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Welcome to IB Unplugged,
a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators,
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that tackles your submitted questions
and challenges by connecting you with
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experts and peers who share their ideas
and stories from real classrooms.
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Hi everybody, and welcome to this week's
episode of IB Unplugged.
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We really hope you enjoyed
our previous episode with John Hattie.
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And so we decided to do something
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a little bit different
than what we've done before.
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And we wanted to take some of the key
principles and the ideas that we spoke
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about in Hattie's episode,
and then talk about the way in which
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these ideas are actually implemented
in Kognity’s platform itself.
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So today we're talking with Doctor Melanie
Snow, who's part of the product team,
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and we're going to be looking into
how do we take the actual pedagogy,
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the actual research
and put it into reality.
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How do we make visible learning
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actually true in the actual platform
that you see with Kognity itself.
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Exactly.
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I think this episode made a lot of sense
for me.
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One, because when I first
joined Kognity a long time ago,
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that was basically required
reading when everyone first joined was
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like, you better know who John Hattie is
if you're going to work in education.
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And, so it really has been
a fundamental part
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of the way
that the product's been designed,
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the way we talk about education
within our company.
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And then I figured Melanie would be
one of the best people to talk to,
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because not only is her job right now
as a learning experience designer
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really deeply rooted in making these kind
of pedagogical decisions
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on how the products design.
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But also this is really where
her background comes in.
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Melanie was originally a high school
science teacher in the United States.
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She's based in Chicago, but then she went
and did her PhD, learning
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about motivation and kind of learning
design and all of these things.
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And now that's really at the heart
of what she's doing at Kognity.
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So great fit hearing about her background,
her experiences, and really
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what her intentionality is in the way
that she helps build Kognity’s product.
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We're so glad you're here.
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Let's talk about how we take this theory
into practice with Doctor Melanie Snow.
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Hi, Melanie, welcome to
IB Unplugged.
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Thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for having me.
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Yeah. Of course.
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So what we want to get started with
is usually when we have a teacher
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or a IB coordinator
or something like that,
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we don't actually need to explain
what their job is.
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However, your job is a learning experience
designer, and I think there are probably
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quite a few people who are listening
that don't really know what that means.
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Could you describe a little bit
about what your role is
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and what it looks like in your day to day?
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Sure.
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So what I do
as a learning experience designer is that,
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I help design, develop and implement,
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different learning experiences
on our Kognity platform.
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And, that can look like, a lesson design
for a student
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that can also look like teacher
support materials for teachers.
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And, our high school science side,
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committees platform.
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Sorry.
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We design teacher support tools like,
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slide decks, worksheets,
different performance
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tasks and things like that
for students to do in the classroom.
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I also participate in a lot of discussions
around the user interface design,
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in terms of what does supporting
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learning look like
on a digital platform.
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Nice one.
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So obviously,
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Melanie, we want to talk a little bit
about like how you apply visible learning
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or going from that research to reality
and how you kind of get that in
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into Kognity’s platform.
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And I know you've just, been able
to see that episode with John Hattie
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and kind of learn about that discussion
and that sort of thing.
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I know you're applying
a lot of those principles
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in the actual design of what you do
within Kognity’s platform anyway.
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But thinking back on that conversation
from John Hattie,
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what kind of resonated with you
the most as, yeah, I'm all about that.
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What kind of stuck
with you? I will say that,
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Hattie talked about this idea of,
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there's just too much stuff to learn.
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And I think traditionally in classrooms,
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one of the things that we've tried to do
is focus on like, if students are going
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to learn chemistry, for example,
we've got to get them all of this stuff.
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And, in terms of moving away from that,
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I know, here in the US, we've adopted
next generation science standards
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and that has sort of retold what is
important in the classroom to learn.
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And it really takes away
sort of that, that breadth and going
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more into depth, which was something
that, Hattie was talking about.
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And, you know, we've
we found that students
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really love to dig deep into an idea
rather than just learn all the ideas.
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And so that's something
that really resonated with me,
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was when Hattie was talking about that,
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what do you remember
the most about your classroom experiences?
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And it is those moments
where you really just kind of like,
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went off the rails and you, like,
dug into a topic rather than like, oh,
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I learned every single thing
there is to know about elements.
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And I think also something else
that resonated with me
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was that connected to this idea
of like going deep in the subject
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is the idea that we are excellent at,
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training the curiosity out of students.
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I taught high school science,
and by the time I got kids,
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in their junior year of high school
or senior year of high school,
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the curiosity was pretty
much like non-existent in kids.
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They were ready to know
what were the right answers.
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What did I need to know for the test?
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And, it was really hard to get them
engaged in that curiosity again.
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And, you know, having a daughter,
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I always knew the curiosity was somewhere
in there, but having a daughter,
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young daughter, I realized that that's
something that was inherent to kids.
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Is that, the curiosity is there. And,
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what do
we do between these young ages and,
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almost young adulthood that we,
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sort of, like, train them
not to be curious anymore.
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Yeah.
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I was talking
about exactly that thing today
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with one of my colleagues about, like,
what kind of happens in these years
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that suddenly this, like, passion and that
spark for learning kind of decreases.
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I think there's lots of factors.
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We can't point to one thing,
but I would agree with you.
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You know, it's almost like in that DP
classroom, you're kind of trying to
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reignite or generate it again and be like,
don't worry about the answers per se.
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Like, let's develop your curiosity again.
Let's get you engaged.
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And the thing that's cool about this
subject, right?
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Yeah.
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So another thing that obviously comes up
with pretty much everything
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that Hattie releases
is the knowing your impact.
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And in your role at Kognity, what does
that look like in practice for you?
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I think what it looks like
in practice to me is that,
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Kognity is full
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of great people
that are experts at their jobs,
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engineers, UX designers,
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people who deliver professional
development.
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She hasn't mentioned my job.
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I was noticing,
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but I wasn't going to say anything
about it.
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Pretty much everyone except for..
No.
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No, everybody.
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Everybody.
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Especially Courtney.
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I saved her for last.
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You're saving best for last.
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See you ruined it, Court.
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Come on.
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But, not everybody has,
classroom experience
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or has, education experience
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other than the education
that they experienced,
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growing up and, that education
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back then, because we're all older,
we're not all
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sitting in a classroom right now
unless we're doing a PhD.
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That experience
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has looked very different over time.
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Most of us sat in classrooms where we sat,
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in rows,
and our teacher talked about us all day.
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And, then we were supposed to absorb
that information and then take a test.
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And learning has changed a lot.
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And so has teaching.
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And so I think part of the impact
I get to make at my job,
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is sort of behind the scenes of sharing
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what is good teaching and learning
look like in the classroom.
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And, how do we pay attention to that
when we're thinking
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about the elements
that we design for Kognity.
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And then also I participate
in designing that stuff as well.
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And, so then I get to take those good
teaching and learning practices
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and infuse them into the work
that I do for Kognity.
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One thing I can think of specifically were
when we made slide decks for teachers,
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people were like, yeah,
we just take the information
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and we put it on the slide.
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Ta da!
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And I was like, actually,
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there are a lot of great things
we could build into a slide deck.
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We could build, facilitation notes
that tell teachers, you know,
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we're going to have a discussion here,
some great discussion prompts or,
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I know you're sitting in a classroom
full of diverse learners.
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Here are six different strategies
you can use to address
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like six different,
diverse learning needs.
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We know that time is precious.
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So here's, ballpark of the pacing
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that it's going to take to do this
part of this lesson.
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So therefore you can decide,
how you're going to adjust
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to meet the needs
of your classroom.
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Building in simple things like,
queuing icons,
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just a little thing at the top of the
slide that communicates to the student.
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We're about to participate
in the whole class
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discussion,
or we're about to do a think pair share.
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And they're little things,
but they really make
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a huge impact in the classroom
in terms of, supporting the learners.
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I love that because it's absolutely true.
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And as, as somebody who uses the platform
as well, you notice those things
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and it helps you be more intentional.
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So when it comes to
I guess, yeah, knowing your impact,
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it's that classic quote of
of being a teacher, right?
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You you kind of impact eternity.
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You don't really know where your influence
stops.
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And I would say the same thing.
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And as education evolves,
it is it's those little things.
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It's those small tweaks and small changes
that suddenly make it a bit better.
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Increment by increment, you know?
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So I guess. Yeah.
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Just grateful for that. Thanks.
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You’re welcome.
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Is there maybe like a specific
learning principle or something
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that you kind of always keep in your head
when you're designing this stuff?
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When you're trying
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to apply that visible learning stuff
in, in your resource development?
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Yeah. I think,
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one thing that I like
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to keep in mind is that,
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learning is actually very social.
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A lot of people think, learning
can be individual,
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and there are some aspects
that can be individual, but,
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learning inherently
is social because it comes from
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you learn about something and then
you discuss it with another person.
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And then they challenge you on
how you're thinking about that idea.
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Or maybe they add insight to something
that you're thinking about or experience.
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And you have this back and forth and,
that's really
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where the learning happens
is in this like, social dynamic.
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And so something I try to consider
when designing things is
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how are we attending
to that social aspect of learning,
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especially when we're talking about
learning happening on a digital platform.
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Where are the places that you're giving
students opportunity to both,
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absorb information or
collect evidence and observations.
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But then,
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where do they go with that?
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Yeah.
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So do we provide them opportunities
to have a discussion
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or to share out that learning
in some way that can,
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you know, pay
attention to that, social aspect.
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It's super refreshing to hear that,
because I know a lot of people
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that would criticize the digital
sort of learning
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or that sort of space would say it's
because it makes them isolated.
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But to know that as an experience is,
you know, as a designer
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of that content, you're thinking of
how do we make this more social,
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is, yeah, that's great to hear,
especially as an educator.
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As our last warm up question,
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I want to ask you, you mentioned
you are a high school science teacher.
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Then you went in,
you did your PhD, now you're here,
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stuck with us.
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What drew you to learning design
and the space?
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I would say,
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it was sort of the
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thing that drew me out of
the classroom is that,
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as a classroom teacher, I impacted
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150 students a year,
and that was my boundary.
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And, I really enjoyed, teaching.
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And I really enjoyed learning
about students, specifically,
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what motivates students
to keep engaging with learning.
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And so when I left the classroom
and stepped into a PhD,
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my thought
was, I'm going to work with teachers,
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because if I can work with teachers
and sort of,
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infuse them with, like, what good teaching
looks like and how to be really
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supportive of students, then they can each
go impact 150 kids a year.
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And that's going to broaden,
like how good teaching
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practices
are infused in the education community.
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But then I also thought,
but that only works
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if teachers have great curriculum
to work with.
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And so where
could I make that kind of impact?
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And so that's
what kind of drew me to Kognity
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is that I,
I could help design learning experiences
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and also support teachers
at the same time.
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So then I could make sure
that while teachers are picking up,
256
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great teaching practices,
they also have great curriculum to work
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with to
enact those teaching practices.
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All right. Well, let's
get into kind of the main parts here.
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We're talking about
how we go from research into reality.
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And of course,
261
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kind of reflecting on John
Hattie's episode
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and what he was talking there
about visible learning.
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And I know,
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you know, any educator out there
has probably done a little bit of work
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with visible learning,
and they're aware of those things.
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But let's talk about how we kind of take
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that research, put it into practice,
and expand on what you talked about here.
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I guess, first off, when you think of,
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the work that Hattie has done
and some of the things that we spoke
270
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about in the episode,
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was there anything that really challenged
or maybe shifted your thinking?
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I don't know if it's necessarily
challenged
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my thinking or shifted my thinking,
but it was almost like
274
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a reminder of something
that I, I tend to forget about.
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And I it was
when Hattie was talking about, reflection.
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He was talking about
we tell kids to reflect, reflect, reflect.
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And we know from research,
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reflection is really important
for like shifting student thinking,
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especially when that reflection involves,
280
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like, thinking about progress
or thinking about, evidence
281
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and connecting that to current thinking
and, shifting thinking.
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But we don't actually teach students
how to reflect.
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We just embed
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opportunities for reflection,
but we don't think about
285
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they might
actually not know how to reflect.
286
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So I think that's something that,
287
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is something I have known,
288
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but it was like a good reminder
for me that
289
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all of these strategies, the ones that
how he talks about invisible learning or
290
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any of the strategies from research
in general, are good strategies.
291
00:16:08,541 --> 00:16:11,625
But we never take that
step backwards to say,
292
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do my students actually
know how to do that?
293
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Discussion is another big one
294
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where we know that
discussion has a high impact
295
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for many reasons.
296
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One of the ones I just mentioned,
which was that it's social, right?
297
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When you have classroom discussions
298
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or small group discussions,
we bring in that social aspect.
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But do we teach kids
how to have discussions?
300
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And so in order for something
to be impactful,
301
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,250
we have to take a
step backwards and say, okay,
302
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I want my
303
00:16:42,833 --> 00:16:45,833
students to participate in discussion,
but do they know how?
304
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And and putting together
305
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the resources that support students
and developing those skills
306
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so that they can do the high impact
strategies in the classroom?
307
00:16:56,333 --> 00:16:58,375
And I think it's the same
for teachers, too,
308
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,000
as we want teachers to have all these
great teaching practices.
309
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,583
But do we spend time teaching teachers
how to build that practice?
310
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I think that was like a good reminder
for me
311
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that it takes more than just infusing
the practice or the strategy.
312
00:17:16,791 --> 00:17:19,250
We also have to think about
how do we support the development
313
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of that for teachers and students.
314
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,916
Yeah. No, I, I completely agree.
315
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I think that really resonates
316
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with a lot of the professional learning
that we've done
317
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at Kognity, where we host
these conferences and things like that.
318
00:17:30,875 --> 00:17:35,625
And it's like nobody ever goes
to a professional development being like,
319
00:17:35,625 --> 00:17:39,625
you know, I just really want to learn
more about these details in chemistry.
320
00:17:39,625 --> 00:17:41,666
Like, that's not it.
321
00:17:41,666 --> 00:17:45,000
That's the part you can kind of
figure out on your own time.
322
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,708
And it is this like,
I know I want my kids to be
323
00:17:50,750 --> 00:17:52,875
having discussions, but
324
00:17:52,875 --> 00:17:56,291
how do I get them to have discussions
that are actually constructive
325
00:17:56,291 --> 00:17:59,125
and like being able
to build these frameworks for them?
326
00:17:59,125 --> 00:18:01,916
I agree that that's that's
definitely important.
327
00:18:01,916 --> 00:18:04,791
What do you think that educators are
328
00:18:04,791 --> 00:18:09,500
misunderstanding most often
about what works best and learning like?
329
00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:12,500
Is there anything that you see time
and time again where it's like
330
00:18:13,708 --> 00:18:17,375
they are trying to
or think that they're doing,
331
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one of these kind of learning,
high impact, strategies.
332
00:18:21,875 --> 00:18:24,375
But then actually, it's not.
333
00:18:24,375 --> 00:18:26,458
I think I have two thoughts on this.
334
00:18:26,458 --> 00:18:28,791
One of them Hattie brought up,
which is,
335
00:18:29,583 --> 00:18:31,083
the idea of..
336
00:18:31,250 --> 00:18:34,583
You don’t just walk into the classroom
and implement strategies.
337
00:18:34,916 --> 00:18:38,916
You first have to identify the problem
and then find the right strategies
338
00:18:38,916 --> 00:18:39,958
to solve the problem.
339
00:18:39,958 --> 00:18:43,291
I think that's a big one
where you can't go through
340
00:18:43,291 --> 00:18:46,291
a checklist and say, high impact,
high impact, high impact.
341
00:18:46,333 --> 00:18:49,416
I'm going to do these things
and magically transform my classroom.
342
00:18:49,916 --> 00:18:54,416
I think you really have to think about
what's my classroom environment,
343
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what's the learning environment,
what are my students needs
344
00:18:58,166 --> 00:19:00,666
and then pick the strategies
that fit with that
345
00:19:00,666 --> 00:19:02,666
and in solving that problem.
346
00:19:03,166 --> 00:19:05,458
I think, too, is the idea that,
347
00:19:06,208 --> 00:19:09,958
sometimes in the classroom,
we think we're enacting strategies,
348
00:19:09,958 --> 00:19:13,041
but we're actually not doing anything
different in the classroom.
349
00:19:15,291 --> 00:19:17,791
I always come back to discussion
because this was
350
00:19:17,791 --> 00:19:21,750
one of my research topics
for my PhD, but,
351
00:19:23,125 --> 00:19:26,458
you know, when discussion came on
the scene as like, this is really big,
352
00:19:26,708 --> 00:19:30,916
a big strategy for shifting and learning,
and we got to have more discussions
353
00:19:30,916 --> 00:19:32,208
in the classroom.
354
00:19:32,208 --> 00:19:34,375
A lot of teachers are like,
yeah, I'm doing that.
355
00:19:34,375 --> 00:19:37,375
But the discussion
look like one way questions
356
00:19:37,375 --> 00:19:40,916
from teacher to student and then students
answering those questions.
357
00:19:41,125 --> 00:19:43,583
And they were like, see,
I'm having a discussion.
358
00:19:43,583 --> 00:19:46,083
But actually discussions are
back and forth.
359
00:19:46,083 --> 00:19:46,541
Right?
