the challenges that we have in
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00:04:28,325 --> 00:04:33,225
our current moment when we think
about division, economic inequality.
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00:04:33,495 --> 00:04:38,824
And so I think big picture we enter
the age of , intelligence, and
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00:04:38,824 --> 00:04:43,194
everything that brings, I think it's
absolutely the right time to reevaluate,
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00:04:43,444 --> 00:04:47,734
our relationship with work and what
constitutes the modern work week.
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00:04:48,184 --> 00:04:53,879
I think at an enterprise level, as Jared
talked about, the nature of productivity
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00:04:53,879 --> 00:05:01,979
has changed such that ours worked is
actually not as direct A, a contributor
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00:05:02,069 --> 00:05:07,019
to modern productivity as the motivation
of the workforce, the energy and
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00:05:07,019 --> 00:05:11,009
attention and focus of the workforce, the
wellbeing and recovery of the workforce.
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00:05:11,009 --> 00:05:15,719
And so all of these dimensions that
are really critical to sustaining high
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00:05:15,719 --> 00:05:20,069
performance in modern work can all
be leveraged and optimized through
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00:05:20,069 --> 00:05:21,449
something like a four day work week.
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00:05:22,010 --> 00:05:24,920
I wanted to build particularly on
the artificial intelligence thing,
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00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,860
because many people will see that as a
replacement, but in a way, what you guys
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00:05:29,860 --> 00:05:34,370
talk about is in an augmentation and
actually doing away with some of , those
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00:05:34,370 --> 00:05:39,700
meaningless tasks, meetings, anybody, I
think the unnecessary meeting aspect
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00:05:39,700 --> 00:05:44,380
of work is one of the biggest killers of
both productivity and morale in companies.
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00:05:44,650 --> 00:05:49,360
But I'd love to hear from you what
you think AI will bring to the table.
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00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,340
, Why will that reshuffle
how we actually work?
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00:05:52,214 --> 00:05:56,264
Most of the stories that we talk
about in the book of how organizations
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00:05:56,264 --> 00:05:59,204
have transitioned to a shorter
work week are all about how they
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00:05:59,204 --> 00:06:01,034
found ways to do more in less time.
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00:06:01,064 --> 00:06:05,354
And often technology was a big part of
that story, automating certain tasks,
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00:06:05,354 --> 00:06:07,484
streamlining administrative processes.
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00:06:07,904 --> 00:06:11,174
But if we look at what's coming down
the road in terms of agent AI and
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digital labor and the workforce.
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00:06:13,364 --> 00:06:14,684
That's gonna do much more than that.
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And it's not gonna be just about doing
more in less time, but it actually
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00:06:18,314 --> 00:06:22,094
can create the conditions for the
human workforce to fo focus on doing
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00:06:22,094 --> 00:06:24,134
fewer things and doing them better.
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00:06:24,854 --> 00:06:28,424
I think AI is gonna change our
relationship to productivity in that
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a lot of the things that we currently
associate with efficiency, so.
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Task speed, task volume, process speed.
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These are the types of things that
increasingly are gonna be outsourced
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to machines, and what that's gonna
mean is it's gonna shift human value
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00:06:41,899 --> 00:06:45,919
creation over to the effectiveness
components of productivity.
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00:06:46,249 --> 00:06:49,759
So creativity, making good
judgments and decisions, connecting
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00:06:49,759 --> 00:06:50,839
and building relationships.
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00:06:51,569 --> 00:06:56,459
All of these are the types of very human
skills and human traits that actually rely
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00:06:56,489 --> 00:07:00,659
much more on all of those things we talked
about motivation, wellbeing, and energy.
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00:07:00,659 --> 00:07:04,379
And so I think that those organizations
that are looking at AI as purely
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00:07:05,249 --> 00:07:10,339
cost cutting, , short term squeezing
one to 2% more efficiency out of
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00:07:10,339 --> 00:07:14,299
the workforce, are really coming
at this in a very shortsighted way.
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00:07:15,049 --> 00:07:18,529
And that's where I think there, there
is this clear relationship between,
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00:07:18,709 --> 00:07:21,559
artificial intelligence and the
prospect of a four day work week.
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00:07:23,244 --> 00:07:24,244
Jared, did you want to come in?
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00:07:24,652 --> 00:07:27,982
Lemme throw something at you as
the storyteller of the bunch.
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00:07:28,492 --> 00:07:31,552
I like to anchor everything in
historical context and what Joe was
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00:07:31,552 --> 00:07:36,802
talking about this transition to in
the skills that people need to.
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00:07:36,982 --> 00:07:38,032
Thrive in this workforce.
