Headtorch Wellbeing Hour Tara Ferguson
Amy: [00:00:00] This is the Head Torch podcast. Welcome. Our mission to create a mentally healthy culture at work, keeping the conversations alive. Our podcasts bring you great presenters and stimulating discussion on mental health and wellbeing in the workplace. Enjoy.
Welcome everybody to the Headtorch Wellbeing Hour with me, Amy McDonald.
Angus: And me Angus Robinson.
We'll introduce our guest, Tara Ferguson in a few moments, a heads up that we are recording this and you will be able to listen to it on the podcast channels such as Spotify. Please do follow us there, it does make a difference and we do appreciate it.
At Headtorch, we work with organizations to develop and maintain mentally healthy cultures. The Wellbeing Hour is an important extension of our work. I'll be back in a little while to field some of your questions to our guest. Amy.
Amy: And we look forward to, those thoughts and questions that you put to us, for those of you who are [00:01:00] joining us, live today, And before then, I of course will be asking our guest some questions myself. And those questions will include things like how would you describe the link between cancer and mental health? How can continuing to work throughout treatment actually be good for you? And in your opinion, what's missing from work for people living with cancer and going through treatment?
Today's session is called Cancer and Work When Your Only Choice is to move forward.
And of course, as Angus said, we are delighted to have the amazing Tara Ferguson with us here today, and Tara we'll hear your story shortly.
But before we go any further, let me just share the question that you are posing to all of our guests here today, which is, What can your organization do to support employees with cancer better? [00:02:00] What can your organization do to support employees with cancer better? So please do add your thoughts to that question, which will be popped into the chat.
If you could add your thoughts to the chat, we'll pick up on those and any other questions, comments you have, as Tara and I go into conversation. So let me introduce
Tara to you more formally, if you like. So in a career spanning over 20 years, Tara began work at Unilever. She then went on to work at Leonardo and at PepsiCo as the HR manager at their Quaker Oats factory, and there she also trained as a coach.
And she was seconded as their UK Wellbeing Manager, and it was in this capacity that, Angus and I first met Tara when PepsiCo trialed our very first online program. And since then, we've continued to build both our [00:03:00] working relationship and our friendship with you, Tara.
Tara then went on to be associate director people with a biotech startup company called Exscientia, and in this role she launched the company's first mental wellbeing strategy. And we're delighted to say that once again, she brought us in to work with both our senior team there and the people leaders.
In recent years, Tara was diagnosed with cancer, and this, of course, has taken her on a whole new journey and we're gonna hear more about that today. Tara, it's amazing to have you with us today. Please introduce yourself with your mystery object.
Tara: Thank you Amy. and yeah, good afternoon everyone, it's a real pleasure to be here. As Amy said, we go back many years. so it's lovely to be doing this together today. So my mystery object, it's actually a sticker that is on my laptop, so is, it's down here, which isn't very useful to [00:04:00] share with you.
But I have a spare one, so I thought I would show you the spare one. So this is my mystery object here, and this sticker, for those of you who are maybe keen skiers, you would know that that is, typically the sign you would see on a black run, at a ski resort, and it is indeed a black run called Rhodos in Montgenevre. Myself and my, husband and my daughter went skiing in January this year and I'd never skied a black run before. They were off doing all sorts of things from day one and I was in lessons, trying to learn to be a better ski. Skier. And by the final day of the lessons, uh, the teacher decided that we were ready to do a black run. So very slowly, very gingerly, a group of about six of us made our way down this black run and felt hugely, proud of ourselves at the end when we, uh, when we got to the bottom. And in the afternoon I was skiing by myself, and decided to give myself a bit of a challenge. So I went back to the top of this black run and I stood there for quite a while, debating do [00:05:00] I go down for a second time on my own without my teacher. And uh, watched a few people go past, and thought, right, I'm gonna do this. So I did it. the, just the sense of achievement for me was, was huge. and, the reason that I've put the sticker on my laptop is because it's a reminder to me every day, that I can do hard things. I can kind of put myself out there out of my comfort zone. and it just gives me a bit of encouragement, every day when I see it.
Amy: Amazing. Wow. Fantastic. Thank you for sharing that great story, Tara. So can you describe more that sort of sense of achievement of doing that black run all by yourself?
Tara: Yeah, I'm someone that I quite often talk to myself, if I'm doing hard things. And just that sense of making my way down slowly in my own time I felt like I was in control. Uh, Every so often I'd look back up, which is, for anyone that skis, that's probably the hardest bit is when you're looking directly up or directly down, at [00:06:00] what you've done. And yeah, just getting to the end, I just got a buzz, and just, thought, you know what, I can do hard things. And there's a book by Glennon Doyle, if anyone knows it, that's of that name as well. And just really, empowering, I suppose, feeling of independence, which is something that I was lacking over the last couple of years, feeling that I can kind of go out there on my own. and yeah, obviously I had just started my new business, so it, it very much helped, my mindset of. I can do something that that's, very difficult, if I put my mind to it.
Amy: Fabulous. But there's also something in there isn't there about actually, rather than looking up or looking down, there's something very much about being in the moment. Just being in that spot where you are and how that helps us to maintain that sense of calm, despite the terror around us.
Tara: Yeah, definitely. And I was, I mean, my daughter did the black run in front of me later and she just goes just kind of pretty much straight down, whereas I was never at any point [00:07:00] really straight down. I was very much just taking it one turn at a time and looking forward and, and looking towards the trees on the other side of the run. But yeah, you're right. It, it's very much like anything. If we stay kinda mindful and in the present moment,
then that can really help keep us calm and then we see the progress that we can make at
the end.
Amy: Wonderful. And just to remind folks here, the, the book's called
Tara: think It's called, you Can Do Hard Things by Glennon Doyle.
Amy:
Tara: it's a book I read a few years ago, but yeah, it stuck with me.
Amy: Wonderful. Thank you, Tara. So you started your career at Unilever, in the Bird's Eye Factory, no less in Suffolk. Other than fish fingers, tell us, how did you end up joining their grad scheme?
Tara: Yeah, so I, I'm laughing because in the guest today we've got Ian and Julie who I met at that factory. and Ian was the ops manager for that factory and he's shaking his head because he didn't make fish fingers. It was chicken fingers and potato waffles and peas and [00:08:00] burgers. But yeah, I, I did my degree in Psychology and I decided before I went to uni that I wanted to work in HR and I was always just very much kind of, once I've decided to do something, just straightforward. Follow that path. And, Unilever was was an organization that I could identify with. I like kind of being able to understand what the organization does, and also to feel a sense of pride when you tell your friends and your family. I would bore them to tears with the special machinery in the factories and talking about how their peas came to being and to getting into their little bags in their freezers. And yeah, so being able to see the brand was really important to me. and so I went through the assessment for the grad scheme with them, was successful and started off, as a gosh, how old was I? 20-year-old. so I was young for, for finishing uni. 20-year-old. Started off in, in Lowestoft, in the most easterly point in the uk.
Amy: Wow. And what would you say were your [00:09:00] top sort of learning points there?
Tara: I would say probably, just be true to yourself. So I had an incredible manager, a man called Derek Herbert, who was the inspiration for my career I think. He sadly passed away, a couple of years afterwards, and I was actually offered his role, at that point to, replace him, which was an incredibly difficult thing to do at the age of 22. But but yeah, my learnings were just about just be yourself. And I used to get terrified talking to like the trade union reps, and just thinking, oh my goodness, they're just gonna eat me alive. And actually 20 odd years later, I'm still in touch with one of them. and I think that's because I just am myself. I'm me and I'm not trying to be anyone else. And just realizing that everyone that you work with is a human being at the end of the day. Doesn't matter, kind of how old you are, what experience you've got.If you're there to do a job and and you can work together, then it kind of tends to work out.
Amy: Yeah. Well it sounds like the, the black [00:10:00] run that you faced recently, you've been facing quite a few of them and just kind of head on.
Tara: Yeah. Yeah.
Amy: Since the year dot right. Can you give just a few descriptive words as to what made that manager so good?
Tara: He was very softly spoken, he was a Brummie, and he just stayed calm. That was probably one thing that I really remember him for. He had a good sense of humor, so he was able to have a laugh, um, and he just, he really cared about people. he was the employee relations manager and had some really difficult conversations to do and to have and working through lots of really difficult situations. But he just stayed calm and, treated people with utmost respect throughout.
Amy: Lovely. The word cared really jumped out at me there. That's, that's all we need really, isn't it? We just need to feel that we're cared for and then we're much more likely to [00:11:00] feel, yeah. Feel, feel that we can be our best, I suppose. . because of that support around us, that someone's got our back. Great. So in your role as, as UK wellbeing manager at, at PepsiCo, apart from obviously meeting Angus and myself, you know, what did you enjoy most about that role
Tara: That was obviously the highlight, Amy.
Amy:
Obviously other than that.