360
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,791
It's a partnership
where both people get to ask questions
361
00:19:50,791 --> 00:19:53,791
and both people get to contribute answers.
362
00:19:54,291 --> 00:19:58,333
And that's what really is the richness
of a classroom discussion.
363
00:19:59,333 --> 00:20:00,458
And so I think,
364
00:20:01,333 --> 00:20:04,500
enacting strategies,
but not really understanding
365
00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:06,083
how the strategy is different
366
00:20:06,083 --> 00:20:09,833
than what you're currently doing in
the classroom is one of the areas that
367
00:20:10,916 --> 00:20:13,083
are necessary for
368
00:20:13,083 --> 00:20:16,208
teachers to grow and enact
these high impact strategies.
369
00:20:16,916 --> 00:20:20,541
So one of the things I love about
what you just said is that I, I highly
370
00:20:20,708 --> 00:20:21,625
agree with it.
371
00:20:21,625 --> 00:20:24,625
There's so often that you have teachers
who just feel like I'm
372
00:20:24,625 --> 00:20:28,375
doing the same thing, and this is just
a new name for what I already do,
373
00:20:28,375 --> 00:20:32,458
and it kind of ignores
the evolution of education and ignores
374
00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:34,875
what we can actually do
to make those small increments,
375
00:20:34,875 --> 00:20:37,375
to make it a lot better
when we're closed off to it.
376
00:20:37,375 --> 00:20:40,791
And we don't think about
learning ourselves as a as an educator,
377
00:20:40,791 --> 00:20:43,041
I can learn about this
and I can get better at it as well.
378
00:20:43,041 --> 00:20:45,833
And I can, you know, make an impact there.
379
00:20:45,833 --> 00:20:48,416
I know, as we kind of get into that
second part here, like
380
00:20:48,416 --> 00:20:51,416
designing for impact, visible learning,
that sort of thing.
381
00:20:51,916 --> 00:20:53,750
As you're
designing this stuff for Kognity,
382
00:20:53,750 --> 00:20:56,458
how do you ensure that the content isn't
just engaging?
383
00:20:56,458 --> 00:20:59,000
It's not just some sort of flashy gimmick
that a teachers like,
384
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,250
yeah, but that's just that's
just this tech tool.
385
00:21:01,250 --> 00:21:02,875
I could do the same thing in a book.
386
00:21:02,875 --> 00:21:06,833
How do you ensure it's not just engaging
but also actually effective?
387
00:21:07,791 --> 00:21:10,916
So one of the things we do is
before we dive into the content,
388
00:21:10,916 --> 00:21:13,333
we think about the instructional model,
389
00:21:13,333 --> 00:21:15,791
and the instructional model,
like, pulls together
390
00:21:15,791 --> 00:21:19,916
the pieces that are necessary
to support, students in good learning.
391
00:21:20,375 --> 00:21:23,666
So, on the high school science side,
one of the things we do
392
00:21:23,666 --> 00:21:27,666
is we think about the five model
of instruction, where
393
00:21:27,666 --> 00:21:32,000
we put together components of engagement,
explaining, elaboration.
394
00:21:33,875 --> 00:21:34,750
And we
395
00:21:34,750 --> 00:21:37,750
think about what is the right fit
for the content there.
396
00:21:37,791 --> 00:21:41,250
But I think also, part of designing
for that effective
397
00:21:41,250 --> 00:21:45,416
learning that goes beyond engagement,
because engagement is only one aspect,
398
00:21:45,791 --> 00:21:48,958
is to think about the experiences.
399
00:21:48,958 --> 00:21:54,666
And how can we create experiences
that are engaging but also challenging.
400
00:21:55,250 --> 00:21:59,958
And, one thing we want to consider is
401
00:21:59,958 --> 00:22:04,041
how do we put students into a place of,
productive struggle?
402
00:22:04,583 --> 00:22:08,958
I'm not sure if everybody is familiar
with that term, but it's the idea that,
403
00:22:09,416 --> 00:22:10,208
I'm going to present you
404
00:22:10,208 --> 00:22:13,208
with something that's engaging,
but you don't quite understand yet.
405
00:22:13,583 --> 00:22:17,166
And, it's so challenging that
406
00:22:17,541 --> 00:22:21,416
I'm not able to, like, go to the internet
and, like, look up an answer real quick.
407
00:22:21,750 --> 00:22:26,083
I have to do some work
to figure out the pieces of,
408
00:22:28,250 --> 00:22:28,916
of what I
409
00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:31,916
need to know in order
to understand this thing.
410
00:22:32,125 --> 00:22:34,875
And that's something that
moves them out
411
00:22:34,875 --> 00:22:37,875
of that engagement space
and into the learning space.
412
00:22:37,916 --> 00:22:41,458
So now there are a few things
I need to know in order to understand,
413
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,541
this concept or this engaging idea
that you've presented me.
414
00:22:46,916 --> 00:22:51,958
And with that productive struggle comes
element of reflection,
415
00:22:51,958 --> 00:22:56,250
which we've talked about before,
being great for students, but reflection
416
00:22:56,250 --> 00:22:59,541
in a way that is going to shift
their thinking from like point
417
00:22:59,541 --> 00:23:01,291
A to point B. So,
418
00:23:02,583 --> 00:23:05,041
initially when you see something,
you always have
419
00:23:05,041 --> 00:23:08,041
like an idea of how to explain it.
420
00:23:08,833 --> 00:23:12,541
But is your explanation
really the right explanation?
421
00:23:12,833 --> 00:23:16,125
And so through collecting evidence
and observations
422
00:23:16,583 --> 00:23:20,666
and doing this sort of reflective piece,
a supportive reflection for students,
423
00:23:20,666 --> 00:23:24,875
we get to take in that information
and then apply it back to our,
424
00:23:26,291 --> 00:23:28,750
engaging scenario and think, oh,
425
00:23:28,750 --> 00:23:31,833
well, I had this initial idea,
but now I've collected some evidence,
426
00:23:32,458 --> 00:23:36,750
I have done some observations, and
I don't think my explanation quite fits.
427
00:23:37,875 --> 00:23:39,000
What do I think now?
428
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,375
How can I update my thinking
through reflection? And through that,
429
00:23:44,125 --> 00:23:47,875
what other questions do I have
now that now need to be explored?
430
00:23:48,458 --> 00:23:51,500
So keeping them in that sort of loop of,
431
00:23:53,041 --> 00:23:54,500
I'm interested.
432
00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:55,916
I need to know more.
433
00:23:55,916 --> 00:23:59,083
I found out some things,
but it doesn't quite answer my questions.
434
00:23:59,458 --> 00:24:00,958
Let's get back into it.
435
00:24:00,958 --> 00:24:03,750
And I think that's part of, designing
436
00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:07,125
the instruction that moves
beyond engagement for the students.
437
00:24:07,166 --> 00:24:10,375
The first time that I came across the idea
of, like, the productive struggle
438
00:24:10,375 --> 00:24:13,375
was when I, I remember,
439
00:24:13,375 --> 00:24:16,500
you know, when edtech tools
were kind of first coming out.
440
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:19,583
There was so much like,
there's so much like gimmicky, gimmicky.
441
00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:21,708
This is edutainment.
442
00:24:21,708 --> 00:24:23,708
That was such a big word.
443
00:24:23,708 --> 00:24:25,166
That was coming across a lot.
444
00:24:25,166 --> 00:24:29,458
And it was like, well,
how do we make sure that's not us?
445
00:24:29,458 --> 00:24:36,750
It's like, how do you balance
being engaging but not just entertaining?
446
00:24:36,750 --> 00:24:39,875
And I think that that's a lot
of the really hard work that you guys
447
00:24:39,875 --> 00:24:45,125
have been doing behind the scenes of like,
yeah, we have to pick topics
448
00:24:45,125 --> 00:24:48,958
that are going to get
that initial buy in from students,
449
00:24:48,958 --> 00:24:52,041
but if they don't do anything with it
450
00:24:52,041 --> 00:24:57,750
and they don't think hard about it
and have that struggle like you said,
451
00:24:57,750 --> 00:25:02,166
then it is just edutainment or whatever,
and then there's not
452
00:25:02,166 --> 00:25:03,958
actual learning happening.
453
00:25:03,958 --> 00:25:06,291
So no, I think it's so important.
454
00:25:06,291 --> 00:25:10,166
I think it's also like,
how do we think about engagement?
455
00:25:10,166 --> 00:25:15,458
And if you don't dig deep
into a lot of research literature,
456
00:25:15,875 --> 00:25:19,625
we think of engagement
as like showing up, like doing
457
00:25:19,625 --> 00:25:23,750
those clicks, being present
in a classroom, completing a task.
458
00:25:24,083 --> 00:25:28,083
And there's actually two other modes
of engagement that aren't talked
459
00:25:28,083 --> 00:25:32,000
about as much
in education, outside of research,
460
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,750
which is the cognitive engagement
and the emotional engagement. So,
461
00:25:38,166 --> 00:25:38,750
there's an
462
00:25:38,750 --> 00:25:41,833
there's a need for that
behavioral engagement, like,
463
00:25:41,833 --> 00:25:43,916
you got to have kids
show up to the classroom
464
00:25:43,916 --> 00:25:47,750
or the platform and do those clicks,
but it's how do you connect
465
00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:51,083
to these other two types of engagement
that are important as well.
466
00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:54,833
And that's what creating
like challenging scenarios or,
467
00:25:55,541 --> 00:25:59,583
opportunities to like, really, struggle
with how you understand
468
00:25:59,583 --> 00:26:02,583
our concept that tap into these other two,
469
00:26:02,666 --> 00:26:05,666
types of engagement,
the cognitive and the emotional.
470
00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:06,791
I love it.
471
00:26:06,791 --> 00:26:08,541
As you were talking there,
I had this image
472
00:26:08,541 --> 00:26:11,166
in my head of as a teacher,
you kind of constantly,
473
00:26:11,166 --> 00:26:13,750
for lack of a better term,
mining for like, where's the thing
474
00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:16,791
that's going to get the student
all the way into that?
475
00:26:16,791 --> 00:26:18,291
And I love that productive struggle,
476
00:26:18,291 --> 00:26:20,750
because then I had this image of like,
that's the golden nugget.
477
00:26:20,750 --> 00:26:22,875
That's the thing that like, I want that.
478
00:26:22,875 --> 00:26:24,583
And, you know
479
00:26:24,583 --> 00:26:28,375
when it happens as an educator, it's
that hum in the room that suddenly happens
480
00:26:28,375 --> 00:26:31,375
when the students
are really engaged in the task
481
00:26:31,375 --> 00:26:35,291
that has the right level of challenge,
the right sort of level of stress,
482
00:26:35,500 --> 00:26:39,541
you know, or anxiety like that,
that sort of optimum zone of like,
483
00:26:39,541 --> 00:26:42,458
this is tough, but it's interesting
and I want to figure it out.
484
00:26:42,458 --> 00:26:44,000
And I think about things differently
485
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,000
than I did just before, like everything
you were just saying there.
486
00:26:47,125 --> 00:26:49,791
That's all the metacognitive principles
that we're hoping for.
487
00:26:49,791 --> 00:26:54,166
That's all the like deep learning stuff
that we're hoping for within our classes.
488
00:26:54,166 --> 00:26:56,458
And that's the stuff
that's really meaningful, that
489
00:26:56,458 --> 00:27:00,250
when we talk about the deployment program,
it's like we want it to be meaningful.
490
00:27:00,250 --> 00:27:02,666
We want it to be enjoyable,
we want it to be achievable.
491
00:27:02,666 --> 00:27:05,791
And those things happen
when you have those
492
00:27:06,291 --> 00:27:08,250
those productive struggles
that you're talking about.
493
00:27:08,250 --> 00:27:12,208
So, I just love that that's,
that that's a goal
494
00:27:12,583 --> 00:27:16,708
that that's something that you're trying
to make evident for teachers so that,
495
00:27:17,041 --> 00:27:20,041
you know, as we search and of course,
everything's going to be context specific.
496
00:27:20,291 --> 00:27:23,541
But as we look through those things
you're saying, like, here's
497
00:27:23,875 --> 00:27:27,125
here's one, here's a golden nugget,
go on, play with that a little bit.
498
00:27:27,416 --> 00:27:28,791
I just I think that's awesome.
499
00:27:28,791 --> 00:27:29,041
Yeah.
500
00:27:29,041 --> 00:27:33,750
And I think, one of the ways
I think that shows up in IB specifically
501
00:27:33,750 --> 00:27:37,875
is, sort of those community projects
that students tackle
502
00:27:38,291 --> 00:27:42,708
because they learn a lot of things,
but then they have a real world problem
503
00:27:42,708 --> 00:27:46,666
that they're going to struggle with
and try to apply that knowledge to.
504
00:27:46,666 --> 00:27:49,708
And it's not going to be,
like one size fits all.
505
00:27:50,291 --> 00:27:53,666
Those problems are going to be unique,
and the students are really going
506
00:27:53,666 --> 00:27:57,500
to have to dive into
that to sort of figure out,
507
00:27:58,625 --> 00:28:00,125
as I observe and understand
508
00:28:00,125 --> 00:28:04,041
this problem more,
how how my knowledge fits with that.
509
00:28:04,041 --> 00:28:06,125
And what are the other pieces of evidence
510
00:28:06,125 --> 00:28:09,250
I need to collect in order to
understand that problem and,
511
00:28:09,583 --> 00:28:13,250
and help get to a place where I can do
some sort of action,
512
00:28:13,916 --> 00:28:16,916
to maybe not completely solve
the problem, but,
513
00:28:17,708 --> 00:28:20,458
work towards, like, solving that problem.
514
00:28:20,458 --> 00:28:20,708
Yeah.
515
00:28:20,708 --> 00:28:23,750
And none of that say like specific
worksheet task or something like that.
516
00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:27,000
It's the meaningful
let's let's do something that's important
517
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,000
for our community, for example, or,
you know,
518
00:28:30,916 --> 00:28:33,916
do something that's going to engage
the people around us in a better way.
519
00:28:35,875 --> 00:28:37,458
Are you an IB educator wanting
520
00:28:37,458 --> 00:28:40,791
to improve your practice and needing
just a bit more support getting there?
521
00:28:41,458 --> 00:28:45,000
Ever wanted to learn more about a specific
aspect of the diploma program?
522
00:28:45,291 --> 00:28:49,250
Or just ask a question to an educational
theorist about a specific IB aspect?
523
00:28:49,791 --> 00:28:51,958
IB Unplugged is the place for you.
524
00:28:51,958 --> 00:28:56,458
Simply visit kognity.com/ibunplugged
to submit your question to us,
525
00:28:56,666 --> 00:28:59,916
and have your question explored
in more detail in an upcoming episode.
526
00:29:00,458 --> 00:29:02,000
And now, back to the show.
527
00:29:03,416 --> 00:29:04,708
When we think about
528
00:29:04,708 --> 00:29:08,750
the kind of actual parts of your job,
you've talked about a lot of the different
529
00:29:08,750 --> 00:29:13,750
pieces that you've designed, elements
in the platform, to what degree,
530
00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:16,916
I mean, you know a lot of things.
Melanie.
531
00:29:17,458 --> 00:29:19,375
No. You,
532
00:29:19,375 --> 00:29:23,291
your your research is so relevant
to the product.
533
00:29:23,291 --> 00:29:25,291
I mean, that's why you're here.
534
00:29:25,291 --> 00:29:30,125
How much have you seen
the role of evidence and research actually
535
00:29:30,125 --> 00:29:36,083
play out in designing Kognity’s content,
designing the platform, things like that.
536
00:29:36,083 --> 00:29:40,583
Like, were there when you were listening
to Hattie's episode or when you've read,
537
00:29:40,583 --> 00:29:44,291
obviously you read him before you joined
Kognity, but you've he's come up
538
00:29:44,291 --> 00:29:49,500
with some new stuff too, like what
stands out as like these are practices
539
00:29:49,916 --> 00:29:54,916
specifically, and this is research
specifically that has shaped Kognity?
540
00:29:55,541 --> 00:29:55,833
Yeah.
541
00:29:55,833 --> 00:30:00,541
I think, when we think about,
the things that we design,
542
00:30:00,708 --> 00:30:06,916
we are taking in pieces from
not only like education research,
543
00:30:06,916 --> 00:30:11,291
but psychology research
and also some anthropological research.
544
00:30:11,291 --> 00:30:15,041
That's the,
you know, learning is social aspect. And,
545
00:30:16,583 --> 00:30:19,875
when we
take in all those pieces of research
546
00:30:20,333 --> 00:30:24,416
and we have to design something
to infuse all of those things,
547
00:30:25,625 --> 00:30:27,625
we think about, okay,
548
00:30:27,625 --> 00:30:30,625
we have a learner
and we're going to situate them in this,
549
00:30:30,625 --> 00:30:33,625
digital learning environment. And,
550
00:30:34,458 --> 00:30:37,375
that digital learning environment
is sometimes
551
00:30:37,375 --> 00:30:41,125
going to be orchestrated by the learner
and sometimes orchestrated by the teacher.
552
00:30:41,666 --> 00:30:47,875
And, that's all going to be around
this like content knowledge.
553
00:30:47,875 --> 00:30:49,291
Right?