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00:07:38,032 --> 00:07:44,062
We talk about in the book, historically
before the Industrial Revolution the
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skills that we needed to survive and
thrive were very much, you know, human
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00:07:48,172 --> 00:07:53,002
skills, like persistence, creativity the
stuff that we would characterize as
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00:07:53,002 --> 00:07:57,172
soft skills, being able to communicate,
collaborate and the way in which we
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00:07:57,172 --> 00:08:00,592
worked was probably something we'd
label as, as a little bit more human.
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00:08:00,867 --> 00:08:04,467
And anyone who knows much about the
industrial Revolution knows that it
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was a race towards hyper productivity.
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00:08:06,567 --> 00:08:13,167
That we were essentially, labor was
turned into a very calculable thing.
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00:08:13,197 --> 00:08:18,227
Humans were turned into robots in a
way, and we lost much of the humanity
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and the skills required to thrive.
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, pre-industrial versus industrial
were completely different.
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And in the industrial age it wasn't about.
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00:08:26,172 --> 00:08:29,052
Your, our most human traits was
about our most robotic traits.
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00:08:29,732 --> 00:08:34,172
Efficiency, productivity,
punctuality, obedience, loyalty.
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00:08:34,172 --> 00:08:37,442
These were prized in an industrial
world, and keep in mind that
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00:08:37,442 --> 00:08:41,102
many of our rules and structures
are adopted from the industrial
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00:08:41,132 --> 00:08:42,512
era, but we're now thanks to ai.
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Reentering a world past the industrial
era where once again, our most valued
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00:08:48,557 --> 00:08:50,957
traits are those that are our most human.
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00:08:51,287 --> 00:08:55,397
And so we've built this structure
of work to emphasize and
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00:08:55,397 --> 00:08:57,797
maximize our most robotic traits.
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But the past of work and the future of
work are aligned in that our ability
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00:09:02,667 --> 00:09:05,487
to be effective workers are gonna
depend on our most human traits.
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00:09:05,487 --> 00:09:11,427
And that means rest time and
recovery actually have net output
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00:09:11,427 --> 00:09:15,447
gains when it comes to doing those
quintessentially human things.
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00:09:16,197 --> 00:09:20,637
And so as AI transitions the value
that individual workers bring from our
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00:09:20,637 --> 00:09:25,257
most robotic traits to our most human
traits, I think there is an opportunity
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00:09:25,257 --> 00:09:30,687
to create structures that are more
conducive to improving those most human
155
00:09:30,687 --> 00:09:33,687
traits, which again, come back to rest.
156
00:09:34,347 --> 00:09:36,717
And coming to work as our best selves.
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00:09:36,717 --> 00:09:40,592
I often think about that, that you see in
organizations, usually the tech companies.
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00:09:40,592 --> 00:09:44,822
You'll see sleep pods or you'll
see a gym, but what you don't
159
00:09:44,822 --> 00:09:45,932
see is people using them.
160
00:09:47,432 --> 00:09:52,092
And I think about this, like, imagine
you walked in to your CEO's office, your
161
00:09:52,092 --> 00:09:54,432
boss's office, and they're having a nap.
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00:09:54,882 --> 00:09:57,012
The first thing you're gonna
think, well, it's well for you,
163
00:09:57,342 --> 00:09:58,432
but actually they should be.
164
00:09:59,187 --> 00:10:02,637
To your very point, they should be doing
that to get the best outta their mind.
165
00:10:03,057 --> 00:10:07,047
But because of that stigma that comes with
it, we don't do those things all the time.
166
00:10:07,377 --> 00:10:09,567
I'm sure you've seen a lot of
resistance to those things.
167
00:10:09,567 --> 00:10:12,387
Joe, I know you work in the field,
bringing that to life inside
168
00:10:12,387 --> 00:10:16,857
organizations, resistance to both the
four day workweek resistance to the
169
00:10:16,857 --> 00:10:18,692
future of work, but also resistance to ai.
170
00:10:18,904 --> 00:10:22,179
I think what you're talking about
is this kind of cultural hardwiring.
171
00:10:22,199 --> 00:10:26,579
That we've had within organizations
that conflate activity and presence
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00:10:26,579 --> 00:10:29,909
and availability with performance
and dedication and commitment.
173
00:10:30,479 --> 00:10:34,589
And we talk in the book in a few
places about this challenge where,
174
00:10:34,589 --> 00:10:38,939
for example, some research from Harvard
this year talks about the existence
175
00:10:38,939 --> 00:10:43,409
of what they call the detachment
paradox, where managers believe that.
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00:10:45,644 --> 00:10:49,904
When people disconnect from work and
detach from work and take time away from
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00:10:49,904 --> 00:10:52,064
work, that's good for their performance.