Tara: Other than that, it was interesting actually. So I had had some experience of anxiety in my early twenties before I went into this role, and I had kept it from, my kind of colleagues and manager, at Pepsi. Mainly because, on one of my first days, in role in Pepsi, the manager that I had in my HR role, made a kind of flippant comment about someone who was off sick with, with poor mental health, and made a bit of a comment, a bit of a kind of cynical aside about this woman who was off, kind of saying he wasn't sure how genuine she was. And at that point I thought, goodness, I'm not gonna share [00:12:00] my own feelings here, and that just completely stopped me from being able to, I guess to some extent be my authentic self. And then when I was successful in getting the secondment, to, to cover, the mat leave for the UK Wellbeing Manager, I just had this sense of I can't do this authentically if I don't talk about my own experience. So before I even started the role, I spoke to my boss and I said, look, I just wanna share this with you, because I feel like it's something I, I would like to share. This is why I haven't shared it so far, but actually doing this role, it's really important to me to be authentic. So, that was a huge kind of, step forward, I think for me to say, actually this is me. And like it or not, it's part of me.
And then that year, what I loved was, just the enthusiasm with which people, at all the different sites across the uk were wanting to make a difference. and at Pepsi our strategy was about, mental wellbeing, it was physical wellbeing. [00:13:00] At that time there was smoking cessation, there was diet and nutrition, and physical exercise. So it was a kind of multi, multi pillared approach. but without doubt, the mental health bit was the kind of focus. And we did lots of activities as well as the Headtorch thing. We did time to talk day we did mental health road shows, those kind of things. And for me the biggest impact was, was seeing people start to talk about mental health. And this was. I think this was 20, 2014, 2015, like that. So this was 10 years ago. I now look back and see how far we've come, which is amazing, but at that point there was still very much a stigma around mental health. So, yeah, that was the highlight for me was just feeling like I'd made a, made an impact in that area.
Amy: Yeah, definitely. What a shift, a personal shift it sounds like, from not being able to talk about it and, you know, that impact of what somebody says. And how it can shut someone down, you know, it's [00:14:00] huge for you talking about your own experiences, but actually heading up the program within a very large multinational. It's just, it's just amazing, so really fantastic. And then you return to the fabulous Quaker Oats factory, here in Bonnie Scotland, and you took up the role of, wait for it folks, the lead, lean, leadership coach.
Later of course you moved to, to Exscientia and, and again, you shifted the dial there, didn't you, in in terms of workplace mental health. And then in the summer of 2023, everything changed, when you received the news that no one wants to hear, and you were diagnosed with cancer. How would you describe the link then between cancer and, and mental health?
Tara: I guess the action that I took that probably best sums up that link, was along with, obviously needing my kind of medical care and my physical care. [00:15:00] I immediately asked for a therapist, for a mental health therapist. Pretty much, I think it was probably a week after I was diagnosed. So I recognized that over the years I had struggled at times with anxiety, with depression. I was on antidepressants, I still am on antidepressants. and just knew that I was gonna need some help with my mental health through this. So,yeah, I was diagnosed with breast cancer, I knew that the path aheadwas uncertain. I knew that the prognosis looked good,I had confidence that everything would be okay physically, but I also knew that the impact that it had the potential to have on my mental health. I was fortunate I have medical insurance and so was able to speak to my contact at my insurer and say, please, can I get a referral to, to see somebody?
So sorry. I was just thinking it's that, you know, from what we've heard about your, your sort of personal journey to date, it's actually [00:16:00] about, you know, it's, it sounds like know thyself, isn't it? You, you knew that actually, in order to safeguard and support yourself through this, the first thing you need to do is support your own mental health and be also open and honest about that, not only with yourself, but with your place of work, right?
Absolutely. and, and I talked to my place of work. So because I'd been working on the mental wellbeing strategy, I'd always been really open about my own experiences. My daughter as well, had quite bad anxiety that was built up through Covid, and became kind of very much a kind of health anxiety. And actually in that summer of 23, she was just coming out of the end of a series of therapy sessions and was doing really well, and, and is now, yeah, doing fantastic. But I knew that the impact on her as well, was, yeah, she might feel better now, but suddenly her [00:17:00] mom's got cancer and, and that's a huge deal to any child, let alone one that has just had this kind of quite big health anxiety. So all of that,uh, was playing in my mind and yeah, you're absolutely right. at no point did I think, I, I need to be careful about talking about this at work. My manager was incredible throughout the whole process, always asking me what I needed and there for me throughout, and my mental health was just a part of that. So just as I have my surgeon, I have my oncologist, I have my breast cancer nurse specialist. I also have my therapist and I still do to this day. So I'm still seeing somebody every couple of weeks, to support me in my mental health.
Amy: Great. How would you describe the attributes of your manager at that time?
Tara: So he he hates me talking about him like this, but he deserves it. So Chris, if you're listening or if anyone knows Chris, then absolutely he deserves the kudos The day I [00:18:00] told him about my diagnosis, he knew that there was a possibility because we were waiting for test results. So he knew, that it was, it was a possibility. I spoke to him and he just immediately put things into action. So it wasn't just empty words. He wasn't saying, oh, Tara, I'm so sorry, what can I do to help or let me know if there's anything I can do to help. So at the time I was business partnering two of our exec, it was quite a, a busy time, and he just immediately said, look, should I take this part off you? And if I'd said no, he would've respected that, absolutely, but the fact that he offered and I didn't have to ask, made such a difference, and it effectively took 50% of my role away, overnight. And I said, yes, please. And and so he did that, and then there was a bit of a period of time where I had lots of appointments, but we were kind of working through what my treatment plan would be, so I continued to business partner the other exec. And then the time came when I had surgery and I knew I was gonna be facing chemo, , we [00:19:00] said right, the time's right now to, to take the rest of that role off me. So I think yeah, his attributes would just be about action focused, but also person focused. So at no point saying here's the rule book and this is what you need to do. It was very much kind of what did I need and suggesting actions to ease things from a work point of view.
Amy: Yeah. And so you had great support from him. Sounds like he was tuning into, what was best for you as opposed to what was best for him or others. Yeah. The wider network of colleagues, what was the reaction?
Tara: They were all, very similar, just incredible. I think some of that might have been the type of business. So it was a drug discovery business, with a focus on oncology. So although quite a few steps removed from the treatment that I was facing, there was definitely a sense of actually what we do as a business is about saving lives. It's about improving lives, it's [00:20:00] about finding drugs that are gonna make a difference. And so I do think there was an element of, there's a lot of people who had specialisms in oncology, who understood the kind of medication side of things, the treatment side of things. So,yeah, without exception, everyone was very, very supportive. I remember messaging somebody during treatment actually, who'd had quite a big change in, in their role. and I sent them a message just to say like, how are you doing? Looks like you've
got quite a lot on your plate at the moment. And and I remember him coming back to me saying, yeah, absolutely. But all you need to do is focus on you. Just take your time, just focus on you, focus on getting better. And so to see that from very senior people in the organization, and pretty much everyone followed suit.
Amy: Yeah. How, how, heartwarming and, and also how lovely that, you know there you were in the thick of it and you're reaching out to others. Showing your kindness. Very Tara. Very Tara. And other [00:21:00] things you did to support yourself, You're a big blogger, what was the motivation for writing the blogs that you did throughout your treatment?
Tara: Yeah, so I, I posted on LinkedIn and I posted on Facebook and Instagram and particularly on the LinkedIn site. The first post that I posted, I thought at that point was just be a little bit of a "Hi. I've been diagnosed with cancer. I'm gonna be going through treatment", sort of just putting it out there. And I was really nervous about putting it on LinkedIn. I was a bit like, oh, is that a bit too personal? And all of those kind of things. I was like, no, I've talked about my mental health before, this is just another part of my health and I'll talk about it. And the reaction and the response that I got, I guess first of all, from people who cared about me, who I know love me and support me. That's amazing. And gosh, I would say to anybody, if you want to feel how loved you are, share with them a, a diagnosis like this and you absolutely feel that love. But [00:22:00] aside from that, it was also people that I didn't know. And people that I didn't know were saying, Wow, this is really insightful and informative, and there was a real sense for me that there was a gap that I needed to fill or to try and fill, which was around the reality of a cancer diagnosis, the impact on work, how things could be done well. My own experience, which will be very different, and I would caveat everything I say by saying, it's just my experience and somebody else might have a completely different preference or, preferred kind of route forward, but yeah, I was really encouraged by, people's responses and people sending me messages from all over the world saying, Thank you, that's really helped. I've got a colleague who was diagnosed and I now know a little bit more about what they're going through. Or, please, can you help me? I've got a family member, what's the best thing I can do to help them? So that, that really encouraged me, so I decided to, to keep going and to keep sharing my journey all the way [00:23:00] through, and still doing so today.
Amy: And people continue to gain and benefit from your personal insights, from your personal experience. You talked earlier about the fact that you continued working, You stopped working on some of the stuff, and continued working others. How can continuing to work throughout your treatment be good for you?
Tara: Yeah, so again, I would caveat. I've met many people who what they want is to take a long period of time off work, and if that's what they want, then that's absolutely fine. I'm not saying for one minute that my way is, is the, the right way. But for me personally, there were, there were a number of factors to it. So first of all, there's an element of, a sense of duty and responsibility. Now my manager would've always said to me, you don't owe me anything, I will treat you how I'm treating you. It's
not in anticipation of anything in return. However, for me, and, and that's what happens when you're looking at talent retention and you're looking at [00:24:00] that kind of psychological contract at work. For me, I felt like I wanted to give something back while I was feeling able to. So I decided between surgery and chemo, during chemo, between chemo and then further surgery, to work when I could.