554
00:30:49,291 --> 00:30:52,375
And so in order for it
555
00:30:52,375 --> 00:30:55,750
to be successful, you have to take
556
00:30:55,750 --> 00:30:59,125
in those pieces of research
and fit them where it's appropriate.
557
00:30:59,375 --> 00:31:03,000
So, when we think about, research,
558
00:31:03,583 --> 00:31:06,958
from education
that tells us specifically, like,
559
00:31:06,958 --> 00:31:10,333
what do teachers need to do
in order to support good learning.
560
00:31:12,250 --> 00:31:14,291
But it's also these elements
of psychology,
561
00:31:14,291 --> 00:31:16,458
like we were just
talking about engagement.
562
00:31:16,458 --> 00:31:19,708
So we also have to think about,
okay, well,
563
00:31:20,250 --> 00:31:22,875
if we're thinking about
all three modes of engagement,
564
00:31:22,875 --> 00:31:25,958
how do we design things on the platform
that support those?
565
00:31:26,458 --> 00:31:29,458
And that's how all of this research
shows up
566
00:31:29,625 --> 00:31:31,083
in the Kognity platform.
567
00:31:32,208 --> 00:31:35,208
Because it's not enough to just say,
568
00:31:35,375 --> 00:31:38,458
like, here's how you do
chemical equations
569
00:31:38,458 --> 00:31:41,458
and, stoichiometry.
570
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:44,500
But how do we tap into,
571
00:31:44,875 --> 00:31:47,666
the behavioral engagement,
the cognitive engagement.
572
00:31:47,666 --> 00:31:49,375
And how do we design that?
573
00:31:49,375 --> 00:31:53,250
And so it shows up in the platform
in many different ways.
574
00:31:53,250 --> 00:31:58,416
And I think, if you look at how content
is presented, for example,
575
00:31:59,583 --> 00:32:03,291
oftentimes
content isn't just like go read this,
576
00:32:03,666 --> 00:32:08,250
it's, it's read an article,
watch a video, do a lab experiment.
577
00:32:09,166 --> 00:32:10,500
Try out this thing.
578
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:13,583
And those are all different ways
we're tapping into those different
579
00:32:13,583 --> 00:32:16,666
research
components of education, psychology
580
00:32:16,750 --> 00:32:18,083
and anthropology.
581
00:32:19,708 --> 00:32:22,375
And also the ways that we give students
582
00:32:22,375 --> 00:32:26,750
opportunities to like,
prove their competency in the platform.
583
00:32:26,875 --> 00:32:31,625
So we have opportunities
where they can do a little reflection.
584
00:32:31,625 --> 00:32:33,416
They can also do a little self-check,
585
00:32:34,375 --> 00:32:35,375
where they get feedback
586
00:32:35,375 --> 00:32:38,375
on like,
do I actually know what I think I know?
587
00:32:39,208 --> 00:32:41,750
And then they also have opportunities
to like practice
588
00:32:41,750 --> 00:32:45,625
assessments or engage in assessments,
which are, feedback on
589
00:32:45,625 --> 00:32:48,708
where they are
in their mastery spectrum of knowledge.
590
00:32:49,625 --> 00:32:52,291
And I think that's
how the research shows up.
591
00:32:52,291 --> 00:32:52,541
Yeah.
592
00:32:52,541 --> 00:32:54,083
You can see where there's
so much intention
593
00:32:54,083 --> 00:32:58,125
behind implementing
good pedagogy into usability,
594
00:32:58,125 --> 00:33:00,708
you know, and both from the teacher
and from the students.
595
00:33:00,708 --> 00:33:04,125
And what I love about what you just said
is, you know, sometimes the learning
596
00:33:04,125 --> 00:33:07,500
is going to be facilitated by the teacher
and sometimes can be facilitated by
597
00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:08,208
the student.
598
00:33:08,208 --> 00:33:11,458
And it kind of leads
us nicely into this next segment.
599
00:33:11,458 --> 00:33:15,583
I guess I want to look into,
you know, inquiry and instruction
600
00:33:15,958 --> 00:33:18,625
and learning design
because, you know, one of the things
601
00:33:18,625 --> 00:33:21,208
we ended up talking about with Hattie,
and actually something that just comes up
602
00:33:21,208 --> 00:33:25,708
in most conversations is this idea of like
the tension between genuine inquiry
603
00:33:25,708 --> 00:33:29,333
and letting somebody discover
something and come across it.
604
00:33:29,333 --> 00:33:31,791
And that sort of explore,
I think, is one of the five,
605
00:33:31,791 --> 00:33:34,958
as you mentioned before, versus
the direct instruction,
606
00:33:34,958 --> 00:33:37,291
which I guess would
be more on that explain area.
607
00:33:38,250 --> 00:33:38,583
How do you
608
00:33:38,583 --> 00:33:41,583
see that kind of playing out
in the learning design itself?
609
00:33:41,583 --> 00:33:44,875
How do we kind of balance or not balance,
but I guess play with that
610
00:33:44,875 --> 00:33:48,000
tension of inquiry versus
direct instruction?
611
00:33:48,708 --> 00:33:48,875
Yeah.
612
00:33:48,875 --> 00:33:53,041
I think, something that Hattie mentioned
is that these two things don't
613
00:33:53,041 --> 00:33:57,750
have to be in conflict with each other
because they both serve a purpose.
614
00:33:57,958 --> 00:34:00,958
They're both good
at doing different things.
615
00:34:01,125 --> 00:34:04,125
And so, I think about,
616
00:34:04,875 --> 00:34:07,875
when we develop learning experiences,
617
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,000
we have to think about what is,
618
00:34:11,208 --> 00:34:13,875
the learning objective of this thing.
619
00:34:13,875 --> 00:34:19,583
Is it to be in line with something
that's a better fit
620
00:34:19,583 --> 00:34:24,291
for direct instruction, or is it something
that's a better fit for inquiry?
621
00:34:24,750 --> 00:34:28,750
So, you know, let's take a simple example
of, of labs,
622
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,000
some, space where you collect observations
and you have evidence
623
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,250
and you come up with questions
after you collect that evidence. And,
624
00:34:38,583 --> 00:34:41,208
that's not really a good place
for direct instruction.
625
00:34:41,208 --> 00:34:42,083
It's not the place
626
00:34:42,083 --> 00:34:46,333
where you tell students like,
okay, do this, do this, do this, do this.
627
00:34:46,333 --> 00:34:49,333
You want students to get into it and,
628
00:34:49,416 --> 00:34:54,625
and and play with those materials and,
you know, not necessarily
629
00:34:54,625 --> 00:34:58,250
make mistakes depending on the lab, but
because it can be a little bit dangerous.
630
00:34:59,083 --> 00:35:01,750
But you do want them to sort of like,
have the boundaries
631
00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:04,833
of playing with different variables
to see these different outcomes.
632
00:35:04,833 --> 00:35:09,875
So then they can, use that to inform
how they understand something.
633
00:35:09,875 --> 00:35:13,458
And, and that's,
a nice place for inquiry to show up.
634
00:35:14,750 --> 00:35:18,625
I think too is, considering that
635
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:24,625
when we're designing those experiences,
are we staying true
636
00:35:24,833 --> 00:35:29,416
to what direct instruction
is and what inquiry is?
637
00:35:31,333 --> 00:35:31,750
A lot of
638
00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:34,833
people think
inquiry is just like free exploration.
639
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,375
Oh, yeah.
We've talked about this, Melanie. Right?
640
00:35:37,375 --> 00:35:40,250
Like the different stages of inquiry.
641
00:35:40,250 --> 00:35:41,625
That's right.
642
00:35:41,625 --> 00:35:45,833
And if we if we go back to, like,
our father of inquiry, John Dewey,
643
00:35:46,583 --> 00:35:50,041
he says inquiry is a cycle
and that cycle starts
644
00:35:50,041 --> 00:35:54,166
with, like, thinking about a problem
so that you
645
00:35:54,333 --> 00:35:56,875
you've observed
something, you've observed a problem,
646
00:35:56,875 --> 00:36:00,333
or you've observed
something that is intriguing to you.
647
00:36:00,791 --> 00:36:04,083
And, that's
actually where the inquiry starts,
648
00:36:04,083 --> 00:36:07,666
not in this kind of free
exploration of something.
649
00:36:08,458 --> 00:36:12,333
But rather thinking about the problem
and thinking about, solutions
650
00:36:12,333 --> 00:36:13,375
to that problem.
651
00:36:13,375 --> 00:36:17,875
And, and that's where you then
pivot towards this,
652
00:36:18,833 --> 00:36:21,458
the exploration of like your hypothesis.
653
00:36:21,458 --> 00:36:22,250
Right?
654
00:36:22,250 --> 00:36:25,500
It doesn't start
with the exploration of the hypothesis.
655
00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:29,041
It starts back with that, problem
observation that guides
656
00:36:29,041 --> 00:36:32,458
you towards what you're going to, explore.
657
00:36:33,416 --> 00:36:35,541
And so I think about when we're
658
00:36:35,541 --> 00:36:39,625
designing these experiences, you can't
just like plop inquiry somewhere.
659
00:36:39,625 --> 00:36:44,208
It has to, you know, be part of this cycle
that started with this problem,
660
00:36:44,541 --> 00:36:48,500
that engage the students with thinking
about trying to figure it out.
661
00:36:50,041 --> 00:36:52,000
And the same with direct instruction.
662
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,250
Direct instruction isn't just
663
00:36:55,250 --> 00:36:58,791
actually like facilitating information
to students.
664
00:36:58,791 --> 00:37:01,791
There's like a way that direct instruction
665
00:37:01,791 --> 00:37:04,791
is engaging with students.
666
00:37:04,916 --> 00:37:08,250
I like to rely on that idea
of the Socratic method.
667
00:37:08,250 --> 00:37:08,541
Right?
668
00:37:08,541 --> 00:37:12,416
That is a form of direct instruction,
but it does involve asking questions
669
00:37:12,833 --> 00:37:16,833
and getting students to say things
that then the teacher can push back
670
00:37:16,833 --> 00:37:19,833
with different questions and,
671
00:37:19,958 --> 00:37:23,000
you know,
just sort of designing the experience
672
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,583
to sort of like be true to,
what direct instruction and inquiry are.
673
00:37:28,833 --> 00:37:29,125
Yeah.
674
00:37:29,125 --> 00:37:33,458
We had one podcast with David Didau
and he was basically saying,
675
00:37:33,458 --> 00:37:36,500
like, you don't all have to hate
direct instruction.
676
00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:40,791
It doesn't like suck by default, which is
really not the way that he said it.
677
00:37:41,791 --> 00:37:43,791
He was a little bit
more eloquent than that.
678
00:37:45,958 --> 00:37:48,000
But I mean, it's exactly that, right?
679
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,208
Like, not all inquiry is like,
680
00:37:52,250 --> 00:37:55,333
free for all experience and not all direct
681
00:37:55,333 --> 00:37:58,666
instruction is just boring or just,
682
00:37:59,666 --> 00:38:03,458
sage on the stage
kind of, experience there.
683
00:38:03,458 --> 00:38:04,458
It's like.
684
00:38:04,458 --> 00:38:08,500
Like, I really like what you're saying
about what are the right times to do,
685
00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:11,875
which type of instruction
and what are the strategies
686
00:38:11,875 --> 00:38:14,875
that you're using
within those realms?
687
00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:18,166
Yeah, how you shaped those experiences
688
00:38:18,166 --> 00:38:22,083
that actually show
if it has that visible impact.
689
00:38:22,166 --> 00:38:22,750
Yeah.
690
00:38:22,750 --> 00:38:27,541
And I think that's something Hattie
mentioned too, is that even doing inquiry,
691
00:38:28,166 --> 00:38:31,791
students
have to have a foundation of information
692
00:38:31,791 --> 00:38:37,250
in order to engage in inquiry
in a really authentic and productive way.
693
00:38:37,708 --> 00:38:41,916
So, you know, if you want
to engage students in some sort of like
694
00:38:41,958 --> 00:38:46,750
science concept, but they don't have
the sort of background knowledge
695
00:38:46,750 --> 00:38:50,750
in order to ask the right questions
or make the right observations,
696
00:38:51,333 --> 00:38:54,083
then you know, you're not staying true to,
697
00:38:55,708 --> 00:38:58,708
what inquiry is asking the students to do.
698
00:38:58,708 --> 00:39:01,500
And that kind of foundational knowledge
699
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:04,166
most likely might come
from direct instruction.
700
00:39:05,375 --> 00:39:08,500
Now I know, obviously
as you design, you know,
701
00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:11,750
the resources with Kognity,
you're thinking about this stuff
702
00:39:12,875 --> 00:39:14,666
on the on the opposite side of it.
703
00:39:14,666 --> 00:39:16,166
You know, I'm I'm the teacher here.
704
00:39:16,166 --> 00:39:19,958
What's the ideal way
that I can be using the platform
705
00:39:19,958 --> 00:39:22,166
for those sort of moments
of structured guidance,
706
00:39:22,166 --> 00:39:25,375
as well as for those moments of student
led exploration,
707
00:39:25,375 --> 00:39:28,375
like when you're putting this together,
what do you think is like,
708
00:39:28,583 --> 00:39:31,583
when the teacher does it like this,
then it meets each of these avenues.
709
00:39:32,875 --> 00:39:35,750
I think the main thing is
that the teachers
710
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:39,208
should always be thinking
that this is not all or nothing.
711
00:39:40,291 --> 00:39:41,625
It's not all platform.
712
00:39:41,625 --> 00:39:43,250
It's not all off platform.
713
00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:48,958
It's this nice, sweet spot of,
blended, platform and teacher time.
714
00:39:49,166 --> 00:39:54,750
So, I think about when a student
approaches
715
00:39:54,750 --> 00:39:59,416
something in the platform, let's say
there's a reading for students to do, that
716
00:39:59,416 --> 00:40:01,916
the teacher is thinking
it doesn't end there.
717
00:40:01,916 --> 00:40:07,041
It's not just that the students,
maybe the teacher do the reading.
718
00:40:07,375 --> 00:40:12,125
It's also,
that the teacher is going to recognize
719
00:40:12,125 --> 00:40:15,166
that we can take that reading
and what's in the reading.
720
00:40:15,416 --> 00:40:18,333
And we can also have a discussion
about it in our classroom.
721
00:40:18,333 --> 00:40:21,583
And so, you know,
the teacher should be thinking about
722
00:40:21,625 --> 00:40:25,666
how do I facilitate a discussion around
this reading that the students just had
723
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,541
that will help them get the most out
of that reading, and also help them
724
00:40:29,875 --> 00:40:33,333
ask the questions that are going to get us
to the next part of,
725
00:40:33,875 --> 00:40:35,375
the learning experience.
726
00:40:36,416 --> 00:40:36,875
And I think
727
00:40:36,875 --> 00:40:40,041
that's
something that is, definitely a struggle.
728
00:40:40,041 --> 00:40:43,041
I see, just like everywhere, is that,
729
00:40:43,458 --> 00:40:45,750
teachers receive a curriculum.
730
00:40:45,750 --> 00:40:51,791
And now we think, like I enact it
in its entirety, and that's all,
731
00:40:52,791 --> 00:40:56,541
but it it's more about thinking
about, like, how do we blend that?
732
00:40:57,208 --> 00:41:00,958
And how do we incorporate
our own learning experiences?
733
00:41:00,958 --> 00:41:04,875
How do we include our own teaching
practice
734
00:41:05,583 --> 00:41:09,208
in addition to the platform
that makes like
735
00:41:09,208 --> 00:41:12,875
a complete picture
of learning, for the student.
736
00:41:13,708 --> 00:41:16,708
Not just like this,
sort of like one sided experience.
737
00:41:17,333 --> 00:41:18,041
Yeah. What I'm hearing
738
00:41:18,041 --> 00:41:21,833
there is a lot of intention
to be creative as a teacher as well.
739
00:41:21,833 --> 00:41:26,541
You know, like use this as the baseline,
but don't discount your own experiences.
740
00:41:26,541 --> 00:41:29,666
Don't discount
what you can bring contextually as well.
741
00:41:29,666 --> 00:41:31,958
And I know for myself,
whenever I'm looking at it
742
00:41:31,958 --> 00:41:34,041
and I kind of think, okay,
these are the main learning
743
00:41:34,041 --> 00:41:35,458
principles, this stuff
I want to go through.
744
00:41:35,458 --> 00:41:39,250
And yes, I'll have some students read
a bit of the Kognity work ahead of time,
745
00:41:40,125 --> 00:41:42,916
but then even today I was like, oh,
I could design something
746
00:41:42,916 --> 00:41:46,791
about that now, because in our context,
these things are starting to bloom.
747
00:41:46,791 --> 00:41:48,708
Like our these plants are going.
748
00:41:48,708 --> 00:41:51,083
So I can easily bring them out
and we can start playing with those.
749
00:41:51,083 --> 00:41:55,541
And yeah,
so I just see the freedom to be creative.
750
00:41:55,541 --> 00:41:58,375
And it sounds like that
you're intentionally designing for.
751
00:41:58,375 --> 00:41:58,791
Yeah.
752
00:41:58,791 --> 00:42:02,458
And also thinking
about the student experiences.