178
00:10:52,214 --> 00:10:57,074
But yet, on the other hand, when people do
that, these managers punish them when it
179
00:10:57,074 --> 00:11:00,134
comes to job evaluations and promotions.
180
00:11:00,314 --> 00:11:03,464
And that's not because these managers
are inherently bad people, and
181
00:11:03,464 --> 00:11:06,434
it's not because they're trying to
sabotage the performance of their
182
00:11:06,434 --> 00:11:08,109
company, but it's because of this.
183
00:11:08,654 --> 00:11:13,064
Cultural and mindset, hard wiring that,
that exists in these organizations.
184
00:11:13,334 --> 00:11:17,204
And so because that's so deeply
ingrained, it takes a really big
185
00:11:17,204 --> 00:11:18,884
lever and a really big shift.
186
00:11:19,269 --> 00:11:22,419
To try and overcome that, and that's
what the Four Day Workweek represents.
187
00:11:22,449 --> 00:11:26,619
It is not just, magically and
automatically improving productivity
188
00:11:26,619 --> 00:11:29,019
by virtue of reducing time at work.
189
00:11:29,169 --> 00:11:34,119
It's about using this as a forcing
function and as an incentive to redesign
190
00:11:34,119 --> 00:11:38,679
work practices and processes, adopt new
technologies, and really to bring the
191
00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:40,274
workforce with you in that endeavor.
192
00:11:40,655 --> 00:11:46,115
That point about making work more
human and as a result more enjoyable
193
00:11:46,535 --> 00:11:49,025
is really important thing that
you talk about in book because.
194
00:11:50,255 --> 00:11:54,815
High quality talent inside organizations
is actually quite a scarce thing.
195
00:11:55,205 --> 00:11:58,265
And when you have it all aligned
and you have people engaged and
196
00:11:58,385 --> 00:12:02,285
working with their full discretionary
effort, you just get way more done.
197
00:12:02,405 --> 00:12:05,945
And I'd love you to share this
about the, some of the benefits
198
00:12:05,975 --> 00:12:07,265
of the four day workweek.
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00:12:07,415 --> 00:12:11,765
Not only that will happen in the future,
but what you've seen from clients
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and what you've seen historically.
201
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So I think the benefits of a shorter
work week can be categorized almost.
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Under three main headings.
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The first is organizations who are using
this as a catalyst for productivity
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and for technological adoption.
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00:12:26,387 --> 00:12:30,427
So, organizations that were
otherwise struggling to transform
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00:12:30,427 --> 00:12:34,747
that were struggling to to really
mobilize the workforce around
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00:12:34,747 --> 00:12:36,367
addressing some of these issues.
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Using the four day work week
as a shared reward, as an
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incentive to achieve those goals.
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The second is around, wellbeing and
really seeing the four day work week
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00:12:46,397 --> 00:12:51,427
as a strategic tool to provide people
with, greater risk, greater recovery,
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00:12:51,547 --> 00:12:53,827
and to overcome issues with burnout.
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00:12:53,857 --> 00:12:56,617
And we know, if you take the
WHO definition of burnout.
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What it really means is people who
feel cynical towards their work,
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who feel a lack of confidence
in their own performance.
216
00:13:04,192 --> 00:13:07,672
And so therefore that's something
that isn't just an individual wellness
217
00:13:07,672 --> 00:13:11,782
problem, that is very much a corporate
productivity problem in its own right.
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00:13:12,652 --> 00:13:15,862
And then the third one, and probably
the biggest thing that has really
219
00:13:16,012 --> 00:13:19,852
driven the increase of adoption of
this over the last number of years,
220
00:13:19,852 --> 00:13:23,092
and it relates to the tight labor
market that you were talking about.
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00:13:23,842 --> 00:13:25,342
talent attraction and retention.
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00:13:25,822 --> 00:13:29,422
And so it's organizations who see
the opportunity in a world where,
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according to Ranstad, for the first
time in the 25 years that they have
224
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been studying the global workforce.
225
00:13:35,932 --> 00:13:38,662
This year was the first year
that work-life balance was
226
00:13:38,662 --> 00:13:40,132
more important than pay.
227
00:13:40,852 --> 00:13:43,312
we've seen that across a
number of different studies
228
00:13:43,312 --> 00:13:44,572
that we cover in the book.
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00:13:44,932 --> 00:13:49,162
And so in recognizing that organizations
have seen the opportunity to
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actually use the four day work week
as a competitive differentiator.
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00:13:53,277 --> 00:13:57,627
To really develop this very unique
value proposition particularly
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00:13:57,627 --> 00:14:01,977
for firms who maybe can't compete
in the top quartile of salary.