And,and that was met again with positivity and flexibility from my manager. One of the other things that was really important to me, particularly during chemo, was, it was a time that I could feel normal. It was a time that I could feel in my comfort zone in terms of I know how to do my job, I know I'm good at my job. I know that I can benefit my colleagues if I'm here. So,being able to do just those few days of work and let's be really clear, I'm not talking about, I was doing my full-time job. I wasn't doing days and days of work at a time, even hours and hours. But when I could do something, having that sense that I was valued and that I was doing something, other than just focusing on cancer the whole time. And my [00:25:00] colleagues were amazing and I remember I proofread a piece of writing that a colleague had just asked me for a view on, and I gave her some feedback and gave her some ideas, and she just said, it is so lovely to have you here. And just hearing that, knowing that you can do something that you're not completely defunct and, going through treatment takes away a lot of your independence, a lot of your control on lots of things. And work for me was just something that I felt like I could actually make a difference and, and do something good. So, yeah, for me it was the right thing to do, and I was lucky in that my employer and my manager were very supportive with that as well.
Amy: Yeah. Yeah. It's maintaining that, sense of purpose, isn't it? And I think also what's shining through to me is just the confidence, that it gives, that it must have given you, to be able to say, I have my place. I belong, I belong here and I'm doing what I'm good at. And back to that ski slope, I'm in the moment. I'm [00:26:00] here rather than thinking about my diagnosis or the next bit of treatment or whatever, I'm actually just in the moment and focused on something which feels purposeful to me.
Tara: Yeah, definitely. And I think one of the things that I remember feeling so clearly and strongly and saying a lot, particularly during chemo, was that I felt broken. And I just had this overwhelming sense of my body is broken, and days when I couldn't get up to see my daughter before she went to school, days when I would literally be on the sofa,
unable to lift my head 'cause it was just too heavy and going through that and having that really strong sense of I'm broken, work for me, along with some other things outside of work, but work for me was that nobody's saying I'm broken here. Nobody's saying that I can't do this. My brain might be slightly addled by chemo and then
later on, going through medical menopause as well because of my [00:27:00] treatment, there was definitely an impact on my cognition and my kind of cognitive abilities, but I didn't feel broken at work and so that was really important.
Amy: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing that, that sounds super tough. So post-treatment, then it's all over, right? You're fixed.
Tara: Yep. Back to normal as people say.
Amy: Yeah. Is that the way it goes?
Tara: No, no, absolutely not. And, anyone who's read any of my LinkedIn posts hopefully now understands that. So yeah, I mean, in theory I finished active treatment, with some surgery, almost a year ago. So it was the end of April last year. And I think the expectation in a lot of people's heads is that's cancer kind of done. Are you cured? Is a question you get asked a lot. If you ever ask a cancer patient that they're probably not gonna be able to answer you. Oncologists don't like saying you're cured or you don't have cancer, or you are cancer free. So I've never been told "you don't have cancer", or "you are cancer [00:28:00] free." Remission is something slightly different, so I'm not in remission, but I am as clear of cancer as anyone is. So that's kind of what it is. However, because of the type of cancer that I had and the hormone receptors that were present in the tumors, I am now on a lot of medication to prevent the cancer from coming back. So I know that, because of the tumor and, and the tests that were run on the tumor, there is a relatively high risk of recurrence for me. And so thankfully, I mean, breast cancer's an area that has had so much investment in research and science. Thankfully, there are lots of options out there to try and keep any recurrence at bay, so that's the positive side. The negative side though is the impact of that medication. SoI was put into immediate medical menopause. So all your symptoms, all your side effects of menopause that you would have maybe on a 10 year period during perimenopause, I was hit with kind of pretty much overnight. Injections to suppress my [00:29:00] ovaries, daily medication. I'm currently just started a new, medical, regime over the last couple of months. I'm having more blood tests, ECGs. There's a huge amount physically to deal with, and when people say " Oh, you're looking really well" that's lovely and it's lovely to feel well and to feel like you look well. but the reality is there's still a lot going on, even, even a year later. And that's all the physical stuff. And then on the mental health side, the, the crashes there, and I do believe that your brain, I don't know the science behind it, I'm sure it's there, but your brain protects you and kind of allows you to process things at a time when you've got capacity to process. So when you are going through chemo and when you are recovering from surgery, your brain and your body is purely focused on that physical recovery. When that starts to tail off, I believe it is when you start getting the kind of mental health impact big time. You [00:30:00] suddenly realize you've been through this journey, you've been surrounded by medical support, you've been on conversations probably daily with nurses or professionals, and suddenly that tapers off and it really hits you, mentally. and that's when you get that dip. And for me personally, I kind of knew it was coming because historically when I've experienced periods of anxiety or depression, it's not been when something big's been going on. It's been a little while after. So for me, I knew that pattern, and it's partly why I wanted a therapist right from the beginning was to try and stop that happening. and I'm really thankful that it hasn't, that I've been okay. and I think that's through having therapy all the way through,that it's kind of helped keep me on a relatively even keel. but I do think more generally, with cancer and cancer treatment, the mental health impact comes after the physical treatment. and it can be really difficult, to deal with.
Amy: Wow. And all of that is crucial information, isn't it? For any organization
to realize that [00:31:00] actually after the treatment, it's not fixed. There's so much more that I suspect most people would need in, in some form or other. It sounds like your workplace, dealt with your, diagnosis and treatment really supportively. what's missing do you think, from other workplaces for people living with cancer and or going through treatment?
Tara: So I would say that, this is something that only kind of solidified in my mind just in the last couple of weeks, I think there needs to be a mindset change. I think as an organization and maybe in HR departments, we think of cancer as either an acute event, an acute illness, that someone then recovers from and, and comes back to work or a terminal illness, which of course, in some cases, sadly it still is. But we rarely think of it as a chronic illness. And for me that's the key difference I think we need to change our mindsets and think of cancer, in that kind of group, there are other illnesses, of chronic illness and see [00:32:00] it as something that is long lasting. It's very easy from a policy point of view to deal with one big absence. And often employers are very supportive, and will be like, yep, take your time, have your chemo, your radio, your surgery, take your time and then we'll see you when you're better. and that's treating it in that kind of acute way, if you like, with a beginning and an end. Or, on the other side, unfortunately, you're may be looking at earlier health retirement or sadly, for, for some you'd be looking at a kind of a death in service. What we don't really do, and I haven't really seen evidence of, is us thinking about it as an ongoing condition to deal with once the employee's back at work. For me that's what needs to change is that mindset first, followed by education, awareness, flexibility, and supportemployees a long way beyond their diagnosis and their initial treatment.
Amy: Yeah. Thanks Tara. Well, [00:33:00] let's, let's bring in some of the thoughts and comments that people have been putting into the chat. Just a reminder here is the question that Tara is posing to us all today. What can your organization do, to support employee employees with cancer better? Angus what sort of comments and thoughts have people been sharing?
Angus: We've gota good question here from Bep. I wish businesses would provide tailored support to understand what's now different for the individual and the richness that comes from a cancer diagnosis.
What would you say to that, Tara?
Tara: Yeah I would completely agree. I think the support needs to be there, particularly for people managers to understand and as BEP said, that kind of richness, it's complex. It's not one size fits all, and it might be that organizations need to equip their managers with the awareness, of what some different situations might look like, but then also the right questions to [00:34:00] ask, 'cause ultimately that's what's needed, is asking the right questions and listening to the answers. So I do think that's a necessity in organizations, to better support people.
Angus: Thank you.
Amy: And there's a comment here from karen Monaghan, she says, I'm incredibly lucky to work within an organization with lots of fantastic wellbeing, support and resources available for our employees, both with cancer and, their line managers supporting them. But we could do more to promote these resources to ensure our employees know what's available to them. That's the first part. So what's your thoughts on getting those and promoting those resources? Tara?
Tara: Yeah, it's always a challenge andhaving worked in HR for a long time, it is that challenge when you look at things like EAP usage and the numbers can be really, really low and it could be an absolute lifeline for one employee, and that's worth the investment. But really you want to be making sure that everybody has access, everybody knows what's out there. And I think there's things like during induction, making sure [00:35:00] that it's given, time and and cover during induction. I think similarly with any kind of wellbeing, whether that's mental health, physical health, specifically to cancer, having ongoing events, I suppose, in the calendar through the year. I've worked with companies that have done like a benefits roadshow or, have sent something home to people. Although it can be costly, if it lands on the doorstep, actually what you see is the benefit of potentially that person's family also seeing it and that can be really useful. Because it could be that actually I think there's nothing out there to support me or I can't remember what's out there to support me, but my husband might go, well, do you remember that thing that got put in the post the other day, or even last year? I'm sure there was something in there. Have a look at it. So, there's real power, I think, in using different communication methods, to build people's awareness of the tools that are out there.
Angus: I've got a personal question for you, Tara.
Tara: Yeah.
Angus: One thing that I've heard a [00:36:00] lot is people saying they don't know what to say to somebody who has got cancer. Yeah. And I've heard people with cancer saying, somebody I knew walked across the road rather than what come and speak to me. Things like this. Yeah. What advice would you give to somebody who doesn't know what to say?