753
00:42:04,125 --> 00:42:05,666
I was working with a
754
00:42:05,666 --> 00:42:09,166
teacher in New York recently
and they were saying,
755
00:42:10,041 --> 00:42:13,541
we have a biology unit
that, talks about mountain lions.
756
00:42:14,125 --> 00:42:18,166
And then, a student came to them
with an article that was like, hey,
757
00:42:18,916 --> 00:42:22,625
did you see this article where,
they found a mountain lion, like,
758
00:42:22,625 --> 00:42:27,041
roaming around Buffalo, New York?
And the teacher was like, say what?
759
00:42:27,375 --> 00:42:31,000
And so it like, you know, it was like,
that's not on the platform.
760
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,000
This article about, Buffalo
761
00:42:34,166 --> 00:42:35,416
mountain lions.
762
00:42:35,416 --> 00:42:39,333
But it's this opportunity for you
to take sort of this information
763
00:42:39,333 --> 00:42:43,416
from the platform and apply it
to this new experience that the student
764
00:42:43,416 --> 00:42:47,458
is bringing into the classroom
and expanding on that. Wow.
765
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,000
We have mountain lions and buffalo, like,
never would have thought that.
766
00:42:51,125 --> 00:42:55,916
And, that opens up like,
what other species do you think
767
00:42:55,916 --> 00:42:59,833
are roaming around the, you know, New York
that we haven't considered?
768
00:42:59,833 --> 00:43:04,041
And how do the principles
of what we learned here in this unit apply
769
00:43:04,083 --> 00:43:07,666
to understanding, like how these animals
show up in our spaces?
770
00:43:08,541 --> 00:43:09,833
So I think that's part of it, too.
771
00:43:12,458 --> 00:43:15,833
I think
that you are talking a lot about like,
772
00:43:15,833 --> 00:43:19,125
where does the where did the teacher
in the platform work together?
773
00:43:19,125 --> 00:43:22,916
And I think that one element
that stands out also for me
774
00:43:22,916 --> 00:43:27,625
is in the scaffolding and I
but I think that it's in a lot of ways
775
00:43:27,625 --> 00:43:30,041
that's where the teacher
can really shine through,
776
00:43:30,041 --> 00:43:31,708
because they know their students
a lot more.
777
00:43:31,708 --> 00:43:34,125
They know where the scaffolding is needed.
778
00:43:34,125 --> 00:43:39,500
But also, I think it's, a responsibility
of any curriculum and any edtech tool
779
00:43:39,625 --> 00:43:44,666
to also effectively scaffold
for developing these resources
780
00:43:44,666 --> 00:43:47,041
and developing
these learning experiences.
781
00:43:48,041 --> 00:43:50,250
Yeah,
what does it look like when it's done
782
00:43:50,250 --> 00:43:53,875
effectively in the platform
to best support teachers?
783
00:43:54,083 --> 00:43:57,208
When you think about scaffolding,
you're thinking about this,
784
00:43:59,125 --> 00:44:02,666
sort of support
that you're giving students before
785
00:44:02,666 --> 00:44:07,291
they're able to act in these
ideal ways in the classroom.
786
00:44:08,333 --> 00:44:09,500
And so
787
00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:14,125
sometimes that scaffolding is considering
what's the prior knowledge
788
00:44:14,125 --> 00:44:17,541
that students should have before
they get to the starting point,
789
00:44:18,416 --> 00:44:20,375
so that they can move forward?
790
00:44:20,375 --> 00:44:24,958
And we know from, you know,
being in classrooms that not all students
791
00:44:24,958 --> 00:44:29,125
enter the classroom with the same set
of prior knowledge for many reasons.
792
00:44:29,625 --> 00:44:32,333
And so when we design things
793
00:44:32,333 --> 00:44:35,791
and learning experiences on the platform,
we have to consider,
794
00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:40,041
how do we make sure that students
have that prior knowledge so that they
795
00:44:40,208 --> 00:44:44,041
have the level footing to even engage
with this learning experience?
796
00:44:44,333 --> 00:44:48,750
Sometimes that looks like,
informing the teacher, here's the prior
797
00:44:48,750 --> 00:44:52,875
knowledge students need before they start
so that they can do something before,
798
00:44:53,708 --> 00:44:58,458
to get students to that level,
to be ready to engage in an idea.
799
00:44:59,958 --> 00:45:01,375
But it can also look like
800
00:45:01,375 --> 00:45:04,541
little seeds of information
that we put along the way,
801
00:45:05,375 --> 00:45:07,583
that are giving students that prior
802
00:45:07,583 --> 00:45:10,583
knowledge, like,
almost like a reminder of like,
803
00:45:10,708 --> 00:45:12,458
you remember, like
804
00:45:12,458 --> 00:45:15,291
you remember about atoms
and their subatomic particles.
805
00:45:15,291 --> 00:45:16,958
You remember about this.
806
00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:21,875
And I think that's one way of,
thinking about scaffolding.
807
00:45:21,875 --> 00:45:24,625
And the idea is that scaffolding
is impermanent.
808
00:45:24,625 --> 00:45:28,250
So scaffolding
is meant to fade away over time.
809
00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:31,875
And, and so as we progress through,
810
00:45:32,791 --> 00:45:36,833
different units and different topics,
we are intentionally,
811
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:40,541
sort of taking those pieces away
because students are,
812
00:45:41,291 --> 00:45:44,375
gaining more and more mastery,
as they move through
813
00:45:44,458 --> 00:45:47,541
and so then we are presenting different
814
00:45:47,541 --> 00:45:50,583
challenges, to students as we progress.
815
00:45:50,583 --> 00:45:54,875
And, but, but we sort of
put that scaffolding in place
816
00:45:55,041 --> 00:45:57,875
when they get to that challenge
so that they're ready to do it.
817
00:45:57,875 --> 00:46:02,708
I think another thing to think about, back
to thinking about what should teachers
818
00:46:02,708 --> 00:46:06,750
be doing with Kognity in the classroom
is you could also,
819
00:46:07,166 --> 00:46:10,666
think about Kognity
as a scaffolding tool. So,
820
00:46:12,625 --> 00:46:13,375
you know, maybe
821
00:46:13,375 --> 00:46:16,375
you have students
do something on the platform
822
00:46:16,375 --> 00:46:19,583
that is a scaffold to prepare them
for something
823
00:46:19,583 --> 00:46:21,208
you want to do,
824
00:46:22,750 --> 00:46:23,791
in the classroom
825
00:46:23,791 --> 00:46:26,791
directly, just,
you and the students as a teacher,
826
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,708
or maybe something you do
in the classroom as a scaffold
827
00:46:29,708 --> 00:46:33,083
for something that they are meant to do
on the platform, like an activity.
828
00:46:33,583 --> 00:46:36,833
And I think it's, you know,
you want to think about
829
00:46:36,833 --> 00:46:41,208
scaffolding in multiple ways,
how do these tools support each other,
830
00:46:41,666 --> 00:46:44,666
but also how does the tool itself
support students.
831
00:46:45,416 --> 00:46:46,625
That leads really nicely.
832
00:46:46,625 --> 00:46:49,958
I want to kind of get into
maybe this last area here
833
00:46:49,958 --> 00:46:55,208
where we're just talking about edtech,
AI, future of learning, that sort of stuff.
834
00:46:55,208 --> 00:46:58,958
And what you're mentioning there,
I think is really useful for any
835
00:46:58,958 --> 00:46:59,625
Kognity user.
836
00:46:59,625 --> 00:47:02,291
I guess anybody's really using
edtech platforms in general,
837
00:47:02,291 --> 00:47:06,166
not necessarily Kognity, but let's
talk specifically with Kognity.
838
00:47:06,208 --> 00:47:10,041
How can these platforms ensure
that that technology enhances
839
00:47:10,041 --> 00:47:11,750
and doesn't just replace good pedagogy?
840
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:12,750
And I guess, you know,
841
00:47:12,750 --> 00:47:16,500
you've given a great example here with,
you know, maybe you use the platform
842
00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:19,916
as a scaffolding to lead something
you do in the classroom or vice versa.
843
00:47:20,333 --> 00:47:24,750
Are there maybe two or other three
great examples of things that you think,
844
00:47:24,750 --> 00:47:25,916
like, teachers should be doing this
845
00:47:25,916 --> 00:47:29,250
with that platform so that you're
you're enhancing great pedagogy?
846
00:47:30,041 --> 00:47:36,958
When you are doing things
that require any kind of edtech,
847
00:47:37,958 --> 00:47:39,916
are you doing it for edtech sake
848
00:47:39,916 --> 00:47:42,916
or are you doing it because the edtech,
849
00:47:43,916 --> 00:47:46,958
supports
the thing that I want students to do,
850
00:47:46,958 --> 00:47:50,125
or the learning objectives
that I have for students?
851
00:47:51,541 --> 00:47:54,625
Think back to like the OG EdTech was like,
852
00:47:54,833 --> 00:47:57,625
PowerPoint slides, right?
853
00:47:57,625 --> 00:48:02,250
Where teachers like using PowerPoint
slides, just use PowerPoint.
854
00:48:02,250 --> 00:48:05,333
It's like, oh, I just took my notes
and now they're on PowerPoint.
855
00:48:05,791 --> 00:48:09,416
Or were they developing slide decks that,
856
00:48:10,541 --> 00:48:13,916
you know, would disseminate information
in a way that,
857
00:48:15,208 --> 00:48:19,083
would create engaging opportunities
for students, which is something
858
00:48:19,083 --> 00:48:23,333
that slide decks could do
if you didn't just put like a wall of text
859
00:48:23,666 --> 00:48:26,875
on a slide and call it,
like using technology.
860
00:48:28,375 --> 00:48:30,583
I'm just thinking about overhead
projectors right now.
861
00:48:30,583 --> 00:48:31,083
I'm not going to lie.
862
00:48:32,833 --> 00:48:34,000
Exactly.
863
00:48:34,791 --> 00:48:37,916
I know that, one of the last classrooms
I worked in,
864
00:48:38,791 --> 00:48:41,750
we were very fortunate that we had,
865
00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:44,333
been given tons of money to do, like,
upgrades.
866
00:48:44,333 --> 00:48:48,833
And I had a fancy lab
where I had, like a dedicated lab space,
867
00:48:48,833 --> 00:48:53,083
a dedicated lecture space, and my lecture
space came with a smartboard.
868
00:48:53,583 --> 00:48:56,416
And, the smartboard is like this
interactive thing.
869
00:48:56,416 --> 00:48:58,000
You could have students interact with it.
870
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:02,083
It came with like student response systems
where you could put up these
871
00:49:02,083 --> 00:49:03,500
like engaging questions
872
00:49:03,500 --> 00:49:06,500
and like in real time, get feedback
like what students know.
873
00:49:06,958 --> 00:49:10,750
And, you know, I saw most of my colleagues
874
00:49:10,750 --> 00:49:13,958
just like, look at this
fancy new PowerPoint presenter.
875
00:49:13,958 --> 00:49:15,666
And I was like, oh.
876
00:49:16,333 --> 00:49:18,750
And then all it is actually
is a projector.
877
00:49:18,958 --> 00:49:21,041
Yeah, it is just a projector.
878
00:49:21,041 --> 00:49:22,708
Look at this bigger projector.
879
00:49:25,250 --> 00:49:27,208
So, you know, I think about that.
880
00:49:27,208 --> 00:49:31,333
It's like, what is the thing
that edtech supports best for students
881
00:49:32,416 --> 00:49:35,416
and enacting it in those ways. And,
882
00:49:36,083 --> 00:49:38,916
you know, one great example is that,
883
00:49:38,916 --> 00:49:41,708
edtech can be this great, like,
884
00:49:41,708 --> 00:49:45,666
support for students
who need support in either
885
00:49:45,666 --> 00:49:50,125
direction in terms of like, going slower
or going a little bit faster.
886
00:49:50,125 --> 00:49:50,916
Right?
887
00:49:50,916 --> 00:49:54,208
If if you're one of those students,
you could take your time to go through
888
00:49:54,208 --> 00:49:58,625
the material that's on the platform,
or if you're very fast at it,
889
00:49:58,625 --> 00:50:01,625
you can go through the platform
like super fast.
890
00:50:02,666 --> 00:50:04,666
And that's a great thing
891
00:50:04,666 --> 00:50:08,458
that an edtech product can do that
a teacher can't do.
892
00:50:08,458 --> 00:50:10,958
I can't both be fast and slow
at the same time.
893
00:50:10,958 --> 00:50:12,916
I can only go the speed that I'm going.
894
00:50:14,916 --> 00:50:17,458
And I think like there are tools
that are evolving,
895
00:50:17,458 --> 00:50:20,625
especially in the like, student feedback
896
00:50:20,625 --> 00:50:23,625
realm where we're thinking about,
897
00:50:23,625 --> 00:50:28,500
when a student answers a question,
what can edtech tools do that
898
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:32,000
can look through their response to that
and give some real time
899
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,000
feedback to a student that says,
900
00:50:35,125 --> 00:50:37,958
great, you did excellent
901
00:50:37,958 --> 00:50:41,833
in understanding this concept,
but you kind of missed the mark here.
902
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:43,875
And here's some things you should do.
903
00:50:43,875 --> 00:50:48,375
Like to enhance your understanding
and also give that feedback to the teacher
904
00:50:48,375 --> 00:50:52,500
to say, hey, all your students just took
this test and I noticed
905
00:50:52,500 --> 00:50:56,541
they all have this common misconception
that a teaching opportunity
906
00:50:56,541 --> 00:51:01,541
that says I, as a teacher, need to adjust
my instruction to account for this.
907
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:06,458
So and that's something
that, a teacher can do, but it takes time.
908
00:51:06,458 --> 00:51:09,833
But, you know, leaning on the edtech tools
to, to do that
909
00:51:09,833 --> 00:51:12,916
kind of work for the teacher
so that the teacher can focus on
910
00:51:13,166 --> 00:51:16,750
what they do best,
which is enacting those, like practices
911
00:51:16,750 --> 00:51:19,750
that can't be done on a platform
like a discussion.
912
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:21,000
Nice.
913
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,458
So keep the learning objective.
914
00:51:22,458 --> 00:51:26,416
The main point don't just do the
edtech thing because it's flashy, right?
915
00:51:26,416 --> 00:51:27,375
Yeah.
916
00:51:27,375 --> 00:51:29,791
Recognize the differentiation ability
there.
917
00:51:29,791 --> 00:51:32,250
And the ability to be kind of fast
and slow at the same time,
918
00:51:32,250 --> 00:51:34,958
or allow students to engage
the way they want,
919
00:51:34,958 --> 00:51:37,375
scaffold when necessary,
and then also take advantage,
920
00:51:37,375 --> 00:51:40,541
I guess, of the
when you get a summary or here's
921
00:51:40,541 --> 00:51:42,000
what kids know
and here's what they don't know,
922
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,041
oh, you need to focus in on this area,
that area that kind of takes off.
923
00:51:45,083 --> 00:51:48,166
It offloads a little bit of that
load for us as well.
924
00:51:48,541 --> 00:51:50,083
Yeah. Good.
925
00:51:50,083 --> 00:51:54,416
Well Melanie, this has been so fun
to chat with you about all of this.
926
00:51:54,416 --> 00:51:56,541
I think it's so interesting.
927
00:51:56,541 --> 00:51:59,958
I mean, it's obviously interesting
for me, I work here. But, it's
928
00:51:59,958 --> 00:52:04,416
so I think it's important for people
to be able to understand
929
00:52:04,416 --> 00:52:09,166
how things are made to better know
how to use them and to, you know,
930
00:52:09,166 --> 00:52:12,916
really understand the intentionality
behind the choices that are made.
931
00:52:13,166 --> 00:52:18,666
And that's what sets a product up to be
valuable for teachers and for students.
932
00:52:18,666 --> 00:52:23,041
And I think you've given a lot of great,
insight into the behind the scenes,
933
00:52:23,041 --> 00:52:26,416
why things are the way they are,
but also a lot of ideas for
934
00:52:26,791 --> 00:52:29,625
how to use Kognity,
how to use edtech products in general.
935
00:52:29,625 --> 00:52:34,708
And yeah, just a bit more of that kind
of practical dive into a lot of the ideas
936
00:52:34,708 --> 00:52:37,708
that we talked about with,
John Hattie in the episode before.
937
00:52:37,916 --> 00:52:40,666
So thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
938
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,291
IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast hosted
by John Patton and Courtney Marline
939
00:52:45,291 --> 00:52:47,208
and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
940
00:52:47,208 --> 00:52:50,833
Be sure to subscribe or follow
and share with your fellow IB educators.
941
00:52:51,083 --> 00:52:54,375
If you'd like to submit a topic, request,
or a question, please do so
942
00:52:54,375 --> 00:52:57,083
on kognity.com/ibunplugged.
943
00:52:57,208 --> 00:52:58,791
Let's keep the conversation going
944
00:52:58,791 --> 00:53:02,250
and support each other in teaching
with confidence, creativity, and joy.
945
00:53:02,583 --> 00:53:03,416
See you next time.
00:00:00,166 --> 00:00:04,583
Welcome to IB Unplugged,
a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators,
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00:00:04,583 --> 00:00:08,375
that tackles your submitted questions
and challenges by connecting you with
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00:00:08,375 --> 00:00:12,125
experts and peers who share their ideas
and stories from real classrooms.