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00:14:02,547 --> 00:14:07,097
And we tell some stories of organizations
in the book who, change the rules of
234
00:14:07,097 --> 00:14:11,707
the game because they couldn't play
the game under, we're trying to hire
235
00:14:11,797 --> 00:14:16,297
product developers and engineers, but
we're competing with Meta and Google.
236
00:14:17,827 --> 00:14:21,187
And doing something like a four day
work week is a creative alternative
237
00:14:21,187 --> 00:14:24,662
way to actually attract and
retain that top caliber of talent.
238
00:14:25,292 --> 00:14:29,102
But it's important to say that you
don't recommend it as a perk.
239
00:14:29,252 --> 00:14:32,522
It's more of a new model of
actually working as well.
240
00:14:32,642 --> 00:14:35,552
Jared you write the
historical part of this.
241
00:14:35,552 --> 00:14:38,072
You've been writing about the
future of work for over a decade.
242
00:14:38,522 --> 00:14:41,372
Maybe from your perspective,
what have you seen, the shifts
243
00:14:41,372 --> 00:14:43,412
you've seen to Joe's point about.
244
00:14:43,812 --> 00:14:47,682
It's not these big companies, actually
it's other companies that can use
245
00:14:47,682 --> 00:14:50,147
it as a competitive differentiator
to get that talent on board.
246
00:14:50,789 --> 00:14:51,689
Yeah, absolutely.
247
00:14:51,689 --> 00:14:55,229
And as Joe mentioned we talked to
a few for this book that said that,
248
00:14:55,229 --> 00:14:59,099
previously they would offer remote
work before any of the large tech
249
00:14:59,099 --> 00:15:00,509
companies that they're competing with.
250
00:15:00,839 --> 00:15:01,979
We're offering remote work.
251
00:15:01,979 --> 00:15:05,639
And that was how they attracted
talent away from folks who they
252
00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:07,379
can never compete with on salary.
253
00:15:07,379 --> 00:15:09,239
That's just a non-starter for them.
254
00:15:10,109 --> 00:15:13,019
And then all of a sudden remote
work became somewhat standardized.
255
00:15:13,049 --> 00:15:15,779
There's been a pullback lately,
but that was no longer a
256
00:15:15,779 --> 00:15:17,279
competitive differentiator.
257
00:15:17,399 --> 00:15:20,399
And so they began to explore the
four day work week as the next
258
00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:23,909
big thing that they could offer
that their competitors weren't.
259
00:15:23,969 --> 00:15:27,449
And what I've seen over the
course of my career is that.
260
00:15:27,729 --> 00:15:32,079
For a long time we were talking about
a pretty small group of companies
261
00:15:32,079 --> 00:15:34,539
that were competing with each other
for the same talent and trying to
262
00:15:34,539 --> 00:15:37,299
outdo one another for those talent.
263
00:15:37,539 --> 00:15:40,839
Now, the world we exist in today is
that tech talent is needed in just
264
00:15:40,839 --> 00:15:42,399
about every corner of the economy.
265
00:15:42,399 --> 00:15:47,109
And so you've got companies well outside
of Silicon Valley in industries that
266
00:15:47,109 --> 00:15:52,054
would've never had to consider, global
competitive salaries before that are
267
00:15:52,054 --> 00:15:56,374
trying to attract and retain the same
talent that Google and Meta are despite
268
00:15:56,374 --> 00:15:58,204
being in completely different sectors.
269
00:15:58,504 --> 00:16:03,304
And so that globalization and
expansion of the competition in
270
00:16:03,304 --> 00:16:07,894
the talent marketplace is requiring
folks that can't compete on salary,
271
00:16:07,894 --> 00:16:09,424
which is the vast majority of.
272
00:16:09,739 --> 00:16:13,549
Those competing with Silicon
Valley to find other ways to
273
00:16:13,549 --> 00:16:14,839
compete more effectively.
274
00:16:15,589 --> 00:16:17,029
And so that's one of the advantages.
275
00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:22,669
we also find a huge amount of interest
and uptake in industries and in roles
276
00:16:22,669 --> 00:16:25,609
that are, particularly prone to burnout.
277
00:16:25,669 --> 00:16:30,229
One of the companies that we profile
in the book is a family law firm.
278
00:16:30,889 --> 00:16:34,609
And the legal industry, and particularly
the family law side of the legal
279
00:16:34,609 --> 00:16:38,689
industry, faces some of the highest
burnout rates and has some of
280
00:16:38,689 --> 00:16:40,189
the most demanding work cultures.
281
00:16:40,459 --> 00:16:42,979
And when you combine the two,
medicine's another good example.
282
00:16:43,729 --> 00:16:45,109
There are industries that.