Tara: So I think in some ways it probably goes right the way back to that conversation we had about my first early days of work at Unilever, and that was about remembering that we're all human. So I think remembering that we're all human is really important. I would say in terms of what to say, I think just reaching out and saying "I'm thinking of you", is really powerful. I said earlier, the amount of love that I felt was incredible. Some people don't choose to to share their diagnosis. other people do. I chose to share it and I still have a pile of letters and cards and things that people have sent me,
and it's the most incredible feeling of being loved. And so whatever you can [00:37:00] do to show that person that you love them, that you are thinking of them, and also not to forget. I get it, everybody's got their lives and they're dealing with lots of things themselves, but interestingly, I posted something recently about the amount of medication that I'm still on and I had a couple of friends reach out saying, oh goodness Tara are you okay? Like, has it come back? Because they just had no idea, they thought the cancer was like over there and it was all done. And I was like, no, this is just life. This is life now. So I would say, make sure they know that you care about them, that you love them. Check in with them on a daily basis, not a daily basis. I mean, asking how are you today? rather than just, how are you? Same, kind of thing that you would do when someone's grieving, I suppose, is just focusing in on how that person is that day. And then yeah, continuing that support, remembering that when they finish treatment, they might well be feeling at their worst.
Angus: I also think, don't be scared. Just say, I'm sorry you're not well. Yeah. You know, I've [00:38:00] used that myself where I haven't known what to say, so I've just said I'm sorry you're not well, if I can help you let me know.
Tara: Really important to do.
Amy: Really important. Yeah. Karen Monaghan's post here says, she's also pointing out, thank you, Karen, the importance of that education piece around our mental wellbeing, that the impact of a cancer diagnosis has. You've talked about getting the comms out there and stuff, what do you think is needed in terms of the education piece?
Tara: I would love to see that on the NHS, that there's an automatic referral for mental health support when someone's diagnosed with cancer. So I was advocating for myself. I had enough awareness and experience to know that it was something that I needed and I had my insurance company who were happy to support it and, and pay for it. If I had been somebody going through this on the NHS, perhaps with no experience of poor mental health or no experience of counseling or anything like that, I maybe wouldn't have asked, and wouldn't have thought to [00:39:00] ask. And actually I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but when you look at some of the statistics and the research, the mental health impact of cancer is huge and is fairly universal. So,having something in place, and then on the organization side, because we know the stress that the NHS is under and that's not necessarily something that I can just click my fingers and make happen. I think on the organization side, offering that support, so as well as, okay, here's your company sick pay, this is what we can do around your role. Perhaps a part of that kind of package of support from your employer could also be mental health support.
Angus: Good. We have a comment here from Cora. She's just saying that you're so lucky to have such a supportive management team, sometimes businesses are all mouth, with no actual backing.
Tara: Yeah. Yeah. And I am so grateful for the experience that I had, and I would also say there are lots of employers who, have good [00:40:00] intent, but maybe are not getting it right. So if I think back to a PepsiCo or a Unilever, if I had been diagnosed when I was working for them, their intent would absolutely be positive and supportive, but it would have been seen, like I said, as this kind of acute event. And it would've been, okay, you've got great sick pay, you can take as much time off as you need, we'll pay you, you've got maybe private healthcare, all of those kind of things, which are great, but I don't think I would've had the flexibility. I don't think I would've been able to feel that sense of, belonging and value that was so important to me by working during my treatment. I'm not sure big companies are set up to be as flexible as that. So it's not the size of the business, necessarily, it's sometimes just thinking about it beyond policy and beyond big gestures and thinking about the individual.
Amy: One more swift question for you, Tara from Ashley De Fries
She says, what advice would you give when people's [00:41:00] staring can get too much? I used to struggle with that during active treatment, and it used to make me anxious.
Thank you for sharing that.
Tara: Thank you. Really tough. Really tough. I think particularly like the big one is your hair loss right? And, it's taken me a long time to stop explaining my short hair as I had cancer and owning it as this is a choice and this is how I want to be from now on. When I had no hair, and looked very much like a cancer patient, I found it really difficult to be out and about and particularly, I'd wear a hat if I was cold and go into, say, a shop, and I found the hardest thing in the world was taking that hat off when I was hot because I felt like I was going TADA world, look at me,
I've got cancer, I've got no hair. So dealing with that staring I can completely empathize is, is really difficult. I think you just have to deal with it with compassion for the individual that is staring. So you're almost thinking, okay, they're not [00:42:00] meaning any harm to me. If you don't know them, then I'm not sure there's much good in kind of being a bit aggressive or confrontational about it. I think you've just gotta think, actually, they're just not used to seeing somebody who looks like this, but wish them well andthey don't know what to say. So I get that that's a lot easier said than done though, and it's, it's a tough one that I don't have a kind of magic answer for how to deal with.
Amy: Yeah, but you know, when you're showing kindness to others, you're also showing it to yourself. So it's benefiting everyone, isn't it? Thank you everyone for putting in thoughts and comments in the chat. I'm aware we haven't got through all of them, so there's stuff to read there if you want to take a look at that either now or towards the end.
We'll just have a look now go through your top tips, Tara. So your first one is be led by the employee. Ask questions before you make decisions.
Tara: Absolutely. So,as I said with my boss, if he had come to me and said, right, I've decided that I'm gonna change your role and we're gonna take that person off you, [00:43:00] I would've felt quite disempowered and I would've felt quite annoyed to be honest. So if you have ideas on how to support the employees, fantastic, but check in with them
Amy: and be open-minded. No two cancers, treatment pathways or people are the same. I think that says it all, doesn't it? Be as flexible as you can. Be open to ways that work could play a part in their journey.
Tara: Yeah, definitely. And the one thing that I haven't said that I think is really important is the benefit for the business of having someone who's going through treatment and wants to do some work is the type of work that you can give them. So you can't necessarily give them the urgent work with deadlines, you don't know when they're gonna be feeling okay.
What I ended up doing was the important work that wasn't urgent. That's often at the bottom of people's to-do lists and you can't get to. So from a, a business case for doing this, I think there is real benefit in the type of work that somebody can do during treatment.
Amy: Yeah, that's a really [00:44:00] valuable insight. Thanks, Tara, and be informed, build your awareness and knowledge of resources available.
Tara: Yep! Absolutely. I think there's lots out there, it's something that I'm really keen to work on, if I can give myself a little plug here, and, very, very keen to work with businesses to build their awareness, and on how to do this, it's, it's definitely needed.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's what you've set up Onward with You to focus on, isn't it? So that's really fantastic, Tara. We just have time for, one or two quickfire questions.
So quickfire question, quickfire answer. Here we go. What does vulnerability mean to you, Tara?
Tara: Being true to yourself.
Amy: What little thing do you notice? Zooming to celebrate every day.
Tara: Bird Song at the moment.
Amy: What message would you give your younger self?
Tara: Oh God. you don't have to rush.
Amy: Lovely. And what [00:45:00] message would your younger self
give you?
Tara: Hmm. You don't have to rush.
Amy: Excellent. What do you say to leaders that use only plasters, give lip service to workplace mental health and wellbeing.
Tara: I think often the, the thing you can say that kind of hits them where it matters is, how would you like to be treated or how would you like your best friend, your child, your partner, to be treated at work? I.
Amy: Nice one, Tara. Fantastic. I'm gonna hand you over to Angus.
Tara: Thank you, Amy.
Angus: Ah, really
there's, there's some times that I find this quite a difficult thing to do, and I find this quite a difficult thing to do. That was incredibly frank. It was very honest, very open and brave. It was very moving and insightful. You've demonstrated that you're [00:46:00] truly authentic. And being truly yourself. It was an inspiring message of hope and I'd really like to thank you for joining us on the Wellbeing Hour.
Thank you.
Tara: Thank you Angus and Amy. It has been my pleasure.
Angus: That was really, really, really good. So thank you, Tara. I think we've all got, you know, some kind of personal experience here and, to hear, hear your voice and way you put it over like that, is very moving actually, thank you.
Tara: Thank you.
Angus: Okay, so the next wellbeing hour. We have Geoff McDonald.
Geoff is a longtime friend of Headtorch and, the first time we spoke to him actually, he'd just been to number 10 Downing Street to talk about mental health, and that was around about 10 years ago. He flies with the Eagles does our geoff.
He's a [00:47:00] global advocate for speaking on workplace mental health. He's a senior advisor to us at Headtorch he was a global Vice president of HR at Unilever, and he's going to be controversial, so he's talking about workplace wellbeing, a waste of time and effort. So we welcome you all to come and join in that.
I think it's going to be. A really interesting one and, I think controversial. We ask for your questions, have a think about it, and, come along with your thoughts. That's 15th of May, same time. And,
you'll see the communication going out on that. That is almost it for the wellbeing here today. We would love to hear from you about what you are doing with workplace mental health. We have tailored solutions for senior leaders, people, managers, direct and indirect staff. You can contact us there, they're my details. Also there is a free consultation if you scan that code.
So [00:48:00] thank you very, very much for joining us. It's always a pleasure. It is always an honor to run the Wellbeing Hour.
And that is it from us today. Thank you.
Amy: Thank you everybody.
Thanks for listening to the Wellbeing Hour. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. These events take place regularly. So do join us for more. And if your organization would like to develop a mentally healthy culture, we'd be happy to work with your senior team people, managers, and frontline staff. Please get in touch@headtorch.org.