4
00:00:12,708 --> 00:00:16,750
Hi everybody, and welcome to this week's
episode of IB Unplugged.
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00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,666
We really hope you enjoyed
our previous episode with John Hattie.
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00:00:20,666 --> 00:00:22,083
And so we decided to do something
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00:00:22,083 --> 00:00:24,416
a little bit different
than what we've done before.
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And we wanted to take some of the key
principles and the ideas that we spoke
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00:00:27,416 --> 00:00:30,708
about in Hattie's episode,
and then talk about the way in which
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these ideas are actually implemented
in Kognity’s platform itself.
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So today we're talking with Doctor Melanie
Snow, who's part of the product team,
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and we're going to be looking into
how do we take the actual pedagogy,
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the actual research
and put it into reality.
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How do we make visible learning
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actually true in the actual platform
that you see with Kognity itself.
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00:00:49,916 --> 00:00:50,625
Exactly.
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I think this episode made a lot of sense
for me.
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One, because when I first
joined Kognity a long time ago,
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that was basically required
reading when everyone first joined was
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like, you better know who John Hattie is
if you're going to work in education.
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And, so it really has been
a fundamental part
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of the way
that the product's been designed,
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the way we talk about education
within our company.
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And then I figured Melanie would be
one of the best people to talk to,
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because not only is her job right now
as a learning experience designer
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really deeply rooted in making these kind
of pedagogical decisions
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on how the products design.
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But also this is really where
her background comes in.
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Melanie was originally a high school
science teacher in the United States.
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She's based in Chicago, but then she went
and did her PhD, learning
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about motivation and kind of learning
design and all of these things.
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And now that's really at the heart
of what she's doing at Kognity.
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So great fit hearing about her background,
her experiences, and really
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what her intentionality is in the way
that she helps build Kognity’s product.
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We're so glad you're here.
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00:01:56,041 --> 00:01:59,833
Let's talk about how we take this theory
into practice with Doctor Melanie Snow.
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00:02:06,333 --> 00:02:08,375
Hi, Melanie, welcome to
IB Unplugged.
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00:02:08,375 --> 00:02:10,708
Thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for having me.
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Yeah. Of course.
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So what we want to get started with
is usually when we have a teacher
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or a IB coordinator
or something like that,
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we don't actually need to explain
what their job is.
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However, your job is a learning experience
designer, and I think there are probably
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quite a few people who are listening
that don't really know what that means.
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Could you describe a little bit
about what your role is
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and what it looks like in your day to day?
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Sure.
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So what I do
as a learning experience designer is that,
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I help design, develop and implement,
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different learning experiences
on our Kognity platform.
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And, that can look like, a lesson design
for a student
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that can also look like teacher
support materials for teachers.
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And, our high school science side,
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committees platform.
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Sorry.
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We design teacher support tools like,
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slide decks, worksheets,
different performance
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tasks and things like that
for students to do in the classroom.
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I also participate in a lot of discussions
around the user interface design,
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in terms of what does supporting
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learning look like
on a digital platform.
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Nice one.
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So obviously,
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Melanie, we want to talk a little bit
about like how you apply visible learning
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or going from that research to reality
and how you kind of get that in
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into Kognity’s platform.
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And I know you've just, been able
to see that episode with John Hattie
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and kind of learn about that discussion
and that sort of thing.
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I know you're applying
a lot of those principles
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in the actual design of what you do
within Kognity’s platform anyway.
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But thinking back on that conversation
from John Hattie,
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what kind of resonated with you
the most as, yeah, I'm all about that.
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What kind of stuck
with you? I will say that,
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Hattie talked about this idea of,
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there's just too much stuff to learn.
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And I think traditionally in classrooms,
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one of the things that we've tried to do
is focus on like, if students are going
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to learn chemistry, for example,
we've got to get them all of this stuff.
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And, in terms of moving away from that,
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I know, here in the US, we've adopted
next generation science standards
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and that has sort of retold what is
important in the classroom to learn.
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And it really takes away
sort of that, that breadth and going
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more into depth, which was something
that, Hattie was talking about.
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And, you know, we've
we found that students
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really love to dig deep into an idea
rather than just learn all the ideas.
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And so that's something
that really resonated with me,
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was when Hattie was talking about that,
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what do you remember
the most about your classroom experiences?
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And it is those moments
where you really just kind of like,
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went off the rails and you, like,
dug into a topic rather than like, oh,
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I learned every single thing
there is to know about elements.
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And I think also something else
that resonated with me
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was that connected to this idea
of like going deep in the subject
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is the idea that we are excellent at,
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training the curiosity out of students.
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I taught high school science,
and by the time I got kids,
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in their junior year of high school
or senior year of high school,
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the curiosity was pretty
much like non-existent in kids.
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They were ready to know
what were the right answers.
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What did I need to know for the test?
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And, it was really hard to get them
engaged in that curiosity again.
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And, you know, having a daughter,
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I always knew the curiosity was somewhere
in there, but having a daughter,
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young daughter, I realized that that's
something that was inherent to kids.
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Is that, the curiosity is there. And,
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what do
we do between these young ages and,
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almost young adulthood that we,
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sort of, like, train them
not to be curious anymore.
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Yeah.
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I was talking
about exactly that thing today
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with one of my colleagues about, like,
what kind of happens in these years
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that suddenly this, like, passion and that
spark for learning kind of decreases.
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I think there's lots of factors.
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We can't point to one thing,
but I would agree with you.
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You know, it's almost like in that DP
classroom, you're kind of trying to
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reignite or generate it again and be like,
don't worry about the answers per se.
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Like, let's develop your curiosity again.
Let's get you engaged.
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And the thing that's cool about this
subject, right?
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Yeah.
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So another thing that obviously comes up
with pretty much everything
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that Hattie releases
is the knowing your impact.
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And in your role at Kognity, what does
that look like in practice for you?
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I think what it looks like
in practice to me is that,
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Kognity is full
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of great people
that are experts at their jobs,
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engineers, UX designers,
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people who deliver professional
development.
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She hasn't mentioned my job.
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I was noticing,
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but I wasn't going to say anything
about it.
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Pretty much everyone except for..
No.
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No, everybody.
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Everybody.
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Especially Courtney.
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I saved her for last.
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You're saving best for last.
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See you ruined it, Court.
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Come on.
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But, not everybody has,
classroom experience
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or has, education experience
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other than the education
that they experienced,
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growing up and, that education
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back then, because we're all older,
we're not all
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sitting in a classroom right now
unless we're doing a PhD.
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That experience
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has looked very different over time.
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Most of us sat in classrooms where we sat,
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in rows,
and our teacher talked about us all day.
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And, then we were supposed to absorb
that information and then take a test.
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And learning has changed a lot.
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And so has teaching.
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And so I think part of the impact
I get to make at my job,
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is sort of behind the scenes of sharing
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what is good teaching and learning
look like in the classroom.
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And, how do we pay attention to that
when we're thinking
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about the elements
that we design for Kognity.
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And then also I participate
in designing that stuff as well.
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And, so then I get to take those good
teaching and learning practices
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and infuse them into the work
that I do for Kognity.
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One thing I can think of specifically were
when we made slide decks for teachers,
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people were like, yeah,
we just take the information
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and we put it on the slide.
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Ta da!
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And I was like, actually,
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there are a lot of great things
we could build into a slide deck.
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We could build, facilitation notes
that tell teachers, you know,
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we're going to have a discussion here,
some great discussion prompts or,
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I know you're sitting in a classroom
full of diverse learners.
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Here are six different strategies
you can use to address
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like six different,
diverse learning needs.
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We know that time is precious.
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So here's, ballpark of the pacing
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that it's going to take to do this
part of this lesson.
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So therefore you can decide,
how you're going to adjust
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to meet the needs
of your classroom.
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Building in simple things like,
queuing icons,
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just a little thing at the top of the
slide that communicates to the student.
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We're about to participate
in the whole class
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discussion,
or we're about to do a think pair share.
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And they're little things,
but they really make
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a huge impact in the classroom
in terms of, supporting the learners.
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I love that because it's absolutely true.
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And as, as somebody who uses the platform
as well, you notice those things
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and it helps you be more intentional.
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So when it comes to
I guess, yeah, knowing your impact,
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it's that classic quote of
of being a teacher, right?
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You you kind of impact eternity.
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You don't really know where your influence
stops.
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And I would say the same thing.
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And as education evolves,
it is it's those little things.
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It's those small tweaks and small changes
that suddenly make it a bit better.
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Increment by increment, you know?
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So I guess. Yeah.
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Just grateful for that. Thanks.
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You’re welcome.
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Is there maybe like a specific
learning principle or something
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that you kind of always keep in your head
when you're designing this stuff?
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When you're trying
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to apply that visible learning stuff
in, in your resource development?
200
00:11:03,541 --> 00:11:04,500
Yeah. I think,
201
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one thing that I like
202
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to keep in mind is that,
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learning is actually very social.
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A lot of people think, learning
can be individual,
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and there are some aspects
that can be individual, but,
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learning inherently
is social because it comes from
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you learn about something and then
you discuss it with another person.
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00:11:30,583 --> 00:11:33,833
And then they challenge you on
how you're thinking about that idea.
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00:11:33,833 --> 00:11:39,083
Or maybe they add insight to something
that you're thinking about or experience.
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And you have this back and forth and,
that's really
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where the learning happens
is in this like, social dynamic.
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And so something I try to consider
when designing things is
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how are we attending
to that social aspect of learning,
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especially when we're talking about
learning happening on a digital platform.
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00:12:00,625 --> 00:12:05,333
Where are the places that you're giving
students opportunity to both,
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00:12:06,583 --> 00:12:10,083
absorb information or
collect evidence and observations.
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But then,
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where do they go with that?
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Yeah.
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So do we provide them opportunities
to have a discussion
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or to share out that learning
in some way that can,
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00:12:21,541 --> 00:12:24,541
you know, pay
attention to that, social aspect.
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It's super refreshing to hear that,
because I know a lot of people
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that would criticize the digital
sort of learning
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or that sort of space would say it's
because it makes them isolated.
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But to know that as an experience is,
you know, as a designer
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of that content, you're thinking of
how do we make this more social,
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is, yeah, that's great to hear,
especially as an educator.
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As our last warm up question,
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I want to ask you, you mentioned
you are a high school science teacher.
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Then you went in,
you did your PhD, now you're here,
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stuck with us.
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What drew you to learning design
and the space?
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I would say,
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it was sort of the
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thing that drew me out of
the classroom is that,
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as a classroom teacher, I impacted
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150 students a year,
and that was my boundary.
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And, I really enjoyed, teaching.
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And I really enjoyed learning
about students, specifically,
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what motivates students
to keep engaging with learning.
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And so when I left the classroom
and stepped into a PhD,
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my thought
was, I'm going to work with teachers,
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because if I can work with teachers
and sort of,
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infuse them with, like, what good teaching
looks like and how to be really
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supportive of students, then they can each
go impact 150 kids a year.
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And that's going to broaden,
like how good teaching
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practices
are infused in the education community.
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But then I also thought,
but that only works
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if teachers have great curriculum
to work with.
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And so where
could I make that kind of impact?
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And so that's
what kind of drew me to Kognity
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is that I,
I could help design learning experiences
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and also support teachers
at the same time.
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So then I could make sure
that while teachers are picking up,
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great teaching practices,
they also have great curriculum to work
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with to
enact those teaching practices.
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All right. Well, let's
get into kind of the main parts here.
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We're talking about
how we go from research into reality.
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And of course,
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kind of reflecting on John
Hattie's episode
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and what he was talking there
about visible learning.
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And I know,
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you know, any educator out there
has probably done a little bit of work
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with visible learning,
and they're aware of those things.
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But let's talk about how we kind of take
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that research, put it into practice,
and expand on what you talked about here.
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I guess, first off, when you think of,
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the work that Hattie has done
and some of the things that we spoke
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about in the episode,
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was there anything that really challenged
or maybe shifted your thinking?
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I don't know if it's necessarily
challenged
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my thinking or shifted my thinking,
but it was almost like
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a reminder of something
that I, I tend to forget about.
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And I it was
when Hattie was talking about, reflection.
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He was talking about
we tell kids to reflect, reflect, reflect.
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And we know from research,
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reflection is really important
for like shifting student thinking,
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especially when that reflection involves,
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like, thinking about progress
or thinking about, evidence
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and connecting that to current thinking
and, shifting thinking.
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But we don't actually teach students
how to reflect.
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We just embed
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opportunities for reflection,
but we don't think about
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they might
actually not know how to reflect.
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So I think that's something that,
287
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is something I have known,
288
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but it was like a good reminder
for me that
289
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all of these strategies, the ones that
how he talks about invisible learning or
290
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any of the strategies from research
in general, are good strategies.
291
00:16:08,541 --> 00:16:11,625
But we never take that
step backwards to say,
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do my students actually
know how to do that?
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Discussion is another big one
294
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where we know that
discussion has a high impact
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for many reasons.
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One of the ones I just mentioned,
which was that it's social, right?
297
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When you have classroom discussions
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or small group discussions,
we bring in that social aspect.
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But do we teach kids
how to have discussions?
300
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And so in order for something
to be impactful,
301
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,250
we have to take a
step backwards and say, okay,
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I want my
303
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students to participate in discussion,
but do they know how?
304
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And and putting together
305
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the resources that support students
and developing those skills
306
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so that they can do the high impact
strategies in the classroom?
307
00:16:56,333 --> 00:16:58,375
And I think it's the same
for teachers, too,
308
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,000
as we want teachers to have all these
great teaching practices.
309
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,583
But do we spend time teaching teachers
how to build that practice?
310
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I think that was like a good reminder
for me
311
00:17:11,541 --> 00:17:16,208
that it takes more than just infusing
the practice or the strategy.
312
00:17:16,791 --> 00:17:19,250
We also have to think about
how do we support the development
313
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of that for teachers and students.
314
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,916
Yeah. No, I, I completely agree.
315
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I think that really resonates
316
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with a lot of the professional learning
that we've done
317
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at Kognity, where we host
these conferences and things like that.
318
00:17:30,875 --> 00:17:35,625
And it's like nobody ever goes
to a professional development being like,
319
00:17:35,625 --> 00:17:39,625
you know, I just really want to learn
more about these details in chemistry.
320
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Like, that's not it.
321
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That's the part you can kind of
figure out on your own time.
322
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And it is this like,
I know I want my kids to be
323
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having discussions, but
324
00:17:52,875 --> 00:17:56,291
how do I get them to have discussions
that are actually constructive
325
00:17:56,291 --> 00:17:59,125
and like being able
to build these frameworks for them?
326
00:17:59,125 --> 00:18:01,916
I agree that that's that's
definitely important.
327
00:18:01,916 --> 00:18:04,791
What do you think that educators are
328
00:18:04,791 --> 00:18:09,500
misunderstanding most often
about what works best and learning like?
329
00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:12,500
Is there anything that you see time
and time again where it's like
330
00:18:13,708 --> 00:18:17,375
they are trying to
or think that they're doing,
331
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one of these kind of learning,
high impact, strategies.
332
00:18:21,875 --> 00:18:24,375
But then actually, it's not.
333
00:18:24,375 --> 00:18:26,458
I think I have two thoughts on this.
334
00:18:26,458 --> 00:18:28,791
One of them Hattie brought up,
which is,
335
00:18:29,583 --> 00:18:31,083
the idea of..
336
00:18:31,250 --> 00:18:34,583
You don’t just walk into the classroom
and implement strategies.
337
00:18:34,916 --> 00:18:38,916
You first have to identify the problem
and then find the right strategies
338
00:18:38,916 --> 00:18:39,958
to solve the problem.
339
00:18:39,958 --> 00:18:43,291
I think that's a big one
where you can't go through
340
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a checklist and say, high impact,
high impact, high impact.
341
00:18:46,333 --> 00:18:49,416
I'm going to do these things
and magically transform my classroom.
342
00:18:49,916 --> 00:18:54,416
I think you really have to think about
what's my classroom environment,
343
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what's the learning environment,
what are my students needs
344
00:18:58,166 --> 00:19:00,666
and then pick the strategies
that fit with that
345
00:19:00,666 --> 00:19:02,666
and in solving that problem.
346
00:19:03,166 --> 00:19:05,458
I think, too, is the idea that,
347
00:19:06,208 --> 00:19:09,958
sometimes in the classroom,
we think we're enacting strategies,
348
00:19:09,958 --> 00:19:13,041
but we're actually not doing anything
different in the classroom.
349
00:19:15,291 --> 00:19:17,791
I always come back to discussion
because this was
350
00:19:17,791 --> 00:19:21,750
one of my research topics
for my PhD, but,
351
00:19:23,125 --> 00:19:26,458
you know, when discussion came on
the scene as like, this is really big,
352
00:19:26,708 --> 00:19:30,916
a big strategy for shifting and learning,
and we got to have more discussions
353
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in the classroom.
354
00:19:32,208 --> 00:19:34,375
A lot of teachers are like,
yeah, I'm doing that.
355
00:19:34,375 --> 00:19:37,375
But the discussion
look like one way questions
356
00:19:37,375 --> 00:19:40,916
from teacher to student and then students
answering those questions.