283
00:16:46,114 --> 00:16:51,004
willing to do anything to attract
and retain talent except give them
284
00:16:51,214 --> 00:16:55,974
a little bit more of a reasonable
lifestyle and something that the
285
00:16:55,974 --> 00:16:59,814
conversation once you've shift
the conversation from short-term
286
00:16:59,814 --> 00:17:02,124
productivity to long-term sustainability.
287
00:17:02,369 --> 00:17:05,189
The four day work week becomes an
investment, paying a little bit of
288
00:17:05,189 --> 00:17:08,849
time now to keep this person in the
workforce and productive for longer.
289
00:17:08,999 --> 00:17:14,849
And we're talking about scarce talent
in fields like technology, but also in,
290
00:17:14,849 --> 00:17:16,709
in fields as far as medicine and law.
291
00:17:17,609 --> 00:17:22,739
The opportunity to reduce burnout
and attrition and absenteeism
292
00:17:23,039 --> 00:17:27,719
alone pays for any potential time
loss, which again, we can make up
293
00:17:27,719 --> 00:17:30,209
for by improving our processes.
294
00:17:30,254 --> 00:17:33,074
And then the last one that I'll
mention is also, Joe touched on this
295
00:17:33,074 --> 00:17:34,124
as well, I just wanna bring it up.
296
00:17:34,124 --> 00:17:39,734
That study after study is showing that
the average worker is afraid of ai.
297
00:17:39,794 --> 00:17:46,064
They are not just failing to embrace
it wholeheartedly with open arms.
298
00:17:46,094 --> 00:17:48,704
They're actively sabotaging
the organizations.
299
00:17:49,724 --> 00:17:54,044
Strategies for adopting AI because
there is genuine fear about what it
300
00:17:54,044 --> 00:17:58,544
means, the implications for their
job whether or not it'll exist,
301
00:17:58,574 --> 00:18:00,464
what the responsibilities will be.
302
00:18:00,974 --> 00:18:06,024
And this fear of ai a lot of
individuals are seeing it as
303
00:18:06,024 --> 00:18:08,544
an adversary, not as a partner.
304
00:18:08,574 --> 00:18:11,419
And in order to shift that
conversation, it takes.
305
00:18:12,594 --> 00:18:17,214
Organization sharing in the rewards
that AI promises, either through
306
00:18:17,514 --> 00:18:23,454
compensation or through the time that
they're gonna get back that is a
307
00:18:23,484 --> 00:18:26,844
powerful opportunity to change the
conversation and to change the perspective
308
00:18:26,844 --> 00:18:30,474
from AI resistance to embracing
ai, which could be the competitive
309
00:18:30,474 --> 00:18:34,359
differentiator for organizations of all
shapes and sizes in the coming years.
310
00:18:34,731 --> 00:18:36,651
In the book you talk about.
311
00:18:37,336 --> 00:18:42,316
An organization or an individual
advocating for work for a four day work
312
00:18:42,316 --> 00:18:46,516
week and how they can do that without,
I mean, let's be honest, PE-people,
313
00:18:46,696 --> 00:18:51,256
assuming they're trying to be lazy and
get an extra day off, but many people will
314
00:18:51,256 --> 00:18:53,716
actually see the huge benefits of this.
315
00:18:53,716 --> 00:18:57,646
And see, actually I'm way more effective
if I actually do a four day work week.
316
00:18:58,036 --> 00:19:01,426
So I'd love you to share that for
people who are of that mind, they
317
00:19:01,426 --> 00:19:04,456
wanna bring it to the organization
and then we'll move on to how to
318
00:19:04,456 --> 00:19:06,046
integrate it into an organization.
319
00:19:06,413 --> 00:19:09,653
The first thing that I always
recommend is, you know how
320
00:19:09,653 --> 00:19:10,493
you start this conversation.
321
00:19:11,393 --> 00:19:15,573
And I think as an individual employee,
you need to start this conversation from
322
00:19:15,573 --> 00:19:21,833
the perspective of viewing this as, , not
a concession, not just a giveaway or a
323
00:19:21,833 --> 00:19:25,703
perk as you described earlier, but as
a partnership with the organization to
324
00:19:25,703 --> 00:19:29,613
actually achieve, whether it's, , the
organization is struggling with.
325
00:19:29,993 --> 00:19:33,533
Retention or there's certain
productivity challenges or
326
00:19:33,533 --> 00:19:35,273
technological adoption challenges.
327
00:19:35,323 --> 00:19:39,313
Really framing this in the context that
you know, your leadership care about.
328
00:19:40,203 --> 00:19:43,843
And being prepared to embrace
the conditionality of this.
329
00:19:43,843 --> 00:19:46,623
That this is something that,
needs to work both for you as a
330
00:19:46,623 --> 00:19:48,483
worker, but also for the business.