We look forward to hearing from you.
Amy: [00:00:00] This is the Head Torch podcast. Welcome. Our mission to create a mentally healthy culture at work, keeping the conversations alive. Our podcasts bring you great presenters and stimulating discussion on mental health and wellbeing in the workplace. Enjoy.
Welcome everybody to the Headtorch Wellbeing Hour with me, Amy McDonald.
Angus: And me Angus Robinson.
We'll introduce our guest, Tara Ferguson in a few moments, a heads up that we are recording this and you will be able to listen to it on the podcast channels such as Spotify. Please do follow us there, it does make a difference and we do appreciate it.
At Headtorch, we work with organizations to develop and maintain mentally healthy cultures. The Wellbeing Hour is an important extension of our work. I'll be back in a little while to field some of your questions to our guest. Amy.
Amy: And we look forward to, those thoughts and questions that you put to us, for those of you who are [00:01:00] joining us, live today, And before then, I of course will be asking our guest some questions myself. And those questions will include things like how would you describe the link between cancer and mental health? How can continuing to work throughout treatment actually be good for you? And in your opinion, what's missing from work for people living with cancer and going through treatment?
Today's session is called Cancer and Work When Your Only Choice is to move forward.
And of course, as Angus said, we are delighted to have the amazing Tara Ferguson with us here today, and Tara we'll hear your story shortly.
But before we go any further, let me just share the question that you are posing to all of our guests here today, which is, What can your organization do to support employees with cancer better? [00:02:00] What can your organization do to support employees with cancer better? So please do add your thoughts to that question, which will be popped into the chat.
If you could add your thoughts to the chat, we'll pick up on those and any other questions, comments you have, as Tara and I go into conversation. So let me introduce
Tara to you more formally, if you like. So in a career spanning over 20 years, Tara began work at Unilever. She then went on to work at Leonardo and at PepsiCo as the HR manager at their Quaker Oats factory, and there she also trained as a coach.
And she was seconded as their UK Wellbeing Manager, and it was in this capacity that, Angus and I first met Tara when PepsiCo trialed our very first online program. And since then, we've continued to build both our [00:03:00] working relationship and our friendship with you, Tara.
Tara then went on to be associate director people with a biotech startup company called Exscientia, and in this role she launched the company's first mental wellbeing strategy. And we're delighted to say that once again, she brought us in to work with both our senior team there and the people leaders.
In recent years, Tara was diagnosed with cancer, and this, of course, has taken her on a whole new journey and we're gonna hear more about that today. Tara, it's amazing to have you with us today. Please introduce yourself with your mystery object.
Tara: Thank you Amy. and yeah, good afternoon everyone, it's a real pleasure to be here. As Amy said, we go back many years. so it's lovely to be doing this together today. So my mystery object, it's actually a sticker that is on my laptop, so is, it's down here, which isn't very useful to [00:04:00] share with you.
But I have a spare one, so I thought I would show you the spare one. So this is my mystery object here, and this sticker, for those of you who are maybe keen skiers, you would know that that is, typically the sign you would see on a black run, at a ski resort, and it is indeed a black run called Rhodos in Montgenevre. Myself and my, husband and my daughter went skiing in January this year and I'd never skied a black run before. They were off doing all sorts of things from day one and I was in lessons, trying to learn to be a better ski. Skier. And by the final day of the lessons, uh, the teacher decided that we were ready to do a black run. So very slowly, very gingerly, a group of about six of us made our way down this black run and felt hugely, proud of ourselves at the end when we, uh, when we got to the bottom. And in the afternoon I was skiing by myself, and decided to give myself a bit of a challenge. So I went back to the top of this black run and I stood there for quite a while, debating do [00:05:00] I go down for a second time on my own without my teacher. And uh, watched a few people go past, and thought, right, I'm gonna do this. So I did it. the, just the sense of achievement for me was, was huge. and, the reason that I've put the sticker on my laptop is because it's a reminder to me every day, that I can do hard things. I can kind of put myself out there out of my comfort zone. and it just gives me a bit of encouragement, every day when I see it.
Amy: Amazing. Wow. Fantastic. Thank you for sharing that great story, Tara. So can you describe more that sort of sense of achievement of doing that black run all by yourself?
Tara: Yeah, I'm someone that I quite often talk to myself, if I'm doing hard things. And just that sense of making my way down slowly in my own time I felt like I was in control. Uh, Every so often I'd look back up, which is, for anyone that skis, that's probably the hardest bit is when you're looking directly up or directly down, at [00:06:00] what you've done. And yeah, just getting to the end, I just got a buzz, and just, thought, you know what, I can do hard things. And there's a book by Glennon Doyle, if anyone knows it, that's of that name as well. And just really, empowering, I suppose, feeling of independence, which is something that I was lacking over the last couple of years, feeling that I can kind of go out there on my own. and yeah, obviously I had just started my new business, so it, it very much helped, my mindset of. I can do something that that's, very difficult, if I put my mind to it.
Amy: Fabulous. But there's also something in there isn't there about actually, rather than looking up or looking down, there's something very much about being in the moment. Just being in that spot where you are and how that helps us to maintain that sense of calm, despite the terror around us.
Tara: Yeah, definitely. And I was, I mean, my daughter did the black run in front of me later and she just goes just kind of pretty much straight down, whereas I was never at any point [00:07:00] really straight down. I was very much just taking it one turn at a time and looking forward and, and looking towards the trees on the other side of the run. But yeah, you're right. It, it's very much like anything. If we stay kinda mindful and in the present moment,
then that can really help keep us calm and then we see the progress that we can make at
the end.
Amy: Wonderful. And just to remind folks here, the, the book's called
Tara: think It's called, you Can Do Hard Things by Glennon Doyle.
Amy:
Tara: it's a book I read a few years ago, but yeah, it stuck with me.
Amy: Wonderful. Thank you, Tara. So you started your career at Unilever, in the Bird's Eye Factory, no less in Suffolk. Other than fish fingers, tell us, how did you end up joining their grad scheme?
Tara: Yeah, so I, I'm laughing because in the guest today we've got Ian and Julie who I met at that factory. and Ian was the ops manager for that factory and he's shaking his head because he didn't make fish fingers. It was chicken fingers and potato waffles and peas and [00:08:00] burgers. But yeah, I, I did my degree in Psychology and I decided before I went to uni that I wanted to work in HR and I was always just very much kind of, once I've decided to do something, just straightforward. Follow that path. And, Unilever was was an organization that I could identify with. I like kind of being able to understand what the organization does, and also to feel a sense of pride when you tell your friends and your family. I would bore them to tears with the special machinery in the factories and talking about how their peas came to being and to getting into their little bags in their freezers. And yeah, so being able to see the brand was really important to me. and so I went through the assessment for the grad scheme with them, was successful and started off, as a gosh, how old was I? 20-year-old. so I was young for, for finishing uni. 20-year-old. Started off in, in Lowestoft, in the most easterly point in the uk.
Amy: Wow. And what would you say were your [00:09:00] top sort of learning points there?
Tara: I would say probably, just be true to yourself. So I had an incredible manager, a man called Derek Herbert, who was the inspiration for my career I think. He sadly passed away, a couple of years afterwards, and I was actually offered his role, at that point to, replace him, which was an incredibly difficult thing to do at the age of 22. But but yeah, my learnings were just about just be yourself. And I used to get terrified talking to like the trade union reps, and just thinking, oh my goodness, they're just gonna eat me alive. And actually 20 odd years later, I'm still in touch with one of them. and I think that's because I just am myself. I'm me and I'm not trying to be anyone else. And just realizing that everyone that you work with is a human being at the end of the day. Doesn't matter, kind of how old you are, what experience you've got.If you're there to do a job and and you can work together, then it kind of tends to work out.
Amy: Yeah. Well it sounds like the, the black [00:10:00] run that you faced recently, you've been facing quite a few of them and just kind of head on.
Tara: Yeah. Yeah.
Amy: Since the year dot right. Can you give just a few descriptive words as to what made that manager so good?
Tara: He was very softly spoken, he was a Brummie, and he just stayed calm. That was probably one thing that I really remember him for. He had a good sense of humor, so he was able to have a laugh, um, and he just, he really cared about people. he was the employee relations manager and had some really difficult conversations to do and to have and working through lots of really difficult situations. But he just stayed calm and, treated people with utmost respect throughout.
Amy: Lovely. The word cared really jumped out at me there. That's, that's all we need really, isn't it? We just need to feel that we're cared for and then we're much more likely to [00:11:00] feel, yeah. Feel, feel that we can be our best, I suppose. . because of that support around us, that someone's got our back. Great. So in your role as, as UK wellbeing manager at, at PepsiCo, apart from obviously meeting Angus and myself, you know, what did you enjoy most about that role
Tara: That was obviously the highlight, Amy.
Amy:
Obviously other than that.