357
00:19:41,125 --> 00:19:43,583
And they were like, see,
I'm having a discussion.
358
00:19:43,583 --> 00:19:46,083
But actually discussions are
back and forth.
359
00:19:46,083 --> 00:19:46,541
Right?
360
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,791
It's a partnership
where both people get to ask questions
361
00:19:50,791 --> 00:19:53,791
and both people get to contribute answers.
362
00:19:54,291 --> 00:19:58,333
And that's what really is the richness
of a classroom discussion.
363
00:19:59,333 --> 00:20:00,458
And so I think,
364
00:20:01,333 --> 00:20:04,500
enacting strategies,
but not really understanding
365
00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:06,083
how the strategy is different
366
00:20:06,083 --> 00:20:09,833
than what you're currently doing in
the classroom is one of the areas that
367
00:20:10,916 --> 00:20:13,083
are necessary for
368
00:20:13,083 --> 00:20:16,208
teachers to grow and enact
these high impact strategies.
369
00:20:16,916 --> 00:20:20,541
So one of the things I love about
what you just said is that I, I highly
370
00:20:20,708 --> 00:20:21,625
agree with it.
371
00:20:21,625 --> 00:20:24,625
There's so often that you have teachers
who just feel like I'm
372
00:20:24,625 --> 00:20:28,375
doing the same thing, and this is just
a new name for what I already do,
373
00:20:28,375 --> 00:20:32,458
and it kind of ignores
the evolution of education and ignores
374
00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:34,875
what we can actually do
to make those small increments,
375
00:20:34,875 --> 00:20:37,375
to make it a lot better
when we're closed off to it.
376
00:20:37,375 --> 00:20:40,791
And we don't think about
learning ourselves as a as an educator,
377
00:20:40,791 --> 00:20:43,041
I can learn about this
and I can get better at it as well.
378
00:20:43,041 --> 00:20:45,833
And I can, you know, make an impact there.
379
00:20:45,833 --> 00:20:48,416
I know, as we kind of get into that
second part here, like
380
00:20:48,416 --> 00:20:51,416
designing for impact, visible learning,
that sort of thing.
381
00:20:51,916 --> 00:20:53,750
As you're
designing this stuff for Kognity,
382
00:20:53,750 --> 00:20:56,458
how do you ensure that the content isn't
just engaging?
383
00:20:56,458 --> 00:20:59,000
It's not just some sort of flashy gimmick
that a teachers like,
384
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,250
yeah, but that's just that's
just this tech tool.
385
00:21:01,250 --> 00:21:02,875
I could do the same thing in a book.
386
00:21:02,875 --> 00:21:06,833
How do you ensure it's not just engaging
but also actually effective?
387
00:21:07,791 --> 00:21:10,916
So one of the things we do is
before we dive into the content,
388
00:21:10,916 --> 00:21:13,333
we think about the instructional model,
389
00:21:13,333 --> 00:21:15,791
and the instructional model,
like, pulls together
390
00:21:15,791 --> 00:21:19,916
the pieces that are necessary
to support, students in good learning.
391
00:21:20,375 --> 00:21:23,666
So, on the high school science side,
one of the things we do
392
00:21:23,666 --> 00:21:27,666
is we think about the five model
of instruction, where
393
00:21:27,666 --> 00:21:32,000
we put together components of engagement,
explaining, elaboration.
394
00:21:33,875 --> 00:21:34,750
And we
395
00:21:34,750 --> 00:21:37,750
think about what is the right fit
for the content there.
396
00:21:37,791 --> 00:21:41,250
But I think also, part of designing
for that effective
397
00:21:41,250 --> 00:21:45,416
learning that goes beyond engagement,
because engagement is only one aspect,
398
00:21:45,791 --> 00:21:48,958
is to think about the experiences.
399
00:21:48,958 --> 00:21:54,666
And how can we create experiences
that are engaging but also challenging.
400
00:21:55,250 --> 00:21:59,958
And, one thing we want to consider is
401
00:21:59,958 --> 00:22:04,041
how do we put students into a place of,
productive struggle?
402
00:22:04,583 --> 00:22:08,958
I'm not sure if everybody is familiar
with that term, but it's the idea that,
403
00:22:09,416 --> 00:22:10,208
I'm going to present you
404
00:22:10,208 --> 00:22:13,208
with something that's engaging,
but you don't quite understand yet.
405
00:22:13,583 --> 00:22:17,166
And, it's so challenging that
406
00:22:17,541 --> 00:22:21,416
I'm not able to, like, go to the internet
and, like, look up an answer real quick.
407
00:22:21,750 --> 00:22:26,083
I have to do some work
to figure out the pieces of,
408
00:22:28,250 --> 00:22:28,916
of what I
409
00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:31,916
need to know in order
to understand this thing.
410
00:22:32,125 --> 00:22:34,875
And that's something that
moves them out
411
00:22:34,875 --> 00:22:37,875
of that engagement space
and into the learning space.
412
00:22:37,916 --> 00:22:41,458
So now there are a few things
I need to know in order to understand,
413
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,541
this concept or this engaging idea
that you've presented me.
414
00:22:46,916 --> 00:22:51,958
And with that productive struggle comes
element of reflection,
415
00:22:51,958 --> 00:22:56,250
which we've talked about before,
being great for students, but reflection
416
00:22:56,250 --> 00:22:59,541
in a way that is going to shift
their thinking from like point
417
00:22:59,541 --> 00:23:01,291
A to point B. So,
418
00:23:02,583 --> 00:23:05,041
initially when you see something,
you always have
419
00:23:05,041 --> 00:23:08,041
like an idea of how to explain it.
420
00:23:08,833 --> 00:23:12,541
But is your explanation
really the right explanation?
421
00:23:12,833 --> 00:23:16,125
And so through collecting evidence
and observations
422
00:23:16,583 --> 00:23:20,666
and doing this sort of reflective piece,
a supportive reflection for students,
423
00:23:20,666 --> 00:23:24,875
we get to take in that information
and then apply it back to our,
424
00:23:26,291 --> 00:23:28,750
engaging scenario and think, oh,
425
00:23:28,750 --> 00:23:31,833
well, I had this initial idea,
but now I've collected some evidence,
426
00:23:32,458 --> 00:23:36,750
I have done some observations, and
I don't think my explanation quite fits.
427
00:23:37,875 --> 00:23:39,000
What do I think now?
428
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,375
How can I update my thinking
through reflection? And through that,
429
00:23:44,125 --> 00:23:47,875
what other questions do I have
now that now need to be explored?
430
00:23:48,458 --> 00:23:51,500
So keeping them in that sort of loop of,
431
00:23:53,041 --> 00:23:54,500
I'm interested.
432
00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:55,916
I need to know more.
433
00:23:55,916 --> 00:23:59,083
I found out some things,
but it doesn't quite answer my questions.
434
00:23:59,458 --> 00:24:00,958
Let's get back into it.
435
00:24:00,958 --> 00:24:03,750
And I think that's part of, designing
436
00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:07,125
the instruction that moves
beyond engagement for the students.
437
00:24:07,166 --> 00:24:10,375
The first time that I came across the idea
of, like, the productive struggle
438
00:24:10,375 --> 00:24:13,375
was when I, I remember,
439
00:24:13,375 --> 00:24:16,500
you know, when edtech tools
were kind of first coming out.
440
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:19,583
There was so much like,
there's so much like gimmicky, gimmicky.
441
00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:21,708
This is edutainment.
442
00:24:21,708 --> 00:24:23,708
That was such a big word.
443
00:24:23,708 --> 00:24:25,166
That was coming across a lot.
444
00:24:25,166 --> 00:24:29,458
And it was like, well,
how do we make sure that's not us?
445
00:24:29,458 --> 00:24:36,750
It's like, how do you balance
being engaging but not just entertaining?
446
00:24:36,750 --> 00:24:39,875
And I think that that's a lot
of the really hard work that you guys
447
00:24:39,875 --> 00:24:45,125
have been doing behind the scenes of like,
yeah, we have to pick topics
448
00:24:45,125 --> 00:24:48,958
that are going to get
that initial buy in from students,
449
00:24:48,958 --> 00:24:52,041
but if they don't do anything with it
450
00:24:52,041 --> 00:24:57,750
and they don't think hard about it
and have that struggle like you said,
451
00:24:57,750 --> 00:25:02,166
then it is just edutainment or whatever,
and then there's not
452
00:25:02,166 --> 00:25:03,958
actual learning happening.
453
00:25:03,958 --> 00:25:06,291
So no, I think it's so important.
454
00:25:06,291 --> 00:25:10,166
I think it's also like,
how do we think about engagement?
455
00:25:10,166 --> 00:25:15,458
And if you don't dig deep
into a lot of research literature,
456
00:25:15,875 --> 00:25:19,625
we think of engagement
as like showing up, like doing
457
00:25:19,625 --> 00:25:23,750
those clicks, being present
in a classroom, completing a task.
458
00:25:24,083 --> 00:25:28,083
And there's actually two other modes
of engagement that aren't talked
459
00:25:28,083 --> 00:25:32,000
about as much
in education, outside of research,
460
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,750
which is the cognitive engagement
and the emotional engagement. So,
461
00:25:38,166 --> 00:25:38,750
there's an
462
00:25:38,750 --> 00:25:41,833
there's a need for that
behavioral engagement, like,
463
00:25:41,833 --> 00:25:43,916
you got to have kids
show up to the classroom
464
00:25:43,916 --> 00:25:47,750
or the platform and do those clicks,
but it's how do you connect
465
00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:51,083
to these other two types of engagement
that are important as well.
466
00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:54,833
And that's what creating
like challenging scenarios or,
467
00:25:55,541 --> 00:25:59,583
opportunities to like, really, struggle
with how you understand
468
00:25:59,583 --> 00:26:02,583
our concept that tap into these other two,
469
00:26:02,666 --> 00:26:05,666
types of engagement,
the cognitive and the emotional.
470
00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:06,791
I love it.
471
00:26:06,791 --> 00:26:08,541
As you were talking there,
I had this image
472
00:26:08,541 --> 00:26:11,166
in my head of as a teacher,
you kind of constantly,
473
00:26:11,166 --> 00:26:13,750
for lack of a better term,
mining for like, where's the thing
474
00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:16,791
that's going to get the student
all the way into that?
475
00:26:16,791 --> 00:26:18,291
And I love that productive struggle,
476
00:26:18,291 --> 00:26:20,750
because then I had this image of like,
that's the golden nugget.
477
00:26:20,750 --> 00:26:22,875
That's the thing that like, I want that.
478
00:26:22,875 --> 00:26:24,583
And, you know
479
00:26:24,583 --> 00:26:28,375
when it happens as an educator, it's
that hum in the room that suddenly happens
480
00:26:28,375 --> 00:26:31,375
when the students
are really engaged in the task
481
00:26:31,375 --> 00:26:35,291
that has the right level of challenge,
the right sort of level of stress,
482
00:26:35,500 --> 00:26:39,541
you know, or anxiety like that,
that sort of optimum zone of like,
483
00:26:39,541 --> 00:26:42,458
this is tough, but it's interesting
and I want to figure it out.
484
00:26:42,458 --> 00:26:44,000
And I think about things differently
485
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,000
than I did just before, like everything
you were just saying there.
486
00:26:47,125 --> 00:26:49,791
That's all the metacognitive principles
that we're hoping for.
487
00:26:49,791 --> 00:26:54,166
That's all the like deep learning stuff
that we're hoping for within our classes.
488
00:26:54,166 --> 00:26:56,458
And that's the stuff
that's really meaningful, that
489
00:26:56,458 --> 00:27:00,250
when we talk about the deployment program,
it's like we want it to be meaningful.
490
00:27:00,250 --> 00:27:02,666
We want it to be enjoyable,
we want it to be achievable.
491
00:27:02,666 --> 00:27:05,791
And those things happen
when you have those
492
00:27:06,291 --> 00:27:08,250
those productive struggles
that you're talking about.
493
00:27:08,250 --> 00:27:12,208
So, I just love that that's,
that that's a goal
494
00:27:12,583 --> 00:27:16,708
that that's something that you're trying
to make evident for teachers so that,
495
00:27:17,041 --> 00:27:20,041
you know, as we search and of course,
everything's going to be context specific.
496
00:27:20,291 --> 00:27:23,541
But as we look through those things
you're saying, like, here's
497
00:27:23,875 --> 00:27:27,125
here's one, here's a golden nugget,
go on, play with that a little bit.
498
00:27:27,416 --> 00:27:28,791
I just I think that's awesome.
499
00:27:28,791 --> 00:27:29,041
Yeah.
500
00:27:29,041 --> 00:27:33,750
And I think, one of the ways
I think that shows up in IB specifically
501
00:27:33,750 --> 00:27:37,875
is, sort of those community projects
that students tackle
502
00:27:38,291 --> 00:27:42,708
because they learn a lot of things,
but then they have a real world problem
503
00:27:42,708 --> 00:27:46,666
that they're going to struggle with
and try to apply that knowledge to.
504
00:27:46,666 --> 00:27:49,708
And it's not going to be,
like one size fits all.
505
00:27:50,291 --> 00:27:53,666
Those problems are going to be unique,
and the students are really going
506
00:27:53,666 --> 00:27:57,500
to have to dive into
that to sort of figure out,
507
00:27:58,625 --> 00:28:00,125
as I observe and understand
508
00:28:00,125 --> 00:28:04,041
this problem more,
how how my knowledge fits with that.
509
00:28:04,041 --> 00:28:06,125
And what are the other pieces of evidence
510
00:28:06,125 --> 00:28:09,250
I need to collect in order to
understand that problem and,
511
00:28:09,583 --> 00:28:13,250
and help get to a place where I can do
some sort of action,
512
00:28:13,916 --> 00:28:16,916
to maybe not completely solve
the problem, but,
513
00:28:17,708 --> 00:28:20,458
work towards, like, solving that problem.
514
00:28:20,458 --> 00:28:20,708
Yeah.
515
00:28:20,708 --> 00:28:23,750
And none of that say like specific
worksheet task or something like that.
516
00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:27,000
It's the meaningful
let's let's do something that's important
517
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,000
for our community, for example, or,
you know,
518
00:28:30,916 --> 00:28:33,916
do something that's going to engage
the people around us in a better way.
519
00:28:35,875 --> 00:28:37,458
Are you an IB educator wanting
520
00:28:37,458 --> 00:28:40,791
to improve your practice and needing
just a bit more support getting there?
521
00:28:41,458 --> 00:28:45,000
Ever wanted to learn more about a specific
aspect of the diploma program?
522
00:28:45,291 --> 00:28:49,250
Or just ask a question to an educational
theorist about a specific IB aspect?
523
00:28:49,791 --> 00:28:51,958
IB Unplugged is the place for you.
524
00:28:51,958 --> 00:28:56,458
Simply visit kognity.com/ibunplugged
to submit your question to us,
525
00:28:56,666 --> 00:28:59,916
and have your question explored
in more detail in an upcoming episode.
526
00:29:00,458 --> 00:29:02,000
And now, back to the show.
527
00:29:03,416 --> 00:29:04,708
When we think about
528
00:29:04,708 --> 00:29:08,750
the kind of actual parts of your job,
you've talked about a lot of the different
529
00:29:08,750 --> 00:29:13,750
pieces that you've designed, elements
in the platform, to what degree,
530
00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:16,916
I mean, you know a lot of things.
Melanie.
531
00:29:17,458 --> 00:29:19,375
No. You,
532
00:29:19,375 --> 00:29:23,291
your your research is so relevant
to the product.
533
00:29:23,291 --> 00:29:25,291
I mean, that's why you're here.
534
00:29:25,291 --> 00:29:30,125
How much have you seen
the role of evidence and research actually
535
00:29:30,125 --> 00:29:36,083
play out in designing Kognity’s content,
designing the platform, things like that.
536
00:29:36,083 --> 00:29:40,583
Like, were there when you were listening
to Hattie's episode or when you've read,
537
00:29:40,583 --> 00:29:44,291
obviously you read him before you joined
Kognity, but you've he's come up
538
00:29:44,291 --> 00:29:49,500
with some new stuff too, like what
stands out as like these are practices
539
00:29:49,916 --> 00:29:54,916
specifically, and this is research
specifically that has shaped Kognity?
540
00:29:55,541 --> 00:29:55,833
Yeah.
541
00:29:55,833 --> 00:30:00,541
I think, when we think about,
the things that we design,
542
00:30:00,708 --> 00:30:06,916
we are taking in pieces from
not only like education research,
543
00:30:06,916 --> 00:30:11,291
but psychology research
and also some anthropological research.
544
00:30:11,291 --> 00:30:15,041
That's the,
you know, learning is social aspect. And,
545
00:30:16,583 --> 00:30:19,875
when we
take in all those pieces of research
546
00:30:20,333 --> 00:30:24,416
and we have to design something
to infuse all of those things,
547
00:30:25,625 --> 00:30:27,625
we think about, okay,
548
00:30:27,625 --> 00:30:30,625
we have a learner
and we're going to situate them in this,
549
00:30:30,625 --> 00:30:33,625
digital learning environment. And,
550
00:30:34,458 --> 00:30:37,375
that digital learning environment
is sometimes
551
00:30:37,375 --> 00:30:41,125
going to be orchestrated by the learner
and sometimes orchestrated by the teacher.