331
00:19:49,113 --> 00:19:52,023
And therefore the fact that.
332
00:19:52,378 --> 00:19:55,708
If you're running a pilot or if
you're trying this out, that needs
333
00:19:55,708 --> 00:20:00,718
to be explicitly linked to, business
metrics and what success looks like
334
00:20:00,718 --> 00:20:02,188
from the organization's perspective.
335
00:20:02,188 --> 00:20:05,098
What's gonna make this
sustainable for the organization?
336
00:20:05,308 --> 00:20:08,778
I think, doing your preparation and
being prepared to have the conversation
337
00:20:08,778 --> 00:20:13,848
on those terms will immediately open
up a dialogue that feels much less
338
00:20:13,848 --> 00:20:18,178
adversarial and feels much more like, this
is something that can be a win-win vote
339
00:20:18,178 --> 00:20:20,338
for the business and for the workforce.
340
00:20:20,584 --> 00:20:27,154
This is very easily dismissed as, trying
to get more time off and management
341
00:20:27,154 --> 00:20:30,904
might not be totally open to that,
but when you frame it as a shared
342
00:20:30,904 --> 00:20:35,074
opportunity to achieve business objectives
more effectively than you can open that
343
00:20:35,074 --> 00:20:36,724
dialogue a little bit more effectively.
344
00:20:37,204 --> 00:20:40,564
We offer case studies and we
hope that they are helpful
345
00:20:40,564 --> 00:20:41,869
for organizations to find.
346
00:20:42,919 --> 00:20:46,969
Others that look like them and look
like the problems that they're trying
347
00:20:46,969 --> 00:20:51,409
to solve and offer some specific
examples and a lot of data to show
348
00:20:51,409 --> 00:20:55,549
how those challenges that the business
is facing can be helped through the
349
00:20:55,549 --> 00:20:56,959
adoption of a four day work week.
350
00:20:57,169 --> 00:21:03,079
We also strongly recommend not going for
the whole big enchilada right off the bat.
351
00:21:03,289 --> 00:21:06,749
If you say, Hey, move the whole
company to a, four day schedule and
352
00:21:06,749 --> 00:21:08,219
we'll figure out how to make it work.
353
00:21:08,729 --> 00:21:13,439
It's a non-starter if you say, maybe
in a few months from now, we can
354
00:21:13,439 --> 00:21:17,609
experiment with a half day Friday for
a small corner of the organization.
355
00:21:17,609 --> 00:21:21,239
And if they meet certain metrics
over a month long or two month
356
00:21:21,239 --> 00:21:25,199
long trial, we expand it out
to more units of the business.
357
00:21:25,199 --> 00:21:28,439
And once we've got a four and a
half day workweek moving smoothly,
358
00:21:28,619 --> 00:21:31,829
we can investigate whether there's
opportunities to further time
359
00:21:31,829 --> 00:21:33,329
without compromising outcomes.
360
00:21:33,539 --> 00:21:33,689
So.
361
00:21:34,559 --> 00:21:39,119
Starting small approaching the
conversation with your employer's
362
00:21:39,449 --> 00:21:43,529
organization's perspective in mind and
really identifying the challenges that
363
00:21:43,529 --> 00:21:47,429
they're trying to solve and framing
this as a solution to those challenges.
364
00:21:48,029 --> 00:21:51,839
And using some of the examples that we
provided to show how it is an effective.
365
00:21:52,064 --> 00:21:56,084
Solution for a lot of those
main challenges we discussed.
366
00:21:56,114 --> 00:22:00,194
Namely you know, AI and technological
adoption and productivity
367
00:22:00,764 --> 00:22:03,884
addressing burnout and absenteeism
and recruitment and retention.
368
00:22:04,034 --> 00:22:06,884
If your organization's struggling
with those, which most organizations
369
00:22:06,884 --> 00:22:10,214
are framing it as a solution
that's been proven more effective
370
00:22:10,214 --> 00:22:13,574
than the other solution, is the
way to start this conversation.
371
00:22:13,724 --> 00:22:18,814
And again, start small and, go
in with their perspective in mind.
372
00:22:19,679 --> 00:22:21,299
Let's move then to the organization.
373
00:22:21,299 --> 00:22:23,459
So the organization, Adoption.
374
00:22:23,999 --> 00:22:27,719
Of this, and then maybe we'll
finish with you as an individual
375
00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:30,929
and how you can integrate it for
yourself so you're actually being
376
00:22:30,929 --> 00:22:32,279
the most effective you could be.
377
00:22:33,148 --> 00:22:36,268
So I think one of the critical things
to recognize from an organizational
378
00:22:36,268 --> 00:22:40,948
standpoint is that this is not just
purely a personal productivity initiative.