Tara: Other than that, it was interesting actually. So I had had some experience of anxiety in my early twenties before I went into this role, and I had kept it from, my kind of colleagues and manager, at Pepsi. Mainly because, on one of my first days, in role in Pepsi, the manager that I had in my HR role, made a kind of flippant comment about someone who was off sick with, with poor mental health, and made a bit of a comment, a bit of a kind of cynical aside about this woman who was off, kind of saying he wasn't sure how genuine she was. And at that point I thought, goodness, I'm not gonna share [00:12:00] my own feelings here, and that just completely stopped me from being able to, I guess to some extent be my authentic self. And then when I was successful in getting the secondment, to, to cover, the mat leave for the UK Wellbeing Manager, I just had this sense of I can't do this authentically if I don't talk about my own experience. So before I even started the role, I spoke to my boss and I said, look, I just wanna share this with you, because I feel like it's something I, I would like to share. This is why I haven't shared it so far, but actually doing this role, it's really important to me to be authentic. So, that was a huge kind of, step forward, I think for me to say, actually this is me. And like it or not, it's part of me.
And then that year, what I loved was, just the enthusiasm with which people, at all the different sites across the uk were wanting to make a difference. and at Pepsi our strategy was about, mental wellbeing, it was physical wellbeing. [00:13:00] At that time there was smoking cessation, there was diet and nutrition, and physical exercise. So it was a kind of multi, multi pillared approach. but without doubt, the mental health bit was the kind of focus. And we did lots of activities as well as the Headtorch thing. We did time to talk day we did mental health road shows, those kind of things. And for me the biggest impact was, was seeing people start to talk about mental health. And this was. I think this was 20, 2014, 2015, like that. So this was 10 years ago. I now look back and see how far we've come, which is amazing, but at that point there was still very much a stigma around mental health. So, yeah, that was the highlight for me was just feeling like I'd made a, made an impact in that area.
Amy: Yeah, definitely. What a shift, a personal shift it sounds like, from not being able to talk about it and, you know, that impact of what somebody says. And how it can shut someone down, you know, it's [00:14:00] huge for you talking about your own experiences, but actually heading up the program within a very large multinational. It's just, it's just amazing, so really fantastic. And then you return to the fabulous Quaker Oats factory, here in Bonnie Scotland, and you took up the role of, wait for it folks, the lead, lean, leadership coach.
Later of course you moved to, to Exscientia and, and again, you shifted the dial there, didn't you, in in terms of workplace mental health. And then in the summer of 2023, everything changed, when you received the news that no one wants to hear, and you were diagnosed with cancer. How would you describe the link then between cancer and, and mental health?
Tara: I guess the action that I took that probably best sums up that link, was along with, obviously needing my kind of medical care and my physical care. [00:15:00] I immediately asked for a therapist, for a mental health therapist. Pretty much, I think it was probably a week after I was diagnosed. So I recognized that over the years I had struggled at times with anxiety, with depression. I was on antidepressants, I still am on antidepressants. and just knew that I was gonna need some help with my mental health through this. So,yeah, I was diagnosed with breast cancer, I knew that the path aheadwas uncertain. I knew that the prognosis looked good,I had confidence that everything would be okay physically, but I also knew that the impact that it had the potential to have on my mental health. I was fortunate I have medical insurance and so was able to speak to my contact at my insurer and say, please, can I get a referral to, to see somebody?
So sorry. I was just thinking it's that, you know, from what we've heard about your, your sort of personal journey to date, it's actually [00:16:00] about, you know, it's, it sounds like know thyself, isn't it? You, you knew that actually, in order to safeguard and support yourself through this, the first thing you need to do is support your own mental health and be also open and honest about that, not only with yourself, but with your place of work, right?
Absolutely. and, and I talked to my place of work. So because I'd been working on the mental wellbeing strategy, I'd always been really open about my own experiences. My daughter as well, had quite bad anxiety that was built up through Covid, and became kind of very much a kind of health anxiety. And actually in that summer of 23, she was just coming out of the end of a series of therapy sessions and was doing really well, and, and is now, yeah, doing fantastic. But I knew that the impact on her as well, was, yeah, she might feel better now, but suddenly her [00:17:00] mom's got cancer and, and that's a huge deal to any child, let alone one that has just had this kind of quite big health anxiety. So all of that,uh, was playing in my mind and yeah, you're absolutely right. at no point did I think, I, I need to be careful about talking about this at work. My manager was incredible throughout the whole process, always asking me what I needed and there for me throughout, and my mental health was just a part of that. So just as I have my surgeon, I have my oncologist, I have my breast cancer nurse specialist. I also have my therapist and I still do to this day. So I'm still seeing somebody every couple of weeks, to support me in my mental health.
Amy: Great. How would you describe the attributes of your manager at that time?
Tara: So he he hates me talking about him like this, but he deserves it. So Chris, if you're listening or if anyone knows Chris, then absolutely he deserves the kudos The day I [00:18:00] told him about my diagnosis, he knew that there was a possibility because we were waiting for test results. So he knew, that it was, it was a possibility. I spoke to him and he just immediately put things into action. So it wasn't just empty words. He wasn't saying, oh, Tara, I'm so sorry, what can I do to help or let me know if there's anything I can do to help. So at the time I was business partnering two of our exec, it was quite a, a busy time, and he just immediately said, look, should I take this part off you? And if I'd said no, he would've respected that, absolutely, but the fact that he offered and I didn't have to ask, made such a difference, and it effectively took 50% of my role away, overnight. And I said, yes, please. And and so he did that, and then there was a bit of a period of time where I had lots of appointments, but we were kind of working through what my treatment plan would be, so I continued to business partner the other exec. And then the time came when I had surgery and I knew I was gonna be facing chemo, , we [00:19:00] said right, the time's right now to, to take the rest of that role off me. So I think yeah, his attributes would just be about action focused, but also person focused. So at no point saying here's the rule book and this is what you need to do. It was very much kind of what did I need and suggesting actions to ease things from a work point of view.
Amy: Yeah. And so you had great support from him. Sounds like he was tuning into, what was best for you as opposed to what was best for him or others. Yeah. The wider network of colleagues, what was the reaction?
Tara: They were all, very similar, just incredible. I think some of that might have been the type of business. So it was a drug discovery business, with a focus on oncology. So although quite a few steps removed from the treatment that I was facing, there was definitely a sense of actually what we do as a business is about saving lives. It's about improving lives, it's [00:20:00] about finding drugs that are gonna make a difference. And so I do think there was an element of, there's a lot of people who had specialisms in oncology, who understood the kind of medication side of things, the treatment side of things. So,yeah, without exception, everyone was very, very supportive. I remember messaging somebody during treatment actually, who'd had quite a big change in, in their role. and I sent them a message just to say like, how are you doing? Looks like you've
got quite a lot on your plate at the moment. And and I remember him coming back to me saying, yeah, absolutely. But all you need to do is focus on you. Just take your time, just focus on you, focus on getting better. And so to see that from very senior people in the organization, and pretty much everyone followed suit.
Amy: Yeah. How, how, heartwarming and, and also how lovely that, you know there you were in the thick of it and you're reaching out to others. Showing your kindness. Very Tara. Very Tara. And other [00:21:00] things you did to support yourself, You're a big blogger, what was the motivation for writing the blogs that you did throughout your treatment?
Tara: Yeah, so I, I posted on LinkedIn and I posted on Facebook and Instagram and particularly on the LinkedIn site. The first post that I posted, I thought at that point was just be a little bit of a "Hi. I've been diagnosed with cancer. I'm gonna be going through treatment", sort of just putting it out there. And I was really nervous about putting it on LinkedIn. I was a bit like, oh, is that a bit too personal? And all of those kind of things. I was like, no, I've talked about my mental health before, this is just another part of my health and I'll talk about it. And the reaction and the response that I got, I guess first of all, from people who cared about me, who I know love me and support me. That's amazing. And gosh, I would say to anybody, if you want to feel how loved you are, share with them a, a diagnosis like this and you absolutely feel that love. But [00:22:00] aside from that, it was also people that I didn't know. And people that I didn't know were saying, Wow, this is really insightful and informative, and there was a real sense for me that there was a gap that I needed to fill or to try and fill, which was around the reality of a cancer diagnosis, the impact on work, how things could be done well. My own experience, which will be very different, and I would caveat everything I say by saying, it's just my experience and somebody else might have a completely different preference or, preferred kind of route forward, but yeah, I was really encouraged by, people's responses and people sending me messages from all over the world saying, Thank you, that's really helped. I've got a colleague who was diagnosed and I now know a little bit more about what they're going through. Or, please, can you help me? I've got a family member, what's the best thing I can do to help them? So that, that really encouraged me, so I decided to, to keep going and to keep sharing my journey all the way [00:23:00] through, and still doing so today.
Amy: And people continue to gain and benefit from your personal insights, from your personal experience. You talked earlier about the fact that you continued working, You stopped working on some of the stuff, and continued working others. How can continuing to work throughout your treatment be good for you?
Tara: Yeah, so again, I would caveat. I've met many people who what they want is to take a long period of time off work, and if that's what they want, then that's absolutely fine. I'm not saying for one minute that my way is, is the, the right way. But for me personally, there were, there were a number of factors to it. So first of all, there's an element of, a sense of duty and responsibility. Now my manager would've always said to me, you don't owe me anything, I will treat you how I'm treating you. It's
not in anticipation of anything in return. However, for me, and, and that's what happens when you're looking at talent retention and you're looking at [00:24:00] that kind of psychological contract at work. For me, I felt like I wanted to give something back while I was feeling able to. So I decided between surgery and chemo, during chemo, between chemo and then further surgery, to work when I could.