552
00:30:41,666 --> 00:30:47,875
And, that's all going to be around
this like content knowledge.
553
00:30:47,875 --> 00:30:49,291
Right?
554
00:30:49,291 --> 00:30:52,375
And so in order for it
555
00:30:52,375 --> 00:30:55,750
to be successful, you have to take
556
00:30:55,750 --> 00:30:59,125
in those pieces of research
and fit them where it's appropriate.
557
00:30:59,375 --> 00:31:03,000
So, when we think about, research,
558
00:31:03,583 --> 00:31:06,958
from education
that tells us specifically, like,
559
00:31:06,958 --> 00:31:10,333
what do teachers need to do
in order to support good learning.
560
00:31:12,250 --> 00:31:14,291
But it's also these elements
of psychology,
561
00:31:14,291 --> 00:31:16,458
like we were just
talking about engagement.
562
00:31:16,458 --> 00:31:19,708
So we also have to think about,
okay, well,
563
00:31:20,250 --> 00:31:22,875
if we're thinking about
all three modes of engagement,
564
00:31:22,875 --> 00:31:25,958
how do we design things on the platform
that support those?
565
00:31:26,458 --> 00:31:29,458
And that's how all of this research
shows up
566
00:31:29,625 --> 00:31:31,083
in the Kognity platform.
567
00:31:32,208 --> 00:31:35,208
Because it's not enough to just say,
568
00:31:35,375 --> 00:31:38,458
like, here's how you do
chemical equations
569
00:31:38,458 --> 00:31:41,458
and, stoichiometry.
570
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:44,500
But how do we tap into,
571
00:31:44,875 --> 00:31:47,666
the behavioral engagement,
the cognitive engagement.
572
00:31:47,666 --> 00:31:49,375
And how do we design that?
573
00:31:49,375 --> 00:31:53,250
And so it shows up in the platform
in many different ways.
574
00:31:53,250 --> 00:31:58,416
And I think, if you look at how content
is presented, for example,
575
00:31:59,583 --> 00:32:03,291
oftentimes
content isn't just like go read this,
576
00:32:03,666 --> 00:32:08,250
it's, it's read an article,
watch a video, do a lab experiment.
577
00:32:09,166 --> 00:32:10,500
Try out this thing.
578
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:13,583
And those are all different ways
we're tapping into those different
579
00:32:13,583 --> 00:32:16,666
research
components of education, psychology
580
00:32:16,750 --> 00:32:18,083
and anthropology.
581
00:32:19,708 --> 00:32:22,375
And also the ways that we give students
582
00:32:22,375 --> 00:32:26,750
opportunities to like,
prove their competency in the platform.
583
00:32:26,875 --> 00:32:31,625
So we have opportunities
where they can do a little reflection.
584
00:32:31,625 --> 00:32:33,416
They can also do a little self-check,
585
00:32:34,375 --> 00:32:35,375
where they get feedback
586
00:32:35,375 --> 00:32:38,375
on like,
do I actually know what I think I know?
587
00:32:39,208 --> 00:32:41,750
And then they also have opportunities
to like practice
588
00:32:41,750 --> 00:32:45,625
assessments or engage in assessments,
which are, feedback on
589
00:32:45,625 --> 00:32:48,708
where they are
in their mastery spectrum of knowledge.
590
00:32:49,625 --> 00:32:52,291
And I think that's
how the research shows up.
591
00:32:52,291 --> 00:32:52,541
Yeah.
592
00:32:52,541 --> 00:32:54,083
You can see where there's
so much intention
593
00:32:54,083 --> 00:32:58,125
behind implementing
good pedagogy into usability,
594
00:32:58,125 --> 00:33:00,708
you know, and both from the teacher
and from the students.
595
00:33:00,708 --> 00:33:04,125
And what I love about what you just said
is, you know, sometimes the learning
596
00:33:04,125 --> 00:33:07,500
is going to be facilitated by the teacher
and sometimes can be facilitated by
597
00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:08,208
the student.
598
00:33:08,208 --> 00:33:11,458
And it kind of leads
us nicely into this next segment.
599
00:33:11,458 --> 00:33:15,583
I guess I want to look into,
you know, inquiry and instruction
600
00:33:15,958 --> 00:33:18,625
and learning design
because, you know, one of the things
601
00:33:18,625 --> 00:33:21,208
we ended up talking about with Hattie,
and actually something that just comes up
602
00:33:21,208 --> 00:33:25,708
in most conversations is this idea of like
the tension between genuine inquiry
603
00:33:25,708 --> 00:33:29,333
and letting somebody discover
something and come across it.
604
00:33:29,333 --> 00:33:31,791
And that sort of explore,
I think, is one of the five,
605
00:33:31,791 --> 00:33:34,958
as you mentioned before, versus
the direct instruction,
606
00:33:34,958 --> 00:33:37,291
which I guess would
be more on that explain area.
607
00:33:38,250 --> 00:33:38,583
How do you
608
00:33:38,583 --> 00:33:41,583
see that kind of playing out
in the learning design itself?
609
00:33:41,583 --> 00:33:44,875
How do we kind of balance or not balance,
but I guess play with that
610
00:33:44,875 --> 00:33:48,000
tension of inquiry versus
direct instruction?
611
00:33:48,708 --> 00:33:48,875
Yeah.
612
00:33:48,875 --> 00:33:53,041
I think, something that Hattie mentioned
is that these two things don't
613
00:33:53,041 --> 00:33:57,750
have to be in conflict with each other
because they both serve a purpose.
614
00:33:57,958 --> 00:34:00,958
They're both good
at doing different things.
615
00:34:01,125 --> 00:34:04,125
And so, I think about,
616
00:34:04,875 --> 00:34:07,875
when we develop learning experiences,
617
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,000
we have to think about what is,
618
00:34:11,208 --> 00:34:13,875
the learning objective of this thing.
619
00:34:13,875 --> 00:34:19,583
Is it to be in line with something
that's a better fit
620
00:34:19,583 --> 00:34:24,291
for direct instruction, or is it something
that's a better fit for inquiry?
621
00:34:24,750 --> 00:34:28,750
So, you know, let's take a simple example
of, of labs,
622
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,000
some, space where you collect observations
and you have evidence
623
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,250
and you come up with questions
after you collect that evidence. And,
624
00:34:38,583 --> 00:34:41,208
that's not really a good place
for direct instruction.
625
00:34:41,208 --> 00:34:42,083
It's not the place
626
00:34:42,083 --> 00:34:46,333
where you tell students like,
okay, do this, do this, do this, do this.
627
00:34:46,333 --> 00:34:49,333
You want students to get into it and,
628
00:34:49,416 --> 00:34:54,625
and and play with those materials and,
you know, not necessarily
629
00:34:54,625 --> 00:34:58,250
make mistakes depending on the lab, but
because it can be a little bit dangerous.
630
00:34:59,083 --> 00:35:01,750
But you do want them to sort of like,
have the boundaries
631
00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:04,833
of playing with different variables
to see these different outcomes.
632
00:35:04,833 --> 00:35:09,875
So then they can, use that to inform
how they understand something.
633
00:35:09,875 --> 00:35:13,458
And, and that's,
a nice place for inquiry to show up.
634
00:35:14,750 --> 00:35:18,625
I think too is, considering that
635
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:24,625
when we're designing those experiences,
are we staying true
636
00:35:24,833 --> 00:35:29,416
to what direct instruction
is and what inquiry is?
637
00:35:31,333 --> 00:35:31,750
A lot of
638
00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:34,833
people think
inquiry is just like free exploration.
639
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,375
Oh, yeah.
We've talked about this, Melanie. Right?
640
00:35:37,375 --> 00:35:40,250
Like the different stages of inquiry.
641
00:35:40,250 --> 00:35:41,625
That's right.
642
00:35:41,625 --> 00:35:45,833
And if we if we go back to, like,
our father of inquiry, John Dewey,
643
00:35:46,583 --> 00:35:50,041
he says inquiry is a cycle
and that cycle starts
644
00:35:50,041 --> 00:35:54,166
with, like, thinking about a problem
so that you
645
00:35:54,333 --> 00:35:56,875
you've observed
something, you've observed a problem,
646
00:35:56,875 --> 00:36:00,333
or you've observed
something that is intriguing to you.
647
00:36:00,791 --> 00:36:04,083
And, that's
actually where the inquiry starts,
648
00:36:04,083 --> 00:36:07,666
not in this kind of free
exploration of something.
649
00:36:08,458 --> 00:36:12,333
But rather thinking about the problem
and thinking about, solutions
650
00:36:12,333 --> 00:36:13,375
to that problem.
651
00:36:13,375 --> 00:36:17,875
And, and that's where you then
pivot towards this,
652
00:36:18,833 --> 00:36:21,458
the exploration of like your hypothesis.
653
00:36:21,458 --> 00:36:22,250
Right?
654
00:36:22,250 --> 00:36:25,500
It doesn't start
with the exploration of the hypothesis.
655
00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:29,041
It starts back with that, problem
observation that guides
656
00:36:29,041 --> 00:36:32,458
you towards what you're going to, explore.
657
00:36:33,416 --> 00:36:35,541
And so I think about when we're
658
00:36:35,541 --> 00:36:39,625
designing these experiences, you can't
just like plop inquiry somewhere.
659
00:36:39,625 --> 00:36:44,208
It has to, you know, be part of this cycle
that started with this problem,
660
00:36:44,541 --> 00:36:48,500
that engage the students with thinking
about trying to figure it out.
661
00:36:50,041 --> 00:36:52,000
And the same with direct instruction.
662
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,250
Direct instruction isn't just
663
00:36:55,250 --> 00:36:58,791
actually like facilitating information
to students.
664
00:36:58,791 --> 00:37:01,791
There's like a way that direct instruction
665
00:37:01,791 --> 00:37:04,791
is engaging with students.
666
00:37:04,916 --> 00:37:08,250
I like to rely on that idea
of the Socratic method.
667
00:37:08,250 --> 00:37:08,541
Right?
668
00:37:08,541 --> 00:37:12,416
That is a form of direct instruction,
but it does involve asking questions
669
00:37:12,833 --> 00:37:16,833
and getting students to say things
that then the teacher can push back
670
00:37:16,833 --> 00:37:19,833
with different questions and,
671
00:37:19,958 --> 00:37:23,000
you know,
just sort of designing the experience
672
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,583
to sort of like be true to,
what direct instruction and inquiry are.
673
00:37:28,833 --> 00:37:29,125
Yeah.
674
00:37:29,125 --> 00:37:33,458
We had one podcast with David Didau
and he was basically saying,
675
00:37:33,458 --> 00:37:36,500
like, you don't all have to hate
direct instruction.
676
00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:40,791
It doesn't like suck by default, which is
really not the way that he said it.
677
00:37:41,791 --> 00:37:43,791
He was a little bit
more eloquent than that.
678
00:37:45,958 --> 00:37:48,000
But I mean, it's exactly that, right?
679
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,208
Like, not all inquiry is like,
680
00:37:52,250 --> 00:37:55,333
free for all experience and not all direct
681
00:37:55,333 --> 00:37:58,666
instruction is just boring or just,
682
00:37:59,666 --> 00:38:03,458
sage on the stage
kind of, experience there.
683
00:38:03,458 --> 00:38:04,458
It's like.
684
00:38:04,458 --> 00:38:08,500
Like, I really like what you're saying
about what are the right times to do,
685
00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:11,875
which type of instruction
and what are the strategies
686
00:38:11,875 --> 00:38:14,875
that you're using
within those realms?
687
00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:18,166
Yeah, how you shaped those experiences
688
00:38:18,166 --> 00:38:22,083
that actually show
if it has that visible impact.
689
00:38:22,166 --> 00:38:22,750
Yeah.
690
00:38:22,750 --> 00:38:27,541
And I think that's something Hattie
mentioned too, is that even doing inquiry,
691
00:38:28,166 --> 00:38:31,791
students
have to have a foundation of information
692
00:38:31,791 --> 00:38:37,250
in order to engage in inquiry
in a really authentic and productive way.
693
00:38:37,708 --> 00:38:41,916
So, you know, if you want
to engage students in some sort of like
694
00:38:41,958 --> 00:38:46,750
science concept, but they don't have
the sort of background knowledge
695
00:38:46,750 --> 00:38:50,750
in order to ask the right questions
or make the right observations,
696
00:38:51,333 --> 00:38:54,083
then you know, you're not staying true to,
697
00:38:55,708 --> 00:38:58,708
what inquiry is asking the students to do.
698
00:38:58,708 --> 00:39:01,500
And that kind of foundational knowledge
699
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:04,166
most likely might come
from direct instruction.
700
00:39:05,375 --> 00:39:08,500
Now I know, obviously
as you design, you know,
701
00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:11,750
the resources with Kognity,
you're thinking about this stuff
702
00:39:12,875 --> 00:39:14,666
on the on the opposite side of it.
703
00:39:14,666 --> 00:39:16,166
You know, I'm I'm the teacher here.
704
00:39:16,166 --> 00:39:19,958
What's the ideal way
that I can be using the platform
705
00:39:19,958 --> 00:39:22,166
for those sort of moments
of structured guidance,
706
00:39:22,166 --> 00:39:25,375
as well as for those moments of student
led exploration,
707
00:39:25,375 --> 00:39:28,375
like when you're putting this together,
what do you think is like,
708
00:39:28,583 --> 00:39:31,583
when the teacher does it like this,
then it meets each of these avenues.
709
00:39:32,875 --> 00:39:35,750
I think the main thing is
that the teachers
710
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:39,208
should always be thinking
that this is not all or nothing.
711
00:39:40,291 --> 00:39:41,625
It's not all platform.
712
00:39:41,625 --> 00:39:43,250
It's not all off platform.
713
00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:48,958
It's this nice, sweet spot of,
blended, platform and teacher time.
714
00:39:49,166 --> 00:39:54,750
So, I think about when a student
approaches
715
00:39:54,750 --> 00:39:59,416
something in the platform, let's say
there's a reading for students to do, that
716
00:39:59,416 --> 00:40:01,916
the teacher is thinking
it doesn't end there.
717
00:40:01,916 --> 00:40:07,041
It's not just that the students,
maybe the teacher do the reading.
718
00:40:07,375 --> 00:40:12,125
It's also,
that the teacher is going to recognize
719
00:40:12,125 --> 00:40:15,166
that we can take that reading
and what's in the reading.
720
00:40:15,416 --> 00:40:18,333
And we can also have a discussion
about it in our classroom.
721
00:40:18,333 --> 00:40:21,583
And so, you know,
the teacher should be thinking about
722
00:40:21,625 --> 00:40:25,666
how do I facilitate a discussion around
this reading that the students just had
723
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,541
that will help them get the most out
of that reading, and also help them
724
00:40:29,875 --> 00:40:33,333
ask the questions that are going to get us
to the next part of,
725
00:40:33,875 --> 00:40:35,375
the learning experience.
726
00:40:36,416 --> 00:40:36,875
And I think
727
00:40:36,875 --> 00:40:40,041
that's
something that is, definitely a struggle.
728
00:40:40,041 --> 00:40:43,041
I see, just like everywhere, is that,
729
00:40:43,458 --> 00:40:45,750
teachers receive a curriculum.
730
00:40:45,750 --> 00:40:51,791
And now we think, like I enact it
in its entirety, and that's all,
731
00:40:52,791 --> 00:40:56,541
but it it's more about thinking
about, like, how do we blend that?
732
00:40:57,208 --> 00:41:00,958
And how do we incorporate
our own learning experiences?
733
00:41:00,958 --> 00:41:04,875
How do we include our own teaching
practice
734
00:41:05,583 --> 00:41:09,208
in addition to the platform
that makes like
735
00:41:09,208 --> 00:41:12,875
a complete picture
of learning, for the student.
736
00:41:13,708 --> 00:41:16,708
Not just like this,
sort of like one sided experience.
737
00:41:17,333 --> 00:41:18,041
Yeah. What I'm hearing
738
00:41:18,041 --> 00:41:21,833
there is a lot of intention
to be creative as a teacher as well.
739
00:41:21,833 --> 00:41:26,541
You know, like use this as the baseline,
but don't discount your own experiences.
740
00:41:26,541 --> 00:41:29,666
Don't discount
what you can bring contextually as well.
741
00:41:29,666 --> 00:41:31,958
And I know for myself,
whenever I'm looking at it
742
00:41:31,958 --> 00:41:34,041
and I kind of think, okay,
these are the main learning
743
00:41:34,041 --> 00:41:35,458
principles, this stuff
I want to go through.
744
00:41:35,458 --> 00:41:39,250
And yes, I'll have some students read
a bit of the Kognity work ahead of time,
745
00:41:40,125 --> 00:41:42,916
but then even today I was like, oh,
I could design something
746
00:41:42,916 --> 00:41:46,791
about that now, because in our context,
these things are starting to bloom.
747
00:41:46,791 --> 00:41:48,708
Like our these plants are going.
748
00:41:48,708 --> 00:41:51,083
So I can easily bring them out
and we can start playing with those.
749
00:41:51,083 --> 00:41:55,541
And yeah,
so I just see the freedom to be creative.
750
00:41:55,541 --> 00:41:58,375
And it sounds like that
you're intentionally designing for.