379
00:22:41,308 --> 00:22:45,238
This is something that absolutely
can connect as an incentive to drive
380
00:22:45,448 --> 00:22:50,728
individuals to adopt new productivity
practices, new tools create more focus
381
00:22:50,728 --> 00:22:52,588
and less distraction in the workday.
382
00:22:52,948 --> 00:22:56,728
However, at its heart, this is very
much a collective endeavor, and I
383
00:22:56,728 --> 00:23:00,478
think if you compare the difference
between a four day work week.
384
00:23:00,888 --> 00:23:06,438
Pilot or implementation effort within an
organization to giving people an annual
385
00:23:06,438 --> 00:23:12,198
pay rise or offering people more personal
flexibility or access to remote options.
386
00:23:12,558 --> 00:23:15,618
Those are things that are very much
they're framed at the individual level.
387
00:23:15,888 --> 00:23:19,758
Whereas I think when a four day work week
works particularly well is when there's
388
00:23:19,758 --> 00:23:24,343
this collective effort, both within teams
and within the organization as a whole.
389
00:23:25,068 --> 00:23:29,898
To address things like, how we meet, how
we collaborate, how we make decisions.
390
00:23:29,898 --> 00:23:34,488
These are all things that no one
individual on their own can solve.
391
00:23:34,848 --> 00:23:37,998
But with this kind of shared
reward of a four day work week, it
392
00:23:37,998 --> 00:23:41,928
offers the opportunity to actually
think differently about how the
393
00:23:41,928 --> 00:23:43,123
business operates as a whole.
394
00:23:43,183 --> 00:23:45,588
So I think approaching this collectively.
395
00:23:45,923 --> 00:23:50,153
Attacking that low hanging fruit
that we know exists in terms of
396
00:23:50,303 --> 00:23:54,733
meeting bloat, distraction in
the workday, outdated processes.
397
00:23:55,213 --> 00:23:58,663
And really using this as a frame by
which people collectively go about
398
00:23:58,663 --> 00:24:00,043
solving some of those problems.
399
00:24:00,043 --> 00:24:04,333
We've talked about personal advocacy,
we've talked about the organization,
400
00:24:04,663 --> 00:24:09,103
but then your organization does
not want to do it and you can't
401
00:24:09,463 --> 00:24:13,093
hide from that organization,
but you are a believer in this.
402
00:24:13,303 --> 00:24:14,063
What can you do?
403
00:24:14,935 --> 00:24:18,925
It's extremely helpful when
this is a shared effort.
404
00:24:18,955 --> 00:24:21,985
It becomes so much easier to
find efficiencies to improve.
405
00:24:22,045 --> 00:24:26,485
Processes when the organization
is really invested in this idea.
406
00:24:26,485 --> 00:24:32,485
However, there's a lot of stuff that as
strategies and advice that we offer for
407
00:24:32,485 --> 00:24:36,655
the individual who's just looking to find
more hours in their day, and this might be
408
00:24:36,655 --> 00:24:39,755
for the folks who are hopeful that a four
day work week might be in their future.
409
00:24:40,535 --> 00:24:43,775
might be for folks that are working a
few too many Saturdays and a few too
410
00:24:43,775 --> 00:24:49,205
many evenings and are trying to get back
to a more manageable grasp on work.
411
00:24:49,475 --> 00:24:53,855
And it starts with auditing how they
spend their time at work and really
412
00:24:53,855 --> 00:24:57,215
being honest with themselves and
maybe even putting some pen to paper
413
00:24:57,215 --> 00:24:59,585
and tracking how that time is spent.
414
00:25:00,125 --> 00:25:02,285
Looking for rooms for efficiency.
415
00:25:02,435 --> 00:25:05,615
We talk about the importance
of having a very clear.
416
00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:11,130
To-do list and a clear priority list, and
giving each hour of the day a mission.
417
00:25:11,130 --> 00:25:14,880
So starting the day with an understanding
of what is absolutely critical, what
418
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,080
success will be for me today, and
then working within that framework
419
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,210
to really ensure that the top.
420
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,810
Priorities are addressed first because
often, you know, we start our day
421
00:25:25,810 --> 00:25:28,510
with an hour of emailing and then
have a two hour meeting, and then
422
00:25:28,510 --> 00:25:31,300
it's, you know, lunchtime before we've
actually done any of the meaningful
423
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:36,820
work that is really gonna up
that time that we're looking for.
424
00:25:37,870 --> 00:25:39,430
We also talk about some.
425
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,820
Seemingly obvious opportunities
to increase productivity that
426
00:25:44,820 --> 00:25:47,460
maybe are worthy of a reminder.