And,and that was met again with positivity and flexibility from my manager. One of the other things that was really important to me, particularly during chemo, was, it was a time that I could feel normal. It was a time that I could feel in my comfort zone in terms of I know how to do my job, I know I'm good at my job. I know that I can benefit my colleagues if I'm here. So,being able to do just those few days of work and let's be really clear, I'm not talking about, I was doing my full-time job. I wasn't doing days and days of work at a time, even hours and hours. But when I could do something, having that sense that I was valued and that I was doing something, other than just focusing on cancer the whole time. And my [00:25:00] colleagues were amazing and I remember I proofread a piece of writing that a colleague had just asked me for a view on, and I gave her some feedback and gave her some ideas, and she just said, it is so lovely to have you here. And just hearing that, knowing that you can do something that you're not completely defunct and, going through treatment takes away a lot of your independence, a lot of your control on lots of things. And work for me was just something that I felt like I could actually make a difference and, and do something good. So, yeah, for me it was the right thing to do, and I was lucky in that my employer and my manager were very supportive with that as well.
Amy: Yeah. Yeah. It's maintaining that, sense of purpose, isn't it? And I think also what's shining through to me is just the confidence, that it gives, that it must have given you, to be able to say, I have my place. I belong, I belong here and I'm doing what I'm good at. And back to that ski slope, I'm in the moment. I'm [00:26:00] here rather than thinking about my diagnosis or the next bit of treatment or whatever, I'm actually just in the moment and focused on something which feels purposeful to me.
Tara: Yeah, definitely. And I think one of the things that I remember feeling so clearly and strongly and saying a lot, particularly during chemo, was that I felt broken. And I just had this overwhelming sense of my body is broken, and days when I couldn't get up to see my daughter before she went to school, days when I would literally be on the sofa,
unable to lift my head 'cause it was just too heavy and going through that and having that really strong sense of I'm broken, work for me, along with some other things outside of work, but work for me was that nobody's saying I'm broken here. Nobody's saying that I can't do this. My brain might be slightly addled by chemo and then
later on, going through medical menopause as well because of my [00:27:00] treatment, there was definitely an impact on my cognition and my kind of cognitive abilities, but I didn't feel broken at work and so that was really important.
Amy: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing that, that sounds super tough. So post-treatment, then it's all over, right? You're fixed.
Tara: Yep. Back to normal as people say.
Amy: Yeah. Is that the way it goes?
Tara: No, no, absolutely not. And, anyone who's read any of my LinkedIn posts hopefully now understands that. So yeah, I mean, in theory I finished active treatment, with some surgery, almost a year ago. So it was the end of April last year. And I think the expectation in a lot of people's heads is that's cancer kind of done. Are you cured? Is a question you get asked a lot. If you ever ask a cancer patient that they're probably not gonna be able to answer you. Oncologists don't like saying you're cured or you don't have cancer, or you are cancer free. So I've never been told "you don't have cancer", or "you are cancer [00:28:00] free." Remission is something slightly different, so I'm not in remission, but I am as clear of cancer as anyone is. So that's kind of what it is. However, because of the type of cancer that I had and the hormone receptors that were present in the tumors, I am now on a lot of medication to prevent the cancer from coming back. So I know that, because of the tumor and, and the tests that were run on the tumor, there is a relatively high risk of recurrence for me. And so thankfully, I mean, breast cancer's an area that has had so much investment in research and science. Thankfully, there are lots of options out there to try and keep any recurrence at bay, so that's the positive side. The negative side though is the impact of that medication. SoI was put into immediate medical menopause. So all your symptoms, all your side effects of menopause that you would have maybe on a 10 year period during perimenopause, I was hit with kind of pretty much overnight. Injections to suppress my [00:29:00] ovaries, daily medication. I'm currently just started a new, medical, regime over the last couple of months. I'm having more blood tests, ECGs. There's a huge amount physically to deal with, and when people say " Oh, you're looking really well" that's lovely and it's lovely to feel well and to feel like you look well. but the reality is there's still a lot going on, even, even a year later. And that's all the physical stuff. And then on the mental health side, the, the crashes there, and I do believe that your brain, I don't know the science behind it, I'm sure it's there, but your brain protects you and kind of allows you to process things at a time when you've got capacity to process. So when you are going through chemo and when you are recovering from surgery, your brain and your body is purely focused on that physical recovery. When that starts to tail off, I believe it is when you start getting the kind of mental health impact big time. You [00:30:00] suddenly realize you've been through this journey, you've been surrounded by medical support, you've been on conversations probably daily with nurses or professionals, and suddenly that tapers off and it really hits you, mentally. and that's when you get that dip. And for me personally, I kind of knew it was coming because historically when I've experienced periods of anxiety or depression, it's not been when something big's been going on. It's been a little while after. So for me, I knew that pattern, and it's partly why I wanted a therapist right from the beginning was to try and stop that happening. and I'm really thankful that it hasn't, that I've been okay. and I think that's through having therapy all the way through,that it's kind of helped keep me on a relatively even keel. but I do think more generally, with cancer and cancer treatment, the mental health impact comes after the physical treatment. and it can be really difficult, to deal with.
Amy: Wow. And all of that is crucial information, isn't it? For any organization
to realize that [00:31:00] actually after the treatment, it's not fixed. There's so much more that I suspect most people would need in, in some form or other. It sounds like your workplace, dealt with your, diagnosis and treatment really supportively. what's missing do you think, from other workplaces for people living with cancer and or going through treatment?
Tara: So I would say that, this is something that only kind of solidified in my mind just in the last couple of weeks, I think there needs to be a mindset change. I think as an organization and maybe in HR departments, we think of cancer as either an acute event, an acute illness, that someone then recovers from and, and comes back to work or a terminal illness, which of course, in some cases, sadly it still is. But we rarely think of it as a chronic illness. And for me that's the key difference I think we need to change our mindsets and think of cancer, in that kind of group, there are other illnesses, of chronic illness and see [00:32:00] it as something that is long lasting. It's very easy from a policy point of view to deal with one big absence. And often employers are very supportive, and will be like, yep, take your time, have your chemo, your radio, your surgery, take your time and then we'll see you when you're better. and that's treating it in that kind of acute way, if you like, with a beginning and an end. Or, on the other side, unfortunately, you're may be looking at earlier health retirement or sadly, for, for some you'd be looking at a kind of a death in service. What we don't really do, and I haven't really seen evidence of, is us thinking about it as an ongoing condition to deal with once the employee's back at work. For me that's what needs to change is that mindset first, followed by education, awareness, flexibility, and supportemployees a long way beyond their diagnosis and their initial treatment.
Amy: Yeah. Thanks Tara. Well, [00:33:00] let's, let's bring in some of the thoughts and comments that people have been putting into the chat. Just a reminder here is the question that Tara is posing to us all today. What can your organization do, to support employee employees with cancer better? Angus what sort of comments and thoughts have people been sharing?
Angus: We've gota good question here from Bep. I wish businesses would provide tailored support to understand what's now different for the individual and the richness that comes from a cancer diagnosis.
What would you say to that, Tara?
Tara: Yeah I would completely agree. I think the support needs to be there, particularly for people managers to understand and as BEP said, that kind of richness, it's complex. It's not one size fits all, and it might be that organizations need to equip their managers with the awareness, of what some different situations might look like, but then also the right questions to [00:34:00] ask, 'cause ultimately that's what's needed, is asking the right questions and listening to the answers. So I do think that's a necessity in organizations, to better support people.
Angus: Thank you.
Amy: And there's a comment here from karen Monaghan, she says, I'm incredibly lucky to work within an organization with lots of fantastic wellbeing, support and resources available for our employees, both with cancer and, their line managers supporting them. But we could do more to promote these resources to ensure our employees know what's available to them. That's the first part. So what's your thoughts on getting those and promoting those resources? Tara?
Tara: Yeah, it's always a challenge andhaving worked in HR for a long time, it is that challenge when you look at things like EAP usage and the numbers can be really, really low and it could be an absolute lifeline for one employee, and that's worth the investment. But really you want to be making sure that everybody has access, everybody knows what's out there. And I think there's things like during induction, making sure [00:35:00] that it's given, time and and cover during induction. I think similarly with any kind of wellbeing, whether that's mental health, physical health, specifically to cancer, having ongoing events, I suppose, in the calendar through the year. I've worked with companies that have done like a benefits roadshow or, have sent something home to people. Although it can be costly, if it lands on the doorstep, actually what you see is the benefit of potentially that person's family also seeing it and that can be really useful. Because it could be that actually I think there's nothing out there to support me or I can't remember what's out there to support me, but my husband might go, well, do you remember that thing that got put in the post the other day, or even last year? I'm sure there was something in there. Have a look at it. So, there's real power, I think, in using different communication methods, to build people's awareness of the tools that are out there.
Angus: I've got a personal question for you, Tara.
Tara: Yeah.
Angus: One thing that I've heard a [00:36:00] lot is people saying they don't know what to say to somebody who has got cancer. Yeah. And I've heard people with cancer saying, somebody I knew walked across the road rather than what come and speak to me. Things like this. Yeah. What advice would you give to somebody who doesn't know what to say?