751
00:41:58,375 --> 00:41:58,791
Yeah.
752
00:41:58,791 --> 00:42:02,458
And also thinking
about the student experiences.
753
00:42:04,125 --> 00:42:05,666
I was working with a
754
00:42:05,666 --> 00:42:09,166
teacher in New York recently
and they were saying,
755
00:42:10,041 --> 00:42:13,541
we have a biology unit
that, talks about mountain lions.
756
00:42:14,125 --> 00:42:18,166
And then, a student came to them
with an article that was like, hey,
757
00:42:18,916 --> 00:42:22,625
did you see this article where,
they found a mountain lion, like,
758
00:42:22,625 --> 00:42:27,041
roaming around Buffalo, New York?
And the teacher was like, say what?
759
00:42:27,375 --> 00:42:31,000
And so it like, you know, it was like,
that's not on the platform.
760
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,000
This article about, Buffalo
761
00:42:34,166 --> 00:42:35,416
mountain lions.
762
00:42:35,416 --> 00:42:39,333
But it's this opportunity for you
to take sort of this information
763
00:42:39,333 --> 00:42:43,416
from the platform and apply it
to this new experience that the student
764
00:42:43,416 --> 00:42:47,458
is bringing into the classroom
and expanding on that. Wow.
765
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,000
We have mountain lions and buffalo, like,
never would have thought that.
766
00:42:51,125 --> 00:42:55,916
And, that opens up like,
what other species do you think
767
00:42:55,916 --> 00:42:59,833
are roaming around the, you know, New York
that we haven't considered?
768
00:42:59,833 --> 00:43:04,041
And how do the principles
of what we learned here in this unit apply
769
00:43:04,083 --> 00:43:07,666
to understanding, like how these animals
show up in our spaces?
770
00:43:08,541 --> 00:43:09,833
So I think that's part of it, too.
771
00:43:12,458 --> 00:43:15,833
I think
that you are talking a lot about like,
772
00:43:15,833 --> 00:43:19,125
where does the where did the teacher
in the platform work together?
773
00:43:19,125 --> 00:43:22,916
And I think that one element
that stands out also for me
774
00:43:22,916 --> 00:43:27,625
is in the scaffolding and I
but I think that it's in a lot of ways
775
00:43:27,625 --> 00:43:30,041
that's where the teacher
can really shine through,
776
00:43:30,041 --> 00:43:31,708
because they know their students
a lot more.
777
00:43:31,708 --> 00:43:34,125
They know where the scaffolding is needed.
778
00:43:34,125 --> 00:43:39,500
But also, I think it's, a responsibility
of any curriculum and any edtech tool
779
00:43:39,625 --> 00:43:44,666
to also effectively scaffold
for developing these resources
780
00:43:44,666 --> 00:43:47,041
and developing
these learning experiences.
781
00:43:48,041 --> 00:43:50,250
Yeah,
what does it look like when it's done
782
00:43:50,250 --> 00:43:53,875
effectively in the platform
to best support teachers?
783
00:43:54,083 --> 00:43:57,208
When you think about scaffolding,
you're thinking about this,
784
00:43:59,125 --> 00:44:02,666
sort of support
that you're giving students before
785
00:44:02,666 --> 00:44:07,291
they're able to act in these
ideal ways in the classroom.
786
00:44:08,333 --> 00:44:09,500
And so
787
00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:14,125
sometimes that scaffolding is considering
what's the prior knowledge
788
00:44:14,125 --> 00:44:17,541
that students should have before
they get to the starting point,
789
00:44:18,416 --> 00:44:20,375
so that they can move forward?
790
00:44:20,375 --> 00:44:24,958
And we know from, you know,
being in classrooms that not all students
791
00:44:24,958 --> 00:44:29,125
enter the classroom with the same set
of prior knowledge for many reasons.
792
00:44:29,625 --> 00:44:32,333
And so when we design things
793
00:44:32,333 --> 00:44:35,791
and learning experiences on the platform,
we have to consider,
794
00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:40,041
how do we make sure that students
have that prior knowledge so that they
795
00:44:40,208 --> 00:44:44,041
have the level footing to even engage
with this learning experience?
796
00:44:44,333 --> 00:44:48,750
Sometimes that looks like,
informing the teacher, here's the prior
797
00:44:48,750 --> 00:44:52,875
knowledge students need before they start
so that they can do something before,
798
00:44:53,708 --> 00:44:58,458
to get students to that level,
to be ready to engage in an idea.
799
00:44:59,958 --> 00:45:01,375
But it can also look like
800
00:45:01,375 --> 00:45:04,541
little seeds of information
that we put along the way,
801
00:45:05,375 --> 00:45:07,583
that are giving students that prior
802
00:45:07,583 --> 00:45:10,583
knowledge, like,
almost like a reminder of like,
803
00:45:10,708 --> 00:45:12,458
you remember, like
804
00:45:12,458 --> 00:45:15,291
you remember about atoms
and their subatomic particles.
805
00:45:15,291 --> 00:45:16,958
You remember about this.
806
00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:21,875
And I think that's one way of,
thinking about scaffolding.
807
00:45:21,875 --> 00:45:24,625
And the idea is that scaffolding
is impermanent.
808
00:45:24,625 --> 00:45:28,250
So scaffolding
is meant to fade away over time.
809
00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:31,875
And, and so as we progress through,
810
00:45:32,791 --> 00:45:36,833
different units and different topics,
we are intentionally,
811
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:40,541
sort of taking those pieces away
because students are,
812
00:45:41,291 --> 00:45:44,375
gaining more and more mastery,
as they move through
813
00:45:44,458 --> 00:45:47,541
and so then we are presenting different
814
00:45:47,541 --> 00:45:50,583
challenges, to students as we progress.
815
00:45:50,583 --> 00:45:54,875
And, but, but we sort of
put that scaffolding in place
816
00:45:55,041 --> 00:45:57,875
when they get to that challenge
so that they're ready to do it.
817
00:45:57,875 --> 00:46:02,708
I think another thing to think about, back
to thinking about what should teachers
818
00:46:02,708 --> 00:46:06,750
be doing with Kognity in the classroom
is you could also,
819
00:46:07,166 --> 00:46:10,666
think about Kognity
as a scaffolding tool. So,
820
00:46:12,625 --> 00:46:13,375
you know, maybe
821
00:46:13,375 --> 00:46:16,375
you have students
do something on the platform
822
00:46:16,375 --> 00:46:19,583
that is a scaffold to prepare them
for something
823
00:46:19,583 --> 00:46:21,208
you want to do,
824
00:46:22,750 --> 00:46:23,791
in the classroom
825
00:46:23,791 --> 00:46:26,791
directly, just,
you and the students as a teacher,
826
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,708
or maybe something you do
in the classroom as a scaffold
827
00:46:29,708 --> 00:46:33,083
for something that they are meant to do
on the platform, like an activity.
828
00:46:33,583 --> 00:46:36,833
And I think it's, you know,
you want to think about
829
00:46:36,833 --> 00:46:41,208
scaffolding in multiple ways,
how do these tools support each other,
830
00:46:41,666 --> 00:46:44,666
but also how does the tool itself
support students.
831
00:46:45,416 --> 00:46:46,625
That leads really nicely.
832
00:46:46,625 --> 00:46:49,958
I want to kind of get into
maybe this last area here
833
00:46:49,958 --> 00:46:55,208
where we're just talking about edtech,
AI, future of learning, that sort of stuff.
834
00:46:55,208 --> 00:46:58,958
And what you're mentioning there,
I think is really useful for any
835
00:46:58,958 --> 00:46:59,625
Kognity user.
836
00:46:59,625 --> 00:47:02,291
I guess anybody's really using
edtech platforms in general,
837
00:47:02,291 --> 00:47:06,166
not necessarily Kognity, but let's
talk specifically with Kognity.
838
00:47:06,208 --> 00:47:10,041
How can these platforms ensure
that that technology enhances
839
00:47:10,041 --> 00:47:11,750
and doesn't just replace good pedagogy?
840
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:12,750
And I guess, you know,
841
00:47:12,750 --> 00:47:16,500
you've given a great example here with,
you know, maybe you use the platform
842
00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:19,916
as a scaffolding to lead something
you do in the classroom or vice versa.
843
00:47:20,333 --> 00:47:24,750
Are there maybe two or other three
great examples of things that you think,
844
00:47:24,750 --> 00:47:25,916
like, teachers should be doing this
845
00:47:25,916 --> 00:47:29,250
with that platform so that you're
you're enhancing great pedagogy?
846
00:47:30,041 --> 00:47:36,958
When you are doing things
that require any kind of edtech,
847
00:47:37,958 --> 00:47:39,916
are you doing it for edtech sake
848
00:47:39,916 --> 00:47:42,916
or are you doing it because the edtech,
849
00:47:43,916 --> 00:47:46,958
supports
the thing that I want students to do,
850
00:47:46,958 --> 00:47:50,125
or the learning objectives
that I have for students?
851
00:47:51,541 --> 00:47:54,625
Think back to like the OG EdTech was like,
852
00:47:54,833 --> 00:47:57,625
PowerPoint slides, right?
853
00:47:57,625 --> 00:48:02,250
Where teachers like using PowerPoint
slides, just use PowerPoint.
854
00:48:02,250 --> 00:48:05,333
It's like, oh, I just took my notes
and now they're on PowerPoint.
855
00:48:05,791 --> 00:48:09,416
Or were they developing slide decks that,
856
00:48:10,541 --> 00:48:13,916
you know, would disseminate information
in a way that,
857
00:48:15,208 --> 00:48:19,083
would create engaging opportunities
for students, which is something
858
00:48:19,083 --> 00:48:23,333
that slide decks could do
if you didn't just put like a wall of text
859
00:48:23,666 --> 00:48:26,875
on a slide and call it,
like using technology.
860
00:48:28,375 --> 00:48:30,583
I'm just thinking about overhead
projectors right now.
861
00:48:30,583 --> 00:48:31,083
I'm not going to lie.
862
00:48:32,833 --> 00:48:34,000
Exactly.
863
00:48:34,791 --> 00:48:37,916
I know that, one of the last classrooms
I worked in,
864
00:48:38,791 --> 00:48:41,750
we were very fortunate that we had,
865
00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:44,333
been given tons of money to do, like,
upgrades.
866
00:48:44,333 --> 00:48:48,833
And I had a fancy lab
where I had, like a dedicated lab space,
867
00:48:48,833 --> 00:48:53,083
a dedicated lecture space, and my lecture
space came with a smartboard.
868
00:48:53,583 --> 00:48:56,416
And, the smartboard is like this
interactive thing.
869
00:48:56,416 --> 00:48:58,000
You could have students interact with it.
870
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:02,083
It came with like student response systems
where you could put up these
871
00:49:02,083 --> 00:49:03,500
like engaging questions
872
00:49:03,500 --> 00:49:06,500
and like in real time, get feedback
like what students know.
873
00:49:06,958 --> 00:49:10,750
And, you know, I saw most of my colleagues
874
00:49:10,750 --> 00:49:13,958
just like, look at this
fancy new PowerPoint presenter.
875
00:49:13,958 --> 00:49:15,666
And I was like, oh.
876
00:49:16,333 --> 00:49:18,750
And then all it is actually
is a projector.
877
00:49:18,958 --> 00:49:21,041
Yeah, it is just a projector.
878
00:49:21,041 --> 00:49:22,708
Look at this bigger projector.
879
00:49:25,250 --> 00:49:27,208
So, you know, I think about that.
880
00:49:27,208 --> 00:49:31,333
It's like, what is the thing
that edtech supports best for students
881
00:49:32,416 --> 00:49:35,416
and enacting it in those ways. And,
882
00:49:36,083 --> 00:49:38,916
you know, one great example is that,
883
00:49:38,916 --> 00:49:41,708
edtech can be this great, like,
884
00:49:41,708 --> 00:49:45,666
support for students
who need support in either
885
00:49:45,666 --> 00:49:50,125
direction in terms of like, going slower
or going a little bit faster.
886
00:49:50,125 --> 00:49:50,916
Right?
887
00:49:50,916 --> 00:49:54,208
If if you're one of those students,
you could take your time to go through
888
00:49:54,208 --> 00:49:58,625
the material that's on the platform,
or if you're very fast at it,
889
00:49:58,625 --> 00:50:01,625
you can go through the platform
like super fast.
890
00:50:02,666 --> 00:50:04,666
And that's a great thing
891
00:50:04,666 --> 00:50:08,458
that an edtech product can do that
a teacher can't do.
892
00:50:08,458 --> 00:50:10,958
I can't both be fast and slow
at the same time.
893
00:50:10,958 --> 00:50:12,916
I can only go the speed that I'm going.
894
00:50:14,916 --> 00:50:17,458
And I think like there are tools
that are evolving,
895
00:50:17,458 --> 00:50:20,625
especially in the like, student feedback
896
00:50:20,625 --> 00:50:23,625
realm where we're thinking about,
897
00:50:23,625 --> 00:50:28,500
when a student answers a question,
what can edtech tools do that
898
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:32,000
can look through their response to that
and give some real time
899
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,000
feedback to a student that says,
900
00:50:35,125 --> 00:50:37,958
great, you did excellent
901
00:50:37,958 --> 00:50:41,833
in understanding this concept,
but you kind of missed the mark here.
902
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:43,875
And here's some things you should do.
903
00:50:43,875 --> 00:50:48,375
Like to enhance your understanding
and also give that feedback to the teacher
904
00:50:48,375 --> 00:50:52,500
to say, hey, all your students just took
this test and I noticed
905
00:50:52,500 --> 00:50:56,541
they all have this common misconception
that a teaching opportunity
906
00:50:56,541 --> 00:51:01,541
that says I, as a teacher, need to adjust
my instruction to account for this.
907
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:06,458
So and that's something
that, a teacher can do, but it takes time.
908
00:51:06,458 --> 00:51:09,833
But, you know, leaning on the edtech tools
to, to do that
909
00:51:09,833 --> 00:51:12,916
kind of work for the teacher
so that the teacher can focus on
910
00:51:13,166 --> 00:51:16,750
what they do best,
which is enacting those, like practices
911
00:51:16,750 --> 00:51:19,750
that can't be done on a platform
like a discussion.
912
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:21,000
Nice.
913
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,458
So keep the learning objective.
914
00:51:22,458 --> 00:51:26,416
The main point don't just do the
edtech thing because it's flashy, right?
915
00:51:26,416 --> 00:51:27,375
Yeah.
916
00:51:27,375 --> 00:51:29,791
Recognize the differentiation ability
there.
917
00:51:29,791 --> 00:51:32,250
And the ability to be kind of fast
and slow at the same time,
918
00:51:32,250 --> 00:51:34,958
or allow students to engage
the way they want,
919
00:51:34,958 --> 00:51:37,375
scaffold when necessary,
and then also take advantage,
920
00:51:37,375 --> 00:51:40,541
I guess, of the
when you get a summary or here's
921
00:51:40,541 --> 00:51:42,000
what kids know
and here's what they don't know,
922
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,041
oh, you need to focus in on this area,
that area that kind of takes off.
923
00:51:45,083 --> 00:51:48,166
It offloads a little bit of that
load for us as well.
924
00:51:48,541 --> 00:51:50,083
Yeah. Good.
925
00:51:50,083 --> 00:51:54,416
Well Melanie, this has been so fun
to chat with you about all of this.
926
00:51:54,416 --> 00:51:56,541
I think it's so interesting.
927
00:51:56,541 --> 00:51:59,958
I mean, it's obviously interesting
for me, I work here. But, it's
928
00:51:59,958 --> 00:52:04,416
so I think it's important for people
to be able to understand
929
00:52:04,416 --> 00:52:09,166
how things are made to better know
how to use them and to, you know,
930
00:52:09,166 --> 00:52:12,916
really understand the intentionality
behind the choices that are made.
931
00:52:13,166 --> 00:52:18,666
And that's what sets a product up to be
valuable for teachers and for students.
932
00:52:18,666 --> 00:52:23,041
And I think you've given a lot of great,
insight into the behind the scenes,
933
00:52:23,041 --> 00:52:26,416
why things are the way they are,
but also a lot of ideas for
934
00:52:26,791 --> 00:52:29,625
how to use Kognity,
how to use edtech products in general.
935
00:52:29,625 --> 00:52:34,708
And yeah, just a bit more of that kind
of practical dive into a lot of the ideas
936
00:52:34,708 --> 00:52:37,708
that we talked about with,
John Hattie in the episode before.
937
00:52:37,916 --> 00:52:40,666
So thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
938
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,291
IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast hosted
by John Patton and Courtney Marline
939
00:52:45,291 --> 00:52:47,208
and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
940
00:52:47,208 --> 00:52:50,833
Be sure to subscribe or follow
and share with your fellow IB educators.
941
00:52:51,083 --> 00:52:54,375
If you'd like to submit a topic, request,
or a question, please do so
942
00:52:54,375 --> 00:52:57,083
on kognity.com/ibunplugged.
943
00:52:57,208 --> 00:52:58,791
Let's keep the conversation going
944
00:52:58,791 --> 00:53:02,250
and support each other in teaching
with confidence, creativity, and joy.
945
00:53:02,583 --> 00:53:03,416
See you next time.