427
00:25:48,150 --> 00:25:50,820
For example, finding ways
to minimize distractions.
428
00:25:51,490 --> 00:25:53,530
making peace with
imperfection is a big one.
429
00:25:53,530 --> 00:25:56,860
I think too often folks get hung
up on trying to make things a
430
00:25:56,860 --> 00:25:58,945
hundred percent when 80% will do.
431
00:25:59,950 --> 00:26:04,420
As we describe in the book giving
gold level effort to bronze level
432
00:26:04,420 --> 00:26:06,385
priorities there, there's a lot of.
433
00:26:07,070 --> 00:26:10,520
Things that happen within the
day that aren't as necessary.
434
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:15,230
And all of those little additions to our
schedule end up taking big bites out of
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00:26:15,230 --> 00:26:19,220
time that could be better spent elsewhere,
either professionally or personally.
436
00:26:19,220 --> 00:26:23,300
And then finally, there's a lot of
science and research about how to make.
437
00:26:23,505 --> 00:26:27,105
The most out of your day based
on when our brains are at
438
00:26:27,105 --> 00:26:28,875
their best for certain tasks.
439
00:26:29,325 --> 00:26:34,545
Our circadian rhythms really dictate when
is the best time of the day to do certain
440
00:26:34,545 --> 00:26:39,645
things, when we're gonna be most creative,
most analytical, and figuring out, doing
441
00:26:39,645 --> 00:26:43,425
a little bit of work on the forefront
to understand how your brain works best,
442
00:26:43,455 --> 00:26:47,925
what those fluctuations are, and trying
to optimize your schedule accordingly to
443
00:26:47,925 --> 00:26:49,665
the best that you can do as an individual.
444
00:26:50,285 --> 00:26:53,825
Are just some of the ways in which you
can really get more out of the hours you
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00:26:53,825 --> 00:26:59,915
work and hopefully find some of these
efficiencies useful in getting your time
446
00:26:59,915 --> 00:27:03,185
back, even if your organization hasn't
agreed to move to a four day work week.
447
00:27:03,845 --> 00:27:10,475
It's a brilliant book and it's out
on January 13th, 2026 in the uk.
448
00:27:10,475 --> 00:27:13,625
I don't know whether that's the case
in the US but certainly in the uk.
449
00:27:14,055 --> 00:27:17,985
Guys, for people who wanna find you,
where's the best place to find you?
450
00:27:17,985 --> 00:27:22,535
I know Jared, you write for a lot
of top organizations, but where can
451
00:27:22,535 --> 00:27:24,185
people find out you to reach out?
452
00:27:24,185 --> 00:27:25,315
And Joe then will come to you as well.
453
00:27:27,450 --> 00:27:30,970
The best place to find both
of us is domoreinfour.com.
454
00:27:31,290 --> 00:27:34,470
We got a website for the book
where you can find more information
455
00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:36,060
and reach out to us individually.
456
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,470
I also have my website,
jaredLindzon.com where I post all of my.
457
00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:45,360
Research and articles about the four day
work week and all things future of work.
458
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,945
And Joe, where's the best
place for people to find you?
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00:27:50,220 --> 00:27:50,955
Our website.
460
00:27:50,955 --> 00:27:52,305
I run a future of work.
461
00:27:52,305 --> 00:27:55,905
Consulting advising and research
firm called Worktime Revolution.
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00:27:55,905 --> 00:27:58,155
You can find us on
worktime revolution.com.
463
00:27:58,155 --> 00:28:02,025
You can also find me and Worktime
Revolution on LinkedIn, and I have a
464
00:28:02,025 --> 00:28:03,915
substack that people can subscribe to.
465
00:28:04,310 --> 00:28:07,700
And I will link to all those
different locations as well.
466
00:28:08,180 --> 00:28:09,350
Authors of do more.
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00:28:09,350 --> 00:28:11,930
in four, why it's time
for a shorter work week.
468
00:28:11,930 --> 00:28:15,080
Joe O'Connor and Jared Lindzon,
thank you for joining us.
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00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:15,605
Thank you for having us.
470
00:28:15,610 --> 00:28:15,981
for having us.
471
00:28:15,981 --> 00:28:16,401
Thanks.
472
00:28:17,276 --> 00:28:19,466
Thanks for joining us on Inside Learning.
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00:28:19,526 --> 00:28:23,156
Inside Learning is brought to you by the
Learnovate Centre in Trinity College.
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00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:27,266
Dublin Learnovate is funded by
Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland.
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00:28:27,356 --> 00:28:31,796
Visit learnovate Centre.org to find out
more about our research on the science
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00:28:31,796 --> 00:28:33,356
of learning and the future of work.