Tara: So I think in some ways it probably goes right the way back to that conversation we had about my first early days of work at Unilever, and that was about remembering that we're all human. So I think remembering that we're all human is really important. I would say in terms of what to say, I think just reaching out and saying "I'm thinking of you", is really powerful. I said earlier, the amount of love that I felt was incredible. Some people don't choose to to share their diagnosis. other people do. I chose to share it and I still have a pile of letters and cards and things that people have sent me,
and it's the most incredible feeling of being loved. And so whatever you can [00:37:00] do to show that person that you love them, that you are thinking of them, and also not to forget. I get it, everybody's got their lives and they're dealing with lots of things themselves, but interestingly, I posted something recently about the amount of medication that I'm still on and I had a couple of friends reach out saying, oh goodness Tara are you okay? Like, has it come back? Because they just had no idea, they thought the cancer was like over there and it was all done. And I was like, no, this is just life. This is life now. So I would say, make sure they know that you care about them, that you love them. Check in with them on a daily basis, not a daily basis. I mean, asking how are you today? rather than just, how are you? Same, kind of thing that you would do when someone's grieving, I suppose, is just focusing in on how that person is that day. And then yeah, continuing that support, remembering that when they finish treatment, they might well be feeling at their worst.
Angus: I also think, don't be scared. Just say, I'm sorry you're not well. Yeah. You know, I've [00:38:00] used that myself where I haven't known what to say, so I've just said I'm sorry you're not well, if I can help you let me know.
Tara: Really important to do.
Amy: Really important. Yeah. Karen Monaghan's post here says, she's also pointing out, thank you, Karen, the importance of that education piece around our mental wellbeing, that the impact of a cancer diagnosis has. You've talked about getting the comms out there and stuff, what do you think is needed in terms of the education piece?
Tara: I would love to see that on the NHS, that there's an automatic referral for mental health support when someone's diagnosed with cancer. So I was advocating for myself. I had enough awareness and experience to know that it was something that I needed and I had my insurance company who were happy to support it and, and pay for it. If I had been somebody going through this on the NHS, perhaps with no experience of poor mental health or no experience of counseling or anything like that, I maybe wouldn't have asked, and wouldn't have thought to [00:39:00] ask. And actually I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but when you look at some of the statistics and the research, the mental health impact of cancer is huge and is fairly universal. So,having something in place, and then on the organization side, because we know the stress that the NHS is under and that's not necessarily something that I can just click my fingers and make happen. I think on the organization side, offering that support, so as well as, okay, here's your company sick pay, this is what we can do around your role. Perhaps a part of that kind of package of support from your employer could also be mental health support.
Angus: Good. We have a comment here from Cora. She's just saying that you're so lucky to have such a supportive management team, sometimes businesses are all mouth, with no actual backing.
Tara: Yeah. Yeah. And I am so grateful for the experience that I had, and I would also say there are lots of employers who, have good [00:40:00] intent, but maybe are not getting it right. So if I think back to a PepsiCo or a Unilever, if I had been diagnosed when I was working for them, their intent would absolutely be positive and supportive, but it would have been seen, like I said, as this kind of acute event. And it would've been, okay, you've got great sick pay, you can take as much time off as you need, we'll pay you, you've got maybe private healthcare, all of those kind of things, which are great, but I don't think I would've had the flexibility. I don't think I would've been able to feel that sense of, belonging and value that was so important to me by working during my treatment. I'm not sure big companies are set up to be as flexible as that. So it's not the size of the business, necessarily, it's sometimes just thinking about it beyond policy and beyond big gestures and thinking about the individual.
Amy: One more swift question for you, Tara from Ashley De Fries
She says, what advice would you give when people's [00:41:00] staring can get too much? I used to struggle with that during active treatment, and it used to make me anxious.
Thank you for sharing that.
Tara: Thank you. Really tough. Really tough. I think particularly like the big one is your hair loss right? And, it's taken me a long time to stop explaining my short hair as I had cancer and owning it as this is a choice and this is how I want to be from now on. When I had no hair, and looked very much like a cancer patient, I found it really difficult to be out and about and particularly, I'd wear a hat if I was cold and go into, say, a shop, and I found the hardest thing in the world was taking that hat off when I was hot because I felt like I was going TADA world, look at me,
I've got cancer, I've got no hair. So dealing with that staring I can completely empathize is, is really difficult. I think you just have to deal with it with compassion for the individual that is staring. So you're almost thinking, okay, they're not [00:42:00] meaning any harm to me. If you don't know them, then I'm not sure there's much good in kind of being a bit aggressive or confrontational about it. I think you've just gotta think, actually, they're just not used to seeing somebody who looks like this, but wish them well andthey don't know what to say. So I get that that's a lot easier said than done though, and it's, it's a tough one that I don't have a kind of magic answer for how to deal with.
Amy: Yeah, but you know, when you're showing kindness to others, you're also showing it to yourself. So it's benefiting everyone, isn't it? Thank you everyone for putting in thoughts and comments in the chat. I'm aware we haven't got through all of them, so there's stuff to read there if you want to take a look at that either now or towards the end.
We'll just have a look now go through your top tips, Tara. So your first one is be led by the employee. Ask questions before you make decisions.
Tara: Absolutely. So,as I said with my boss, if he had come to me and said, right, I've decided that I'm gonna change your role and we're gonna take that person off you, [00:43:00] I would've felt quite disempowered and I would've felt quite annoyed to be honest. So if you have ideas on how to support the employees, fantastic, but check in with them
Amy: and be open-minded. No two cancers, treatment pathways or people are the same. I think that says it all, doesn't it? Be as flexible as you can. Be open to ways that work could play a part in their journey.
Tara: Yeah, definitely. And the one thing that I haven't said that I think is really important is the benefit for the business of having someone who's going through treatment and wants to do some work is the type of work that you can give them. So you can't necessarily give them the urgent work with deadlines, you don't know when they're gonna be feeling okay.
What I ended up doing was the important work that wasn't urgent. That's often at the bottom of people's to-do lists and you can't get to. So from a, a business case for doing this, I think there is real benefit in the type of work that somebody can do during treatment.
Amy: Yeah, that's a really [00:44:00] valuable insight. Thanks, Tara, and be informed, build your awareness and knowledge of resources available.
Tara: Yep! Absolutely. I think there's lots out there, it's something that I'm really keen to work on, if I can give myself a little plug here, and, very, very keen to work with businesses to build their awareness, and on how to do this, it's, it's definitely needed.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's what you've set up Onward with You to focus on, isn't it? So that's really fantastic, Tara. We just have time for, one or two quickfire questions.
So quickfire question, quickfire answer. Here we go. What does vulnerability mean to you, Tara?
Tara: Being true to yourself.
Amy: What little thing do you notice? Zooming to celebrate every day.
Tara: Bird Song at the moment.
Amy: What message would you give your younger self?
Tara: Oh God. you don't have to rush.
Amy: Lovely. And what [00:45:00] message would your younger self
give you?
Tara: Hmm. You don't have to rush.
Amy: Excellent. What do you say to leaders that use only plasters, give lip service to workplace mental health and wellbeing.
Tara: I think often the, the thing you can say that kind of hits them where it matters is, how would you like to be treated or how would you like your best friend, your child, your partner, to be treated at work? I.
Amy: Nice one, Tara. Fantastic. I'm gonna hand you over to Angus.
Tara: Thank you, Amy.
Angus: Ah, really
there's, there's some times that I find this quite a difficult thing to do, and I find this quite a difficult thing to do. That was incredibly frank. It was very honest, very open and brave. It was very moving and insightful. You've demonstrated that you're [00:46:00] truly authentic. And being truly yourself. It was an inspiring message of hope and I'd really like to thank you for joining us on the Wellbeing Hour.
Thank you.
Tara: Thank you Angus and Amy. It has been my pleasure.
Angus: That was really, really, really good. So thank you, Tara. I think we've all got, you know, some kind of personal experience here and, to hear, hear your voice and way you put it over like that, is very moving actually, thank you.
Tara: Thank you.
Angus: Okay, so the next wellbeing hour. We have Geoff McDonald.
Geoff is a longtime friend of Headtorch and, the first time we spoke to him actually, he'd just been to number 10 Downing Street to talk about mental health, and that was around about 10 years ago. He flies with the Eagles does our geoff.
He's a [00:47:00] global advocate for speaking on workplace mental health. He's a senior advisor to us at Headtorch he was a global Vice president of HR at Unilever, and he's going to be controversial, so he's talking about workplace wellbeing, a waste of time and effort. So we welcome you all to come and join in that.
I think it's going to be. A really interesting one and, I think controversial. We ask for your questions, have a think about it, and, come along with your thoughts. That's 15th of May, same time. And,
you'll see the communication going out on that. That is almost it for the wellbeing here today. We would love to hear from you about what you are doing with workplace mental health. We have tailored solutions for senior leaders, people, managers, direct and indirect staff. You can contact us there, they're my details. Also there is a free consultation if you scan that code.
So [00:48:00] thank you very, very much for joining us. It's always a pleasure. It is always an honor to run the Wellbeing Hour.
And that is it from us today. Thank you.
Amy: Thank you everybody.
Thanks for listening to the Wellbeing Hour. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. These events take place regularly. So do join us for more. And if your organization would like to develop a mentally healthy culture, we'd be happy to work with your senior team people, managers, and frontline staff. Please get in touch@headtorch.org.
We look forward to hearing from you.
